August 12, 2025 • 22 mins
Former Indiana State Police superintendent Doug Carter joins Kendall and Casey to talk about the new hulu docuseries "Capturing Their Killer: The Girls on the High Bridge" about the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi, Indiana.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Casey. There is a new documentary out on Hulu about
the Delphi murders. I know you have watched it, three
part docuseries. That's right by the way. It's Kenell and
Casey showing Rob Casey's here. I have now watched it.
I did in part because we have a fabulous guest
with us who knows that case very well. He is
all over that that documentary and he is the former
(00:24):
police superintendent for the state of Indiana. Doug Carter joins us. Now, Doug, Hello, Hey,
good morning to you. So have you seen the documentary?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I did. I watched it over the weekend.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Is it weird to watch a documentary on a case
that you basically knew from start to finish? Like I
think if somebody did a documentary or radio show or
our radio program, Like, what is that like to see
a documentary? I'm sure you you just pick things apart
the whole time.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Well, it was quite frankly, it was difficult.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Rob.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It was. It took me back in time almost nine
years ago, at least in February. That's what it will be.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Do you remember all the stuff well? Or is it
where things jogging your memory?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh? Absolutely, jogging my memory. There was so much to it.
There were just so much From the very beginning, I
captivated little literally captivated the planet. I mean, they were
inquiry from all over the world, so it was it
was quite an experience.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
All right. So I think one of the problems with
the Delphi case is that we didn't get to see
what went on in the courtroom, and so we were
limited to the descriptions of the people who were there
a very select amount of media. Do you think that
(01:39):
was a major issue And do you think if there
have been cameras in the courtroom people would have felt
differently about the trial?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I do, I do. I look back on that time, though, Robbit,
I think Judge gall was dealing with enormous an enormous
amount of pressure to make sure that that Richard Allen's
rights were protected, that the that the state was doing
the right thing, that the defense was going to do
the right thing, all the while there's an enormous amount
(02:05):
of noise around it, around the entire case. So I understand,
I understood then why she made that decision to maintain
some civility and control of the courtroom. But I think
probably looking back now again Hindsight's twenty twenty that single
camera in the courtroom probably would have told a different story,
(02:26):
at least to the public.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
What do you think, and you know this case as
well as just about anybody, what do you think was
the biggest thing that didn't get relayed to the public
from that trial? What do you think if there had
been cameras in the courtroom that the public didn't see
or didn't get relayed to them by the media, that
would have maybe changed some much great question.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
There was a It seems seemed to be that most
of the people that were reporting about this clickcase had
a singular focus. It wasn't necessarily objective reporting. It was
and I don't know if it was intentional. I think
with some it was, but.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Mean like they had an opinion on what happened.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
They did, they formed an opinion, but they didn't talk
about the other side. That's interesting, it really was. It
was fascinating because I would sit and listen, and then
I would watch the news later they were totally different.
It was totally totally different.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Based Okay, so you're saying based on what was going
on in the courtroom and then the way it was
being presented which that doesn't make sense because you got
a day's worth of testimony and then you got these
news guys that got to do their news hits or
their stories or whatever in you know, at best five
to ten minutes, right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Absolutely, yeah, And I'm not casting blame on them. It
was a very difficult period of time for everybody involved.
I mean many of them were there all night long
to get a seat in the courtroom. Yeah, so there
was it was a magic balance there, and it was
out of balance a little bit.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I watched the docuseries and I went through Richard Allen
was guilty, you know, he was innocent. No, he was guilty.
And there was one moment for me this sealed the deal.
And I can tell you what that is. But I
want to know about your opinion the one thing that
you hang your hat on that says, yeah, that's the bullet.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah all right, can you explain the bullet because even
the expert on the docuent series was like, look, this
isn't iron clad stuff. You need multiple people can give
you multiple different opinions on it. You and I have
talked before about this offline. What about the bullets sealed
it for you?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
And let's be specific. You're talking about the bullet that
was found.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
At the crime scene. Yes, yes, it's obviously it was
presented in the courtroom. So I'm not talking about anything
I can't. But what I explained to people now is
if you found something in your room in your home
where a crime was committed that belonged to a certain
individual that you didn't know, is it more likely than
(04:53):
not that that person was in your room? Right? Yeah,
the answer is yes. I would think to most people,
would that quarter be there, why would that dime be there?
Why would that gun be there? Why would that bullet
be there? And it was more likely than not his.
So that was a big deal to me. And again
I've never investigated a crime like this. Yeah, but I
(05:16):
felt my responsibility was to protect those that were and
let them do their job objectively. And that was a
really really big moment for me.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Did you ever did you ever sway on this? Okay?
