Episode 4

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
We're just two weeks away from theNFL Draft, and if you believe the
rumors, we may be in fora lot of trades this year. Chuck
and I discussed the latest noise fromaround the league, examine this year's linebacker
class and take our shots of whatthe Seahawks will do. Let's light them
up. I'm Jackson Bevans and I'mChuck Powell, and this is Whitewater Drafting.

(00:37):
Welcome back to Whitewater Drafting. Iam Jackson Bevans. Now I am
joined once again by my friend andfellow draft junkie Chuck Powell of Kjar Chuck,
how are we doing? Cigar thoughts? Chucking Buck in the Morning's coming
together. You know, at somethingin history, somebody had to run the
risk that peanut, butter and chocolatewhen combined would explode, and instead it

(00:58):
was a delicious combination. You can'tget anywhere without risk, and look what's
happened. Magic. Yeah, man, four episodes in Loving It Still no
lifefest, but yeah, no,like we might need to. We might
need to get those as we getclose to the draft, because I mean,
honestly, man, what are wefifteen days away? As the time
of recording, and I think it'llbe fourteen by the time everyone's listening to

(01:18):
this, So I mean it's it'sgo time. We saved the rafts for
when we put together our first studioalbum and then yeah, and then the
cover will be us and in Ourin Our in our rafts and our life
preservers. Nothing set gorgeous. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well,
look, man, there is alot to get to, like there
is every week this time of year. But before we do get into it,

(01:42):
I want to remind everyone listening theWhite Water Drafting is proud to be
sponsored by Seattle Cigar Concierge and BelvenySingle Malt Scotch Whiskey, two of my
very favorite companies out there. Thrilledto have them on board. Now,
Chuck luck Man, we we startat the top like we normally do with
quarters. It is still the mostimportant domino on the table. And last

(02:05):
week we talked about the ground swellbehind Michael PENNOCKX Junior's draft stock and this
week the name that I'm hearing themost outside of the consensus top guys,
Spencer Rattler. When you hear hisname, what comes to mind, What
comes to mind for me is somebodythat never truly impressed me at the collegiate
level. Now look, I meanhe was ahead of Caleb Williams at Oklahoma

(02:25):
and then we found out what asensation Caleb Williams was. So maybe he
didn't get the full, you know, length of the runway to show exactly
what he could do, and nodoubt getting unseated, you know, for
a young person that thought that youknow, had been called nothing but a
five star for his entire life.Who knows what that can do to the

(02:49):
psyche. But he gets to SouthCarolina and still puts up some good numbers.
So the fact that he was afive star recruit just kind of tells
you. I mean, he's gotthe he's got the upside, he's got
the athleticism, he's got the armstrength, and he's got the size to
suggest that he could endure in theNational Football League. I can't sit here

(03:09):
and tell you that I'm a SpencerRattler expert or I was a you know,
Gamecock loyalist during the course of thefootball season. But when I saw
him play, I was left alittle bit wanting and I do wonder how
he will translate to the National FootballLeague. He's got a career. I'm

(03:30):
not sure if he's the face ofthe franchise kind of guy for me.
Well, yeah, and especially toyour last point, I mean, you
know, Rattler famously has had togo through a humbling process. You know,
I don't know if you saw theNetflix special on prep quarterbacks, and
you know, Spencer Ratler was thenumber one recruit in the country, and

(03:51):
you know, some of that behindone of the greatest names ever. Oh
my gosh, you kidding me.I mean, a superstar name. I
mean, the logo is it's justit's built in. You got the s
already and the Rattler. I mean, it's just there's never been a name
better for twenty twenties marketing than SpencerRattler. But you know, they would
show some of that footage of himwith his teammates in high school and he

(04:13):
came off, you know, realpoor in that and then sounds like I
kind of took that cockiness with himto Oklahoma and at the first sign a
struggle, really they were like,well we got this other kid. I
think it was against Texas in thatbig game, you know, one of
the big rivalries and Caleb Williams camein and had like a seventy yard touchdown
run on the first drive or thesecond drive, and then that was it.

(04:34):
He got wally pipped. So hebounces out has South Carolina rocky first
year there, and then really putsit together the second half of last year,
not this past season, and therewas talk like, okay, you
know, maybe he's shown enough tocome out, and as the story goes,
he decided to stay in school tobecome an even better pro prospect.

(04:56):
I thought he played pretty well lastyear in the season opener went head to
head with North Carolina and was justfought out better than Drake may in that
game. I am not putting SpencerRatler ahead of Drake may or on the
same platform as far as the draftprospect as of right now, but I
think that we've seen enough. Likeone of the things I care about with
the prospect is how good was yourgood? And his good was very good.

(05:19):
I would just say this, Imean, I don't ever want to
come across in this podcast as youknow, being the guy that would be
in the war room analyzing film andwould make these decisions. But I've studied
this long enough that I do thinkI kind of have a grasp on philosophically

(05:41):
what I would want in a draftprocess, and then I will trust my
scouts, and so my scouts aregoing to be the NFL mock experts out
there, those that I've come totrust over the years. So I would
just say, from a philosophical standpoint, I don't care who you are as
a general manager, and I don'tcare who you draft. You better be
drafting something that you believe in.So if that's Spencer Rattler, then you

(06:08):
live and die with Spencer Rattler atthat point. But through the Seahawk lens,
I'm not interested in just adding anotherquarterback to the room. I can
do that any given year. IfI'm going to use a high pick,
then I have to see that guyas a franchise quarterback. Now, the

(06:30):
story about Russell Wilson famously is thatJohn Schneider truly adamantly believed in the third
round he was getting his future quarterbackand was surprised that it was an immediate
starter once he shined in camp.So you know, if that's who you
want, if you were identified him. Apparently he's meeting with the Seahawks and

(06:51):
you circle that and you want tocommit to him, and you want to
convince me that he's the face ofthe franchise. All right, then that's
on you. You're the general manager. You carry that. But I'm not
interested in just let's add him tothe competition. If you're going to take
a quarterback on day one, I'msure Rattler wouldn't go there. But even
if you traded down and took himin the second round, that's that's high

(07:13):
draft capital and you better believe thatthat guy is a franchise type quarterback who
very well could be or maybe willbe, the quarterback of your future.
I'm not hearing that when Spencer Rattleris described, it sounds to me like
a bit of a risky play.There's certainly some upside there, but there's
also a lot of risk and sothe risk reward factor And to take him,

(07:38):
you'll probably take him in round two, wouldn't you think, you know,
be convinced. Yeah, you betterbe convinced that he is your guy
if you're going to spend that highof a draft pick on him. And
I'm I'm just not there with himyet. You know, he reminds me
of a more physically gifted Gardner Minshew. He's the type of guy that I
don't think you're necessarily bringing into theyear starter, but can be. I

(08:01):
think he's got the tools that.Look, if you're a backup quarterback and
the NFL, chances are you're gonnastart. As the nature of it,
you're going to start at some point. Everyone's getting frickin hurt these days.
Injury racing quarterbacks are through the roof, despite the NFL's best efforts to keep
that from happening. And so youknow, Rattler is going to start some
games in the NFL. And thequestion is if he gets a three or

(08:24):
four game, look, is hegood enough to say, you know what,
Actually, we're gonna we're gonna stickwith that guy. And that's kind
of what Gardner Minshew has been.And so yeah, I see him as
a high upside backup to start.But again we talk about it every week.
There is so much, I mean, I'm I'm starting to believe too
much emphasis put on getting that quarterbackon the rookie contract. It's you know,

(08:48):
you start to miss the forest orthe trees a little bit, and
I think that's pushing him certainly intoDay two as far as the Seahawks go,
you know, and maybe as highas round two as far as the
Seahawks go. I think the sameHowell trade takes them out of it.
I mean, they don't currently havea second round pick. I can't imagine
that even if they end up withone through a draft day trade, they're
using it to add a third quarterbackto this room, especially one that's already

(09:11):
older than Sam Howell. And ifRatler's there at eighty one, I don't
expect them to have essentially used bothof the third round picks on quarterbacks.
So my question to you is,would you rather have Spencer Ratler or Sam
Howell? And for fun, I'mgonna throw bow NICKX into there too.
I'm you know, it's a hardquestion to answer, and here's why again,
I'm not sitting here wanting to breakthis down from like you know,

(09:37):
I can do it with the topguys, but from just a philosophical we're
committed to this Sam Howe situation.And I don't believe in Sam Howell.
As I said in a previous episode, he was sort of my whipping boy
one draft. Just don't trade draftSam Howell like we were hearing, and
it became almost comical more than itdid, you know, critical analysis.

