October 20, 2024 • 53 mins
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Thanks for sticking by us with our Internet outage issues! Since our loyal listeners are so amazing-here's a little bonus episode. Mountain Murders discusses the Heaven's Gate cult along with the psychology behind cults.
Hosts Heather and Dylan P
www.patreon.com/mountainmurderspodcast
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/mountain-murders--3281847/support.
Thanks for sticking by us with our Internet outage issues! Since our loyal listeners are so amazing-here's a little bonus episode. Mountain Murders discusses the Heaven's Gate cult along with the psychology behind cults.
Hosts Heather and Dylan P
www.patreon.com/mountainmurderspodcast
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/mountain-murders--3281847/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, y'all, welcome back to Mountain Murders.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm Heather and I'm Dylan.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm haunted Heather.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oo spooky Heather.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you demented Dylan?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Ooh, that's a good nickname for me. I'm very demented.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Well, that's one way to describe you. Yes, yeah, Dylan,
it is spooky season. And you know, up until this point,
I've just kind of been like, I don't know, down
in the dumps or something. I mean, we had the
week without power, we haven't had internet for almost three weeks.
It's just been kind of like dragging us down right.
It's been really hard to get anything done in the dark,
(00:35):
and with no internet.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Service, we're just going through the motions.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, I know. So, you know, I feel like I'm
not in to the Halloween spirit like I should be.
But today you did something really sweet for me. You
took me to the pop up halloween store that every
that's very spirited. Everyone knows what we're talking about. And
we walked around a little bit and it really kind
of did hell help me elevate my Halloween mood?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Got you back into the spirit?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Did?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Plus I saw this really cool shit that I want
so you know, I probably shouldn't go back in there
because it's probably a couple hundred bucks that will get
thrown decor cool stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
But uh, I got it's too loud. They were blaring
music through.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Speakers too loud. Does that mean we're too old? No?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I mean this was disconcerting.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It was it was they had the Ghostbusters theme song playing,
and it was so fucking loud. I felt like we
were at a concert. Actually. I looked at you and
I was like, what are we at a Doyle show? Like, yeah,
my ear drums are melting in here, looks.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Like you can't hear the person talking directly next to you.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
No, it was way too loud, and I don't know
why you would think that people would want that in
a retail setting.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Also, you were confused about one of their animatronics, and
I have to say it was kind of an odd choice.
But he was a carnival barker and he wasn't particularly scary. No,
he was just kind of this big.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Bald guy six seven foot tall.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, and you were like what, okay, Like, who would.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Buy that three hundred bucks?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah? I mean it seems like an odd choice. Yeah,
because you have all this like really scary shit like
clowns and whatever, and then you've just got the carnival
barker guy.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I guess somebody thought it was gonna be a hot item.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, if you were gonna do like a freak show theme,
I don't know, but it was. It was odd. It
was an odd choice.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I just can't imagine they sold a lot of those.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Too many costumes. And I have to say, Halloween masks
have gotten really frightening.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, their next level.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
They've evolved.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I mean some of these masks look like professional, like
something out of a movie, and they're very expensive. But
they're so heavy that like latex and rubber. I just
don't think I would be comfortable wearing something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
No, I know that's gonna be one of those deals
when you're an hour in you're going to end up
taking your mask off and not carrying it around, Yeah,
because it just too much.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
But they were pretty badass. I have to give them props.