I guess. First of all, let's go back because the
documentary and they got three hours, right, so they can't
get to everything. But it's sort of like there's this
giant time hop in the documentary to where now he's
just a suspect, Like we just fast forward through basically
years of stuff. Was he always a suspect? Was he
(05:46):
always somebody that was being looked at? What put him
back on a radar? I don't think that. I think
people still are confused about Well.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think the documentary by Hulu did a really nice
job of explaining how all that happened, because, as you know,
there was contact with Richard Allen early on, and as
simplistic as this is, it was missed. It was just simply.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Missed putting a file and getting a drawer.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And they did and they said their job.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Theirs being Richard Allens, like, well, this guy was here
the whole time, and you know, so what you're basically
saying is, yeah, that was just a mistake. It was
the logical was.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
There's no other I'm not going to spin that into
something that's not. That's just the reality. And I know
we took a lot of heat over this from you Rob.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
People. Now we talk like does he know all the things?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yes, And that's one that's one of the reasons that
I felt like I had to be as involved as
I was, and and and my job was to take
the not that it was I'm not being disrespectful. Rob.
The noise everybody else is jo noise of coming, you know,
of coming and everybody. But I understood it. I understood
(07:01):
your position. I did it. I wish I could have
come on and yeah and calmed it all down, but
I just couldn't do that at the time. I just
couldn't do that. And and it was, it was. It
was an amazing experience.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
There's Doug Carter's I guess, former state police superintendent. We're
talking about the Delphi murders. There's this very interesting new
documentary on Hulu. Is there any has there ever been
any doubt in your mind that this is the guy?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Ever?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, once he was identified.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Right right right? Never, You've never waivered, never any not?
Is there any Is there any truth to if the
judge had allowed the because a lot of people feel
like they there was. The rulings were very one sided
in favor of the prosecution. If they'd have allowed the
defense to present the odinism stuff. Do you think the
jury's mind would have been changed or would have changed
(07:52):
more people in the public. Should the judges said, look,
this is such a big case, let's just err on
the side of caution, let you have everything at your disposal.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Well, what Judge Gould did and what I would do
really aren't comparable because I didn't sit in her seat.
I think she did what she thought was right at
the time. I think if if that whole odinism issue
was presented, the outcome would have been to say.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You don't think it would have swayed the jury at all.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I don't. I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
You said you watched the docu series. What was your
impression of it, because for many people it was the
first time hearing from Richard Allen's wife.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Again, I thought they did a really nice job. I
thought it was I thought it was fair and balanced.
I thought they presented both sides. I found it very
interesting that that Andrew bald When indicated after his first
meeting with Richard Allen that he was innocent. Remember he
said that after the very first meeting when he went outside.
And again I don't hate him for that. I mean,
(08:46):
I think he tried to do what he tried to do,
and he tried to do it with as much vigor
and passion and empathy and as he could. But we
couldn't jump to those conclusions like that, and we dang
sure didn't jump to those conclusions. So the defense was
able to get information out there in the public that
we were not able to respond to. And again I'm
not complaining about that. I guess I kind of am,
because the one hundred and thirty six page document that
(09:08):
was released early on was was full of mischaracterizations about
the process and about impressions and what's factual and what's not,
and we couldn't respond to that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, they go in a little bit in the documentary.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
They do, and there's a gag order at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
What wester Fell or whatever his name was, you know,
he's all over that that. He's like, well, I don't
get that back now, Like you know, right, my name
is forever linked into this thing.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Everybody that is mentioned was investigated. It was there terabytes
of information. I think they talked about millions of pages
of documents in the documentary.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Was there anything missing from the documentary?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Oh? I think the documentary could have been eight hours
long or maybe ten hours long. But again, they found
a real magic balance there, and I hope people watch it.
I do. I listened to you, to Casey. I listened
to you that day last week, so I kind of
had an idea of what your thought was about the bullet.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Yeah, it was exactly what you said. That's what Oh
it was.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
It was people breaking news. You're in, you're in on
the jury, got it right?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Yeah, I said that the day.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Watching the let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Was it was the bullet just like Doug Carter said,
that's what's solidified.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Let's talk about that guy Relford, who's here all the time. Yes,
and I remember Guy Reliford. You might have hearved me
to say this before, but it's really, really, really important.
No one really understands the jury, like the jury. Yeah,
I sat in the jury box the day after or
the day of the guilty here the guilty verdict. They're
the ones that see the courtroom. They see the state,
(10:44):
they see the defense, they see they they watched Richard
Allen for seventeen days, a totally different perspective than everybody else. Right,
we all have kind of even me, I had a
singular focus, right, and all your listeners did had that
exact focused. So our system of justice says, if that
this would be tried by jury of your peers, yeah,
(11:06):
that happened. So either you agree with our system of
justice or you don't as imperfect as it is.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, let's take a break. Doug Carter is our guest,
former superintendent of the Indiana State Police. We're talking about
all things Delphi. This new documentary, three part documentary out
on Hulu. We're getting Doug's perspective on the Delphi murder
investigation and trial. It's Kenill Casey Show ninety three WIBCNE.