(09:58):
But nonetheless, in my estimation,you're sort of committed to those two guys
for right now. So I'm withyou. I don't think that they're going
to be in the rattler business,but they are entertaining it. They brought
him in for a visit. Theybrought Bo Nicks in for a visit.
I mean, at this point,Jackson, do we even know what John

(10:18):
Schneider likes in a quarterback. Itseems to me he's either interested in Josh
Allen, Anthony Richardson types, guysthat can throw the ball one hundred yards
and run a you know, fourthree forty, or he's interested in the
Andy Dalton, Sam Howell. Youknow, football player. He's not a

(10:41):
quarterback. He's a football player,you know, the kind of quarterback that'll
get you know, dirty for you. Well, you know, when you
start evaluating this, it feels tome a little bit like bow Knicks could
be in play here. Or isJoe Milton from Tennessee in play because of
his infatuation with the big arm andthe tremendous upside. I don't even really

(11:05):
know what kind of quarterback. JohnSchneider is moved by but he seems to
be bringing in a bit one ofeach Rattler and also a bone Hicks here
here in this interviewing process. Andso I think at the end of the
day, I'm with you, Idon't think he's going to even draft a
quarterback this year, but he seemsto be all overboard in his interest level.

(11:30):
Yeah, and you know what he'sJohn Schneider has historically had visits with
quarterbacks, even when Russell Wilson waslocked in and all these things. So
yeah, I think I think he'she's kicking the tires and you know,
all all that stuff. It doesn'thurt, but yeah, I'd be stunned
to see this draft process. Youlisten, a third quarterback for the outside

(11:56):
of you know, maybe a seventhround pick, you know, if Michael
Pratt is still there, or theywant to take shots from Travis if he
slips because of the injury or somethinglike that. But I don't think they're
going to be I mean, theyjust don't after sixteen as of right now.
And we both think trading down isbecoming more and more likely for Seattle.
But at the end of the day, they don't have a second round

(12:18):
pick, they don't pick from betweensixteen and eighty one, and then after
that it's like, you got otherthings you need to address. So you
know, top of the draft,best player available, but once you get
past the top fifty seventy five picksin the draft, you do have to
address need. And I think that'show we're going to see Seattle play this.
I'll answer your question. I'd gobow Nicks. You know me,

(12:41):
now that I've given it a coupleseconds, thought I'd go bow Nicks on
this. And I'm speaking more fromjust a general NFL perspective as opposed to
ye I hears. But I wouldsay, like, if somebody invested a
first round pick in bow Nicks,I can buy that. I don't think
that I could that with Sam Howell, and I don't think I could buy
that with Spencer Rattler. But we'vetalked about this on a previous episode.

(13:05):
I think the quarterback position is becomingmore and more every day about can you
get the ball to where it needsto go to get the most yards on
the given play. And so Ithink bon Nix has some physical limitations which
you have mapped out on this verypodcast. I'm not sure if he is

(13:26):
one of those guys that you describedcan make all the throws, but I
do believe sixty plus starts at thecollegiate level, he knows how to read
a defense and get the ball whereit needs to be and get it there
accurately. I think there's room fora quarterback in today's game. I think

(13:46):
it's worth an investment of a highpick in today's game. If brock perty
Re entered the draft, I guaranteeyou that's not a seventh round selection.
So if bone Nicks is, youknow, reminding people of, hey,
what is the true goal here?Move the chains, get the ball in
the end zone. Also with somerunning ability and a feel for that as

(14:09):
well. I think this is actuallyan easy one for me to answer.
If somebody took bon Nicks, Ithink in the first round, I think
that could be justified. I don'tsee trading a first round pick for Sam
Howell, and I don't see usinga first round pick on Spencer Rattler.
So my answer is clearly Nick's finalanswer. Yeah, Yeah, I'm with

(14:30):
you. You know, I thinkthat you know, let's say it plays
out, and I don't think thiswill happen. But if it plays out
the Spencer Ratler is still on theboard at seventy eight and Seattle have Sam
Howell, I will be very slightly, very slightly disappointed that they have Howl
instead of Ratler. I would rathersee what Raler can do. The weird

(14:52):
thinking about a little bit like GenoSmith when you think about it, like
yeah, yeah, I think there'sa lot of that there. One of
the things that Spencer Ratler does reallyis like layer the ball against own coverage.
And last year we saw the NFLplay zone coverage almost seventy percent of
the time. So that ability tokind of throw the ball that gets over
the linebacker but under the safety,that gets over the corner, but you
know before the safety can get there, you know on the deep out that

(15:16):
those kind of throws are difficult.Those are the modern NFL throws. Spencer
Ratler does that very very well,more so than the other guys. But
you know, at the end ofthe day, I don't think it's a
huge deal and I would rather haveSam Howe. You know, I think
Spencer Ratler is going to go inthe second round, and I would rather
have Sam Howell in the third thanSpencer Ratler in the second. You know,

(15:39):
if Seattle would end up with thesecond round pick, threw a trade
down or something like that. Soanyway, that's that's kind of where I'm
at with that. Sounds like we'rea little bit in lockstep on that,
and who knows, you know.I mean one guy that we haven't talked
about at all. I mentioned himjust a minute ago. We haven't talked
about him in all because he doesn'thave a lot of juice right now.
But if Jordan Travis doesn't blow outhis knee and he finishes that undefeated season

(16:00):
for Florida State and they make theCollege Football Championship and he's able to go
through, you know, all ofthe postseason pre draft stuff that he's missing
out on, I think he's anotherguy that would be in this next tier.
And I think whoever drafts him late, because I do unfortunately thing's going
to go late. I think they'regoing to have themselves a good player.

(16:22):
I'm all for that. I'm allfor taking a chance late in the draft.
I mean, John Schneider has sortof bemoaned that he hasn't drafted enough
quarterbacks in his time with the SeattleSeahawks's. He was raised by Ron Wolf
in this business, and he wassomebody that would take a quarterback nearly every

(16:42):
draft. But he also had thegreatest quarterback coach, arguably in the history
of the NFL. So the theorybeing that, hey, we take a
quarterback, you coach him up,and I can flip him for a second
rounder, Well you just can't.You can't keep the good quarterback coaches anymore.
Look at Dave Canalis right like,he just gets out. Yeah.
So I think that was the theorybeing And so I think John kind of

(17:03):
wants to get back to that nowthat he's I don't know what percentage of
the show that he's he's gained overnot having Pete there, but I think
that he would like to add aquarterback. And I'm fine with that at
some point in the draft if you'rejust wanting to round out your room and
maybe roll the dice on a Travis, I think that's a great guy to

(17:25):
roll the dice on late in thedraft. But if you're not going sixteen,
if something doesn't fall to you atsixteen, I'm not really in the
let's take one in the second thethird round. Burning a pick there exactly.
I don't want to just round outmy room. I want some If
I'm going to take a quarterback high, he's got to be the guy that

(17:45):
I believe is the future of theposition for the Seattle Seahawks. And so
I don't know if I'm willing togo there with Rattler, But there are
guys in this draft I'm willing togo there with, especially if a Penix
would fall to sixteen. And I'mnot ruling myself out of considering Nicks,
although that probably makes a lot ofSeattleites ears bleed. Here's here's one scenario

(18:07):
that scares me as a Seahawks FN. What happens if McVeigh gets his hands
on Spencer Rattler in the second orthird round and he sits behind Stafford for
a year or two because he's gotall the game that if you say that
about any offensive player with mcay itwould be terrifying. It is, But
like I like, let's say theytook let's say the Rams took Nicks right

(18:30):
in the second running his slips andthey take him or or whatever maybe they
know, move back into the backof the first to take him. Something
like that. That Okay, yeah, high alert, but that doesn't scare
me as much. I think Nixis more ready to play in the NFL
right now than Ratler is. Butlike, if they hit their top five
percent outcome, I think Rattler's ishigher, and McVeagh would do that.

