May 14, 2025 • 51 mins
BA Fam, we’ve got a good one for you today! Mandi is joined by licensed financial therapist Aja Evans for an eye opening convo about something we all deal with but rarely talk about money feelings.
From stress-spending and avoiding your inbox to doom-scrolling at 6 a.m., Aja breaks down how our emotions drive financial behavior and why learning to sit with discomfort might just be your most powerful money move yet. We also talk about getting dressed just to open your laptop, journaling out your rage , and why the stretch that makes you cry might be exactly what you need.
In this episode, we get into:
-What it really means to self-soothe with spending and what to do instead
-Why romanticizing boring tasks (like budgeting) actually works
- How financial avoidance shows up and what it’s costing you
-The deep-rooted shame so many of us carry, no matter how much is in your bank account
-How Aja helps clients rewrite their money stories
About Aja:
Aja Evans is a licensed financial therapist, President of the Financial Therapy Association, and author of Feel Good Finance. She helps people explore the emotional side of money so they can spend, save, and live from a place of clarity instead of chaos.
Resources + Links:
-Follow Aja on IG: https://www.instagram.com/ajaetherapy
-Her website: https://www.ajaevanscounseling.com
-Grab her new book Feel Good Finance - Feel-Good Finance Untangle Your Relationship with Money for Better Mental, Emotional, and Financial Well-Being
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Shame comes up so frequently with my clients and with
money in general. Right, it's not just like my clients
who are coming to me to have these types of conversations.
It's also, as I know you know and can see
and can hear from other people, people are just dealing
with it silently. And I love what you said about
talking about it and bringing it up is the antidote
(00:22):
to shame, because I completely agree. I think it brings
us out of this isolation and sadness and gloom that
we can create ourselves when we start to spiral in
our shame to think I'm the only one who's going
through this, nobody else is going through this. I you know,
then the terrible things that you say to yourself right
(00:44):
start showing up to all of that negativity, and it
forces you inward versus forcing you outward where you can
feel loved and appreciated even though you were going through
a hard time.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey, ba fam, it's your host, Mandy Money. I sat
down with Asia Evans this week. Asia is a financial therapist.
She's the author of a book called Feel Good Finance.
And yes she is taking new clients, but only a few,
So maybe if you like what you hear on today's episode,
you can go check out her website. I'll put it
in the show notes. But Asia and I sat down
(01:24):
to talk about debt, and even just saying that word
makes me want to throw open my mouth a little bit.
My relationship to debt is probably as dysfunctional as anyone else's,
and at this time in our economy, it's very common
to hear pieces of personal finance advice about paying down
your debt, consolidating your debt, getting your debt under control,
(01:45):
and saving. But if we can't get through the shame
of even having debt in the first place, then ba fam,
how do we even start getting ourselves out of it?
On today's show, Asia and I are going to talk
about how we actually get more comfortable being uncomfortable, and
how that can lead us on a path toward finally
paying down debt and releasing ourselves from the shame of it.
(02:08):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back jump in. Asia, I
want you to ask me what you just asked.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So I think, looking at why we have such a
hard time feeling uncomfortable, and I don't say just we
as in me and you, I mean we as a
human collective, Why are humans so afraid to be uncomfortable?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I love that question so much. It's funny because it's like, well, duh,
you're a therapist, so of course you know that that's
a crucial question to ask. But it is one of
the key questions I have been working on to answer
this past year of my life. I've been on this
big mental health journey where I was just like, so overwhelmed.
I'm sure that with ba fam, with all the things.
(02:56):
I mean, I think I'm just like, if you look
at my situation, like what's wrong with her, it's like, oh,
she's just a modern woman in her late thirties with kids,
a mortgage, a business, a husband, and family and friends,
and she's this is what happens when you try to
do all the things, and this day and age is like,
of course you're struggling. And for me, the big journey
(03:20):
has been how to sit in that discomfort and how
to not obsessively or not obsessively, but how not to
be afraid of it so that you're constantly trying to
fix it. And I want to talk about the ways,
like when we're not able to cope with just being uncomfortable,
being anxious, not being financially secure, not having whatever it
(03:44):
is that you want going on in your life. Like,
in what ways are we hurting ourselves by constantly trying
to fix that discomfort?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
That's a beautiful question, And I don't think that we
think enough about how we're hurting ourselves trying to just
get out of that uncomfortable feeling. So a lot of
times when you are, you know, there are the classics.
You overspend, you go shopping, you order take out, you
book a last minute trip where you know it's going
(04:13):
to be far more expensive than it would have booked
if you you know, planned it out a little bit
more or gave it.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Some times you had a.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Really terrible day and you're like, whatever, just do it.
Throw caution to the wind.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, correct, Like you know, I only live once. This
is ridiculous, Nothing matters. Everything is crashing out all over
the world. It feels so hopeless. But what I want
people to understand is that when you are in that moment,
when you're in fight or flight, when you're in that crisis,
your body is screaming at you to do something to
(04:45):
make you feel more comfortable. That's just instinctually, that's what
humans go through, and I want that thing that you're
going to do, whatever that coping strategy is, to be
something that you are going it's going to put you
in a better situation longer term. So when we are
in a crisis and we're reaching for our cards, we're
(05:07):
reaching for our phone, we're ready to double tap, we're
ready to just hit purchase hit by. That is a
short term win. It is in the short term, going
to make you feel better, and it does work, to
be clear, Like a lot of those things do work.
You get that quick spike of dopamine and you're like, Okay,
everything's great, I feel good. But the problem with that
(05:28):
is that it doesn't last long and you will go
right back to where you were before if you don't
actually start addressing how you handle stress, how you handle
that level of discomfort in a way that is a
little bit more, a little less short sighted, and aiming
at a long term change and shift in your life. So,
(05:51):
and I'll give an example of something that I did
just recently. I myself was having a hard time just
managing everything that you just said, because that's me too.
A woman in her late thirties, two young kids, six
an under and trying to build a business, trying to
show up for my clients, trying to promote my book,
trying to do all these things at the same time,
(06:12):
while I'm like, oh, I'm ready to get fit again
and I'm ready to spend time with my friends again.
And I honestly was just having a really hard time.
And I was like, Asia, what would you tell one
of your clients. I would tell them to feel the feels.
So I just sat there and I cried and I
was sad, and I'm like, I'm so upset and spiraled.
And then I did a really hard workout. And for me,
(06:35):
when I'm in that kind of space, i don't want
to do the workout. I'm not getting on that peloton
bike like I can't wait to take this class. No,
I'm cursing myself out. I'm upset that.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I'm doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I'm angry, and midway through the workout is when I'm like, Okay,
you were making it through this workout. This is awful.
This feels bad.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Listening to the motivational Tune Day telling me what I
need to do.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Tune Day just too incandescent. She's just too stunning. Study. Yes,
it's just like stunning, the bar is too high.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah. I was like, listen, we're not gonna look like
Tune Day today.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah. Man, I mean, but that's why she got the
job right aspiration.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
She's good at it. She is good at it. So
sometimes I just need somebody to yell at me to
crank the resistance and pedal faster and after that, and
I'll be honest like I tap in and and cry
while I'm on the bike. I cried during my workouts.
I cried during yoga. I'm a pretty emotional person. I'm expressing,
but that's what I needed to then release that.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Oh you're one of those ones who gets a deep
stretch and you like unlock trauma.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, looking for that stretch.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I'm waiting for the stretch that just lets me get
it all out because I watched those TikTok and I'm like, oh,
that looks nice. Let me try that.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
It hasn't happened yet.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
It's mostly for me, honestly, and I think this it
talks about what we're talking about right now. It is
mindset for me because I'm not just saying, oh I
need to get through this workout. I need to get
through this pose or whatnot. It's you are strong. You
can push through this. You have pushed through this before.
You may feel alone, you may feel like you're the
(08:26):
only one going through this, but you will be okay.
And that's when I'm weeping, and it is just a
reminder of what my strengths are and what I'm pushing
for and why I'm doing this. So I'm having a
whole internal therapy session on myself when I'm working out,
because I really do believe it's about mindset and that's
(08:48):
what I want people to work on. When you find
yourself reaching for something that's a little bit more short term,
I want you to start thinking about, hey, what can
I do right now when I'm feeling so bad that
is going to help me feel better even tomorrow, and
that it could be something so small. You could meditate,
you can exercise, you can take a shower, do something
(09:10):
that is not going to be detrimental to yourself or
to your finances. If you are going to feel bad
about that coping strategy that you used in that moment tomorrow,
then we cannot do it. I don't want you to
continue the longevity of feeling bad because you're like, oh,
I'm mad that I did it that way. I'm mad
(09:30):
I got out of that feeling that way because I
don't think that's really what you want. You're trying to
find relief, but not a lot of people understand what
they need and that takes time.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
To Yeah, one of the ways that my anxiety was manifesting,
like in terms of like the way I was coping
with it after I had my two year old couple
years ago. I would drop off my son, my older son,
at school, and then I would like and you know,
drop the baby off a daycare or whatever, and I'd
have a lot of stuff going on to catch up on,
(10:01):
and I would come up with a grocery shopping. I'd like, Oh,
I need to go grocery shopping, and I would like
spend and it doesn't feel like it's bad because it's
grocery shopping, you know, but I would turn it into
like a very long trip and I'd be out there
for like two hours. Maybe I would go to one
store and then I would go to another like Marshals
(10:23):
or home Goods or whatever, and it would all feel
like I'm doing it for the family, but I was
also like avoiding, you know, the overwhelming amount of things
on my plate, and the it's not just like the
overwhelming amount of things, but the overwhelming amount of unfinalized, unanswered,
unfinished things, like the open endedness, you know how those
(10:45):
like it'll be an email thread and you haven't responded
in a day, and then that becomes two days, and
then it becomes three, and each day you're like, why
haven't I responded? This is like so rude, and then
you just that anxiety stops you from doing the thing
and just responding. So that for me is something that
I won't even say was is something that I continue
(11:09):
to try and cope with. But what I've had to
do is like identify what those behaviors are. You see
me shopping at BJS. You're not thinking, oh, wow, she's
really like avoiding some stressful you know, she's a business
owner who's really just like cope, like trying to self soothe,
you know, in the Hamper's aisle at BJ's right now.
(11:30):
But I have to recognize, like it's like naming those
behaviors and recognizing what it actually is. And that requires
a level of like self awareness and self honesty that
I think is really challenging, Like to actually get quiet
with yourself and say this is something that I do
(11:52):
to soothe myself, this is a behavior that I'm doing
and for my own like for my own long term good,
I need to stop this behavior and do something different.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
I so deeply understand that, and I feel like that's
literally what feel good finance is about. Like literally, that's
exactly what I'm trying to help people do, is to
take the time to get honest with themselves, to identify
what the feelings are, what your triggers are, and then
what you do that you don't really like that you're doing.