(11:39):
It's Kenel Casey Show on Robin Casey.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Here, our guest is our former stately superintendent Doug Carter.
There is a new documentary out on Hulu, three part
documentary on the Delphi murders. Doug has been kind enough
to come in obviously say, nobody knows this investigation, perhaps
better than Doug Carter. Doug has been kind enough to
give us some of his insights into the investmentation, into
the trial. So let's get back to Richard Allen, the
(12:03):
convicted murderer. One of the things that people will say
is this guy because the confessions were such a major
part and this guy was basically tortured in prison, he
wasn't himself. Was he treated fairly in prison? Should something
have been done differently?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And is there a legitimate case to say, hey, the
guy was clearly going through a lot of stuff. You
can't take a lot of weight in what he said
in prison.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Well, remember this the probable cause beyond a reasonable doubt.
It can be built over time. Yeah, it's not one
thing that he said, it's not one event that he talked.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think the ward and I don't remember his name
in the in the in the series, talked about how
he was treated there. I don't think DOC has ever
had an inmate quite like this before, particularly a pre
adjudicated inmate.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And for those who may not know what you just said,
that's for someone who has not been convicted, that's right, Yeah,
that is going to trial, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I had a detective that listened to every single com
voice or every single phone conversation that Richard Allen had
outside of the prison system, every single one, for years.
That was his job. And again, those admissions came over time.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
So it wasn't that every you're saying, And that's interesting
you're saying, it wasn't every day that he was some
rambling incoherent madness.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Oh no, not at all, No, not at all, not
at all.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
I think the wife is do you think the wife
is just naive? Do you think I don't know? Rob?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
You know Cathy is, she's a very kind person. She's
she has never caused any problem for anybody. Yeah, and
there's some empathy for her. I have empathy for her
because remember I said in twenty nineteen, the killer could
be in this room.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, when you said that, you didn't know it was
him though, right, Gosh no, because people thought that. That
is very and that's of course the famous one of
the most famous parts of this whole investigation is your
your press conference that day. You didn't know it was
him at that point.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Rob, I walked across that bridge a couple of times.
There is no way it was anybody that hadn't been
there before.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Now the bridge is totally different. And I was up
there now long ago, and I periodically and then that area.
I just go up there and walk that bridge. But
it's very different now than it.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Was creepy to do, like for you to go up
and just wow.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's actually pretty therapeutic again, really, yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I'm not trying to be like a psychiatrist here, but
tell me about that. People will find that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, I've I've lost track of the number of times
I was up there over since February of twenty seventeen,
and there's there's a certain place up there that that
frankly i'd like to I like to go up and
sit and and just think about what occurred to those
two little girls that day and how it was literally
captivated the world. And I got to say, there were
(15:01):
there were times throughout this that eight year period that
I was thinking to myself, I'm going to fail. I'm
going to fail those two little girls in this community
and all these people that have so much there's so
much relying on this, and not just me personally, but
I got to watch people just give their entire lives
to something other than themselves, and that was Abby and Libby,
and it was so amazing to watch. So to walk
(15:21):
where they walked is very therapeutic to me.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Case, I have two questions I want to make sure
we get before read along those lines.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
You've been doing this for quite a long time. Was
this the most pressure you ever felt in your career?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yes, Carroll County, Indiana was the most. The most pressure.
The floor fires haunt me to this day and that's
that's that. That's one small community has really really, really
enveloped my career, at least in my own mind.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Okay, two things I want to make sure we get
to it. One is do you believe firmly Alan acted alone?
Have you ever thought there was somebody else involved with him?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, that's it's a good question right now that that
information is not out there that that someone else did.
But as with any other capital crime, any other murder investigation,
they never close. So you know, the the truth will
set you free. I think the truth comes out over
time and we'll see. I hope one data sit down
(16:23):
with Richard Allen. I know I can't do that right
now because of the appeal, and I don't blame him
for the appeal.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
You would go meet with him.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I want to go meet with him, I do, but
I can't. I can't even reach out. I know I can't.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Would you ask what would you say to him?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Well, I have lots of questions I would ask him.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That would be like, like, not that there's anything lighthearted
about any of this, but from a pure consumption by
the public, I mean you would you would to put
that on That would be the most fascinating conversation ever.
