October 13, 2024 • 58 mins
The French Explorer Who Founded Detroit: Lamothe Cadillac
Did you know the founder of Detroit came from a small village in southwest France? In this episode, host Annie Sargent and guest Kim Loftus dive into the life of Antoine Laumet, better known as Lamothe Cadillac. He’s the man who established Detroit and left a lasting mark on both French and American history.
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Born near Toulouse in the village of Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave, Cadillac reinvented himself when he set off for the New World. Along the way, he adopted a new name, a new identity, and used his charm and ambition to rise in the ranks of New France. He became a key figure, founding Fort Pontchartrain (which would later become Detroit) and serving as Governor of Louisiana.
Annie and Kim also share their visit to Cadillac’s birthplace, where they explored the local museum and uncovered more about his legacy. They talk about the small towns of southwest France, like Castelsarrasin and Moissac, and their connections to this intriguing historical figure.
Cadillac was an ambitious and controversial man who shaped early French-American history. Whether you’re a history buff, a Francophile, or just curious about the real story behind the name "Cadillac," this episode is full of fascinating insights.
Listen now to discover more about this bold explorer and his incredible journey from rural France to the founding of Detroit!
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Annie Sargent (00:16):
This is Join Us in France, episode 515, cinq cent quinze.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, you'll get to discover theadventurous life of Antoine Laumet,
(00:36):
better known as La Mothe Cadillac, theFrench explorer who founded Detroit.
Join me and my guest KimLoftus as we delve into the
fascinating tale of his exploits,transformation, and enduring legacy.
From his humble beginnings near Toulouse,my fair city, to his impactful presence
(00:57):
in the New World, in this episode, wetake a deep dive into the captivating
adventure that shaped two continents.
What a guy, you'll see.
This podcast is supported by donorsand listeners who buy my tours and
services, including my itineraryconsult service, my GPS self-guided
tours of Paris on the VoiceMap app,or take a day trip with me around the
(01:21):
southwest of France in my electric car.
You can browse all of that at myboutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
And Patreon supporters get new episodesas soon as they are ready and ad-free.
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes.
For the magazine part of the podcast,after my chat with Kim today, I'll
(01:42):
discuss must have items you should havein your travel purse or small backpack.
Be a minimalist.
You just want the rightthings, but not too much.
Exciting news!
The booking system for the Bootcamp2025 is now officially open for patrons.
This exclusive event will take place inToulouse from May 10th to May 18th, 2025.
(02:08):
We highly recommend arriving onMay 9th and departing on May 19th,
to ensure that you don't miss anyof the fun and activities planned.
As always, this event sells outquickly, so if you're a patron, now
is the time to lock in your spot.
For everyone else, booking will opento the general listenership next week.
(02:30):
Stay tuned to the podcast, emails,and Patreon messages for update.
What's the bootcamp, you ask?
This is a 10 day immersive experienceexploring the Southwest of France,
packed with daily visits to some ofthe most beautiful and historically
significant sites in our region.
If you want to add a bit more challenge,you can also take French classes in
(02:53):
the morning at Langue Onze in Toulouse.
They offer courses at every level,from total beginner to advanced.
The language classes are optionaland separate, but I coordinate with
Langue Onze to ensure that there areno scheduling conflicts, so you can
enjoy both without missing a beat.
If you choose to do both, it'll bea true bootcamp experience, keeping
(03:17):
you busy from 9am to 9pm every day.
If you opt to not take the classes,you'll still have full day activities
on weekends, with weekday morningsfree to explore at your leisure.
The visits are conducted by Elyse inEnglish, but if you are feeling confident
and want to practice your French withme, I'll gladly respond in French.
(03:40):
Anybody who speaks to me inFrench, I respond in French.
That's how it works.
If you speak in English,I respond in English.
And if you try Spanish, good luckto you, but I will try anyway.
And of course, we'll be soaking inFrance the entire time and that always
helps with language acquisition.
One last note, this may be the finalyear Elyse joins me on the bootcamp,
(04:04):
as it is an intense experienceand it takes a lot out of her.
So if you want to experience thedynamic duo of Annie and Elyse in
person, now is the time to sign up.
(04:25):
Bonjour, Kim Loftus, and welcomeback to Join Us in France.
Kim Loftus (04:29):
Bonjour, Annie.
Merci.
Annie Sargent (04:31):
Wonderful to have you.
We are going to talk about quite the guy.
Kim Loftus (04:36):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (04:36):
And quite the story.
So there was this guy called AntoineLaumet, that's how he started, and he
was born in a small village not far fromToulouse, Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grav e.
And his dad was a judge.
In those days you purchased yourtitle to be a judge or to be anything
(04:58):
else, as a matter of fact, and so hewas like a judge under another judge.
But he was not very wealthy, but he didfine, and then one day, this Antoine
Laumet decided to go to America.
And a lot of things happened.
So tell us a little bit about whatyou know about him and why you're
so interested in this person.
Kim Loftus (05:20):
Sure.
Well, I have been a fan of French, andFrench culture and history, for as long
as I can remember back to high school.
Because I took French in high schooland college and Madame Gill, our
high school teacher, was very goodabout weaving in culture and history.
So I know I learned a little bit abouthim back then as well as other people
that I've been fascinated with foryears, but he really popped up in my
(05:44):
awareness zone about two years agowhen I was the development director
for the Historical Society of Michigan.
It's a small nonprofit in Michigan thatpromotes Michigan history education.
And so I was getting acquainted withsome of the work that they've been
doing, and I came across Cadillac's wife,Marie Therese, and found a children's
(06:05):
book, a young adult book about her,and just thought that was fascinating.
So then I wanted to learn about him.
Meanwhile, you announced in the firstbootcamp in 2023, and I had signed
up, and then I started to look, well,where are some famous people from
Michigan, especially New France?
Where did they come from?
And Cadillac, surprisingly, was born notan hour, sort of, north west of Toulouse.
(06:31):
And so I reached out toyou and said, Can we go?
And it was too latefor the first bootcamp.
So when I signed up for this year'sbootcamp 2024, it was a must.
I immediately signed up and then saidAnnie, can I book you for a trip?
Can we go to Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave?
And then amazing that Cadillacwas, his last appointment that he
(06:54):
purchased was a governor, or a mayor ofCastelsarrasin, and that's less than 15
minutes from Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave,and he supposedly was buried there.
By the time we got to the bootcampday trip, it turns out that Cadillac
probably studied in Moissac as well.
Annie Sargent (07:13):
Yeah, Moissac.
Kim Loftus (07:14):
Moissac.
That's where his father kind of worked.
There were relationships there, sothey figure there's nothing official,
but, so these three little townsrelated to the man who is credited
with founding Detroit and establishingthe first fort there in 1701.
That fort was called Fort Pontchartrain.
Those were all connected to this personof great Michigan historic significance.
(07:39):
He was in Michigan a lot, because he alsowas governor of one of the northernmost
forts, prior to 1701, Fort Michimillimac.
And he was there for several years, andthen got called back to France, convinced
them to let him come back to the NewFrance and establish the fort in Detroit.
Annie Sargent (07:59):
Yeah.
So for our day trip, we had, it wasa bit of an adventure because I had
looked ahead and saw that there'sa museum in the house where he was
born, in Saint Nicolas de la Grave.
And that the museum was openevery morning, you know,
it gave hours and whatever.
And when we showed up, it was locked.
Nobody there.
(08:20):
So that was a bit disappointing.
So we...
Kim Loftus (08:24):
Except...
Annie Sargent (08:25):
Except, yeah, go ahead, go ahead, you tell it!
Kim Loftus (08:28):
Except while we're standing there going, oh, drats, this isn't open
until July or August and we're there inMay, a man came out across the street
and started talking to Annie, and itturns out he was a descendant through
Cadillac's grandmother's side of thefamily, and he proceeded to march us
over to the tourism office, the mayor'soffice, and then the post office,
(08:49):
trying to find a key to the museum.
And he was delightful, and it wasjust wonderful to watch the animated
conversations all along the way.
He spoke such rapid French, ElizabethSaxon, who came with us, neither
of us could understand entirely theconversation, but loved being part of
Annie Sargent (09:08):
Right, so yeah, he was like, he was, oh, you must see
this, you came all this way, it'sterrible that it's closed, whatever.
And this does outline a problem that wehave in France is that a lot of the time
the people who do tourism, you know, thetourist office, things like that, they
are paid by the city, and this was a longweekend, and city employees get their long
(09:30):
weekends, which doesn't make any sense.
Because that's when peopleare likely to come visit.
Anyway, that's another whole situation.
But because we went to talk to thepeople at City Hall, I decided, and of
course we didn't quit on our day trip.
We continued on to Castelsarrasinand to Moissac that day, to do the
rest of the visit, we just hadn'tseen the museum where he was born.
(09:53):
And then I called the City Hall andleft a message, and the mayor called
me back, and said, he apologized.
He said, I'm so sorry thatnobody was there to open for
you, they should have called me.
I would have opened for you,and I said, well, we could
conceivably come back just for that.
And he said, oh, then yeah.
(10:15):
So we made a date and we went back.
And when we went back,there was the mayor.
He had invited the localhistorian to show us around.
She was delightful, didn't speakany English, but she was delightful
and she told us the whole story.
And we also both of us bought this book.
It's called Le Destin Extraordinairedu Gascon Lamothe Cadillac.
(10:38):
So The Extraordinary Destinyof the Gascon Lamothe Cadillac.
And I loved what the lady, the historiantold us about him, because she weaved
a wonderful story and it's quiteclear that this man was a man of, it
was quite a successful storyteller.
(10:59):
He weaved a lot of storieshimself, didn't he?
Kim Loftus (11:02):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (11:02):
So he decided to leave his home, Saint Nicolas de la Grave,
and he made his way to the ocean,to get on a boat to go to America.
Along the way, he had plenty of time tothink and decided that Antoine Laumet
was not quite good enough as a name, andthat he should have a better persona, and
so he took the name Lamothe because thatwas the count, that was the important
(11:26):
person right around where he lived.
And then he later took the nameCadillac because he went through
the village of Cadillac, which isa little South of Bordeaux, right?
And thus the name AntoineLaumet Lamothe Cadillac.
And she told us that along theway, on his way to the Americas,
he made a whole persona.
And where he was really smart, and thisis something I learned reading the book,
(11:50):
is that he didn't make anything from, hedidn't make things up from whole cloth.
He would base all his storieson real things, and real people.
So that, you know, if anybody checked,they would find a person with that name.
Didn't matter that he never met themand he had nothing to do with them.
He based it, so he hadreal knowledge of the area.
(12:13):
And the other thing that was reallyimportant is that he had learned how to
speak and write very good French because,back then, everybody spoke Occitan.
That was the language in mostof France, as a matter of fact.
But he had learned proper French,he could write it, he could read
it, and he could impress people.
So, when he showed up in the Americaswith his new name, it was believable.
(12:37):
His story was believablebecause he could read and write.
Kim Loftus (12:41):
And I think it's also, back then, even if someone wanted
to verify something, they'd have towrite back to France, and it would
take months, or maybe even years toget the communication back and forth.
I think he must have known that as well.
You know, people today create theirpersona or their influencer profile.
We know these sort of types ofcharacters, I guess, you get sort of
(13:03):
those modern terms, but back then theydid the same thing when they wanted
to create a life for themselves,there was lots of opportunity if
you were willing to take huge risksand go someplace considered wild.
Annie Sargent (13:16):
It was.
Kim Loftus (13:17):
And that's what he did.
Annie Sargent (13:19):
He shows up in Quebec and he meets his wife to be.
And you learned a wholebunch about her, didn't you?
Kim Loftus (13:26):
Yeah, she was an orphan early on, and so she was raised in Quebec City
by nuns at a convent school for girls.
But she had an aunt and uncle who alsolooked after her and lived in Quebec.
And I think he was in business.
And through her uncle, that's howshe was introduced to Cadillac,
and eventually was married to him.
