Episode 46: Nichole's Story of Sex Trafficking

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, this is Zoe Harrington fromZoe Superstars on the Golden Aisles, brought
to you by iHeartRadio and Oh mygosh, do I have a story for
you today. You're going to belistening to this over and over and over
again, and I really want youto because it took me a long time
to persuade a friend of mine tocome on the show and talk about being

(00:23):
abused from the time that she wasfour years old until she was fourteen years
old by her grandfather. This isa really ugly, ugly subject. We're
focusing on sex trafficking, but we'renot talking about the problems in our backyard
with our most vulnerable resources, ouryoung children. So I have Nicole with
me today and I hope that shecan put some information out to you.

(00:46):
I want everybody to be aware thatyou could be the next victim, your
child could be, your grandchildren canbe, and we all need to take
our heads out of the cloud andpay attention. And when you see something,
you have to say something. Howare you, Nicole? I'm good?
How are you today? I'm great. I'm so excited that you're here.
I cannot wait for you to tellyour story. And this is such

(01:08):
a such a difficult subject to talkabout, and I'm so happy that you're
here with us today. You andI have talked about this on multiple occasions.
When you were four years old,your grandfather started sexually abusing you,
and he lived actually behind where yourparents live. Can you tell the mothers,

(01:32):
the fathers, the aunts, theuncles, the brothers, the sisters.
Can you tell us how this startedand what happened for all these years?
Well of it first started when Iwas, you know, four years
old, and my grandfather exposed themselvesto me, and it happened for many,
many years. I'm not sure myparents knew or not. I think

(01:52):
they may have had an idea,but they were probably in denial. And
what they'll do, the predators,they'll make you feel ashamed and make you
feel guilty, and that's a tacticthat they do so you won't tell on
them. So what did your grandfathersay to you, Nicole that made you
terrified to tell your parents because hehad to have told you something. You
were pretty close to your parents,weren't you. I was, yeah?

(02:14):
So what did he possibly say thatmade you afraid for ten years to go
to your parents and say Okay,wait a minute, you know this has
been going on behind your back,and did you ever ask them, did
you see any signs? Well,what he would tell me was, you
know, we need to stop doingthis. We need to you know,
not do this. This is wrong, you know. So with him saying

(02:36):
that we you know, made itme as well. And you know you
don't want to do anything to hurtyour parents feelings or do you know,
make them think bad of you,but just saying we need to stop this
like it's him and I, butit really was just him. But I
didn't know that until I was older. So he started that at four years
old using the wee word. Okay, what he was doing was really mind

(02:58):
screwing you at that time exactly,and you were a very vulnerable, beautiful
child. Would you go to hishouse every day when you were four years
old? Can you tell me thepattern of the whole situation, because I
want everybody to listen to this.Every child out there is vulnerable, and
I am very aware of all thesex trafficking that happens in our country.

(03:21):
I think it's horrible, but thisis really more horrible because it's in every
family. On some level. Itmay not be you. It could be
your cousin, your sister, yourbrother, your uncle, your father,
your grandfather, It could be anybodythat's a perpetrator. Right, yeah,

(03:42):
okay, can you walk me throughwhen you were four years old? So
other people listen to what Nicole issaying, because this is so incredibly important.
He exposed himself to her first,when she was four years old.
He exposed his genitals to her,and then what happened from there, well,
in you know, he would say, don't tell your grandma or you

(04:02):
know, don't see anything. Andthen after that he started, you know
me and trying to talk to meabout boys and what not to let the
boys do to me. And uh, I'll you know, until I was
about fourteen, when I stopped poppingto him, I would go visit him
a lot, because you know,I loved him. He was part of
my family. And uh, Iwould, you know, go over there
about three or four times a week, you know, just to hang out
at grandma and granddaddy's and when Grandmawouldn't there, when my granddaddy would do

(04:26):
it, and uh, you knowit was it happened quite often. I'm
very lucky because he did not actuallyyou know, rape me, but it's
still all bad and it did justas much damage. You know, how
old How old would you say yourgrandfather was at that time when he started,
probably in his sixties, late sixties, okay, sixties. We had

(04:47):
a pre interview and you told methat he watched porno, right, he
would, yes and make me watchit with him. So you see,
he was grooming you. That's whatthey called grooming a child's what you call
it, okay, grooming, andhe was grooming you to really be a
little sex slave for him. Doyou realize that now? Oh? Now

(05:08):
I do. When did you cometo that realization? Well about twelve thirteen.
You know. Please listen to whatI'm saying, because Nicole has had
a stuttering problem since what four yearsold? Yeah, and your parents didn't
say where is the stuttering coming from? Did they ever ask you about it?
No? No, And whenever Italk about it, sometimes I still

(05:29):
stutter, but as I got older, it had gotten better. But sometimes
when I do get those flashbacks,you know, I will start stuttering again.
And I'm not sure how it's acoping mechanism, but I've heard that
it was, you know, andI think it's you know all having to
keep my mouth shut, you know, having the secret, Holding that secret
in to me was worse than theactual act. So he actually manipulated you
and shamed you. Yes, thewords to a four year old child at

(05:55):
that time. I've talked to manypeople about this issue, and a lot
of times people will say, ifyou tell anybody, I'm going to kill
your pet, your parents, something'sgoing to happen to your parents. Did
he ever threaten you on any level? Never? Nope, never, not
like that. You know, hejust said, we don't, you know,
need to be doing this, Andhe never said, don't say anything

(06:15):
really, you know, but hemade me feel like it was pretty much
you know all me. Yeah,it was your fault. Yeah, you're
the reason it was typical perpetrator.Okay, Now I was reading up on
people that are addicted to porno andhe watched porno. How often do you
think? Uh? Ever, sinceI've known him, he would sneak around
and watch it. Do you rememberwhat I read to you yesterday about how

(06:40):
it changes the frontal part of yourbrain or totally rewired. I see you
as if I could say a luckyvictim, I could, Yeah, you
a lucky victim, because people thatwatched porn like to go deeper and deeper
and deeper. They get more reasonwith their activities. Maybe outcomes the whip

(07:03):
or chains, or he could havehad you put on little girl outfits and
pomerade around, but none of that. No, he just got straight to
the business. So you also weretelling me that when you spent the night
at your grandparents' house, your grandmotherwould sleep in the same bed. Now
were you in the middle of yourgrandmother and grandfather? Where did you sleep?