Even see you guys sit in a room and talk with.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Each other that one day we can and he didn't
have to say one word to me, and I have
I would have plenty to say to him, And I
think I could be that voice for a lot of
people because I have. I would really like to sit
with him. I would really like to sit with Kathy
and talk about our perspectives in the last you know,
(17:19):
nearly a decade.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Okay, And obviously I don't want you to go in
too much detail on this, but I think people will
be fascinating to get your perspective on how this actually occurred,
because it's one guy with two girls, and how you
think in a radio friendly format, you think that he
was able to pull this off?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Evil lives amongst us, Rob and I do. I think
that he do. But I personally think that he had
he was going to do a B.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
C, D and E. But you don't think he was
plotting that out that day when he.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Went plotting something out?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But I'm not sure you think when he went that
day he was It was not a spur of the
moment sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Oh no, no, no, I don't think so I don't
think so.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Do you. Okay, I don't mean to veer off this.
I think people are gonna find this very interesting, Like
because he doesn't have a criminal history, so you think
there's always just like this thing inside of him and
it just snapped that day.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I do.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Do you feel like Kathy was manipulated their entire marriage?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I don't know, because they ever talked to her. I
don't know, but it does. It does seem unusual. They
talked about the blue jacket in the documentary. They talked
about the blue jeans. In the documentary, Richard Allen talked
about the blue blue jacket car jacket he had when
he said that it gave me chills.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
They did that? Had I assume you had obviously seen
all that before. I mean that, Oh yeah, that was fast.
That was fascinating.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Yeh.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Where he basically stooge done himself, which is amazing, by
the way, when he went and agreed to talk to
the investigators without an attorney or you guys just like, oh,
I mean, what was your I cannot.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
No, not really surprised by that, No, not really.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I mean, if you did it, wouldn't you be like,
oh heck, no, I'm getting, you know, the best attorney
known to man, and and you.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Know, look at it from the different perspective. I'm gonna
I'm gonna sit somewhere neutral. If I don't want an attorney,
they're gonna assume that I didn't do this.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
In the So in the mind of the criminal, they
always think they can outsmart the cops. Is that the deal? Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I think that's for general generally that's accurate rule.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, how often does that happen? A little life
advice from state former State Police of verintended Dug Carter.
How many of the criminals out smart the cops?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Not very often.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
It's got to be that element of narcissism. Yeah, that
things they can get away with the evil. But also
he worked.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
At the CVS in downtown Delphi. Yeah, there probably wasn't
a person in Delphi that didn't have some level of
interaction with you. So those are the kinds of things
I'd love to talk with him.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
So before I let you go get out of here
with this, because obviously there are people like me who
still have doubts. Soough since I've talked to you, and
and one of the things I appreciate you is how
forthcoming you've been about this. You said, look, we made
the mistakes, We screwed this up. There should have been
cameras in the courtroom. You're not absolute on Oh this
was so easy and so obvious.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
But you know, Rob, one of the things that's important.
I think also, you just struck a bit of a
chord with me. It's easy for the defense to talk
about what we did wrong. Yeah, and they did again.
I don't blame Baldwin and Rossie for doing that, but
this was a case of lifetime of a lifetime. How
we manage that kind of information then versus now is
totally different.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Really, Oh absolutely changes because of this.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh my gosh, we understood what our deltas are.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So fortunately the FBI in the Orion system, which isn't
available anymore, they were able to bring that to us,
to be able to collate and keep all the information
that we got. Was it perfect, No, But we were
receiving thousands of tips a day for a while. So anyway, Yeah,
you know, those are the kinds of things that they
can talk about them all they want. I'll debate them
(20:55):
anytime they want to. This is about human beings. This
is not about intention mistakes and doing things intentionally wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
So you were in the documentary, but it was news clips.
Did the producers approach you to be on camera?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, they reached out to both Jerry Holman and I
and we did they because they they wanted to restrict
what we could say after the documentary, so I guess
they wanted to own it, and again that's just all
part of it and we so we declined. But they
did a really nice job, even though they didn't weren't
able to interview us like they like like they wanted to.
(21:31):
But Holman, I mean, Jerry Holman is just the guy's
just a star.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That's awesome. Man. Well, you know, I just appreciate you
being with us today. Obviously, this is a case that
changed the state. It shouldn't be forgotten how it and
I thought the documented a good job of capturing how
those families were impacted. I think they sometimes get lost
in this when there's media covers that there's these families
(21:56):
that lost these two little girls. And I just appreciate
you coming in and shedding some light on this because
it will always captivate the public. You know, fifty years
from now, people will still be talking about the Delphi case,
and I think that's why it's great to get someone
like you. The record will now be preserved in interviews
like this on things that the public maybe didn't see
(22:17):
or know about and.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Those that are listening. I also that Florifire is a
really big deal and that's still unfinished. Yeah, so even
while I'm not still there, those detectives are. And if
you know some say something.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Please all right. It is Kendilly Casey. It's ninety three
WYBC
Casey. There is a new documentary out on Hulu about
the Delphi murders. I know you have watched it, three
part docuseries. That's right by the way. It's Kenell and
Casey showing Rob Casey's here. I have now watched it.