(18:53):
Mcveig would hit that top five percentoutcome, and I think that would be
a very scary thing. So Ithink the filter, it's a really great
filter to run a lot of sportsthings through. I talk about this.
We see this a lot of timesin baseball playoffs when a manager takes out
a starting pitcher because it's time togo to the reliever, and then you

(19:14):
hear afterwards the lineup is like,thank God, I don't care who you
bring in here. You can bringin you know, Jesus Christ, right
now, I don't want to facethat starting pitcher anymore. And so it's
a pretty good filter to run itthrough. Is when as you do this
analysis, you're like, Okay,I don't really want bo Nicks or I
don't really want Spencer Rattler, Buthow would I feel if the Rams or

(19:38):
forty nine ers or Cardinals took saidplayer, whoever that player might be.
Then you're going to get a truefeeling for how you evaluate your game player.
That's right, Yeah, I thinkit's really really important to you know,
look, look, whatever capital Ttruth looks like, it is a

(19:59):
white light on the the side ofthe prism, and whatever fast of the
prism we happen to be on thatside of that's the color that we're going
to see when that truth comes through. And so I think it's important to
try and work your way around thatprism and see these things through different lights
and see how they play themselves out. And quarterback is the position in football
where you can do that the most. And we've seen how much environment matters,

(20:22):
right, Like how much has TrevorLawrence's career arc been hurt by the
fact that they spent his first seventeengames with Urban Meyer, And so,
you know, these things matter.Who knows how different Bryce Young's career looks
or brock Perty's career looks, orwhomever, depending on where they go.
And it feels like Seattle is apretty steady situation, a pretty solid situation

(20:48):
with good offensive talent around it andhopefully good coaching, you know, for
whoever comes after Geno. I wouldpull one other thing into this particular episode
about this quarterback class, particularly becauseI don't think we'll ever see another one
like it. We've never seen onelike it to this date, and I
don't think it's being discussed enough.Quite frankly, we've never seen a more

(21:10):
experienced group of quarterbacks in the NFLenter the NFL Draft. We just went
through what I thought was And maybeI'm a little biased, because you know,
I'm hanging and hanging on every MichaelPennock's past this past year and what
an exciting season the Huskies had,sure, but I believe just overall,
it was the best year, thebest quality year of college football I've ever

(21:33):
seen in my entire life. AndI brought that up to Rick Neuheisel,
who's a weekly guest on the radioshow during the football season, and I
asked him, you know, doyou have anything to explain that, and
he said, it was the COVIDyears. It was. We have quarterbacks
who are you know, several quarterbackswho are twenty three, twenty four year
old men who have four to sixyears in college football, and so we're

(21:59):
seeing the best quarterback play we've everseen in the history of college football.
Well, now the NFL Draft forthis year and a little bit next year.
But this isn't gonna this isn't gonnalast. We're going to see in
this year's NFL draft guys that areready to hit the ground running. And
Spencer Rattler's a little bit in thatother category, you know, JJ McCarthy's

(22:23):
a little bit in that other category, like how good could they possibly become?
But there are a lot of guysin this draft that, if that
are probably ready to take over anNFL franchise. Pennix, Nicks, Daniels,
Caleb Williams isn't the older type,but you know he's the number one

(22:44):
overall. I mean, he's right, right, He's just different. Yeah,
But I just I think from thatstandpoint, I mean, we've had
a lot of arguments on the morningabout how many quarterbacks are going to go
early, and I have six goingin first twelve. I'm in that camp
all those that keep pushing them up, I'm in that camp. And there

(23:06):
are two reasons, and one isbecause of what I just mentioned, that
factor about how much more experience thesequarterbacks have than past quarterbacks in any draft.
I mean, we had to drafta few years ago where five were
taken in the top fifteen. Onlyone of them is worked out, and
that's Trevor Lawrence. But those wereall guys that had three four years of

(23:26):
college experience. You've got a prettygood idea as to what these guys can
do right off the bat for youa few of these guys in this draft.
The other thing is the teams withthe greatest quarterback needs, believe it
or not, are sitting between elevenand fourteen. It's crazy, not just
one five, that's right. Yeah, one through five is usually where you

(23:51):
find the quarterback needs. Now you'regonna probably see three quarterbacks come off the
board in the first three picks becauseof the theory, when are we There's
a chance we might not be thishigh again, So we got to get
the franchise quarterback now. But thenthat leaves Appennix, that leaves a McCarthy
potentially, or a may One orthe other that leaves the Knicks, and

(24:12):
then you still have this block ofteams. The Jets have the tenth pick.
I mean, Aaron Rodgers's got tobe vice president at some point,
so you know, hit there attenth. Then you got the Vikings who
have Sam Darnold and that's it rightnow. The Broncos have Jared Stidham and
that's it right now. The Raidersat thirteen have Gardner Minshew and Aidan O'Connell

(24:37):
at that point, and the NewOrleans Saints have Derek Carr, who locked
themselves into Yeah. So this islike this draft. You know, everybody
that thinks we're overblowing the quarterbacks rightnow, ten through fourteen is the greatest
quarterback need group in the entire draft. And so I think I don't think

(25:00):
those six guys get past the Raidersat thirteen. And I have a feeling
that some of a couple of thoseteams, like the Vikings and Raiders,
are so desperate for a quarterback rightnow they might not have any choice to
move up. So from that standpoint, I just think I thought it was
worth mentioning the experience factor that thisquarterback class is going to be uniquely remembered

(25:22):
for, and the fact that howmany teams need quarterbacks in the ten to
fifteen range I think could shake upa lot that we see on Draft Day.
It really can, man, Imean, what amazing year to be
picking fourth and fifth and already haveyour quarterback locked in Like, you don't
see a lot of Kyler Murray levelquarterback teams picking forth. You certainly don't

(25:48):
see a lot of Justin Herbert hquality quarterbacked teams picking number five. These
guys are in unbelievable positions. Doyou think I would feel at that?
But Jack and they on the otherside of it, there are a lot
of people. I mean, Ijust woke up this morning to mel Kiper
saying Bonix and Michael Pennix are secondround draft picks. So there's a huge
camp. I think like half peoplethink that they're still not going to be

(26:12):
the rush to get quarterbacks, andthey think it's overdone and over hyped.
Right now, I agree. Ithink JJ McCarthy is is the one that's
going to force a trade somewhere inthe top five. I think, I
think JJ. I don't. Idon't think a team's going to sit back
and hope JJ McCarthy falls to them. And to me, that's well,
okay, perfectly. And this lastthing I want to talk about with with

