November 12, 2024 • 54 mins
We studied the top 150 podcasts to give you the most comprehensive breakdown of what’s working today, and where podcasting is headed.
In this episode, we’re discussing:
Connect with us:
Benji on LinkedIn
James on LinkedIn
In this episode, we’re discussing:
- Why personality-led shows are taking over
- How YouTube’s algorithm is the biggest cheat code to growing your show
- Why video might be the only path to breaking into the top 5% of podcasts
Connect with us:
Benji on LinkedIn
James on LinkedIn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There are three massive shifts that are happening right now
that will define the future of podcasting, and you need
to know about them. So we studied the top one
hundred and fifty podcasts to give you the most comprehensive
breakdown of what's working today and where podcasting is headed Today.
We're going to talk about why personality led shows are
taking over, how the YouTube algorithm is your biggest cheat
(00:22):
code to growing your show, and why video might be
the only path to break me into.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The top five percent of podcasts.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Everything we share in this episode is data backed by
our first ever State of Video podcast report. We get Sweetfish,
the company behind B to B Growth, have produced over
three hundred and fifty remarkable podcasts. We've created ten thousand
plus episodes. We've racked up twenty two million downloads, accounting
in fact B to B Growth has over five million.
(00:51):
We took a look at the top one hundred and
fifty podcasts across the overall and the business categories, Top
seventy five and overall top seventy five in business, and
now we want to share our biggest takeaways and what
it means for your show.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
So if you want to dive even deeper into the numbers.
Go grab the full.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Report at sweetfishmedia dot com slash State of Video podcasts. Now,
let's get to the show, James. We have been doing
some data collection and I want to give credit to
our team.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
We put a lot of work in to get here.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Page. Put an enormous amount of work into this thing.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Page.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Shout out to you and everybody who's had their hand
in this. Why was it so important for us to
do our first ever State of Video Podcasting report?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Here's the deal, Benji. We in B to b Land
are trying to win a Formula One race in a
go kart. It's really easy to buy into this misconception
that with our media we're only competing with the other
people in our that are selling a product like us,
(02:03):
and so we are not just competing with other shows
about content marketing. We're competing with Andrew Huberman talking about
health and brain brain stuff. We're competing with Tom Brady
giving his two cents on last Sunday's set of football games.
(02:24):
We are competing with the best media in the world,
and we are not studying what the best media in
the world is doing in B to b Land. But
that's who we're competing with. Ye, Like, mister Beasts has
nothing to do with B to B content marketing, but
he is reaching the same people we want to reach.
(02:47):
And there's only so much time that people are spending
scrolling on these platforms every day. So we have to
be able to package our content, format our content, think
about our content in ways that the best in the
world are doing it so that we can compete with
them because it is a competition for the attention of
our buyers, and our buyers are consuming things way outside
(03:10):
of things that are helping them get better at work.
That's just the part of their life that we're fitting
into as B to B companies that produce content. And
so through that lens, we wanted to study that. We
wanted to study what are the top one hundred and
fifty podcasts in the world, not in B to BRIGHT
in the world are doing, so that we can learn
(03:33):
and start to help B to B companies apply those
principles in the content they're creating.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, it's like what is transferable, right, because there are
some things that are so far into entertainment that you're like, Okay,
we're not trying to just entertain We're trying to educate,
which is really why we came up with this data
collection and like our methodology for this report, so I'll
break that down really quick to give people context. We
(03:59):
wanted to study, yes, the top podcasts, we also needed
to specifically look at business because we want to figure
out what's transferable from both and know that we are
competing in both spaces. Right, Like the riches are in
the niches is still very much true if you are
really niche down, you know your area of expertise and
you can create highly compelling, wonderful looking media.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
That's the sweet spot. That's where you want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And so what we did, and I'll read this to
make sure I get it exactly right, but we analyzed
one hundred and fifty top ranking podcasts, so split evenly
between overall top shows and business on Chartable rip actually
a right twenty four But thank you Chartable for a
coming in plutch for this report.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
We'll figure it out next year, all right.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
We included shows with a bunch of different varying formats,
content types, differing ranges of data points that we're about
to break down. We listened to one hundred hours plus
of top ranked video podcast guests and focused on identifying
the successful elements from production to engagement to storytelling. And
(05:08):
then two more points here, surveyed over two hundred business
podcasters looking for insights on what's going on in the industry,
how are marketers thinking about it, creators and thinking through
qualitative context into this data. And then the last point
here to explain what went into this is we reviewed
(05:28):
year over year growth trends. So we tracked how video
adoption is impacting discoverability. You're going to hear about YouTube
in this episode for sure, thinking about audience engagement, thinking
about revenue opportunities, and that all is in this One
thing you and I found interesting that I did want
to get your take on is when you start analyzing this,
there's weird shows, like how do you categorize this show?
(05:52):
It's like it's a branded podcast or it's this person
who's kind of personality led How did we can you
share a little bit about that, like how you're thinking
about these shows and the categories or buckets they fall.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Into it all.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, before I share that, one other element for how
we put this report together, we looked at a lot
of other smart people that are doing research in this space,
and so that informed some of our insights as well.
So I don't want to take credit for every insight
that we share here being this thing that we figured out.
A lot of smart people have done this work. To
(06:26):
your point about how we bucketed the shows, we had
to figure out, like, Okay, how do we classify these things?
How do we talk about this type of show? And
we went back and forth a lot on this, and
ultimately where we landed is you've got shows that are
driven by a personal brand, and those shows tend to
(06:52):
you cannot take the host out of the show and
it still be an effective show. So you're looking at
my first million. You can't take Sean and Sam out
of my first million and still have my first million. Right,
you can't take prof. G. You can't take Scott.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Out of prof G very much personality very.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Much personality led. So you've got these personal brand, personality
led shows. Then you've got media brand shows. So these
are shows that you can extract the host. It's based
on a premise probably a lot of storytelling, a lot
of storytelling news. I think about Wall Street Journal's show,
(07:33):
so they do like a narrative. They've always got a
team of reporters that are doing these stories for their
media publication, and then they're able to take the work
that those reporters are doing and tell it in a
really good narrative way on a podcast that you don't
even really know who is reading it or who's hosting it. Like,
it's not really a personality led show. It's a premise
(07:54):
driven show. So you've got media brands that are driven
by a really strong, compelling premise. I think about business Wars,
where they take two iconic companies and McDonald's versus Burger King,
and they tell the story of that content.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Great storytelling, great rarely.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Telling, and it's a great premise. It's a great angle
to explore stories. There are endless numbers of iconic companies
that have competed with one another over the years, and
that's fascinating. I don't necessarily care who's delivering the information.
I want the story to be good. But then you've
got branded podcasts, and branded podcasts are more explicitly designed
(08:34):
to bolster awareness for the company producing the show. We
didn't see a lot of branded podcasts in the top
one fifty, but there's one called The Moth. It's a
storytelling podcast, and the Moth is a essentially like a
storytelling facility. I think it's in Saint Louis, I forget
where it is, but it is a brand. It is
(08:54):
a company. They charge people to come in and hear
different people tell stories and.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Events actually all over the place.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, so that's one example of a really great branded podcast.
So that's how we bucketed it. We've got branded podcasts,
you've got media brands, and then you've got personal brand.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And branded like maybe not in the top one fifty,
but a good example would also be like Bigger Pockets, Yes,
Bigger Pockets.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Brandon he got his start I'm forgetting his last name
right now.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I follow him on Instagram, But he got his start
on a branded show and then it was like his
personality actually led him to finally leave there because his
personal brand got bigger than the branded show.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And you see that actually a lot like Guy Ross.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You probably didn't care about him when he was narrating
necessarily for NPR.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
He was just a really good storyteller.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Then his next show was very much his personality that
they branded it around him. And so you see those evolutions,
which makes some of the research we were doing harder
because you're going some of these are on.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yeah, it's bleeding the edge, I would even say, And
we went back and forth on this, so I don't
actually know. I can't, off the top of my head
tell you how we classify Bigger Pockets because I would
think of Bigger Pockets as a media brand because now
they have a collection of different shows. Yeah, they've evolved
that are that are that are premise based? Yes, like
this concept. I even noticed with one of their shows
(10:19):
it talks about like it's like rookies in real estate,
and they've had multiple hosts over the years, so they are.
They are a media company, and so so that was
a tell for me. I'm like, Okay, if this is
a media company, it's likely going to be a media brand.
There are some personality driven shows that get gobbled up
(10:39):
by media companies because media companies just want attention and
so but if you those those are risky acquisitions to
make in my opinion, because as soon as the talent leaves,
you know, Vox going and getting prof g if he
decides he wants to go and live on an island
for the next year, you know that that show doesn't
work without him.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I think think could be interesting to just pose a
couple questions here before we move into into the research
and just get your opinion. So one of them was
the rise of video, how do you feel like it
has changed? Without going straight to data, but just like
you're seeing it, we're seeing it. You're thinking on video
changing the podcast landscape and the advantage there any thoughts
(11:23):
before then we go like, Okay, here's just from the report,
straight up data, because we're watching it before our eyes.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Yeah, So, I think the biggest thing for me is
the thoughtfulness that you have to put into pre production
now that video is the primary distribution mechanism for your show.
So we've always said there's a discoverability problem in podcasting.
We've always known that the only people who are consuming
(11:53):
your show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts are the folks
that have already found your show somewhere else and follow
it on those platforms, So you are only distributing that
content to the existing set of followers that follow that
RSS feed. What video unlocks is the ability to now
(12:14):
tap into social algorithms and YouTube algorithm to get exposure
to audiences that would have never otherwise known that you
exist because the algorithm wants to feed their users new
content that will keep those users on the platform longer.
And so the way you think about packaging video content
(12:34):
on those platforms, it matters a lot, right, Like the
first three tenths of a second on an Instagram reel
can literally change the trajectory of whether a video gets
thirty views or three hundred thousand views, which is just
mind boggling. And so the scrutiny that you have to
put each episode through in pre production from an idea standpoint,
(12:58):
is this a strong enough idea? What is the hook
that we need to be able to bring somebody in?