(07:24):
Yes? My granddaddy would good abit early, and you know I
was young, so I would goa bit early as well, and Grandma
would stay up on the couch.Then eventually she would go to the bed.
But by that time, whatever happenedhad already happened. Do you think
that she even had a clue?I think so, because right before she
died, pretty much over her deathbed, she uh told my mom and

(07:44):
she said, you know, uh, my granddad wasn't the good man that
everyone thought that he was. Shefinally said that, and my mom said,
I know, well, let's talkabout that for a minute. Incests
has been going on for Central.This is not a new anomaly. This
has gone on for a very longtime. You could be rich, middle
class, or poor. It happensin every social strata. Now, your

(08:07):
grandfather was a deacon in his church, correct, and sat in that front
pew, well, back pew,in the back back too. Yeah,
we're a Southern Baptist him. Yeah, so that's where he belonged, in
the back pew, and wherever heis right now, he's in the back
pew. But to damage a childfrom four years old. You've carried this

(08:28):
with you for a long time,and this is the first time you've come
out and publicly spoken about this.And it took a long time for you
to come on the air. AndI assured you that if we hit any
hot topics, I'm going to stayaway from that. I want to know
what your reservation was about talking aboutthis. I get, I understand the
reservation. I want you to tellme your reservation. Well, I've never
told anyone until I was probably twentytwo years old. That's what I first

(08:52):
told a friend of mine, andshe knew something was kind of not right
with me, you know, andshe tried to pull it out, and
I never would say anything. Finally, you know, I said, Okay,
I told her my story and Ifelt so much better afterwards. And
after that I was kept. Youknow, I have friends and I tell
them, and sure enough, mostof the girls you know that I told
about my story told me about theirs. So I'm really surprised how often it

(09:15):
happens. Well, Letten, happensall the time. And I think that
sex trafficking is one of the mosthorrendous things that happens, But this is
equal to that because it's underneath ournoses, that's right. And you love
the part, you know, Sohow can that? You know, you
love the person, so you feellike you have to be faithful to them.

(09:35):
It's a real messed up feeling.Oh my god. I mean the
conflicts that you went through. Sowhen we were talking, you created an
imaginary world, yes, yourself,Yes, I did. What was inside
that imaginary world, well, differentlocation, you know, I was a
totally different person, different name,everything was totally different, you know,

(09:56):
and I let that take over wheneverI should have been focused on my reality.
Well, you were a child.How would you know that unless you
I didn't know until you know.Okay, So now let's go, let's
dial back. Would you have talkedto a teacher. If you knew what
you knew, now, who wouldyou go to? I would go to,
well, my folks first, andthen I will go to, yeah,

(10:20):
a teacher. I wish I wouldhave went to the police, you
know, I really do, butI didn't. Well, you were terrified.
Let's face it. You know whenyou become totally mind screwed like that,
you know, he played with yourmind from the time that you're four
years old and you were so impressionableand the wee thing just does not get

(10:41):
it. No one reads something here. Somebody had. There's hundreds of thousands,
if not millions, of pages onthis. There's books written about it.
If you see something, say something. And I know that a lot
of teachers see children that they've knownfor a while and they come in they're

(11:01):
depressed, they have different attitudes,they're disruptive, they're acting out for a
reason. And I don't know whatthe resources are in our school system,
but it would seem to me thatthese teachers would be alert. If you
didn't stutter, and all of asudden you're stuttering, I would be like,
Okay, Manda, can you comein here and talk to me for
a little bit and tell me what'sreally going on, because this is not

(11:22):
something that you would do under normalcircumstances. How do children act or behave
after being sexually abused? I knowa four year old who acts strange around
her grandfather. She used to adorehim, but she now cries if his
name is brought up to her.And the response was, it's great that
you're paying attention to this little girl'sbehavior change and asking questions about her safety.

(11:48):
So the warning signs children do oftenshow signs of distress, and it's
not always easy to figure out what'sgoing on. Changes in respects to people
in places can sometimes be as simpleas a child reacting to the confusion of
seeing a beloved person in their lifegrow a beard, and of course,

(12:09):
sometimes more complex and yes, evenharmful reasons can be the cause of a
child's distress. It's always wise tonote, as you are doing, changes
in your child's behavior and to payattention to what may be causing that behavior.
Are you seeing any other signs?Please look at the warning signs in

(12:31):
children of possible child sexual abuse.It's important to understand that the presence of
a single warning sign does not necessarilymean that a child is being sexually abused.
That's one warning sign is stuttering.Primarily, we suggest looking for repeated
warning behaviors or patterns of the behaviorsthat appear concerning. Have other possible explanations

(12:56):
for this change in behavior been considered? Have there been other changes in this
child's family or environment that may alsobe contributing to her distress? Has anyone
else raised a concern about her?Does any of this supply to you?
Do you think that anybody ever saidanything to your family, Nicole about your
behavior? You did you have problemsin school? Well? No, I