(26:33):
quarterbacks before we move on here isof all the quarterbacks, we spent a
lot of today so far talking aboutthe second third tier, which is great
because so much ink has been spilledon the top three four guys, But
now zooming out and looking at theentire quarterback class, who's the one guy
you're most afraid you're going to bewrong on? Either that you you find

(26:56):
out two years Surni' like I wasjust way too high on this or I
was way too low on this guy. Well, it's got to be panix
like in terms of my credibility becauseof how many conversations we've had on this
podcast and then on my radio showwhere I can't understand how there's a gap

(27:17):
between he and Daniels. Like Isaid before, if you want to rate
Daniels ahead, I can buy that, but how could there be a monstrous
gap? And it feels like that'sclosed through this draft process. I'm also
somebody that for whatever reason, washigh on Jacob Eason at one point and
got burned by that. So I'maware that maybe the guy that I've seen

(27:38):
the most, I'm a little I'venever been a homer. I've never carried
that kind of bias. Oh yeah, but you want to certainly do get
yeah, but you so certainly doget colored by who you surround yourself with.
And who you're who you've evaluated themost, you either end up being
too critical of that person or youend up being mounting too much praise on

(28:00):
that person. So Pennix is certainlythe guy that for me, that I'm
going most out on the limb for. I think he should be a top
ten pick in this NFL draft.And it literally I have like a physical
revulsion when I see somebody say he'sa second rounder, like you know,
I want to or am like inthe thorax or something like that. Yeah,

(28:23):
I think for me it's JJ McCarthy. I am not someone that would
trade three first round picks go gethim. But what if he's just Brock
Party with a lot more tools andcame out to three years younger, you
know what I mean? I mean, like, say what you want about
how little he had to do incollege. He was still coached by Jim

(28:45):
Harbaugh, and Jim Harbaugh was anNFL quarterback who ran essentially a version of
the offensive scheme that was very successfulin the NFL with San Francisco, and
his quarterbacks have always performed from AndrewLuck of course, Yeah, all right,
you got a generational talent there,sure, But Andrew Luck was fricking

(29:07):
awesome in college. Jim Harbaugh gotthe most out of him. Jim Harbaugh
got the most out of Alex Smith, he got the most out of Colin
Kaepernick, right, he got themost out of JJ McCarthy. And I'm
just not there. I have triedto be there because I was wrong about
Justin Herbert. I did not thinkJustin Herbert was going to be that guy.
And I'm pretty sure Justin Herbert's thatguy. I'm not. Mcarthy doesn't

(29:30):
have those tools. But if hegoes to Minnesota and he gets Kevin O'Connell
and he is Justin Jefferson and JordanAddison and TJ. Hockinson to start his
career, man, I could belike, I really whipped on that.
So he's the guy. I'm afraidI'm going to be wrong on the most
in the other way because you andI are both Pennix guys. I think

(29:52):
Pennox is going to be a goodpro, and if he's not, I'll
eat it. But I think Icould be way way off on McCarthy.
Well, before you're too hard onyourself. That's one of the things about
this. It's crazy how we dobrackets every year in college basketball, even
if you've only watched like a halfof a half of one college basketball game

(30:15):
and then suddenly Monday morning, everybodytries to play themselves off as experts.
We follow this stuff a lot moreclosely. And yet, you know,
you know, before you feel bad, like, hey, you know,
should we weigh in on this stuff. We don't have all the information that
general managers have. Well we're nottrying to argue that we do, but

(30:38):
the truth of the matter is thatthese guys still have all these general managers,
they still have this, you know, and it's it has plugged them
throughout the history of drafts. Idon't care what sport it is. They
still have this image of they'll seea guy that went to Michigan and he's

(31:00):
skinny and kind of cute and hadsome success in college I know, yeah,
and they're convinced like that's the nextTom Brady. Right. I mean,
that's not talk show hosts saying thatthat's not mock draft experts or podcasters.
That's general managers of football teams thatplay that game well. And you
got to remember just how much pressureis on these guys to get it right.

(31:22):
And so yeah, you're going torevert to some comfort zones. Well,
but that's why they said said itearly. You just got to own
who you are, own your picks. It's your career that's on the line,
and so you've got to go withwhat you believe in and what your
gut tells you and what your evaluationstell you. But it doesn't stop them
from playing this. He reminds meof him. Do you know how hard

(31:45):
that stuff is to duplicate? Imean, I you, neither of you
are old enough. But when MagicJohnson, nobody had ever seen a six
nine point guard before nobody, Imean it was unheard of and never thought
that they would see a sixth nineinch point guard. Next thing, you
know, everybody's trying to draft asix foot nine inch point guard. It's

(32:06):
like, no, he's just different, just different. He's just special.
And you're wasting picks on six footeight inch power forwards and trying to turn
them into point guards. And sothis is something that generally, so you
know, people you can say whatyou want, like John rolls his eyes

(32:28):
when he hears you know, peoplelike myself, you know, breaking down
the NFL draft. Well, guesswhat I roll my eyes when these guys
try to try to just play well, you know what, He's cute,
and he wear's a Michigan helmet,and it's hard not to helmet. It
is really difficult not to help.He's got that physically gifted he must be

(32:50):
Tom Brady, that's right. Sothey play this game and they make mistakes
like that all the time, Jackson. So maybe you're right. Maybe you're
right. Maybe you're going to beway off on him, but maybe you're
onto something. And maybe it's theseNFL teams who are way too desperate to
try to hit the Grand Slam,trying to find the next Tom Brady and
are missing out on some of theirevaluation of a flawed young quarterback. Hey

(33:14):
man, we all have lenses thatwe see the world through, and we
just you know, to your point, man, you just got to be
honest about what your lens is.You need to understand. Okay, these
are the things that I prioritize inthis position. It could be the tangible
stuff, you know, like yousee with an Anthony Richardson or or a
Jalen Hertzer. It could be youknow, the intent not to say,

(33:34):
those guys don't have intangibles, butwhere it could be the intangible stuff.
You know, I want to findthe next Rock Party or the next Tom
Brady or whatever. So yeah,it'll be fascinating to see and look through
the first almost month of us doingthe show, we've taken good looks obviously
at the qbs. We've looked atthe running backs, the offensive and defensive
lines in this draft class. Butafter a tumultuous free agency that saw Seattle

(33:55):
let Jordan Brooks and Bobby Wagner walkoff well, linebacker remains a significant position
to need for the Seahawks, andlast week we kind of rolled the pass
rushing linebackers into the D line.So today we're going to focus on these
guys that are behind the defensive line, that are patrolling the middle of the
field, and in a way,they've kind of become the running backs of

(34:16):
the defense in terms of how theNFL looks at them. They're less likely
to get drafted super high overall,they're not as likely to get a massive
contract, but it doesn't diminish howimportant these guys are in the middle of
that defense. And for all ofthe love some of the other positions are
getting in the draft. They're goodplayers to be had here. And I'm

(34:37):
looking at this class and in yearspast when priorities were different in the NFL,
there's a few players here that Ithink would have been first round picks.
I'm not sure we're going to seean off ball linebacker go in the
first round, but that's okay becauseI think Seattle is going to have a
shot at some of these guys withtheir second or third picks. And the
ones that stand out to me areEdgar and Cooper out of Texas A and
m Junior Colson from Michigan. Yeah, Jeremiah Trotter out of Clemson, Peyton

(35:01):
Wilson North Carolina State, and thenTommy Eikenberg out of Ohio State. Those
are the ones to me that seemlike, you know, immediate either needle
movers or contributors. Is there anyonein this draft class that you're like,
man, I feel like this isthe guy. And to kind of give
context to that question, what doyou prioritize in an off ball linebacker?