I did in part because we have a fabulous guest
with us who knows that case very well. He is
all over that that documentary and he is the former
(00:24):
police superintendent for the state of Indiana. Doug Carter joins us. Now, Doug, Hello, Hey,
good morning to you. So have you seen the documentary?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I did. I watched it over the weekend.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Is it weird to watch a documentary on a case
that you basically knew from start to finish? Like I
think if somebody did a documentary or radio show or
our radio program, Like, what is that like to see
a documentary? I'm sure you you just pick things apart
the whole time.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Well, it was quite frankly, it was difficult.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Rob.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It was. It took me back in time almost nine
years ago, at least in February. That's what it will be.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Do you remember all the stuff well? Or is it
where things jogging your memory?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh? Absolutely, jogging my memory. There was so much to it.
There were just so much From the very beginning, I
captivated little literally captivated the planet. I mean, they were
inquiry from all over the world, so it was it
was quite an experience.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
All right. So I think one of the problems with
the Delphi case is that we didn't get to see
what went on in the courtroom, and so we were
limited to the descriptions of the people who were there
a very select amount of media. Do you think that
(01:39):
was a major issue And do you think if there
have been cameras in the courtroom people would have felt
differently about the trial?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I do, I do. I look back on that time, though, Robbit,
I think Judge gall was dealing with enormous an enormous
amount of pressure to make sure that that Richard Allen's
rights were protected, that the that the state was doing
the right thing, that the defense was going to do
the right thing, all the while there's an enormous amount
(02:05):
of noise around it, around the entire case. So I understand,
I understood then why she made that decision to maintain
some civility and control of the courtroom. But I think
probably looking back now again Hindsight's twenty twenty that single
camera in the courtroom probably would have told a different story,
(02:26):
at least to the public.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
What do you think, and you know this case as
well as just about anybody, what do you think was
the biggest thing that didn't get relayed to the public
from that trial? What do you think if there had
been cameras in the courtroom that the public didn't see
or didn't get relayed to them by the media, that
would have maybe changed some much great question.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
There was a It seems seemed to be that most
of the people that were reporting about this clickcase had
a singular focus. It wasn't necessarily objective reporting. It was
and I don't know if it was intentional. I think
with some it was, but.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Mean like they had an opinion on what happened.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
They did, they formed an opinion, but they didn't talk
about the other side. That's interesting, it really was. It
was fascinating because I would sit and listen, and then
I would watch the news later they were totally different.
It was totally totally different.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Based Okay, so you're saying based on what was going
on in the courtroom and then the way it was
being presented which that doesn't make sense because you got
a day's worth of testimony and then you got these
news guys that got to do their news hits or
their stories or whatever in you know, at best five
to ten minutes, right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Absolutely, yeah, And I'm not casting blame on them. It
was a very difficult period of time for everybody involved.
I mean many of them were there all night long
to get a seat in the courtroom. Yeah, so there
was it was a magic balance there, and it was
out of balance a little bit.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I watched the docuseries and I went through Richard Allen
was guilty, you know, he was innocent. No, he was guilty.
And there was one moment for me this sealed the deal.
And I can tell you what that is. But I
want to know about your opinion the one thing that
you hang your hat on that says, yeah, that's the bullet.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah all right, can you explain the bullet because even
the expert on the docuent series was like, look, this
isn't iron clad stuff. You need multiple people can give
you multiple different opinions on it. You and I have
talked before about this offline. What about the bullets sealed
it for you?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
And let's be specific. You're talking about the bullet that
was found.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
At the crime scene. Yes, yes, it's obviously it was
presented in the courtroom. So I'm not talking about anything
I can't. But what I explained to people now is
if you found something in your room in your home
where a crime was committed that belonged to a certain
individual that you didn't know, is it more likely than
(04:53):
not that that person was in your room? Right? Yeah,
the answer is yes. I would think to most people,
would that quarter be there, why would that dime be there?
Why would that gun be there? Why would that bullet
be there? And it was more likely than not his.
So that was a big deal to me. And again
I've never investigated a crime like this. Yeah, but I
(05:16):
felt my responsibility was to protect those that were and
let them do their job objectively. And that was a
really really big moment for me.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Did you ever did you ever sway on this? Okay?
