Episode 47: Rev. Debra Downs Adoption Story

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Good afternoon. This is Zoe withthe Superstars of the Golden Aisles and we
have a luxury and the privilege oftalking to Debbie Downs today. And I
am so excited to do this interviewbecause I've wanted to do an interview like
this forever regarding being an adopted child. And Deborah has agreed to come in

(00:22):
and talk to us about this.She lives in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, was
born in New York City in theBronx. Deborah is a Spanish teacher as
well as being a mission preacher,and she's also CEO of Hopes Children.
So this is one busy lady.And I hope that she can motivate you

(00:43):
today. If you're an adopted person, I hope that she can help you
heal your heart because a lot ofpeople never get past that point in their
life. And I am so thrilledthat she's here to share her wisdom with
us. This is one smart gal. How are you, Deborah. I'm
doing great. Thank you so muchfor allowing me to be here, though.
I am so glad you're here.So you were born in the Bronx

(01:06):
and Mercy. It was called misterAccordia Hospital but it's now Mercy Hospital in
the section for unwed mothers. Okay, so your parents were teenagers at that
time, yes, and your mothergave you up for adoption because she could
not take care of you or herfamily could not take care of you because

(01:29):
her her family, my grandmother,actually got pregnant at the same time.
She wasn't a well woman and thefamily did not think she could have handled
raising two infants. So wow,So let's start about your childhood when how
old were you when you were adopted. I was born in September and I
was adopted in February. And Iwas adopted by an Italian American family,

(01:53):
Lucille and George Boto, wonderful people, and so they I was in flushed
care until they adopted me. Sowhen I talked to you yesterday, I
said, you're Sicilian and he said, how did you know? Well,
I was raised by an Italian family. But once I found my parents many

(02:14):
many years later, I found outthat I was totally Sicilian. So that's
exciting, right, It was exciting. So here's the deal. A lot
of people have heard of ancestry dotcom and they pooh pooh it, but
that's actually how you met your birthparents? Right? It was I had
a friend that was also adopted,and she asked me if I wanted to
do it, she was going todo it. It was like seventy nine

(02:35):
dollars and we said, yeah,let's do it. And that was in
the end of May. And inJuly I got a hit and it was
in ninety nine percent match and endedup being my brother Chris and Maderazzo.
And he asked, finally he gotthe courage to ask my dad, and
he asked if he had a childin the fifties and he said yes he

(02:58):
had, and he called me threedays later, and uh, and I
got to meet him. That wasAugust of twenty sixteen maybe, And then
I got to meet him Thanksgiving.He had my whole family over his house.
So it was a really wonderful experience. Was your mother still alive?
Then she was. And he gaveme my mom's name and I did not

(03:21):
find her on ancestry. My daughterCarla founder on Facebook. Wow. Yes,
so it was very That is nota usual scenario most people. Uh,
it takes a long time. Butfor I believe that that was exactly
God's timing because both of both thebirth parents only lived a year and a
year and a half after I metthem. So yeah, I you know

(03:44):
what, we have our time andGod has his time, and time is
always the right time. Yes.So how was it when you met your
father for the first time? Howwas it when you met your family members
for the first time? It wassurreal, It was wonderful. My father
was so welcoming, and he wasso welcoming to my mother, who was

(04:04):
my dad had already passed away.My mom came with us. They treated
her like a queen and I immediatelyfelt accepted, which was something I looked
for my whole life. And itwas a wonderful experience. They were very
just very open, very you know, hospitable to us. So I felt

(04:25):
at home almost immediately. So whenyou said your mother, you're talking about
the mother that raised you right withyou. Was she daunted by this at
all? Was she nervous? Andwell, I can tell you that when
I was thirty four, I askedher if I could start looking for my
parents, and she said yes,But then she and my dad and my

(04:46):
adopted dad was also alive at thetime, and then she called me right
back and she said, well,but I'll still be Stephen and Dana and
Carla's grandmother, right. And Iknew in my heart she was not ready,
and so I laid it down.And then when I was fifty eight,
we were visiting her in Ormond Beachone day and she said, would

(05:08):
you like to see your adoption papers? And I had never seen them before,
and I realized that it was time, you know, because I never
wanted to search for my parents andhurt my because I had a wonderful mother
and father. They were wonderful tome, and I have a sister,
e Lane. I had a greatchildhood, so I didn't want to do

(05:28):
anything to hurt them. My mainneed was medical. I wanted to know
about my medical uh. And Iknow this sounds funny, but you kind
of want to know what you're whatyou're going to look like when you get
older. You see the similarities.And I was afraid if I waited too
much longer, they would be youknow, at fifty eight, they you
know, they were in there maybelate seventies, and I was just worried

(05:49):
that the time would run out.And so once I saw that I had
my mom's approval, we called anagency and we paid six hundred dollars.
We were going to pay another sixhundred dollars, and then my friend called
me about ancestry and that agency actuallydid nothing. They I never even heard
back from them except for their othersix hundred dollars. So the ancestry really

(06:12):
worked out really well. And ofcourse you have to have people looking for
you on ancestry, and my dadhad had was looking for a part of
his family. Is the only reasonthat the DNA was on there. That's
amazing because how old was he?He was in his seventies. See a
lot of people are not even thinkingabout being on the computer or seventies.