(12:25):
So it could be yes, you can still go to BJ's,
you can still go grocery shopping, but before you do that,
you're gonna go call a friend and just be like, Hey,
I'm so overwhelmed, this is whild My email box is
looking insane and I don't want to tackle it. So
I'm gonna go to the grocery store, but talk me
through what I'm eating this week, Like let's talk about
like how I'm planning to go to the grocery store
(12:46):
versus like I we really need this eighteen pack of
toothbrushes from BJ's, Like we need that, right, yes, and
we also need you know, all the things that you
end up buying when you're in these stores that you
can just if I for your family, and some of
them I'm sure you do really need. But a lot
of it, to your point, could be coming from your
desire to self soothe and how you are self soothing
(13:11):
through that, not even the stuff that.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Makes me feel better. It's like it's just the time,
Like I will go slow, I'll go up and down
every aisle. It may not be that I spend an
obscene amount of money, it's like the act itself is
like it's it's a distraction. It's a distraction. I love
what you said about like calling the friend in advance.
(13:34):
I also feel like being able to well one thing
is like being an entrepreneur and being at home alone.
Everything does feel like it's so you're the only one.
Like if I'm having a stressful day, I'm looking left
and right. I got my dog who doesn't care, and
the walls. Yeah, and it's don't you feel like sometimes
(14:00):
it is? You can have all the friends and community,
and I know black women one thing we love to
do is build community. But sometimes when you're in that moment,
it can feel like the biggest task ever to reach out, text, call,
go outside, knock on someone's door. You know, which may
sound completely forign to someone listening. You can feel so hard.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, and it is.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
It is hard, And I think you need to know
what you need right. So for somebody like me, I
love to talk it out. I am a verbal processor,
which is very interesting because majority of my life is
built un listening to people. But for me personally, I
do need to talk it out. I do need to
verbally process like my thoughts and my feelings. So I
(14:45):
know that that is going to be something that can
help me when I'm having a hard time. But if
you know that reaching out for help in that moment
is going to be hard, let's find something else that
is a little bit easier, that doesn't feel like it's
going to be a new uphill battle. We want this
to be something very easily accessible that you can just
go to very quickly without having to think about it.
(15:07):
And if that's calling a friend, great, I love that,
But it could be something else before you get to
that point. But the most important part of this whole
cycle is to identify, Oh, I need to do something
before I go to that other coping strategy that you know.
I don't mind that I do, but maybe I want
to do something differently.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Hey, ba fam, we're going to take a quick break
and be right back with more of my conversation with
financial therapist Asia Evans. All right, ba Fam, we're back.
In your book, do you talk about like the impact
that the noise around us can have? Like you may
be fine, but you good on your phone, you read
the news and it's like, wait, the GDP's down this
(15:50):
this month, this quarter, or it was down the first
quarter or twenty twenty five, and it's like, oh, only
one more, only one more down GDP And officially we're
in a recession, but I won't know for another quarter. Right, So,
like all of a sudden, you could feel very anxious
and then you're like what do I do with this feeling?
Do you talk about that? Like what would you say
(16:11):
to people like me who are struggling with that?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, in the book, I don't really talk about that specifically.
I do talk about the noise of social media and
how quickly we can, you know, fall into comparing ourselves
and go that route. But what I will say to
you if this is something that you're struggling with shut
out the noise. And that's the same advice I would get.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Oh yeah, that was me at six am.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Right like, do not and I you know, I am you,
you are me.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
We're all living the same you know, pattern of reality
on the spectrum of the same reality. Do not pick
up your phone at six am and start scrolling or
looking at the news app like now is just not
the time in our lives. You can go do that
at a time in your day, but six am, when
(17:00):
you're opening your eyes and you could potentially feel like, oh,
today is a beautiful day. Going straight into our news
cycle right now is not the time. There's nothing good
there right now, like we're not finding it right now
the headlines.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Start that way.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah good. I don't I don't start.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Looking, you know, like no, no, no, I mean I
don't intentionally go to my phone for the news. I
will go to respond to a text from my mom,
which I was doing, or check I got some blood
work results and I was like scanning through the blood
work and then I start googling what this you know
acronym means when I should just wait for my doctor
to call me. And then next thing, you know, it's like,
oh oops, I'm like reading some news that just popped up,
(17:41):
and then yeah, it's like a it's a slippery slope.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It is.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Also it's like one of my neighbors we had this
like kind of we started this walking ritual that we've
fallen off of, and I woke up at six' ten
AND i, said, Oh i'm up early. ENOUGH i should.
GO i should Textl in and we should go for this.
Walk AND i was in bed on my phone until seven,
Fifteen so over an HOUR i spent in bed on
(18:05):
my phone doom. Scrolling yeah and, noo it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
The, best but, again the dopamine is hitting in those
moments right when you're. Scrolling AND i do think there's
a time and a place for. SCROLLING i get, It
BUT i also want us to, like, OH i can
feel the breeze coming through my open, window look at
the sun coming, Up like we need time to almost
just be present before we go into. That AND i
(18:30):
think similar to us talking about people struggling being, uncomfortable
we really struggle to be bored as, well and that
going straight to your phone is a beautiful way to
just kind of cure that, momentarily especially when you're a,
parent especially when you're working.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Hard it is very easy.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
To be, Like i'm just going to disassociate into the
internet for a little, bit and it feels. Nice it,
does BUT i also want to make sure that you're
creating enough space for yourself to just be, like, oh,
OKAY i woke. UP i got to wake up on
my own VERSUS i don't know about, you but it
drives me nuts when my kids come Like trella lying
in And i'm, like really, SLEEPING i do not do.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
No the two year olds be getting up at Four
he's been getting up angry at four four am because
he doesn't want to eat dinner and it's very. Frush
so last night we both like he didn't he was
like he was a baby. Again it's like he's looked
through the.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Night it was. Great, Yeah so it makes a.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Difference so sometimes it is, Like, OKAY i want to
go for a walk with my. Neighbor that MEANS i
need to get out of this. BED i cannot look
at my phone BECAUSE i know What i'm going to.
Do if that means you have to turn off your,
notifications sometimes you have to turn them off or let
them just come to your phone at a certain, time
that sort of. Thing so it is very, hard AND
i want it can sound really nice when you're listening to, us, like,
(19:48):
Wow asia had all these cool. Things that's not. Realistic
i'm not doing. That do what you are what's gonna
work for? You figure that. Out but WHAT i don't
want people to do is feel like it's, impossible so
they don't make any changes and then they're just stuck feeling.
Awful so it sometimes it takes, work like you have
to figure out what that tweak in your, life tweak
(20:11):
in your habits is going to be that's going to
allow you to feel. BETTER i mean you almost you
kind of, like and this often, happens you sort of
run through that list of other things.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
You could be. Doing you can, meditate take a, walk
call a. Friend but, like let's slow that down a
little bit and just talk through what that can look.
Like so let's say this is the beginning of the
month right, now AND i know personally that has become
a stressful time because all the big bills hit at
the beginning of the, month and you, KNOW i got
to move money from business pay make SURE i my
(20:42):
payroll runs and Like i'm the only, employee but like
THAT i pay myself and like is there going to be?
Enough and da da da, Da and it's so the
last week of the month, before like the last week Of,
april it can kind of just like you start to
feel that like the weight and the anxiousness around. It
(21:03):
AND i don't THINK i did the best job soothing
that this. WEEK i THINK i. WENT i kind of
fell back on some like old habits in terms of
like not shopping and things like, that but definitely like
internalizing a lot of. It so for someone like me
or someone who's listening who knows that there's a lot
(21:23):
of like, big you, know bills that are coming to
questions that have been, unanswered and opening up the computer
and just like getting the things done to get those
things paid can feel really. Overwhelming like it can feel
like a crisis in and of. Itself it can feel like,
paralysis like in your, experience what of those like coping
(21:47):
mechanisms that you talked about or other habits can help
like break you out of.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Me, Yeah i'm all that romanticizing something that you don't
want to. Do so if it is like opening up
your computer is your workspace clean when you come sit.
Down did you get dressed that? Morning do you feel
good about yourself when you're about to sit. DOWN i
will get dressed for no reason When i'm not even
gonna be on camera in any, way shape or. Form
(22:14):
it's just me Because i'm, LIKE i don't want to do,
This so how CAN i feel good doing? This SO
i want to give that to everybody. Listening how can
you feel good doing something that you don't want to?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Do for?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
ME i REALLY i don't really love, coffee BUT i
love coffee. Shops So i'll go to a coffee, shop
get some, tea and be, Like, Okay i'm going to
crank out this work THAT i KNOW i don't want
to do BECAUSE i like the, vibes and the vibes
are going to help. Me then start to do the
things THAT i don't necessarily want to. Do so how
can you romanticize you what you get to do and
(22:47):
what you have to do so that it's not feeling
so dreary and daunting and just, Know, OKAY i don't
want to do, this But i'm doing this because insert
blank here's good for my. BUSINESS i want to. GROW
i remember waiting for the DAY i would be in this.
Position i'm here. NOW i want to make Sure i'm
(23:07):
providing for my. Family whatever it is for, you whatever
your why, is kind of ground yourself in that before
you go into doing the things that you have to.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Do And i'm.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Sure and especially all of us who are running our
own businesses and, entrepreneurs there was a time where you
were hoping and wishing and begging to be where you
are at now and just grinding yourself and like younger
you and just being, like you know, WHAT i get
to do this BECAUSE i did all this work, before
AND i don't want, to but that's okay because it's
going to help my. Business so sometimes we just have
(23:39):
to ground ourselves in, romanticizing you, know the work that
we don't want to do as well as the work
that we get to do because our business is at this.
POINT i do like the idea of. ROMANTICIZING i also think,
that like tapping into your younger, self sometimes it's hard
to remember those things when you're in the tough, Moment so,
like what are some strategies to help us? Remember, like for,
(24:02):
example one of the things that has helped me a
lot is slowing down and writing out and kind of
answering some of those. Questions so, like is it maybe
having a, prompt like having a little journal where you
have some, questions like if you're in crisis, mode ask
yourself these.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Questions you, know what do you what do you?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
THINK i, Mean i'm a huge proponent of journaling and
writing and brain, dumping SO i think when people, journal
they always have there's kind of this tendency to be, like,
OH i need a, prompt what AM i journaling? ABOUT
i need to kind of start, it almost like a school,
Essay And i'm, like, yeah that's, great you, know but
sometimes you just need to get it.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
OUT i hope.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
SOMEONE i hope people never find my.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Journal sometimes you need.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
To sometimes you have to write the worst things you've ever.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Said that's what it's.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
FOR i pray no one ever finds my. Drum PRAY
i need to burn.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Them that's what they're. For i'm afraid of things That
i've written in. There, yeah that's oh my.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Goodness speaking of, That, LIKE i have a journal from
college that my HUSBAND i think he picked it up
or saw it and THEN i was, like, oh, yeah
you could read. IT i had no idea was in.