Because the idea could be great, but if we don't,
if we don't have a compelling hook, nobody's going to
watch it. Thumbnails titles, I feel like we talk about
that stuff at nauseum and the circles that you and
I are running in calling it samir folks that study YouTube,
(13:18):
I feel like a broken record talking about title thumbnail
hook Like it's like, God, how many more times do
we need to say that? But it is obvious to
me that B to b Land is not paying attention
to that because you look at the content that they're
putting out and it is not reflective of what actually
needs to be paid attention to. And I think we'll
get there, and we're going to talk about that later.
(13:40):
How AI is impacting this and what AI is doing
to search and what where where marketers attention is going
to go when they're no longer focused on optimizing for
a keyword in search because people aren't searching in Google anymore.
They're finding their answers on chat, GPT. Well, now, what
do we need to do with our effort? We have
to start optimizing for video. So eventually they're going to
(14:02):
get there. It's going to get more competitive, but I
think we're in this sweet moment right now where if
you're an early adopter in B to B for video,
you've got a real opportunity to separate yourself from your competitors. There.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, first data point I want to talk about from
the State of Video Podcasting report is seventy percent of
people now say that they prefer watching podcasts not listening.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
That number is very high. And if you listened to
podcasts for the last decade plus, you are probably shocked
by that number because you gained your habits, your listening
habits in a time where video was not an option.
And so I've seen this even in the circles that
I run in where I just will ask a friend
(14:51):
how do you consume content? And I think people don't
even realize sometimes they got sucked into a content like
black hole of someone where they're watching a podcast, not
thinking about it as a podcast, They're just watching a
show on YouTube. And that kind of rise of those
types of audiences where it's like people are talking it
to them into a mic in a room about something
I'm interested in. I might not necessarily immediately go to
(15:13):
this as a podcast, it's a video show, or they
don't even care to define it, but their habits were
formed in a YouTube age where they watch and consume
their content that way. And I'll say, as someone who
has loved podcasts for a long time, I now fall
into this category where if you pulled me, I would
say I prefer having the option to watch.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I don't have pulled up in front of me exactly
how they pulled this group of people, but I will
say having the option to see it but then click.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Your phone off.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So like on a Spotify where the video is an
option or on YouTube, I have it on in the background,
or I'm cooking but it's on my TV. Like that
type of optionality is only gaining in popularity. And people
having the ability to like rewind thirty seconds because they
were doing something else but they want to see that
moment in a show is more and more common because
streaming is easier than ever, so you could have high
(16:07):
quality video content. The functionality on your phone's getting better,
watching it on a TV is getting better because more
people are recording at a higher quality. Like this stat
rings so true. Now there's a second part to this.
Less than twenty percent of podcasters are actually using video,
So seventy percent want video podcasts, twenty percent are using it.
(16:28):
Think about the advantage there to let's say a personality
led brand to say, yes, you're spending a bunch of
time with me, listening in your headphones, and now for
the most important moments of our show, you're actually watching
this thing happen in real time. Like this makes video
a non negotiable going into twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
That we have to.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Be thinking more about is, yes, the content will always
be king. Do you have a good premise, a good idea,
but once you're actually making that content. It being recorded
in video is not like a nice to have, it's
a need to have because that's how people want to
consume content.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
That's an interesting point that you make that I don't
want to gloss over doing video on a bad idea,
a bad premise, a bad angle is not going to
magically make it a better idea. And I think that's
a common misconception in B to B land just add
video to it.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Well, not even just add video to it. Let's go
pay someone. This is specifically true for businesses. Let's go
pay someone to make a really glossy looking I would say,
spectacular produced video that says practically nothing. That is for
people who will only consume it if they're solution aware.
(17:44):
They're not even you haven't even thought about is this
problem aware content?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Where does it fall in the funnel?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Like we're guilty of we need a video for X
part of our product, we go make a glossy video,
and B to B can make some glossy looking videos. Again,
value low substance and thinking about that in podcasting matters
a lot, because I don't want to see more shows
pivot to video and think that that's going to solve
their content problem.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yep, yeah, yep, I completely agree. Even the shift we've
made with our clients of going stop doing interviews, start
having conversations, meaning stop interviewing a new guest on every
single episode it's an industry expert in your space, and
start doing co hosted commentary with you and a regular
co host, probably from the same company, where you can
actually articulate your point of view over and over and
(18:33):
over again in different ways through different trending things that
are happening in the minds and lives of your buyers.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So one thing that this stat got me thinking is
what are the situations if any where audio only shows
will still thrive or still work. And Tim Ferris so
far as one of the only people I've heard like
(19:01):
and he's still doing more video on YouTube now, so
maybe his strategy has changed even since I heard him
talk about this. But he talked about how he cares
less about how his video podcasts look, and he has
the advantage and the leverage of ten plus years of
doing great stuff, but he just talks about, if I'm
going to be great, I can choose any lane to
be great in which I do think is still true
(19:22):
in the future. There will be people that thrive in
an audio only format. It's just way, way harder and
there's so few amount of people like interview shows. You're
not advocating that no interview shows will thrive in the future.
You're just saying what makes the most sense for people
in B to B to be doing, And it's very
clear co host a commentary is the way. So to me,
(19:44):
I think there's a small contingent of people who are
so good at like a storytelling or a narrative style
show that would be really hard to produce in video
that will still work in audio. But that number continues
to shrink. And so if you think that that's going
to work for you, you better really have some advantage
that you're taking, like you know you're going to be
(20:05):
great at this, because it's getting harder and harder to think.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I could see to push back on that a little bit.
I could see a world because of how good AI
is getting, where there is this influx in really creative
ideas that can be fully executed with AI. In Google's
notebook LM, yeah, if you've played with that at all.
Our friend Dan Sanchez, former host of the show went
(20:27):
through and took three hours and did an eight episode
podcast series on iconic marketing legends. So Ogilvy seth Godin
and did these like eight to twelve minute episodes, dropped
it on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and it was that.
It was the co hosted commentary style from the Google
Notebook LM. But it was good content. He did his
(20:49):
research on chat GBT. He obviously knows these marketers, he
studied them, so he's like, there are some factual inaccuracies
that he had to clear up in the episode description,
but for the most part, it was pretty good. And
that's today. Who knows what's going to happen a year
from now. So I could see there being because the
barrier to entry on audio shows like that is lower,
it increases the volume of them. And then in the
(21:12):
increased volume, obviously a lot of them are going to suck,
they're not going to have interesting premises, but there's that
it's also going to increase the number of good ones.
So I could see a future where audio continues to
be relevant because of the wide swath of different angles
and ideas created from a lower barrier to entry of
everybody being able to do this just with AI.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
The other solution here which audio first, Like speaking specifically
to Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Here, what y'all should have
figured out forever ago was discoverability.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, because the push to YouTube didn't wasn't inevitable.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
It could have been that Spotify and Apple podcast solve
the video problem. But even with Spotify adding video, they
still have a discoverability problem that YouTube is helping solve,
which is why people are moving there. It's not just
everybody now wants video shows. It's that plus the discoverability issue.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And I don't know why that is. I don't know.
Like when I am scrolling through Spotify, I want it
to surface other shows that I might be interested in.
It's Buried man, and It's Buried They've dabbled in it.
There are parts of the UI where I go, oh,
that that could be an interesting show, and it's typically
(22:29):
from a big media company. There's probably some sort of
paid thing going on in the back end to get
that show exposure on that particular screen or whatever. But
I've oftentimes like, oh, that is an interesting show. So
I've said before Spotify I think has the best chance
at it because they're so focused. The fact that they've
(22:50):
put such a huge pots focus on incorporating video into
the podcast platform is very interesting to me. They just
seem to be more funocused on solving the problems of
this medium, more so than Apple podcasts. But I so
I'm excited for them to figure it out. But there's
(23:12):
I would there's got to be a reason why they haven't,
because you're exactly right. YouTube has solved for something that
these two platforms obviously have not even attempted to solve for.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yep, Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
So this next thing we're going to talk about, it
turns out, Benji, YouTube isn't just a podcast platform, it
is the podcast platform. So in twenty twenty four, YouTube
actually overtook Spotify as the number one place that people
discover new podcasts, which is wild.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
If they weren't valuable enough already.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Right, So, and here's the kicker. Most shows on YouTube
on YouTube are still audio only shows, and that is
partially because Google podcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Okay, now Google podcast goes away, but they like made
this whole push of like, oh, we're going away from
what we were doing with there, and we're pushing everybody
to YouTube. But that number is staggering, like, yeah, you're
on YouTube, you're expecting video and then you click and
it's audio.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
We did it. Okay, We've got hundreds of episodes of
this show. I think we've scraped them now that were
just the B to B growth logo with audio playing
over it.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Uh and obviously that you know that was that was
years ago. People used YouTube differently. It wasn't the same
platform it is today. The algorithm has transformed in ways
that you know, nobody would have thought. But yeah, I
just I just think this is crazy. So my question
for you around this, Benji. Should creators be building for
YouTube first and then optimizing for other platforms?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Okay, this is one of the hardest things to make
the pivot on. So if you are just starting as
a creator, I think you should optimize for YouTube and
then let that be transferable to Apple podcasts or Spotify or.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
These other platforms.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
When you think in a YouTube first or a video
first strategy, it can have this like upstream effect that
the other content coming off of it actually makes sense
if you do it the other way, where it's like, Okay,
we're a podcast and I'm thinking about this as like
an audio show, but we'll add video or oh, well,
I guess we'll try to pull some clips from this.
(25:30):
It's way harder to use that content and get effective distribution.
So if I'm really prioritizing like strong hooks, if I'm
prizing storytelling in my episodes, or personality led content, or
better motion graphics or whatever, all the things that we
talk about when you're trying to execute a video strategy
(25:52):
for a podcast, if I do all of that, well,
you know how easy it is to export that file
as an audio only thing that sends to other platforms.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Your storytelling is still great.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
All the content that, all the work you put into
pre production, all of that still stands true. If you
go we're going to do an audio first approach, or
we're going to think in old school podcasting terms, where
the first five minutes it's just kind of random banter,
or it's pretty discombobulated and like we have this long
ranging conversation, it's way harder for, especially in business. Hear
(26:26):
me say that, especially in business, to see success with
that kind of show on YouTube or on these other
platforms where people are searching you out for video. So
to me, if you're a creator, right, now you build
for YouTube first knowing that you can distribute that content
on other platforms, and it makes micro videos easier, it
makes repurposing that on platforms like LinkedIn and all these
(26:48):
other social platforms easier.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
So I would be optimizing there.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And I'll say this for the content marketers that have
grown up in this industry being focused on written that
ranks in Google, I would not let this be scary
to you because I think the root of really great
video content actually requires great writing. So when you think
(27:16):
about great like we are doing this episode right now
because of a really well written outline that has hooks
baked in for every single segment of this episode. And
I think good writing is good thinking translated onto digital paper.