(06:33):
They're very intimidated by that. Sohe really was motivated to find you,
I believe. So he had hadliver cancer and they gave him ten years
to live after his transplant, andI think it was nine years when he
met me and he died the nextyear. Wow. Yeah, So I
believe that that was all in God'stime. Now, how old were you

(06:56):
when you were told that you wereadopted? Because and this is going to
be a multi pronged question, howold were you? My parents told me
from day one they read a book, a special book that the nuns had
given my mom about a family thatwent and specifically chose, you know,
and it's so it made the childfeel very you know, wanted, wanted
because you know, they chose meand they talked about it. I was

(07:20):
an only child till I was seven, so they had a lot of time
to feed into my soul and makeme feel accepted and everything. And so
they told me from day one,and I don't I'm sure I didn't understand
what that meant, but I knewthat I was not there their natural child.

(07:41):
But at age seven would if youwere in that situation, would you
have waited longer or would you havedone it sooner? I believe that it's
best to tell the child from dayone. I've had friends that were adopted
and the parents didn't tell them untilthey were older, and it was really

(08:01):
a horrible experience for them. Whenthey went to search for their parents,
they you know, they just hadhorrible experience and it affected their life forever.
Sure it does. I would imaginethat feeling abandonment with those people never
go away without I do. Andyou know, children, adoptive children always
feel no matter what the circumstances areof their home life. You always feel

(08:22):
like that feeling of rejection is alwaysthere, even though you know that your
love, The idea that you knowsomeone didn't want you is always with you.
And so I had to work manyyears on those feelings. And it
wasn't until I was probably forty fourand I was at a church service and
an older lady who had adopted fitfor me, and I feel like the

(08:43):
spirit of rejection came off of meand then I was I don't think if
I had searched before that, IfI had searched with those feelings, I
think that it would have been reallyhard on me. So it's something a
child always feels. And I feelthat God has given me the ability to
see rejection in the students that Iteach and the ministry that I had with

(09:07):
orphans in Mexico. Those children.It does not matter how much you're loved
by the people that raise you,and I am so appreciative of my family
that raised me, there is stillsomething that you feel. You're you feel
like you're not enough, and that'ssomething that is very hard. So and

(09:28):
I think the longer you wait,the longer you hear. If you know,
if somebody waited to tell a child. I think that it for that
reason, it's even harder. Iagree. Did you have other siblings?
I ended up having six birth siblingsfrom your mother and father that adopted you.

(09:48):
No from my mother and father.I have one. I have Elaine,
and we're very close and she totallysupported me through all of it.
She even came to my dad,my birth dad's funeral. They they supported
because I made sure that they knewthat no matter what, they would always
be my family and that, youknow, it was a need for myself

(10:11):
that I just needed to see youknow, where I came from and who
I was, and you know,but they were. My sister was veriou
is supportive. Did you ever askyour father did you ever think about me
in all these years? Did youever ask him? That I did?
And he said he did, buthe didn't know how to find my mom
and he didn't and my family,my mom's family, had asked him to

(10:35):
stay out of my life and andhe did. He said he always felt
a little bit of guilt on that, and when he found out that my
birth mom was very hurt for years, it affected my birth mom tremendously.
He even called in apologized to her, but she had already gone down many
roads that really hurt her, andshe ended up having six more children.

(10:58):
She was a lovely woman. Sheaccepted Christ when in nineteen eighty two,
so I when she died, Iknew she went to heaven, but she
it affected her very badly, andwhen I met her well, she kept
on saying was I'm sorry, AndI finally had to say, Mommy,
you don't have to say you're sorry. You know, like I turned out
okay everything, you made the rightdecision because that decision was taken completely out

(11:20):
of her hands. She even wentback to the orphanage after the period of
time where you can't get the childback, asking for me, but they
said it was too late. Soso she really suffered a lot. She
did suffer, like an appendage wasgone, Like there was always that loss
and that hole in her heart asonly a mother could have. That's right.
It did affect her so psychologically,I'm sure a lot it did.

(11:45):
It really affected her, so shesuffered a lot of emotional She was a
sweet, sweet lady, but shedid go down a lot of the wrong
roads in her life because of it. And it so can you expound on
that or do you feel comfortable enoughto tell us what happened? She married,
She married very quickly, an olderman had the six children. He

(12:11):
left her and she had to survivemany years trying to support well the children.
And so it was very very hardon her, and she then she
went into other relationships that really weren'tthe best for her or the children,
just because she I don't know whyreally the reasons that she did those things,

(12:31):
but she always kept her children together, she always supported her children.
But she was looking I'm sure shewas looking for love, yeah, because
she was hurt. She was veryhurt. And so I have that spectrum
of my mom's family, and I'mvery close to my aunt that's eleven days
older than me. We have avery close relationship. But and then my

(12:54):
dad's family was the total different spectrum. They're just very upbeat, successful.
It's just the two different sizes.It's it's just to see that, which
is normal, because you know,no one's mother and father are they It's
normal. But coming that laid intothe into the picture, it was a

(13:16):
lot to accept. It was alot to take in, and I had
to realize I couldn't fix my momat seventy something years old, the choices
that she made. I couldn't fixher, and with my mission hard I
wanted to, but I couldn't,you know. I just prayed with her
all the time and talked to herand tried to encourage her, but I

(13:37):
couldn't fix the decision she had made. So that that was hard. That
was very hard. Yes, Andin my dad's funeral, when people came
all the way from Hawaii to hisfuneral, I realized there was so many
years I don't you know, Imissed, you know, I only knew
the older Ernie. I didn't knowthe younger Ernie, the successful businessman in

(13:58):
Hawaii. I didn't know any ofthat part of him, and so it
was really it was a lot totake in. So let's talk about forgiveness.
Did your mother say will you forgiveme? Or did your father?
Did they ask for forgiveness from youmy mom? Did? I think my
dad and I clicked so easily thathe knew, he knew that I had