I guess. First of all, let's go back because the
documentary and they got three hours, right, so they can't
get to everything. But it's sort of like there's this
giant time hop in the documentary to where now he's
just a suspect, Like we just fast forward through basically
years of stuff. Was he always a suspect? Was he
(05:46):
always somebody that was being looked at? What put him
back on a radar? I don't think that. I think
people still are confused about Well.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think the documentary by Hulu did a really nice
job of explaining how all that happened, because, as you know,
there was contact with Richard Allen early on, and as
simplistic as this is, it was missed. It was just simply.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Missed putting a file and getting a drawer.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And they did and they said their job.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Theirs being Richard Allens, like, well, this guy was here
the whole time, and you know, so what you're basically
saying is, yeah, that was just a mistake. It was
the logical was.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
There's no other I'm not going to spin that into
something that's not. That's just the reality. And I know
we took a lot of heat over this from you Rob.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
People. Now we talk like does he know all the things?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yes, And that's one that's one of the reasons that
I felt like I had to be as involved as
I was, and and and my job was to take
the not that it was I'm not being disrespectful. Rob.
The noise everybody else is jo noise of coming, you know,
of coming and everybody. But I understood it. I understood
(07:01):
your position. I did it. I wish I could have
come on and yeah and calmed it all down, but
I just couldn't do that at the time. I just
couldn't do that. And and it was, it was. It
was an amazing experience.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
There's Doug Carter's I guess, former state police superintendent. We're
talking about the Delphi murders. There's this very interesting new
documentary on Hulu. Is there any has there ever been
any doubt in your mind that this is the guy?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Ever?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, once he was identified.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Right right right? Never, You've never waivered, never any not?
Is there any Is there any truth to if the
judge had allowed the because a lot of people feel
like they there was. The rulings were very one sided
in favor of the prosecution. If they'd have allowed the
defense to present the odinism stuff. Do you think the
jury's mind would have been changed or would have changed
(07:52):
more people in the public. Should the judges said, look,
this is such a big case, let's just err on
the side of caution, let you have everything at your disposal.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Well, what Judge Gould did and what I would do
really aren't comparable because I didn't sit in her seat.
I think she did what she thought was right at
the time. I think if if that whole odinism issue
was presented, the outcome would have been to say.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You don't think it would have swayed the jury at all.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I don't. I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
You said you watched the docu series. What was your
impression of it, because for many people it was the
first time hearing from Richard Allen's wife.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Again, I thought they did a really nice job. I
thought it was I thought it was fair and balanced.
I thought they presented both sides. I found it very
interesting that that Andrew bald When indicated after his first
meeting with Richard Allen that he was innocent. Remember he
said that after the very first meeting when he went outside.
And again I don't hate him for that. I mean,
(08:46):
I think he tried to do what he tried to do,
and he tried to do it with as much vigor
and passion and empathy and as he could. But we
couldn't jump to those conclusions like that, and we dang
sure didn't jump to those conclusions. So the defense was
able to get information out there in the public that
we were not able to respond to. And again I'm
not complaining about that. I guess I kind of am,
because the one hundred and thirty six page document that
(09:08):
was released early on was was full of mischaracterizations about
the process and about impressions and what's factual and what's not,
and we couldn't respond to that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, they go in a little bit in the documentary.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
They do, and there's a gag order at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
What wester Fell or whatever his name was, you know,
he's all over that that. He's like, well, I don't
get that back now, Like you know, right, my name
is forever linked into this thing.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Everybody that is mentioned was investigated. It was there terabytes
of information. I think they talked about millions of pages
of documents in the documentary.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Was there anything missing from the documentary?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Oh? I think the documentary could have been eight hours
long or maybe ten hours long. But again, they found
a real magic balance there, and I hope people watch it.
I do. I listened to you, to Casey. I listened
to you that day last week, so I kind of
had an idea of what your thought was about the bullet.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Yeah, it was exactly what you said. That's what Oh
it was.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
It was people breaking news. You're in, you're in on
the jury, got it right?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Yeah, I said that the day.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Watching the let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Was it was the bullet just like Doug Carter said,
that's what's solidified.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Let's talk about that guy Relford, who's here all the time. Yes,
and I remember Guy Reliford. You might have hearved me
to say this before, but it's really, really, really important.
No one really understands the jury, like the jury. Yeah,
I sat in the jury box the day after or
the day of the guilty here the guilty verdict. They're
the ones that see the courtroom. They see the state,
(10:44):
they see the defense, they see they they watched Richard
Allen for seventeen days, a totally different perspective than everybody else. Right,
we all have kind of even me, I had a
singular focus, right, and all your listeners did had that
exact focused. So our system of justice says, if that
this would be tried by jury of your peers, yeah,
(11:06):
that happened. So either you agree with our system of
justice or you don't as imperfect as it is.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, let's take a break. Doug Carter is our guest,
former superintendent of the Indiana State Police. We're talking about
all things Delphi. This new documentary, three part documentary out
on Hulu. We're getting Doug's perspective on the Delphi murder
investigation and trial. It's Kenill Casey Show ninety three WIBCNE.