(27:37):
So being a great writer is I think a massive
advantage for being able to produce good video content.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
It's also never been harder to be a great writer.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yes, because you are now competing against AI, so you
don't have to compete against it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You can use it to your advantage. But what we're
seeing is just because you are a.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Great writer two years ago, if you weren't an early
adopter in how you think about and use AI, very easy.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
To be left behind that usage of essentially critical thinking.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
With AI with someone who is a great writer facilitator
of that content. I don't know that there's ever been
a better time for that skill set. It will help
you with video. The other thing is if you already
have been doing these blogs for I mean, SEO is lit.
I mean my friend who started his SEO agency, I
(28:33):
think he started at twenty ten. I mean it's been
a long time that people have doing this. You have
this bank of content that you can go back through,
pull out interesting points, dissect what would actually make sense
for video content, and you already have the beginnings of
something that can be modified and edited into video first.
A video first strategy that should be your thinking is
(28:55):
how does this give me an unfair advantage? Because I
have this whole bank sitting here that can now be
translated into this new thing that's going to also grow
the personality of our brand and.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Put a face to it, which is so exciting.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
And it's really easy to get to think that, oh,
video that means I've got to be great on camera.
But that's the advantage of being in B to B
is in B to B it's much more about the
substance of what you were actually saying, and the expertise
in the space and the credibility you have in the space.
This is not an entertainment channel. You don't have to
(29:29):
be this bambastic figure on camera. You have to actually
know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Okay, So I think someone's going to listen to this show.
Here what you just said, compare it to what you
said ten minutes ago, and go explain how these things
are do line up? Because I'm jumping through the hoops
with you and I see how they line up. But
some people are going to watch this and they're going
to go, Okay, James said, I'm competing against the Andrew
Chuberman's of the world, the Calling and some mirs of
the world. And now he's saying, but in B to B,
(29:57):
I don't have to be focused on being, you know,
mister b. But people might scroll past my video to
go back to mister beasts. So how the heck do
you balance both of those? I think it's super important
to realize if you're truly niched down and you know
your content well, people are seeking out the solution that
you have. So if you prioritize problem aware, people are
(30:18):
aware that they need to solve a specific thing and
you have actual deep level expertise and knowledge on that topic.
There is a group of people out there searching for that, wanting,
that desiring, that would rather watch your video than mister
Beast's video. If you can do it in a compelling way,
that's the synct There is a way to compete just
(30:38):
based on the knowledge that you actually have and getting
good at storytelling. It's really basic stuff. So yes, you
are in a way competing against the best of the best.
But the more you niche down, the more likelihood you
are the leader in that small circle and people will
come back to you. You will get repeat viewers because
you know what you can do talk about and it's educational.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
And the best of the best are.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Deep experts exactly. Andrew Huckerman is a deep expert.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Scott Galloway is a deep expert. Sean and Sean and
Sam from My First Million are deep experts. These they've
sold companies for tens of millions of dollars, so that
that deep subject matter expertise matters a lot now. And
those guys are good storytellers. Cal Newport like these. There's it. Yeah,
(31:29):
there's uh there's a lot to be said here, but
I don't want it to be discouraging. At the at
the end of the day, you're gonna suck the first
time you do this. It's about getting reps and sets
in and getting better and better at the on camera stuff.
But if you've got deep subject matter expertise, you are
starting from a really, really good position.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
All right, everybody is still doing interview shows, and I
think it's crippling video podcast growth. And so I want
to give you three important data points around this. Number one,
sixty five percent of business podcasts are interview based. But
(32:10):
listen to this, storytelling and solo formats are actually driving
the most engagement, which leads to the second part that
I wanted to surface here. Shows that focus on personality, Right,
personality driven formats are growing at a thirty percent higher rate.
So put those two together and you get this third part.
(32:32):
Seventy six percent of branded podcasts use interviews as a
way or they're thinking, is this is going to help
me with thought leadership? Again, you have sixty five percent
of video podcasts doing the interview show thing. They're just
all right, we're doing another interview, bringing another person. Shows
that focus on personality like content growing at a way
(32:54):
higher rate thirty percent higher. Seventy six percent of branded
podcasts using a show that does interviews, hoping fingers crossed.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
That it's going to work for thought leadership.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
What's the problem with this with this data set, If
seventy six percent of branded podcasts think that they are
growing their thought leadership by bringing someone on in spotlighting
that person in an interview style show, the breakdown is
you can't really be a thought leader if you just
do interviews. The best people are at least at minimum
(33:27):
they are doing conversation style shows if they are bringing
on guests, and I'll shout out Jay Klaus here when
he does a show, even though he brings on people
that are experts in their field, it is always a
conversation and that's why people stay for Jay. So if
you're one of the sixty five percent that are doing
(33:50):
interview based shows, your first move may not be we're
just going to completely kill this and go immediately to
co hosted commentary, though there might be room for us
to discuss how someone would do that. Your first move
would at least move to a style And I've done
this with multiple hosts. We're going to just make this
a conversation. This is your show, tell me a story.
(34:12):
Take two minutes if you're interviewing someone and just actually
have a thought, and if you can start there, you'll
start to see the power which as you.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Do this more often, you're going to see.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Okay, actually co hosted commentary or these styles that James
and Benjerier are so often talking about, they do make sense.
They do need to be part of our strategy. So
I gave you all three data points. Talk to me
a little bit about how you're thinking about this. You've
already mentioned co hosted commentary here, but I think this
presents a pretty clear picture.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
This is where we're at. So this data comes from
a study that data Box did a few weeks ago,
and I got to be a part of this live
call that they did breaking this down. And this was
the when I saw this data pop up on the screen,
jumped out at me crazy, Like seventy six percent of
the folks that they surveyed, I think it was one
(35:05):
hundred and forty shows said that brand awareness or thought
leadership was the goal. Yet sixty five percent of their
formats were interview based and We've been preaching this for
so long that it just it became glaringly obvious to me.
(35:27):
And when I mentioned this, there was a guy that
pushed back and he was like, oh, no, like James,
you know, he was very flattering. He was like, oh,
you know you're the og in this.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Type of pushback.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah. Yeah, he was very flattering. But he was like,
but I have to disagree, you know, because I've done
over two hundred interviews and it has been really effective
for my business, and it's and it's and it's grown
my business. And I totally understand that. I wrote a
book called content based Networking.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I think it's somewhere I was gonna grab it somewhere back.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yeah, this book literally talked about using interview base shows
to build relationships.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
That's why I was hired was just to do that
three years ago, so that.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I completely get that in B to B Land that
strategy does make a lot of sense. But I had
somebody reach out to me afterwards. I had a lot
of people actually reach out after that live call and
they're like, thank you so much for saying that, because
so many people on that call were small business owners, consultants, solopreneurs.
(36:29):
That type of person does benefit greatly from doing an interview,
base show and interviewing their prospects, because one or two
deals a month for a business like that has a
huge outsized impact. One or two deals for a one
hundred million dollar software company does not move the needle
(36:51):
for that business. A larger mid market, enterprise sized company.
They want to shape the market. They want to transform
how their market is thinking about the problem that they
can solve. You don't do that by doing onesie two, Z,
three Z interviews with people that could sign, you know,
(37:12):
even one hundred thousand dollars a year contract with you. You
need a bigger You need to influence at a wider scale.
You need to build brand. And when she said that
we were just going back and forth via LinkedIn DMS,
I was like she articulated something that I hadn't quite
got to like. I was like, there's something off here,
(37:32):
because yes, content based networking still makes a whole lot
of sense. I built Sweetfish on the back of content
based networking. If you are listening to this and you're
a solopreneur and you're trying to get consulting gigs and
one or two deals a month could change the trajectory
of your livelihood by all means, go and interview prospects.
(37:53):
And you know, you don't need the content to shape
in entire industry. But for the folks who're trying to
work with, they are trying to shape markets, and to
shape a market, you have to do the stuff that
you and I are talking about a lot. Now.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
I want to talk about implementation for this real quick
before we go to the next data point. And I
also want to say, if you are a consultant or
a small business owner, the advantage of mixing in some content, right,
so maybe in your case it does make sense to
go talk to prospects. I would still push back that
you need to put in some monologue style shows or
some co hosted stuff, because that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Becomes sales enablement.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
That becomes I like the way James thinks so much
that I want to do business with them. If you
had mixed in some of those while you were busy
running around chasing all those vps of marketing, but you
were like, this is my thoughts on my big bets
on media.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Funny story there, dude, we were in the throes of
doing interview based shows and I started a series called
Behind the Curtain, opened the episodes with like BTC or
something like that, and I was just talking about the
behind the curtain of Sweetfish, and we were learning as
we were going the business. I kid you not. That
was a season in the business where I was interviewing
Gary Vee, I was interviewing Noah k All, the big
(39:04):
interviewing Simon Sinek. I mean the show. The show at
that point was getting ranked by Apple Podcasts and like
it was, it was a top one hundred marketing podcast,
and there was a lot of notoriety publishers reaching out
to me wanting to feature there people on our show
because of the influence of the show, and those interviews
with those massive names were getting like our little solo
(39:27):
episodes of the Behind the Curtain series was getting three
x the downloads, three x the downloads of people wanting
to hear me talk about my little baby business that's
building in a garage apartment. And that I think is
the essence of why you have to take seriously this
other style.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Of cons So that is perfect that I'm so glad
you gave that example so that I would just mix
in those episodes you don't have.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
To get rid of what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
If you're a consultant, small business in the content based networking,
play still works. If you're a big business and you're going,
how do I pivot? I'm part of the sixty five percent.
I'm still doing interview style shows. I can lay out
that roadmap for you. I would pick two three topics
that you can batch record with the current host and
an smme and your business, get a two hours on
(40:10):
the calendar and record those three episodes in one batch recording.
Talk about after you do that, how did it go?