(14:20):
nothing against him. It was itwas just a feeling like he never verbally
said I'm sorry, but he justdidn't. But we our relationship was close,
automatically My mom said it so oftenthat it made me feel so sorry
for her because and I told hershe didn't have to, because even her

(14:43):
children will say, you know,I really was My adoptive parents saved me.
Well, God saved me, butthrough them he allowed you know,
I was saved. I was savedfrom all the the life that they suffered
from. And so she said I'msorry so many times, and I felt
I did feel finally, like Isaid, momm you don't have to say

(15:05):
that anymore. You know, Ididn't have anything against her anyway. And
how old was she when she gaveyou up? She was fifteen or sixteen.
My dad was like seventeen. Andthe stigma back then, right,
Stima's disgusting, disgusting. She hadhard time. That's why she was sent
away, which was very hard forher, very hard. She talked about

(15:28):
that or was she sent to Itmust have been something associated with Mercy Hospital,
Catholic charities, yeah, participated inYeah, And I feel like she
uh and she was alone, shewas completely alone, and that, you
know, I do. I feelsorry for her because I understand that I
sort of repeated her history and gotpregnant in high school. So I do

(15:50):
understand that shame that she went through, And I think that was all part
of God's preparing me for the ministrythat I would end up being in.
So it's hard to say that youunderstand unless you actually go through it.
So do you think that it brokeher spirit when she had to give you
up? It just broke her andthat's why she had so many other children

(16:10):
trying to fill that void. Ido. She says that her husband forced
her to have those children. Idon't know if that's true or not,
but I think she I think shewas broken to the to the end.
Her life was not easy at all, and she comes from a very successful
family. My grandfather and grandmother andmy aunt and uncle and all that.
Her family was not a they weresuccessful, they're wonderful people. I think

(16:37):
she always felt that she let themdown, and I think she felt broken,
Yes, for sure, right andif and back then they didn't have
the support systems that they have.Now we know so much more about psychology
and we're more empathetic about these situations. So when you got pregnant in high
school, how old were you?Sixteen? Did you keep your baby?

(17:00):
Did a wonderful son named Stephen Stephen, I love that name. Yes,
And did you marry his father?I did, and I had another child
named Dana, and that marriage didnot last. God led me to nationwide
insurance and which led me to mycurrent husband, Roger, and then we
had another child named Carla. Nowthat's a handful sitting over there, that's

(17:23):
a handful. You two are perfectlysuited, yes, And I can see
why he lifts you and your spirit. You know, he says dynamic as
you are. You guys are perfectlysuited. So let's talk about I want
to go through this because we havea very high teen pregnancy in this county.

(17:45):
It's huge, it's enormous. Socan you walk me through what happens
so other women can hear your story? When you were sixteen, you were
sent away to have the baby.Was anybody with you? When I was
not sent away? My mom was, oh yeah, so I was not
sent away. No. I hadvery loving parents that helped me through that
process. I did. But Ithink it all goes back to searching for

(18:10):
love, searching the same thing thathappened to my mom. It's that same
h you know, somebody flirted withme, made me feel good. About
myself and then I fell for thelies, and which is really what happened
to my birth mom. It's kindof the same and it is the same
pattern. So you fell in lovewith a narcissist, is what you did?

(18:32):
Yeah, well I fell. Ifell in love with a very hurt
person, a very hurt person.So okay, Uh was he ever present
in your children's life? Yes?And he still is he was. Uh.
When I got pregnant with my daughterDana, he did leave, and
then I was a single mom forfive years. And then uh, I

(18:56):
got I met my husband, Roger, and he took my children, Dana
and Stephen, and we moved toAlabama. And after that God gave us
a wonderful life. But all thoseexperiences I ended up using in either my
teaching or in my ministry, everyhurt that I went through, because being
a single mom in New York,for those that many times working two jobs,

(19:19):
it was a very difficult road.Even though my mother and father were
always there, I still was tryingto do it on my own, trying
to go to school. Made surethat I found every thing that I could
do, every benefit from the stateof New York to go to school,
and everything else because I knew thatI had to. I had to make

(19:40):
it. I had to, youknow. And then I had a boss.
I went to work for a nationwideinsurance as a secretary and one day
he said, I think you shouldbe an agent. You need more money
for your children. And I wentbecame a nationwide insurance agent. And that's
where I met my husband at aconference and at our training center in Ohio.
So which you know that all thosethings have helped me when I ministered

(20:04):
to mothers that are going through thesame thing where they say they can't make
it, well, yes you can, you can make it and uh,
and you know, the whole timeI saw it. You know, it's
the hand of God that kept me, you know, to kept me safe,
that protected me, that pushed meforward because he had a ministry for
me to do, which I wouldbe using my experiences as an adopted child

(20:29):
to help other to help orphans,to help you know, other people that
were down trodden and women that uhand homeless, so all the forgotten,
all the people that that are hurting. Now when you you had you got
pregnant at sixteen. Were you seventeenwhen you had your first child? And
you stayed at home with your parents. I did, uh, I didn't

(20:52):
stay at home with my parents.I married that I married their dad and
it lasted for twenty nine thirty months. Maybe how old was he? Four
years older than me? So hehad the ability to get out and get
a job at his age. Yes, And he's always been there for the
children. He was just he justhad a very hard life and he emotionally

(21:17):
couldn't connect and it was very difficultfor him. So yes, So,
so your parents had to have beenwonderful people to accept that. And I
know I can hear it in yourvoice and see it in your eyes.
They never chastised you for that,did they. They were very accepting of
that, very accepting, and theythey they were always there for me.