Are you excited for how.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, we're gonna make the most of what we have
left here of the spooky season and try to get
into the spirit.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I got some pumpkins. Oh yeah, I about pumpkins is
decorate nice. I got white pumpkin.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah. See where do they even grow those?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
They're heirloom pumpkins. I don't know, but they were a
little expensive, but I kind of liked how they were
oddly shaped, so I bought them anyway. Yeah, I love
a good seasonal gourd.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
You got a quality seasonal gord.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Got a good seasonal gord here.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I'm pretty sure them our dog and Renee's dogs, our
neighbor have they've peed on the pumpkins. Ah, so that's
that's nice for the neighborhood dogs.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
O pissy punk Dylan.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Since we are heading into spooky season, we've tried to
make October very spectacular for you guys, trying to keep
with like high strangeness creepy vibes. I thought, now, we
do have a regular true crime episode coming out. We
will drop that tomorrow, but I thought kind of a
little extra bonus. We did our true crime recrap this week,
(04:01):
but we could talk about some cults before Halloween. Ah.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Nothing scarier than a good old cult.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like cults are pretty frightening.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh They're terrible, Like.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Those masks at the spirited store.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, I'm just having if I was to have a
family member or something tied up in something like this,
and uh, what's so odd about it is? No matter
how much, it's almost like the more you tell your
loved one that this is a cult, they're they're they're
insisting that it's not a cult. And yeah, it's a
it's a weird situation.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I wasn't a cult one time. Oh yeah, it's called
roller Derby took all my time, all my money. It
was my life for some years. Oh I talked about
it's it's kind of like a cult.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It's like CrossFit.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Oh your friends are involved? Yeah, like you just start
hanging out with all the people who play. If I've
got any other Derby girls out there, then what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Okay, it's definitely a cult.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
But it was fun. And then I got out.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
You made it.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
I did. You're a all right, Dylan. So let's talk
about the heavens Gate cult. And I have a couple
more cults we're gonna discuss before the big day, but
heavens Gate let's start with that. Now. Do you know
a lot about heavens Gate?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I know a little bit.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I mean I remember when this was newsworthy. Yeah, this
was only in nineteen ninety seven, so it's not been
that long ago. Although we have some listeners they are
probably like, that was ninety seven, that was one hundred
years ago.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Well, no, but it was in our last time.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It was definitely something I remember from my teen years, yeah,
because it was a big deal. Okay. So the Heavens
Gate Cult, it was also known as the hall Bop Cult,
became infamous in nineteen ninety seven after the mass suicide
of thirty nine members in Rancho Santa Fe, California. The
group's beliefs revolved around an unusual combination of New Age spirituality,
(05:52):
Christian millennialism, and science fiction, particularly the belief that an
extraterrestrial spacecraft was telling the hell Bop Comment, which appeared
prominently in the sky in nineteen ninety seven. This tragic
event remains one of the most well known examples of
cult behavior driven by apocalyptic and UFO beliefs. So I
(06:15):
kind of have put together dylan an analysis of the origin,
some of the beliefs, the dynamics of the cult, and
then their ultimate demise. So we're not going to do
like a super end upth you know, four part series
on this cult, but just enough to kind of give
you a glimpse if you're unfamiliar with Heaven's Skate.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Okay, now, Heavens.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Skate was founded in the early nineteen seventies by Marshall
Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles, who later adopted the names Doe
and t.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
They forgot Raymi fosso lah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well they had they had great names anyway, Bonnie and
Marshall apple Bottom, apple White, apple White.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
You wish you had enough bottom, Yeah, you would wear
those genes, you little slut.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I have some of those genes and the boots with
the fur man.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I remember back when the apple Bottom jeans were cool.
I debated buying a pair, but then I didn't because
they were expensive. Okay, and I didn't have any boots
with fur.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
You're welcome. Take me back to two thousand and four. Now.
Apple White, a former music teacher, met Nettles, a nurse,
during a time of personal crisis, and both became convinced
they were chosen to fulfill a divine mission. They believed
they were the two witnesses prophesized in the Book of
Revelation chosen to guide a group of followers to a
(07:38):
higher plane of existence. Apple White and Nettles began recruiting
followers under the name Human Individual Metamorphosis or HIM, and
traveled across the United States, holding meetings that attracted curious
and spiritually searching individuals. They preached a message met a
message that come by and Christian eschatology. I don't know
(08:03):
if I'm saying that correctly, Okay, but eschatology with Eastern
reincarnation beliefs and the notion that extraterrestrial beings were guiding
humanity's spiritual evolution.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Okay, that's a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Well it is. But you know, Dylan, I think there
are I don't know if I would call them cults,
but maybe conspiracy theorists who buy into these ideas about
aliens and UFOs and that they're possibly meddling in human affairs, right,
like they're wearing human skin suits and they're Hillary Clinton
(08:40):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Well, yeah, I've heard those theories on Reddit.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, I mean in the like in the Egyptian culture,
you know, a lot of people point to the higher
glyphs and think or theorize that maybe the gods quote
unquote they were worship being were actually aliens, and there
are some very interesting things in some of the drawings
(09:05):
and sculptures and such like that. And then you take
into account the you know, building of the pyramids, which
is a huge task, and some people think there was
you you know, alien technology, which answers some of the
questions we have nowadays about how did they do it?