There oh my, goodness, GIRL i was going through. HEARTBREAK
i had poetry in. THERE i am not a, POET
i had poetry in. THERE i had like doodling how
ANGRY i.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Was it was just raw emotion in those.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Pages and when he read, IT i did feel a
little was, like oh my, god MAYBE i shouldn't have
let him read it like a little. Exposed BUT i was,
like you, know, me this was like twenty years. Ago that's,
okay AND i can laugh about it, now But i'm, like,
WOW i was going through.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
IT i found a lot of old letters from my,
childhood AND i was, like you, KNOW i don't need these.
ANYMORE i don't know Why i'm keeping. THESE i don't
need to remember all these like really intense. Moments CAN
i talk about you for a? Suck? YEAH i want
to where do you come? From like how did you
what's your origin? Story what's your story in j? General
(26:00):
how'd you get into this practice that you have?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Now?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah SO i grew up in Upstate New. York that's
that's WHERE i hail, from and both my parents are
From New York. City so it's something THAT i always.
KNEW i would always live there at some point in my.
Journey BUT i REALIZED i wanted to be a therapist very.
YOUNG i THINK i was, twelve and in True virgo,
FASHION i literally mapped out the schooling that would need to,
(26:25):
happen like WHAT i needed to do for years to
get to a point WHERE i could be a practicing
therapist and what that would look. Like and you, KNOW
i did those, things you, know went to, college went
to grad school for, counseling, psychology worked for two three years.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
In a day, rehab became a mental health. Therapist great.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Unlcensed at that POINT i was living In New York,
city which was. Great and then So i've been all
over mental health for the last fifteen, YEARS i would,
say just all over it anywhere from impatience and community
work as, well LIKE i, said rehab, clients, kids, adults.
(27:07):
Couples and Then i've been in private practice for about
my goodness eight, YEARS i think it. Is so three
of those were part time and then the last five
years have been full. Time but it was also DURING
covid and five years ago was also WHEN i decided
THAT i really wanted to niche down into financial therapy
(27:28):
and that happened by way of my own. JOURNEY i
fell in love with personal finance WHEN i was living
In New, york not understanding where my money was, going
really struggling to, understand like why didn't have more money
in my? Account why wasn't my credit card debt like
just disappearing BECAUSE i was paying the. BILL i just
didn't get. It and it's BECAUSE i didn't. Know and
AS i went on my own personal financial, journey if you,
(27:51):
will my, awakening that's WHEN i realized that my clients
didn't know. Either my clients didn't have a place where
they felt like they could talk about their, money feels
that they could just be honest about what was going.
On they would just be, Like, Oh i'm stressed about,
Money i'm stressed about this, Relationship i'm stressed about my,
family and then brush over AND i was, like oh, wait, wait.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Wait come back a little.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Bit let's talk about the money.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Piece and nobody was talking about, it AND i really was,
LIKE i need to learn more about. This who's doing,
this who's talking about? This and that's WHEN i found
The Financial Therapy, association which at this point Now i'm
the president of the board to, them So i've been heavily.
INVOLVED i found trauma of money and.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Got involved With virgo.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Energy It's virgo, overachiever eldest, daughter it's all.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Here it's all, here.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So and part, honestly it's part of my own money,
beliefs Right, like even THOUGH i know it is not,
TRUE i know that there's a part of me that
does believe IF i work, HARDER i will make. It
i'll be, Okay i'll get, there whatever that. Means and that's,
true and it's not. True like there's a lot of
people making a lot of money who aren't working, hard
(29:04):
and that's amazing for. Them BUT i need to figure,
out you, know for my own self and my own,
journey how to manage those feelings and the nuances of
what that looks like for my. Realities so WHEN i, say, like,
Listen i'm talking to my clients about you, guys but,
LIKE i still have to go through it. TOO i
still have to understand and dissect my own money, story
and a lot of THAT i did talk about and
(29:25):
share in the book as, well BECAUSE i always want
people to understand that you're not the only one going through.
This AND i think especially with, money it's very easy
to believe that nobody else has been here.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Before?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Gotcha so you are your twelve year old selves wildest,
dreams like you did. It. Yeah so the financial aspect,
though in, practice what does that look? Like is it
like half the session is mental health and like half
we're going to look at your. Budget how does That
i've never actually been through a session with a financial,
therapist so can you kind of talk me through what
(29:59):
that can?
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Look, SO i mean it can look like whatever you.
Want i'm very client focused and client. Led so if you're, like, Hey,
asia let's talk about the, numbers Or i'm telling, you,
hey it's time for us to talk about the, numbers.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Let's look at.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Them THEN i will sit down with my clients And
i'll take notes while they're, Like, okay these are my,
bills this is what this.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Costs let's build a budget. Together And i'll do that with.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Them but before we even get to the, numbers a
lot of the work that we've done is understanding what
their money story, Is understanding almost like their money autobiography
and what have they gone through in their upbringing that
led them to where they're at. Today and that is
When i'm pulling out different patterns or threads or themes
(30:44):
that have happened and continued throughout their life and what
might be impacting what they do with their money.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Today, hey ba, fam we got to take a quick,
break pay some bills and we'll be right. Back welcome,
back bea. Faan let's get back to the. Show and
are you working with like couples because Or i'm just
wondering individuals couples both? Both? Okay do you recommend like
(31:10):
if you're BECAUSE i just feel like if you're, married
or at least you're living, together if you're co mingling your,
finances if one person's in financial, therapy the other person
has to be. RIGHT i think it's so. Intertwined what
do you, think.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Especially if somebody is. Married so there are times WHEN
i have worked with people And i'm treating the couple.
Right so they're coming to me as a. Couple we
might be going through their money stories, individually just in
a like, tripod if you, Will so it's all three
of us here having that kind of. Conversation but the
problems that can happen if it's somebody seeing me they're
(31:43):
going through their money, story but something is getting lost
in communication when they're trying to talk to their, partner
or their partner isn't on board with what they're trying
to do or how they're trying to do. It and
Sometimes i'm, Like, okay let's have a couple, session bring
your partner. In we're all going to talk together and level.
Set And i'm able to do that SO i can
(32:05):
see an individual and if they want to bring their partner, in,
great let's chat about, it and THEN i can continue
seeing that. Individual i've had people Who i've started seeing
individually they're, like, oh, no we need to see you
as a, couple and then then we transition into just couple's,
work and that is very specific because we need to
kind of close out that relationship And i'm almost like
(32:26):
we're starting from square one as a couple BECAUSE i
don't want anybody to ever feel. Slided AND i also
make sure with the partner that this is SOMETHING i
feel good entering into If i've had an established relationship
with the other person. Before so there are a few
dynamics that come into. Play but, yeah both parties need
to be prepared to do this work and also be
(32:46):
prepared That i'm going to be in your, business Like
i'm going to be all up in your business and that's,
Hard like.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
What do you have a dashboard or, something or like
do you have to GET i.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Don't because password to, It like LIKE i don't want any.
Passwords i'm not touching your. Money i'm not looking at.
It but WHEN i say, that it's a lot of
people don't want to share how much they. Make they
may not have shared their salary with their. Partner they
have trouble saying out, loud, hey this is how much
it cost us to run our. Life those, numbers especially being.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Do you not do your taxes? Together how do you
not know what You're some people don't.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Know it is very. Shocking both parties in a marriage
do not always know what's happening. Financially it just kind
of gets done and that can cause a lot of.
Tension and what happens is that a lot of couples
don't talk about where each partner is coming, from like
(33:44):
their history and why they act the way they do
now in a partnership with the, money and that can CAUSE.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Freto can you talk about some of the themes that
come up for you when you're talking to, clients like
some of THE i think you. Like the way that
you expressed it earlier was like the stories that they're telling.
Themselves WHAT i really want to know is, like out
of the clients that you're working, with what's causing them
(34:13):
the most just like mental health, Struggle like what's causing
them the most stress financially and how are you helping?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Them SO i would say money avoidance is a huge
one for, People so that could be any money, Avoidance
so that could be somebody is just totally avoiding their.
Money they are not looking at their, bills they're not
looking at their, Accounts they're just kind of, hoping swiping
on a hope in a prayer and just being, LIKE
(34:42):
i hope it goes. THROUGH i, Hope i'm, Okay but
they're not. Looking so that comes up for. People money
hoarding comes up for, people which is LIKE i am
so worried about security or stability THAT i am hoarding
all of my money in a savings account THAT i can,
see THAT i can access any. TIME a lot of
(35:04):
times it's not even a high yield savings, account so
it's just a lot of money sitting in this little savings,
account And i'm, like we have got to move that
it cannot be, here and a lot of that is
coming from growing up and having less or worrying about
your financial. STABILITY a lot of that's growing coming from
(35:24):
a place of nobody taught me what to do with this,
money So i'm just going to hold on to. It
and that's like a tomorrow mean, problem but it keeps
getting pushed, off and a lot of my clients are
just dealing with what it looks like to be making
more money than their, parents live a different life than
they grew, up what it feels like to potentially feel
ostracized from a community while also trying to break into
(35:45):
a different, community and that leads itself to a lot
of identity work and just. Discomfort so When i'm working with,
clients What i'm trying to help them do is understand
why their past experiences are potentially harming where they want
to go. Financially and sometimes they, aren't and sometimes they
(36:06):
are and that's, okay but it's just not what they
want to be doing. Anymore they don't like it. Anymore
So i'm, Like, okay what can we do that's going
to get you closer to living your best? Life what
can we do that makes you feel like you can
be financially well and enjoy the things that you want to.
Enjoy because as much as we teach people to save,
money we also need to teach people to spend money.
(36:27):
Too so it's kind of this too prong approach of
healing from some of the past things that you've gone
through and understanding it's going to be a part of,
you but understanding that you don't need to hold on
to some of those old beliefs that don't apply to
your life. Anymore and a lot of that is just reality,
testing if you will Of, okay, well what's the worst
is going to? Happen tell me what's the catastrophe that
(36:49):
is going to. Happen that's going to mean that you're
going to be, homeless or your money's going to be totally,
gone or that if you look at your, money what's
going to? Happen and sometimes it's, like, well what happens
if it's at? Zero what happens if it's? Negative what
happens IF i have more money THAN i? Thought i'm, like, okay,
well guess. What we're still going to be in this.
(37:11):
Office it's still going to be me and you on
this video chat, together and then we're going to figure
out how you need to cope with the feelings that come,
up and we're going to talk about. It so it's
literally just one foot in front of the, other and
as you can, imagine it goes in many different ways
and many different nuances to each.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Individual you said people need to learn how to. Spend
do we really, LIKE i think we got that.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
DOWN i mean a lot of us, do but not.