(13:20):
was a a by student, anduh, I don't think anyone noticed,
because I've got really good about hidingit, you know, faking it thinking
you know, I'm fine, youknow, don't worry about me. I'm
fine. When a really deep downI was not fine? And uh,
did you have a big circle offriends when you're in school? Well,

(13:41):
I went to a Christians Christians school, So no, I went to school
with the same six or seven peoplefrom K four to twelfth grade. So
you had a very small, verysmall yeah. I I was pretty much
by myself a lot, you know, on the farm and everything Okay,
so you had a teacher that hada very small class. My whole school

(14:01):
was small. Yes, So okay, common sense has to kick in sometimes.
And I'm not blaming the teachers,believe me, but common sense has
to kick in. If you havethis beautiful little girl that comes in,
she's happy all the time, andthe next thing you know, she's stuttering.
So did you tell me how thisstuttering started? And how long?

(14:24):
You still have a little bit ofa stutter? When you get anxious,
I do. And you get veryanxious when you're around men that remind you
of your grandfather. So when Iasked you, when you are confronted with
these people, what do you do? How do you get yourself mentally out
of that situation? Well? Ijust try to think about something else,

(14:46):
you know, focus on something else. Yeah, and certain things do trigger
you know, me think about mygrandfather, you know, like if I
see certain men that have the samehairstyle as him, sometime certain smells can
trigger it. And what I dois just try to think about something else,

(15:07):
you know, because I will getanxious and I'll sit outside and puke.
I have done that several times.Well that's good, because you're getting
that toxin out, I guess.So, Yeah, it's a good thing.
So I had read something about bedwedding children that bedwet. They've not
bed weet their entire life, andall of a sudden they're bed wedding and
the parents are wondering what's going on. I'm gonna take you to a therapist,

(15:31):
let's see. But it's like yousaid, there's so much shame and
the we could get in trouble.These kids get so scripted and they're so
groomed to act like everything's okay,and it's not okay. So your father,
your grandfather, as far as I'mconcerned, Nicole had his frontal cortex

(15:52):
from watching that. Poor noo rewired. Something was messed up. Yeah,
yeah, Do you ever wonder ifhe was abused as a child, because
you know, they have found outthat this is a generational thing. Do
you ever wonder about that? Youknow, I have wondered that a few
times, and I've wondered if ithappened to his kids. Yeah, you

(16:15):
know, absolutely, So it's theperson that perpetrates usually has the background of
abuse, and it has stopped withyou. No, yes, that's it.
That's right. And wouldn't it bewonderful to go into a classroom of

(16:36):
little kids from first grade on andtalk to them about your experience and explain
to them, if something happens,you need to go to somebody of authority
that can do something about it.Now, if you would have gone to
the minister where your grandfather was adeacon, I can only imagine. This

(16:56):
is just my opinion, I couldimagine that that would have been snuffed out
immediately. Yeah, yeah, Iprobably would have made felt like, you
know, something's wrong with me.Well, I want to tell you.
The last person I would think Iwould tell you know, you would tell
who that's the last person probably wouldbe be the preacher, right, because

(17:18):
he was such a big man inthe church, right, my granddaddy.
So here we go with the churchagain. You know that's where a lot
of predators hang out. You knowthis. He sits in that church on
Sunday and is a saint, andthe rest of the week he's a real
monster. Yeah. When did youhave your epiphany that this is not right?
Nicole? When did you have thisepiphany that, okay, this is

(17:42):
not right. You went and talkedto your parents about this, didn't you
Yeah, finally at age twenty six, at twenty six, you held that
in from four years old to twentysix years old, and what was their
reaction? Uh? They were surprised, kind of. My mom took it
a lot worse than my dad did. But uh, and after that,

(18:03):
we really hadn't talked that much aboutit. Unfortunately, we haven't taught much
about it. Is it something youwant to do or is it something that
you would rather shove that bare backin the closet. Well, I guess
I'd rather bear back in the closet. I said what I had to say
about it. You know, Imy biggest regret in life is not confronting
my granddad myself. Well you werefour years old. Yeah, but you

(18:26):
were a little girl. I shouldhave did it before he died. How
old were you at that time?Probably about thirty, close to thirty.
Okay, energy cannot be created nordestroyed, that's right. Today. Let's
say your grandfather was sitting in thatchair, what would you say to him,
Well, I would tell him,you know, how come he didn't
think about what it would do tome? You know, in the long

(18:47):
run, you know, it reallykind of screwed my life up. But
I don't want that my past toyou know, define you know today and
who I am now. But Iwould tell him that he should be ashamed
of himself. You know that he'sa liar and a predator and not the
good man that he wants everybody tothink he is. Right. Well,
he can hear you, trust me, he can hear you right now.
So shame on him, Shame onhim, Shame on him. Do you

(19:11):
think that he ever disclosed this toany of his buddies? No, do
you think that this was going onwith anybody else in your community? Not
with him, but could be withother kids. And when you live in
smaller communities, let's face it,it's not spoken about. We'll talk about
these type of things. When Iwas a young child growing up, and
I have not told a lot ofpeople this story. This is like a

(19:33):
family secret. We were at mymother's family in England and my great uncle
ran a major corporation. We wereall sitting. They had a very large
sitting room at their country home.My great uncle insisted that I sit on
his lap. All these warning bellsas a little girl went off, and

(19:55):
I was probably about five and ahalf or six years old, at that
time, he say, come overhis sits on my lap. I've not
seen you forever. So I wentand sat on his lap and he started
touching me, and thank you God. My father was in the room and
he listened to me. So Igot up and motioned for my father to
come into the kitchen, and Itold him that this uncle Graham, may

(20:17):
you rest in peace or not,because you traveled all over the Orient and
I think that you were a verysick man. My father called you into
the kitchen. This was a bigman. My father threw him on the
floor and said, I know whatyour game is, I know where you
travel. Don't you ever touch mychildren again. My father was absolutely livid.

