December 10, 2024 • 53 mins
Coach Dudley Duncan, a legend with over five decades on the pool deck, joins us to unravel the art of swimming and the strategic nuances of racing. Promising a fresh perspective, Coach Duncan underscores the importance of keeping the sport playful, even as athletes become more goal-oriented. His new book, "The Art of Swimming and the Game of Racing," offers strategic insights for swimmers and coaches aiming to elevate their skills and perhaps manage their own swimming clubs. Whether you're an aspiring swimmer or a seasoned coach, this episode guarantees lessons that will inspire a playful yet strategic approach to racing.
We also explore the world of master swimmers, where the motivations and challenges differ vastly from those of younger athletes. Coach Duncan shines a light on the empowering environments of master meets, where camaraderie and personal strategies help adult swimmers rediscover joy in competition. He reminds hesitant swimmers of the supportive nature of these gatherings, encouraging them to embrace racing without the pressures of youth, focusing on personal strategy and enjoyment.
As we navigate the themes of process, preparation, and mindset, Coach Duncan shares anecdotes of coaching athletes to Olympic levels, illustrating the power of mental rehearsal and focus. From Olympians Whitney Hedgepeth's and Rada Owen's journey to Dudley’s own experiences in pool ownership, this episode is rich with insights on maintaining excellence in the sport. Whether discussing the entrepreneurial side of pool management or the benefits of outdoor swimming, Coach Duncan’s philosophy centers on staying present and encouraging excellence, offering a comprehensive guide for both athletes and coaches alike. Dive in and listen to be inspired!
Email us at HELLO@ChampionsMojo.com. Opinions discussed are not medical advice, please seek a medical professional for your own health concerns.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There is a game within every race.
It's a lot how you use yourtechniques as well.
Racing isn't just swimming.
It's what you're doing in andout of turns, on finishes and
starts.
Of course it is a game.
The more you can keep it inthat realm of consciousness, I
think, the more you enjoy thesport.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to the award-winning Champions Mojo
hosted by two world recordholding athletes.
Be inspired as you listen toconversations with champions and
now your hosts, kelly Pallasand Maria Parker.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hello friends, welcome to the Champions Mojo
podcast and, as usual, I amco-hosting with Maria Parker.
Hey, maria.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hey, kelly, it's great to see you today.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Great to see you and also it's great to see our guest
, coach Dudley Duncan, reallyexcited for today's show.
Dudley is a fellow Virginian,like the two of us.
He has a storied coachingcareer in Virginia, with over 50
years on the pool deck, but notjust as a swim coach.
(01:09):
Coach Duncan is an innovativebusinessman and the author of a
new book.
Coach Duncan began his coachingcareer in 1968 in Newport News,
virginia.
Just one tiny part of hiscoaching history is that he put
two different swimmers on the USOlympic team.
He also had numerous championsin the USA and NCAA swimming and
(01:33):
, maria, you've got a littlespecial little couple notes that
our master swimmers are goingto be interested in about Coach
Duncan.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Sure, coach Duncan's new book is the Art of Swimming
and the Game of RacingReflections of a USA Club
Swimming Coach which shares hiscoaching history.
It breaks down the philosophyat the core of quest swimming,
reflects on the coachingpractices Duncan found most
effective and provides advice tocoaches interested in owning
(02:00):
their own club and pool.
But this episode's not just forswim coaches.
Coach Duncan coached masterswimmers for over 20 years, so
we're going to dive into somespecial topics to take your own
swimming to the next level.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yes, Coach Duncan.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
We're really excited to have you here.
So we want to dive in with thetopic that it might even be a
little taboo among masterswimmers, but it's in the title
of your book the Game of Racing.
We all can kind of understandthe art of swimming, but the
game of racing.
So let's preface this by sayingthat a lot of master swimmers,
(02:37):
the majority of master swimmers,don't race, and by racing we're
going to say going to some kindof a meet and standing up and
racing someone else.
Tell us why racing is important.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Now it came to mind originally was I was thinking,
you know, about 10 and under.
Swimmers are typically just sojoyful when they start competing
for the first time and all theywant to do is get to the end of
the pool.
And there's not really too muchtechnicality about it, they
just have tons of fun doing it.
They're always smiling andrunning around and playing,
(03:16):
having a great time.
And then as you get fartherinto the sport, then it becomes
a little more serious andgoal-oriented and those types of
things.
So oftentimes I think the gameof racing itself is lost in all
of those goals and the thingsyou're trying to achieve.
(03:37):
So it was just a way that Iwanted people to think about
swimming.
Still, there is a game withinevery race.
You know, some swimmers like tobuild a race toward the finish
and get stronger as they go.
Others like to take it out fast, try to hold on.
(03:57):
Some just race the competitiondepending on.
You know how they're set up inthe lanes and they race with the
field itself, and those areelements of racing that I think
give a lot of opportunity to dodifferent things and to enjoy
the game of racing.
You know, it's a lot how youuse your techniques as well.
(04:20):
So racing isn't just swimming,it's what you're doing in and
out of turns, you know, onfinishes and starts.
Of course it is a game and ifyou, the more you can keep it in
that realm of consciousness, Ithink, the more you enjoy the
sport.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Did you encourage your master swimmers to?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
race and I would say that it was all to get others
successful.
We did have people that weregoing to national championships
and going, you know, outside thestate to race, but it was
probably about half of thepeople that were actually
training at the pool or swimmingat the pool.
(04:58):
Different adults do things fordifferent reasons.
Adults do things for differentreasons.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
What stories do race?
Or do master swimmers tellthemselves that keep them from
going to events and actuallyracing?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I think the main thing that I heard from master
swimmers was that they weretired or they had some
experience that wasn't good forthem when they were younger as
you know, kids growing up andthey didn't want to get back
into that sort of pressureenvironment, you know, of
(05:31):
putting a judgment on theirperformance in any way.
So they like to stay calm andjust enjoy the act of swimming
rather than the racing itself.
And you know I had others,though that were highly enthused
to race, so just depended moreon the individual.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I love the concept of making it a game because you
know they say as adults, we needto play more, and I really love
you know, fellow swim coach toswim coach here that you do have
a game plan.
I mean the word game is in gameplan and that if you don't have
(06:10):
a game plan, when that gun goesoff you are completely lost.
You're at the whim of you know,maybe the guy next to you
swimming or whoever you'reracing, or you may go all out
and die, which is definitely notfun.
And I think that's a key insuccessful master swimmers that
I know and that I've both workedwith, and the success that I've
(06:32):
had in my own career is thatyou do have to have this.
Like somebody take a 200 free,which is so you know it's such a
great distance because it's nota sprint and it's not really a
distance event.
But, believe it or not, I havea plan where I swim the 200 free
, where I do a six-beat kick onthe first 25, then I drag my
(06:53):
legs on a 50, then on the next100, I do a different type of
kick and then on the last 50, Ibuild it to an all-out six-beat
kick.
I'm always thinking about thatgame plan when I swim a 200 free
and if I didn't I would just becompletely lost and it wouldn't
be any fun and it's almost likeif I can challenge myself to do
that, it's a game and I don'treally care where I end up if I
(07:16):
go to my game plan.
Can you tell us a story of anyof the many, many swimmers that
you have coached that have kindof stuck to a game plan that
might've looked different butthat ended up either successful
or not?
Just a good story around peopleusing a game plan for a race?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Well, you may remember Jeff Hutch.
He swam at Briarwood.
He was a pretty good swimmer,went to the University of
Arizona and still swims.
Also was involved with the NavySEALs and teaching them adapted
side stroke.
That enabled them to gain morespeed, but with efficiency, so
they didn't tire.
(07:58):
But he loved to race.
That was just what gave him joy,and he would typically he's
very good, by the way, but hewould typically put himself
somewhere between the knees andhips of the leader and he would
kind of just watch them and movealong at their speed until he
(08:20):
felt like it was his turn tomove ahead and then to try to
gain the win in the race.
That way.
I remember when he was probablya junior or senior in high
school, he was swimming for ourteam and there was a boy that he
had swum with on another teamtoo, who typically took races
out fast, and so there was alittle disagreement over whether
(08:44):
Jeff should continue to do whathe normally did and found joy
with, or whether he should getahead of this boy and stay ahead
of him all the time.
What ended up happening in thatparticular meet is that he went
ahead and tried to stay aheadand he failed in the race plan
because it wasn't to his comfort.
(09:04):
It wasn't the way he liked torace, so I think it was the last
time that he did that.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I love this discussion of game and game plan
and I just finished a bicyclerace and I think one of the
advantages of racing is puttingyourself in a different, a
different place with differentpeople.
And I think for most masterswimmer if I, if I don't do well
, it's not going to bring medown, you know.
(09:31):
I mean not too much, maybe for10 minutes, but mostly it's just
it's such a great experience tojust be in a different, you
know, a different venue andagainst different competitors
and, um, you know, in adifferent pool, I suppose, with
the bike and a different youknow, and it's exciting, you
know, and you finish that andit's you've seen a different
(09:52):
side of yourself.
But yeah, it's a game, it's fun, that's the whole point.
It's supposed to be fun, it'snot.
It's interesting to think ofeven adult master swimmers being
plagued by the pressure thatmaybe they put on themselves or
parents or coaches put on themas a child.
You know, we're adults, wedon't care, nobody cares, not
getting any money for it.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I think that's always been.
If I could talk somebody intothat was apprehensive, and talk
them into going to a master'smeet, then a lot of that would
fade away.
You know, a lot of thatapprehension would fade away,
because really, a master's meet,then a lot of that would fade
away.
You know, a lot of thatapprehension would fade away
because really, at master'smeets, while they're serious at
the time of the race and theywant to do the best that they
(10:34):
can, the atmosphere is so muchdifferent.
You know, it's so fun andloving and people are just
enjoying each other's companyand all and they make great
friendships that last a lifetimesometimes.
So yeah, there are advantagesif you can just get them past
that place.
A lot of them too, I think,will come out after it's been
(10:56):
years and years since they swamcompetitively as kids and they
are uncomfortable in bridgingthat gap of time and they don't
feel confident because of theamount of time that's passed.
So you have to get them to alevel of fitness where you can
talk to them about it and then,if you can get them to a meet,
(11:19):
pretty much got them hooked.
You know they like it.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yes, so you started coaching in 1968.
You retired from coaching in2019.