And watch how those episodes both perform, but also how
comfortable those two people are if they already know each other.
I guarantee you it's going to go better than it
usually does. How that can give you just like a
head start. Some people think they have to go all
(40:31):
in right away. I've found helping companies just test this,
they see it naturally progress. So we're not telling you
just have to pivot your strategy overnight, though we wish
you would. But you can easily test this with like
two hours and recording a few episodes in this style
and just watching what happens.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
I'll mention something Benji. I was just talking to Ben
from our team about this. Last night. I was listening
to a client of our shows, coming back from picking
up babys at daycare yesterday, and I'm listening to this show.
This is second episode that I was of listen to.
They recorded their first season in this room that we're
in right now a few weeks ago, so the episodes
are starting to come out, and I'm listening to the
(41:09):
show and it's co hosted commentary, and I was so
overwhelmed at how different the quality of this show was
compared to when I used to listen to client shows
even six months ago, doing interviews. And it just dawned
on me that the stark difference in listening to a
(41:35):
B to B company do a co hosted commentary show
versus listening to a B to B company do an
interview based show. I hate throwing out the word authenticity
because everybody throws that word out and it's eye rolling.
But there was a sense of these hosts on this
co hosted commentary show was listening to yesterday when you
(41:57):
were talking to a friend or a coworker or a
colleague that you have history with. It felt as soon
as I heard the first line of the show, there
wasn't this.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Fake.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
I'm trying to impress you. I'm trying to put on
my best look so that you think I'm awesome, glossy persona.
I could just tell I was listening to two women
who knew each other, who knew their craft, jamming on
the future of their industry or what's inspiring them creatively,
(42:33):
and it just felt real, and it made me want
to keep listening to the show. And I know that
that small change that I think when they came inbound
in our sales process, they wanted to do an interview
based show like everybody else, so we want to interview
industry experts. I know that that one small difference changed
(42:54):
the tone and trajectory of that entire show. So when
we talk, when you hear us talk about co host
and commentary all the time, it is not like it
was very disruptive to our business to shift to this.
This is not like, oh, they've got this agenda because
of what they sell. No, we changed what we sell
(43:14):
because we observed this happening the best shows on the Internet,
and when something is different here, what we are doing
is not building the kind of affinity that we know
these companies want to build and are seeking to build
by saying that we want brand awareness and thought leadership
in our in our to be a result. And so
I want to call that out because that these these
(43:36):
small shifts in format can have massive impacts on how
people perceive your content, your brand, the affinity that they
developed towards personalities inside of your company, and ultimately associate
that affinity with your company. So I'll leave that there,
(43:57):
But Benji w one question I wanted to ask you, like,
what what is something I guess you know. Are there
reasons that some companies could not pull off co hosted commentary?
Speaker 1 (44:12):
My short answer is no, I think that almost any
like pretty much every company can unless you're literally solopreneur.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
So but the longer.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Version of that, why some people would struggle at first
is because a lot of subject matter experts have been
trained to be so inward like product focused that the
content could suffer in the short term because you don't
know how to get out of your bubble and talk
about content in a way that's interesting to your audience.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
You're talking about it for the benefit of the company.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
So some people get into co hosted commentary, and the
coaching is you're talking about your product too much. You're
talking about again goes back to problem a where solution
to where people are thinking I'm almost presenting on a webinar,
we have to coach them out of that. So in
that case, can they solve it long term? Yeah, like
it still would work. The other thing is for co
host commentary, we're not saying you can't ever bring in
(45:02):
an outside expert. So in that case, yeah, if you
have two people that really know each other, you bring
in a third party for a couple episodes like that
still co.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Hosts commentarversation, conversation.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
So I actually would just push back and say, if
you think you can't do it, give me another reason
why you can't do it other than the one I
just listed, which just takes coaching to get out of.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
All right, this report made it glaringly obvious. This research
showed that consistency consistent posting is a critical success factor
when it comes to growing a show. Video podcasts that
(45:45):
prioritize quality and regularity are outperforming those that just rely
on volume. Yep, and the data is pretty overwhelming. So
eighty five point four percent of the time one hundred
and fifty podcasts posted video content regularly, and shows with
(46:06):
higher average viewer retention rates fifty percent or more, which
is really high. YEP grew thirty percent faster than those
focusing on posting frequency, So the folks trying to just
push out a lot of content not growing nearly as
fast as ones that are focused on keeping a viewer
on a video for a longer amount of time. No
(46:27):
podcast in the top one hundred and fifty group past
a million subscribers without a regular posting schedule, So consistency
is a minimum requirement. High engagement and high in quality
production are obviously the differentiating characters here. Seventy percent of
all ad revenue for video podcasts comes from shows that
post weekly or bi weekly, so consistency also impacts monetization.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Which I'm going to talk about it for that's huge.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
Yeah, So I mean this makes it yeah, this makes
it pretty clear. Should but should podcasters focus on scaling
up their production first because that's a differentiator, or should
they lock down a regular schedule before doing anything else.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Instead of being prescriptive here, I would just say I
think people fall into a few different traps. They go,
I'm going to post a ton of content, but then
they don't have a way of deciding after they've posted
a lot of content, how do I go back and
analyze what worked or didn't work and actually get better
from that? And then you get on a hamster wheel
of I just create a lot of content. None of
(47:36):
it's really working, but I can say I made a
lot of it, and like that is a very real
place to be.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
I've been there. It's a struggle.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
The other thing is you can double down on quality
so early and get worried about it not being excellent
that you never push publish. So you're really focused on
how excellent this thing is, but you never get to
a place of posting consistently.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
So what most people are going to tell you the
advice is just start publishing.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
My caveat to that would be just start publishing with
a way of reviewing frequently. If that is part of it.
Where to use atomic habits. You're posting regularly and you're
trying to get one percent better with each video, you're
gonna have a much different trajectory than doubling down on
quality too early and being afraid that your first video
(48:25):
isn't going to be absolutely spectacular. Last thing I'll say
on this quality over time should be something that you
have fun geeking out about.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Go deep on quality.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
And if there is an episode that you don't feel
like is up to.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Standard, I would This is my personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Now, I actually think on YouTube you could wait a
day and not push publish on the day that you
said you were going to podcasting in the audio format.
I think this is just user behavior, This is not
in the data. But I would say, and I would
ask if you resonate with this reach out. Well, I
think when it comes to audio, I look for specific
shows on specific days because I know when they come
(49:05):
out and when they're going to be in my RSS
feed videos. When I care about a creator, I don't
care what day they publish, and I know the algorithm's
going to serve me up videos I like, So I
would focus more on the idea and the quality of
that content.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
When I'm on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
That's just me for right now. Is I am starting
to obsess over the quality?
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Yeah? I mean I walked in to film this and
you guys were nerding out on the placement of that
pack man.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, we could have moved this Pacman machine like forty
more times if it was just me. So I need
James to be like, we need to hit record and
go tell you.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
But I love it. The evolution of where we are
today versus where we were even a year ago is
incredible to me. And we're starting to see the traction
that comes from that focus. We've had shorts that have
popped off. We're consistently getting new subscribers on YouTube and
it's having a big impact. But I still struggle. I mean,
(49:59):
even with my LinkedIn content, I'm cranking out a lot
of you know, daily posts on LinkedIn, and Anaka and
I still have not gotten into a rhythm where we
are regularly reviewing. It's so hard to do. Let's split
see them. Yeah, So in that skip step, can, I
mean can can cripple your growth for a really long
time unless you assess, like, okay, like anytime Annaka and
(50:22):
I meet, the first thing we need to talk about
what worked last week, what day?
Speaker 1 (50:24):
It's like the finish line is not publishing, the finish
line is reviewing.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yes, that should be like the standard.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
So yeah, okay, I'm going to hit this last one
quick because we need to go. We need to fly
and wrap this up in the last in the next
nine minutes. So my last point here, video podcasts are
making way more money than audio only shows. Video podcasts
drive fifty five percent higher revenue through sponsorships and visual
(50:52):
product placement. So this means that if you add video,
it's great for views, but it's also a revenue drive
as well.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
It could double your ad income.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
So if you're a creator who's really thinking about monetization,
this is video is the way to go because one
YouTube has a much more robust way of doing this,
but to product placement opens up a completely different door
for you. So I don't think we need to go
super deep on this one, but I do think it's
interesting if monetization matters to you, that the real money
(51:26):
is made in video shows.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
When it comes to video podcasting.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Where's video podcasting headed. We're predicting four massive shifts. The
first one. Co hosted commentary is going to take over
shows like Impulse Creator Support My first Million. They're proving it.
Audiences want dialogue, they want banter, they want conversation, not
(51:53):
just a one way interview.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
What about you, my prediction or what we're seeing. That
is going to lead to a lot of change. In
twenty twenty five. In person interviews are going to surge
over the next twelve months. So if you can capture
high quality content in person, that is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
We literally fly you in from Pittsburgh just to record
these just to record these episodes. That's how much we
believe in.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
That, and we're going to just see that continue to
skyrocket over the next felve months.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Care about your content and the depth of it, but
also video quality is going to keep getting better in
the first it is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Niche shows will have more and more value. It's not
about broad appeal. Top video podcasts are winning in niche markets. Association.
We associate Andrew Huberman with health science YEP, we associate
Peter Attiya with longevity like figuring out those brand associations.
(52:53):
HR shows, design shows, fintech riches are in.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
The last prediction here is that businesses are going to
go all in on a video first approach, especially with
the rise of AI. Video is a way to stand out.
It gives personality.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
To your brand and I think we're going to.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
See people spend a lot more money on this. And
also that personality led to shows that blend education and
entertainment are going to start to gain notoriety. We're going
to see it start popping off way more on LinkedIn
as they're adding video features. But businesses are going to say, yeah,
we're all in video first is our content strategy.
Speaker 3 (53:35):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
All right, let's wrap this thing up.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
Video isn't a nice to have, it's a need now
and hopefully this gave you a lot of data to
back that up. If you want the full report, go
to Sweetfishmedia dot com. What did we say the specific
r it's tweet.
Speaker 4 (53:51):
Fishers Media dot com slash State of Video Podcasts, State
of Video podcast We would love for you to get
the whole report, dive into all the data lots there
for you to digest.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Thank you, Paige for all your hard work on that.