(13:48):
I think she was 18 and hewas 29 when they got married.
And on that marriage document, that'sthe first time that the world sees his
new name and persona in its official.
And that's often part of the storyis like, we know he was born Antoine
Laumet, and then he became thiswhole other person when he was
(14:10):
29 on his marriage certificate.
Annie Sargent (14:13):
Right, and so that's the first time he signed, that's
the first document we find todaywith the name Lamothe-Cadillac.
But then, at the very end of hislife, when he was selling some of
his properties, so back in France,back in the southwest of France, the
last deed he ever signed, he signedit Antoine Laumet Lamothe-Cadillac.
(14:33):
Because he could not pull offthat weird persona in France.
Like, they knew he was Antoine Laumet.
There was no hiding it here.
So, it was really,really funny to see that.
But he still used both names to the end,you know, so really interesting guy.
Kim Loftus (14:51):
And Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave is what would have been a
village then, and it still isconsidered a village today.
Because it's a small, verysmall, but that's one of the
charming things about it.
It's like, you know, there'sthe four room Cadillac Museum.
There's the Victorian eramarketplace structure.
And then there's the church that is fromthe typical Toulouse style with the pink
(15:16):
brick and it's charming all in itself.
It's all in this little area andthen the mayor's office is in the
Richard the Lionhearted castle,or at one point it was, and now
it's a public office building.
So I thought, and the people, like thatman who came and tried to help us, and
then we went to the cafe, and it wasall, he and his, the guys, that was
(15:39):
a Friday morning I think, were havingcoffee and getting their day started,
and he was there, and there's animatedconversation going, and then he walks off.
I loved it that he came back bylater with this baguette under his
arm, and then headed home aftertrying to be our hero in a way.
Annie Sargent (15:56):
No, he was really sweet.
He was a very nice person.
Everybody in the villagewas really kind to us.
And then we moved on to Castelsarrasin,where Lamothe Cadillac finished his life.
And now, I read the wholebook and it is fascinating.
The author of the book is RenéTougeat and he did a really
good job, because it's readable.
(16:17):
A lot of these kind of historiansthat decide to take it upon
themselves to write a book don'tdo such a good job at the writing.
He did really well.
And he also really backed up all hisassertions with original documents.
And there's photos ofthe original documents.
They are a little bit hard to read becauseit's, you know, even though he spoke
and wrote good French, it's aged a bit.
Kim Loftus (16:40):
Yeah.
It's old French, right?
It's only about 83 pages, buthis primary sources are ideal to
support the points he's making.
And he also has a bibliographythat's really good.
And some of those go back, theoldest document, and that is quite
old 1895, and that was a historianin Detroit who wrote the first book,
(17:01):
probably English speaking book, Mr.
Burton.
He's known in the Detroit areastill, there's the Burton Library,
it's a historical library atthe Detroit Public Library.
Annie Sargent (17:11):
At any rate, a really fascinating life, the stuff he
did, now he was really after money.
He wanted to make it big.
He wanted to become rich.
I think that motivated a lot of peoplewho went to the Americas, honestly.
And he decided that he was going to doall sorts of trading, so they would trade
furs with the natives and sell them goods.
(17:33):
And there was, I mean, there'sa lot of shenanigans in the
book about cutting off supplies.
You know, there were differentplaces where you could buy things.
And he was very astute about, oh,I don't want them to buy from this
guy, I want them to buy from me.
So he would cut off supplies.
He made a lot of friends, but he alsomade a lot of enemies, because he was
(17:55):
doing things, I mean, he was ruthless,he was very ambitious, wanted to
make money, would think nothing aboutlying, hiding, all sorts of things,
you know, he just did a lot of things.
He also went against what theJesuits wanted him to do, because
at the time the French were sendingmissionaries to try and convert
(18:17):
the 'savages', they called them.
And all through the book,all the references to the
native peoples is savages.
It's actually shockingto see it like that.
It's like, oh, really?
These are people we're talking about.
But that's how it was.
And they really, the missionarieswanted to convert them, but
(18:38):
wanted to keep them separate.
Like they wanted a lot of them, butthey didn't want to mix with them.
And they definitely did not wantEuropean women to marry, or European
men to marry native peoples.
But that's what Lamothe wanted.
He thought, look, we need people.
We need more people.
Without people, there's no business.
Kim Loftus (18:58):
I think he also thought that if a native person and a European
married, that would be more likelythat they would remain in North
America, in New France, and establisha farm or a business and grow their
family, and it would stabilize it.
I think that was his theory, but itwas apparently not missionary approved.
Annie Sargent (19:21):
And also there's a whole thing about the Iroquois, I'm
not sure what was happening there.
Do you know very much about that?
Because they seem to be, like ruling overother tribes and at war with other tribes.
Kim Loftus (19:33):
Yeah, there was all those tribes.
There are numerous tribes (19:35):
Iroquois, Huron, Ojibwa, and probably many others,
I'm not as well versed in all those,but they also were probably, just
like anywhere else, trying to protecttheir territory, their rich trading
ground, resources, or hunting grounds.
And then as the Europeans arrived, oneof the things I read was, Cadillac was
(19:56):
really good at establishing relationshipswith the tribes, and trying to keep peace
amongst all of them, along with his troopsthat came with him, I've forgotten what,
they have a term for the group that camewith him, but he had to try to constantly
keep the peace and keep everyone happy.
So he may have had to makeagreements with one tribe, and
then it would have been another.
(20:17):
And by the time Cadillac leaves in1710, I believe, we're starting to
get into like more English is arrivingand there's more battles, especially
on the east coast for the territory.
And eventually it leads to the, whatoriginally was called the French
Indian War, and it was about Canada.
When Canada eventually lost to theEnglish, New France was no more.
Annie Sargent (20:42):
Hmm.
Kim Loftus (20:42):
That comes much later after Cadillac is done.
But it took, you know, like a centuryto lead up to the final battle that
the French lost to the English.
Annie Sargent (20:51):
Yeah, so when he started out, it was, the very first way he got
himself noticed is because he was verygood at taking notes and drawing maps.
And so he would travel looking for huntingfor furs and things like that, and he
would make notes and draw maps, and thenhe would be able to go back to Quebec,
and Quebec City, and then he could justreport and show them what he had seen.
(21:16):
And that was invaluable.
Then he made several trips back andforth to France, between Canada and
France, and when he would show up inFrance, he would go back to France,
but to Paris, not to the Southwest.
And there he could tell them astory because how would they know?
And he always told a great story aboutall the savages, and the landscapes,
(21:37):
and the riches and all of that stuff.
And he was believablebecause he had been there.
He knew a lot of things.
Imagine a world with no TV, noradios, no nothing, no entertainment.
And you have some guy who shows upand you can tell you tales of the Wild
West and Canada and places like that.
I mean, they loved him.
They ate it up.
Yeah.
Kim Loftus (21:59):
It's very interesting when he grew up, you know, in this little
village, maybe went to the nearby schools.
That's probably where he learned French,but he must have been incredibly eloquent
and smart because of his ability toconvince people, be persuasive, tell
these stories, knew what they wanted tohear, because he had audiences with Louis
(22:20):
XIV, and the Minister of the Marine,who gave him ships to go back and forth,
and resources and assigned men to him.
It's just fascinating thathe was able to do all this.
Annie Sargent (22:31):
Right, he kept being promoted.
So he started out small, but thenhe ended up, being the top guy,
even though there were a lot ofpeople, even at his time were saying,
you know what, this guy is fishy.
He's awfully greedy and he doesthings that we don't approve of.
But still, you know, he wasdoing a good enough job that
they let him get away with it.
(22:52):
And it's incredible that he took 50soldiers and 50 savages, as he called
them, and they decided to make theirway to Detroit, from Quebec, with
canoes and everything on their backs.
And when they arrived, itwas early July, I think.
So they left, oh yeah, they lefton June 5th and they arrived
(23:14):
around July 20th, more or less.
And they knew that they had toestablish something, you know, they
had to do something before it gotsuper cold, and they worked very,
very hard and survived the winter.
And one of the things that made lifedifficult for a lot of the people
who, a lot of the Europeans who wentto the Americas, is that they were a
(23:37):
bit stubborn and they wanted to growthe same kind of crops that they were
used to in Europe and it didn't work.
And he was more willingto learn from the locals.
And so they were able to quicklyhave some crops and survive.
Because I mean, you know, if you haveno food, it's over kind of quickly.
Kim Loftus (23:56):
Right.
And I think they utilized, they took greatadvantage of the fur trade, which allowed
them to trade with the native peoples andthen send those materials back to France.
And so they kept showing the king andthe other leaders of the government how
well off this area was, and that there'sresources here that would benefit France.
Annie Sargent (24:19):
Yeah.
But that's why they, you know, itwas greed, they want to take over.
I mean, there's no question about that.
So then, we're going to go move throughthis quickly, then he was no longer
welcome in the Detroit area because hehad just annoyed a few too many people,
and it got to the point where, you know...
And another thing that he did that wascompletely against the rules is that he
(24:40):
would happily sell alcohol to the nativetribes, which was not okay by the French
king, but he did it anyway, because that'swhat he could easily sell and trade.
And of course, he poisoned them.
It was just, he was ruthless, I mean,he would do whatever to advance.
Kim Loftus (24:58):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (24:59):
Like anything, he would do anything.
So eventually he leavesCanada to come back to France.
Well, he leaves Canada, Detroit, Iguess we should call it at this point.
I mean, it wasn't yet the US.
Kim Loftus (25:15):
He went back, they recalled him, I think is what I remember.
He, the king or the minister of theMarines said, come back here, we've
got to investigate what's happening.
And that was around 1710.
And this is where he was so persuasive.
Instead of getting in trouble, hebecomes appointed governor of Louisiana.
Which was a new, anotherterritory of France, and it
(25:38):
was uninhabited at that point.
But he wasn't happy about that.
Annie Sargent (25:42):
No.
No.
So yes, they removed him fromthe Detroit area because he was a
pain and called him back to Paris.
Didn't know what to do with him.
And they decided, okay, we'regoing to stick him with Louisiana.
Like you said, it was very inhospitable.
There were no people there.
He did business with a guyin Toulouse called Crozat.
(26:04):
So we still have a bigCrozat family in Toulouse.
They own a lot of businesses, buthe robbed him blind because he just
told him a, you know, song and danceabout all the things that they
were going to find in Louisiana.
He had never set foot inLouisiana himself, so he
knew nothing, but he sold it.
He really, really sold it.
And he raised money and once hegot there, he realized, ooh, uh...
Kim Loftus (26:27):
He did not like it.
Annie Sargent (26:28):
No, he did not like it.
He didn't want to stay.
At the same time, the king wasalso doing a very unethical kind
of business transaction, where hewould sell to hopefuls who wanted
a piece of the Louisiana fortune.
Gold mines and you know, wealthuntold, he would sell them shares.
(26:51):
And they feared that if he, whenhe came back to France, having
seen Louisiana, he would openhis yap and kind of, you know...
Kim Loftus (27:00):
Yeah, because I think he said it like it was sometimes.
Annie Sargent (27:03):
Yes, he sure did.
And so they, when he and his soncame back from Louisiana, they
just put him in the Bastille, forabout six months to shut him up.
Kim Loftus (27:12):
That was in 1717.
He and his son, who is now a young man,were there for six months until they got
everything cleared and then it was like,okay, let him out because he won't, it
won't interfere with our plans anymore.
Annie Sargent (27:25):
Right.
And so he goes back to the Southwest,having bought a appointment as the
governor of Castelsarrasin, which is thebigger town next to where he was born.
And he didn't like it that much.
So he kept going back to Paris.
He spent most of his time in Paris.
His wife, however, stayed inSaint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave.
(27:47):
And she was like, I'm done with you.
I'm staying here.
Kim Loftus (27:50):
And they had a daughter by then who was married and grandchildren.
Annie Sargent (27:53):
Yeah.
Kim Loftus (27:54):
Like an extended family.