That is a 51 year, as wereferenced in your intro, a 51
year span of coaching, andobviously you must have worked
with lots of people's mindsetsand how they, you know, dealt
(11:46):
with both failure, success.
What do you think some keys toyour champions that you saw
people succeeding?
What were those traits that yousaw in your best performers?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
performers.
The prime instance thatreoccurred so often and every
swimmer has a tendency to leanthis way or not is if you put
the goal ahead of the process,then you typically will see
anxiety or some nervousness orsometimes even fear develop,
because they're not onlyelevated to try to accomplish
(12:31):
the result that they wanted toaccomplish, but they also kind
of fear it at the same time,whereas if you can get them to
focus on the process itself,just do a good start, swim the
race the way that we'vepracticed it all year in
anticipation of this, and finishwell, and it kind of goes away
(12:54):
and it takes away some of thatnervousness and anxiety and that
.
So the problem with thinkingabout the goal first is that
there's typically a judgment puton that.
So if they achieve it, they'reusually very happy and they have
some type of judgmentassociated with the happiness.
(13:16):
But also if they don't achieveit and they'll ask themselves
questions like is this worth it,or should I be doing this?
Should I do something else?
You know they'll put thatjudgment on and they'll wonder
what everybody else is thinkingabout them.
It's like they feel likeeverybody's watching their
performance, you know.
(13:36):
So yeah, I think it's animportant thing for a coach to
try to channel that energytoward things that they're
accustomed to and a belief inthemselves to do those things,
and the result will come as aresult of that, rather than to
try to put the result ahead ofthe process.
A lot of times they'll get sonervous thinking about trying to
(13:59):
achieve the objective thatthey'll almost forget how to
swim, or forget a race plan thatthey've practiced all year long
.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah, I remember my first running race Kelly got me
into and I was so nervous Icouldn't feel my arms or my legs
.
But I love this again, thisconcept of separating out the
process from the goal.
And one way to think of that, Ithink, is you're the hero in
your own adventure story andevery race or every event that
(14:29):
you do is kind of a new littleadventure.
You know, sometimes the badguys are going to you know be
bigger than you expected, andsometimes you know you're going
to, you're going to come out ontop and I love that.
You know just taking thejudgment out, this is your own
story.
Every event you do is your ownstory.
It's your own adventure and youknow at the end of it you're
(14:50):
going to learn and you know,take your next adventure from
what?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
you learned.
I do have a story.
This is a story about Rada Owen, who was on the 2000 Olympic
team in Australia.
Who was on the 2000 Olympicteam in Australia and she got
second in the 200 free to makethe team and I wasn't there.
She was swimming for Auburn atthe time, but I had coached her
all the way from eight years oldto 18.
(15:15):
So she called me after the racewas over and I asked her how
she was feeling and she goesgosh, that's the weirdest thing
she goes.
I really had that race in mymind.
I had visualized it and thoughtabout it every single day.
I knew exactly what I wanted todo in prelims and semifinals
and finals and it happened justlike I wanted it to.
(15:37):
And if I made the team, thatwas great, if I swam the way I
wanted to, but if I didn't, thatwould be okay too.
But I made it.
So I was really happy, ofcourse, but she said I was
really happier for some of myteammates that made it than I
was for myself.
So then she gets to the processof going from Olympic trials to
(15:59):
the Olympics.
And she didn't swim well at theOlympics she went not a good
swim at all, really.
So she called me again fromAustralia and she said well, you
know what I was telling youabout Olympic trials and I knew
what I was going to do andeverything she goes.
When I got to Australia, Inever thought about that race,
(16:22):
not even one minute, from thetime that I made the team, all
the way until it was time for meto swim semifinals.
Actually, he said prelims wereeasy, no problem, but semifinals
they announced us out, you know, or taking off our uniforms or
announcing us.
And I realized while I wastaking off my uniform that I had
(16:43):
not thought about that raceeven for a minute.
And she said I felt thisenormous fatigue come over me
like a wave.
And she said I was more tiredwhen I stepped onto the block at
the Olympics than I was duringall of Olympic trials and
everything I had to do there.
She said, and it's, I swam likethat too, of 75 meters and she
(17:03):
died because I just didn't thinkabout it.
So, yeah, that's how it goesreally.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
The lesson there is to think about it, to prepare in
advance, to rehearse mentally.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah Well, ideally, you're setting your goal, you
set up an action plan whereyou're going to practice every
day the way you want to swim, todo that goal.
You're going to practice everyday the way you want to swim, to
do that goal.
And then it comes, you know,from your mind and from your
subconscious when you're thereat the race, which is what
happened for Rita at Olympictrials.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
But it didn't happen at the Olympics because she
didn't go through that.
Well, I would think a lot ofour Olympic teams, when they go
over there, from whatevercountry, you've got to be so
focused on getting gold orgetting silver you know, getting
on the podium that you know youmay not think of the process.
So, other than Rada, you alsocoach Whitney Hedgepeth to the
Olympics.
What were some things that youfelt that Rada and Whitney
(18:02):
exhibited that made them special?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
She's very different.
Whitney was.
She was born to race.
I mean, she had race all insideof her from the very first time
that I saw her, at eight yearsold.
It was a YMCA meet, the firstone that I had been to with her,
you know and she gave the heata head start because she thought
she could win.
And then which she did win, youknow and I told her when she
(18:28):
come back I said whitney, yougave my head start.
Why'd you start so slow?
She said I thought I could win,so I just thought I would give
him a chance.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I go, whitney, that's not a good thing to do, you
know, that's hilarious yeah,that trade is called cocky,
which is pretty well yeah,exactly how about how about Rada
?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And Rada was a super technician.
Some people said that she wasone of the most efficient
freestylers that they'd everseen and her mental game was
exactly as I described it shewas very good, loved to go
through visualization sessionsand use what she had visualized
in the pool.
She had a picture in her mindall the time.
(19:11):
So that was different forWhitney.
She could hardly ever payattention to a whole
visualization session, you know,but she would really go for it
in the race.
I did have an experience withWhitney that I thought was
significant, that I thought itproved to be significant.
So we were training hard in themax VO2 phase of the training
(19:39):
and she was tired, as were manyothers, and I was trying to
encourage her, although shedidn't take it that way, and she
looked at me through hergoggles I could see the hatred
in her eyes, you know and shesaid I'd better make this
Olympic tee.
And we were toward the end ofpractice.
So I called it there, you know.
I said let's call it a day,whitney, you stay for a minute,
(20:02):
the rest of y'all go out.
So I sat with her and I toldher you cannot think like that
at Olympic trials.
You'll put too much pressure onyourself, you won't be able to
make it.
You know Well, at Olympictrials she was swimming five
events, monday through Friday100 free on the first day.
We were hoping she could make arelay.
She didn't, she was 10.
(20:24):
She didn't really care thatmuch about that.
You know, it was kind of anevent she didn't do normally,
but she had had a good race init during the summer.
Then the second day, though,was the 200 freestyle, and
that's the one we really thoughtshe had a good shot in, and she
was third.
So she didn't make the team,because there was no 800 free
relay in 1988 for the women.
(20:46):
Man, I was pretty apprehensiveabout going to that warm down
pool after that, but I went overthere and she goes well, I'll
miss, so I go, oh good.
So she was third in that event.
The next day was 400 free,which she did not want to swim.
She swam it for me because Iwanted her to swim it, and she
(21:08):
was really good at everydistance.
But she did not like 400 free.
She didn't make finals and shewas happy.
Then, thursday, she was 100 fly.
She was fifth in the 100 fly,and the last day was 200 IM.
So she places ninth.
But Angel Martino scraps the200 IM because she wanted to do
(21:32):
something special in the 53.
So Whitney got into lane eightand she placed second and made
the team in 200 IM Totally notexpected.
You know she had a reallywonderful breaststroke split for
her.
She dropped about three secondsoff her breaststroke split.
All by itself All the trainingthat we had done for the IM
(21:54):
really worked for her.
But yeah, that's an importantlesson, I think.
You know she didn't make the200 free.
She could have got down on it,you know, but she kept her
spirits up and took everythingin perspective.
And then she ends up making theteam on the 200 IM.
And you know she did not makethe team in 1992.
(22:15):
She was very close but missedmaking the team in 1992 and
stopped for a couple of yearsand came back and then made the
team and medaled in backstrokein 96.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
What a great story.
So you know, it's prettyamazing that you put, as a
longtime swim coach myself, youknow it's always a coach's dream
to want to put somebody on theOlympic team, and not many
coaches do even one swimmer onthe Olympic team.
But you had two on the Olympicteam, but you had two.
(22:55):
So let's talk about DudleyDuncan and your goals and your
mindset.
Like how do you, you know, didyou set these goals?
Did they just happen?
What is it about you thatyou're continually achieving
these incredible things, likeyour 50-year coaching career,
your Olympians now yourincredible, unique model for
swim coaches to purchase theirown pools.
(23:17):
Now you've got a book.
What drives Dudley Duncan andwhat's your mindset to get all
these achievements?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
That's a pretty good question.
Actually, I never thought aboutwhere I was supposed to be as a
coach.
I was really focused in, Ithink, on the moment and things
that I did and things that wereaccomplished during my career I
think happened sort of naturallybecause of the advancements
(23:44):
that the people that I wascoaching were making as a result
of the process that we did.
Like I didn't ever apply to bea national team coach or
anything.
I thought I was better suited Iactually got this from John
Flanagan.
I thought I was better suitedto be at home with the majority
of kids that I was paid to coachthan to go off in other places
(24:08):
and coach.
So I just stay in the movement.
But I do require, I think, ofpeople that they try to be the
best that they can be.
I really appreciate excellenceas a concept and try to bear it
out of myself as well as them.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
You know Iceman for John Flanagan?
I think you knew that JohnFlanagan never put anybody on
the Olympic team.
Did you know that?
Yeah, he got really close withMichelle swim coach ever and
(24:52):
certainly one of the finesthumans, but he would just to put
one person on the Olympic teamwould have been great for John.
So for you to do it, you know,to do it twice is incredible and
really Dudley.
You know, writing a book afteryour whole career is something
that's quite an achievement, anda book does not happen in the
moment, so tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, that's right.
I guess the first inclination Ihad to do it was that I really
had people telling me I shitover the years and I never
really thought about itseriously because I was usually
working too hard.
But when I retired, I don'tknow, it was in the back of my
mind some.