(35:23):
Like, what is the most importantskill set in your mind for that position?
I think it's it's instinct, wisdom, speed, and then sure tackling
ability and maybe maybe I shouldn't allexcommunicate speed out of there, because we've
seen plenty of off ball linebackers havehad Hall of Fame careers, and it's

(35:46):
because of their ability to instinct andfinish place, knowing where to be and
being there ahead of the blocker.Zach Thomas comes to mind. I mean,
he was short and slow for theMiami Dolphins, and he's a Hall
of Famer right now. Bobby Wagnerdoes not fit into that category, nor
did Jordan Brooks. Those were twoguys that that certainly you know, were

(36:09):
fast, I mean extraordinarily fast fortheir positions. So I mean, there's
one of those guys out of thatgroup, and you and you listed the
you know, at least the topfour in my book, you know in
your first four that you rattled off. But there's one that particularly stands out
to me, and that's Peyton Wilsonfrom North Toxlina State. Uh. And

(36:32):
the reason being, I a fewyears ago, and I'm not comparing these
two. They're completely different players,but they're going through the same draft process.
There was a player out of pitby the name of Aaron Donald,
and Aaron Donald was the best footballplayer in college football that year. He
was the best player, but hewas six foot tall and he was under

(36:58):
three hundred pounds, and people werequestioning, you know, what kind of
transition. Is he going to betoo small? Is he going to get
bullied at the National Football League level? These were sort of the conversations they
were having. Then he shows upat the combine and he puts together the
best workout of anyone there. Hewas strong, he was faster than everybody
else at the position. He wasquicker than everybody else at the position.

(37:22):
And then you combine those two things, Jackson, like, your film tells
me you were the best defensive playerin college football, and your combine tells
me you're the most athletic at yourposition. Yeah. Man, And yet
he still did not climb. Imean yes, he still ended up tenth
overall. He should have been,as we now know, the number one,

(37:44):
number two pick in the draft thatyear, and we knew it almost
immediately once he started playing at theNational Football League level. Now, these
are two completely different players, andan off ball linebacker does not impact the
game as somebody like Donald is rightthere at the line his scrimmage. But
I would just say Peyton Wilson wasarguably the best defensive player in college football

(38:06):
this year, and then he wentout there. He won the Chuck Bendenerrick
Award as the best defensive player incollege football. He won the Defensive Heisman
this year, and he ran afour four to three for that's a that's
wide receiver speed, and yet he'splaying almost a perfect version of linebacker at

(38:28):
the collegiate level. So for me, man, I just I mean,
he's had some injury stuff and he'sone of the older players in the draft,
but I think that this is adefinite area of need for the Seahawks.
I realized they signed Baker and theyhave Dotson that they added, But
to me, this is an areaof need circled with value if you move

(38:51):
back into the second round and youcan get him into the second round.
So Peyton Wilson is one that tome, I can just see him in
a Seahawks uniform, and I thinkhe's ready to make an immediate impact on
the National Football League level. Man, I am so glad he is the
guy that you circled out of thatgroup. Listen to these stats from twenty
twenty three, because at the endof the day, one of the most
predictive measures of NFL success is collegiate'ssuccess. Right. We can get caught

(39:16):
up in all of these other things, but at some point, like if
you produce at the high level ofcollege football and NC State qualifies for that,
it's a good indicator that you gota good shot at producing the NFL
level. Listen to this guy intwenty twenty three, one hundred and thirty
eight tackles, seventeen and a halftackles for loss, right, almost one
and a half per game. Hehad six sacks, he had three interceptions.

(39:38):
He was the acc Defensive Player ofthe Year, and he won the
Chuck Bennerck Award and the Dick BucketsAward in twenty twenty three. So best
linebacker, best overall defensive player.And it's one of those things where it's
like it's like a running back winningthe Heisman, where like, Okay,
yeah, you were the best playerin college football, but you're in a
position that the NFL just doesn't appreciateon that level, and so you're gonna

(40:00):
end up slipping. Here's a guythat you know is either the best defensive
player in college football last year orone of them, and he's gonna go
mid late second probably that's where mostprojections have them. And so it's I
feel like there's whoever drafts this guy, if they use him right, is
getting huge market inefficiency because I thinkthat we've seen as Seahawks fans over the

(40:23):
last fifteen years, what a hugeimpact a weaponized off ball linebacker can have.
I mean, I'm not taking himsixteenth, No, oh, Heaven's
no, no, no, no, so because I believe in that they're
you know, positional priority and positionalvalue. I'm not. You know,
there's not a running back in thisdraft I'm taking in the first round.

(40:44):
There's not an inside linebacker I'm takingin the first round. But if I
can, if I can take thatsixteenth pick, and I can move down
and I can have a late firstrounder and then pick up a second rounder,
or like I've discussed on previous episodes, I get both the Commanders two
picks in the second round at thetop of the second round. Then I'll
use one of those on Peyton Wilson, and I think he's a Day one

(41:07):
starter for this team, whether theyadded Baker and Dodson or not. Yeah.
I mean that's the thing is theybrought in Tyrrell Dodson. They brought
in Jerome Baker. These are twoyou know, kind of analytic darling linebackers.
I think, Mike correct me ifI'm wrong. I think they're both
on one year contracts, and soit's like these guys fill the gap.

(41:30):
And one thing just zooming out talkingabout Seattle's defense with Mike McDonald outside of
Lennon Williams and Devin Witherspoon, itkind of feels like everybody on this defense
is on a one year contract rightnow. They're all they're all compete,
they're all trying out for twenty twentyfive this year. And that's the case
with these two off ball linebackers thatthey brought in. But if you're going

(41:51):
to draft somebody on day two,that's a four year commitment to this guy
at least three, right, Andso you are looking for someone who can
be more of an anchor as opposedto a stopgap, and he seems like
a guy who can really do.Another guy that I really like is Edrin
Cooper out of Texas A and M. And he's someone that's been really screaming

(42:12):
up kind of draft boards and mockdrafts and all that. You know,
I think that Peyton would be talkedabout going a lot higher if he didn't
have the injury history that he does. But with Edderan Cooper, I mean
you are seeing someone that is notquite as athletic, but very, very,
very productive and plays with a tonof instincts and right now is projected

(42:38):
to go higher than Peyton Wilson.So he's another guy that I'm keeping an
eye on. And in the waythat he plays, the instincts with which
he plays, I think are goingto be really attractive to a GM that
has had Bobby Wagner for twelve years. And I would add to that,
I'm glad you brought up that BobbyWagner because that's exactly where I would go

(43:01):
here in Seattle. I mean,we've had the opportunity to see how the
position is played. Yeah, Imean, okay, maybe Bobby Wagner wasn't
Bobby Wagner anymore. You know thathappens age age is undefeated. But when
for ten years you got to seethe perfect interior linebacker, so we know

(43:27):
what that looks like here Insurance metyeah and what and so to me,
this is what Wilson sort of someof the elements that it brings to the
table because you have to be aggressive, but you can't be over aggressive because
then you put yourself out of position. You know, you've got to be
fast, but your brain's got towork. That was just an added attribute

(43:52):
to Bobby Wagner this, you know, the speed by which his mind worked,
you know, being in the rightposition almost at all all times.
Being able to cover and to tackle, you know, like the two elements.
That's what you do as a defender. You cover and you tackle,
and he was excellent at both ofthose things. Cooper, from what I

(44:13):
hear, is extremely aggressive, amajor thumper, and everybody loves that in
a defender. And yet you canbe over aggressive at this position and you
can take yourself out of a playand just blow up the entire thing for
the entire defense. And this iswhere Mike McDonald is becomes the wild card