(21:37):
Now they actually wanted me to livewith them and raise the children. But
one day they heard them calling mymom and dad, mom and dad,
and I knew that I had todo something on my own because they were
my responsibility, even though I knowI had their love and support, I
had to do something right, youknow too. And so we moved out
and for a while it was veryrough until I got that job as a

(22:02):
nationwide secretary. It was. Itwas very hard, but they they were
always there for me. I couldhave called them if I had an emergency.
They and see many people don't havethat support system. Oh that you're
right. That's why I want youto tell this story because most people do
not have it. That's right.And I don't even know if my daughter
would want us to say this.But then our daughter Carla ended up repeating

(22:26):
the history also, and so youknow, and that is a general I
feel like that's a generational curse thatthat was passed down and the Lord has
broken that, thank God. Butshe was very she's very successful and had
a child and is married and veryvery successful, and she went on but
she had our support, and soI don't think I would we would have.

(22:49):
I don't know about Roger, butif I hadn't had my parents' support,
I don't think I would have.We would have known what to do,
right, you know, because Iwas already a pastor, and some
people saw that as you know,a horrible thing. And she would say
I had to take her pregnant toUH to church conferences and stuff, and
that I never rejected her. Soit's the love of my adoptive parents that

(23:14):
helped me with that. Yes,so you really passed down beautiful lessons that
you can do it. You cando that. Yes. So do you
counsel people that don't have resources thatare pregnant? Do you counsel young women?
No, but she's actually working ina pregnancy and I have. Yes,
I have done that. I've donethat more on the mission field than
i have done it here in theUnited States. But yes, as a

(23:37):
pastor, I've I've had that opportunityto do that. And we have great
resources in our town. In fact, my friend that asked me to do
to look with her to suit theirsearch on ancestry. They have Youth for
Christ and they have a team.They have a teen ministry there that for
pregnant mothers. So there's the resourcesin our daughter Carla does it also,

(24:00):
so yes, and it's so needed. So I'm sitting here thinking, boy,
the pendulum swings because one hundred yearsago, to have a child at
fifteen or sixteen was normal, yes, and then women came onto the scene
where they wanted to be educated,have their own money, do their own
things. So that was taboo nolonger accepted. So we are rewriting history

(24:26):
as we go. And I wantto ask you your opinion, and you
don't have to give it to meif you don't want to. But what
do you think of this Roe v. Wade that's going on now? Where?
Just fill me in exactly on where? Like, for instance, Nancy
Pelosi cannot take communion because she believesin abortion. She thinks that everybody should

(24:49):
be able to have abortions. Well, I believe abortion is not God's will.
I do believe the Christian community heneeds to step up in a dot
more if that's going to be somethingyou know that is going to if it's
going to be effective. But Ido believe and I do not believe that

(25:10):
abortion should be used the way itis being used for birth control. For
birth control, you know, Ido not believe that, and it's not
a popular belief, but I haveto stand on what the Bible says,
and so I do not believe thatit's it's uh, I don't believe that
that is, like you said,used for birth control. Now, I
do not. Well, if youever watch any of these videos, and

(25:33):
my first life was a medicine,and when you see that little teeny tiny
heartbeat and their little fingers. That'sa human being. Yes, it is
a human being. Yes. Andyou know we all have read and seeing
the stories about the doctors that decapitatea child at nine months when they're coming
out of the birth canal. Thosedoctors need to be in prison, have

(25:56):
their license taken away, and getout of our society. That is the
most archaic thing and it just drivesme crazy. I can't even think about
that. But we need to doa better job to minister to those women
too, because, like I said, if I hadn't had the support,
you know, who knows what itwould have happened. And there's so many
women that get put in that position. You know, they find themselves pregnant

(26:19):
for whatever reason, whether it wasjust for whatever reason. We need to
be ministering more to those those andget them before they make those decisions,
because you know, life is ablessing and it's a gift from God.
And there's so many girls out therethat places like Parenthood and places like that
that don't tell them the truth aboutreally what it's going to do to their

(26:41):
lives. This is true. Didyou see that undercover reporter when he was
interviewing that woman that was selling bodyparts, and she was talking about the
Lamborghini she was going to be ableto purchase. Can you believe that we've
gotten to that level in our societythat we're going to sell stem cells,

(27:03):
placentas body parts for somebody to buysomething. We saw that. We saw
that in Mexico where people would tryto adopt children and they ended up being
on the black market. So yes, we can we talk about that at
the black market? Can we talkabout that? Because I don't We're so
far removed we can't even imagine.And I grew up in Turkey as a

(27:25):
little girl for many years and Isaw a lot of this, and that
was years ago. So a lotof people here have no idea that this
has taken place for centuries, fora long time. So what's been your
experience with this? We've had whenwe were doing our mission work in Mexico,
we would have people that would comeand wanted to adopt the children,

(27:45):
and there was a couple of timesthat we were allowed to be in on
those interviews and see how the people. And one of the doctor Chaves that
ran the orphanage had a sense thatthere was something wrong with one of the
couples that came and he stopped.He stopped allowing them to come as often.