So I started putting somebullet points in place, you know
(25:36):
on the computer and justthoughts, and then I started to
elaborate on those thoughts alittle bit and expand on them
and next thing I knew it lookedlike chapters were developing.
I go, OK, then I'm going to tryto do this.
And so I did.
I kind of started to put anorder together for the chapters
(26:00):
and I wanted to present the book.
And it was a lot of myexperience, you know, from a
young coach to a mature coach.
So that's a kind of a naturalprogression.
But then I also wanted peopleto understand the elements of
club coaching that differ from,say, college coaching or YMCA
(26:23):
coaching or coaching that'sprimarily seasonal coaching, or
coaching that's primarilyseasonal because as a club coach
you're taking a child, you knowwhen they're seven or eight
years old, and you're coachingthem for a decade of time at
least and it's year round andthe meets are typically a
minimum of two and a half daysand 18 swims, you know, or so?
(26:45):
Yeah, it's a whole differentparadigm for coaching that I
think needed attention becauseit's not really out there.
People talk about coaching butthey don't really talk about
club coaching.
It's not like very much in, forexample, at coaching clinics.
You're not hearing it that way.
(27:05):
The other thing I wanted to dowas to share my feelings on that
, my thoughts, and then the lastthing was the business, because
every coach that you all knowon this has made this statement
If I had my own pool, I think Icould do this a bit better,
because you're always answeringto board members and not that
they're bad, I mean, that's agood thing to do.
(27:27):
Board members are great butyou're always having the back of
your mind.
If I had the ownership, I coulddo this, you know.
So I resigned from Poseid, so Iwanted to share with younger
coaches how I did that, becausemost of the time you think I
(27:56):
can't do that because it's tooexpensive.
I don't have, I'm not abusiness person or whatever, but
for me, I bought that pool byassuming a mortgage of $225,000.
It was a homeowner's association.
It wasn't a good pool, you know.
It was a really bad poolactually, but it didn't cost me
(28:17):
much.
I didn't have to put any moneydown, I just had to make the
monthly payment.
I refinanced it a few times totry to, you know, create some
cash.
But then in 2017, I had itappraised and it was appraised
at that time under that zoningfor $468,000.
(28:38):
And I wanted to build ateaching pool, which was going
to cost $1.7 million on theproperty.
So, you know, I looked intorezoning and decided I could
rezone it.
Maybe it would be worth more.
So I rezoned it and it wasappraised at $2.62 million.
(29:00):
So I was able to build the poolyou know, the teaching pool and
now it's pressing on a $3million revenue.
So I think it's kind of a storythat makes it seem like it
could be reasonable.
$225,000 was the price of atypical home in Midlothian at
(29:21):
that time for a three-bedroomrancher.
Right, I bought a three-bedroomrancher when I was 30, and it
cost me $49,950.
I could have done the samething when I was 30 that I did
when I was 56.
So that's what I wanted toshare about the business.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, that's a great story.
That's the deer run pool, right.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Help me understand how it's great for a coach to
own their own pool.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
It depends on who you are.
I admit that you know.
So you're able to make your owndecisions.
It doesn't take you any time todo it.
You don't have to go and sellthe idea to 13 board members,
you know, and have them agree onit and then go through
everything you have to gothrough.
You can't get anything done sooften, you know it just takes
(30:15):
time and then you don't havepeople that agree with you all
the time.
So you kind of work through allthat.
But when you have it, when it'syours, you make the decision
and it's done.
It's meant not be a gooddecision and you pay for that.
You know you have personalaccountability for that.
But most of the time, I thinkfor me I felt like they were and
(30:38):
you also have to be willing todo the work, because you're no
longer, you know, depending onother people to do the
accounting or doing the legalwork or you know all those
things.
You have to clean the toiletsand do that kind of work at the
end of the day and, you know,mow the grass and do all those
kinds of things, and then youhave to coach the team and enjoy
(31:01):
.
So there's a lot of work to itand I didn't sleep much for
those first few years, buteventually it worked out.
So if you want to do the workand you're an independent type
person that wants to controlyour own destiny, then I think
it's a good paradigm.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
You're never going to , you know, run into someone
else booking pool time when youwant it so you can have your
practices, you know, wheneveryou want.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
We didn't stop swimming during COVID.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, and so those are.
So you own those types ofthings.
Well, yeah, that's great, andso that's just like being your
own owner, operator,entrepreneur.
And did you say you expanded toanother pool, or was that the
only one you did?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Cool that one's owned by the pool management company
that I started.
We have total flexibility touse that pool as we need to.
There's nobody else in it,really, it's just us.
It's the only reason it's openis us.
So we have that.
It's a 25-yard by 25-meterZ-shaped pool, and then we have
(32:09):
the pool that we built on theDeer Run campus, which is the
teaching pool.
It's a pretty good situationaltogether.
Our intent now is to try tomake this the Evergreen pool.
What we call the Evergreen poolis the 25-yard by 25-meter pool
, as good as Deer Run is,because it's not as good.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I swam at Evergreen this morning with their master's
group, oh gosh.
So I know exactly what you'retalking about.
Yeah, it's a beautiful venueand a great location and yeah,
definitely would be nice to beas nice as the deer run facility
.
But yeah, I can totally see thepotential in that.
But I joked with the master'sgroup there, you know, Stan was
(32:51):
the coach and swam with theusual's group there, you know,
Stan was the coach and swam withthe usual group, that's.
You know.
I've been swimming at Deer Runwhen I'm in Richmond visiting,
you know, my family and helpingmy 94-year-old dad.
So we've been here quite a bitover the last several years and
so I've been swimming withdifferent master's groups
because I love I just love allmy master's friends and I have
(33:11):
different friends on differentteams.
So I've been swimming at Questand then they moved us over to
Evergreen where we've beenswimming at the Deer Run Pool,
and they moved us over toEvergreen.
So I would love to see thatEvergreen pool get as up to par
as the Deer Run Pool.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Well, I've told Chad and John that well, I actually
still own the business.
By the way, I'm not there tooperate it, but I'm still on the
loan for the teaching pool.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Are you part of Quest Swimming still, even though
you're retired?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah Well, I own it.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So I'm the majority owner in Quest Swimming.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Okay, and then Quest owns Evergreen through your pool
company Swim Metro.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well, swim Metro owns it, so that's a separate
company, separate owner.
My son actually has ownershipin Swim Metro.
The majority owner is a guynamed Kurt Schuster, who we
started the company together.
So they own that pool but theypretty much don't pay any
attention to it.
(34:14):
So, john and Chad, we're alwayswanting to get approval from
Kurt and Ryan to makeimprovements, because they don't
want to make improvements andthen have a loss for it.
And I've told them make theimprovements for yourselves,
because when you make theimprovements you're going to
improve people's desire to comethere and your cash flow will
(34:37):
get better from that, you know.
So it doesn't really matter ifthey don't want to pay attention
to it, that's their decision.
Just document it, tell themwhat you're doing and make the
improvements which they've done.
They put in new bathroomfacilities, the urinals and
toilets, and that they put newones in this year without having
(34:57):
Kurt's approval.
In my suggestion.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I love the entrepreneurial spirit.
Yeah, you're definitely thehero of your own story.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yeah, that's a great, great story.
Yeah, I did want to talk withyou about something that I think
you do incredibly well and Ithink those out there listening
that hey think, oh well, I knowthis person that should buy a
pool.
That is completely breaking themold in my mind and that is the
pools that we've been talkingabout.
(35:28):
And, maria, this is probablygoing to surprise you it was 32
degrees this morning here inRichmond Virginia when we woke
up and we swam outdoors.
So the two pools I don't knowif Deer Run originally was an
outdoor pool when you bought it,but I know that Evergreen is
just might be your local summerleague swim pool that just
(35:54):
doesn't want to be maintained bythe neighborhood country club
or the neighborhood HOAHomeowners Association.
So I love that Quest has hadtheir kids and their masters
swimming outdoors throughout aRichmond winter.
I'm not sure how far north thatmodel could go, but, dudley,
(36:15):
talk with us about how you cameup with.
Hey, let's put heaters in thesepools, because that's probably
your most expensive expense andwe're going to swim outdoors all
year round because I love it,love it, love it, love it as a
swimmer.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
The first time I had the idea was when I was in high
school, actually, and I waslooking at a National Geographic
and geography class and therewas a picture in there of a
Russian practice.
And it was outdoors and thecoach was dressed up all in you
know Russian type head thing andhe looked like the Michelin man
(36:52):
or something.
It's a furry hat.
You could see there was steamcoming up from the water and all
you could see was barely asilhouette of an arm and some
other arms as well, and Ithought, golly day, that really
that's a good thing, man,they're swimming in fresh air.
You know a lot of people haveproblems with chloramines and
indoor pools and that I likethat idea.
(37:14):
So later, when, you know, Istarted thinking about building
pools or getting a pool orbuying a pool or something.
I thought we can swim outdoors.
You know they did it in Russia.
We can do it, you know.
So, yeah, we're on the way backto high school, but we have
heated water and the coldesttemperature we've swum in
outdoors was seven degrees.
(37:34):
So you could get pretty farnorth with that idea.
I think you just have to havethe heater and it helps if it's
dependable.
So I bought new heaters.
I bought several heaters in mytime.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
And cool covers, right Cool covers.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, yeah's a.
It's a great thing, I think.
Uh, it's not natural for peopleto think that that's a good
idea.
You have to sell them on it alittle bit how do you sell them
on it?
well, that's what we've alwaystalked about the fresh air, that
we think it's really preferableto swim outdoors than it is
indoors because of thechloramines that happen in there
(38:14):
and a lot of times the air getshot, you know, it's steamy and
stuff.
It's not really a greatenvironment indoors anyway, but
it's a great environmentoutdoors.
It's just getting to the waterand getting out and the coaches
are uncomfortable.
I will say that I've been verycold, and so have John and Chad,
(38:35):
but they're a lot bigger than Iam.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
They could plug in a little space heater or something
.
Yeah, and I'll tell you anotherthing it's not good for us to
be in temperatures all the timethat are like 78 to 82.
Like we're always in that range, always with our body, and that
when we're exposed to cold,cold and this is non-shivering
cold, so you're not put intothat total shivering all the
(38:58):
time.
But you know, mark and I, afterpractice we were wet and we
stood on the deck and talked inour bathing suits and everybody
was looking at us like we'recrazy and we like, oh, we're
trying to burn our brown fat andwe're really trying to embrace.