Annie Sargent (27:56):
Yes.
Yes.
And this is a family that was abit complicated because one of the
reasons why he left France is becausehis older brother was suing his
parents for some sort of inheritance.
There was a lot of badblood in the family.
You know, these are not people who aregetting along, you know, no, no, no, no.
And so he wasn't so sure that hewanted to be back in the Southwest,
(28:20):
but that's where he had connections.
You know, he was getting older, and hewas like, well, I got connections here,
and so he ended up going to the Southwest.
There's one point at the end of the bookwhere they explained that his daughter
was getting married in Castelsarrasin,but he did not attend the wedding
because he was in Paris and he didn'twant to come back for the wedding.
(28:42):
And a little bit later, he had to comeback, a few days after that, well,
maybe a few weeks after that, he hadto come back to sign some sell of
something or other, and that's the onetime, that's the last time we see him
signing Antoine Laumet Lamothe Cadillac.
And that's on the occasion of thattrip that he died in the house.
So it said, what we heard wasthat he died in the house that had
(29:06):
been appointed to the governor.
Right?
Kim Loftus (29:09):
L'Hotel Bouvinard.
Annie Sargent (29:10):
Which was a beautiful home in Castelsarrasin that we got to visit.
But according to the book,it's not clear where he died.
The book doesn't make it very clear.
And the book also explains thatthey're not sure where he's buried.
We tried to find his grave.
We drove around trying to find his grave.
Kim Loftus (29:28):
There are several resources that say he was buried at the cemetery
of a Carmelite church, and there's likea tower left, and so we had two different
locations and ended up in, one was anorchard, and one was a private residence.
It didn't look like it was everanything else, so where he's
buried is a bit of a mystery.
Annie Sargent (29:48):
At the end of the book, the author says that they were trying to find
his grave as well, because it says, justlike his parents, he was buried at the
Église des Carmes, so the Carmes Church inthe city, which it's not a church anymore.
And that they dug up this old area a fewyears ago, looking for bones that they
(30:11):
could test, they could do DNA testing.
And they thought they were close tofinding the right bones, but there
was a violation of the sepulchre.
Kim Loftus (30:21):
I read that, too.
Annie Sargent (30:22):
And they stopped digging.
Kim Loftus (30:23):
They weren't allowed to continue.
Annie Sargent (30:25):
Right.
So, we don't know.
Kim Loftus (30:26):
It was fun to try to find it, because we ended up in parts of
the village, like I said, we drovethrough that orchard and it was lovely,
and it was early spring, but we werelike, I don't think this is a cemetery.
Annie Sargent (30:38):
No, it wasn't.
No, it wasn't.
So it was an interesting day, and wetalked to some lovely people, and we
saw some lovely things, and we had togo back to the house where he was living
because that was also pretty funny.
The lady, so I had contacted her aswell, and so we knocked on the door and
I introduced myself and said, I'm theone who left your message, whatever.
And she was very welcoming, andshe explained that she would show
(31:01):
us the house, even though it'snot open to the public, really.
It's a private residence, but it's a bigplace and she rents part of it as a gîte.
Kim Loftus (31:10):
And it's for sale.
Annie Sargent (31:11):
Yes.
Kim Loftus (31:12):
The next time someone goes there, may be opened as something
more public, or maybe not at all.
Annie Sargent (31:18):
Yep.
I thought it was a gorgeous house,like a very typical old French house
with a lot of beautiful staircases,beautiful doors, beautiful rooms
with high ceilings, exposed beams.
Kim Loftus (31:30):
And I think of it, it's like, it was constructed in two phases.
The older part, where I think Cadillacwould have lived, is in the back, and
it's a typical, I read it, they referredto it as a mansion, or an estate.
So it's like a square shaped building witha courtyard in the middle or a garden.
And then the front, which was constructedalmost a century later, repeated that same
(31:53):
pattern, but connected the two sections.
And one faces the street.
So on the street side where weentered, there is a plaque that talks
about the history of the buildingand how it was built in two phases.
But when you, and you walk through whatwould have been like a carriage entryway,
that big arched cobblestone entryway.
(32:13):
And that's the newer part of thebuilding, which was 18th century.
And to go upstairs was that grandstaircase, and there was a private
apartment up there that she was ableto show us with permission from the
owner who wasn't home, and we wanderedthrough that, and there is an alcove
in a room, that they, the owner saidthey thought that that was possibly
(32:36):
where Cadillac may have, this might havebeen his private apartment and died.
But then when I read the plaqueoutside, that's the new, that would have
been constructed after he was there.
Her private apartment was in the backthat she did take us in, it actually
did look older and it overlookedthe beautiful courtyard and it had a
square tower in one of the corners,which her bedroom was off of.
(32:59):
And there was a private chapelin that tower off the bedroom.
I think that's probably morelikely where he would have
occupied his own private apartment.
Annie Sargent (33:09):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Although it's pretty clear from the bookthat he wasn't very religious himself.
He had kind of badrelationship with the Jesuits.
So, you know, I mean, at thetime you had to bow to them,
but you didn't play along a lot.
I doubt he was the kind that wouldspend a lot of time in that chapel.
But there is a veryinteresting private chapel.
(33:31):
It's very small.
And it has this interesting window whereyou can see out, but they cannot see in.
Kim Loftus (33:38):
Right, and it's plain on the outside that faces the courtyard,
but it's brilliant colors on the inside.
And I looked up, the religiouswars would have been well before
that was constructed, but his wifewas very religious, so perhaps
he had that put in place for her.
I think the decoration is from the BelleEpoque era, late 1800s Victorian era.
(34:00):
But it still was, it was fun becauseshe pulled back this drape and there
was a door, and then you went in thislittle chapel that's painted and it
hasn't been touched in a long time.
And even the items on thealtar were from that era.
It was just like, wow, it's very cool.
Annie Sargent (34:17):
Yes, yes.
And we got to see all thisjust because I asked them.
It was just asking, you know, can we?
Of course, they don't speak English,really, but they were very interested
in having American visitors showinterest in this area, because
that doesn't happen every day.
And she is trying to sell the house,so she's like, oh, maybe some rich
American will show up and buy this.
Kim Loftus (34:37):
Yeah, I think.
I wondered because it's for sale, it wasfor half a million euro, was the price
tag because it's a very large property.
But then the Cadillac Museum too isalso trying to raise money to renovate.
The Cadillac Museum, I forgot tomention that, one of the things that
I thought was fascinating is that thecourtyard behind the house is a Michigan
(35:02):
Historic Site plaque, which is the onlyone outside of the state of Michigan.
And on one side it's in Englishand one side it's in French.
And that was installed in 1984.
But the museum ran a fundraiser in '72,and the Detroit Historical Society and
Commission gave them 20000 in '72 to buythe house and establish that as a museum.
(35:25):
But they now need another investmentbecause they need to upgrade it.
They want to enhance thatcourtyard, and I think she said
install public restrooms in there.
It's a village, so thereprobably aren't any.
Annie Sargent (35:38):
Yeah.
So the Historical Society ofMichigan actually raised the
funds, bought the house, andthen deeded it back to the city.
So now the house belongs to the city.
They did a lot of improvementsand the museum looks really nice.
If you are in the area and you'reinterested in visiting it, I
(35:59):
would definitely call ahead oftime to make sure it's open.
Don't believe what itsays on their website.
It lies.
Kim Loftus (36:06):
It's too small.
It's just so small.
Annie Sargent (36:08):
They don't update the website very much, so just call, okay?
You have to be proactive like that.
But they are very happy to havevisitors and to open it up.
Now, in July and August it's apretty good bet that it will be open
most days, because it's actuallytwo interns that keep it open.
The department, or the region, I'm notsure, has funding to pay interns to
(36:33):
open monuments like this that are notopen to the public the rest of the year.
And so that's why it's openevery day in July and August.
But the rest, that's becausethe interns are there.
And the interns, you know, theydon't know as much about the history.
But there are a lot of signs and thingsthat you can read that explain the story.
But the lady who gave us the private tourwas quite, she was very good, I thought.
Kim Loftus (36:56):
I was going to say, I would recommend that someone call that main
number and request Madame Jacquelineand she was very knowledgeable.
I think she explained shewas a retired teacher.
She lives in this village now, but Idon't think she always has, but she
knows his story and is very passionateabout talking about life at that time.
(37:17):
And she utilizes everything inthe museum to tell that story.
They talk about not only his life,but what it was like in New France,
why France was interested in theresources in what was then France,
which is Canada, and parts of theGreat Lakes region, where I'm from.
So she does a really, she has a verypassionate way of telling her story and
(37:39):
engaging you, and you can tell lots ofher visitors probably are school groups,
because they have a lot of things theyuse to talk with kids about how a kid
their age may have lived in the house andwhat they would have done with different
items that, you know, looking at them,you would wonder, like, what is that?
But that's part of the fun, is exploringwhat did people need in their home
(38:01):
at that time to survive and get by.
Annie Sargent (38:03):
Yeah, she explained that she was a history teacher, history and
geography teacher, but retired, andbecause her daughter lives in Toulouse,
she wanted to be close to her daughter,and so she moved to the village of
Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave, and hasbeen very interested in the history
of the village, and she's very good.
(38:23):
Jacqueline was her name, huh?
Yes.
Kim Loftus (38:25):
Her name was Danielle Jacqueline.
Annie Sargent (38:27):
Danielle Jacqueline, okay.
Kim Loftus (38:29):
The Mayor was Monsieur Labouchet.
Annie Sargent (38:31):
He was also very, he had a beautiful Gascon, kind of facial hair,
like a little goatee and a mustache.
Yeah, he was very Gascon looking.
Kim Loftus (38:42):
I would say, you know, to me as an American, he
was a very elegant Frenchman.
Annie Sargent (38:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And everybody was lovely.
I mean, honestly, a cute village.
This is the sort of placethat's not super showy.
I wouldn't say to everybody whocomes visit Toulouse, oh, you must
go visit this place, it's amazing,you know, nothing like that.
But it is very interesting andthe people are super friendly.
Kim Loftus (39:04):
Yeah, and there's a lot there.
Like we were just there for a fewhours, but it's on the Confluence
of the Garonne and Tarn Rivers.
When I was on the website, after Igot home, it looks like there's a
lot of outdoor activities becauseit's on the water and it's a very
nature environmental setting.
So if you like to hike andkayak, you can do that there.
Annie Sargent (39:24):
Yeah, it's ideal for people who want to go camping, and
just have an inexpensive vacation ina French village, that's going to be
friendly and interesting with kids.
We also went to, so thecity of Castelsarrasin is a
little bit bigger, very cute.
Like it's the same, it'sreally cute, really friendly.
If you wanted to spend some time thereto explore, it would be a good place.
(39:48):
I think for people who don't havea big budget, but just want to hang
for a week, I think it would be funto just look around, take hikes,
take bike rides, things like that.
That's the sort ofactivities you can do there.
Kim Loftus (40:00):
Well, I love these smaller villages, and you can make it a day, or
you could spend a night and explore, likethese three places over two days because
there's wonderful places to eat, there'sinteresting things to explore, you can
take it at your own pace, you can do someoutdoors things as well as indoor things.
And even, I thought it was interestingthat Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave seems to
(40:22):
have more interesting historic things thanCastelsarrasin, even though it's bigger.
We didn't go, but there is a museumdedicated to the pioneer of modern
advertising in Castelsarrasin, FerminBousset, and he did a lot of really iconic
ads for, I think, chocolate and somebiscuits, at that time, that we still,
(40:47):
they sell the reproductions of them.
And there's a museum dedicated to him.
I don't know if he designed thatbuilding there, but that's what I love.
Like there's these little thingslike, oh, if I'd only known.
Stay for a night, you could be,you might find it the next day,
you could go back before you leave.
Annie Sargent (41:03):
Yeah.
Kim Loftus (41:03):
Moissac too, it's like there's so much probably to do, but
that Abbey and the cloisters, and thenthat outdoor Café, that's really all
we had time for, there's plenty more.