(20:40):
Anybody that's listening, go to somebodythat trust you, and you trust
them. And as I told youyesterday, Nicole, my father grabbed this
big man up by his hair andtold him to get back in the sitting
room and don't ever touch a childaround him again. Now, I'm sure
that he continued on with his behaviorbecause he was scripted that way. My

(21:03):
great aunt lived a life of luxuryand she was not going to do anything
to upset that apple card. Youcan better believe that my father had a
conversation with the two of those peopletogether before they left that evening. If
he thought that he got away withsomething, my father was like he exposed
it. Now, this was sixtyyears ago, and my father knew where

(21:25):
he traveled, and we know what'savailable in the Orient. We've read about
all this. I want to getback to. What's your daily life was
like after you got out of school? Did you go over there every day?
Every other day? Did he evertake you on trips by yourself?
Well, after school, I wouldget over there and every day about you
know, three or four days aweek, and on the weekend sometimes I

(21:48):
was well, every other weekend i'dstay over there, you know, on
a Friday night. What compelled youto keep going back? You know?
I asked myself that all the time. I'm not sure. I guess this
is what I've always known at thattime. Okay, remember we talked earlier
about how he groomed you. Yeah, this is absolutely sickening to me,
because people that are predators plant seedsin your mind. Let's face it.

(22:10):
As a child, our ground isso fertile, and we believe things that
adults tell us. That's right,We believe it. We don't second guess
them. And we're raised in theSouth that we have a hierarchy here and
men rules supreme. Right, Yeah, there could have been a lot of
reasons when you sit back and startto really explore, and it's a beautiful
time for you to journal about allthis because there's so many resources. But

(22:33):
this interview is many pronged. Isto let you know that you're not the
only person out there that this happenedto. This is happening every single day.
Yes, And I have a clientwho's a therapist and we were talking
one day and he was telling meabout a patient of his and of course
did not use any name, butthis was a very distressing situation to him

(22:59):
because he had counseled a young manwhose mother had emotionally captivated him into believing
this is called emotional incests, thatthat was her husband. He had to
move to another city and not takeher telephone calls. Because when they get
their hooks in you, they knowall the buzzwords, They wire you the

(23:21):
way they want you wired, andyou don't even realize what you're doing.
They're the puppet master and you're thepuppeteer. They're the puppeteer and you're the
puppet. That's right. It mademe very rebellious. Yeah, I was
very rebellious. Well, prisons arefull of men and women that have been
sexually perpetrated. That's right, that'sright. I think that those prisoners should,

(23:42):
if they're not harmful to other people, should be put in one area
and have therapy instead of putting themin with the main population. Of all
these people that have killed people,done unbelievable drugs, horrible things in their
life, the people that end upin prison and had been perpetrated, that's
right. Uh. You know,I know people from all different walks of

(24:04):
life, and I know several womenthat have been to jail, been to
prison, and I asked them,you know all of them? I said,
so when you whenever you're in jail, I how any women do you
think? We're in there for drugs? They said most of them? And
I said, well, have anyof those women you know were sexually listed?
And without any hesitation, all thegirls said about eighty ninety percent of

(24:26):
the girls have been sexually you know, messed with, and that's why they
got on drugs, and that's whythey're in jail. So if we could
start that before you know, theygo to the drugs, that would be
wonderful. But I don't really thinkjail prison helps a lot of these girls
at all. It seems to makethem worse, actually, And do you
know why that is? I thinkbecause they learn a lot of stuff from
the other inmates. Yes, yes, that's you hit the nail on the

(24:49):
head, so you go from badbehavior to worse behaviors. Right, It
would seem to me, since youhad been perpetrated for ten years, it
would seem to me that this issomething that is enmeshed within your soul.
And you've done a lot of deepmeditating, You've read a lot about this,

(25:11):
and you are absolutely not alone.There's thousands and thousands of pages.
Here is a review of one hundredand twenty five children six years of age
and under who were sexually abused.This is all recent information. What in
the world is going on? We'reworried about sex trafficking from outside of the

(25:32):
country, and we're messing up ourchildren in our country underneath our nose.
So I hope if you see something, you say something. And I know
that there's a lot of teachers outthere that are like, oh, I
just don't want to be involved inthis. I can't be involved in it.
I'll lose my job. Okay,you know what, you are as
bad as the person that's committing thecrime. My father used to say,

(25:56):
who is the worse person? Theperson committing the crime or the person sitting
back watching it happen. Who's themost guilty of the two? Right?
Yeah? I know that In modernday teaching, they have courses on psychology
and what to look out for.Now, it would be very easy if
we were a teacher and watch achild come in every week with the bloody

(26:18):
nose, scars or who's is allover them? That's something outward, that's
an easy spot. And still alot of teachers don't say anything. They
don't get child services involved in thatbecause they don't want to be involved.
And you could be their salvation.And you need to wake up and pay
attention, because I'm going to tellyou something. If you have an opportunity

(26:41):
to help somebody and you don't doit, bad karma on you. You
should always be aware you are incharge of these little children's lives and they
don't have voices yet, and ifthey have a voice. They're afraid to
use it, right, That's right. That's why I said, are you
know? Sometimes? So the authors, I want to read this to you.