There's something now calledmaria, you'll love this called
discomfort science.
I love it it's a whole new thingabout how we're all just way
(39:19):
too comfortable as humans.
So maybe we can add that intoit, dudley, and we can, you know
, we can start this drive whereall USA, all club teams, should
be buying their summer leaguepools and training outside all
year round yeah, you know, kelly, I believe that in the other
side too, with respect to heat,because when I was growing up
(39:40):
there was no air conditioning.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Maybe in your house you had a room, you know, a
window unit, so one room wouldbe, but there were no new air
conditioning in schools.
We went to school and all theschools had windows and, you
know, occasionally a teacherwould bring a fan in or
something and we went, you know,we did football practice and
stuff in the summers, doublesessions and all it was a lot,
(40:06):
man, it was like totallyuncomfortable, you know, during
the day.
But yeah, I think it's the samething on the other side Now.
Now we've air conditionedourselves, you know, to be
comfortable at thosetemperatures and we've heated
ourselves to be comfortable fromboth ends.
We're not uncomfortable enoughin our lives.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
That's exactly.
Yeah, that's exactly what theauthor said.
That it swings the same way.
Yeah, that's exactly what theauthor said that it swings the
same way, that we need to be hotand we need to be cold and
we're just too comfortable, andthat, when we are exposed to
these extremes, that we get abenefit, that we get a real
physiological benefit and thentherefore a psychological
benefit, because we're you know,we've endured this tough thing,
(40:52):
because we're you know we'veendured this tough thing.
Well, dudley, is there anythingthat we have not asked you that
you would like to share with us?
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I think with the Masters.
So I started the Mastersprogram up at Gear Run and I
coached it pretty much until Istopped coaching.
There's so much competition forMasters there.
Swim RVA is an awesome facilitythat a lot choose to go to, and
Briarwood still has somemasters over there.
(41:20):
There's a lot of people thatswim in the summer at their
summer pools blah, blah, blah.
You know.
So from a business standpointit's a difficult thing to do,
but from my perspective I reallywanted to do it because I
really think that it's a goodlifetime sport.
(41:41):
People keep doing it.
They stay healthier, I think,if they like to swim.
So it didn't really matter tome whether it made money or not.
You know, I just thought it wasa good thing to have going, and
I think it's still that way atQuest.
But the people are just a tonof fun.
They're just a blast, you know,and they really they try hard
(42:03):
and they do things that are goodand you have some that are
really focused.
You know they want to work hard, want to get BART rates up, and
that you have others that justwant to be technical.
They want to work hard, want toget BART rates up, and that you
have others that just want tobe technical and as a coach
that's kind of fun to do toobecause you can really help a
lot of those swimmerstechnically, you know, because
they're a lot of them come ininefficient, so you know they
(42:25):
haven't swum for a long time.
You know instinct is I alwayssay it's counterintuitive to
swim well to a human being.
So most people if they usetheir instincts they're going to
swim wrong.
Our instinct is really take adrowning person, you know they
want to lift their head, theywant to press down on the water,
they want to kick vigorously totry to stay at air.
(42:46):
That's a human instinct.
It's all wrong.
You know you're much better ifyou understand to press your
head, one, you know, eitherforward or back, press your body
weight into your chest so youcan leverage your hips up.
So not kick too hard, you know,so that you don't get tired.
Then you'll probably be okay.
But it's counterintuitive andwe do the same thing even in
(43:10):
competitive training.
If you're not reinforced on aregular basis I would say daily
in fact to do the right thing,you will instinctively start
doing the wrong thing.
That's why coaching is a goodjob, because you always have it.
You know they'll never get itexactly.
So yeah, I think, to be able togive a master swimmer that
(43:34):
ability to swim with ease andeffortless movement and to feel
themselves glide through thewater, a lot of them find great
enjoyment in that.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Well, wonderful.
So the very last thing we do isthe sprinter Round, where we
just ask you a few fun.
These are one-word answers sothat our listeners will get to
know you a little bit better.
Are you ready to play theSprinter Round?
Coach Duncan, take your mark.
What is your favorite sandwich?
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Boat, ham and mustard .
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Okay, what do you own that you should throw out?
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Shoes that I don't wear.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
What is the scariest animal to you?
Snake.
What celebrity would you liketo meet?
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Red Pit.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
What is the hardest swimming event in the pool?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
400 IM.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
All right, how about your favorite movie?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Braveheart.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
I like it, favorite smell.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
I don't have a sense of smell, but as I recollect a
gardenia.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
That's mine.
I think that's the only otherperson that said gardenia.
That's fine too Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
It's a very significant smell.
Okay, do you make your bedevery morning?
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
Kickboard or no kickboard, no kickboard.
If you had to listen to onesong for the rest of your life,
what would it be?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Ave Maria.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
That's beautiful Window or aisle.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Aisle.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Describe your life in five words.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I like to win races.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
What word comes to mind when you dive in the water?
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Dug, I'm not a swimmer.
I mean I swim, but it's not thesport that I choose for my
personal exercise.
So usually when I dive in, Idon't like it.
What is your sport?
Wrestling was my favorite sportin high school.
Now it's biking, actually.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
On the road or on a stationary.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
An A1A.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
The A1A.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
Wow, basically a couple hours a day.
Where do you live?
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Vero Beach, Florida.
Oh wow, Basically a couple ofhours a day.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
Where do you live?
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Vero Beach, Florida.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
So yeah, you're just south of us.
Yeah, be careful out there, allright?
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh, I do too.
It's great talking to you,great seeing you again.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Great Thanks, all right Take, it was great talking
to you.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Great seeing you again.
Great Thanks.
All right, take care.
Bye, maria, bye-bye.
Stay tuned for the takeaways.
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(46:34):
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And now the takeaways.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Okay, Maria, the takeaways.
What a great interview.
I know we went a little long,but it was just so interesting.
I could have talked to CoachDudley Duncan for much longer,
but he's just got so muchexperience and he's such a
besides being an amazing coach,he's a really great businessman,
and you and I are businesswomenand we run our own companies
(47:09):
and we wanted to even talk tohim after he got off the call
with us.
But what was your firsttakeaway on Coach Duncan?
Speaker 4 (47:18):
I think what hit me the hardest is his description
of our natural.
The way we naturally swim isreally not efficient because
we're trying to keep ourselvesfrom drowning and that technique
is everything you know and thatthat's what a coach does.
A coach helps you with yourtechnique and it's
counterintuitive and you needcoaching every day.
(47:39):
You need to work on techniqueevery day and you know of course
I knew that, but he just put itso clearly that swimming is not
natural, but with propercoaching we can create an
incredibly efficient andbeautiful style of swimming that
will feel good and get usthrough the water faster.
I just I'm a beginner swimmerand so well, I don't know if you
(48:04):
call me a beginner swimmer, butI but I struggle.
I don't have the background ofswimming from when I was six
years old and as a 61 year old,like, technique is hard.
So it was a great reminder thatif you just work on technique,
you're going to get better andyou're going to become more
efficient.
I love that.
I think master swimmers a lotof them want to just get in
there and burn calories orwhatever, and that's you know
(48:25):
that's a waste.
Get in there and become abetter swimmer.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yeah, I like that.
I think more people in masterswimming should focus on
technique and that it might bewhy swimming always feels better
the more you do it.
So when you're really swimminga lot, you're really swimming at
a high level.
If you miss two days in a row,or even sometimes even one day,
you just lose that.
It's called feel for the water,and so the feel for the water
(48:50):
comes from having good techniqueby doing it a lot.
My first takeaway was that Ilove that he said he requires
excellence from the people thatwork with him.
And then he kind of humbly said, oh, and I require excellence
from myself.
So I think that is such a greatstandard.
(49:11):
You know that so many thingsthat we do in our lives,
sometimes we can just phone itin or do it, you know, not to
our best.
You kind of know I'm not reallydoing my best, but I'm going to
get it done.
Daily basis.
(49:35):
If you do something excellentthat in the end you get such a
bigger reward than if it's justaverage, average, average kind
of get an average reward.
But I love that he focused onexcellence for those that he
worked with, those that workedwith him, and for himself.
Speaker 4 (49:47):
Yeah, I did too.
I love that word excellence.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yes, so what is your last takeaway?
Speaker 4 (49:55):
Oh, we talked a lot in this interview about process
and I mean we started talkingabout how, if you are more
focused on process, you're goingto be less less emotional, less
concerned about outcome andgoals, and I really really like
that.
I mean, I think it's easier forme as I get older.
It's good to have goals.
They inspire me, they get meout working out, but then in you
(50:16):
know the process of actuallythe event or the competition, or
just the process of practice orthe process of building one
work on another.
I just love that.
I think the older you get, themore you realize, yeah,
everything builds on itself.
He even talked about his book.
You sort of challenged him.
Like, you know, being in themoment doesn't write a book.
But the way he described it islike, yeah, I first I started
(50:38):
out with bullet points and thenI sort of fleshed those out and
pretty soon I could see that Ihad, you know, chapters and I
was like, yeah, everybody canwrite a book.
If you got an idea, create somebullet points, flesh those out.
I mean it's the process.
And create some bullet points,flesh those out.
I mean it's the process, andthen you're not so bunched up
about how it's going to come outor what's good, you know what
(50:59):
the end point is, or whateveryou.
Just you can enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
And you know that's what life is about.
Yes, I love that.
I mean, at the end of the day,everything can be about process.
It's like that, which is youjust get down to the process.
I love that for sure.
That was a huge part of it,everything that you know that he
was doing.
My second takeaway and this iswhat I'm going to close with is
I loved how much he thought outof the box on acquiring outdoor
(51:22):
pools.
So you know, when we startedtalking about swim coaches, go
out and buy a pool.
You know I'm envisioning likean indoor pool with a roof you
got to maintain and all that.
But the part about theseoutdoor pools is training
outdoors.
So the takeaway is that we cando well in cold, cold weather or
(51:42):
hot, hot weather, you know, butwe need that discomfort and he
frames it and promotes it asgreat air, which is fabulous.
As a swimmer, you know you're acyclist who rides on the road,
so you get great air.
But you know how many timeshave you gone into an indoor
pool and it just smells likechlorine and the air is awful,
(52:04):
and so I love that.
He was a big initial, you know,an early adapter of training
outside, and that he that heremembered it from high school.