(44:35):
in this whole thing, because EedrianCooper had ten sacks as a middle linebacker,
Like that's crazy. But if youwatch any Baltimore Ravens last year,
and the Seahawks got their fill ofthe Baltimore Ravens defense last year. But
that Christmas game against the forty nineers where he had Kyle Shanahan and hell
right, like he is going tobring pressure from every single direction. You

(44:58):
heard Geno Smith today in his youknow, a number of players spoke to
the media today and Gino Smith talkedabout one of the things Mike McDonald wants
the offense to feel like when hisdefense on the fields, that there's thirteen
guys on the field, and heMcDonald's talked about, I want every single
player on my defense to be ableto rush the passer. So if that's

(45:21):
something that you're prioritizing. A guywith double digit sacks, first team All
SEC, this isn't first team AllMAC, This isn't first team All Big
Sky, first team All SEC linebacker, double digit sacks from off ball,
he's not rushing off the edge aguy to imagine that there's something alluring there
about a player who plays that way. Yeah, and let's talk about Patrick

(45:43):
Queen, you know, and whatwe can read into Patrick Queen. Patrick
Queen was considered a bust before MikeMcDonald got to bolt exactly right. And
then he becomes a pro bowler,and then he becomes a free agent and
he's not going for as much aswhat people thought that he was going to

(46:04):
go for, and that seemed oddto people. And then he doesn't go
to Seattle, even though the valueof him seemed doable. It was a
lot he made. He earned abig contract, but it wasn't as much
as what people the sticker price.It was less than the sticker price on
the window. Yeah, yeah,And so what else do we read into
that? We we could read wecould read into that Mike McDonald's like,

(46:29):
I can make another one of those. Yeah, you know right, I
love him, but I made him. I'll make another, and we can
get one a lot cheaper than that. And what happened then in this sequence,
we just heard a couple of weeksago that there weren't many teams that
interested in Patrick Queen because he wasn'tcoming with Mike McDonald. So I don't

(46:52):
know based off of that, howmuch we and you would invest in an
inside linebacker Mike McDonald's system if hebelieves I can turn just I can turn
somebody into a great linebacker in myscheme. So maybe we're both being a
little too aggressive to be talking aboutthe top inside linebackers in this draft.

(47:15):
Maybe that's not anything Mike McDonald's interestedin Maybe he wants the project. This
is an area, John where youcan save some money and rely on my
coaching to make you a good offball linebacker. But because we haven't seen
Mike McDonald do that here in Seattle, I kind of want to marry the
two. I want to give youthe guy with the best skill and the

(47:37):
best attributes. What can you dowith him? Because we're kind of used
to having great interior linebackers here inthis city. Yeah, we sure are.
And you know, I mean goback lofit to Tupu, you know.
Yeah, it's like, you know, there there is a heritage in
Seattle for that position. I don'tknow how much Mike McDonald gives a shit

(47:59):
about that or not, but youknow, I'm a little Yeah, I
would like to think, Yeah,let's marry you know, the best players
at the position. If you canget them, you feel out of discount
in round two or whatever. Butif they decide to wait, there's one
other player that I'm really really curiousabout and that I think could work,

(48:20):
especially if McDonald decides that what he'sgoing to prioritize is past coverage from his
linebackers. Something that Seattle has reallyreally struggled with over the last half decade.
And his player named Jeremiah Trotter Junior. And if the name sounds familiar,
it's because his dad played twelve yearsin the NFL. He was a
two time All Pro linebacker with thePhiladelphia Eagles. You know, the lineage

(48:42):
is strong in this This is aguy who very clearly understands what it's like
to be a pro and from myunderstanding, is considered the best coverage linebacker
in this draft, but someone that'sprobably going to go later. He played
at Clemson and you know, Imean it's not that he can't rush the
past or he had six acts lastyear, but this is someone that can
run with anyone in the passing game. And it's going to be really really

(49:07):
interesting to see if that's something thatyou know, maybe if they do end
up with a second round pick becauseof a trade back, or you know,
if there's a guy at eighty oneand maybe the two guys that we
just talked about are off the board. This is another guy that I that
I could see because when you lookat the profile of the two linebackers they
sign in free agency, Dodson andBaker. These are coverage linebackers. These

(49:29):
are not blitzing linebackers. And sodoes that say that this is what Mike
McDonald is prioritizing at that position,or is he saying, Look, I'm
gonna cover my bases with cheap freeagents here and then I'm gonna draft someone
that can actually blitz. So Trotterfeels like a guy that could potentially do
both. But it seems that wherehe really shines his instincts in the passing

(49:50):
game. Uh yeah, and justjust overall. I mean, I think
he was taught well by Dad andthen others along the way, but he
also has a natural from what I'veread the book on him is just a
natural instinct. So instinct and knowledgethat combination, those are the two things
you're wanting, right And so asmuch as you'd like to coach somebody up

(50:10):
to the highest level, I wouldassume it's even better to have somebody that's
already there. But that's sort ofthe book on Trotter. He's a little
bit undersized compared to the other guys, and so that's always a concern in
the physical National Football League, Buthe seems to be the one that gets
most credit for understanding the position,how to play it, and constantly being

(50:35):
in the right place at the righttime. And then the other guy that
you brought up is Junior Colson outof Michigan, and he's an interesting study
as well. And from what Iunderstand about him, it's he's more of
one of those cerebral, measured typesand not really the guy that plays off
of instinct and aggression. He's moreof the cerebral I'll be there. I'll

(51:01):
be there to stop the play,but not necessarily blow up the play like
Wagner did early in his career.But again, the Michigan connection with McDonald
and Colson is there. He's gota great background story as well. I
really could see them taking any oneof these four guys that we've mentioned now,
whether that's in the second round ormaybe you wait till the third and

(51:23):
you get one of them with youreighty first overall selection. I think this
is an area of need, andif they come away with any of the
four guys that we've brought up,I think that's a good pick for the
Seahawks. A quick note on JuniorColson. His true freshman year was the
year that Mike McDonald was at Michiganand he started seven games as an eighteen

(51:45):
year old in Mike McDonald's defense thathe had just installed. So yeah,
food for thought. Well, andI'm glad you sitsched that together because before
the show I was thinking, Iwas like, okay, when we get
to sear Colson, he is aMcDonald guy, and it slipped my mind.
So, Mike, I appreciate youcoming in with the with the pinch
hit single there. Yeah, it'sI think it's a double. That's okay,

(52:07):
all right, just speaking, Yeah, okay, yeah, you know,
it's that is something that I mean, Look, we've we've talked a
lot about, you know, withRyan Grubb and and Huff the offensive line
coach, how that might translate toa you know, familiarity matters to these

(52:28):
coaches and to these gms. Right, if I'm going to bring a player
and transport him to a higher planeof being, which I don't care what
level of college football you played,the NFL is a completely different stratosphere,
and so comfort level has a lotto do with this. And if you
have a coach that's familiar with thatguy already, that can go a long
way and to Mike's point, thereis a familiarity at least early in the

(52:52):
Michigan career UH with Junior Colson andand Mike McDonald and and Colson was very
disruptive in the National Championship game againstyou dub despite playing with one hand.
I mean, he had the bigcast around his left hand in that game
and he was still out there cousinall kinds of hell for Michael PANICX Junior.

(53:13):
So yeah, he's someone to keepan eye on as well. You
know, we're doing this every episode, and it's something I look forward to
every episode because the Seahawks has rightnow are still sixteenth in the first round,
and we get new information every singleweek. The landscape has shifted,
whether through transactions or new rumors orwhatever. So Chuck, here we are,

(53:40):
we're two weeks away from the draft. What do you think the Seahawks
are doing in sixteen? I youknow, when we kind of hatch the
idea for this doing it every week, I was kind of hoping that I
would fluctuate from week to week andhave something brand new, holding out the
real possibility. He's got to beauthentic about it, and I wasn't that.