(27:02):
The authors present a chart review ofa hundred and twenty five children six
years of agent under who presented betweenearly eighty one and eighty three to acute
care hospitals because of sexual abuse atsix years old six years okay. They
represented one third of the cases ofale alleged excuse me sexual abuse between the

(27:26):
infancy and eighteen years of age referredto the hospitals Multidisciplinary Sexual Abuse Team.
The ratio of females to males wasthree thirty one. Sixty percent of the
children were victims of intra familial abuse. That is a high number of the
preschoolers. Seventy two percent were victimsof intra familial abuse at school age.

(27:52):
There was a reversal was seventy threepercent of six years old being abused by
a family offender. The duration ofthe abusive relationship was greater in Emily abuse
purpose they have you captive. They'vegot you captive, okay. Disclosures were
more frequent overall, but were significantlyless frequent when the perpetrator was a family

(28:14):
member or when the child was apreschool or two thirds of the children had
physical and or behavioral symptoms. Soremember what we were talking about before.
It's easy to see if a childhas been slapped around. Yeah, that's
an easy one. What this issaying is a lot of times the physical
abuse goes along with a sexual abuse. A lot of these things go hand

(28:36):
in hand. If I'm thinking outsideof the box, I'm thinking that these
children get thumped around because they don'tdo what their handlers tell them to do.
That would be my thought process.Parents of children who had been the
victims of familial abuse were more likelyto be separated or divorced. The difficulties
at assessing young victims of alleged sexualsexual abuse and the implay. Locations of

(29:00):
the findings are all over the internet. Do your research, Do your research.
So I believe that there are many, many, many Nicols in our
community right here. Yes, AndI want to read this to you also
because I think this is going togive you a lot of calm. Grandfather

(29:22):
granddaughter incests accounts for about ten percentof all reported cases. Those are only
reported a family childhood sexual abuse.In a sample of ten such cases,
all referrals came from mothers of thechild victims. Six of these mothers had
themselves been abused in childhood by theperpetrator. For eight of the ten perpetrators,

(29:42):
multiple child sexual victims were identified ina pattern that suggests pedophilia. So
you do realize that your grandfather wasa pedophile. Yeah, right. Only
two the eighteen grandchildren sexually abused bythe ten grandfathers were asymptom matoic at the
time of the report. Grandchild victimsfrom chaotic family showed educational and behavioral symptoms.

(30:06):
Those from stable families exhibited fears andphobias. Now when you say we,
your grandfather kept saying we. It'slike, if you say anything,
you're going to blow our whole familydynamica. And as a little girl,
in the back of your mind,you had to have thought that somewhere.
I did. Yes, you keptme quiet, Yeah, because your whole
family would be at odds. That'sright. Yeah. The results cast out

(30:30):
on the assumption that grandparent incest isa benign form of abuse, and indicate
that there is some justification for thefears expressed by adult incests victims about visitation
between their children and the farther perpetrator. I mean, we can go on
and on and on about all thesestudies about all these people, but it's

(30:51):
incests is alive and well it hasnot gone away. One thing that came
to mind when you and I weretalking, Nicole, was Chevy Chases Vacation
movies where we remember those right,and Randy Quaid was always a hilarious character
and I will never forget his daughtersaid, my father says that I French
kissed better than anybody. Do youremember that part in the movies? If

(31:12):
you don't, you have to rentit. You have to get it and
see it, because it was inthere. And my mouth was a gait.
I'm like, what in the world. And then you have the families
members listening to this, and nobodysays anything. People think, from what
I've read, that it's a bunchof dysfunctional country bumpkins that participate in this.

(31:33):
And I am here to tell youright now that that is an absolute
fallacy. It happens in every community, from the richest to the poorest,
and it's a behavioral thing that passesfrom one generation to the next. Let's
get back to u, Nicole,when you actually told your parents what their
reaction was, Well, they wereshocked, and of course they wanted to

(31:56):
send me to therapy. But Idid do it for a while. But
uh, my dad didn't say muchat all. Really, he didn't say
anything. Actually, and my momshe expressed hatred towards my grand my granddaddy.
Did she stop talking to him atthat point? Pretty much? Yeah,
But I don't think he realized it. I don't think he knew what
was going on, and you knowhe didn't. He didn't know I said

(32:17):
anything. I wish you would haveknown. So your grandfather was a very
manipulative man. And what would youthink if he knew? Darn Goodenwell that
your mother knew because she had agreat relationship with him up until that point
and then she totally ignored him.Do you think that he could have thought,
Okay, she knows. My sonmay not know, but my daughter

(32:39):
in law knows. Yeah, andhe may have gotten the hint. But
I'm not sure. You know,I couldn't tell you. I want to
read something here which is amazing.A vast quantity of evidence has been gathered
through researched to amplate document that almostuniversal culture prohibits in spite of this taboo

(33:00):
which permeates both civilized and primitive society, there emerges in consummate from sporadic violations
of this potent prohibition. Okay,now listen to this. Indeed, it
is not unreasonable to believe that,because of the very taboo which surrounds incests,
it is far more prevalent in oursociety than one would estimate on the

(33:21):
basis of cases which come to generalattention. You're in that segment of people
that walked away never reported. Howmany other people are Nicol's out there waiting
to be heard? Probably a lot. I am shocked whenever I do share
my story with you know, girlfriendsof mine and things like that, it

(33:42):
seems like most of them have astory to share with me as well,
you know. And I was verysurprised that it has happened to so many
people. I know. How doesthat make you feel When people say I
had the same experience, but itwas worse. I had five perpetrators,
not one. It makes you wantto try to help to do something about
it. Maybe I can turn aboutlemons in the lemonade. You know,
you're taking a big job helping peopletoday. Well, if you can help