Hey, I remember seeing thoseRussians training outdoors, so I
love how creative.
And then what a good salesmanhe is to say, hey, let's train
outdoors.
And they said they trained downto seven degrees.
(52:26):
So it's a little miserable forthe coaches, but it's great for
the swimmers because the wateris like 82 degrees.
So you, you know, you go fromthe freezing cold air into the
water.
It feels like a spa and it'sgood for you.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
All right, we got another great one in the books.
Thank you, I love you.
Speaker 4 (52:44):
Love you too, kelly.
See you soon.
Bye, all right, bye-bye.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
Thank you for listening to the Champions Mojo
podcast.
Did you enjoy the show?
We'd be grateful if you wouldleave us a five-star review on
iTunes to help others find us,and we'd also love to hear from
you.
We're on all social mediaplatforms or you can reach us at
championsmojocom.
There is a game within every race.
It's a lot how you use yourtechniques as well.
Racing isn't just swimming.
It's what you're doing in andout of turns, on finishes and
starts.
Of course it is a game.
The more you can keep it inthat realm of consciousness, I
think, the more you enjoy thesport.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to the award-winning Champions Mojo
hosted by two world recordholding athletes.
Be inspired as you listen toconversations with champions and
now your hosts, kelly Pallasand Maria Parker.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hello friends, welcome to the Champions Mojo
podcast and, as usual, I amco-hosting with Maria Parker.
Hey, maria.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hey, kelly, it's great to see you today.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Great to see you and also it's great to see our guest
, coach Dudley Duncan, reallyexcited for today's show.
Dudley is a fellow Virginian,like the two of us.
He has a storied coachingcareer in Virginia, with over 50
years on the pool deck, but notjust as a swim coach.
(01:09):
Coach Duncan is an innovativebusinessman and the author of a
new book.
Coach Duncan began his coachingcareer in 1968 in Newport News,
virginia.
Just one tiny part of hiscoaching history is that he put
two different swimmers on the USOlympic team.
He also had numerous championsin the USA and NCAA swimming and
(01:33):
, maria, you've got a littlespecial little couple notes that
our master swimmers are goingto be interested in about Coach
Duncan.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Sure, coach Duncan's new book is the Art of Swimming
and the Game of RacingReflections of a USA Club
Swimming Coach which shares hiscoaching history.
It breaks down the philosophyat the core of quest swimming,
reflects on the coachingpractices Duncan found most
effective and provides advice tocoaches interested in owning
(02:00):
their own club and pool.
But this episode's not just forswim coaches.
Coach Duncan coached masterswimmers for over 20 years, so
we're going to dive into somespecial topics to take your own
swimming to the next level.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yes, Coach Duncan.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
We're really excited to have you here.
So we want to dive in with thetopic that it might even be a
little taboo among masterswimmers, but it's in the title
of your book the Game of Racing.
We all can kind of understandthe art of swimming, but the
game of racing.
So let's preface this by sayingthat a lot of master swimmers,
(02:37):
the majority of master swimmers,don't race, and by racing we're
going to say going to some kindof a meet and standing up and
racing someone else.
Tell us why racing is important.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Now it came to mind originally was I was thinking,
you know, about 10 and under.
Swimmers are typically just sojoyful when they start competing
for the first time and all theywant to do is get to the end of
the pool.
And there's not really too muchtechnicality about it, they
just have tons of fun doing it.
They're always smiling andrunning around and playing,
(03:16):
having a great time.
And then as you get fartherinto the sport, then it becomes
a little more serious andgoal-oriented and those types of
things.
So oftentimes I think the gameof racing itself is lost in all
of those goals and the thingsyou're trying to achieve.
(03:37):
So it was just a way that Iwanted people to think about
swimming.
Still, there is a game withinevery race.
You know, some swimmers like tobuild a race toward the finish
and get stronger as they go.
Others like to take it out fast, try to hold on.
(03:57):
Some just race the competitiondepending on.
You know how they're set up inthe lanes and they race with the
field itself, and those areelements of racing that I think
give a lot of opportunity to dodifferent things and to enjoy
the game of racing.
You know, it's a lot how youuse your techniques as well.
(04:20):
So racing isn't just swimming,it's what you're doing in and
out of turns, you know, onfinishes and starts.
Of course it is a game and ifyou, the more you can keep it in
that realm of consciousness, Ithink, the more you enjoy the
sport.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Did you encourage your master swimmers to?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
race and I would say that it was all to get others
successful.
We did have people that weregoing to national championships
and going, you know, outside thestate to race, but it was
probably about half of thepeople that were actually
training at the pool or swimmingat the pool.
(04:58):
Different adults do things fordifferent reasons.
Adults do things for differentreasons.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
What stories do race?
Or do master swimmers tellthemselves that keep them from
going to events and actuallyracing?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I think the main thing that I heard from master
swimmers was that they weretired or they had some
experience that wasn't good forthem when they were younger as
you know, kids growing up andthey didn't want to get back
into that sort of pressureenvironment, you know, of
(05:31):
putting a judgment on theirperformance in any way.
So they like to stay calm andjust enjoy the act of swimming
rather than the racing itself.
And you know I had others,though that were highly enthused
to race, so just depended moreon the individual.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I love the concept of making it a game because you
know they say as adults, we needto play more, and I really love
you know, fellow swim coach toswim coach here that you do have
a game plan.
I mean the word game is in gameplan and that if you don't have
(06:10):
a game plan, when that gun goesoff you are completely lost.
You're at the whim of you know,maybe the guy next to you
swimming or whoever you'reracing, or you may go all out
and die, which is definitely notfun.
And I think that's a key insuccessful master swimmers that
I know and that I've both workedwith, and the success that I've
(06:32):
had in my own career is thatyou do have to have this.
Like somebody take a 200 free,which is so you know it's such a
great distance because it's nota sprint and it's not really a
distance event.
But, believe it or not, I havea plan where I swim the 200 free
, where I do a six-beat kick onthe first 25, then I drag my
(06:53):
legs on a 50, then on the next100, I do a different type of
kick and then on the last 50, Ibuild it to an all-out six-beat
kick.
I'm always thinking about thatgame plan when I swim a 200 free
and if I didn't I would just becompletely lost and it wouldn't
be any fun and it's almost likeif I can challenge myself to do
that, it's a game and I don'treally care where I end up if I
(07:16):
go to my game plan.
Can you tell us a story of anyof the many, many swimmers that
you have coached that have kindof stuck to a game plan that
might've looked different butthat ended up either successful
or not?
Just a good story around peopleusing a game plan for a race?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Well, you may remember Jeff Hutch.
He swam at Briarwood.
He was a pretty good swimmer,went to the University of
Arizona and still swims.
Also was involved with the NavySEALs and teaching them adapted
side stroke.
That enabled them to gain morespeed, but with efficiency, so
they didn't tire.
(07:58):
But he loved to race.
That was just what gave him joy,and he would typically he's
very good, by the way, but hewould typically put himself
somewhere between the knees andhips of the leader and he would
kind of just watch them and movealong at their speed until he
(08:20):
felt like it was his turn tomove ahead and then to try to
gain the win in the race.
That way.
I remember when he was probablya junior or senior in high
school, he was swimming for ourteam and there was a boy that he
had swum with on another teamtoo, who typically took races
out fast, and so there was alittle disagreement over whether
(08:44):
Jeff should continue to do whathe normally did and found joy
with, or whether he should getahead of this boy and stay ahead
of him all the time.
What ended up happening in thatparticular meet is that he went
ahead and tried to stay aheadand he failed in the race plan
because it wasn't to his comfort.
(09:04):
It wasn't the way he liked torace, so I think it was the last
time that he did that.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I love this discussion of game and game plan
and I just finished a bicyclerace and I think one of the
advantages of racing is puttingyourself in a different, a
different place with differentpeople.
And I think for most masterswimmer if I, if I don't do well
, it's not going to bring medown, you know.
(09:31):
I mean not too much, maybe for10 minutes, but mostly it's just
it's such a great experience tojust be in a different, you
know, a different venue andagainst different competitors
and, um, you know, in adifferent pool, I suppose, with
the bike and a different youknow, and it's exciting, you
know, and you finish that andit's you've seen a different
(09:52):
side of yourself.
But yeah, it's a game, it's fun, that's the whole point.
It's supposed to be fun, it'snot.
It's interesting to think ofeven adult master swimmers being
plagued by the pressure thatmaybe they put on themselves or
parents or coaches put on themas a child.
You know, we're adults, wedon't care, nobody cares, not
getting any money for it.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I think that's always been.
If I could talk somebody intothat was apprehensive, and talk
them into going to a master'smeet, then a lot of that would
fade away.
You know, a lot of thatapprehension would fade away,
because really, a master's meet,then a lot of that would fade
away.
You know, a lot of thatapprehension would fade away
because really, at master'smeets, while they're serious at
the time of the race and theywant to do the best that they
(10:34):
can, the atmosphere is so muchdifferent.
You know, it's so fun andloving and people are just
enjoying each other's companyand all and they make great
friendships that last a lifetimesometimes.
So yeah, there are advantagesif you can just get them past
that place.
A lot of them too, I think,will come out after it's been
(10:56):
years and years since they swamcompetitively as kids and they
are uncomfortable in bridgingthat gap of time and they don't
feel confident because of theamount of time that's passed.
So you have to get them to alevel of fitness where you can
talk to them about it and then,if you can get them to a meet,
(11:19):
pretty much got them hooked.
You know they like it.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yes, so you started coaching in 1968.
You retired from coaching in2019.
That is a 51 year, as wereferenced in your intro, a 51
year span of coaching, andobviously you must have worked
with lots of people's mindsetsand how they, you know, dealt
(11:46):
with both failure, success.
What do you think some keys toyour champions that you saw
people succeeding?
What were those traits that yousaw in your best performers?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
performers.
The prime instance thatreoccurred so often and every
swimmer has a tendency to leanthis way or not is if you put
the goal ahead of the process,then you typically will see
anxiety or some nervousness orsometimes even fear develop,
because they're not onlyelevated to try to accomplish
(12:31):
the result that they wanted toaccomplish, but they also kind
of fear it at the same time,whereas if you can get them to
focus on the process itself,just do a good start, swim the
race the way that we'vepracticed it all year in
anticipation of this, and finishwell, and it kind of goes away
(12:54):
and it takes away some of thatnervousness and anxiety and that
.