How did they manage to do that with you know,
ropes and pulleys and logs.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
That's racist, is it? Okay? Hear me out? I saw
this content creator describing how ancient alien theories is rooted
in racism because it's suggesting that people of color in
the Middle East and Egypt and Africa wherever were not
(09:48):
capable to build these yeah, and that we're discrediting their capability,
and so we have to use the aliens to make
it make sense to us because we're racist.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But the thing is, it doesn't matter what color does.
It's people period achieving these things.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Well, I guess I've never thought of that viewpoint, And
I was like, Okay, I guess you can find an
ism and anything.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Right, Well, it's just they happen to be people of color.
But it still blows my mind they were able to,
you know, place these megastones, you know, is as fascinating.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I mean it would take like years to build. Look
like the Sphinx and the pyramids.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
The stone comes from you know, five hundred miles away,
which you know nowadays might not sound like a lot,
but back then.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
It was still a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Nowadays, Yeah, you're moving these tons of stone five hundred
miles and uh, you know the math on the pyramid.
I've heard before that they had to be placing a
stone something like every five minutes or less to get
this done in the twenty years or whatever it took
to build it. So, I mean, it just it's amazing.
I mean it'd be hard to build.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
The difficult feet today.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Today with all the modern technology.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Well we see the structures that are built today. It's
very shoddy.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah. So I mean when someone theorizes that either they
had advanced to knowledge and tech, you know, techniques that
we don't know of nowadays, or maybe there's some lost
history involved. I mean, you can go five different paths
of conspiracy theory when you talk about this kind of history.
But I certainly never thought, oh, those brown people could
(11:24):
never do that. I mean, it's just people period. I mean,
that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
But you know, if you look for racism, you know,
through you through a racist lens, you view everything you're
going to see racism.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, I have to say I enjoy hearing different points
of view. I mean it does give your brain something
to ponder, to think about in a question, right, I
mean I like that, you know, I like to have
my brain working all the time and thinking about these
big issues and abstract thoughts. But I have to say,
sometimes I feel like people are really reaching for something
(12:02):
when it's not that hard to look for just in
something that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
A simple explanation, but they have to well.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, I mean, I'm like, you don't really have to
pull this whole thing like a string to be like
this is racism when you can just see, you know,
there's just racism that's like prevalent, like somebody spits on
you at the stores. I'm like, come on, dude, AnyWho.
I just think it's funny and I enjoy watching people
(12:30):
spiral out with their thoughts. All right, Dylan, moving along,
that aliens are racist, extraterrestrial evolution. These are some of
the core beliefs of Heaven's Gate that revolved around this
millennial and UFO centered ideas. So some of the tenants
here extraterrestrial evolution. So Apple White and Nettle's taught that
(12:53):
humanity's purpose was to transcend earthly existence enjoin a next
level or an advanced extraterrestrial civilization. They believed in the
existence of higher beings who could assist in the spiritual evolution,
so the next step would be, you know, instead of heaven.