We usually do a research roundup. You're not gonna hear
that today because this whole episode rear go get the report,
James take us out there.
Speaker 3 (54:13):
All right. So remember, whoever has the audience has all
the leverage. Commodity content is the enemy, and personality led
media is the way we're out
There are three massive shifts that are happening right now
that will define the future of podcasting, and you need
to know about them. So we studied the top one
hundred and fifty podcasts to give you the most comprehensive
breakdown of what's working today and where podcasting is headed Today.
We're going to talk about why personality led shows are
taking over, how the YouTube algorithm is your biggest cheat
(00:22):
code to growing your show, and why video might be
the only path to break me into.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The top five percent of podcasts.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Everything we share in this episode is data backed by
our first ever State of Video podcast report. We get Sweetfish,
the company behind B to B Growth, have produced over
three hundred and fifty remarkable podcasts. We've created ten thousand
plus episodes. We've racked up twenty two million downloads, accounting
in fact B to B Growth has over five million.
(00:51):
We took a look at the top one hundred and
fifty podcasts across the overall and the business categories, Top
seventy five and overall top seventy five in business, and
now we want to share our biggest takeaways and what
it means for your show.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
So if you want to dive even deeper into the numbers.
Go grab the full.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Report at sweetfishmedia dot com slash State of Video podcasts. Now,
let's get to the show, James. We have been doing
some data collection and I want to give credit to
our team.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
We put a lot of work in to get here.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Page. Put an enormous amount of work into this thing.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Page.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Shout out to you and everybody who's had their hand
in this. Why was it so important for us to
do our first ever State of Video Podcasting report?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Here's the deal, Benji. We in B to b Land
are trying to win a Formula One race in a
go kart. It's really easy to buy into this misconception
that with our media we're only competing with the other
people in our that are selling a product like us,
(02:03):
and so we are not just competing with other shows
about content marketing. We're competing with Andrew Huberman talking about
health and brain brain stuff. We're competing with Tom Brady
giving his two cents on last Sunday's set of football games.
(02:24):
We are competing with the best media in the world,
and we are not studying what the best media in
the world is doing in B to b Land. But
that's who we're competing with. Ye, Like, mister Beasts has
nothing to do with B to B content marketing, but
he is reaching the same people we want to reach.
(02:47):
And there's only so much time that people are spending
scrolling on these platforms every day. So we have to
be able to package our content, format our content, think
about our content in ways that the best in the
world are doing it so that we can compete with
them because it is a competition for the attention of
our buyers, and our buyers are consuming things way outside
(03:10):
of things that are helping them get better at work.
That's just the part of their life that we're fitting
into as B to B companies that produce content. And
so through that lens, we wanted to study that. We
wanted to study what are the top one hundred and
fifty podcasts in the world, not in B to BRIGHT
in the world are doing, so that we can learn
(03:33):
and start to help B to B companies apply those
principles in the content they're creating.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, it's like what is transferable, right, because there are
some things that are so far into entertainment that you're like, Okay,
we're not trying to just entertain We're trying to educate,
which is really why we came up with this data
collection and like our methodology for this report, so I'll
break that down really quick to give people context. We
(03:59):
wanted to study, yes, the top podcasts, we also needed
to specifically look at business because we want to figure
out what's transferable from both and know that we are
competing in both spaces. Right, Like the riches are in
the niches is still very much true if you are
really niche down, you know your area of expertise and
you can create highly compelling, wonderful looking media.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
That's the sweet spot. That's where you want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And so what we did, and I'll read this to
make sure I get it exactly right, but we analyzed
one hundred and fifty top ranking podcasts, so split evenly
between overall top shows and business on Chartable rip actually
a right twenty four But thank you Chartable for a
coming in plutch for this report.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
We'll figure it out next year, all right.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
We included shows with a bunch of different varying formats,
content types, differing ranges of data points that we're about
to break down. We listened to one hundred hours plus
of top ranked video podcast guests and focused on identifying
the successful elements from production to engagement to storytelling. And
(05:08):
then two more points here, surveyed over two hundred business
podcasters looking for insights on what's going on in the industry,
how are marketers thinking about it, creators and thinking through
qualitative context into this data. And then the last point
here to explain what went into this is we reviewed
(05:28):
year over year growth trends. So we tracked how video
adoption is impacting discoverability. You're going to hear about YouTube
in this episode for sure, thinking about audience engagement, thinking
about revenue opportunities, and that all is in this One
thing you and I found interesting that I did want
to get your take on is when you start analyzing this,
there's weird shows, like how do you categorize this show?
(05:52):
It's like it's a branded podcast or it's this person
who's kind of personality led How did we can you
share a little bit about that, like how you're thinking
about these shows and the categories or buckets they fall.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Into it all.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, before I share that, one other element for how
we put this report together, we looked at a lot
of other smart people that are doing research in this space,
and so that informed some of our insights as well.
So I don't want to take credit for every insight
that we share here being this thing that we figured out.
A lot of smart people have done this work. To
(06:26):
your point about how we bucketed the shows, we had
to figure out, like, Okay, how do we classify these things?
How do we talk about this type of show? And
we went back and forth a lot on this, and
ultimately where we landed is you've got shows that are
driven by a personal brand, and those shows tend to
(06:52):
you cannot take the host out of the show and
it still be an effective show. So you're looking at
my first million. You can't take Sean and Sam out
of my first million and still have my first million. Right,
you can't take prof. G. You can't take Scott.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Out of prof G very much personality very.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Much personality led. So you've got these personal brand, personality
led shows. Then you've got media brand shows. So these
are shows that you can extract the host. It's based
on a premise probably a lot of storytelling, a lot
of storytelling news. I think about Wall Street Journal's show,
(07:33):
so they do like a narrative. They've always got a
team of reporters that are doing these stories for their
media publication, and then they're able to take the work
that those reporters are doing and tell it in a
really good narrative way on a podcast that you don't
even really know who is reading it or who's hosting it. Like,
it's not really a personality led show. It's a premise
(07:54):
driven show. So you've got media brands that are driven
by a really strong, compelling premise. I think about business Wars,
where they take two iconic companies and McDonald's versus Burger King,
and they tell the story of that content.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Great storytelling, great rarely.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Telling, and it's a great premise. It's a great angle
to explore stories. There are endless numbers of iconic companies
that have competed with one another over the years, and
that's fascinating. I don't necessarily care who's delivering the information.
I want the story to be good. But then you've
got branded podcasts, and branded podcasts are more explicitly designed
(08:34):
to bolster awareness for the company producing the show. We
didn't see a lot of branded podcasts in the top
one fifty, but there's one called The Moth. It's a
storytelling podcast, and the Moth is a essentially like a
storytelling facility. I think it's in Saint Louis, I forget
where it is, but it is a brand. It is
(08:54):
a company. They charge people to come in and hear
different people tell stories and.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Events actually all over the place.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, so that's one example of a really great branded podcast.
So that's how we bucketed it. We've got branded podcasts,
you've got media brands, and then you've got personal brand.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And branded like maybe not in the top one fifty,
but a good example would also be like Bigger Pockets, Yes,
Bigger Pockets.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Brandon he got his start I'm forgetting his last name
right now.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I follow him on Instagram, But he got his start
on a branded show and then it was like his
personality actually led him to finally leave there because his
personal brand got bigger than the branded show.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And you see that actually a lot like Guy Ross.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You probably didn't care about him when he was narrating
necessarily for NPR.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
He was just a really good storyteller.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Then his next show was very much his personality that
they branded it around him. And so you see those evolutions,
which makes some of the research we were doing harder
because you're going some of these are on.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yeah, it's bleeding the edge, I would even say, And
we went back and forth on this, so I don't
actually know. I can't, off the top of my head
tell you how we classify Bigger Pockets because I would
think of Bigger Pockets as a media brand because now
they have a collection of different shows. Yeah, they've evolved
that are that are that are premise based? Yes, like
this concept. I even noticed with one of their shows
(10:19):
it talks about like it's like rookies in real estate,
and they've had multiple hosts over the years, so they are.
They are a media company, and so so that was
a tell for me. I'm like, Okay, if this is
a media company, it's likely going to be a media brand.
There are some personality driven shows that get gobbled up
(10:39):
by media companies because media companies just want attention and
so but if you those those are risky acquisitions to
make in my opinion, because as soon as the talent leaves,
you know, Vox going and getting prof g if he
decides he wants to go and live on an island
for the next year, you know that that show doesn't
work without him.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I think think could be interesting to just pose a
couple questions here before we move into into the research
and just get your opinion. So one of them was
the rise of video, how do you feel like it
has changed? Without going straight to data, but just like
you're seeing it, we're seeing it. You're thinking on video
changing the podcast landscape and the advantage there any thoughts
(11:23):
before then we go like, Okay, here's just from the report,
straight up data, because we're watching it before our eyes.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Yeah, So, I think the biggest thing for me is
the thoughtfulness that you have to put into pre production
now that video is the primary distribution mechanism for your show.
So we've always said there's a discoverability problem in podcasting.
We've always known that the only people who are consuming
(11:53):
your show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts are the folks
that have already found your show somewhere else and follow
it on those platforms, So you are only distributing that
content to the existing set of followers that follow that
RSS feed. What video unlocks is the ability to now
(12:14):
tap into social algorithms and YouTube algorithm to get exposure
to audiences that would have never otherwise known that you
exist because the algorithm wants to feed their users new
content that will keep those users on the platform longer.
And so the way you think about packaging video content
(12:34):
on those platforms, it matters a lot, right, Like the
first three tenths of a second on an Instagram reel
can literally change the trajectory of whether a video gets
thirty views or three hundred thousand views, which is just
mind boggling. And so the scrutiny that you have to
put each episode through in pre production from an idea standpoint,
(12:58):
is this a strong enough idea? What is the hook
that we need to be able to bring somebody in?
Because the idea could be great, but if we don't,
if we don't have a compelling hook, nobody's going to
watch it. Thumbnails titles, I feel like we talk about
that stuff at nauseum and the circles that you and
I are running in calling it samir folks that study YouTube,
(13:18):
I feel like a broken record talking about title thumbnail
hook Like it's like, God, how many more times do
we need to say that? But it is obvious to
me that B to b Land is not paying attention
to that because you look at the content that they're
putting out and it is not reflective of what actually
needs to be paid attention to. And I think we'll
get there, and we're going to talk about that later.