(34:07):
one person, you know, oneor two people in make the whole thing
worth it to me. America hasan incests problem. People are rightfully horrified
by abuse scandals at Penn State andin the Catholic Church, But what about
children who are molested by their ownfamily members? People are rightfully horrified by
abuse scandals at Penn State and inthe Catholic Church, But what about children

(34:29):
who are molested by their own familymembers? You see, this is a
hidden part of our society because peopledon't want to talk out about that because
their grandfather is a deacon in thechurch. And who's gonna believe me?
This is a man that's been thepillar of our community for many years.
Nobody's gonna believe that he does this, right. Were you ever afraid of
that? Uh? No, Iwasn't. But you know, I was

(34:52):
more afraid that it's you know,my own flesh and blood, you know.
And I didn't want to hurt mygrandmother either, you know. So
that's one reason I or say anything, because I didn't see any reason that
it should, you know, affecther. So it's another reason I kept
my mouth shut, you know,because she didn't need it. All that
I felt like, now I wishI would have said something. You're saying
something today. Yea. And youdo not know how many people you're helping

(35:16):
by coming out talking about this issue. Because it was not easy, Nicole,
to get you in the studio.I had massaged and talk to you
about this, and I said,you know what I've done this for.
I have done so many interviews.I would love to get somebody like yourself
to come on and be very openand let mothers and fathers know if your

(35:37):
children start acting differently, squat ontheir level, eye to eye and ask
them questions. Ask them questions forcrying out loud. Children will tell you
everything if you ask them and letthem know. You're not in trouble if
you tell me anything. I justneed to know this because I've noticed a
change in your personality. Can youtell me what that's about? What's going

(36:00):
on in your life? Is theresomebody that is doing things to you that
shouldn't be doing it? As aparent, we should be asking our children
these questions, right, Yeah,and you know, just tell them,
don't be ashamed. And it's notyour fault. Yeah, So it's not
your fault. And I know thatthere's plenty of parents out there that take
their children to babysitters. I havea girlfriend that was a therapist that used

(36:24):
to send her children to school onthe school bus and she would grill these
people like crazy. And I said, oh, thank God. And she's
from Columbus, Georgia. I mether in Kansas City and I said,
what would make you do that?And she said, because there are so
many perpetrators. That's why she knewthe full scoop. Now, I don't

(36:44):
know if you remember the Jerry Sandusky. He was the football coach that would
rape young men downstairs in his basement. And I'm going to tell you there's
a lot of people listening that rememberthe abuse of this man at a university
level. And his wife was inthe house and she would hear these young

(37:06):
men screaming downstairs that were being rapedby this coach. She should be in
prison just like him. There's noreason for her to be walking free today,
no reason. She was as involvedand as complicit as he was.
Now, why do people let thesewomen off like that? She was just
as guilty as he was. Andwhy the mothers didn't go after her,

(37:27):
I can't figure out she heard thesekids screaming in the basement. These boys
wanted to be football stars so badlythat they would do anything. If I
heard a child screaming in my basement, I'd be down there in a heartbeat.
You know, incest is a subjectthat makes people recoil. We don't
want to hear about it. Yeah, the malace is uncomfortable. Yeah,

(37:47):
we don't want to think about it. We don't want to hear about it.
The word alone causes so many peopleto squirm. And it's telling that
all of the individual and groups ofperpetrators who've made national headlines today, virtually
none have been related to their victims. These are people that they go and
they plot, and if you wantto play football, you're going to perform,

(38:08):
and if you don't, you're offthe team. I remember watching the
trials about that, and I wasso thrilled when they put him in prison
for the rest of his life,because I can tell you he's getting his
just dues. As we all know, men in prison many many times or
sexually abused, and you put asexual abuser in there, they're going to

(38:29):
get what they get and they deserveit. Trust me, they deserve it.
Look up the Sandusky case. Theteachers and the priests account for far
fewer cases of child sexual abuse,but boy, he was in the thick
of that. So was his wife. That was a case, and many
other high profile cases. I wantto tell you another story that I had

(38:51):
happened in my own personal life.I dated a guy who owned a business.
His father had a super successful business, worked sixteen hours a day.
His mother had three boys. Theman that I was dating, she chose
to be her husband. That washer husband. She had attached herself to

(39:13):
him in a very insidious way.And the longer I dated, the more
I saw this. So I havea friend that says, you know,
I know that you love to read, and I'm going to give you a
book I want you to read,she said, And I want to have
a discussion with you about this nextweek, because I know you're going to
gobble this up in two days,and I want you to really think about

(39:34):
this over a week after reading this, okay, And she said, what
did you learn from this book?And I said, what I learned was
his mother was very lonely in hermarriage, and she chose one of the
three boys to be her husband.So that is complete emotional incests. So

(39:55):
we'd be at a movie theater andshe would call about some Dane question and
all this information came flooding back tome, and I got out of there
as quick as I could because itwas like the story of my life.
Okay, this is happening. Ihave been involved with people that have had
their own set of issues. AndI sat down and talked to her and

(40:21):
I said, what is it inme that attracted this man to me?
And she said, you're a verystrong woman, and his mother's a strong
woman. And I said, Idon't want to have anything to do with
this because I'm not going to triangulatein a relationship. And that's what it
would have been. He would haveslipped her right on in there, and
it would been the three of usin a marriage, not the two of

(40:43):
us. So I've had some wonderfulmentors in my life that I've been able
to go to and just run ideasby them. And the average person would
have said, you're crazy, that'snot happening. Oh yeah, it's happening.
And it's more frequent with women andtheir sons than it is with sons.