(28:07):
And then when they found out thatthey were part of a ring that
was actually selling body parts for children, they would adopt them and then they
slaughtered them, basically. So itwas a shocking revelation that that would even
exist, and so they had tohave better ways of Mexico has to have
better ways of you know, uh, scanning those not scanning, but the

(28:33):
background checks and stuff on that kindof stuff, because they don't allow a
lot. It's very hard for Americansto adopt in Mexico. And so when
they see a wealthy Mexican family thatwants to adopt, you know, they're
all over it because they're thinking,this is it. These children would have
a great life, and it didn'talways work out like that. So perhaps

(28:53):
these people became affluent for the wrongreasons, and that is not okay.
I have a girlfriend who has nowretired, but she was a gatekeeper.
Her husband is a fertility doctor.She's a lawyer and was a gatekeeper to
adopt children in the poorer area inKansas City, Kansas. And I said

(29:15):
to her one day, do youever get feelings that those children should not
be adopted out to those parents,and she said all the time, what
do you do about it? Istop it, yes, and I do
yes extensive background checks, and shesaid, my gut is never wrong.

(29:36):
I am right. So I alwaysapplauded her for that, because there will
never be another jan But she's gotthree boys, and she fostered those children
and loved them very much. Butwe are living in some of the craziest
times right now, and for youto put out information, for you to
have personally experienced that this is notlike CNN or one of these other liberal

(30:02):
networks that just kind of pushed itunder the rug, like, oh,
it's just happened. This is justour world today. No, it's not
our world today. It is not. And there's going to be so much
blowback from this because God's got hishand hovering over Washington, DC. And
I cannot wait to see what happens, because we've heard these stories exactly what

(30:22):
you're talking about, bringing children overfrom the border. They have found so
many bodies that have been mutilated forthe Organs. I know, it's such
a shame. It's the children havealready gone through rejection and weren't living very
wonderful lives to begin within those orphanagesand then to experience that and just to

(30:44):
imagine, you know, they thoughtit was going to be great and they
were gonna, you know, havea great life, and then what happened
to him. It's just, youknow, I just the only thing that
gives me solace is they're going tohave to look at God in the face
someday. That's right. It's theonly thing that gives me solace knowing that
those types of people exist. Soit was it's really horrific, really really
horrific. Well, the ports,any port in the United States, you

(31:07):
always have smuggling going on and alot of crazy things when you start going
down the rabbit hole and it's onboth sides of the aisle, and it
needs to stop, and we needto have everybody involved in that. So

(31:27):
tell me about your ministry. Well, God allowed me to start doing Thisian
work in Mexico, and I wascalled into the ministry when I saw the
orphans because I knew that, youknow, God had blessed me and that
if I had a chance to actuallydo that, that that would be wonderful.

(31:49):
And it started me going with otherchurches, and then it evolved into
us starting Hopes children and basically takingchurches down there to teach them how to
do mission work. And it waswonderful. It was a wonderful experience.
One of the things that I lovedthat happened out of it, though,
is that people, you know,because everyone's not called to do foreign missions,

(32:14):
and some of the people came backand started their own type of mission
organizations. Some of them went toChina and adopted their own children. There's
so a lot of things came outof that. You know, I have
to reflect on that because it didstop, but and all the things that
came out of it. As youknow, my grandson Jeremiah came out of

(32:37):
that. So that part stopped.And then at the same time, God
was allowing me to start an Hispanicto help start an Hispanic church. It's
a Wesleyan Hispanic church, and andit's really the same thing that we ministered
to people that are basically overlooked orthey're forgotten. They feel very they like

(32:59):
kind of go under the radar mostof their life. They don't feel very
accepted. And so I actually fitvery well into that. Moving from New
York to Alabama. As Italians,we were not very well accepted and we
were prejudiced against and stuff, andso God was preparing me and my children
who worked helped us with the ministryto experience that so that we would know

(33:24):
how do these people actually feel?And so that's one of the church.
I think we started in nineteen ninetynine, so it's been around for a
while and many ministries have come outof that and we are starting, you
know, trying to start more ofthe same ministry. So God has been
very good to us and that.So if people want to donate to Hope

(33:45):
Mission more ministry, Hopes to Children, Hopes to children, how do they
do that? Well, we dohave a Facebook page, and we did
have when we were running our missionorganization are like house, we had a
website and everything. Right now,you'd have to go on to Facebook,

(34:07):
and there's not a lot of updatedinformation on that because basically that was our
foreign part of it. So that'sbut they could they could still go on
Facebook and they'll see Hope's children onthere. So how did you become bilingual?
Well, I feel like that's anotherway that God prepared me. I
always kind of as an adopted child. My name was Pharaoh F E R

(34:30):
r O. Birth name that couldbe an Italian or an Hispanic name.
I really thought all those years Iwas Hispanic, and I kind of migrated
towards having friends that spoke Spanish.So I started actually in New York speaking
Spanish. And when I moved toAlabama, I my husband had an insurance

(34:52):
agency and for me to inherit itor take it over if anything happened to
him, I had to have adegree. So I went back to school
and I just decided to study Spanishand actually became a Spanish teacher from that.
So it was a little bit ofI had a lot of knowledge about
it. I was able to speakit before I moved and and then I

(35:13):
had to study obviously have to studyit to teach it. So yeah,
so that's helped you in your industryalso then, right, oh yes,
And translating really is one of thethings that gives me the biggest joy because
it's such a need, especially inthe schools. I love to go in
the schools and help the Hispanic familieswho don't want to go into the schools

(35:35):
because they can't speak the language,and try to be like a bridge from
the American society to you know,into the Hispanic society. Even with our
church for years there was that's whatI did. I translated for the pastors
and was like an ambassador for themalso. So I feel like that's one

(35:57):
of the things that God allows meto do. That is, uh is
something I really enjoy because language separatesus and when people want to help people,
you know, in that way,it really helped. The people are
so appreciative because you imagine if wewere if you were in a society where