Everybody not.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Everybody i'm very, concerned especially and this comes in with
people who are more like tend to hoard their money
and they don't want to spend their. Money, yeah they
do not want to spend their. Money they are very
concerned about what it's going to look like in the
future if they have. ENOUGH i wrote about in the
book as. WELL a friend's father so different generation than
(37:56):
my typical. CLIENTS i usually see people somewhere between like,
twenty so he is, older but he was telling, me
he's Like. Asia for, Decades i've been told to save this,
money to put it in, investments to squirrel away from my.
Retirement and Now i'm here and you want me to
just spend. It And i'm, like, yeah like don't Spend
(38:17):
you're not gonna go spend all of, it but, yes
please go, Enjoy please go travel with your wife or
hang out with your grandkids or your loved. Ones, like,
yeah do what you want to do within your, means but,
yes please go spend. It and that is a very
large struggle for him and for a lot of people
to feel LIKE i don't have anything, Incoming how CAN
(38:38):
i possibly just spend the?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
MONEY i, mean that's what retirement is supposed to. Be
but you're, RIGHT i can, Imagine like that's a big mental.
Shift like it also is like it kind of forces
you to confront mortality in a way that's, Uncomfortable, like you,
MEAN i don't have that much time, Left So i'm like.
Old is that what you're. Saying i'm not.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Old i'm like, no But i'm not.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Dying like you got to use.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
It you only have so many.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Years, yeah use it before you lose. It. YEAH i
was also thinking, about Like i've had to And i've
talked about this on the, show like get back in
touch with HOW i spend my money and like WHAT
i value and making sure that like How i'm spending
my money lines up with WHAT i SAY i value
(39:22):
and WHAT i actually, value because for, me that's HOW
i feel, Happier like with my, expenses like HOW i
can at least look at it and, say, well that
was you, know something it has to do with such
and such THAT i, value like for, example spending fifty
bucks on like a sound bath versus spending fifty bucks
(39:44):
ON i don't, know the eighteen pack of toothbrushes At
pj's and like seven rotisserie chickens or whatever cost fifty
dollars At pj's and being able to like tie that
to something THAT i, value like my mental, health like self,
care you, Know like can you talk a little bit about?
(40:06):
That and is that something that you've seen in your?
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Clients, yeah, WELL i think what happens with my clients
and is especially because of the, location, Right SO i
do believe that sometimes where you live can dictate what
you prioritize and what you. Value SO i am practicing
In New York. CITY i tend to see people who,
are LIKE i, said twenty five to forty. Five so
(40:31):
a lot of my clients are in the range of
just preparing for what it might look like to have a.
Family how do they prepare themselves to feel as stable
as they can to start expanding their. Family and when
you live in a city that really does prioritize going
out or spending a lot of money or looking a certain,
(40:52):
way it can feel hard to then, say, hey we
can't do as much as we were doing before because we're,
prioritizing you, KNOW ivf we're prioritizing saving for a, house
or we just want to make sure that we can
expand our family or take care of, family whatever it
looks like for. Them SO i think aligning your values
(41:13):
with how you want to spend your money is very
important for people to do and to spend some, time
whether it's, journaling thinking about, it making a, list to
understand so that when you are saying no to some,
things which can be very difficult to set the boundary
outside of yourself to say no to SAY i can't
Or i'm not going to go on that trip BECAUSE
(41:34):
i have something else going, on to ground yourself and
why you aren't doing the things that you used to
do because you're trying to get to your financial goal
of something. Else so a lot of that is fortifying
people to understand why their values are so important how
do they prioritize, them and then how do they set
healthy boundaries with other people so that they can continue
(41:54):
to prioritize them and feel good about.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
It, okay SO i know we don't have very much time,
left so why not talk about a huge topic That
i'll probably take in another, hour but, QUICKLY i the
REASON i want to. TALK i want to talk about,
shame financial. SHAME i actually got A dm from one
of my cousins who hadn't seen in a, while and
we were supposed to like see each other WHEN i
(42:18):
was back, home and you, know for whatever, reason we
didn't make it. Happen and SO i got this message
After i'd already, left and she was, saying, LIKE i
didn't know how to say, this But i'm actually having
a really hard. Time we're in between houses right, Now
we're really struggling, financially AND i didn't want you to
think of us as, trash you, know if if you
(42:38):
saw us and like it was really heartbreaking to me
BECAUSE i could just feel how much shame she had
for being in a challenging position and then you, know
needing a little bit of financial help in that. Moment
AND i at the same, TIME i was like proud
of her for saying, something because the antidote to shame
(42:59):
for me is like saying the thing out loud and
actually admitting that you're. Struggling but it did remind me
just of how much SHAME i think so many of
us are caring because we don't feel like we're doing
as well as we should be or as other people
think we should be or other people look like they're,
doing and that can cause a lot of. Suffering so
how does shame kind of play into all of this
(43:23):
and into your practice and working with your.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Clients shame comes up so frequently with my clients and
with money in. General, right it's not just like my
clients who are coming to me to have these types of.
Conversations it's, also AS i, know you know and can
see and can hear from other, people people are just
dealing with it. Silently AND i love what you said
about talking about it and bringing it up is the
(43:49):
antidote to, shame BECAUSE i completely. AGREE i think it
brings us out of this isolation and sadness and gloom
that we can create ourselves when we start to spiral
in our shame to Think i'm the only one who's
going through. This nobody else is going through. THIS i you,
know then the terrible things that you say to yourself
(44:11):
right start showing up to all of that, negativity and
it forces you inward versus forcing you outward where you
can feel loved and appreciated even though you are going
through a hard. Time so it comes up a lot
in my, practice AND i want to also share that
it comes up not just when people don't have, money
but when people. Do AND i think that is much
(44:34):
harder for us to grapple with because we want to,
believe especially In american, culture that if you have, money
everything is, great you have no. Problems but there's a
lot of people who have a lot of shame about
being wealthy. Too AND i would say just as much
shame as people who don't have the money when they
do have the. Money so it's just a very complex
(44:54):
thing that takes time to break up because it takes
time for people to be vulnerable enough to start bringing
it to light to Say i'm really struggling with the
financial MISTAKES i. Made i'm really struggling with What i'm
doing with my. MONEY i don't like, this And i'm
starting not to like myself because of, it AND i
think it can really quickly go down a slippery slope
(45:16):
when we start to almost attack your self, esteem when
you feel so isolated and so buried in your. Shame
and a lot of my work is reinforcing that people
are still worthy even if they don't feel great about their,
money don't feel great about money in, general have had,
debt are making a ton of, money are. Different it's
(45:39):
about figuring out how you can still love yourself and
how you can still take care of yourself even if
it's not the way that you want to be able
to right now to and also feel like you can
have a community that supports you even though this stuff
is going. On AND i want to be clear That
i'm not, saying, hey get up on your soapbox.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
And tell the world about your financial shame and tell the.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
World, no it doesn't have to be all of, that
but it could, Be, Hey i'm talking to my really
close family member about this AND i feel really bad about,
it OR i am calling that friend to just be
sad and to just, cry and Then i'm gonna go
about my.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Day so.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Pick you can, pick and choose who you share it.
With BUT i really encourage people to start talking about,
it because that's really what breaks up the isolation and
stops you from cocooning.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
In, yeah talk about, it and then hopefully you're speaking
to someone who could then encourage you on the step
toward yeah, something, yeah you, know to improve the situation
or just to like get through. It, well thank You
asia for joining me on Brown. Envision, finally this interview
is like a year in the making almost any last,
(46:50):
words where can people find? You?
Speaker 1 (46:52):
So you can find me On instagram AT Ajae, therapy
So i'm there on my, Website asiaevanscounseling dot, com and
you Can Feel Good finance wherever you get your. Books
but in, GENERAL i do want people to know that
you're not the only one going through. This that whether
it's shame or just feeling really bad about, yourself low self, esteem, depression,
(47:12):
anxiety other people are going through it, Too and people
that you do not expect to be going through it
are probably going through it too and want to have
these kinds of. Conversations so it might feel big and
scary at, first but it doesn't have.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
To always be that.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Way thank. You before we send folks to your. Website
are you taking new? Clients, yes SO i. HAVE i
THINK i have about three. SLOTS i have to double.
CHECK i was at three to. FIVE i just took
on two new, clients SO i THINK i have three slots. Left,
okay go get, in Ba. Fam keep her booked and.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Busy, yes, please.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
All, Right, asia thanks so much having me all, right Ba,
fam thank you so much for tuning into this week's.
EPISODE i want to hear from. You what did you?
Think did this? Episode did it get to you or
you feel a little less shame about your financial picture right?
Now are you gonna maybe call up a, friend your,
(48:05):
therapist a financial advisor and start chipping away at it
and releasing yourself from that. Shame i'd love to hear from.
You you can hit me Up bronambitionpodcast at gmail dot,
com or you CAN dm me At Brown Ambition podcast
AND i will be waiting for your. Message and, YES
i do, RESPOND i actually. Do WHILE i got, y'all Ba,
(48:27):
fam let me do a quick shout out to our
incredible listeners who took the time In may so far
to leave us a review On Apple. Podcasts oh my,
goodness thank you so. Much all, right we have one FROM.
Wgssf she says or he, no assume it's is?
Speaker 1 (48:44):
She?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yay? Moms Mandy, Love love love the episode about moms
With reina And. JESSICA i love how honest and thoughtful
your conversation was about the difficult balance that motherhood can.
Bring thank you for your candid takes on life and. Money,
Girl you're. Welcome if you all missed last Week's Mother's
day episode With Reina campbell From dreams And drive And
(49:06):
Jessica norwood From Sugar Daddy, podcast listen go check it.
Out whether you are a, mom you want to be a,
mom you like your, mom or you don't like your.
Mom maybe it'll help you understand her. Better go listen
to last week's episode and then listener our N optional
says so good five, stars been listening for. Years mandy's
(49:28):
handling solo hosting with great roundtables and continues to bring amazing.
GUESTS i also love how vulnerable she is in her motherhood.
Season keeping it real is how we support each. Other hell,
yes thank you so. Much and To Ae jackson says
Love Brown ambition five. Stars i've been listening To Brand
(49:49):
ambition since twenty twenty and it's helped me grow so.