Annie Sargent (41:15):
Moissac is a beautiful place.
The abbey is spectacular.
And there are a lot of pilgrims thatcome through Moissac, so they have a
lot of accommodations, again some verynice and some very cheap, but I think
it's, I mean, Moissac is, did we everdo an episode about Moissac per se?
We might have.
Kim Loftus (41:35):
What's so nice about this area is, you could stay in
Toulouse, we did a day trip to,originally, it was just destined for
two cities, Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Graveand Castelsarrasin.
Ended up with more time, because wecouldn't go to the museum that first
trip, we ended up in Moissac for a bit.
And then there was that pilgrimagesite up on a hill with saint Mary.
(41:55):
Oh, I forgot about that, too.
Like, it was a beautiful viewthat day, and the flowers were
blooming all around there.
So, you just end up with, like,all these things to explore, and
that's what I love about France.
And it's like, you can stay central,but all around the area, another
city, if I was going to go back,Montauban is another interesting
(42:16):
looking city nearby in that same area.
The more you look up things, themore you find there is to do that
you didn't get to do that one trip.
Annie Sargent (42:25):
Yeah, so we did episode 354.
I named it 'What's special about Moissac'.
And Montauban, we've doneone about Montauban as well.
And I was just in Montauban justlast week with another day trip
that I did with three people.
Montauban was episode 348.
It's a really cute town.
So in the episode, I was alittle bit down on it saying, you
(42:48):
know, they were in the middle ofrenovations, everything was closed.
It didn't go well.
Because I went to visit it just beforewe recorded, just so I would remember.
Because you have to understand,I have been going to
Montauban since I was a child.
My very close first cousins live there.
And so, we would go sometimes everyweekend to spend, you know, to have
lunch with them on a Sunday or something.
(43:08):
So to me, it felt like I knewit well, but I didn't really.
So I went back and it was,that day was not good.
It was, everything wasclosed, blah, blah, blah.
So I told my cousin, I'm like,you know, it sucks really.
It's just like, no, no, it's not that bad,come back, and we made a whole day of it.
And we went on market day on a Saturday.
And she showed us around, andthe Place Nationale was not
(43:31):
finished yet, but it was fine.
We had a lovely day with her.
And then I went back last week.
By now, all the renovations are done.
Place Nationale is wonderful.
They put in this kind of water mirrorlike they have in Bordeaux, it's a
water feature and you have little kidsrunning through, there was a young lady
who was dancing and just having a grandtime, you know, she must have had music
(43:54):
in her head because she was reallygoing to town dancing in the water.
It's just a really cute place.
I wish we had taken the time to justsit and have a drink there, but the
people I was with wanted to keep moving.
So we did that.
We also went to theIngres Bourdelle Museum.
They have three people that were veryfamous that were born in Montauban.
(44:16):
They have Ingres, the painter,Bourdelle, the sculptor.
There's even a Bourdelle Museum in Paris.
So that tells you something, I mean,he has a Paris museum dedicated to him.
And also, Olympe de Gouges was fromMontauban, and she was a revolutionary,
the feminist revolutionary, andwe also did an episode about her.
Kim Loftus (44:36):
I was reading about Montauban and all these great
people who are from there.
For me, like, historic persons areso interesting, and I love Ingres
paintings, and his story is interesting.
I was like, yeah, that's asomeday go to visit city.
Annie Sargent (44:51):
Yeah, yeah.
So Olympe de Gouges, it was episode439 and just a fascinating character.
I wish they had more aboutOlympe de Gouges in Montauban.
They have a theater named afterher and right across from it
is a mural dedicated to her.
But since she was a writer, and aphilosopher, it's hard to show people,
(45:14):
you know, what do you show people?
Kim Loftus (45:16):
Yeah.
Was she the author of'The Rights of Women'?
Annie Sargent (45:19):
Yes, yes.
And she wrote a lot of pamphlets.
She was just a really interesting person.
You know, it's a lot ofinteresting stuff to do.
And of course, you can explorethese things on your own, like
you could rent your own car.
As a matter of fact, you could go to,I think Castelsarrasin has a train,
but Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave does not.
Montauban also has a train.
(45:41):
So you could do some of them by train.
Moissac has a train as well.
But some of them you need to rent a car,or hire me to do a day trip with you
like these, you know, these groups did.
There's just never ending thingsto discover in the southwest of
France, just like the rest ofFrance, really, if we're honest.
Kim Loftus (45:59):
Well, and you didn't know, I think when we first started
talking about this, you weren't awareof Cadillac and his significance
to the region and then to Michigan.
Annie Sargent (46:07):
We don't learn about him.
Kim Loftus (46:09):
Most people know him, that name, by the car, the Cadillac
automobile, you know, when theydeveloped that automobile, they
gave that name to him because ofthe prestige of his accomplishments.
They honored him by naming the car,and the logo of the car is derived from
his coat of arms that he created fromall these family coat of arms that he
(46:32):
took some element of and made his own.
Annie Sargent (46:34):
Yeah, he made his own.
Kim Loftus (46:35):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (46:36):
In the museum, they talk about Cadillac, the car company.
And I've since found out that theydon't sell Cadillacs in France.
I don't know if they ever did, butnow they're selling the new Cadillac
Lyric, the electric Cadillac in France.
And so it's a bit expensive.
Kim Loftus (46:53):
Oh yeah.
Well, they're a top ofthe line automobile.
Annie Sargent (46:56):
Yeah, I think it's like 70,000 Euros.
And I have a perfectly fine electriccar already so I don't need a new one.
But when I do, I might look at theCadillac Lyric because it looks fabulous.
Oh, that car looks good.
Kim Loftus (47:10):
Nice.
Yeah.
My husband and I grew up in Michiganand we were like about the same age and
said, you know, we remember learningabout Michigan history, but Cadillac
was just always a name that we knew of,not necessarily knew about his history.
So that was part of the funof when I started looking
into like, who was he really?
And I have this affiliation with Franceand it's like, wow, this is perfect.
(47:34):
I'm so excited.
There's someone from, has a Michiganconnection to the places I'm going
and it made it all the more fun and...
Annie Sargent (47:42):
I'm really delighted that we went because I learned so much.
Like, this guy's interesting,you know, of his own right.
Just a very interesting person and youlearn about a lot about the history of
France and how things were done back then.
And I mean, my hat off to all thepeople who left for the Americas,
because that was difficult.
(48:04):
That was not an easything to do at the time.
All right, Kim, I thinkwe've been chatting too long.
We need to stop now, but thankyou so very much for, you know,
you've been on the bootcamp twice,we've done this day trip together.
You feel like you're familynow, so thank you very much.
Kim Loftus (48:20):
It's been great.
Thank you so much.
The day trip with you made it so easy.
I didn't have to worryabout navigating anywhere.
You were the driver,and so it was great fun.
We had some great food.
Annie Sargent (48:31):
Yep.
Yep.
It was all good.
Merci beaucoup Kim!
Kim Loftus (48:33):
Yeah.
Merci.
Au revoir.
Annie Sargent (48:43):
Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving
back and supporting the show.
Patreon supporters get new episodesas soon as they are ready and ad-free.
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes.
Patrons get more exclusive rewardsfor all their support, you can
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
(49:09):
And to support Elyse, goto patreon.com/ElysArt.
Although I don't have any new patrons towelcome this week, I'm incredibly grateful
for the continued support from all of you.
Your backing makes it possiblefor me to keep creating
content I'm passionate about.
(49:29):
Every bit of support helps the show.
And speaking of every little bit helps,now that Black Friday and Christmas are
just around the corner, if you'd liketo support the podcast and discover
some of my favorite travel products,head over to joinusinfrance.com/Amazon.
Every purchase made through this linkhelps us bringing you more great content
(49:53):
and it will not cost you anything extra.
Perhaps you could bookmark thispage so you don't forget, and
thank you for your support.
And I'm not going to be reading anyreviews of my tours this week either
because I'm recording this early, butthere are hundreds of reviews on my
tours, go to joinusinfrance.com/vmr.
(50:16):
That stands for VoiceMap Reviews.
There you go.
And I also offer two levels ofitinerary consultations on Zoom to
help you plan your trip, again, justgo to the boutique to see the details.
I'm not going to be doing that whileI'm away on my cruise, but I will
continue to do that going forward.
(50:37):
Okay, let's talk about musthave items in your bag or purse.
When exploring Paris, or France, oranywhere really, you want to balance
being prepared with staying light.
Here are the essentials that you'llneed in your bag to make the most
of your precious time on vacation.
(50:57):
First thing is a water bottle.
Staying hydrated is crucial.
Sometimes I've seen visitors who looklike they might be fainting any moment
and it might have to do with the factthat they're not drinking enough,
especially during long walks or visitsto monuments or things like that.
Paris has public water fountains.
(51:18):
They're called Wallace fountains, mostof them, some of them are other types of
water fountains, but you need to bringyour own refillable water to use them.
Just make sure it's small, no morethan half a liter, or about a pint and
keep filling it up throughout the day.
I think that's the best way to do it.
The second thing you needis a portable phone charger.
(51:40):
You're likely to use your phone a lotfor maps, photos, notes, VoiceMap, so
bring a fully charged portable powerbank to avoid running out of juice.
The third thing is a travel umbrella,or a poncho, or something because
Paris weather is unpredictable.
A compact foldable umbrella or poncho canbe a lifesaver during sudden rain showers.
(52:05):
This is not something you'llneed every day in Paris, look for
weather predictions for each day.
But it rains in Paris.
That's a fact of life.
Number four is metrotickets or transport card.
For Paris, either get a Navigo Easy Pass,it's a credit card looking thing with a
chip that you can recharge at any machine,or you can buy and validate your tickets
(52:31):
with your smartphone using the BonjourRATP app on both Android and iPhone.
So Bonjour, just like the greeting, RATP.
The app also gives you bus and metrotraffic information and route planning.
Right now, this also works onthe app called IDF Mobilités app.
(52:54):
So, IDF, Ile de France, IDF,mobilities, but it's spelled in French,
mobilités, with an es at the end.
I'm sure eventually all the navigationapps will do this, like I was saying
last week, apps are the way thewhole travel industry is going.
(53:14):
Number five, you need comfortable shoes,though technically not in your bag.
It's vital to mention, Paris isa city best explored on foot.
It's the most important travel implementyou will need is good shoes, so wear
good shoes that you can wear comfortablyto walk and stand in for hours.
(53:38):
Number six, sunglasses and sunscreen.
If you're visiting during thesunny weather, Paris' open squares
and riverbanks can be a quitebright, protect your skin and eyes
with sunscreen and sunglasses.
And I think they make very smalllittle things of sunscreen.
But in my case, I have kind of oliveskin in the summer anyway, and so for
(54:03):
me, if I just apply it in the morningusually it's sufficient, but that might
not be enough for you, so, come prepared.
Number seven, a reusable shopping bag.
This is useful for carrying anyunexpected purchases from street
markets or shops, and a foldableone will not take much space.
Number eight, ID and copy of passport.
(54:26):
Keep a photocopy of your passportin your bag in case of emergency.
Another form of ID that's evenbetter is your driver's license.
And I say driver's license because itcan be easily replaced if you should
lose it or it should get stolen.
Also a passport ID cardis a good thing to have.
(54:46):
When you order your nextpassport, remember to include
a request for a passport card.
Number nine, hand sanitizer and tissuesfor hygiene on the go, especially
when public restrooms are scarce.
And my friend Patricia, she alwayscarries a tiny little bottle of a
spray, it's a hand washing spray.
(55:08):
And so I went to the pharmacy and theysold me something liquid, it's not a
gel, it is a alcohol liquid with somedrops of scented oils and it smells
very good and it does a good job.
It's very, very small.
I think hers is like maybefive milliliters or something.
I have little circular ones of 20milliliters and you know, just a few
(55:31):
sprays on the go and you're good to go.
And you don't have thatgoopy feeling in your hands.