(36:19):
you couldn't speak or you you knowwhere that was something that I think that
really helps out a lot. I'dlike the Tower of Babel, right,
Yes, it is so and that'ssomething Once I retire from teaching, I
think that something I would really liketo do is continue helping the parents,
the Hispanic parents in the in ourschool systems because they need more representation and

(36:40):
they need to be able to beheard. And even sometimes when the when
the school systems have a translator,like a professional translator, just because you
speak the language, if you reallydon't understand the culture, you can assume
that you're saying something and they're goingto understand it. But that doesn't always
happen than like in special ed meetingsand stuff where it's very technical. The

(37:04):
language is very technical and there's alot of terms that even as an educator
sometimes I have to say, whatare they saying? It's it's something that's
needed because the parents, if youdon't understand that you're maybe translating for someone
that has a fourth grade education,Even though you speak their language, it
doesn't always help them to understand thetheme or the or the subject matter.

(37:29):
So that's something I think all theyears of working with the Hispanics, God
has given me a much more.I can understand where they come from and
their needs, and so that helpsa lot. So what's going to happen
with all the Hispanics that are comingfrom Mexico over into this country? What
what do you foresee happening with thatpopulation? That's a very loaded question.

(37:53):
Our immigration system does need to berevamped, and it's it is. It's
a hardship on our country. Butand if you've gone there, you will
understand. You could understand why theywant to be here and they want they
want to make a better life,and they're starving and they're all the things
that happen in their countries, andso I feel like that's it does have

(38:15):
to be revamped. It's not aperfect system. It's still I think we're
still using some of the laws fromthe sixties. It does need to revamped.
Don't know if we need to havetotally open borders though, because it
puts stress on our country and it'sdangerous for the people. It is dangerous.
The process of coming over here illegallyis very, very dangerous for the

(38:36):
people. So I think we needto face those things. And I'm not
very political. I'm going to justtell you that right now. But I
do know what God has shown me, what He has shown the people that
we've brought down there. There isa great need. These people have great
need. But I don't it putssuch a stress on our country, on

(38:57):
the hospitals, on all of thethings, the schools and everything. But
I do believe that God blesses usto be a blessing, and so they're
something has to be, something hasto change, and it's just it's not
fair on both sides. Actually,so right well, they should be doing
more on their end. They helppeople, because you don't see people in
droves trying to go over there,right, they need to fix their problem.
They do, and and for me, the thing that's the hardest is

(39:22):
the children, what they face,and the knowing because what happens is many
times people cross over and leave theirchildren there to send money to their children,
and then they live with you know, and then they're in this kind
of situation I was in where they'renot living with their real mother and father,
and then there's the rejection and thenall the stuff. So it's a
very complicated, very complicated subject.And so we really do have to pray

(39:45):
that we have some that we havesome change in our in our rules.
And also if you look at immigrationpeople coming out of Hispanic countries, it's
very difficult for them to become citizens, to become residents. The process is
not easy. Yet we do makeit easier for other other countries. So
and I don't I mean, youcan statistically look at that and it's a

(40:07):
truth, and I don't know whythat truth exists, but it's very it's
a very hard. It's very hardon the people because people always say to
me, oh, those people inyour church, they need to become citizens.
Yes they do, but the processis not our country is not looking
for the poor. And even thoughwe expect the people to do all the
menial the jobs that they're doing andwe need those people, they're not is

(40:30):
open to those people coming in.And they're more open to the people that
are going to come in and studyand everything else. And yet those people
go back to their own country anddon't use that knowledge in our own country,
many of them. So it's likeI said, it's it's such a
working with that population. We neverask people's statuses. I don't think Jesus
would have done that either. Butthey're here. If you come to our

(40:53):
church and see they're hard working peoplethat are here to do the best for
their families and they're here pray,seeing God and doing the best that they
can. I lived in Turkey forseveral years. We've lived all over the
world. My mother was British.I've never seen a culture that is more
family oriented. Yes, in theHispanics, they love their children, they
really do. Yeah, you know, they try to keep them together if

(41:15):
they can. What happens like whenyou're watching the news and you see a
mother handing a child over the fenceto somebody, and she doesn't make it
over at the same time, whathappens to that child. Well, a
lot of those children are put intothose camps and then they're putting into foster
care or they try to find relativesfor those children. I know the parents

(41:37):
think that they're doing the best fortheir children doing that, but then they
end up in our systems, andI don't know if their life really is
that much better without their own parents. So very, very tricky, very
We had incidents in Birmingham years ago. Years ago, we had very strict
rules in Alabama, and there waschildren that were holding up signs saying what

(42:00):
happens to us? And these werekids that were born in the United States
whose parents could be deported and theywanted to know what's going to happen to
us, which was a valid question. Yet nobody answers that. Nobody wants
to answer those questions. So Ithink we have to walk in the shoes
of some of these people before wedecide. Because this country was, you
know, was established on immigrants,and so I think we should be the

(42:22):
ones that would want to make thingsright. But it's so complicated on either
side. So it's a very difficult, very difficult side. It's just gotten
out of control. It's like therewas no plan in place, you know,
let's just throw some stuff on thewall and see what sticks and what
doesn't. And it's like these peopleare almost like human experiments. And I'm
not down for that. I thinkin a horrible The senior pastor of our

(42:45):
church, he's here on a religiousthing, he's doing it on the legal
right way, and he applied forhis residency and it's it's it's going on
over almost two years now. Hehas heard nothing thing out of that.
So when they even do it thecorrect way, are it's such a bureaucracy
that there's so many people that applyingthat it's so backed up, and so