(41:07):
Would excuse me. With fathers andtheir daughters. It's much more prevalent
with women doing this. And Inotice that all the time now when a
mother turns to a son, wellwhat's your opinion on this? Well,
he's not old enough to make adecision about that. Why are you asking
him? Think for yourself. Sothere's all sorts of warning signs to watch

(41:27):
out for this. Did your grandfatherever tell inappropriate jokes in front of you
like a lot of predators do.Nope, I've never heard him cuss.
I've never you know, seen himdrink. He would read the Bible in
front of me and you No,he was a good godly man. How

(41:49):
you know. That's how he triedto protect betray himself. Now you know
that he lived his life as alie, right, yeah, hypocrite,
big time, an absolute hypocrite.Do you think that he had abused other
children before you? Because he wasin his sixties when he started. Is
that right or fifth? Well,that's right. You know. I often
wonder if he done it to myaunt and she says that no, he

(42:12):
never has. But when she didadmit whenever she was in her thirties,
he asked her to buy her heasked her to buy him some pornography,
you know, and he exposed himselfto her. But she says she was
in her thirties, so I'm notsure. Maybe she's very ashaming. Maybe
yeah, I think she might notbe telling me the whole truth, you
know, And I really wish thatshe would get it out because I can

(42:35):
tell, you know, she usedto drink a lot, things like that,
and I really do feel that that'swhy. You know, she doesn't
drink now, but she did inthe past. And I think that's exactly
why, because living with what hedid to her, and he would still
come around even after I admitted,you know, to what he did to
me. He would still come around, although he didn't know that we all

(42:57):
knew. So you have a hunch. I have a hunch. Yeah.
And how old is she now?She is in her sixties. Do you
think that if you sat down withher and said, I'd like to have
a very frank conversation with you becauseI'm getting rid of all my nursery ghosts
and I want you to tell methe truth about this because I have suspicions
I've seen some behaviors out of you. Men don't ask women to go buy

(43:20):
pornography like that that is so inappropriate. She was how old she was in
her thirties, so what happened beforeshe was in her third I know,
we wonder right, Yeah, Sorelationships with children, this is a predator.
They turned to a child for emotionalor physical comfort by sharing personal or
private information or activities normally shared withadults. Kids don't need to know everything

(43:45):
that's happening. It's none of theirbusiness. They need to be kids.
They have secret interactions with teens orchildren. For example, they play games,
they give them drugs, alcohol,or sexual material, which is what
happened with you, you're right there, Or spends excessive time emailing, text
messaging, or calling children or youth. Now that doesn't apply to you because

(44:09):
back then, Nicole, we didn'thave the internet to do that. Yeah,
right, right. So they insiston or manage to spend uninterrupted time
along with a child, which happenedwith you when your grandmother was at work.
It seems too good to be true. Like buying babysitters gifts different children,

(44:30):
take children in, they take childrenon special outings alone, buys children's
gifts, or gives the money forno apparent reason, allows children or teens
to consistently get away with inappropriate behaviors. Any of that sound familiar, So
this is you in a nutshell.Frequently points out sexual images or tells dirty

(44:51):
or suggestive jokes with children's present,exposes a child to adults sexual interactions or
images without apparent concern, is overlyinterest it and the sexuality of a particular
child or teen. Talks repeatedly aboutthe child's developing body, or interferes with
normal teen dating. And that's whathappened with you. He was grooming you

(45:12):
not to date. Man. Yeah, so I mean that was his mantra.
Yeah, it was kind of messedup because he'd say one thing and
then do the the other, youknow, right, So let's when I
was talking to you yesterday. Youdo not have to penetrate a child sexually
to be a predator, That's right. He never penetrated you, No,

(45:35):
did he have you take all yourclothes off? Yes? Okay, I
wonder why he never tried penetration.Did you ever wonder that? I figured,
because then he probably would get caught, Okay, you know, because
I was a version so right,you know, so could this man even
get an erection that you know of? Yeah? He got one. So
there you go with that. Soyou just heard from Nicole at sexual penetration

(46:00):
did not occur. However, youknow she watched these poor no movies And
thank God that you've been away fora long time from that, because I
want everybody to go online and seehow dark, how dark people's minds can
be when they are consistent poor Nowatchers you and I were reading yesterday.

(46:23):
It changes the frontal part of yourbrain. It absolutely rewires you. And
if you don't believe that, goon medical websites, go on any site
you want. Yeah, google it, Google it because it's out there.
Baby. So can we fast forwardNicole whenever you went and told your parents

(46:45):
what their reaction was, And Iknow that your mother quit talking to him.
So I'm convinced that your grandfather knew. When your mother was always the
happy peppermint patty that was gracious toanybody that walked through her doors, did
she turn her back on him whenhe walked in or just walk away or
not talk to us? She justkind of didn't talk to him, so

(47:07):
he knew. Yeah, he hadto know. So when you sat down
and said to your parents, Ineed to tell you something that's gone on
because I cannot carry this burden withme for the rest of my life.
I need to tell you something,And that took a lot of courage for
you to do that. It tooka lot. And how did you muster
up the courage to do that?Well, Uh, you know, I

(47:29):
hate to say it, but yeah, I was on drugs and uh,
you know, I was at mybottom bottom. You know, I hit
rock bottom, and uh, Ifelt like if I got that off my
chest, then you know, I'dfeel a lot better. And I did
feel better, and I started doingbetter after I finally got it off,
you know, told them I wasgoing on. Did you ever have thoughts

(47:49):
of suicide? No, thank youGod for them. Yep. Because a
lot of people, a lot ofindividuals are so harmed and so devastated by
this. I think as a neighbor, we all have children come to our
house, and I watched those littlekids that came to my house like a
hawk. This was always something inthe back of my mind, and I

(48:13):
think that as a community, weneed to pull together and watch these things.
If a parent says, I wouldlike to take your teenage son on
a trip with me for a schoolfunction, would that be a red flag
to you? Probably, so that'dbe a red flag to me. Yes.
When you go back to Roman andGreek times, this was absolutely normal.