Other things you might want, a snack,I mean, you know, you could buy them as
well, but there are times when, you know,packing a few small snacks make sense.
I'm kind of partial to M&Ms.
I'm a terrible example, ain't I?
My thanks to podcast editorsAnne and Christian Cotovan,
(55:55):
who produced the transcripts.
Next week on the podcast, an episodeabout the other chateaus of the Loire
Valley with Paul Gulesserian, who livesin the area and has great recommendations.
And remember patrons get an ad-freeversion of this episode, click on the
link in the show notes to be like them.
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time so
(56:19):
we can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent andCopyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons, attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
This is Join Us in France, episode 515, cinq cent quinze.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, you'll get to discover theadventurous life of Antoine Laumet,
(00:36):
better known as La Mothe Cadillac, theFrench explorer who founded Detroit.
Join me and my guest KimLoftus as we delve into the
fascinating tale of his exploits,transformation, and enduring legacy.
From his humble beginnings near Toulouse,my fair city, to his impactful presence
(00:57):
in the New World, in this episode, wetake a deep dive into the captivating
adventure that shaped two continents.
What a guy, you'll see.
This podcast is supported by donorsand listeners who buy my tours and
services, including my itineraryconsult service, my GPS self-guided
tours of Paris on the VoiceMap app,or take a day trip with me around the
(01:21):
southwest of France in my electric car.
You can browse all of that at myboutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
And Patreon supporters get new episodesas soon as they are ready and ad-free.
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes.
For the magazine part of the podcast,after my chat with Kim today, I'll
(01:42):
discuss must have items you should havein your travel purse or small backpack.
Be a minimalist.
You just want the rightthings, but not too much.
Exciting news!
The booking system for the Bootcamp2025 is now officially open for patrons.
This exclusive event will take place inToulouse from May 10th to May 18th, 2025.
(02:08):
We highly recommend arriving onMay 9th and departing on May 19th,
to ensure that you don't miss anyof the fun and activities planned.
As always, this event sells outquickly, so if you're a patron, now
is the time to lock in your spot.
For everyone else, booking will opento the general listenership next week.
(02:30):
Stay tuned to the podcast, emails,and Patreon messages for update.
What's the bootcamp, you ask?
This is a 10 day immersive experienceexploring the Southwest of France,
packed with daily visits to some ofthe most beautiful and historically
significant sites in our region.
If you want to add a bit more challenge,you can also take French classes in
(02:53):
the morning at Langue Onze in Toulouse.
They offer courses at every level,from total beginner to advanced.
The language classes are optionaland separate, but I coordinate with
Langue Onze to ensure that there areno scheduling conflicts, so you can
enjoy both without missing a beat.
If you choose to do both, it'll bea true bootcamp experience, keeping
(03:17):
you busy from 9am to 9pm every day.
If you opt to not take the classes,you'll still have full day activities
on weekends, with weekday morningsfree to explore at your leisure.
The visits are conducted by Elyse inEnglish, but if you are feeling confident
and want to practice your French withme, I'll gladly respond in French.
(03:40):
Anybody who speaks to me inFrench, I respond in French.
That's how it works.
If you speak in English,I respond in English.
And if you try Spanish, good luckto you, but I will try anyway.
And of course, we'll be soaking inFrance the entire time and that always
helps with language acquisition.
One last note, this may be the finalyear Elyse joins me on the bootcamp,
(04:04):
as it is an intense experienceand it takes a lot out of her.
So if you want to experience thedynamic duo of Annie and Elyse in
person, now is the time to sign up.
(04:25):
Bonjour, Kim Loftus, and welcomeback to Join Us in France.
Kim Loftus (04:29):
Bonjour, Annie.
Merci.
Annie Sargent (04:31):
Wonderful to have you.
We are going to talk about quite the guy.
Kim Loftus (04:36):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (04:36):
And quite the story.
So there was this guy called AntoineLaumet, that's how he started, and he
was born in a small village not far fromToulouse, Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grav e.
And his dad was a judge.
In those days you purchased yourtitle to be a judge or to be anything
(04:58):
else, as a matter of fact, and so hewas like a judge under another judge.
But he was not very wealthy, but he didfine, and then one day, this Antoine
Laumet decided to go to America.
And a lot of things happened.
So tell us a little bit about whatyou know about him and why you're
so interested in this person.
Kim Loftus (05:20):
Sure.
Well, I have been a fan of French, andFrench culture and history, for as long
as I can remember back to high school.
Because I took French in high schooland college and Madame Gill, our
high school teacher, was very goodabout weaving in culture and history.
So I know I learned a little bit abouthim back then as well as other people
that I've been fascinated with foryears, but he really popped up in my
(05:44):
awareness zone about two years agowhen I was the development director
for the Historical Society of Michigan.
It's a small nonprofit in Michigan thatpromotes Michigan history education.
And so I was getting acquainted withsome of the work that they've been
doing, and I came across Cadillac's wife,Marie Therese, and found a children's
(06:05):
book, a young adult book about her,and just thought that was fascinating.
So then I wanted to learn about him.
Meanwhile, you announced in the firstbootcamp in 2023, and I had signed
up, and then I started to look, well,where are some famous people from
Michigan, especially New France?
Where did they come from?
And Cadillac, surprisingly, was born notan hour, sort of, north west of Toulouse.
(06:31):
And so I reached out toyou and said, Can we go?
And it was too latefor the first bootcamp.
So when I signed up for this year'sbootcamp 2024, it was a must.
I immediately signed up and then saidAnnie, can I book you for a trip?
Can we go to Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave?
And then amazing that Cadillacwas, his last appointment that he
(06:54):
purchased was a governor, or a mayor ofCastelsarrasin, and that's less than 15
minutes from Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave,and he supposedly was buried there.
By the time we got to the bootcampday trip, it turns out that Cadillac
probably studied in Moissac as well.
Annie Sargent (07:13):
Yeah, Moissac.
Kim Loftus (07:14):
Moissac.
That's where his father kind of worked.
There were relationships there, sothey figure there's nothing official,
but, so these three little townsrelated to the man who is credited
with founding Detroit and establishingthe first fort there in 1701.
That fort was called Fort Pontchartrain.
Those were all connected to this personof great Michigan historic significance.
(07:39):
He was in Michigan a lot, because he alsowas governor of one of the northernmost
forts, prior to 1701, Fort Michimillimac.
And he was there for several years, andthen got called back to France, convinced
them to let him come back to the NewFrance and establish the fort in Detroit.
Annie Sargent (07:59):
Yeah.
So for our day trip, we had, it wasa bit of an adventure because I had
looked ahead and saw that there'sa museum in the house where he was
born, in Saint Nicolas de la Grave.
And that the museum was openevery morning, you know,
it gave hours and whatever.
And when we showed up, it was locked.
Nobody there.
(08:20):
So that was a bit disappointing.
So we...
Kim Loftus (08:24):
Except...
Annie Sargent (08:25):
Except, yeah, go ahead, go ahead, you tell it!
Kim Loftus (08:28):
Except while we're standing there going, oh, drats, this isn't open
until July or August and we're there inMay, a man came out across the street
and started talking to Annie, and itturns out he was a descendant through
Cadillac's grandmother's side of thefamily, and he proceeded to march us
over to the tourism office, the mayor'soffice, and then the post office,
(08:49):
trying to find a key to the museum.
And he was delightful, and it wasjust wonderful to watch the animated
conversations all along the way.
He spoke such rapid French, ElizabethSaxon, who came with us, neither
of us could understand entirely theconversation, but loved being part of
Annie Sargent (09:08):
Right, so yeah, he was like, he was, oh, you must see
this, you came all this way, it'sterrible that it's closed, whatever.
And this does outline a problem that wehave in France is that a lot of the time
the people who do tourism, you know, thetourist office, things like that, they
are paid by the city, and this was a longweekend, and city employees get their long
(09:30):
weekends, which doesn't make any sense.
Because that's when peopleare likely to come visit.
Anyway, that's another whole situation.
But because we went to talk to thepeople at City Hall, I decided, and of
course we didn't quit on our day trip.
We continued on to Castelsarrasinand to Moissac that day, to do the
rest of the visit, we just hadn'tseen the museum where he was born.
(09:53):
And then I called the City Hall andleft a message, and the mayor called
me back, and said, he apologized.
He said, I'm so sorry thatnobody was there to open for
you, they should have called me.
I would have opened for you,and I said, well, we could
conceivably come back just for that.
And he said, oh, then yeah.
(10:15):
So we made a date and we went back.
And when we went back,there was the mayor.
He had invited the localhistorian to show us around.
She was delightful, didn't speakany English, but she was delightful
and she told us the whole story.
And we also both of us bought this book.
It's called Le Destin Extraordinairedu Gascon Lamothe Cadillac.
(10:38):
So The Extraordinary Destinyof the Gascon Lamothe Cadillac.
And I loved what the lady, the historiantold us about him, because she weaved
a wonderful story and it's quiteclear that this man was a man of, it
was quite a successful storyteller.
(10:59):
He weaved a lot of storieshimself, didn't he?
Kim Loftus (11:02):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (11:02):
So he decided to leave his home, Saint Nicolas de la Grave,
and he made his way to the ocean,to get on a boat to go to America.
Along the way, he had plenty of time tothink and decided that Antoine Laumet
was not quite good enough as a name, andthat he should have a better persona, and
so he took the name Lamothe because thatwas the count, that was the important
(11:26):
person right around where he lived.
And then he later took the nameCadillac because he went through
the village of Cadillac, which isa little South of Bordeaux, right?
And thus the name AntoineLaumet Lamothe Cadillac.
And she told us that along theway, on his way to the Americas,
he made a whole persona.
And where he was really smart, and thisis something I learned reading the book,
(11:50):
is that he didn't make anything from, hedidn't make things up from whole cloth.
He would base all his storieson real things, and real people.
So that, you know, if anybody checked,they would find a person with that name.
Didn't matter that he never met themand he had nothing to do with them.
He based it, so he hadreal knowledge of the area.
(12:13):
And the other thing that was reallyimportant is that he had learned how to
speak and write very good French because,back then, everybody spoke Occitan.
That was the language in mostof France, as a matter of fact.
But he had learned proper French,he could write it, he could read
it, and he could impress people.
So, when he showed up in the Americaswith his new name, it was believable.
(12:37):
His story was believablebecause he could read and write.
Kim Loftus (12:41):
And I think it's also, back then, even if someone wanted
to verify something, they'd have towrite back to France, and it would
take months, or maybe even years toget the communication back and forth.
I think he must have known that as well.
You know, people today create theirpersona or their influencer profile.
We know these sort of types ofcharacters, I guess, you get sort of
(13:03):
those modern terms, but back then theydid the same thing when they wanted
to create a life for themselves,there was lots of opportunity if
you were willing to take huge risksand go someplace considered wild.
Annie Sargent (13:16):
It was.
Kim Loftus (13:17):
And that's what he did.
Annie Sargent (13:19):
He shows up in Quebec and he meets his wife to be.
And you learned a wholebunch about her, didn't you?
Kim Loftus (13:26):
Yeah, she was an orphan early on, and so she was raised in Quebec City
by nuns at a convent school for girls.
But she had an aunt and uncle who alsolooked after her and lived in Quebec.
And I think he was in business.
And through her uncle, that's howshe was introduced to Cadillac,
and eventually was married to him.
(13:48):
I think she was 18 and hewas 29 when they got married.
And on that marriage document, that'sthe first time that the world sees his
new name and persona in its official.
And that's often part of the storyis like, we know he was born Antoine
Laumet, and then he became thiswhole other person when he was
(14:10):
29 on his marriage certificate.
Annie Sargent (14:13):
Right, and so that's the first time he signed, that's
the first document we find todaywith the name Lamothe-Cadillac.
But then, at the very end of hislife, when he was selling some of
his properties, so back in France,back in the southwest of France, the
last deed he ever signed, he signedit Antoine Laumet Lamothe-Cadillac.