So the problem with thinkingabout the goal first is that
there's typically a judgment puton that.
So if they achieve it, they'reusually very happy and they have
some type of judgmentassociated with the happiness.
(13:16):
But also if they don't achieveit and they'll ask themselves
questions like is this worth it,or should I be doing this?
Should I do something else?
You know they'll put thatjudgment on and they'll wonder
what everybody else is thinkingabout them.
It's like they feel likeeverybody's watching their
performance, you know.
(13:36):
So yeah, I think it's animportant thing for a coach to
try to channel that energytoward things that they're
accustomed to and a belief inthemselves to do those things,
and the result will come as aresult of that, rather than to
try to put the result ahead ofthe process.
A lot of times they'll get sonervous thinking about trying to
(13:59):
achieve the objective thatthey'll almost forget how to
swim, or forget a race plan thatthey've practiced all year long
.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah, I remember my first running race Kelly got me
into and I was so nervous Icouldn't feel my arms or my legs
.
But I love this again, thisconcept of separating out the
process from the goal.
And one way to think of that, Ithink, is you're the hero in
your own adventure story andevery race or every event that
(14:29):
you do is kind of a new littleadventure.
You know, sometimes the badguys are going to you know be
bigger than you expected, andsometimes you know you're going
to, you're going to come out ontop and I love that.
You know just taking thejudgment out, this is your own
story.
Every event you do is your ownstory.
It's your own adventure and youknow at the end of it you're
(14:50):
going to learn and you know,take your next adventure from
what?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
you learned.
I do have a story.
This is a story about Rada Owen, who was on the 2000 Olympic
team in Australia.
Who was on the 2000 Olympicteam in Australia and she got
second in the 200 free to makethe team and I wasn't there.
She was swimming for Auburn atthe time, but I had coached her
all the way from eight years oldto 18.
(15:15):
So she called me after the racewas over and I asked her how
she was feeling and she goesgosh, that's the weirdest thing
she goes.
I really had that race in mymind.
I had visualized it and thoughtabout it every single day.
I knew exactly what I wanted todo in prelims and semifinals
and finals and it happened justlike I wanted it to.
(15:37):
And if I made the team, thatwas great, if I swam the way I
wanted to, but if I didn't, thatwould be okay too.
But I made it.
So I was really happy, ofcourse, but she said I was
really happier for some of myteammates that made it than I
was for myself.
So then she gets to the processof going from Olympic trials to
(15:59):
the Olympics.
And she didn't swim well at theOlympics she went not a good
swim at all, really.
So she called me again fromAustralia and she said well, you
know what I was telling youabout Olympic trials and I knew
what I was going to do andeverything she goes.
When I got to Australia, Inever thought about that race,
(16:22):
not even one minute, from thetime that I made the team, all
the way until it was time for meto swim semifinals.
Actually, he said prelims wereeasy, no problem, but semifinals
they announced us out, you know, or taking off our uniforms or
announcing us.
And I realized while I wastaking off my uniform that I had
(16:43):
not thought about that raceeven for a minute.
And she said I felt thisenormous fatigue come over me
like a wave.
And she said I was more tiredwhen I stepped onto the block at
the Olympics than I was duringall of Olympic trials and
everything I had to do there.
She said, and it's, I swam likethat too, of 75 meters and she
(17:03):
died because I just didn't thinkabout it.
So, yeah, that's how it goesreally.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
The lesson there is to think about it, to prepare in
advance, to rehearse mentally.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah Well, ideally, you're setting your goal, you
set up an action plan whereyou're going to practice every
day the way you want to swim, todo that goal.
You're going to practice everyday the way you want to swim, to
do that goal.
And then it comes, you know,from your mind and from your
subconscious when you're thereat the race, which is what
happened for Rita at Olympictrials.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
But it didn't happen at the Olympics because she
didn't go through that.
Well, I would think a lot ofour Olympic teams, when they go
over there, from whatevercountry, you've got to be so
focused on getting gold orgetting silver you know, getting
on the podium that you know youmay not think of the process.
So, other than Rada, you alsocoach Whitney Hedgepeth to the
Olympics.
What were some things that youfelt that Rada and Whitney
(18:02):
exhibited that made them special?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
She's very different.
Whitney was.
She was born to race.
I mean, she had race all insideof her from the very first time
that I saw her, at eight yearsold.
It was a YMCA meet, the firstone that I had been to with her,
you know and she gave the heata head start because she thought
she could win.
And then which she did win, youknow and I told her when she
(18:28):
come back I said whitney, yougave my head start.
Why'd you start so slow?
She said I thought I could win,so I just thought I would give
him a chance.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I go, whitney, that's not a good thing to do, you
know, that's hilarious yeah,that trade is called cocky,
which is pretty well yeah,exactly how about how about Rada
?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And Rada was a super technician.
Some people said that she wasone of the most efficient
freestylers that they'd everseen and her mental game was
exactly as I described it shewas very good, loved to go
through visualization sessionsand use what she had visualized
in the pool.
She had a picture in her mindall the time.
(19:11):
So that was different forWhitney.
She could hardly ever payattention to a whole
visualization session, you know,but she would really go for it
in the race.
I did have an experience withWhitney that I thought was
significant, that I thought itproved to be significant.
So we were training hard in themax VO2 phase of the training
(19:39):
and she was tired, as were manyothers, and I was trying to
encourage her, although shedidn't take it that way, and she
looked at me through hergoggles I could see the hatred
in her eyes, you know and shesaid I'd better make this
Olympic tee.
And we were toward the end ofpractice.
So I called it there, you know.
I said let's call it a day,whitney, you stay for a minute,
(20:02):
the rest of y'all go out.
So I sat with her and I toldher you cannot think like that
at Olympic trials.
You'll put too much pressure onyourself, you won't be able to
make it.
You know Well, at Olympictrials she was swimming five
events, monday through Friday100 free on the first day.
We were hoping she could make arelay.
She didn't, she was 10.
(20:24):
She didn't really care thatmuch about that.
You know, it was kind of anevent she didn't do normally,
but she had had a good race init during the summer.
Then the second day, though,was the 200 freestyle, and
that's the one we really thoughtshe had a good shot in, and she
was third.
So she didn't make the team,because there was no 800 free
relay in 1988 for the women.
(20:46):
Man, I was pretty apprehensiveabout going to that warm down
pool after that, but I went overthere and she goes well, I'll
miss, so I go, oh good.
So she was third in that event.
The next day was 400 free,which she did not want to swim.
She swam it for me because Iwanted her to swim it, and she
(21:08):
was really good at everydistance.
But she did not like 400 free.
She didn't make finals and shewas happy.
Then, thursday, she was 100 fly.
She was fifth in the 100 fly,and the last day was 200 IM.
So she places ninth.
But Angel Martino scraps the200 IM because she wanted to do
(21:32):
something special in the 53.
So Whitney got into lane eightand she placed second and made
the team in 200 IM Totally notexpected.
You know she had a reallywonderful breaststroke split for
her.
She dropped about three secondsoff her breaststroke split.
All by itself All the trainingthat we had done for the IM
(21:54):
really worked for her.
But yeah, that's an importantlesson, I think.
You know she didn't make the200 free.
She could have got down on it,you know, but she kept her
spirits up and took everythingin perspective.
And then she ends up making theteam on the 200 IM.
And you know she did not makethe team in 1992.
(22:15):
She was very close but missedmaking the team in 1992 and
stopped for a couple of yearsand came back and then made the
team and medaled in backstrokein 96.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
What a great story.
So you know, it's prettyamazing that you put, as a
longtime swim coach myself, youknow it's always a coach's dream
to want to put somebody on theOlympic team, and not many
coaches do even one swimmer onthe Olympic team.
But you had two on the Olympicteam, but you had two.
(22:55):
So let's talk about DudleyDuncan and your goals and your
mindset.
Like how do you, you know, didyou set these goals?
Did they just happen?
What is it about you thatyou're continually achieving
these incredible things, likeyour 50-year coaching career,
your Olympians now yourincredible, unique model for
swim coaches to purchase theirown pools.
(23:17):
Now you've got a book.
What drives Dudley Duncan andwhat's your mindset to get all
these achievements?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
That's a pretty good question.
Actually, I never thought aboutwhere I was supposed to be as a
coach.
I was really focused in, Ithink, on the moment and things
that I did and things that wereaccomplished during my career I
think happened sort of naturallybecause of the advancements
(23:44):
that the people that I wascoaching were making as a result
of the process that we did.
Like I didn't ever apply to bea national team coach or
anything.
I thought I was better suited Iactually got this from John
Flanagan.
I thought I was better suitedto be at home with the majority
of kids that I was paid to coachthan to go off in other places
(24:08):
and coach.
So I just stay in the movement.
But I do require, I think, ofpeople that they try to be the
best that they can be.
I really appreciate excellenceas a concept and try to bear it
out of myself as well as them.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
You know Iceman for John Flanagan?
I think you knew that JohnFlanagan never put anybody on
the Olympic team.
Did you know that?
Yeah, he got really close withMichelle swim coach ever and
(24:52):
certainly one of the finesthumans, but he would just to put
one person on the Olympic teamwould have been great for John.
So for you to do it, you know,to do it twice is incredible and
really Dudley.
You know, writing a book afteryour whole career is something
that's quite an achievement, anda book does not happen in the
moment, so tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, that's right.
I guess the first inclination Ihad to do it was that I really
had people telling me I shitover the years and I never
really thought about itseriously because I was usually
working too hard.
But when I retired, I don'tknow, it was in the back of my
mind some.
So I started putting somebullet points in place, you know
(25:36):
on the computer and justthoughts, and then I started to
elaborate on those thoughts alittle bit and expand on them
and next thing I knew it lookedlike chapters were developing.
I go, OK, then I'm going to tryto do this.
And so I did.
I kind of started to put anorder together for the chapters
(26:00):
and I wanted to present the book.
And it was a lot of myexperience, you know, from a
young coach to a mature coach.
So that's a kind of a naturalprogression.
But then I also wanted peopleto understand the elements of
club coaching that differ from,say, college coaching or YMCA
(26:23):
coaching or coaching that'sprimarily seasonal coaching, or
coaching that's primarilyseasonal because as a club coach
you're taking a child, you knowwhen they're seven or eight
years old, and you're coachingthem for a decade of time at
least and it's year round andthe meets are typically a
minimum of two and a half daysand 18 swims, you know, or so?