(48:38):
But I'm here to tell you we'renot living in Roman and Greek times
when that was acceptable. It isnot acceptable. Our bodies are our bodies.
I am clean with anybody that willstep up to the plate because you're
going to change somebody's life. Oneperson out there can make a difference.

(48:59):
And our society is rife with centersfor women that have bad behavior. We're
trying to get them on track.They're not always honest like Nicole is.
You know, they'll skip around theissues and tell you everything except I was
abused by my stepfather, my realfather, my uncle, my brother.

(49:20):
There's a lot of incests that takesplace between brothers and sisters. Are you
aware of that? Yes? Yes. And about the suicide question, I
never wanted any know to commit suicide. But what I didn't realize what I
was doing was I was really tryingto do that, you know, self
destructive path, you know, withthe drugs and everything. I was trying
to kill myself without doing it allof a sudden, you know, I

(49:40):
was slowly killing myself. Right,and you've backed out of that? Yes?
And are you real close with yourparents today? I am. And
you have forgiven both of them,yes, well, yes, and I've
even forgave my grandfather, you know, not for him, but for me,
because I've realized how much energy thatI can waste on holding grudges and

(50:04):
dwelling on the past is taken awayfrom my positive energy, you know,
to move forward and to do betterthings. So I encouraged you know everyone,
you know, don't feel guilty andforgive them. Forgive yourself. You
know, why would you forgive yourself? You did nothing wrong? You put
that in your mind. We Yeah, I guess you're right. You have
nothing to forgive yourself for you werea young girl. You're right, you're

(50:25):
right, Well, do it foryourself, forgive them for yourself. There
you go, Yeah, yeah,that's yeah, that's what I mean.
And you know you've always heard theold adage, you know, just forgive
and forget. You can forgive,you never forget. Well, it's really
crazy. It's like, what doI do have a lobotomy? Putting myself
in the mindset that these perpetrators arethat why these things all day, and

(50:49):
I am here to tell you Iknow one of the most high profile people
in this country that is an absolutepervert. He watches with his wife in
the house, and of course shejust plays dumb because she loves her crushy
lifestyle. But he's on the internetthree to four hours a day watching porn.
When you do that, like wediscussed earlier, your mind goes to

(51:13):
very dark places, and you don'tplay these games with your wife. So
you go find a girlfriend or somebodythat's willing to be your little sex slave
on the side. There they liketo love bomb these women. You're the
most beautiful thing I've ever seen inmy whole life. I don't know what
I would do without you. Youmake every head turn in this room when
you walk in. Well, youknow what's kind of messed up is a

(51:36):
bunch of porn focuses on stepbrothers andstep dads and stepmothers, and you know,
it's all messing us up the waywe think about things. You know.
So that's what you were exposed to, that level of porn watching family
members. So he chose his pornaimed at you. Yeah, so he
knew what this was a clever man, he knew what he was doing.

(51:57):
He wouldn't stupid. I'm gonna promiseyou some thing. You are not his
first victim. Yeah, he wastoo well oiled machine not to have been
his first go round. And asyou and I know, in communities where
you have high profile people, ohno, they couldn't do that. Oh
yes, they do that all thetime. Can you leave any words of

(52:19):
wisdom the children out there? Ihope that some of you parents allow your
children to hear this show because theyare not alone, and let them open
up to you. It may notbe them that's being perpetrated. They might
have a four year old little Nicolethat is telling them the secret. It
may not be your child that's beingperpetrated. It could be their friends.

(52:44):
And we are responsible as a communityto take this in our own hands.
I'm so sad for the sex traffickingthat's coming in from the borders. I'm
more worried about our children in ourcommunity. Or advice, you know,
I don't be scared to say somethingif you know someone's unappropriate with you.
Don't feel ashamed, don't feel nasty, guilty, don't feel that sorry.

(53:07):
It's hard not to though it's veryhard not to, but yeah, just
say something, say something, anddon't let your past define who you are
today and who you could be.Happens all the time, and you're not
the only one that happens to youknow, it's happened. It's been happening
for ever since creation. I'm sure, Oh my gosh, it's happened since

(53:28):
the beginning of time. There's allsorts of things out there that I don't
want to bring on the radio becauseI want children to be able to listen
to this with their parents. Butthere's a lot of other things that I
could bring up, but I'm notgoing to because I've been well schooled by
a girlfriend who's a psychiatrist. Thisis her emphasis, But I don't want
to go down into that filthy,dirty cesspool of other information. But I

(53:52):
am begging you, as parents tolet your children listen to this. Cole
was victimize and I feel from everythingthat we've talked about today, your grandfather
was a well oil machine baby,and he knew exactly what he was doing,
and you are not his first scienceexperiment. God bless you for coming

(54:12):
on. Thank you, and Iam so hoping that you have some little
epiphanies along the way, and asthough seeds in your mind start to come
up, I want you to mowthem down. I think that you are
one of the most brave women thatI've ever met in my life to come
on this show. This is atough subject to talk about, and you
let us in your inner sanctum andI want to thank you for that welcome.

(54:36):
I appreciate you so much. Thankyou. Hi. Zoe Harrington here
joined me on ninety eight point sevenFm're fourteen forty am on w gig from
noon to one o'clock on Saturdays tohear Zoe Superstar of the Golden Aisles.
Listen to amazing stories from amazing people.