(14:33):
Because he could not pull offthat weird persona in France.
Like, they knew he was Antoine Laumet.
There was no hiding it here.
So, it was really,really funny to see that.
But he still used both names to the end,you know, so really interesting guy.
Kim Loftus (14:51):
And Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave is what would have been a
village then, and it still isconsidered a village today.
Because it's a small, verysmall, but that's one of the
charming things about it.
It's like, you know, there'sthe four room Cadillac Museum.
There's the Victorian eramarketplace structure.
And then there's the church that is fromthe typical Toulouse style with the pink
(15:16):
brick and it's charming all in itself.
It's all in this little area andthen the mayor's office is in the
Richard the Lionhearted castle,or at one point it was, and now
it's a public office building.
So I thought, and the people, like thatman who came and tried to help us, and
then we went to the cafe, and it wasall, he and his, the guys, that was
(15:39):
a Friday morning I think, were havingcoffee and getting their day started,
and he was there, and there's animatedconversation going, and then he walks off.
I loved it that he came back bylater with this baguette under his
arm, and then headed home aftertrying to be our hero in a way.
Annie Sargent (15:56):
No, he was really sweet.
He was a very nice person.
Everybody in the villagewas really kind to us.
And then we moved on to Castelsarrasin,where Lamothe Cadillac finished his life.
And now, I read the wholebook and it is fascinating.
The author of the book is RenéTougeat and he did a really
good job, because it's readable.
(16:17):
A lot of these kind of historiansthat decide to take it upon
themselves to write a book don'tdo such a good job at the writing.
He did really well.
And he also really backed up all hisassertions with original documents.
And there's photos ofthe original documents.
They are a little bit hard to read becauseit's, you know, even though he spoke
and wrote good French, it's aged a bit.
Kim Loftus (16:40):
Yeah.
It's old French, right?
It's only about 83 pages, buthis primary sources are ideal to
support the points he's making.
And he also has a bibliographythat's really good.
And some of those go back, theoldest document, and that is quite
old 1895, and that was a historianin Detroit who wrote the first book,
(17:01):
probably English speaking book, Mr.
Burton.
He's known in the Detroit areastill, there's the Burton Library,
it's a historical library atthe Detroit Public Library.
Annie Sargent (17:11):
At any rate, a really fascinating life, the stuff he
did, now he was really after money.
He wanted to make it big.
He wanted to become rich.
I think that motivated a lot of peoplewho went to the Americas, honestly.
And he decided that he was going to doall sorts of trading, so they would trade
furs with the natives and sell them goods.
(17:33):
And there was, I mean, there'sa lot of shenanigans in the
book about cutting off supplies.
You know, there were differentplaces where you could buy things.
And he was very astute about, oh,I don't want them to buy from this
guy, I want them to buy from me.
So he would cut off supplies.
He made a lot of friends, but he alsomade a lot of enemies, because he was
(17:55):
doing things, I mean, he was ruthless,he was very ambitious, wanted to
make money, would think nothing aboutlying, hiding, all sorts of things,
you know, he just did a lot of things.
He also went against what theJesuits wanted him to do, because
at the time the French were sendingmissionaries to try and convert
(18:17):
the 'savages', they called them.
And all through the book,all the references to the
native peoples is savages.
It's actually shockingto see it like that.
It's like, oh, really?
These are people we're talking about.
But that's how it was.
And they really, the missionarieswanted to convert them, but
(18:38):
wanted to keep them separate.
Like they wanted a lot of them, butthey didn't want to mix with them.
And they definitely did not wantEuropean women to marry, or European
men to marry native peoples.
But that's what Lamothe wanted.
He thought, look, we need people.
We need more people.
Without people, there's no business.
Kim Loftus (18:58):
I think he also thought that if a native person and a European
married, that would be more likelythat they would remain in North
America, in New France, and establisha farm or a business and grow their
family, and it would stabilize it.
I think that was his theory, but itwas apparently not missionary approved.
Annie Sargent (19:21):
And also there's a whole thing about the Iroquois, I'm
not sure what was happening there.
Do you know very much about that?
Because they seem to be, like ruling overother tribes and at war with other tribes.
Kim Loftus (19:33):
Yeah, there was all those tribes.
There are numerous tribes (19:35):
Iroquois, Huron, Ojibwa, and probably many others,
I'm not as well versed in all those,but they also were probably, just
like anywhere else, trying to protecttheir territory, their rich trading
ground, resources, or hunting grounds.
And then as the Europeans arrived, oneof the things I read was, Cadillac was
(19:56):
really good at establishing relationshipswith the tribes, and trying to keep peace
amongst all of them, along with his troopsthat came with him, I've forgotten what,
they have a term for the group that camewith him, but he had to try to constantly
keep the peace and keep everyone happy.
So he may have had to makeagreements with one tribe, and
then it would have been another.
(20:17):
And by the time Cadillac leaves in1710, I believe, we're starting to
get into like more English is arrivingand there's more battles, especially
on the east coast for the territory.
And eventually it leads to the, whatoriginally was called the French
Indian War, and it was about Canada.
When Canada eventually lost to theEnglish, New France was no more.
Annie Sargent (20:42):
Hmm.
Kim Loftus (20:42):
That comes much later after Cadillac is done.
But it took, you know, like a centuryto lead up to the final battle that
the French lost to the English.
Annie Sargent (20:51):
Yeah, so when he started out, it was, the very first way he got
himself noticed is because he was verygood at taking notes and drawing maps.
And so he would travel looking for huntingfor furs and things like that, and he
would make notes and draw maps, and thenhe would be able to go back to Quebec,
and Quebec City, and then he could justreport and show them what he had seen.
(21:16):
And that was invaluable.
Then he made several trips back andforth to France, between Canada and
France, and when he would show up inFrance, he would go back to France,
but to Paris, not to the Southwest.
And there he could tell them astory because how would they know?
And he always told a great story aboutall the savages, and the landscapes,
(21:37):
and the riches and all of that stuff.
And he was believablebecause he had been there.
He knew a lot of things.
Imagine a world with no TV, noradios, no nothing, no entertainment.
And you have some guy who shows upand you can tell you tales of the Wild
West and Canada and places like that.
I mean, they loved him.
They ate it up.
Yeah.
Kim Loftus (21:59):
It's very interesting when he grew up, you know, in this little
village, maybe went to the nearby schools.
That's probably where he learned French,but he must have been incredibly eloquent
and smart because of his ability toconvince people, be persuasive, tell
these stories, knew what they wanted tohear, because he had audiences with Louis
(22:20):
XIV, and the Minister of the Marine,who gave him ships to go back and forth,
and resources and assigned men to him.
It's just fascinating thathe was able to do all this.
Annie Sargent (22:31):
Right, he kept being promoted.
So he started out small, but thenhe ended up, being the top guy,
even though there were a lot ofpeople, even at his time were saying,
you know what, this guy is fishy.
He's awfully greedy and he doesthings that we don't approve of.
But still, you know, he wasdoing a good enough job that
they let him get away with it.
(22:52):
And it's incredible that he took 50soldiers and 50 savages, as he called
them, and they decided to make theirway to Detroit, from Quebec, with
canoes and everything on their backs.
And when they arrived, itwas early July, I think.
So they left, oh yeah, they lefton June 5th and they arrived
(23:14):
around July 20th, more or less.
And they knew that they had toestablish something, you know, they
had to do something before it gotsuper cold, and they worked very,
very hard and survived the winter.
And one of the things that made lifedifficult for a lot of the people
who, a lot of the Europeans who wentto the Americas, is that they were a
(23:37):
bit stubborn and they wanted to growthe same kind of crops that they were
used to in Europe and it didn't work.
And he was more willingto learn from the locals.
And so they were able to quicklyhave some crops and survive.
Because I mean, you know, if you haveno food, it's over kind of quickly.
Kim Loftus (23:56):
Right.
And I think they utilized, they took greatadvantage of the fur trade, which allowed
them to trade with the native peoples andthen send those materials back to France.
And so they kept showing the king andthe other leaders of the government how
well off this area was, and that there'sresources here that would benefit France.
Annie Sargent (24:19):
Yeah.
But that's why they, you know, itwas greed, they want to take over.
I mean, there's no question about that.
So then, we're going to go move throughthis quickly, then he was no longer
welcome in the Detroit area because hehad just annoyed a few too many people,
and it got to the point where, you know...
And another thing that he did that wascompletely against the rules is that he
(24:40):
would happily sell alcohol to the nativetribes, which was not okay by the French
king, but he did it anyway, because that'swhat he could easily sell and trade.
And of course, he poisoned them.
It was just, he was ruthless, I mean,he would do whatever to advance.
Kim Loftus (24:58):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (24:59):
Like anything, he would do anything.
So eventually he leavesCanada to come back to France.
Well, he leaves Canada, Detroit, Iguess we should call it at this point.
I mean, it wasn't yet the US.
Kim Loftus (25:15):
He went back, they recalled him, I think is what I remember.
He, the king or the minister of theMarines said, come back here, we've
got to investigate what's happening.
And that was around 1710.
And this is where he was so persuasive.
Instead of getting in trouble, hebecomes appointed governor of Louisiana.
Which was a new, anotherterritory of France, and it
(25:38):
was uninhabited at that point.
But he wasn't happy about that.
Annie Sargent (25:42):
No.
No.
So yes, they removed him fromthe Detroit area because he was a
pain and called him back to Paris.
Didn't know what to do with him.
And they decided, okay, we'regoing to stick him with Louisiana.
Like you said, it was very inhospitable.
There were no people there.
He did business with a guyin Toulouse called Crozat.
(26:04):
So we still have a bigCrozat family in Toulouse.
They own a lot of businesses, buthe robbed him blind because he just
told him a, you know, song and danceabout all the things that they
were going to find in Louisiana.
He had never set foot inLouisiana himself, so he
knew nothing, but he sold it.
He really, really sold it.
And he raised money and once hegot there, he realized, ooh, uh...
Kim Loftus (26:27):
He did not like it.
Annie Sargent (26:28):
No, he did not like it.
He didn't want to stay.
At the same time, the king wasalso doing a very unethical kind
of business transaction, where hewould sell to hopefuls who wanted
a piece of the Louisiana fortune.
Gold mines and you know, wealthuntold, he would sell them shares.
(26:51):
And they feared that if he, whenhe came back to France, having
seen Louisiana, he would openhis yap and kind of, you know...
Kim Loftus (27:00):
Yeah, because I think he said it like it was sometimes.
Annie Sargent (27:03):
Yes, he sure did.
And so they, when he and his soncame back from Louisiana, they
just put him in the Bastille, forabout six months to shut him up.
Kim Loftus (27:12):
That was in 1717.
He and his son, who is now a young man,were there for six months until they got
everything cleared and then it was like,okay, let him out because he won't, it
won't interfere with our plans anymore.
Annie Sargent (27:25):
Right.
And so he goes back to the Southwest,having bought a appointment as the
governor of Castelsarrasin, which is thebigger town next to where he was born.
And he didn't like it that much.
So he kept going back to Paris.
He spent most of his time in Paris.
His wife, however, stayed inSaint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave.
(27:47):
And she was like, I'm done with you.
I'm staying here.
Kim Loftus (27:50):
And they had a daughter by then who was married and grandchildren.
Annie Sargent (27:53):
Yeah.
Kim Loftus (27:54):
Like an extended family.
Annie Sargent (27:56):
Yes.
Yes.
And this is a family that was abit complicated because one of the
reasons why he left France is becausehis older brother was suing his
parents for some sort of inheritance.
There was a lot of badblood in the family.
You know, these are not people who aregetting along, you know, no, no, no, no.
And so he wasn't so sure that hewanted to be back in the Southwest,
(28:20):
but that's where he had connections.
You know, he was getting older, and hewas like, well, I got connections here,
and so he ended up going to the Southwest.
There's one point at the end of the bookwhere they explained that his daughter
was getting married in Castelsarrasin,but he did not attend the wedding
because he was in Paris and he didn'twant to come back for the wedding.