(26:45):
Yeah, it's a whole differentparadigm for coaching that I
think needed attention becauseit's not really out there.
People talk about coaching butthey don't really talk about
club coaching.
It's not like very much in, forexample, at coaching clinics.
You're not hearing it that way.
(27:05):
The other thing I wanted to dowas to share my feelings on that
, my thoughts, and then the lastthing was the business, because
every coach that you all knowon this has made this statement
If I had my own pool, I think Icould do this a bit better,
because you're always answeringto board members and not that
they're bad, I mean, that's agood thing to do.
(27:27):
Board members are great butyou're always having the back of
your mind.
If I had the ownership, I coulddo this, you know.
So I resigned from Poseid, so Iwanted to share with younger
coaches how I did that, becausemost of the time you think I
(27:56):
can't do that because it's tooexpensive.
I don't have, I'm not abusiness person or whatever, but
for me, I bought that pool byassuming a mortgage of $225,000.
It was a homeowner's association.
It wasn't a good pool, you know.
It was a really bad poolactually, but it didn't cost me
(28:17):
much.
I didn't have to put any moneydown, I just had to make the
monthly payment.
I refinanced it a few times totry to, you know, create some
cash.
But then in 2017, I had itappraised and it was appraised
at that time under that zoningfor $468,000.
(28:38):
And I wanted to build ateaching pool, which was going
to cost $1.7 million on theproperty.
So, you know, I looked intorezoning and decided I could
rezone it.
Maybe it would be worth more.
So I rezoned it and it wasappraised at $2.62 million.
(29:00):
So I was able to build the poolyou know, the teaching pool and
now it's pressing on a $3million revenue.
So I think it's kind of a storythat makes it seem like it
could be reasonable.
$225,000 was the price of atypical home in Midlothian at
(29:21):
that time for a three-bedroomrancher.
Right, I bought a three-bedroomrancher when I was 30, and it
cost me $49,950.
I could have done the samething when I was 30 that I did
when I was 56.
So that's what I wanted toshare about the business.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, that's a great story.
That's the deer run pool, right.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Help me understand how it's great for a coach to
own their own pool.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
It depends on who you are.
I admit that you know.
So you're able to make your owndecisions.
It doesn't take you any time todo it.
You don't have to go and sellthe idea to 13 board members,
you know, and have them agree onit and then go through
everything you have to gothrough.
You can't get anything done sooften, you know it just takes
(30:15):
time and then you don't havepeople that agree with you all
the time.
So you kind of work through allthat.
But when you have it, when it'syours, you make the decision
and it's done.
It's meant not be a gooddecision and you pay for that.
You know you have personalaccountability for that.
But most of the time, I thinkfor me I felt like they were and
(30:38):
you also have to be willing todo the work, because you're no
longer, you know, depending onother people to do the
accounting or doing the legalwork or you know all those
things.
You have to clean the toiletsand do that kind of work at the
end of the day and, you know,mow the grass and do all those
kinds of things, and then youhave to coach the team and enjoy
(31:01):
.
So there's a lot of work to itand I didn't sleep much for
those first few years, buteventually it worked out.
So if you want to do the workand you're an independent type
person that wants to controlyour own destiny, then I think
it's a good paradigm.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
You're never going to , you know, run into someone
else booking pool time when youwant it so you can have your
practices, you know, wheneveryou want.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
We didn't stop swimming during COVID.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, and so those are.
So you own those types ofthings.
Well, yeah, that's great, andso that's just like being your
own owner, operator,entrepreneur.
And did you say you expanded toanother pool, or was that the
only one you did?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Cool that one's owned by the pool management company
that I started.
We have total flexibility touse that pool as we need to.
There's nobody else in it,really, it's just us.
It's the only reason it's openis us.
So we have that.
It's a 25-yard by 25-meterZ-shaped pool, and then we have
(32:09):
the pool that we built on theDeer Run campus, which is the
teaching pool.
It's a pretty good situationaltogether.
Our intent now is to try tomake this the Evergreen pool.
What we call the Evergreen poolis the 25-yard by 25-meter pool
, as good as Deer Run is,because it's not as good.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I swam at Evergreen this morning with their master's
group, oh gosh.
So I know exactly what you'retalking about.
Yeah, it's a beautiful venueand a great location and yeah,
definitely would be nice to beas nice as the deer run facility
.
But yeah, I can totally see thepotential in that.
But I joked with the master'sgroup there, you know, Stan was
(32:51):
the coach and swam with theusual's group there, you know,
Stan was the coach and swam withthe usual group, that's.
You know.
I've been swimming at Deer Runwhen I'm in Richmond visiting,
you know, my family and helpingmy 94-year-old dad.
So we've been here quite a bitover the last several years and
so I've been swimming withdifferent master's groups
because I love I just love allmy master's friends and I have
(33:11):
different friends on differentteams.
So I've been swimming at Questand then they moved us over to
Evergreen where we've beenswimming at the Deer Run Pool,
and they moved us over toEvergreen.
So I would love to see thatEvergreen pool get as up to par
as the Deer Run Pool.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Well, I've told Chad and John that well, I actually
still own the business.
By the way, I'm not there tooperate it, but I'm still on the
loan for the teaching pool.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Are you part of Quest Swimming still, even though
you're retired?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah Well, I own it.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So I'm the majority owner in Quest Swimming.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Okay, and then Quest owns Evergreen through your pool
company Swim Metro.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well, swim Metro owns it, so that's a separate
company, separate owner.
My son actually has ownershipin Swim Metro.
The majority owner is a guynamed Kurt Schuster, who we
started the company together.
So they own that pool but theypretty much don't pay any
attention to it.
(34:14):
So, john and Chad, we're alwayswanting to get approval from
Kurt and Ryan to makeimprovements, because they don't
want to make improvements andthen have a loss for it.
And I've told them make theimprovements for yourselves,
because when you make theimprovements you're going to
improve people's desire to comethere and your cash flow will
(34:37):
get better from that, you know.
So it doesn't really matter ifthey don't want to pay attention
to it, that's their decision.
Just document it, tell themwhat you're doing and make the
improvements which they've done.
They put in new bathroomfacilities, the urinals and
toilets, and that they put newones in this year without having
(34:57):
Kurt's approval.
In my suggestion.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I love the entrepreneurial spirit.
Yeah, you're definitely thehero of your own story.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yeah, that's a great, great story.
Yeah, I did want to talk withyou about something that I think
you do incredibly well and Ithink those out there listening
that hey think, oh well, I knowthis person that should buy a
pool.
That is completely breaking themold in my mind and that is the
pools that we've been talkingabout.
(35:28):
And, maria, this is probablygoing to surprise you it was 32
degrees this morning here inRichmond Virginia when we woke
up and we swam outdoors.
So the two pools I don't knowif Deer Run originally was an
outdoor pool when you bought it,but I know that Evergreen is
just might be your local summerleague swim pool that just
(35:54):
doesn't want to be maintained bythe neighborhood country club
or the neighborhood HOAHomeowners Association.
So I love that Quest has hadtheir kids and their masters
swimming outdoors throughout aRichmond winter.
I'm not sure how far north thatmodel could go, but, dudley,
(36:15):
talk with us about how you cameup with.
Hey, let's put heaters in thesepools, because that's probably
your most expensive expense andwe're going to swim outdoors all
year round because I love it,love it, love it, love it as a
swimmer.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
The first time I had the idea was when I was in high
school, actually, and I waslooking at a National Geographic
and geography class and therewas a picture in there of a
Russian practice.
And it was outdoors and thecoach was dressed up all in you
know Russian type head thing andhe looked like the Michelin man
(36:52):
or something.
It's a furry hat.
You could see there was steamcoming up from the water and all
you could see was barely asilhouette of an arm and some
other arms as well, and Ithought, golly day, that really
that's a good thing, man,they're swimming in fresh air.
You know a lot of people haveproblems with chloramines and
indoor pools and that I likethat idea.
(37:14):
So later, when, you know, Istarted thinking about building
pools or getting a pool orbuying a pool or something.
I thought we can swim outdoors.
You know they did it in Russia.
We can do it, you know.
So, yeah, we're on the way backto high school, but we have
heated water and the coldesttemperature we've swum in
outdoors was seven degrees.
(37:34):
So you could get pretty farnorth with that idea.
I think you just have to havethe heater and it helps if it's
dependable.
So I bought new heaters.
I bought several heaters in mytime.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
And cool covers, right Cool covers.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, yeah's a.
It's a great thing, I think.
Uh, it's not natural for peopleto think that that's a good
idea.
You have to sell them on it alittle bit how do you sell them
on it?
well, that's what we've alwaystalked about the fresh air, that
we think it's really preferableto swim outdoors than it is
indoors because of thechloramines that happen in there
(38:14):
and a lot of times the air getshot, you know, it's steamy and
stuff.
It's not really a greatenvironment indoors anyway, but
it's a great environmentoutdoors.
It's just getting to the waterand getting out and the coaches
are uncomfortable.
I will say that I've been verycold, and so have John and Chad,
(38:35):
but they're a lot bigger than Iam.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
They could plug in a little space heater or something
.
Yeah, and I'll tell you anotherthing it's not good for us to
be in temperatures all the timethat are like 78 to 82.
Like we're always in that range, always with our body, and that
when we're exposed to cold,cold and this is non-shivering
cold, so you're not put intothat total shivering all the
(38:58):
time.
But you know, mark and I, afterpractice we were wet and we
stood on the deck and talked inour bathing suits and everybody
was looking at us like we'recrazy and we like, oh, we're
trying to burn our brown fat andwe're really trying to embrace.
There's something now calledmaria, you'll love this called
discomfort science.
I love it it's a whole new thingabout how we're all just way
(39:19):
too comfortable as humans.
So maybe we can add that intoit, dudley, and we can, you know
, we can start this drive whereall USA, all club teams, should
be buying their summer leaguepools and training outside all
year round yeah, you know, kelly, I believe that in the other
side too, with respect to heat,because when I was growing up
(39:40):
there was no air conditioning.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Maybe in your house you had a room, you know, a
window unit, so one room wouldbe, but there were no new air
conditioning in schools.
We went to school and all theschools had windows and, you
know, occasionally a teacherwould bring a fan in or
something and we went, you know,we did football practice and
stuff in the summers, doublesessions and all it was a lot,
(40:06):
man, it was like totallyuncomfortable, you know, during
the day.