(54:02):
I wasn't going to change my mind. I just still haven't changed my
mind. I think they're moving down. We entertained some really interesting proposals last
week, and now that I've hada little more time to think about them,
yeah, maybe I do like thatPittsburgh deal or that Philadelphia deal that
you threw by me. Either way, I don't think they stand at sixteen.

(54:23):
I think they're going to end upwith a second day two pick before
it all comes to a close.I may be a little over zealous and
thinking that they could get Peyton Wilsonand Graham Barton out of Duke. That
might fine. He might be offthe board by the time if they moved
down. He might already be offthe board, because it sounded like he

(54:45):
might even be a mid first rounderbefore all of this is done. But
I would not mind. I mean, normally, I'm not a need filler.
I do like teams to traff thebest player available. But I do
think this team has some needs.I think they've been long overlooked, and
so I'm gonna go ahead and stickwith my original thought. I think they

(55:05):
moved down from sixteen, and theyfill a couple of needs by taking an
interior offensive lineman and an interior insidelinebacker. One of those four guys that
you and I just discussed. HeI'm bought and paid for by the Accah
no kidding. I'll say this philosophically. I'm with you. I want to
run a hypothetical by you. DannyHifitz of The Ringer today dropped a mock

(55:30):
draft shout out, Danny Hifitz,Danny, I am in dynasty league with
you. You got the one ohseven pick. I got the one A
wait, I'm trying to move up. If you're listening, hit me up.
Tell me what it's going to taketo one spot in this draft.
But he put a mock draft outtoday and he had the Seahawks trading out
at sixteen with the Chiefs at thirtytwo, so they traded. I know

(55:53):
where he's going with this. Ican predict this before it even happens.
All right, tell me what hethinks happening. Because I've been trying to
do this all week on my showand it just keeps getting left on the
editing room floor. And I don'thave another show this week because I'm going
on a little bit of a weekendgetaway here. So good. I get
to say it on Whitewater Drafting.If brock Bowers falls down this draft,

(56:17):
I'm with you, the Seahawks shouldrun to the podium and take him.
But I'm getting the feeling that theKansas City Chiefs are going to be the
aggressor and get there. They don'twant Patrick Mahomes without Travis Kelcey and Travis
kel So they've been aggressive in thethey were aggressive to come up and get
Patrick Mahomes. I think that ifBowers starts to slip into that mid first

(56:44):
down, first round range, theKansas City Chiefs move up ahead of the
Seahawks or to the Seahawks and takebrock Bowers. He and Kelsey live together
for a year, and then hebecomes the heir apparent to Kelsey after that.
Okay, that could you imagine close? Not quite? Can you imagine

(57:06):
the steam that brock Bauers would haveif he went to the Chiefs. It
would be insane. I love this. You're the first person I've heard to
suggest that specific outcome here. Iactually love it. I'm floored. As
a football fan. That is exactlywhat I want. He has Seattle trading

(57:28):
from sixteen to thirty two, andin exchange they get the chief second round
pick, so sixty four overall anda third round pick in twenty twenty five.
And he actually has it's funny thatwe're talking about it on the Linebacker
Show. He has the Seahawks takingEdrin Cooper at thirty two. WHOA,

(57:49):
how would you feel about that?I think it's a little high. But
again, you know, we geta little too caught up in that,
all of us eth Nicks, like, you got a player that you love,
get him, get him where youcan get him. So if they
came away with him, I wouldthink they have a good player and they

(58:09):
filled a big need. And soeven though I would say that that's probably
a little high for where I wouldtake Edger and Cooper, I think I'd
still like the selection there. Forwhat it's worth, we've used Daniel Jeremiah
as a reference point for analysis onthis show so far, and he has
Cooper as his twenty first ranked playerin the class right above, right above

(58:34):
Byron Murphy. Wow, Well that'salso but that's okay. So he's just
ranking the players, Mike, like, you know what you have to write?
He's going to go twenty first,sure, right, because what you
also have to evaluate is where positionsget drafted. So he probably I don't
know what where does he have?Where's Jeremiah of him in his late as

(58:57):
mock? Because that I have afeeling those are two different stories. Without
knowing I'm gonna I'm gonna predict thatthose are two different stories. But yeah,
I mean I can. I cango with that like that, this
might be one of the top twentytwenty five players in the draft. So
even though the positional value might suggestyou could probably get him or a Peyton

(59:21):
Wilson a little bit later than thirtytwo. Jackson, if he comes away
with Edrin Cooper at thirty two andadd some draft capital, I'm good with
that. I would hate it.I would. He would hate it,
hate it. I would hate it. Yeah, yeah, I would.
Tell me. Here's the thing Ithink that there is, Like I think
there's going to be a chance atsixteen to trade down three to six spots

(59:44):
and still get a player that Ithink is like a stone cold lock first
round grade player. If I'm goingall the way to thirty two, I
am drafting a second round talent andgiving him a first round contract. And
I don't want to do that.We've seen Seattle do so many times,
so many times. You lock RashadPenny into a first round contract, you

(01:00:06):
lock LJ Call You're into a firstround contract. You locked James Carpenter into
a first round contract. These arenot first round players, and they weren't
considered that by anybody at the time, and they bore that out over their
careers. So to me, youhave if you're going to drop back sixteen
spots, I mean you are droppingmultiple tiers of players to go from.

(01:00:30):
Who's going to be available at sixteen? It's going to be a Byron Murphy
or Jared Vers or Johnny Newton orTroy Fatanu or Quinin Mitchell who Quinnion Mitchell?
Who's my favorite defensive player in thisdrowt. I mean, there's so
much real first round talent available atsixteen. To go to thirty two,
there aren't first round players there anymore, certainly not at positions that you want,

(01:00:52):
And so I need more than sixtyfour and in twenty five to third.
If it was me, now look, I think all contextualize it,
but it would annoy me if that'sif that's the trade that they made.
I think that's a really good argument, and you're thinking, like a true

(01:01:15):
draftnick there, you're not getting thevalue for what you you know, the
move that you've made. I willalso agree that how about a first second
round or of next year's number twonot next year's number three, because I
do think that delta matters. Yes, yeah, yeah, maybe I'm a
little more interested. I would justsay this, Detroit got killed last year

(01:01:37):
for their draft, I mean killed, and it was all. It was
all because of the these things thatyou just discussed. They weren't getting the
value for the picks. But whatthey ended up getting in their draft was
everybody they got was good and contributedto their team. And so maybe they
didn't get the best value on samPorta at the time, maybe they could

(01:02:00):
have gotten him later in the draft. Maybe they could have gotten Campbell later
in the draft, or Brian Branchlater in the draft, but all of
those guys ended up being major factorsin it. I mean, they almost
made it the Super Bowl for takingJamiir Gibbs at what twelve, right,
a running back in twelve, noteven the best running back in this class

(01:02:21):
at twelve. All Jamier Gibbs,Jamier Gibson did go out and looked like
rookie Christian McCaffrey. Yeah, Icriticized, right, Well, you're right,
it can work. I criticized themas well. I didn't think they
got the value. But that's sometimeswhere we that love this process so much
kind of get bogged down in theweeds. That's why I say, if
you got a if you've got agood player and you've you've isolated that player

(01:02:44):
and you want to grab him andyou picked up a few extra picks in
the process, I won't I'm notgoing to criticize that. I mean,
I think there's a better way togo about it. All of your points
are very valid. I think there'sa better way to go about it where
you could get more value out ofit. But what you're really trying to
identify or people that can contribute toyour football team now and in the future.