(11:39):
It's Kenel Casey Show on Robin Casey.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Here, our guest is our former stately superintendent Doug Carter.
There is a new documentary out on Hulu, three part
documentary on the Delphi murders. Doug has been kind enough
to come in obviously say, nobody knows this investigation, perhaps
better than Doug Carter. Doug has been kind enough to
give us some of his insights into the investmentation, into
the trial. So let's get back to Richard Allen, the
(12:03):
convicted murderer. One of the things that people will say
is this guy because the confessions were such a major
part and this guy was basically tortured in prison, he
wasn't himself. Was he treated fairly in prison? Should something
have been done differently?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And is there a legitimate case to say, hey, the
guy was clearly going through a lot of stuff. You
can't take a lot of weight in what he said
in prison.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Well, remember this the probable cause beyond a reasonable doubt.
It can be built over time. Yeah, it's not one
thing that he said, it's not one event that he talked.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think the ward and I don't remember his name
in the in the in the series, talked about how
he was treated there. I don't think DOC has ever
had an inmate quite like this before, particularly a pre
adjudicated inmate.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And for those who may not know what you just said,
that's for someone who has not been convicted, that's right, Yeah,
that is going to trial, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I had a detective that listened to every single com
voice or every single phone conversation that Richard Allen had
outside of the prison system, every single one, for years.
That was his job. And again, those admissions came over time.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
So it wasn't that every you're saying, And that's interesting
you're saying, it wasn't every day that he was some
rambling incoherent madness.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Oh no, not at all, No, not at all, not
at all.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
I think the wife is do you think the wife
is just naive? Do you think I don't know? Rob?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
You know Cathy is, she's a very kind person. She's
she has never caused any problem for anybody. Yeah, and
there's some empathy for her. I have empathy for her
because remember I said in twenty nineteen, the killer could
be in this room.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, when you said that, you didn't know it was
him though, right, Gosh no, because people thought that. That
is very and that's of course the famous one of
the most famous parts of this whole investigation is your
your press conference that day. You didn't know it was
him at that point.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Rob, I walked across that bridge a couple of times.
There is no way it was anybody that hadn't been
there before.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Now the bridge is totally different. And I was up
there now long ago, and I periodically and then that area.
I just go up there and walk that bridge. But
it's very different now than it.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Was creepy to do, like for you to go up
and just wow.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's actually pretty therapeutic again, really, yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I'm not trying to be like a psychiatrist here, but
tell me about that. People will find that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, I've I've lost track of the number of times
I was up there over since February of twenty seventeen,
and there's there's a certain place up there that that
frankly i'd like to I like to go up and
sit and and just think about what occurred to those
two little girls that day and how it was literally
captivated the world. And I got to say, there were
(15:01):
there were times throughout this that eight year period that
I was thinking to myself, I'm going to fail. I'm
going to fail those two little girls in this community
and all these people that have so much there's so
much relying on this, and not just me personally, but
I got to watch people just give their entire lives
to something other than themselves, and that was Abby and Libby,
and it was so amazing to watch. So to walk
(15:21):
where they walked is very therapeutic to me.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Case, I have two questions I want to make sure
we get before read along those lines.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
You've been doing this for quite a long time. Was
this the most pressure you ever felt in your career?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yes, Carroll County, Indiana was the most. The most pressure.
The floor fires haunt me to this day and that's
that's that. That's one small community has really really, really
enveloped my career, at least in my own mind.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Okay, two things I want to make sure we get
to it. One is do you believe firmly Alan acted alone?
Have you ever thought there was somebody else involved with him?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, that's it's a good question right now that that
information is not out there that that someone else did.
But as with any other capital crime, any other murder investigation,
they never close. So you know, the the truth will
set you free. I think the truth comes out over
time and we'll see. I hope one data sit down
(16:23):
with Richard Allen. I know I can't do that right
now because of the appeal, and I don't blame him
for the appeal.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
You would go meet with him.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I want to go meet with him, I do, but
I can't. I can't even reach out. I know I can't.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Would you ask what would you say to him?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Well, I have lots of questions I would ask him.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That would be like, like, not that there's anything lighthearted
about any of this, but from a pure consumption by
the public, I mean you would you would to put
that on That would be the most fascinating conversation ever.