(13:40):
How AI is impacting this and what AI is doing
to search and what where where marketers attention is going
to go when they're no longer focused on optimizing for
a keyword in search because people aren't searching in Google anymore.
They're finding their answers on chat, GPT. Well, now, what
do we need to do with our effort? We have
to start optimizing for video. So eventually they're going to
(14:02):
get there. It's going to get more competitive, but I
think we're in this sweet moment right now where if
you're an early adopter in B to B for video,
you've got a real opportunity to separate yourself from your competitors. There.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, first data point I want to talk about from
the State of Video Podcasting report is seventy percent of
people now say that they prefer watching podcasts not listening.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
That number is very high. And if you listened to
podcasts for the last decade plus, you are probably shocked
by that number because you gained your habits, your listening
habits in a time where video was not an option.
And so I've seen this even in the circles that
I run in where I just will ask a friend
(14:51):
how do you consume content? And I think people don't
even realize sometimes they got sucked into a content like
black hole of someone where they're watching a podcast, not
thinking about it as a podcast, They're just watching a
show on YouTube. And that kind of rise of those
types of audiences where it's like people are talking it
to them into a mic in a room about something
I'm interested in. I might not necessarily immediately go to
(15:13):
this as a podcast, it's a video show, or they
don't even care to define it, but their habits were
formed in a YouTube age where they watch and consume
their content that way. And I'll say, as someone who
has loved podcasts for a long time, I now fall
into this category where if you pulled me, I would
say I prefer having the option to watch.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I don't have pulled up in front of me exactly
how they pulled this group of people, but I will
say having the option to see it but then click.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Your phone off.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So like on a Spotify where the video is an
option or on YouTube, I have it on in the background,
or I'm cooking but it's on my TV. Like that
type of optionality is only gaining in popularity. And people
having the ability to like rewind thirty seconds because they
were doing something else but they want to see that
moment in a show is more and more common because
streaming is easier than ever, so you could have high
(16:07):
quality video content. The functionality on your phone's getting better,
watching it on a TV is getting better because more
people are recording at a higher quality. Like this stat
rings so true. Now there's a second part to this.
Less than twenty percent of podcasters are actually using video,
So seventy percent want video podcasts, twenty percent are using it.
(16:28):
Think about the advantage there to let's say a personality
led brand to say, yes, you're spending a bunch of
time with me, listening in your headphones, and now for
the most important moments of our show, you're actually watching
this thing happen in real time. Like this makes video
a non negotiable going into twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
That we have to.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Be thinking more about is, yes, the content will always
be king. Do you have a good premise, a good idea,
but once you're actually making that content. It being recorded
in video is not like a nice to have, it's
a need to have because that's how people want to
consume content.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
That's an interesting point that you make that I don't
want to gloss over doing video on a bad idea,
a bad premise, a bad angle is not going to
magically make it a better idea. And I think that's
a common misconception in B to B land just add
video to it.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Well, not even just add video to it. Let's go
pay someone. This is specifically true for businesses. Let's go
pay someone to make a really glossy looking I would say,
spectacular produced video that says practically nothing. That is for
people who will only consume it if they're solution aware.
(17:44):
They're not even you haven't even thought about is this
problem aware content?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Where does it fall in the funnel?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Like we're guilty of we need a video for X
part of our product, we go make a glossy video,
and B to B can make some glossy looking videos. Again,
value low substance and thinking about that in podcasting matters
a lot, because I don't want to see more shows
pivot to video and think that that's going to solve
their content problem.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yep, yeah, yep, I completely agree. Even the shift we've
made with our clients of going stop doing interviews, start
having conversations, meaning stop interviewing a new guest on every
single episode it's an industry expert in your space, and
start doing co hosted commentary with you and a regular
co host, probably from the same company, where you can
actually articulate your point of view over and over and
(18:33):
over again in different ways through different trending things that
are happening in the minds and lives of your buyers.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So one thing that this stat got me thinking is
what are the situations if any where audio only shows
will still thrive or still work. And Tim Ferris so
far as one of the only people I've heard like
(19:01):
and he's still doing more video on YouTube now, so
maybe his strategy has changed even since I heard him
talk about this. But he talked about how he cares
less about how his video podcasts look, and he has
the advantage and the leverage of ten plus years of
doing great stuff, but he just talks about, if I'm
going to be great, I can choose any lane to
be great in which I do think is still true
(19:22):
in the future. There will be people that thrive in
an audio only format. It's just way, way harder and
there's so few amount of people like interview shows. You're
not advocating that no interview shows will thrive in the future.
You're just saying what makes the most sense for people
in B to B to be doing, And it's very
clear co host a commentary is the way. So to me,
(19:44):
I think there's a small contingent of people who are
so good at like a storytelling or a narrative style
show that would be really hard to produce in video
that will still work in audio. But that number continues
to shrink. And so if you think that that's going
to work for you, you better really have some advantage
that you're taking, like you know you're going to be
(20:05):
great at this, because it's getting harder and harder to think.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I could see to push back on that a little bit.
I could see a world because of how good AI
is getting, where there is this influx in really creative
ideas that can be fully executed with AI. In Google's
notebook LM, yeah, if you've played with that at all.
Our friend Dan Sanchez, former host of the show went
(20:27):
through and took three hours and did an eight episode
podcast series on iconic marketing legends. So Ogilvy seth Godin
and did these like eight to twelve minute episodes, dropped
it on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and it was that.
It was the co hosted commentary style from the Google
Notebook LM. But it was good content. He did his
(20:49):
research on chat GBT. He obviously knows these marketers, he
studied them, so he's like, there are some factual inaccuracies
that he had to clear up in the episode description,
but for the most part, it was pretty good. And
that's today. Who knows what's going to happen a year
from now. So I could see there being because the
barrier to entry on audio shows like that is lower,
it increases the volume of them. And then in the
(21:12):
increased volume, obviously a lot of them are going to suck,
they're not going to have interesting premises, but there's that
it's also going to increase the number of good ones.
So I could see a future where audio continues to
be relevant because of the wide swath of different angles
and ideas created from a lower barrier to entry of
everybody being able to do this just with AI.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
The other solution here which audio first, Like speaking specifically
to Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Here, what y'all should have
figured out forever ago was discoverability.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, because the push to YouTube didn't wasn't inevitable.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
It could have been that Spotify and Apple podcast solve
the video problem. But even with Spotify adding video, they
still have a discoverability problem that YouTube is helping solve,
which is why people are moving there. It's not just
everybody now wants video shows. It's that plus the discoverability issue.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And I don't know why that is. I don't know.
Like when I am scrolling through Spotify, I want it
to surface other shows that I might be interested in.
It's Buried man, and It's Buried They've dabbled in it.
There are parts of the UI where I go, oh,
that that could be an interesting show, and it's typically
(22:29):
from a big media company. There's probably some sort of
paid thing going on in the back end to get
that show exposure on that particular screen or whatever. But
I've oftentimes like, oh, that is an interesting show. So
I've said before Spotify I think has the best chance
at it because they're so focused. The fact that they've
(22:50):
put such a huge pots focus on incorporating video into
the podcast platform is very interesting to me. They just
seem to be more funocused on solving the problems of
this medium, more so than Apple podcasts. But I so
I'm excited for them to figure it out. But there's
(23:12):
I would there's got to be a reason why they haven't,
because you're exactly right. YouTube has solved for something that
these two platforms obviously have not even attempted to solve for.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yep, Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
So this next thing we're going to talk about, it
turns out, Benji, YouTube isn't just a podcast platform, it
is the podcast platform. So in twenty twenty four, YouTube
actually overtook Spotify as the number one place that people
discover new podcasts, which is wild.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
If they weren't valuable enough already.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Right, So, and here's the kicker. Most shows on YouTube
on YouTube are still audio only shows, and that is
partially because Google podcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Okay, now Google podcast goes away, but they like made
this whole push of like, oh, we're going away from
what we were doing with there, and we're pushing everybody
to YouTube. But that number is staggering, like, yeah, you're
on YouTube, you're expecting video and then you click and
it's audio.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
We did it. Okay, We've got hundreds of episodes of
this show. I think we've scraped them now that were
just the B to B growth logo with audio playing
over it.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Uh and obviously that you know that was that was
years ago. People used YouTube differently. It wasn't the same
platform it is today. The algorithm has transformed in ways
that you know, nobody would have thought. But yeah, I
just I just think this is crazy. So my question
for you around this, Benji. Should creators be building for
YouTube first and then optimizing for other platforms?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Okay, this is one of the hardest things to make
the pivot on. So if you are just starting as
a creator, I think you should optimize for YouTube and
then let that be transferable to Apple podcasts or Spotify or.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
These other platforms.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
When you think in a YouTube first or a video
first strategy, it can have this like upstream effect that
the other content coming off of it actually makes sense
if you do it the other way, where it's like, Okay,
we're a podcast and I'm thinking about this as like
an audio show, but we'll add video or oh, well,
I guess we'll try to pull some clips from this.
(25:30):
It's way harder to use that content and get effective distribution.
So if I'm really prioritizing like strong hooks, if I'm
prizing storytelling in my episodes, or personality led content, or
better motion graphics or whatever, all the things that we
talk about when you're trying to execute a video strategy
(25:52):
for a podcast, if I do all of that, well,
you know how easy it is to export that file
as an audio only thing that sends to other platforms.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Your storytelling is still great.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
All the content that, all the work you put into
pre production, all of that still stands true. If you
go we're going to do an audio first approach, or
we're going to think in old school podcasting terms, where
the first five minutes it's just kind of random banter,
or it's pretty discombobulated and like we have this long
ranging conversation, it's way harder for, especially in business. Hear
(26:26):
me say that, especially in business, to see success with
that kind of show on YouTube or on these other
platforms where people are searching you out for video. So
to me, if you're a creator, right, now you build
for YouTube first knowing that you can distribute that content
on other platforms, and it makes micro videos easier, it
makes repurposing that on platforms like LinkedIn and all these
(26:48):
other social platforms easier.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
So I would be optimizing there.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And I'll say this for the content marketers that have
grown up in this industry being focused on written that
ranks in Google, I would not let this be scary
to you because I think the root of really great
video content actually requires great writing. So when you think
(27:16):
about great like we are doing this episode right now
because of a really well written outline that has hooks
baked in for every single segment of this episode. And
I think good writing is good thinking translated onto digital paper.