(28:42):
And a little bit later, he had to comeback, a few days after that, well,
maybe a few weeks after that, he hadto come back to sign some sell of
something or other, and that's the onetime, that's the last time we see him
signing Antoine Laumet Lamothe Cadillac.
And that's on the occasion of thattrip that he died in the house.
So it said, what we heard wasthat he died in the house that had
(29:06):
been appointed to the governor.
Right?
Kim Loftus (29:09):
L'Hotel Bouvinard.
Annie Sargent (29:10):
Which was a beautiful home in Castelsarrasin that we got to visit.
But according to the book,it's not clear where he died.
The book doesn't make it very clear.
And the book also explains thatthey're not sure where he's buried.
We tried to find his grave.
We drove around trying to find his grave.
Kim Loftus (29:28):
There are several resources that say he was buried at the cemetery
of a Carmelite church, and there's likea tower left, and so we had two different
locations and ended up in, one was anorchard, and one was a private residence.
It didn't look like it was everanything else, so where he's
buried is a bit of a mystery.
Annie Sargent (29:48):
At the end of the book, the author says that they were trying to find
his grave as well, because it says, justlike his parents, he was buried at the
Église des Carmes, so the Carmes Church inthe city, which it's not a church anymore.
And that they dug up this old area a fewyears ago, looking for bones that they
(30:11):
could test, they could do DNA testing.
And they thought they were close tofinding the right bones, but there
was a violation of the sepulchre.
Kim Loftus (30:21):
I read that, too.
Annie Sargent (30:22):
And they stopped digging.
Kim Loftus (30:23):
They weren't allowed to continue.
Annie Sargent (30:25):
Right.
So, we don't know.
Kim Loftus (30:26):
It was fun to try to find it, because we ended up in parts of
the village, like I said, we drovethrough that orchard and it was lovely,
and it was early spring, but we werelike, I don't think this is a cemetery.
Annie Sargent (30:38):
No, it wasn't.
No, it wasn't.
So it was an interesting day, and wetalked to some lovely people, and we
saw some lovely things, and we had togo back to the house where he was living
because that was also pretty funny.
The lady, so I had contacted her aswell, and so we knocked on the door and
I introduced myself and said, I'm theone who left your message, whatever.
And she was very welcoming, andshe explained that she would show
(31:01):
us the house, even though it'snot open to the public, really.
It's a private residence, but it's a bigplace and she rents part of it as a gîte.
Kim Loftus (31:10):
And it's for sale.
Annie Sargent (31:11):
Yes.
Kim Loftus (31:12):
The next time someone goes there, may be opened as something
more public, or maybe not at all.
Annie Sargent (31:18):
Yep.
I thought it was a gorgeous house,like a very typical old French house
with a lot of beautiful staircases,beautiful doors, beautiful rooms
with high ceilings, exposed beams.
Kim Loftus (31:30):
And I think of it, it's like, it was constructed in two phases.
The older part, where I think Cadillacwould have lived, is in the back, and
it's a typical, I read it, they referredto it as a mansion, or an estate.
So it's like a square shaped building witha courtyard in the middle or a garden.
And then the front, which was constructedalmost a century later, repeated that same
(31:53):
pattern, but connected the two sections.
And one faces the street.
So on the street side where weentered, there is a plaque that talks
about the history of the buildingand how it was built in two phases.
But when you, and you walk through whatwould have been like a carriage entryway,
that big arched cobblestone entryway.
(32:13):
And that's the newer part of thebuilding, which was 18th century.
And to go upstairs was that grandstaircase, and there was a private
apartment up there that she was ableto show us with permission from the
owner who wasn't home, and we wanderedthrough that, and there is an alcove
in a room, that they, the owner saidthey thought that that was possibly
(32:36):
where Cadillac may have, this might havebeen his private apartment and died.
But then when I read the plaqueoutside, that's the new, that would have
been constructed after he was there.
Her private apartment was in the backthat she did take us in, it actually
did look older and it overlookedthe beautiful courtyard and it had a
square tower in one of the corners,which her bedroom was off of.
(32:59):
And there was a private chapelin that tower off the bedroom.
I think that's probably morelikely where he would have
occupied his own private apartment.
Annie Sargent (33:09):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Although it's pretty clear from the bookthat he wasn't very religious himself.
He had kind of badrelationship with the Jesuits.
So, you know, I mean, at thetime you had to bow to them,
but you didn't play along a lot.
I doubt he was the kind that wouldspend a lot of time in that chapel.
But there is a veryinteresting private chapel.
(33:31):
It's very small.
And it has this interesting window whereyou can see out, but they cannot see in.
Kim Loftus (33:38):
Right, and it's plain on the outside that faces the courtyard,
but it's brilliant colors on the inside.
And I looked up, the religiouswars would have been well before
that was constructed, but his wifewas very religious, so perhaps
he had that put in place for her.
I think the decoration is from the BelleEpoque era, late 1800s Victorian era.
(34:00):
But it still was, it was fun becauseshe pulled back this drape and there
was a door, and then you went in thislittle chapel that's painted and it
hasn't been touched in a long time.
And even the items on thealtar were from that era.
It was just like, wow, it's very cool.
Annie Sargent (34:17):
Yes, yes.
And we got to see all thisjust because I asked them.
It was just asking, you know, can we?
Of course, they don't speak English,really, but they were very interested
in having American visitors showinterest in this area, because
that doesn't happen every day.
And she is trying to sell the house,so she's like, oh, maybe some rich
American will show up and buy this.
Kim Loftus (34:37):
Yeah, I think.
I wondered because it's for sale, it wasfor half a million euro, was the price
tag because it's a very large property.
But then the Cadillac Museum too isalso trying to raise money to renovate.
The Cadillac Museum, I forgot tomention that, one of the things that
I thought was fascinating is that thecourtyard behind the house is a Michigan
(35:02):
Historic Site plaque, which is the onlyone outside of the state of Michigan.
And on one side it's in Englishand one side it's in French.
And that was installed in 1984.
But the museum ran a fundraiser in '72,and the Detroit Historical Society and
Commission gave them 20000 in '72 to buythe house and establish that as a museum.
(35:25):
But they now need another investmentbecause they need to upgrade it.
They want to enhance thatcourtyard, and I think she said
install public restrooms in there.
It's a village, so thereprobably aren't any.
Annie Sargent (35:38):
Yeah.
So the Historical Society ofMichigan actually raised the
funds, bought the house, andthen deeded it back to the city.
So now the house belongs to the city.
They did a lot of improvementsand the museum looks really nice.
If you are in the area and you'reinterested in visiting it, I
(35:59):
would definitely call ahead oftime to make sure it's open.
Don't believe what itsays on their website.
It lies.
Kim Loftus (36:06):
It's too small.
It's just so small.
Annie Sargent (36:08):
They don't update the website very much, so just call, okay?
You have to be proactive like that.
But they are very happy to havevisitors and to open it up.
Now, in July and August it's apretty good bet that it will be open
most days, because it's actuallytwo interns that keep it open.
The department, or the region, I'm notsure, has funding to pay interns to
(36:33):
open monuments like this that are notopen to the public the rest of the year.
And so that's why it's openevery day in July and August.
But the rest, that's becausethe interns are there.
And the interns, you know, theydon't know as much about the history.
But there are a lot of signs and thingsthat you can read that explain the story.
But the lady who gave us the private tourwas quite, she was very good, I thought.
Kim Loftus (36:56):
I was going to say, I would recommend that someone call that main
number and request Madame Jacquelineand she was very knowledgeable.
I think she explained shewas a retired teacher.
She lives in this village now, but Idon't think she always has, but she
knows his story and is very passionateabout talking about life at that time.
(37:17):
And she utilizes everything inthe museum to tell that story.
They talk about not only his life,but what it was like in New France,
why France was interested in theresources in what was then France,
which is Canada, and parts of theGreat Lakes region, where I'm from.
So she does a really, she has a verypassionate way of telling her story and
(37:39):
engaging you, and you can tell lots ofher visitors probably are school groups,
because they have a lot of things theyuse to talk with kids about how a kid
their age may have lived in the house andwhat they would have done with different
items that, you know, looking at them,you would wonder, like, what is that?
But that's part of the fun, is exploringwhat did people need in their home
(38:01):
at that time to survive and get by.
Annie Sargent (38:03):
Yeah, she explained that she was a history teacher, history and
geography teacher, but retired, andbecause her daughter lives in Toulouse,
she wanted to be close to her daughter,and so she moved to the village of
Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave, and hasbeen very interested in the history
of the village, and she's very good.
(38:23):
Jacqueline was her name, huh?
Yes.
Kim Loftus (38:25):
Her name was Danielle Jacqueline.
Annie Sargent (38:27):
Danielle Jacqueline, okay.
Kim Loftus (38:29):
The Mayor was Monsieur Labouchet.
Annie Sargent (38:31):
He was also very, he had a beautiful Gascon, kind of facial hair,
like a little goatee and a mustache.
Yeah, he was very Gascon looking.
Kim Loftus (38:42):
I would say, you know, to me as an American, he
was a very elegant Frenchman.
Annie Sargent (38:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And everybody was lovely.
I mean, honestly, a cute village.
This is the sort of placethat's not super showy.
I wouldn't say to everybody whocomes visit Toulouse, oh, you must
go visit this place, it's amazing,you know, nothing like that.
But it is very interesting andthe people are super friendly.
Kim Loftus (39:04):
Yeah, and there's a lot there.
Like we were just there for a fewhours, but it's on the Confluence
of the Garonne and Tarn Rivers.
When I was on the website, after Igot home, it looks like there's a
lot of outdoor activities becauseit's on the water and it's a very
nature environmental setting.
So if you like to hike andkayak, you can do that there.
Annie Sargent (39:24):
Yeah, it's ideal for people who want to go camping, and
just have an inexpensive vacation ina French village, that's going to be
friendly and interesting with kids.
We also went to, so thecity of Castelsarrasin is a
little bit bigger, very cute.
Like it's the same, it'sreally cute, really friendly.
If you wanted to spend some time thereto explore, it would be a good place.
(39:48):
I think for people who don't havea big budget, but just want to hang
for a week, I think it would be funto just look around, take hikes,
take bike rides, things like that.
That's the sort ofactivities you can do there.
Kim Loftus (40:00):
Well, I love these smaller villages, and you can make it a day, or
you could spend a night and explore, likethese three places over two days because
there's wonderful places to eat, there'sinteresting things to explore, you can
take it at your own pace, you can do someoutdoors things as well as indoor things.
And even, I thought it was interestingthat Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave seems to
(40:22):
have more interesting historic things thanCastelsarrasin, even though it's bigger.
We didn't go, but there is a museumdedicated to the pioneer of modern
advertising in Castelsarrasin, FerminBousset, and he did a lot of really iconic
ads for, I think, chocolate and somebiscuits, at that time, that we still,
(40:47):
they sell the reproductions of them.
And there's a museum dedicated to him.
I don't know if he designed thatbuilding there, but that's what I love.
Like there's these little thingslike, oh, if I'd only known.
Stay for a night, you could be,you might find it the next day,
you could go back before you leave.
Annie Sargent (41:03):
Yeah.
Kim Loftus (41:03):
Moissac too, it's like there's so much probably to do, but
that Abbey and the cloisters, and thenthat outdoor Café, that's really all
we had time for, there's plenty more.
Annie Sargent (41:15):
Moissac is a beautiful place.
The abbey is spectacular.
And there are a lot of pilgrims thatcome through Moissac, so they have a
lot of accommodations, again some verynice and some very cheap, but I think
it's, I mean, Moissac is, did we everdo an episode about Moissac per se?
We might have.
Kim Loftus (41:35):
What's so nice about this area is, you could stay in
Toulouse, we did a day trip to,originally, it was just destined for
two cities, Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Graveand Castelsarrasin.
Ended up with more time, because wecouldn't go to the museum that first
trip, we ended up in Moissac for a bit.