(43:13):
even if you do it the rightway, it's still a very slow process.
It's very slow process. It's veryslow process. And I want to
join in on that with you becauseI have a personal story to tell you
about that. My daughter in lawis Brazilian and she practiced law in the
banking industry in Brazil and she decidedI'm going back to school. I don't

(43:35):
want to be a lawyer. Iwant to get into the business realm.
And what my son went through withimmigration and jumping through all the hoops.
I was absolutely blown away. Hereis a productive person, she works in
our corporation, she's bilingual, shecontributes so much. But they put every

(43:58):
block in front of her. Butthey prevailed because there was no other way
for them except to be together,right, and to do what these people
have done. And you hear allthese stories about these children being in cages.
People are saying, oh, that'snot true. Oh, yes,
it is true. It is verytrue, and it's it's very scary when

(44:21):
people in our church, when theytell us their journey into the United States,
many of them enter legally and thentheir visas might expire and they have
to go back to their country andask for permission for forgiveness, and they
come back in the horror stories thatwe have heard, and it's just horrific.

(44:42):
The coyotes that bring them across.It's you just wrote that down,
Yeah, the coyotes that bring themacross. Uh. You know many of
those people never make it, youknow, where they're supposed to be making
or there's just their destination. Theynever get there. It is a horrible
process. And I feel like thatwe when we went to those strict rules

(45:04):
in Alabama. I was coming toFlorida. One day, I was sitting
between two businessmen, two Christian businessmen, and we were talking about they had
nobody to pick the crops, andthey were asking Americans to do it,
but we didn't want to do itbecause it's very hard work and how many
you know, tomatoes was going torow out. And they had very strong
opinions against the people here being hereillegally. And I stopped them and I

(45:27):
said, I was sitting in themiddle eleven. I was like, I
really need to tell you what it'sreally like. And I shared some of
the stories of the people that Iknew, and they were shocked for you
because they were, you know,wealthy businessmen and they were Christians, but
they had these opinions of the peoplecoming across and they were very close minded.

(45:47):
And then when they heard some ofthe stories, how no, you
can't just you know, apply foryour residency. And you know the lottery
system that even if you wait yearsand your number comes up, your date
comes up, and then they goto pick your If your numbers not picked,
it's put back into the lot ofjust horrific things. They didn't know
anything about that, and I thinkthat's something that I think that needs to

(46:13):
be made public. We need morepeople saying, you know, these people
would love Most of these people wouldlove to be here legally. They would
love to have their you know,so they're not having to run from immigration
or just scared of losing their children. But it's not an easy system and
they have to either know someone thatin America that would sponsor them or have

(46:37):
their own money. And if theyhad their own money, usually they're not
coming here. So it's it's veryAnd they said they were going to go
back to their church or was Churchof the Highlands and Birmingham, Alabama,
and they were going to speak totheir pastor about it because they had never
They didn't know. They absolutely didnot know what the people were going through.
And they were of the same idea, they're here to take our jobs,

(46:59):
but know the jobs they're doing mostAmericans don't want to do. Where
are these politicians to come out andspeak about this. Why have they not
educated themselves on what you're talking about? I don't know. I'm not sure
about that. In our I eventhought one of the things I was going
to do, I was going tostudy to have an organization that helps the

(47:21):
people to get their citizenships and theirresidency. And I started reading, like,
started studying it. It's such acomplicated thing, and I'm not sure
I'm the person to do, butwe sure do need more people helping the
people, and we need more politiciansthat care enough to say. But that's
the things that a lot of peopletalk about when they're running, and then
when they get into office, nothinghappens. Of course, that's the typical

(47:44):
politicians, right, Yes, so, well, this is gonna be a
story that's going to make your heartvery warm. The largest roofing company in
Kansas City hired approximately two hundred Hispanics. I have my favorite roofer that has
done so many favors for me,and I was saying, how can those

(48:05):
guys beat your prices? I don'tunderstand. Well, he said, let
me explain what happens. The Hispanicsthat are here are forced to live in
the housing of the people that ownthis roofing company, and they make substandard
wages way below so they took themajority of their money. It was like
slave labor. Well, the twoowners are now in prison. Oh,

(48:27):
and that's why they should have been. There were so many people collectively in
the community that said, no,this is not going to happen. We
are not allowing this to happen.So they did a sing operation and it
took a while to catch them,but they got them. But that was
so disgusting to me that you blood, sweat and tears. We get a
lot of phone calls Deborah, Iused someone to clean my house, And

(48:50):
when you ask them what they're goingto pay, they want people that do
well, that are honest, thatare you know, faithful and responsible,
but they want to pay them lessseminim in way age. And whenever some
calls me on there, I say, no, they deserve the same thing
that Americans get for cleaning houses.That's not that's not fair, that's not
that's slave labor, and it's terrible. So I think it's an attitude that

(49:12):
in that we It just it's anattitude in the United States that I don't
know that many people have. AndI'm not sure where that comes from,
but I do know that it probablydoesn't come from a heart of God.
I do know that for a factthat the people that are that have those
kind of prejudices, because if youread the scriptures, God made a lot
of allowments and is for a lotof allowance for the for the people from

(49:37):
other countries that were in Israel,and that how we were such a trip
them, And so I do notfeel like that's a that's God's heart now.
Of course it's a much bigger issue, like we talked about. It
affects everybody. So it's just somethingthat I feel like that more people need
to hear and more people need toknow the facts about and they need to

(49:59):
be educated because where does prejudice comefrom? Ignorance? That's right? Now?
Let me ask you this, Whatwould compel somebody to tell you that
they want to pay somebody five dollarsan hour to be a maide When the
bread's gonna cost the same, thewater is going to cost the same,
steak's gonna cost the same, vegetablesare going to be the same. Why