(01:03:07):
Well, and here's the thing thatI want you know, when we're
talking just through the Seahawks, Lensresumed back in on the team we cover,
I think you cannot overlook the factthat, especially on the defensive side,
but I think there's a lot ofthis on the offense too. There
is virtually no career security for alot of these players on this team.

(01:03:32):
These are no longer Pete Carroll's guys. Mike McDonald is inheriting a roster,
and the few guys that they broughtin during free agency are on one year
and two year deals. So youknow, clearly McDonald to some degree checked
off on Leonard Williams long term,but beyond that, he hasn't He hasn't

(01:03:52):
committed long term to anybody. Hisdraft picks will be his second through eighth
long commitments to any of these players. And it's important for me. I'm
saying this out loud as a reminderto myself, less so than like preaching
to people listening right now, iswe really have no idea what the twenty

(01:04:15):
twenty five siawks look like. Thereis so much fungibility in this roster,
the way that their contracts are setup right now, we could be looking
at an entirely different team. Sothe idea of rolling some you know,
sixteen into some twenty twenty five draftcapital sounds great. The Chiefs twenty five
to third, though, I mean, that's barely a top one hundred pick.

(01:04:40):
It's not like the Chiefs are missingthe playoffs this year. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know if I said this
on this podcast last week or ifI did it on my radio show.
I'm getting old, and I youknow, sometimes the lines get blurred.
But I think it's the most fascinatingelement of this is how much different Mike

(01:05:00):
McDonald John Schneider draft looks compared toa Pete Carroll. I mean, I
think John probably does have even alittle bit more say I believe he's always
had a lot of say on this, but maybe a little bit more say
here heading into this particular draft.But it's still going to be colored by
Mike McDonald and the kind of piecesthat he thinks will make his defense particularly

(01:05:23):
work. I can't wait to seethe type of player that the Seahawks draft
this year, and I hope theyend up with more picks. That's why
I kind of want to move downto sixteen so that we can get a
clearer evaluation of that very study.But yeah, I think it's the most
fascinating aspect of this entire draft processfor us here in Seattle is to see

(01:05:44):
what kind of player Mike and Johndraft compared to Pete and John Well,
this is why I'm so excited tobe doing the show with you, is
because you've got this perspective, andfrankly, you've been talking with the decision
makers with this franchise for years andyou've got this insight, and I really
really appreciate that. I'm going toclose this out by talking about what I

(01:06:04):
actually want. You know, I'vespent some time saying what I don't want
the Seahawks to do at sixteen.I want to tell you what I want
them to do at sixteen. Thereare still players that if they're there at
sixteen, I'm sticking and picking.If they turn down, you know,
pick twenty five plus the third roundpick to take Troy Futanu, to take

(01:06:27):
Latu Latu, to take Byron Murphy, to take Johnny Newton. I'm alright
with that. Like I am.Instant reaction and those listening you know from
last year, we're going to behere reacting live to the draft as it
happens. I'm telling you right now, if they stick and pick any of
those guys at sixteen, you're goingto see a very positive reaction from me.

(01:06:48):
So like, trade down if youcan, but don't trade out of
your tier of first round players,and if all of those guys are still
there at sixteen, which might betrue, like they legitimately might all be
there at sixteen, then entertain offersall the way to the point where you
feel very comfortable. I can stillget the last player in that tier.

(01:07:12):
But I do not want the Seahawksto trade out of a first round tier
player, and I don't think youcan go much further back than twenty two
to do that. So I'm actuallygoing to predict that they do a small
trade back and still take I'm goingto assume at this point that it's probably

(01:07:33):
at that point if they trade back, I think LAT two is going to
be gone. I think Murphy willprobably be gone. I think Fatana will
be gone. But if you canget Johnny Newton out of that deal and
you snag a third round pick andyou go get a Peyton Wilson, that
would be a win to me.So that's my prediction. They trade back,
they take Johnny Newton somewhere between twentyand twenty two, and then they

(01:07:55):
add an off ball linebacker with thethird round pick they get in that trade.
Well, that gat back to mypoint I just made is Johnny Newton
and Mike McDonald. Guy, wheredoes he fit in the three four and
a strict three to four scheme,because it's certainly not nose tackle. It's
going to have to be a threeto four defensive end where you presumably have

(01:08:16):
invested financially more heartily into that positionwith Draymond Jones and Leonard Williams than you
have at any other position. Areyou then going to spend a first round
draft pick on on particularly the sameposition. Uh so, I'm certainly not
ruling that out. I think youmake some valid points and and believe me,

(01:08:38):
one of the things that I havelearned in doing this over the years
is they I always thought guys thata draft board, they did it like
we do fantasy football, that theyhad everybody drafted, yeah and ranked in
order. They don't like they have. They have such small boards. It

(01:09:00):
would shock you of how many guysthey're actually interested in. There might only
be like thirty five forty players inthe whole draft they're even interested in.
And so so to be there atsixteen, you're right, you probably are
on the team. It's kind ofa money spot to be in this year.
You're probably you're probably on the outskirtsof drafting somebody that you actually do

(01:09:26):
value as a first round draft pick. So, I mean, that's a
tremendous point, and we'll see ifthat's too irresistible for them. But I
have a feeling what's irresistible for Johnis adding more picks to the equation.
Yeah, and he might even sacrificethat a little bit, Yeah, exactly.
I just I just don't want themto move too far back to where

(01:09:48):
like to me. To me,one first round grade player and an extra
day two grade player is worth moreto me than three day two grade players.
At the end of the day,if your goal is to compete for
your division and to make a playoffrun, and then of course, yes,

(01:10:08):
everybody wants to win a super Bowl. I am not a super Bowl
or bust guy. That's just agreat way to be miserable your whole life.
But I want to be competitive.I want to see a team built
that every year you go in andsay, okay, I see a path
to this being our year. Well, to do that, you have to
have difference makers, and the laterthat you trade back, the less likely

(01:10:30):
it is that that first pick youactually end up do making is going to
make a real difference for your team. So, and just the last thing
on that Johnny Newton's that's a placeholdername, because I think he's going to
be the last guy of that groupthat goes. But whether it's Byron Murphy
or it's Latu or Fatanu, whereveryou think that you can trade back and
take one of those guys, That'swhere I'm at, well, and that's

(01:10:53):
why I just color just slightly differentlymy my scenario because Okay, maybe you
don't get one of those guys bymoving down in my scenario, but you
give yourself the chance you could possiblywalk away with your favorite guard and your
favorite off ball linebacker, which hasbeen the theme huge show. You could

(01:11:15):
get your favorite in those two areas, even though they're not the most impactful
positions out there, you know,in the sport. But if you move
down and you get your favorite ateach of those in those two categories,
and you've got two plug and playstarters potentially heading into this year and beyond.

(01:11:35):
It's not normally a path that Iwould recommend, but for this particular
team, since they want to winright away, I don't rule that out
as what they might try now.Man, I think that's excellent perspective and
it's a great one to wrap theshow up on. Listen, y'all,
that is going to do it forthe third episode of Whitewater Drafting. Thank

(01:11:56):
you again to Chuck Powell. Man, I just love doing this with you.
Oh same here loving it. Yeah. We're getting better every week,
fit stronger, Yeah it is man. In the next two weeks are gonna
be amazing. I cannot like there'sgonna be movement between now and the next
time that people are listening to us, doc and by the time we get
to draft week. Who Baby.As always, you can find Mike,

(01:12:17):
Chuck and I on social media.I am on Twitter at at Jackson Bevans.
That's jac Son. Remember that nok is okay when spelling my name.
Chuck is a Chuck Powell Kjar.Mike is at Mike Barwin, and
the show itself is at Cigar Thoughts. You can catch full video episodes on
our YouTube channel at Cigar Thoughts andfind the rest of our socials at Cigar

(01:12:40):
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(01:13:01):
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