Much every episode has something new for me to. Learn
mandy does such a great job of utilizing personal experiences
to make career finance topics feel real and, applicable AND
i love her guests at THE Ba Brown table. Too
can't wait to see how the show continues to. Evolve
thank y'all so. Much please leave us a. Review you
(50:12):
can leave it On Apple podcasts Or. Spotify those are
the two best places. Review however many stars you, wish of,
Course i'm always hoping for, five BUT i do read
each and everyone AND i just can't thank y'all. Enough all,
right until next, time BY Ba fam okay va, Fam
thank you so much for listening to this week's. SHOW
(50:34):
i want to shout out to our production, Team, courtney our, Editor,
carla our fearless leader for idea to launch. PRODUCTIONS i
want to shout out my Assistant Lauda escalante And cameron
McNair for helping me put the show. Together it is
not a one person, project as much AS i have
tried to make it so these past ten, YEARS i
(50:56):
need help, y'all and thank Goodness i've been able to
put this team around me to support me on this,
journey and to y'all ba, FAM i love you so
so so so. Much please, rate, review, Subscribe make sure
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(51:19):
Bye
Shame comes up so frequently with my clients and with
money in general. Right, it's not just like my clients
who are coming to me to have these types of conversations.
It's also, as I know you know and can see
and can hear from other people, people are just dealing
with it silently. And I love what you said about
talking about it and bringing it up is the antidote
(00:22):
to shame, because I completely agree. I think it brings
us out of this isolation and sadness and gloom that
we can create ourselves when we start to spiral in
our shame to think I'm the only one who's going
through this, nobody else is going through this. I you know,
then the terrible things that you say to yourself right
(00:44):
start showing up to all of that negativity, and it
forces you inward versus forcing you outward where you can
feel loved and appreciated even though you were going through
a hard time.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey, ba fam, it's your host, Mandy Money. I sat
down with Asia Evans this week. Asia is a financial therapist.
She's the author of a book called Feel Good Finance.
And yes she is taking new clients, but only a few,
So maybe if you like what you hear on today's episode,
you can go check out her website. I'll put it
in the show notes. But Asia and I sat down
(01:24):
to talk about debt, and even just saying that word
makes me want to throw open my mouth a little bit.
My relationship to debt is probably as dysfunctional as anyone else's,
and at this time in our economy, it's very common
to hear pieces of personal finance advice about paying down
your debt, consolidating your debt, getting your debt under control,
(01:45):
and saving. But if we can't get through the shame
of even having debt in the first place, then ba fam,
how do we even start getting ourselves out of it?
On today's show, Asia and I are going to talk
about how we actually get more comfortable being uncomfortable, and
how that can lead us on a path toward finally
paying down debt and releasing ourselves from the shame of it.
(02:08):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back jump in. Asia, I
want you to ask me what you just asked.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So I think, looking at why we have such a
hard time feeling uncomfortable, and I don't say just we
as in me and you, I mean we as a
human collective, Why are humans so afraid to be uncomfortable?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I love that question so much. It's funny because it's like, well, duh,
you're a therapist, so of course you know that that's
a crucial question to ask. But it is one of
the key questions I have been working on to answer
this past year of my life. I've been on this
big mental health journey where I was just like, so overwhelmed.
I'm sure that with ba fam, with all the things.
(02:56):
I mean, I think I'm just like, if you look
at my situation, like what's wrong with her, it's like, oh,
she's just a modern woman in her late thirties with kids,
a mortgage, a business, a husband, and family and friends,
and she's this is what happens when you try to
do all the things, and this day and age is like,
of course you're struggling. And for me, the big journey
(03:20):
has been how to sit in that discomfort and how
to not obsessively or not obsessively, but how not to
be afraid of it so that you're constantly trying to
fix it. And I want to talk about the ways,
like when we're not able to cope with just being uncomfortable,
being anxious, not being financially secure, not having whatever it
(03:44):
is that you want going on in your life. Like,
in what ways are we hurting ourselves by constantly trying
to fix that discomfort?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
That's a beautiful question, And I don't think that we
think enough about how we're hurting ourselves trying to just
get out of that uncomfortable feeling. So a lot of
times when you are, you know, there are the classics.
You overspend, you go shopping, you order take out, you
book a last minute trip where you know it's going
(04:13):
to be far more expensive than it would have booked
if you you know, planned it out a little bit
more or gave it.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Some times you had a.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Really terrible day and you're like, whatever, just do it.
Throw caution to the wind.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, correct, Like you know, I only live once. This
is ridiculous, Nothing matters. Everything is crashing out all over
the world. It feels so hopeless. But what I want
people to understand is that when you are in that moment,
when you're in fight or flight, when you're in that crisis,
your body is screaming at you to do something to
(04:45):
make you feel more comfortable. That's just instinctually, that's what
humans go through, and I want that thing that you're
going to do, whatever that coping strategy is, to be
something that you are going it's going to put you
in a better situation longer term. So when we are
in a crisis and we're reaching for our cards, we're
(05:07):
reaching for our phone, we're ready to double tap, we're
ready to just hit purchase hit by. That is a
short term win. It is in the short term, going
to make you feel better, and it does work, to
be clear, Like a lot of those things do work.
You get that quick spike of dopamine and you're like, Okay,
everything's great, I feel good. But the problem with that
(05:28):
is that it doesn't last long and you will go
right back to where you were before if you don't
actually start addressing how you handle stress, how you handle
that level of discomfort in a way that is a
little bit more, a little less short sighted, and aiming
at a long term change and shift in your life. So,
(05:51):
and I'll give an example of something that I did
just recently. I myself was having a hard time just
managing everything that you just said, because that's me too.
A woman in her late thirties, two young kids, six
an under and trying to build a business, trying to
show up for my clients, trying to promote my book,
trying to do all these things at the same time,
(06:12):
while I'm like, oh, I'm ready to get fit again
and I'm ready to spend time with my friends again.
And I honestly was just having a really hard time.
And I was like, Asia, what would you tell one
of your clients. I would tell them to feel the feels.
So I just sat there and I cried and I
was sad, and I'm like, I'm so upset and spiraled.
And then I did a really hard workout. And for me,
(06:35):
when I'm in that kind of space, i don't want
to do the workout. I'm not getting on that peloton
bike like I can't wait to take this class. No,
I'm cursing myself out. I'm upset that.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I'm doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I'm angry, and midway through the workout is when I'm like, Okay,
you were making it through this workout. This is awful.
This feels bad.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Listening to the motivational Tune Day telling me what I
need to do.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Tune Day just too incandescent. She's just too stunning. Study. Yes,
it's just like stunning, the bar is too high.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah. I was like, listen, we're not gonna look like
Tune Day today.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah. Man, I mean, but that's why she got the
job right aspiration.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
She's good at it. She is good at it. So
sometimes I just need somebody to yell at me to
crank the resistance and pedal faster and after that, and
I'll be honest like I tap in and and cry
while I'm on the bike. I cried during my workouts.
I cried during yoga. I'm a pretty emotional person. I'm expressing,
but that's what I needed to then release that.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Oh you're one of those ones who gets a deep
stretch and you like unlock trauma.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, looking for that stretch.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I'm waiting for the stretch that just lets me get
it all out because I watched those TikTok and I'm like, oh,
that looks nice. Let me try that.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
It hasn't happened yet.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
It's mostly for me, honestly, and I think this it
talks about what we're talking about right now. It is
mindset for me because I'm not just saying, oh I
need to get through this workout. I need to get
through this pose or whatnot. It's you are strong. You
can push through this. You have pushed through this before.
You may feel alone, you may feel like you're the
(08:26):
only one going through this, but you will be okay.
And that's when I'm weeping, and it is just a
reminder of what my strengths are and what I'm pushing
for and why I'm doing this. So I'm having a
whole internal therapy session on myself when I'm working out,
because I really do believe it's about mindset and that's
(08:48):
what I want people to work on. When you find
yourself reaching for something that's a little bit more short term,
I want you to start thinking about, hey, what can
I do right now when I'm feeling so bad that
is going to help me feel better even tomorrow, and
that it could be something so small. You could meditate,
you can exercise, you can take a shower, do something
(09:10):
that is not going to be detrimental to yourself or
to your finances. If you are going to feel bad
about that coping strategy that you used in that moment tomorrow,
then we cannot do it. I don't want you to
continue the longevity of feeling bad because you're like, oh,
I'm mad that I did it that way. I'm mad
(09:30):
I got out of that feeling that way because I
don't think that's really what you want. You're trying to
find relief, but not a lot of people understand what
they need and that takes time.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
To Yeah, one of the ways that my anxiety was manifesting,
like in terms of like the way I was coping
with it after I had my two year old couple
years ago. I would drop off my son, my older son,
at school, and then I would like and you know,
drop the baby off a daycare or whatever, and I'd
have a lot of stuff going on to catch up on,
(10:01):
and I would come up with a grocery shopping. I'd like, Oh,
I need to go grocery shopping, and I would like
spend and it doesn't feel like it's bad because it's
grocery shopping, you know, but I would turn it into
like a very long trip and I'd be out there
for like two hours. Maybe I would go to one
store and then I would go to another like Marshals
(10:23):
or home Goods or whatever, and it would all feel
like I'm doing it for the family, but I was
also like avoiding, you know, the overwhelming amount of things
on my plate, and the it's not just like the
overwhelming amount of things, but the overwhelming amount of unfinalized, unanswered,
unfinished things, like the open endedness, you know how those
(10:45):
like it'll be an email thread and you haven't responded
in a day, and then that becomes two days, and
then it becomes three, and each day you're like, why
haven't I responded? This is like so rude, and then
you just that anxiety stops you from doing the thing
and just responding. So that for me is something that
I won't even say was is something that I continue
(11:09):
to try and cope with. But what I've had to
do is like identify what those behaviors are. You see
me shopping at BJS. You're not thinking, oh, wow, she's
really like avoiding some stressful you know, she's a business
owner who's really just like cope, like trying to self soothe,
you know, in the Hamper's aisle at BJ's right now.
(11:30):
But I have to recognize, like it's like naming those
behaviors and recognizing what it actually is. And that requires
a level of like self awareness and self honesty that
I think is really challenging, Like to actually get quiet
with yourself and say this is something that I do
(11:52):
to soothe myself, this is a behavior that I'm doing
and for my own like for my own long term good,
I need to stop this behavior and do something different.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
I so deeply understand that, and I feel like that's
literally what feel good finance is about. Like literally, that's
exactly what I'm trying to help people do, is to
take the time to get honest with themselves, to identify
what the feelings are, what your triggers are, and then
what you do that you don't really like that you're doing.
(12:25):
So it could be yes, you can still go to BJ's,
you can still go grocery shopping, but before you do that,
you're gonna go call a friend and just be like, Hey,
I'm so overwhelmed, this is whild My email box is
looking insane and I don't want to tackle it. So
I'm gonna go to the grocery store, but talk me
through what I'm eating this week, Like let's talk about
like how I'm planning to go to the grocery store
(12:46):
versus like I we really need this eighteen pack of
toothbrushes from BJ's, Like we need that, right, yes, and
we also need you know, all the things that you
end up buying when you're in these stores that you
can just if I for your family, and some of
them I'm sure you do really need. But a lot
of it, to your point, could be coming from your
desire to self soothe and how you are self soothing
(13:11):
through that, not even the stuff that.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Makes me feel better. It's like it's just the time,
Like I will go slow, I'll go up and down
every aisle. It may not be that I spend an
obscene amount of money, it's like the act itself is
like it's it's a distraction. It's a distraction. I love
what you said about like calling the friend in advance.