(13:14):
Their idea of heaven is like this alien nirvana.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Well it's almost like they're viewing it as levels to
existence and you're just trying to as send to a
higher level.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Right, were you on board with the big headed little
gray eyes.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:29):
At heck heck, I love Mer's attacks. Rejection of earthly
attachments was another tenant. Members were expected to cut off
all ties with family, friends in society, material possessions, relationships,
and any form of identity attachment were seen as obstacles
to ascend to this next level. And this is something
(13:50):
I always find so interesting about cults is how they
always want you to give up your worldly possessions or
but it's usually like they want to take possession of
your stuff. Well, Yeah, they want you to donate your
money or your stuff to them.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Right, they'll preach, oh, you don't need these things. They're
not necessary for you to really fulfill your spirit. But
they want you to liquidate it and you know, and
absorb all the assets into their their cold or keeping
them up.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Ab Ale wide believe that ascension could only occur by
shedding human physicality. This would allow followers to transform into
these perfected extraterrestrial beings. You got to shed your human skin, Dylan,
got to shave it off, Bud, I mean, the flayed man.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
These The fact that you can convince other people of
all this is pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
It is amazing. What a talent, right, I really wish
I could be this manipulative. I'd be a great cult
leader if people just you know, listen to me. Right,
But I don't really have that charisma. I guess that's neat.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, and you don't have the psychopathy that you would
need to shit on people to manipulate them to this degree.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Well, I don't know about that. Maybe I just haven't
tapped into it yet, dyn't. In nineteen ninety six, the
discovery of the hail Bob comment reinvigorated the group's beliefs
as apple White became convinced that a spacecraft was hiding
in the comet's tail awaiting their souls. This would become
a trigger for the group's final tragic act. Again, how
(15:32):
does one like Marshall apple White or do Rey Me
whatever his name is, just he just gets this idea, like,
you know what, there's a spaceship in the tail of
this comment that's coming to save us, right, I mean,
like that seems almost like a hallucination, like maybe he
(15:53):
needed some medication.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Well, I guess that you just have to have faith, right,
I mean, it's not much different than the faith that
people have in many other religions. Right, there's no proof
of any of this. You just take them out their
word and just believe what they're saying is the way
it is. I guess I've never been able to have
that type of blind faith in anything really, And sometimes
(16:20):
I'm jealous of people that can because they can just
you know, they can just kind of get a warm,
fuzzy feeling by assuming that some other power is going
to take care of this or something.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I mean, I think when it comes I think this
is the part because you know what I mean. We've
discussed this on the show. We're not religious people.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
We're not religious.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
We you do feel like we have a moral compass
and we try to live in a way that we
feel like is right, like we know right from wrong.
But we don't subscribe to any particular religious practice. We
don't go to church, I mean whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
But I don't go around telling people they shouldn't believe
in whatever they believe.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
No, I want people to believe fully and wholeheartedly what
they believe. I'm like, that's awesome, because, like you said,
sometimes I'm jealous or like I just can't like my
brain just will let me do this. But I see
people who have faith and have this relationship, whether it's
Christianity or or some other religion, and they have almost
(17:24):
like this hope and this like a great great sense
of peace, like a grace and a gratitude. They see
the blessings and things, an optimism if you will. That
I'm jealous sometimes that I don't have that right Yeah, yeah,
(17:44):
so anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
They seem sorry, go ahead, these this cult is has
the earmarks of a doomsday cult.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I mean it's apocalyptic.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
It's apocalyptic.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
You have Uh, it just has that sort of New
Age and UFO element, but it's mostly I think an apocalyptic.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Well no, and that's what you have to have to
end up with the scenario you end up here where
what is it twenty nine people?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Oh no, it was thirty thirty.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Almost forty people took.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Their lives thirty nine, it was almost forty.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
A mass suicide situation. You have to have that deadline.
You have to have a doomsday aspect. If you don't
you do this or else if you will. And you
need all these elements to get this people in on
something like this for everyone to agree that this is
the only way.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
For You're right, Dylan, and you do need that deadline.