And then there was that pilgrimagesite up on a hill with saint Mary.
(41:55):
Oh, I forgot about that, too.
Like, it was a beautiful viewthat day, and the flowers were
blooming all around there.
So, you just end up with, like,all these things to explore, and
that's what I love about France.
And it's like, you can stay central,but all around the area, another
city, if I was going to go back,Montauban is another interesting
(42:16):
looking city nearby in that same area.
The more you look up things, themore you find there is to do that
you didn't get to do that one trip.
Annie Sargent (42:25):
Yeah, so we did episode 354.
I named it 'What's special about Moissac'.
And Montauban, we've doneone about Montauban as well.
And I was just in Montauban justlast week with another day trip
that I did with three people.
Montauban was episode 348.
It's a really cute town.
So in the episode, I was alittle bit down on it saying, you
(42:48):
know, they were in the middle ofrenovations, everything was closed.
It didn't go well.
Because I went to visit it just beforewe recorded, just so I would remember.
Because you have to understand,I have been going to
Montauban since I was a child.
My very close first cousins live there.
And so, we would go sometimes everyweekend to spend, you know, to have
lunch with them on a Sunday or something.
(43:08):
So to me, it felt like I knewit well, but I didn't really.
So I went back and it was,that day was not good.
It was, everything wasclosed, blah, blah, blah.
So I told my cousin, I'm like,you know, it sucks really.
It's just like, no, no, it's not that bad,come back, and we made a whole day of it.
And we went on market day on a Saturday.
And she showed us around, andthe Place Nationale was not
(43:31):
finished yet, but it was fine.
We had a lovely day with her.
And then I went back last week.
By now, all the renovations are done.
Place Nationale is wonderful.
They put in this kind of water mirrorlike they have in Bordeaux, it's a
water feature and you have little kidsrunning through, there was a young lady
who was dancing and just having a grandtime, you know, she must have had music
(43:54):
in her head because she was reallygoing to town dancing in the water.
It's just a really cute place.
I wish we had taken the time to justsit and have a drink there, but the
people I was with wanted to keep moving.
So we did that.
We also went to theIngres Bourdelle Museum.
They have three people that were veryfamous that were born in Montauban.
(44:16):
They have Ingres, the painter,Bourdelle, the sculptor.
There's even a Bourdelle Museum in Paris.
So that tells you something, I mean,he has a Paris museum dedicated to him.
And also, Olympe de Gouges was fromMontauban, and she was a revolutionary,
the feminist revolutionary, andwe also did an episode about her.
Kim Loftus (44:36):
I was reading about Montauban and all these great
people who are from there.
For me, like, historic persons areso interesting, and I love Ingres
paintings, and his story is interesting.
I was like, yeah, that's asomeday go to visit city.
Annie Sargent (44:51):
Yeah, yeah.
So Olympe de Gouges, it was episode439 and just a fascinating character.
I wish they had more aboutOlympe de Gouges in Montauban.
They have a theater named afterher and right across from it
is a mural dedicated to her.
But since she was a writer, and aphilosopher, it's hard to show people,
(45:14):
you know, what do you show people?
Kim Loftus (45:16):
Yeah.
Was she the author of'The Rights of Women'?
Annie Sargent (45:19):
Yes, yes.
And she wrote a lot of pamphlets.
She was just a really interesting person.
You know, it's a lot ofinteresting stuff to do.
And of course, you can explorethese things on your own, like
you could rent your own car.
As a matter of fact, you could go to,I think Castelsarrasin has a train,
but Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave does not.
Montauban also has a train.
(45:41):
So you could do some of them by train.
Moissac has a train as well.
But some of them you need to rent a car,or hire me to do a day trip with you
like these, you know, these groups did.
There's just never ending thingsto discover in the southwest of
France, just like the rest ofFrance, really, if we're honest.
Kim Loftus (45:59):
Well, and you didn't know, I think when we first started
talking about this, you weren't awareof Cadillac and his significance
to the region and then to Michigan.
Annie Sargent (46:07):
We don't learn about him.
Kim Loftus (46:09):
Most people know him, that name, by the car, the Cadillac
automobile, you know, when theydeveloped that automobile, they
gave that name to him because ofthe prestige of his accomplishments.
They honored him by naming the car,and the logo of the car is derived from
his coat of arms that he created fromall these family coat of arms that he
(46:32):
took some element of and made his own.
Annie Sargent (46:34):
Yeah, he made his own.
Kim Loftus (46:35):
Yeah.
Annie Sargent (46:36):
In the museum, they talk about Cadillac, the car company.
And I've since found out that theydon't sell Cadillacs in France.
I don't know if they ever did, butnow they're selling the new Cadillac
Lyric, the electric Cadillac in France.
And so it's a bit expensive.
Kim Loftus (46:53):
Oh yeah.
Well, they're a top ofthe line automobile.
Annie Sargent (46:56):
Yeah, I think it's like 70,000 Euros.
And I have a perfectly fine electriccar already so I don't need a new one.
But when I do, I might look at theCadillac Lyric because it looks fabulous.
Oh, that car looks good.
Kim Loftus (47:10):
Nice.
Yeah.
My husband and I grew up in Michiganand we were like about the same age and
said, you know, we remember learningabout Michigan history, but Cadillac
was just always a name that we knew of,not necessarily knew about his history.
So that was part of the funof when I started looking
into like, who was he really?
And I have this affiliation with Franceand it's like, wow, this is perfect.
(47:34):
I'm so excited.
There's someone from, has a Michiganconnection to the places I'm going
and it made it all the more fun and...
Annie Sargent (47:42):
I'm really delighted that we went because I learned so much.
Like, this guy's interesting,you know, of his own right.
Just a very interesting person and youlearn about a lot about the history of
France and how things were done back then.
And I mean, my hat off to all thepeople who left for the Americas,
because that was difficult.
(48:04):
That was not an easything to do at the time.
All right, Kim, I thinkwe've been chatting too long.
We need to stop now, but thankyou so very much for, you know,
you've been on the bootcamp twice,we've done this day trip together.
You feel like you're familynow, so thank you very much.
Kim Loftus (48:20):
It's been great.
Thank you so much.
The day trip with you made it so easy.
I didn't have to worryabout navigating anywhere.
You were the driver,and so it was great fun.
We had some great food.
Annie Sargent (48:31):
Yep.
Yep.
It was all good.
Merci beaucoup Kim!
Kim Loftus (48:33):
Yeah.
Merci.
Au revoir.
Annie Sargent (48:43):
Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving
back and supporting the show.
Patreon supporters get new episodesas soon as they are ready and ad-free.
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes.
Patrons get more exclusive rewardsfor all their support, you can
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
(49:09):
And to support Elyse, goto patreon.com/ElysArt.
Although I don't have any new patrons towelcome this week, I'm incredibly grateful
for the continued support from all of you.
Your backing makes it possiblefor me to keep creating
content I'm passionate about.
(49:29):
Every bit of support helps the show.
And speaking of every little bit helps,now that Black Friday and Christmas are
just around the corner, if you'd liketo support the podcast and discover
some of my favorite travel products,head over to joinusinfrance.com/Amazon.
Every purchase made through this linkhelps us bringing you more great content
(49:53):
and it will not cost you anything extra.
Perhaps you could bookmark thispage so you don't forget, and
thank you for your support.
And I'm not going to be reading anyreviews of my tours this week either
because I'm recording this early, butthere are hundreds of reviews on my
tours, go to joinusinfrance.com/vmr.
(50:16):
That stands for VoiceMap Reviews.
There you go.
And I also offer two levels ofitinerary consultations on Zoom to
help you plan your trip, again, justgo to the boutique to see the details.
I'm not going to be doing that whileI'm away on my cruise, but I will
continue to do that going forward.
(50:37):
Okay, let's talk about musthave items in your bag or purse.
When exploring Paris, or France, oranywhere really, you want to balance
being prepared with staying light.
Here are the essentials that you'llneed in your bag to make the most
of your precious time on vacation.
(50:57):
First thing is a water bottle.
Staying hydrated is crucial.
Sometimes I've seen visitors who looklike they might be fainting any moment
and it might have to do with the factthat they're not drinking enough,
especially during long walks or visitsto monuments or things like that.
Paris has public water fountains.
(51:18):
They're called Wallace fountains, mostof them, some of them are other types of
water fountains, but you need to bringyour own refillable water to use them.
Just make sure it's small, no morethan half a liter, or about a pint and
keep filling it up throughout the day.
I think that's the best way to do it.
The second thing you needis a portable phone charger.
(51:40):
You're likely to use your phone a lotfor maps, photos, notes, VoiceMap, so
bring a fully charged portable powerbank to avoid running out of juice.
The third thing is a travel umbrella,or a poncho, or something because
Paris weather is unpredictable.
A compact foldable umbrella or poncho canbe a lifesaver during sudden rain showers.
(52:05):
This is not something you'llneed every day in Paris, look for
weather predictions for each day.
But it rains in Paris.
That's a fact of life.
Number four is metrotickets or transport card.
For Paris, either get a Navigo Easy Pass,it's a credit card looking thing with a
chip that you can recharge at any machine,or you can buy and validate your tickets
(52:31):
with your smartphone using the BonjourRATP app on both Android and iPhone.
So Bonjour, just like the greeting, RATP.
The app also gives you bus and metrotraffic information and route planning.
Right now, this also works onthe app called IDF Mobilités app.
(52:54):
So, IDF, Ile de France, IDF,mobilities, but it's spelled in French,
mobilités, with an es at the end.
I'm sure eventually all the navigationapps will do this, like I was saying
last week, apps are the way thewhole travel industry is going.
(53:14):
Number five, you need comfortable shoes,though technically not in your bag.
It's vital to mention, Paris isa city best explored on foot.
It's the most important travel implementyou will need is good shoes, so wear
good shoes that you can wear comfortablyto walk and stand in for hours.
(53:38):
Number six, sunglasses and sunscreen.
If you're visiting during thesunny weather, Paris' open squares
and riverbanks can be a quitebright, protect your skin and eyes
with sunscreen and sunglasses.
And I think they make very smalllittle things of sunscreen.
But in my case, I have kind of oliveskin in the summer anyway, and so for
(54:03):
me, if I just apply it in the morningusually it's sufficient, but that might
not be enough for you, so, come prepared.
Number seven, a reusable shopping bag.
This is useful for carrying anyunexpected purchases from street
markets or shops, and a foldableone will not take much space.
Number eight, ID and copy of passport.
(54:26):
Keep a photocopy of your passportin your bag in case of emergency.
Another form of ID that's evenbetter is your driver's license.
And I say driver's license because itcan be easily replaced if you should
lose it or it should get stolen.
Also a passport ID cardis a good thing to have.
(54:46):
When you order your nextpassport, remember to include
a request for a passport card.
Number nine, hand sanitizer and tissuesfor hygiene on the go, especially
when public restrooms are scarce.
And my friend Patricia, she alwayscarries a tiny little bottle of a
spray, it's a hand washing spray.
(55:08):
And so I went to the pharmacy and theysold me something liquid, it's not a
gel, it is a alcohol liquid with somedrops of scented oils and it smells
very good and it does a good job.
It's very, very small.
I think hers is like maybefive milliliters or something.
I have little circular ones of 20milliliters and you know, just a few
(55:31):
sprays on the go and you're good to go.
And you don't have thatgoopy feeling in your hands.
Other things you might want, a snack,I mean, you know, you could buy them as
well, but there are times when, you know,packing a few small snacks make sense.
I'm kind of partial to M&Ms.
I'm a terrible example, ain't I?
My thanks to podcast editorsAnne and Christian Cotovan,
(55:55):
who produced the transcripts.
Next week on the podcast, an episodeabout the other chateaus of the Loire
Valley with Paul Gulesserian, who livesin the area and has great recommendations.
And remember patrons get an ad-freeversion of this episode, click on the
link in the show notes to be like them.
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time so
(56:19):
we can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent andCopyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons, attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
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