(13:34):
I also feel like being able to well one thing
is like being an entrepreneur and being at home alone.
Everything does feel like it's so you're the only one.
Like if I'm having a stressful day, I'm looking left
and right. I got my dog who doesn't care, and
the walls. Yeah, and it's don't you feel like sometimes
(14:00):
it is? You can have all the friends and community,
and I know black women one thing we love to
do is build community. But sometimes when you're in that moment,
it can feel like the biggest task ever to reach out, text, call,
go outside, knock on someone's door. You know, which may
sound completely forign to someone listening. You can feel so hard.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, and it is.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
It is hard, And I think you need to know
what you need right. So for somebody like me, I
love to talk it out. I am a verbal processor,
which is very interesting because majority of my life is
built un listening to people. But for me personally, I
do need to talk it out. I do need to
verbally process like my thoughts and my feelings. So I
(14:45):
know that that is going to be something that can
help me when I'm having a hard time. But if
you know that reaching out for help in that moment
is going to be hard, let's find something else that
is a little bit easier, that doesn't feel like it's
going to be a new uphill battle. We want this
to be something very easily accessible that you can just
go to very quickly without having to think about it.
(15:07):
And if that's calling a friend, great, I love that,
But it could be something else before you get to
that point. But the most important part of this whole
cycle is to identify, Oh, I need to do something
before I go to that other coping strategy that you know.
I don't mind that I do, but maybe I want
to do something differently.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Hey, ba fam, we're going to take a quick break
and be right back with more of my conversation with
financial therapist Asia Evans. All right, ba Fam, we're back.
In your book, do you talk about like the impact
that the noise around us can have? Like you may
be fine, but you good on your phone, you read
the news and it's like, wait, the GDP's down this
(15:50):
this month, this quarter, or it was down the first
quarter or twenty twenty five, and it's like, oh, only
one more, only one more down GDP And officially we're
in a recession, but I won't know for another quarter. Right, So,
like all of a sudden, you could feel very anxious
and then you're like what do I do with this feeling?
Do you talk about that? Like what would you say
(16:11):
to people like me who are struggling with that?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, in the book, I don't really talk about that specifically.
I do talk about the noise of social media and
how quickly we can, you know, fall into comparing ourselves
and go that route. But what I will say to
you if this is something that you're struggling with shut
out the noise. And that's the same advice I would get.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Oh yeah, that was me at six am.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Right like, do not and I you know, I am you,
you are me.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
We're all living the same you know, pattern of reality
on the spectrum of the same reality. Do not pick
up your phone at six am and start scrolling or
looking at the news app like now is just not
the time in our lives. You can go do that
at a time in your day, but six am, when
(17:00):
you're opening your eyes and you could potentially feel like, oh,
today is a beautiful day. Going straight into our news
cycle right now is not the time. There's nothing good
there right now, like we're not finding it right now
the headlines.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Start that way.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah good. I don't I don't start.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Looking, you know, like no, no, no, I mean I
don't intentionally go to my phone for the news. I
will go to respond to a text from my mom,
which I was doing, or check I got some blood
work results and I was like scanning through the blood
work and then I start googling what this you know
acronym means when I should just wait for my doctor
to call me. And then next thing, you know, it's like,
oh oops, I'm like reading some news that just popped up,
(17:41):
and then yeah, it's like a it's a slippery slope.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It is.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Also it's like one of my neighbors we had this
like kind of we started this walking ritual that we've
fallen off of, and I woke up at six' ten
AND i, said, Oh i'm up early. ENOUGH i should.
GO i should Textl in and we should go for this.
Walk AND i was in bed on my phone until seven,
Fifteen so over an HOUR i spent in bed on
(18:05):
my phone doom. Scrolling yeah and, noo it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
The, best but, again the dopamine is hitting in those
moments right when you're. Scrolling AND i do think there's
a time and a place for. SCROLLING i get, It
BUT i also want us to, like, OH i can
feel the breeze coming through my open, window look at
the sun coming, Up like we need time to almost
just be present before we go into. That AND i
(18:30):
think similar to us talking about people struggling being, uncomfortable
we really struggle to be bored as, well and that
going straight to your phone is a beautiful way to
just kind of cure that, momentarily especially when you're a,
parent especially when you're working.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Hard it is very easy.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
To be, Like i'm just going to disassociate into the
internet for a little, bit and it feels. Nice it,
does BUT i also want to make sure that you're
creating enough space for yourself to just be, like, oh,
OKAY i woke. UP i got to wake up on
my own VERSUS i don't know about, you but it
drives me nuts when my kids come Like trella lying
in And i'm, like really, SLEEPING i do not do.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
No the two year olds be getting up at Four
he's been getting up angry at four four am because
he doesn't want to eat dinner and it's very. Frush
so last night we both like he didn't he was
like he was a baby. Again it's like he's looked
through the.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Night it was. Great, Yeah so it makes a.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Difference so sometimes it is, Like, OKAY i want to
go for a walk with my. Neighbor that MEANS i
need to get out of this. BED i cannot look
at my phone BECAUSE i know What i'm going to.
Do if that means you have to turn off your,
notifications sometimes you have to turn them off or let
them just come to your phone at a certain, time
that sort of. Thing so it is very, hard AND
i want it can sound really nice when you're listening to, us, like,
(19:48):
Wow asia had all these cool. Things that's not. Realistic
i'm not doing. That do what you are what's gonna
work for? You figure that. Out but WHAT i don't
want people to do is feel like it's, impossible so
they don't make any changes and then they're just stuck feeling.
Awful so it sometimes it takes, work like you have
to figure out what that tweak in your, life tweak
(20:11):
in your habits is going to be that's going to
allow you to feel. BETTER i mean you almost you
kind of, like and this often, happens you sort of
run through that list of other things.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
You could be. Doing you can, meditate take a, walk
call a. Friend but, like let's slow that down a
little bit and just talk through what that can look.
Like so let's say this is the beginning of the
month right, now AND i know personally that has become
a stressful time because all the big bills hit at
the beginning of the, month and you, KNOW i got
to move money from business pay make SURE i my
(20:42):
payroll runs and Like i'm the only, employee but like
THAT i pay myself and like is there going to be?
Enough and da da da, Da and it's so the
last week of the month, before like the last week Of,
april it can kind of just like you start to
feel that like the weight and the anxiousness around. It
(21:03):
AND i don't THINK i did the best job soothing
that this. WEEK i THINK i. WENT i kind of
fell back on some like old habits in terms of
like not shopping and things like, that but definitely like
internalizing a lot of. It so for someone like me
or someone who's listening who knows that there's a lot
(21:23):
of like, big you, know bills that are coming to
questions that have been, unanswered and opening up the computer
and just like getting the things done to get those
things paid can feel really. Overwhelming like it can feel
like a crisis in and of. Itself it can feel like,
paralysis like in your, experience what of those like coping
(21:47):
mechanisms that you talked about or other habits can help
like break you out of.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Me, Yeah i'm all that romanticizing something that you don't
want to. Do so if it is like opening up
your computer is your workspace clean when you come sit.
Down did you get dressed that? Morning do you feel
good about yourself when you're about to sit. DOWN i
will get dressed for no reason When i'm not even
gonna be on camera in any, way shape or. Form
(22:14):
it's just me Because i'm, LIKE i don't want to do,
This so how CAN i feel good doing? This SO
i want to give that to everybody. Listening how can
you feel good doing something that you don't want to?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Do for?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
ME i REALLY i don't really love, coffee BUT i
love coffee. Shops So i'll go to a coffee, shop
get some, tea and be, Like, Okay i'm going to
crank out this work THAT i KNOW i don't want
to do BECAUSE i like the, vibes and the vibes
are going to help. Me then start to do the
things THAT i don't necessarily want to. Do so how
can you romanticize you what you get to do and
(22:47):
what you have to do so that it's not feeling
so dreary and daunting and just, Know, OKAY i don't
want to do, this But i'm doing this because insert
blank here's good for my. BUSINESS i want to. GROW
i remember waiting for the DAY i would be in this.
Position i'm here. NOW i want to make Sure i'm
(23:07):
providing for my. Family whatever it is for, you whatever
your why, is kind of ground yourself in that before
you go into doing the things that you have to.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Do And i'm.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Sure and especially all of us who are running our
own businesses and, entrepreneurs there was a time where you
were hoping and wishing and begging to be where you
are at now and just grinding yourself and like younger
you and just being, like you know, WHAT i get
to do this BECAUSE i did all this work, before
AND i don't want, to but that's okay because it's
going to help my. Business so sometimes we just have
(23:39):
to ground ourselves in, romanticizing you, know the work that
we don't want to do as well as the work
that we get to do because our business is at this.
POINT i do like the idea of. ROMANTICIZING i also think,
that like tapping into your younger, self sometimes it's hard
to remember those things when you're in the tough, Moment so,
like what are some strategies to help us? Remember, like for,
(24:02):
example one of the things that has helped me a
lot is slowing down and writing out and kind of
answering some of those. Questions so, like is it maybe
having a, prompt like having a little journal where you
have some, questions like if you're in crisis, mode ask
yourself these.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Questions you, know what do you what do you?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
THINK i, Mean i'm a huge proponent of journaling and
writing and brain, dumping SO i think when people, journal
they always have there's kind of this tendency to be, like,
OH i need a, prompt what AM i journaling? ABOUT
i need to kind of start, it almost like a school,
Essay And i'm, like, yeah that's, great you, know but
sometimes you just need to get it.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
OUT i hope.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
SOMEONE i hope people never find my.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Journal sometimes you need.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
To sometimes you have to write the worst things you've ever.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Said that's what it's.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
FOR i pray no one ever finds my. Drum PRAY
i need to burn.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Them that's what they're. For i'm afraid of things That
i've written in. There, yeah that's oh my.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Goodness speaking of, That, LIKE i have a journal from
college that my HUSBAND i think he picked it up
or saw it and THEN i was, like, oh, yeah
you could read. IT i had no idea was in.
There oh my, goodness, GIRL i was going through. HEARTBREAK
i had poetry in. THERE i am not a, POET
i had poetry in. THERE i had like doodling how
ANGRY i.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Was it was just raw emotion in those.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Pages and when he read, IT i did feel a
little was, like oh my, god MAYBE i shouldn't have
let him read it like a little. Exposed BUT i was,
like you, know, me this was like twenty years. Ago that's,
okay AND i can laugh about it, now But i'm, like,
WOW i was going through.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
IT i found a lot of old letters from my,
childhood AND i was, like you, KNOW i don't need these.