(27:37):
So being a great writer is I think a massive
advantage for being able to produce good video content.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
It's also never been harder to be a great writer.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yes, because you are now competing against AI, so you
don't have to compete against it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You can use it to your advantage. But what we're
seeing is just because you are a.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Great writer two years ago, if you weren't an early
adopter in how you think about and use AI, very easy.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
To be left behind that usage of essentially critical thinking.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
With AI with someone who is a great writer facilitator
of that content. I don't know that there's ever been
a better time for that skill set. It will help
you with video. The other thing is if you already
have been doing these blogs for I mean, SEO is lit.
I mean my friend who started his SEO agency, I
(28:33):
think he started at twenty ten. I mean it's been
a long time that people have doing this. You have
this bank of content that you can go back through,
pull out interesting points, dissect what would actually make sense
for video content, and you already have the beginnings of
something that can be modified and edited into video first.
A video first strategy that should be your thinking is
(28:55):
how does this give me an unfair advantage? Because I
have this whole bank sitting here that can now be
translated into this new thing that's going to also grow
the personality of our brand and.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Put a face to it, which is so exciting.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
And it's really easy to get to think that, oh,
video that means I've got to be great on camera.
But that's the advantage of being in B to B
is in B to B it's much more about the
substance of what you were actually saying, and the expertise
in the space and the credibility you have in the space.
This is not an entertainment channel. You don't have to
(29:29):
be this bambastic figure on camera. You have to actually
know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Okay, So I think someone's going to listen to this show.
Here what you just said, compare it to what you
said ten minutes ago, and go explain how these things
are do line up? Because I'm jumping through the hoops
with you and I see how they line up. But
some people are going to watch this and they're going
to go, Okay, James said, I'm competing against the Andrew
Chuberman's of the world, the Calling and some mirs of
the world. And now he's saying, but in B to B,
(29:57):
I don't have to be focused on being, you know,
mister b. But people might scroll past my video to
go back to mister beasts. So how the heck do
you balance both of those? I think it's super important
to realize if you're truly niched down and you know
your content well, people are seeking out the solution that
you have. So if you prioritize problem aware, people are
(30:18):
aware that they need to solve a specific thing and
you have actual deep level expertise and knowledge on that topic.
There is a group of people out there searching for that, wanting,
that desiring, that would rather watch your video than mister
Beast's video. If you can do it in a compelling way,
that's the synct There is a way to compete just
(30:38):
based on the knowledge that you actually have and getting
good at storytelling. It's really basic stuff. So yes, you
are in a way competing against the best of the best.
But the more you niche down, the more likelihood you
are the leader in that small circle and people will
come back to you. You will get repeat viewers because
you know what you can do talk about and it's educational.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
And the best of the best are.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Deep experts exactly. Andrew Huckerman is a deep expert.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Scott Galloway is a deep expert. Sean and Sean and
Sam from My First Million are deep experts. These they've
sold companies for tens of millions of dollars, so that
that deep subject matter expertise matters a lot now. And
those guys are good storytellers. Cal Newport like these. There's it. Yeah,
(31:29):
there's uh there's a lot to be said here, but
I don't want it to be discouraging. At the at
the end of the day, you're gonna suck the first
time you do this. It's about getting reps and sets
in and getting better and better at the on camera stuff.
But if you've got deep subject matter expertise, you are
starting from a really, really good position.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
All right, everybody is still doing interview shows, and I
think it's crippling video podcast growth. And so I want
to give you three important data points around this. Number one,
sixty five percent of business podcasts are interview based. But
(32:10):
listen to this, storytelling and solo formats are actually driving
the most engagement, which leads to the second part that
I wanted to surface here. Shows that focus on personality, Right,
personality driven formats are growing at a thirty percent higher rate.
So put those two together and you get this third part.
(32:32):
Seventy six percent of branded podcasts use interviews as a
way or they're thinking, is this is going to help
me with thought leadership? Again, you have sixty five percent
of video podcasts doing the interview show thing. They're just
all right, we're doing another interview, bringing another person. Shows
that focus on personality like content growing at a way
(32:54):
higher rate thirty percent higher. Seventy six percent of branded
podcasts using a show that does interviews, hoping fingers crossed.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
That it's going to work for thought leadership.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
What's the problem with this with this data set, If
seventy six percent of branded podcasts think that they are
growing their thought leadership by bringing someone on in spotlighting
that person in an interview style show, the breakdown is
you can't really be a thought leader if you just
do interviews. The best people are at least at minimum
(33:27):
they are doing conversation style shows if they are bringing
on guests, and I'll shout out Jay Klaus here when
he does a show, even though he brings on people
that are experts in their field, it is always a
conversation and that's why people stay for Jay. So if
you're one of the sixty five percent that are doing
(33:50):
interview based shows, your first move may not be we're
just going to completely kill this and go immediately to
co hosted commentary, though there might be room for us
to discuss how someone would do that. Your first move
would at least move to a style And I've done
this with multiple hosts. We're going to just make this
a conversation. This is your show, tell me a story.
(34:12):
Take two minutes if you're interviewing someone and just actually
have a thought, and if you can start there, you'll
start to see the power which as you.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Do this more often, you're going to see.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Okay, actually co hosted commentary or these styles that James
and Benjerier are so often talking about, they do make sense.
They do need to be part of our strategy. So
I gave you all three data points. Talk to me
a little bit about how you're thinking about this. You've
already mentioned co hosted commentary here, but I think this
presents a pretty clear picture.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
This is where we're at. So this data comes from
a study that data Box did a few weeks ago,
and I got to be a part of this live
call that they did breaking this down. And this was
the when I saw this data pop up on the screen,
jumped out at me crazy, Like seventy six percent of
the folks that they surveyed, I think it was one
(35:05):
hundred and forty shows said that brand awareness or thought
leadership was the goal. Yet sixty five percent of their
formats were interview based and We've been preaching this for
so long that it just it became glaringly obvious to me.
(35:27):
And when I mentioned this, there was a guy that
pushed back and he was like, oh, no, like James,
you know, he was very flattering. He was like, oh,
you know you're the og in this.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Type of pushback.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah. Yeah, he was very flattering. But he was like,
but I have to disagree, you know, because I've done
over two hundred interviews and it has been really effective
for my business, and it's and it's and it's grown
my business. And I totally understand that. I wrote a
book called content based Networking.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I think it's somewhere I was gonna grab it somewhere back.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yeah, this book literally talked about using interview base shows
to build relationships.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
That's why I was hired was just to do that
three years ago, so that.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I completely get that in B to B Land that
strategy does make a lot of sense. But I had
somebody reach out to me afterwards. I had a lot
of people actually reach out after that live call and
they're like, thank you so much for saying that, because
so many people on that call were small business owners, consultants, solopreneurs.
(36:29):
That type of person does benefit greatly from doing an interview,
base show and interviewing their prospects, because one or two
deals a month for a business like that has a
huge outsized impact. One or two deals for a one
hundred million dollar software company does not move the needle
(36:51):
for that business. A larger mid market, enterprise sized company.
They want to shape the market. They want to transform
how their market is thinking about the problem that they
can solve. You don't do that by doing onesie two, Z,
three Z interviews with people that could sign, you know,
(37:12):
even one hundred thousand dollars a year contract with you. You
need a bigger You need to influence at a wider scale.
You need to build brand. And when she said that
we were just going back and forth via LinkedIn DMS,
I was like she articulated something that I hadn't quite
got to like. I was like, there's something off here,
(37:32):
because yes, content based networking still makes a whole lot
of sense. I built Sweetfish on the back of content
based networking. If you are listening to this and you're
a solopreneur and you're trying to get consulting gigs and
one or two deals a month could change the trajectory
of your livelihood by all means, go and interview prospects.
(37:53):
And you know, you don't need the content to shape
in entire industry. But for the folks who're trying to
work with, they are trying to shape markets, and to
shape a market, you have to do the stuff that
you and I are talking about a lot. Now.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
I want to talk about implementation for this real quick
before we go to the next data point. And I
also want to say, if you are a consultant or
a small business owner, the advantage of mixing in some content, right,
so maybe in your case it does make sense to
go talk to prospects. I would still push back that
you need to put in some monologue style shows or
some co hosted stuff, because that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Becomes sales enablement.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
That becomes I like the way James thinks so much
that I want to do business with them. If you
had mixed in some of those while you were busy
running around chasing all those vps of marketing, but you
were like, this is my thoughts on my big bets
on media.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Funny story there, dude, we were in the throes of
doing interview based shows and I started a series called
Behind the Curtain, opened the episodes with like BTC or
something like that, and I was just talking about the
behind the curtain of Sweetfish, and we were learning as
we were going the business. I kid you not. That
was a season in the business where I was interviewing
Gary Vee, I was interviewing Noah k All, the big
(39:04):
interviewing Simon Sinek. I mean the show. The show at
that point was getting ranked by Apple Podcasts and like
it was, it was a top one hundred marketing podcast,
and there was a lot of notoriety publishers reaching out
to me wanting to feature there people on our show
because of the influence of the show, and those interviews
with those massive names were getting like our little solo
(39:27):
episodes of the Behind the Curtain series was getting three
x the downloads, three x the downloads of people wanting
to hear me talk about my little baby business that's
building in a garage apartment. And that I think is
the essence of why you have to take seriously this
other style.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Of cons So that is perfect that I'm so glad
you gave that example so that I would just mix
in those episodes you don't have.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
To get rid of what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
If you're a consultant, small business in the content based networking,
play still works. If you're a big business and you're going,
how do I pivot? I'm part of the sixty five percent.
I'm still doing interview style shows. I can lay out
that roadmap for you. I would pick two three topics
that you can batch record with the current host and
an smme and your business, get a two hours on
(40:10):
the calendar and record those three episodes in one batch recording.
Talk about after you do that, how did it go?
And watch how those episodes both perform, but also how
comfortable those two people are if they already know each other.