But yeah, I think it's the samething on the other side Now.
Now we've air conditionedourselves, you know, to be
comfortable at thosetemperatures and we've heated
ourselves to be comfortable fromboth ends.
We're not uncomfortable enoughin our lives.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
That's exactly.
Yeah, that's exactly what theauthor said.
That it swings the same way.
Yeah, that's exactly what theauthor said that it swings the
same way, that we need to be hotand we need to be cold and
we're just too comfortable, andthat, when we are exposed to
these extremes, that we get abenefit, that we get a real
physiological benefit and thentherefore a psychological
benefit, because we're you know,we've endured this tough thing,
(40:52):
because we're you know we'veendured this tough thing.
Well, dudley, is there anythingthat we have not asked you that
you would like to share with us?
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I think with the Masters.
So I started the Mastersprogram up at Gear Run and I
coached it pretty much until Istopped coaching.
There's so much competition forMasters there.
Swim RVA is an awesome facilitythat a lot choose to go to, and
Briarwood still has somemasters over there.
(41:20):
There's a lot of people thatswim in the summer at their
summer pools blah, blah, blah.
You know.
So from a business standpointit's a difficult thing to do,
but from my perspective I reallywanted to do it because I
really think that it's a goodlifetime sport.
(41:41):
People keep doing it.
They stay healthier, I think,if they like to swim.
So it didn't really matter tome whether it made money or not.
You know, I just thought it wasa good thing to have going, and
I think it's still that way atQuest.
But the people are just a tonof fun.
They're just a blast, you know,and they really they try hard
(42:03):
and they do things that are goodand you have some that are
really focused.
You know they want to work hard, want to get BART rates up, and
that you have others that justwant to be technical.
They want to work hard, want toget BART rates up, and that you
have others that just want tobe technical and as a coach
that's kind of fun to do toobecause you can really help a
lot of those swimmerstechnically, you know, because
they're a lot of them come ininefficient, so you know they
(42:25):
haven't swum for a long time.
You know instinct is I alwayssay it's counterintuitive to
swim well to a human being.
So most people if they usetheir instincts they're going to
swim wrong.
Our instinct is really take adrowning person, you know they
want to lift their head, theywant to press down on the water,
they want to kick vigorously totry to stay at air.
(42:46):
That's a human instinct.
It's all wrong.
You know you're much better ifyou understand to press your
head, one, you know, eitherforward or back, press your body
weight into your chest so youcan leverage your hips up.
So not kick too hard, you know,so that you don't get tired.
Then you'll probably be okay.
But it's counterintuitive andwe do the same thing even in
(43:10):
competitive training.
If you're not reinforced on aregular basis I would say daily
in fact to do the right thing,you will instinctively start
doing the wrong thing.
That's why coaching is a goodjob, because you always have it.
You know they'll never get itexactly.
So yeah, I think, to be able togive a master swimmer that
(43:34):
ability to swim with ease andeffortless movement and to feel
themselves glide through thewater, a lot of them find great
enjoyment in that.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Well, wonderful.
So the very last thing we do isthe sprinter Round, where we
just ask you a few fun.
These are one-word answers sothat our listeners will get to
know you a little bit better.
Are you ready to play theSprinter Round?
Coach Duncan, take your mark.
What is your favorite sandwich?
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Boat, ham and mustard .
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Okay, what do you own that you should throw out?
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Shoes that I don't wear.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
What is the scariest animal to you?
Snake.
What celebrity would you liketo meet?
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Red Pit.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
What is the hardest swimming event in the pool?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
400 IM.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
All right, how about your favorite movie?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Braveheart.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
I like it, favorite smell.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
I don't have a sense of smell, but as I recollect a
gardenia.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
That's mine.
I think that's the only otherperson that said gardenia.
That's fine too Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
It's a very significant smell.
Okay, do you make your bedevery morning?
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
Kickboard or no kickboard, no kickboard.
If you had to listen to onesong for the rest of your life,
what would it be?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Ave Maria.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
That's beautiful Window or aisle.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Aisle.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Describe your life in five words.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I like to win races.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
What word comes to mind when you dive in the water?
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Dug, I'm not a swimmer.
I mean I swim, but it's not thesport that I choose for my
personal exercise.
So usually when I dive in, Idon't like it.
What is your sport?
Wrestling was my favorite sportin high school.
Now it's biking, actually.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
On the road or on a stationary.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
An A1A.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
The A1A.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
Wow, basically a couple hours a day.
Where do you live?
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Vero Beach, Florida.
Oh wow, Basically a couple ofhours a day.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
Where do you live?
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Vero Beach, Florida.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
So yeah, you're just south of us.
Yeah, be careful out there, allright?
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh, I do too.
It's great talking to you,great seeing you again.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Great Thanks, all right Take, it was great talking
to you.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Great seeing you again.
Great Thanks.
All right, take care.
Bye, maria, bye-bye.
Stay tuned for the takeaways.
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(46:34):
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And now the takeaways.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Okay, Maria, the takeaways.
What a great interview.
I know we went a little long,but it was just so interesting.
I could have talked to CoachDudley Duncan for much longer,
but he's just got so muchexperience and he's such a
besides being an amazing coach,he's a really great businessman,
and you and I are businesswomenand we run our own companies
(47:09):
and we wanted to even talk tohim after he got off the call
with us.
But what was your firsttakeaway on Coach Duncan?
Speaker 4 (47:18):
I think what hit me the hardest is his description
of our natural.
The way we naturally swim isreally not efficient because
we're trying to keep ourselvesfrom drowning and that technique
is everything you know and thatthat's what a coach does.
A coach helps you with yourtechnique and it's
counterintuitive and you needcoaching every day.
(47:39):
You need to work on techniqueevery day and you know of course
I knew that, but he just put itso clearly that swimming is not
natural, but with propercoaching we can create an
incredibly efficient andbeautiful style of swimming that
will feel good and get usthrough the water faster.
I just I'm a beginner swimmerand so well, I don't know if you
(48:04):
call me a beginner swimmer, butI but I struggle.
I don't have the background ofswimming from when I was six
years old and as a 61 year old,like, technique is hard.
So it was a great reminder thatif you just work on technique,
you're going to get better andyou're going to become more
efficient.
I love that.
I think master swimmers a lotof them want to just get in
there and burn calories orwhatever, and that's you know
(48:25):
that's a waste.
Get in there and become abetter swimmer.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yeah, I like that.
I think more people in masterswimming should focus on
technique and that it might bewhy swimming always feels better
the more you do it.
So when you're really swimminga lot, you're really swimming at
a high level.
If you miss two days in a row,or even sometimes even one day,
you just lose that.
It's called feel for the water,and so the feel for the water
(48:50):
comes from having good techniqueby doing it a lot.
My first takeaway was that Ilove that he said he requires
excellence from the people thatwork with him.
And then he kind of humbly said, oh, and I require excellence
from myself.
So I think that is such a greatstandard.
(49:11):
You know that so many thingsthat we do in our lives,
sometimes we can just phone itin or do it, you know, not to
our best.
You kind of know I'm not reallydoing my best, but I'm going to
get it done.
Daily basis.
(49:35):
If you do something excellentthat in the end you get such a
bigger reward than if it's justaverage, average, average kind
of get an average reward.
But I love that he focused onexcellence for those that he
worked with, those that workedwith him, and for himself.
Speaker 4 (49:47):
Yeah, I did too.
I love that word excellence.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yes, so what is your last takeaway?
Speaker 4 (49:55):
Oh, we talked a lot in this interview about process
and I mean we started talkingabout how, if you are more
focused on process, you're goingto be less less emotional, less
concerned about outcome andgoals, and I really really like
that.
I mean, I think it's easier forme as I get older.
It's good to have goals.
They inspire me, they get meout working out, but then in you
(50:16):
know the process of actuallythe event or the competition, or
just the process of practice orthe process of building one
work on another.
I just love that.
I think the older you get, themore you realize, yeah,
everything builds on itself.
He even talked about his book.
You sort of challenged him.
Like, you know, being in themoment doesn't write a book.
But the way he described it islike, yeah, I first I started
(50:38):
out with bullet points and thenI sort of fleshed those out and
pretty soon I could see that Ihad, you know, chapters and I
was like, yeah, everybody canwrite a book.
If you got an idea, create somebullet points, flesh those out.
I mean it's the process.
And create some bullet points,flesh those out.
I mean it's the process, andthen you're not so bunched up
about how it's going to come outor what's good, you know what
(50:59):
the end point is, or whateveryou.
Just you can enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
And you know that's what life is about.
Yes, I love that.
I mean, at the end of the day,everything can be about process.
It's like that, which is youjust get down to the process.
I love that for sure.
That was a huge part of it,everything that you know that he
was doing.
My second takeaway and this iswhat I'm going to close with is
I loved how much he thought outof the box on acquiring outdoor
(51:22):
pools.
So you know, when we startedtalking about swim coaches, go
out and buy a pool.
You know I'm envisioning likean indoor pool with a roof you
got to maintain and all that.
But the part about theseoutdoor pools is training
outdoors.
So the takeaway is that we cando well in cold, cold weather or
(51:42):
hot, hot weather, you know, butwe need that discomfort and he
frames it and promotes it asgreat air, which is fabulous.
As a swimmer, you know you're acyclist who rides on the road,
so you get great air.
But you know how many timeshave you gone into an indoor
pool and it just smells likechlorine and the air is awful,
(52:04):
and so I love that.
He was a big initial, you know,an early adapter of training
outside, and that he that heremembered it from high school.
Hey, I remember seeing thoseRussians training outdoors, so I
love how creative.
And then what a good salesmanhe is to say, hey, let's train
outdoors.
And they said they trained downto seven degrees.
(52:26):
So it's a little miserable forthe coaches, but it's great for
the swimmers because the wateris like 82 degrees.
So you, you know, you go fromthe freezing cold air into the
water.
It feels like a spa and it'sgood for you.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
All right, we got another great one in the books.
Thank you, I love you.
Speaker 4 (52:44):
Love you too, kelly.
See you soon.
Bye, all right, bye-bye.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
Thank you for listening to the Champions Mojo
podcast.
Did you enjoy the show?
We'd be grateful if you wouldleave us a five-star review on
iTunes to help others find us,and we'd also love to hear from
you.
We're on all social mediaplatforms or you can reach us at
championsmojocom.
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