You can't always be moving the goalpost. That's how you
end up losing followers, right, Like if I've seen these
groups that are like, oh, the end of time's coming
on this day, and then it doesn't happen, and then
they're like, oh, well it's this day, and they just
keep pushing these dates back, and you know, finally after
a decade their members are like no and.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Just leave, right, And you got to say, you got
to hand it to these people.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
They you got to adhere to the deadline.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
They went with it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
You've got to meet the deadline head on. One of
the interesting facets of this cult, in my opinion, Dyling
is their strict lifestyle and structure. Members were required to
adapt these certain lifestyle habits, which included celibacy, minimal personal expression,
a uniform code of dress, and some of the mail
(19:27):
members were even castrated to suppress their sexual desires.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So basically what they were going after was it was
a transhumanism in my opinion, to a transcend into another
like a yeah, or level of being an energy plane
if you want, that makes sense, right, And they shot
for like almost an androgynous kind of a very nondescript
(19:54):
the clothes they wore. They started to referring to each
other as like almost likearacters on a star Trek ship,
you know, like you're the commander, I'm the lieutenant, and
the number, you know, and it's very strange. And they
want to eat plain food. They I mean, they were taking.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
All that don't enjoy any worldly pleasures.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Right, it was the only way to get themselves ready
to you know, move on to this next life.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So when the waiter comes over and it is like,
would you like extra cheese. Apple White was.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Like, no cheese for you, no cheese.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
No, You're gonna have your lasagna plane with.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
No salt, no pepper, no Italian seasoning.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's just the noodles, right, no cheese. Apple White's charisma
and deep convictions were key factors and maintaining controller of
the group. His leadership seemed to rely on three primary mechanisms,
one of those being isolation and group think. Members lived communally,
creating a close, looped environment in which critical thinking and
(20:53):
outside perspectives were limited. This isolation reinforced apple White's teachings
and discouraged dissent, which I think that's a pretty key
part of most cults. I think they want to alienate you.
Well that, yeah, there are many outside thoughts.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, they wanted to be insular. They wanted to be closed,
and you don't want to outside influences. No one else's,
you know, no one in your family or friends. You're
not going to run by what the cult leader told you.
They don't want other people's opinions because they don't value
them in the least a bit, and it's only going
to get in the way of them getting these people.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
To do what they want there was definitely an authoritarian hierarchy.
Apple White positioned himself as the direct link to the
next level, casting himself as an unquestionable authority. With Nettle's
death in nineteen eighty five, apple White's role as the
group's leader became more authoritative and isolated as he assumed
(21:51):
control over every aspect of members' lives. There was a
lot of emotional and psychological manipulation as well. Members were
hold that self sacrifice, suppression of personal identity, and adherence
to Applewhite's teachings were necessary for salvation. Disobedience was equated
with moral and spiritual failure, intensifying the psychological pressure to conform.
(22:16):
So in nineteen ninety seven, with the appearance of the
hail Bop Comment, this provided the final catalyst for Heaven's
Gates end. Apple White proclaimed that the time had come
for them to graduate from their earthly bodies, which they
viewed as mirror vehicles. The group believed that by committing suicide,
their souls would be freed to join the spacecraft trailing
(22:40):
the comment. This mass suicide was meticulously planned and carried
out in shifts over three days. Members ingested a mixture
of barbituates, and vodka, secured plastic bags over their heads
to hasten exphyxiation, and then they lay down in their
bunk beds covered in purple cloth. Each member wore identical
(23:01):
clothing and the same Nike sneakers. Apple White was among
the last to die, with two followers remaining to help
him and clean up before taking their own lives. Now, Dylan,
as trivial as it is, these Nike sneakers, that was
like such headline news back when the story broke. Oh, yeah,
(23:23):
everybody was just sort of blown away, not by the
colt or like this, but they were like, oh my gosh.
They were all wearing matching Nikes.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, they all had a fresh pair of Nikes on.
And actually Nike discontinued that shoe after this, they did. Yeah,
which makes these shoes very valuable. Really, I didn't know
that the sneaker head market.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Huh is that really what they're calling? Or are you
fucking with me?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
No, I'm not fucking with you. They're they're very uh.