ANYMORE i don't know Why i'm keeping. THESE i don't
need to remember all these like really intense. Moments CAN
i talk about you for a? Suck? YEAH i want
to where do you come? From like how did you
what's your origin? Story what's your story in j? General
(26:00):
how'd you get into this practice that you have?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Now?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah SO i grew up in Upstate New. York that's
that's WHERE i hail, from and both my parents are
From New York. City so it's something THAT i always.
KNEW i would always live there at some point in my.
Journey BUT i REALIZED i wanted to be a therapist very.
YOUNG i THINK i was, twelve and in True virgo,
FASHION i literally mapped out the schooling that would need to,
(26:25):
happen like WHAT i needed to do for years to
get to a point WHERE i could be a practicing
therapist and what that would look. Like and you, KNOW
i did those, things you, know went to, college went
to grad school for, counseling, psychology worked for two three years.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
In a day, rehab became a mental health. Therapist great.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Unlcensed at that POINT i was living In New York,
city which was. Great and then So i've been all
over mental health for the last fifteen, YEARS i would,
say just all over it anywhere from impatience and community
work as, well LIKE i, said rehab, clients, kids, adults.
(27:07):
Couples and Then i've been in private practice for about
my goodness eight, YEARS i think it. Is so three
of those were part time and then the last five
years have been full. Time but it was also DURING
covid and five years ago was also WHEN i decided
THAT i really wanted to niche down into financial therapy
(27:28):
and that happened by way of my own. JOURNEY i
fell in love with personal finance WHEN i was living
In New, york not understanding where my money was, going
really struggling to, understand like why didn't have more money
in my? Account why wasn't my credit card debt like
just disappearing BECAUSE i was paying the. BILL i just
didn't get. It and it's BECAUSE i didn't. Know and
AS i went on my own personal financial, journey if you,
(27:51):
will my, awakening that's WHEN i realized that my clients
didn't know. Either my clients didn't have a place where
they felt like they could talk about their, money feels
that they could just be honest about what was going.
On they would just be, Like, Oh i'm stressed about,
Money i'm stressed about this, Relationship i'm stressed about my,
family and then brush over AND i was, like oh, wait, wait.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Wait come back a little.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Bit let's talk about the money.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Piece and nobody was talking about, it AND i really was,
LIKE i need to learn more about. This who's doing,
this who's talking about? This and that's WHEN i found
The Financial Therapy, association which at this point Now i'm
the president of the board to, them So i've been heavily.
INVOLVED i found trauma of money and.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Got involved With virgo.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Energy It's virgo, overachiever eldest, daughter it's all.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Here it's all, here.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So and part, honestly it's part of my own money,
beliefs Right, like even THOUGH i know it is not,
TRUE i know that there's a part of me that
does believe IF i work, HARDER i will make. It
i'll be, Okay i'll get, there whatever that. Means and that's,
true and it's not. True like there's a lot of
people making a lot of money who aren't working, hard
(29:04):
and that's amazing for. Them BUT i need to figure,
out you, know for my own self and my own,
journey how to manage those feelings and the nuances of
what that looks like for my. Realities so WHEN i, say, like,
Listen i'm talking to my clients about you, guys but,
LIKE i still have to go through it. TOO i
still have to understand and dissect my own money, story
and a lot of THAT i did talk about and
(29:25):
share in the book as, well BECAUSE i always want
people to understand that you're not the only one going through.
This AND i think especially with, money it's very easy
to believe that nobody else has been here.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Before?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Gotcha so you are your twelve year old selves wildest,
dreams like you did. It. Yeah so the financial aspect,
though in, practice what does that look? Like is it
like half the session is mental health and like half
we're going to look at your. Budget how does That
i've never actually been through a session with a financial,
therapist so can you kind of talk me through what
(29:59):
that can?
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Look, SO i mean it can look like whatever you.
Want i'm very client focused and client. Led so if you're, like, Hey,
asia let's talk about the, numbers Or i'm telling, you,
hey it's time for us to talk about the, numbers.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Let's look at.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Them THEN i will sit down with my clients And
i'll take notes while they're, Like, okay these are my,
bills this is what this.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Costs let's build a budget. Together And i'll do that with.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Them but before we even get to the, numbers a
lot of the work that we've done is understanding what
their money story, Is understanding almost like their money autobiography
and what have they gone through in their upbringing that
led them to where they're at. Today and that is
When i'm pulling out different patterns or threads or themes
(30:44):
that have happened and continued throughout their life and what
might be impacting what they do with their money.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Today, hey ba, fam we got to take a quick,
break pay some bills and we'll be right. Back welcome,
back bea. Faan let's get back to the. Show and
are you working with like couples because Or i'm just
wondering individuals couples both? Both? Okay do you recommend like
(31:10):
if you're BECAUSE i just feel like if you're, married
or at least you're living, together if you're co mingling your,
finances if one person's in financial, therapy the other person
has to be. RIGHT i think it's so. Intertwined what
do you, think.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Especially if somebody is. Married so there are times WHEN
i have worked with people And i'm treating the couple.
Right so they're coming to me as a. Couple we
might be going through their money stories, individually just in
a like, tripod if you, Will so it's all three
of us here having that kind of. Conversation but the
problems that can happen if it's somebody seeing me they're
(31:43):
going through their money, story but something is getting lost
in communication when they're trying to talk to their, partner
or their partner isn't on board with what they're trying
to do or how they're trying to do. It and
Sometimes i'm, Like, okay let's have a couple, session bring
your partner. In we're all going to talk together and level.
Set And i'm able to do that SO i can
(32:05):
see an individual and if they want to bring their partner, in,
great let's chat about, it and THEN i can continue
seeing that. Individual i've had people Who i've started seeing
individually they're, like, oh, no we need to see you
as a, couple and then then we transition into just couple's,
work and that is very specific because we need to
kind of close out that relationship And i'm almost like
(32:26):
we're starting from square one as a couple BECAUSE i
don't want anybody to ever feel. Slided AND i also
make sure with the partner that this is SOMETHING i
feel good entering into If i've had an established relationship
with the other person. Before so there are a few
dynamics that come into. Play but, yeah both parties need
to be prepared to do this work and also be
(32:46):
prepared That i'm going to be in your, business Like
i'm going to be all up in your business and that's,
Hard like.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
What do you have a dashboard or, something or like
do you have to GET i.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Don't because password to, It like LIKE i don't want any.
Passwords i'm not touching your. Money i'm not looking at.
It but WHEN i say, that it's a lot of
people don't want to share how much they. Make they
may not have shared their salary with their. Partner they
have trouble saying out, loud, hey this is how much
it cost us to run our. Life those, numbers especially being.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Do you not do your taxes? Together how do you
not know what You're some people don't.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Know it is very. Shocking both parties in a marriage
do not always know what's happening. Financially it just kind
of gets done and that can cause a lot of.
Tension and what happens is that a lot of couples
don't talk about where each partner is coming, from like
(33:44):
their history and why they act the way they do
now in a partnership with the, money and that can CAUSE.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Freto can you talk about some of the themes that
come up for you when you're talking to, clients like
some of THE i think you. Like the way that
you expressed it earlier was like the stories that they're telling.
Themselves WHAT i really want to know is, like out
of the clients that you're working, with what's causing them
(34:13):
the most just like mental health, Struggle like what's causing
them the most stress financially and how are you helping?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Them SO i would say money avoidance is a huge
one for, People so that could be any money, Avoidance
so that could be somebody is just totally avoiding their.
Money they are not looking at their, bills they're not
looking at their, Accounts they're just kind of, hoping swiping
on a hope in a prayer and just being, LIKE
(34:42):
i hope it goes. THROUGH i, Hope i'm, Okay but
they're not. Looking so that comes up for. People money
hoarding comes up for, people which is LIKE i am
so worried about security or stability THAT i am hoarding
all of my money in a savings account THAT i can,
see THAT i can access any. TIME a lot of
(35:04):
times it's not even a high yield savings, account so
it's just a lot of money sitting in this little savings,
account And i'm, like we have got to move that
it cannot be, here and a lot of that is
coming from growing up and having less or worrying about
your financial. STABILITY a lot of that's growing coming from
(35:24):
a place of nobody taught me what to do with this,
money So i'm just going to hold on to. It
and that's like a tomorrow mean, problem but it keeps
getting pushed, off and a lot of my clients are
just dealing with what it looks like to be making
more money than their, parents live a different life than
they grew, up what it feels like to potentially feel
ostracized from a community while also trying to break into
(35:45):
a different, community and that leads itself to a lot
of identity work and just. Discomfort so When i'm working with,
clients What i'm trying to help them do is understand
why their past experiences are potentially harming where they want
to go. Financially and sometimes they, aren't and sometimes they
(36:06):
are and that's, okay but it's just not what they
want to be doing. Anymore they don't like it. Anymore
So i'm, Like, okay what can we do that's going
to get you closer to living your best? Life what
can we do that makes you feel like you can
be financially well and enjoy the things that you want to.
Enjoy because as much as we teach people to save,
money we also need to teach people to spend money.
(36:27):
Too so it's kind of this too prong approach of
healing from some of the past things that you've gone
through and understanding it's going to be a part of,
you but understanding that you don't need to hold on
to some of those old beliefs that don't apply to
your life. Anymore and a lot of that is just reality,
testing if you will Of, okay, well what's the worst
is going to? Happen tell me what's the catastrophe that
(36:49):
is going to. Happen that's going to mean that you're
going to be, homeless or your money's going to be totally,
gone or that if you look at your, money what's
going to? Happen and sometimes it's, like, well what happens
if it's at? Zero what happens if it's? Negative what
happens IF i have more money THAN i? Thought i'm, like, okay,
well guess. What we're still going to be in this.
(37:11):
Office it's still going to be me and you on
this video chat, together and then we're going to figure
out how you need to cope with the feelings that come,
up and we're going to talk about. It so it's
literally just one foot in front of the, other and
as you can, imagine it goes in many different ways
and many different nuances to each.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Individual you said people need to learn how to. Spend
do we really, LIKE i think we got that.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
DOWN i mean a lot of us, do but not.
Everybody not.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Everybody i'm very, concerned especially and this comes in with
people who are more like tend to hoard their money
and they don't want to spend their. Money, yeah they
do not want to spend their. Money they are very
concerned about what it's going to look like in the
future if they have. ENOUGH i wrote about in the
book as. WELL a friend's father so different generation than
(37:56):
my typical. CLIENTS i usually see people somewhere between like,
twenty so he is, older but he was telling, me
he's Like. Asia for, Decades i've been told to save this,
money to put it in, investments to squirrel away from my.