I guarantee you it's going to go better than it
usually does. How that can give you just like a
head start. Some people think they have to go all
(40:31):
in right away. I've found helping companies just test this,
they see it naturally progress. So we're not telling you
just have to pivot your strategy overnight, though we wish
you would. But you can easily test this with like
two hours and recording a few episodes in this style
and just watching what happens.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
I'll mention something Benji. I was just talking to Ben
from our team about this. Last night. I was listening
to a client of our shows, coming back from picking
up babys at daycare yesterday, and I'm listening to this show.
This is second episode that I was of listen to.
They recorded their first season in this room that we're
in right now a few weeks ago, so the episodes
are starting to come out, and I'm listening to the
(41:09):
show and it's co hosted commentary, and I was so
overwhelmed at how different the quality of this show was
compared to when I used to listen to client shows
even six months ago, doing interviews. And it just dawned
on me that the stark difference in listening to a
(41:35):
B to B company do a co hosted commentary show
versus listening to a B to B company do an
interview based show. I hate throwing out the word authenticity
because everybody throws that word out and it's eye rolling.
But there was a sense of these hosts on this
co hosted commentary show was listening to yesterday when you
(41:57):
were talking to a friend or a coworker or a
colleague that you have history with. It felt as soon
as I heard the first line of the show, there
wasn't this.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Fake.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
I'm trying to impress you. I'm trying to put on
my best look so that you think I'm awesome, glossy persona.
I could just tell I was listening to two women
who knew each other, who knew their craft, jamming on
the future of their industry or what's inspiring them creatively,
(42:33):
and it just felt real, and it made me want
to keep listening to the show. And I know that
that small change that I think when they came inbound
in our sales process, they wanted to do an interview
based show like everybody else, so we want to interview
industry experts. I know that that one small difference changed
(42:54):
the tone and trajectory of that entire show. So when
we talk, when you hear us talk about co host
and commentary all the time, it is not like it
was very disruptive to our business to shift to this.
This is not like, oh, they've got this agenda because
of what they sell. No, we changed what we sell
(43:14):
because we observed this happening the best shows on the Internet,
and when something is different here, what we are doing
is not building the kind of affinity that we know
these companies want to build and are seeking to build
by saying that we want brand awareness and thought leadership
in our in our to be a result. And so
I want to call that out because that these these
(43:36):
small shifts in format can have massive impacts on how
people perceive your content, your brand, the affinity that they
developed towards personalities inside of your company, and ultimately associate
that affinity with your company. So I'll leave that there,
(43:57):
But Benji w one question I wanted to ask you, like,
what what is something I guess you know. Are there
reasons that some companies could not pull off co hosted commentary?
Speaker 1 (44:12):
My short answer is no, I think that almost any
like pretty much every company can unless you're literally solopreneur.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
So but the longer.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Version of that, why some people would struggle at first
is because a lot of subject matter experts have been
trained to be so inward like product focused that the
content could suffer in the short term because you don't
know how to get out of your bubble and talk
about content in a way that's interesting to your audience.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
You're talking about it for the benefit of the company.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
So some people get into co hosted commentary, and the
coaching is you're talking about your product too much. You're
talking about again goes back to problem a where solution
to where people are thinking I'm almost presenting on a webinar,
we have to coach them out of that. So in
that case, can they solve it long term? Yeah, like
it still would work. The other thing is for co
host commentary, we're not saying you can't ever bring in
(45:02):
an outside expert. So in that case, yeah, if you
have two people that really know each other, you bring
in a third party for a couple episodes like that
still co.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Hosts commentarversation, conversation.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
So I actually would just push back and say, if
you think you can't do it, give me another reason
why you can't do it other than the one I
just listed, which just takes coaching to get out of.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
All right, this report made it glaringly obvious. This research
showed that consistency consistent posting is a critical success factor
when it comes to growing a show. Video podcasts that
(45:45):
prioritize quality and regularity are outperforming those that just rely
on volume. Yep, and the data is pretty overwhelming. So
eighty five point four percent of the time one hundred
and fifty podcasts posted video content regularly, and shows with
(46:06):
higher average viewer retention rates fifty percent or more, which
is really high. YEP grew thirty percent faster than those
focusing on posting frequency, So the folks trying to just
push out a lot of content not growing nearly as
fast as ones that are focused on keeping a viewer
on a video for a longer amount of time. No
(46:27):
podcast in the top one hundred and fifty group past
a million subscribers without a regular posting schedule, So consistency
is a minimum requirement. High engagement and high in quality
production are obviously the differentiating characters here. Seventy percent of
all ad revenue for video podcasts comes from shows that
post weekly or bi weekly, so consistency also impacts monetization.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Which I'm going to talk about it for that's huge.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
Yeah, So I mean this makes it yeah, this makes
it pretty clear. Should but should podcasters focus on scaling
up their production first because that's a differentiator, or should
they lock down a regular schedule before doing anything else.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Instead of being prescriptive here, I would just say I
think people fall into a few different traps. They go,
I'm going to post a ton of content, but then
they don't have a way of deciding after they've posted
a lot of content, how do I go back and
analyze what worked or didn't work and actually get better
from that? And then you get on a hamster wheel
of I just create a lot of content. None of
(47:36):
it's really working, but I can say I made a
lot of it, and like that is a very real
place to be.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
I've been there. It's a struggle.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
The other thing is you can double down on quality
so early and get worried about it not being excellent
that you never push publish. So you're really focused on
how excellent this thing is, but you never get to
a place of posting consistently.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
So what most people are going to tell you the
advice is just start publishing.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
My caveat to that would be just start publishing with
a way of reviewing frequently. If that is part of it.
Where to use atomic habits. You're posting regularly and you're
trying to get one percent better with each video, you're
gonna have a much different trajectory than doubling down on
quality too early and being afraid that your first video
(48:25):
isn't going to be absolutely spectacular. Last thing I'll say
on this quality over time should be something that you
have fun geeking out about.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Go deep on quality.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
And if there is an episode that you don't feel
like is up to.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Standard, I would This is my personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Now, I actually think on YouTube you could wait a
day and not push publish on the day that you
said you were going to podcasting in the audio format.
I think this is just user behavior, This is not
in the data. But I would say, and I would
ask if you resonate with this reach out. Well, I
think when it comes to audio, I look for specific
shows on specific days because I know when they come
(49:05):
out and when they're going to be in my RSS
feed videos. When I care about a creator, I don't
care what day they publish, and I know the algorithm's
going to serve me up videos I like, So I
would focus more on the idea and the quality of
that content.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
When I'm on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
That's just me for right now. Is I am starting
to obsess over the quality?
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Yeah? I mean I walked in to film this and
you guys were nerding out on the placement of that
pack man.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, we could have moved this Pacman machine like forty
more times if it was just me. So I need
James to be like, we need to hit record and
go tell you.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
But I love it. The evolution of where we are
today versus where we were even a year ago is
incredible to me. And we're starting to see the traction
that comes from that focus. We've had shorts that have
popped off. We're consistently getting new subscribers on YouTube and
it's having a big impact. But I still struggle. I mean,
(49:59):
even with my LinkedIn content, I'm cranking out a lot
of you know, daily posts on LinkedIn, and Anaka and
I still have not gotten into a rhythm where we
are regularly reviewing. It's so hard to do. Let's split
see them. Yeah, So in that skip step, can, I
mean can can cripple your growth for a really long
time unless you assess, like, okay, like anytime Annaka and
(50:22):
I meet, the first thing we need to talk about
what worked last week, what day?
Speaker 1 (50:24):
It's like the finish line is not publishing, the finish
line is reviewing.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yes, that should be like the standard.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
So yeah, okay, I'm going to hit this last one
quick because we need to go. We need to fly
and wrap this up in the last in the next
nine minutes. So my last point here, video podcasts are
making way more money than audio only shows. Video podcasts
drive fifty five percent higher revenue through sponsorships and visual
(50:52):
product placement. So this means that if you add video,
it's great for views, but it's also a revenue drive
as well.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
It could double your ad income.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
So if you're a creator who's really thinking about monetization,
this is video is the way to go because one
YouTube has a much more robust way of doing this,
but to product placement opens up a completely different door
for you. So I don't think we need to go
super deep on this one, but I do think it's
interesting if monetization matters to you, that the real money
(51:26):
is made in video shows.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
When it comes to video podcasting.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Where's video podcasting headed. We're predicting four massive shifts. The
first one. Co hosted commentary is going to take over
shows like Impulse Creator Support My first Million. They're proving it.
Audiences want dialogue, they want banter, they want conversation, not
(51:53):
just a one way interview.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
What about you, my prediction or what we're seeing. That
is going to lead to a lot of change. In
twenty twenty five. In person interviews are going to surge
over the next twelve months. So if you can capture
high quality content in person, that is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
We literally fly you in from Pittsburgh just to record
these just to record these episodes. That's how much we
believe in.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
That, and we're going to just see that continue to
skyrocket over the next felve months.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Care about your content and the depth of it, but
also video quality is going to keep getting better in
the first it is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Niche shows will have more and more value. It's not
about broad appeal. Top video podcasts are winning in niche markets. Association.
We associate Andrew Huberman with health science YEP, we associate
Peter Attiya with longevity like figuring out those brand associations.
(52:53):
HR shows, design shows, fintech riches are in.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
The last prediction here is that businesses are going to
go all in on a video first approach, especially with
the rise of AI. Video is a way to stand out.
It gives personality.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
To your brand and I think we're going to.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
See people spend a lot more money on this. And
also that personality led to shows that blend education and
entertainment are going to start to gain notoriety. We're going
to see it start popping off way more on LinkedIn
as they're adding video features. But businesses are going to say, yeah,
we're all in video first is our content strategy.
Speaker 3 (53:35):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
All right, let's wrap this thing up.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
Video isn't a nice to have, it's a need now
and hopefully this gave you a lot of data to
back that up. If you want the full report, go
to Sweetfishmedia dot com. What did we say the specific
r it's tweet.
Speaker 4 (53:51):
Fishers Media dot com slash State of Video Podcasts, State
of Video podcast We would love for you to get
the whole report, dive into all the data lots there
for you to digest.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Thank you, Paige for all your hard work on that.
We usually do a research roundup. You're not gonna hear
that today because this whole episode rear go get the report,
James take us out there.
Speaker 3 (54:13):
All right. So remember, whoever has the audience has all
the leverage. Commodity content is the enemy, and personality led
media is the way we're out
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