I think it's a very uh early on iteration of
air force ones if I'm not mistaken. And no, they're
very very valuable.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I vaguely remember didn't they have like a specific color scheme.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
They were just white. It's just your basic white. They
had orange with uh. I feel like they were white
with just a black the black swoosh, but I could
be wrong. I don't know, But yeah, Niki discontinued them
after all this headlines, you know, because like you.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Said, you're right, they're black with a white swoosh.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, black with a white swoosh.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Okay, They're actually a pretty basic, very basic shoe, basic shoes.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
There were a cheap shoe.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, I thought they were more exciting than.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
There was nothing special about them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And just a picture of the shoe Instagram for folks
to check out.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I think that's one reason Niki didn't have a problem
just you know, moving away from that shoe because it
got connected to the story.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Kind of just looks like a shoe your dad would.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Wear, and it was a big like you said, to
cut the grass. People talk more about the shoe than
the fact that, unfortunately, thirty nine people took their own lives.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
This is what happened. They discontinued this shoe and then
your dad had to move on to get the white
new balances to cut the grass in.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, so this call, actually, you know affected pop culture,
You're right.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
The discovery of the body shocked the world, sparking intense
media coverage and this public fascination with cults and apocalyptic beliefs.
It highlighted several important aspects about cult psychology. Many cult
members are initially vulnerable or searching for a greater purpose.
Heaven's Gate appealed to individuals looking for spiritual fulfillment outside
(25:28):
of mainstream religious and society. Apple White's personality was central
to the group's cohesion. His authority, combined with his apocalyptic narrative,
convinced followers to relinquish their personal autonomy. The group's communal
lifestyle fostered groupthink and discourage members from questioning or challenging beliefs,
(25:48):
which can be common in high control religious or ideological groups.
And then the apocalyptic thinking, particularly when combined with this
charismatic leadership, can drive individuals to stream actions in the
belief that they are fulfilling a divine or cosmic purpose.
Heaven's Gate remains a significant case study for understanding cult
(26:10):
dynamics and dangers of charismatic authoritarian leaders who isolate and
psychologically manipulate their followers. The group's actions have served as
a cautionary tale and understanding the vulnerabilities that can lead
people into cults. Sociologists, psychologists, and theologians have studied Heaven's
(26:32):
Gate to better understand the appeal of that millennionarian that
millennium idea people were so obsessed with the year two thousand,
I don't know why, and the apocalyptic beliefs, just to
help develop methods for controlling I guess individuals and how
(26:54):
to help them disengage from high control groups.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, in this case, apple Bottom.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Apple White, apple Bottom, I like that apple White.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Actually believed his own bullshit. He was a true believer too.
This wasn't a case where we've seen many times where
the cult leaders are telling people all these things, but
they're just using all that to enrich themselves in various ways.
Have you know, all these sexual partners and get to
do all these things and be treated like a basically
(27:26):
a god on earth. He really believed it, and he
went through it with you know, he went through with
the plan with the plan and you know, along with
his followers. So I think that's interesting in this case.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Well, something that else that's pretty interesting in this case.
Dylan is that today Heavensgate's website remains active. It's maintained
by former members who did not participate in the suicide.