Retirement and Now i'm here and you want me to
just spend. It And i'm, like, yeah like don't Spend
(38:17):
you're not gonna go spend all of, it but, yes
please go, Enjoy please go travel with your wife or
hang out with your grandkids or your loved. Ones, like,
yeah do what you want to do within your, means but,
yes please go spend. It and that is a very
large struggle for him and for a lot of people
to feel LIKE i don't have anything, Incoming how CAN
(38:38):
i possibly just spend the?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
MONEY i, mean that's what retirement is supposed to. Be
but you're, RIGHT i can, Imagine like that's a big mental.
Shift like it also is like it kind of forces
you to confront mortality in a way that's, Uncomfortable, like you,
MEAN i don't have that much time, Left So i'm like.
Old is that what you're. Saying i'm not.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Old i'm like, no But i'm not.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Dying like you got to use.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
It you only have so many.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Years, yeah use it before you lose. It. YEAH i
was also thinking, about Like i've had to And i've
talked about this on the, show like get back in
touch with HOW i spend my money and like WHAT
i value and making sure that like How i'm spending
my money lines up with WHAT i SAY i value
(39:22):
and WHAT i actually, value because for, me that's HOW
i feel, Happier like with my, expenses like HOW i
can at least look at it and, say, well that
was you, know something it has to do with such
and such THAT i, value like for, example spending fifty
bucks on like a sound bath versus spending fifty bucks
(39:44):
ON i don't, know the eighteen pack of toothbrushes At
pj's and like seven rotisserie chickens or whatever cost fifty
dollars At pj's and being able to like tie that
to something THAT i, value like my mental, health like self,
care you, Know like can you talk a little bit about?
(40:06):
That and is that something that you've seen in your?
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Clients, yeah, WELL i think what happens with my clients
and is especially because of the, location, Right SO i
do believe that sometimes where you live can dictate what
you prioritize and what you. Value SO i am practicing
In New York. CITY i tend to see people who,
are LIKE i, said twenty five to forty. Five so
(40:31):
a lot of my clients are in the range of
just preparing for what it might look like to have a.
Family how do they prepare themselves to feel as stable
as they can to start expanding their. Family and when
you live in a city that really does prioritize going
out or spending a lot of money or looking a certain,
(40:52):
way it can feel hard to then, say, hey we
can't do as much as we were doing before because we're,
prioritizing you, KNOW ivf we're prioritizing saving for a, house
or we just want to make sure that we can
expand our family or take care of, family whatever it
looks like for. Them SO i think aligning your values
(41:13):
with how you want to spend your money is very
important for people to do and to spend some, time
whether it's, journaling thinking about, it making a, list to
understand so that when you are saying no to some,
things which can be very difficult to set the boundary
outside of yourself to say no to SAY i can't
Or i'm not going to go on that trip BECAUSE
(41:34):
i have something else going, on to ground yourself and
why you aren't doing the things that you used to
do because you're trying to get to your financial goal
of something. Else so a lot of that is fortifying
people to understand why their values are so important how
do they prioritize, them and then how do they set
healthy boundaries with other people so that they can continue
(41:54):
to prioritize them and feel good about.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
It, okay SO i know we don't have very much time,
left so why not talk about a huge topic That
i'll probably take in another, hour but, QUICKLY i the
REASON i want to. TALK i want to talk about,
shame financial. SHAME i actually got A dm from one
of my cousins who hadn't seen in a, while and
we were supposed to like see each other WHEN i
(42:18):
was back, home and you, know for whatever, reason we
didn't make it. Happen and SO i got this message
After i'd already, left and she was, saying, LIKE i
didn't know how to say, this But i'm actually having
a really hard. Time we're in between houses right, Now
we're really struggling, financially AND i didn't want you to
think of us as, trash you, know if if you
(42:38):
saw us and like it was really heartbreaking to me
BECAUSE i could just feel how much shame she had
for being in a challenging position and then you, know
needing a little bit of financial help in that. Moment
AND i at the same, TIME i was like proud
of her for saying, something because the antidote to shame
(42:59):
for me is like saying the thing out loud and
actually admitting that you're. Struggling but it did remind me
just of how much SHAME i think so many of
us are caring because we don't feel like we're doing
as well as we should be or as other people
think we should be or other people look like they're,
doing and that can cause a lot of. Suffering so
how does shame kind of play into all of this
(43:23):
and into your practice and working with your.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Clients shame comes up so frequently with my clients and
with money in. General, right it's not just like my
clients who are coming to me to have these types of.
Conversations it's, also AS i, know you know and can
see and can hear from other, people people are just
dealing with it. Silently AND i love what you said
about talking about it and bringing it up is the
(43:49):
antidote to, shame BECAUSE i completely. AGREE i think it
brings us out of this isolation and sadness and gloom
that we can create ourselves when we start to spiral
in our shame to Think i'm the only one who's
going through. This nobody else is going through. THIS i you,
know then the terrible things that you say to yourself
(44:11):
right start showing up to all of that, negativity and
it forces you inward versus forcing you outward where you
can feel loved and appreciated even though you are going
through a hard. Time so it comes up a lot
in my, practice AND i want to also share that
it comes up not just when people don't have, money
but when people. Do AND i think that is much
(44:34):
harder for us to grapple with because we want to,
believe especially In american, culture that if you have, money
everything is, great you have no. Problems but there's a
lot of people who have a lot of shame about
being wealthy. Too AND i would say just as much
shame as people who don't have the money when they
do have the. Money so it's just a very complex
(44:54):
thing that takes time to break up because it takes
time for people to be vulnerable enough to start bringing
it to light to Say i'm really struggling with the
financial MISTAKES i. Made i'm really struggling with What i'm
doing with my. MONEY i don't like, this And i'm
starting not to like myself because of, it AND i
think it can really quickly go down a slippery slope
(45:16):
when we start to almost attack your self, esteem when
you feel so isolated and so buried in your. Shame
and a lot of my work is reinforcing that people
are still worthy even if they don't feel great about their,
money don't feel great about money in, general have had,
debt are making a ton of, money are. Different it's
(45:39):
about figuring out how you can still love yourself and
how you can still take care of yourself even if
it's not the way that you want to be able
to right now to and also feel like you can
have a community that supports you even though this stuff
is going. On AND i want to be clear That
i'm not, saying, hey get up on your soapbox.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
And tell the world about your financial shame and tell the.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
World, no it doesn't have to be all of, that
but it could, Be, Hey i'm talking to my really
close family member about this AND i feel really bad about,
it OR i am calling that friend to just be
sad and to just, cry and Then i'm gonna go
about my.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Day so.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Pick you can, pick and choose who you share it.
With BUT i really encourage people to start talking about,
it because that's really what breaks up the isolation and
stops you from cocooning.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
In, yeah talk about, it and then hopefully you're speaking
to someone who could then encourage you on the step
toward yeah, something, yeah you, know to improve the situation
or just to like get through. It, well thank You
asia for joining me on Brown. Envision, finally this interview
is like a year in the making almost any last,
(46:50):
words where can people find? You?
Speaker 1 (46:52):
So you can find me On instagram AT Ajae, therapy
So i'm there on my, Website asiaevanscounseling dot, com and
you Can Feel Good finance wherever you get your. Books
but in, GENERAL i do want people to know that
you're not the only one going through. This that whether
it's shame or just feeling really bad about, yourself low self, esteem, depression,
(47:12):
anxiety other people are going through it, Too and people
that you do not expect to be going through it
are probably going through it too and want to have
these kinds of. Conversations so it might feel big and
scary at, first but it doesn't have.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
To always be that.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Way thank. You before we send folks to your. Website
are you taking new? Clients, yes SO i. HAVE i
THINK i have about three. SLOTS i have to double.
CHECK i was at three to. FIVE i just took
on two new, clients SO i THINK i have three slots. Left,
okay go get, in Ba. Fam keep her booked and.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Busy, yes, please.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
All, Right, asia thanks so much having me all, right Ba,
fam thank you so much for tuning into this week's.
EPISODE i want to hear from. You what did you?
Think did this? Episode did it get to you or
you feel a little less shame about your financial picture right?
Now are you gonna maybe call up a, friend your,
(48:05):
therapist a financial advisor and start chipping away at it
and releasing yourself from that. Shame i'd love to hear from.
You you can hit me Up bronambitionpodcast at gmail dot,
com or you CAN dm me At Brown Ambition podcast
AND i will be waiting for your. Message and, YES
i do, RESPOND i actually. Do WHILE i got, y'all Ba,
(48:27):
fam let me do a quick shout out to our
incredible listeners who took the time In may so far
to leave us a review On Apple. Podcasts oh my,
goodness thank you so. Much all, right we have one FROM.
Wgssf she says or he, no assume it's is?
Speaker 1 (48:44):
She?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yay? Moms Mandy, Love love love the episode about moms
With reina And. JESSICA i love how honest and thoughtful
your conversation was about the difficult balance that motherhood can.
Bring thank you for your candid takes on life and. Money,
Girl you're. Welcome if you all missed last Week's Mother's
day episode With Reina campbell From dreams And drive And
(49:06):
Jessica norwood From Sugar Daddy, podcast listen go check it.
Out whether you are a, mom you want to be a,
mom you like your, mom or you don't like your.
Mom maybe it'll help you understand her. Better go listen
to last week's episode and then listener our N optional
says so good five, stars been listening for. Years mandy's
(49:28):
handling solo hosting with great roundtables and continues to bring amazing.
GUESTS i also love how vulnerable she is in her motherhood.
Season keeping it real is how we support each. Other hell,
yes thank you so. Much and To Ae jackson says
Love Brown ambition five. Stars i've been listening To Brand
(49:49):
ambition since twenty twenty and it's helped me grow so.
Much every episode has something new for me to. Learn
mandy does such a great job of utilizing personal experiences
to make career finance topics feel real and, applicable AND
i love her guests at THE Ba Brown table. Too
can't wait to see how the show continues to. Evolve
thank y'all so. Much please leave us a. Review you
(50:12):
can leave it On Apple podcasts Or. Spotify those are
the two best places. Review however many stars you, wish of,
Course i'm always hoping for, five BUT i do read
each and everyone AND i just can't thank y'all. Enough all,
right until next, time BY Ba fam okay va, Fam
thank you so much for listening to this week's. SHOW
(50:34):
i want to shout out to our production, Team, courtney our, Editor,
carla our fearless leader for idea to launch. PRODUCTIONS i
want to shout out my Assistant Lauda escalante And cameron
McNair for helping me put the show. Together it is
not a one person, project as much AS i have
tried to make it so these past ten, YEARS i
(50:56):
need help, y'all and thank Goodness i've been able to
put this team around me to support me on this,
journey and to y'all ba, FAM i love you so
so so so. Much please, rate, review, Subscribe make sure
you sign up to the newsletter to get all the
latest updates on upcoming, episodes our tenth year anniversary celebrations to,
come and until next, time talk to you soon via.
(51:19):
Bye
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