(50:19):
would they think that somebody does notdeserve the standard salary that a regular housekeeper
would. Where does this mindset comefrom? I don't know. It really
boggles me because most of the peoplethat are calling are people that have money,
and where they think they I don'tknow. It's the same the same
mindset of slavery. It's it's it'sa they're lower than us, They're they're

(50:43):
they're not the same. I thinkthat people feel like that it's a superiority
thing, and it's it's you know, some people just want to save money,
but that's not usually the reasoning.It's a prejudice. It's a true
prejudice. Being an adopted lady,you can empathize with these children that they
things were happening to, you know, the litany of emotions that were they're
going through. Yes, and howtragic to not have hope. You had

(51:07):
hope. A lot of these childrennever have hope. That's right. Talk
to me about is that Jeremiah thatyou're adopted grandson. He's from Mexico to
he's actually born in the United States. His mom was adopted with her three
other sisters by a family in NewJersey, and so he was actually born
here, but his mom, youknow, is Mexican. He was.

(51:29):
But we took care of those fourlittle girls for years in the orphanage.
My daughter and I had had arelationship with them. And when when Jeremiah
was born, his mom was notcapable of taking care and she said the
only person that she would give herchild to, wash Tea Dana, which

(51:51):
is Aunt Dana, which is mydaughter and my daughter. It took a
long time. It was not aneasy process, but they got Jeremiah.
He was they took actually took whenhe was six months. I can't remember
how long it was after that,maybe a year after that before they actually
legally adopted him. But but wealways felt like Jeremiah was our gift from

(52:14):
God because, like I said,Jeremiah twenty nine eleven was our mission.
You know, I know the plansI have for you, says the Lord
plans to not to harm you,but to give you a hope in a
future. And Jeremiah was like ourlittle glimpse of hope, like that we
something that we did actually made adifference, and that God was actually giving

(52:36):
this child to my daughter, andit was you know, he's a blessing.
He is a blessing. So youknow the litany of emotions that he
has to go through, yes,being an adopted child. Yes, And
you really are more prepared to handlethis than other parents or grandparents would be
because you've got the answers. Yes, and you can say, look where

(52:57):
I came from, look at me. Yes, I understand his feelings of
not belonging, and I can understandthose feelings and that's all that comes with
rejection. Yes, yeah, soyes, yes, And I'm just really
blessed to have him so and I'mhoping that God's going to give us the
opportunity to, you know, justfeed into a soul. And you know
how cruel children could be, Yes, very cruel. Yes, And we

(53:21):
are living in some crazy times.I never thought that I would see these
times. And you know, shameon these politicians for taking us down the
wrong roads. It's not right.And I do believe that God is good
and I think he's got his handover us right now, and I think
that he's going to bring a lotof this crazy stuff to the end because
I've read and seen so many differentdocumentaries on children that are enslaved underneath the

(53:45):
capitol. People say it's not true. Okay, you believe what you want
to believe, and I'm going tobelieve what I want to believe. Right,
we live in This is like timesof Julius Caesar, right when pedophilia
was legal, right, I mean, pedophilia is it's still legal in Greece,

(54:06):
so, you know, until weget a worldwide thing going here,
and look at this Jeffrey Epstein,with all this stuff. You know,
you do get caught doing these things. Yes, and there is an end,
and there's a bitter end for many. Yes, I believe that's true.
Well, I would like to encourageooe. Anyone that's listening that was
adopted to would I would really encouragethem if they can do it is to

(54:30):
search if they feel the need.Not all children feel that need, but
if they feel that need that itreally does help bring closure. And I
feel that it may not be thesame story like mine was. They may
not have the happy ending like Idid, but it does bring closure and
it does help you to know whereyou came from. And that's important because

(54:52):
even though once we're adopted by Christ, you know, we are the children
of God and that's the best adoptionwe can have here on earth. I
think it's a need for a lotof people, and people are fearful of
doing it because they're fearful of beingrejected again. But I think there's a
lot of important things that you canlearn from that. From costarts. You're
going to reject any of us,that's right, We're all perfect in his

(55:14):
eyes, that's right. And I'llclose on this story, which you can
choose to go along, or youcan choose not to. But I was
at a cocktail party and my positionwas there, and he was talking about
this daughter that he had adopted andhe was having all these problems with her.
And he told me, and acrowd of us said, he said,

(55:36):
I could have bought a new votefor what we paid for you.
And I said, I cannot believethat you just said that. As a
human being, I can't believe whatyour daughter has to live like. And
you can't be my physician anymore.I was so angry about that because I
could imagine the hurt that that girlhad inside. And you can better believe
if he told us that he saidother things to her. That's hard.

(55:58):
I want to know about disgusting.Yes, And this is an educated,
cultured man, So it happens inevery strata of society, every strata.
I do. I believe that too. That's horrible, though. It's horrible,
and I am so glad that youare able to dispense beautiful information.
And I think that your voice hasbeen soothing to many many people out there,

(56:19):
and they're going to relate to thisand you're going to be surprised when
you get an outreach sometime. Canyou tell us your number again? Two
O five six five seven five threeone nine. Thank you very much.
I appreciate you. Thank you.There's been a pleasure. Hi, Zoe
Harrington here. Join me on ninetyeight point seven FM. We're fourteen forty
am on w G I G fromnoon to one o'clock on Saturdays to hear

(56:43):
Zoe's Superstar of the Golden Aisles.Listen to amazing stories from amazing people.