Even see you guys sit in a room and talk with.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Each other that one day we can and he didn't
have to say one word to me, and I have
I would have plenty to say to him, And I
think I could be that voice for a lot of
people because I have. I would really like to sit
with him. I would really like to sit with Kathy
and talk about our perspectives in the last you know,
(17:19):
nearly a decade.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Okay, And obviously I don't want you to go in
too much detail on this, but I think people will
be fascinating to get your perspective on how this actually occurred,
because it's one guy with two girls, and how you
think in a radio friendly format, you think that he
was able to pull this off?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Evil lives amongst us, Rob and I do. I think
that he do. But I personally think that he had
he was going to do a B.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
C, D and E. But you don't think he was
plotting that out that day when he.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Went plotting something out?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But I'm not sure you think when he went that
day he was It was not a spur of the
moment sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Oh no, no, no, I don't think so I don't
think so.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Do you. Okay, I don't mean to veer off this.
I think people are gonna find this very interesting, Like
because he doesn't have a criminal history, so you think
there's always just like this thing inside of him and
it just snapped that day.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I do.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Do you feel like Kathy was manipulated their entire marriage?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I don't know, because they ever talked to her. I
don't know, but it does. It does seem unusual. They
talked about the blue jacket in the documentary. They talked
about the blue jeans. In the documentary, Richard Allen talked
about the blue blue jacket car jacket he had when
he said that it gave me chills.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
They did that? Had I assume you had obviously seen
all that before. I mean that, Oh yeah, that was fast.
That was fascinating.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Yeh.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Where he basically stooge done himself, which is amazing, by
the way, when he went and agreed to talk to
the investigators without an attorney or you guys just like, oh,
I mean, what was your I cannot.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
No, not really surprised by that, No, not really.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I mean, if you did it, wouldn't you be like,
oh heck, no, I'm getting, you know, the best attorney
known to man, and and you.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Know, look at it from the different perspective. I'm gonna
I'm gonna sit somewhere neutral. If I don't want an attorney,
they're gonna assume that I didn't do this.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
In the So in the mind of the criminal, they
always think they can outsmart the cops. Is that the deal? Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I think that's for general generally that's accurate rule.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, how often does that happen? A little life
advice from state former State Police of verintended Dug Carter.
How many of the criminals out smart the cops?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Not very often.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
It's got to be that element of narcissism. Yeah, that
things they can get away with the evil. But also
he worked.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
At the CVS in downtown Delphi. Yeah, there probably wasn't
a person in Delphi that didn't have some level of
interaction with you. So those are the kinds of things
I'd love to talk with him.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
So before I let you go get out of here
with this, because obviously there are people like me who
still have doubts. Soough since I've talked to you, and
and one of the things I appreciate you is how
forthcoming you've been about this. You said, look, we made
the mistakes, We screwed this up. There should have been
cameras in the courtroom. You're not absolute on Oh this
was so easy and so obvious.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
But you know, Rob, one of the things that's important.
I think also, you just struck a bit of a
chord with me. It's easy for the defense to talk
about what we did wrong. Yeah, and they did again.
I don't blame Baldwin and Rossie for doing that, but
this was a case of lifetime of a lifetime. How
we manage that kind of information then versus now is
totally different.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Really, Oh absolutely changes because of this.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh my gosh, we understood what our deltas are.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So fortunately the FBI in the Orion system, which isn't
available anymore, they were able to bring that to us,
to be able to collate and keep all the information
that we got. Was it perfect, No, But we were
receiving thousands of tips a day for a while. So anyway, Yeah,
you know, those are the kinds of things that they
can talk about them all they want. I'll debate them
(20:55):
anytime they want to. This is about human beings. This
is not about intention mistakes and doing things intentionally wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
So you were in the documentary, but it was news clips.
Did the producers approach you to be on camera?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, they reached out to both Jerry Holman and I
and we did they because they they wanted to restrict
what we could say after the documentary, so I guess
they wanted to own it, and again that's just all
part of it and we so we declined. But they
did a really nice job, even though they didn't weren't
able to interview us like they like like they wanted to.
(21:31):
But Holman, I mean, Jerry Holman is just the guy's
just a star.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That's awesome. Man. Well, you know, I just appreciate you
being with us today. Obviously, this is a case that
changed the state. It shouldn't be forgotten how it and
I thought the documented a good job of capturing how
those families were impacted. I think they sometimes get lost
in this when there's media covers that there's these families
(21:56):
that lost these two little girls. And I just appreciate
you coming in and shedding some light on this because
it will always captivate the public. You know, fifty years
from now, people will still be talking about the Delphi case,
and I think that's why it's great to get someone
like you. The record will now be preserved in interviews
like this on things that the public maybe didn't see
(22:17):
or know about and.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Those that are listening. I also that Florifire is a
really big deal and that's still unfinished. Yeah, so even
while I'm not still there, those detectives are. And if
you know some say something.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Please all right. It is Kendilly Casey. It's ninety three
WYBC
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