So this continued presence acts as a historical record and
reminder of the consequences of extreme beliefs when combined with
social isolation and unquestioning loyalty to a leader. Very strange
(28:04):
to still have this website up and at them, huh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
And they had a website, you know, back when hardly
anybody had a website, you know what I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Saying, nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, I wonder if this was
like a Geocity's angel Fire website.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I don't know, Dylan.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Let's talk a little bit about the psychology behind cults
just in general. I think it's fascinating. It's a pretty
complex blending of elements. You have social psychology, individual vulnerability,
group dynamics, and cognitive manipulation. Cults, whether they're religious, spiritual,
(28:40):
or ideological, exploit human needs for belonging, certainty, and purpose,
and by understanding the psychological processes that lead people to
join and stay in cults, we can gain insight into
the mechanisms that allow individuals to become deeply loyal to
organizations often demanding extreme obedience and sacrifice. So let's talk
(29:01):
about some of the factors that make cults so powerful
and compelling. I think a lot of us are deeply
interested or want to know more about cults because of
this very reason. The psychology behind cults. How can someone
(29:21):
fall prey to this?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Like?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
What type of person? How does this happen? Well, you
seem to be the big questions that we ask.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, and it doesn't happen overnight. It slowly happens. These
leaders get these people to keep making concessions and changes
in their lives. And I know from being in a
toxic relationship, but I had to I mean, this is
a form of a toxic relationship in my opinion. I
had to get outside of that relationship to see how
(29:50):
fucking horribly bad it was.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
You see what I'm saying now, When the abnormal is
your normal, but you don't know any better, y' all
you know is the dysfunct.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Knowing it slowly becomes that way, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
So, like I think of children that are born into cults,
were born into these religious schools. Yep, if you're taught
that your whole life that's all you've ever known.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, that's all you know.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It's hard to break away from these ideas.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It's no surprise or I mean, that's just that's how
if you were being if you grew up being taught
this told this, you don't know any better or you
don't know any different. So it's just how normal life is,
you know.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
What makes me think of And I don't know why
this just popped in my head, but like Warren Jeff's
the polygamist, and you know, I think he's in prison
now or was in prison.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I think he's still in prison.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
But you know, here this guy is, and he has
all these wives, and many of them are young, very
young children. Let's be honest, a twelve year old's child,
twelve fourteen, and he's got thirty wives. And I'm always
just blown away by like, how do you you stay
in this life? And you're one of twenty nine thirty
(31:06):
wives and you're having baby number eighty for this person.
I mean, it's just so crazy, right, But if you
were born into that, that's all you ever know, and
you don't have the means to leave, or you don't
know anyone outside. Well, yeah, and you're this polygamous sect
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, you don't have anybody saying, hey, wait a minute,
what's happening, that's weird or that's not right, or you know,
asking any questions because it's your normal. You're insulated from
the outside world.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
So let's talk about some of the things that get
people into cults. There is personal vulnerabilities which make individuals
more susceptible to cult influence, though anyone can be vulnerable
under the right circumstances. A lot of times, I guess
through studies a psychologist and whatnot have determined that personal
(31:58):
crisis or life trends often is a big factor. People
are more likely to join cults if they're in a
periodive crisis or a major life transition, like if you
have a death of a loved one or a divorce,
a big move, maybe the loss of a job. Those
(32:18):
transitions often involve a loss of identity and stability, which
cults exploit by offering a sense of purpose and belonging.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, if you literally have nowhere else to go, and
these people are because you know, they're gonna give you
the love bomb up front, They're gonna go, oh yeah, hey,
you know, come here. You know I think that was.
You almost saw rising cults during like the sixties and
stuff because people had like the free love movement and
the whole kind of ideals of the hippie movement. You know,
(32:48):
of a communal living, right, and but do you have
nowhere else to go or nothing really going on in
your life and you have these people as a group
of people are super nice to you. Everybody's you know,
super friendly, and they're telling you they're maybe they're blowing
you up, they're making you feel good about yourself, and
we'll just all live together, work together, no big deal.
I could see someone getting sucked in if they're in
(33:11):
like a big transitional period in their life. Absolutely it
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
But you know, Dylan, the sad part is if somebody
was trying to love them me, that would turn me off.
See my trauma is like I'm not out seeking love
and validation. I would automatically be like, get out of
my face. If somebody was trying to be nice to me, Well,
what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Well, everybody's different, you know, and I don't think me
and you we've said this before, and we've caught you know,
some blowback from listeners. But we're I don't think we're
wired to where we would get sucked into a cult.
And that's because we I think it's because with the
kind of households, chaotic households we grew up in, and
our bullshit meters are pretty good.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Time somebody is overly nice to me.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, well, I like, yeah, that makes me suspicious, automatically
suspicious and doubtful and feel like there's something wrong with you, Like.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
How dare you be so friendly to me?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
But if you know things have went differently in our
lives and childhoods, you know, we may be more susceptible
to this type of thing. You know. I just think
we're wired. We're the last people. The way we are,
the way we think and react to things. It's just
like that, we're the opposite for a good cult member,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, I know. I was just actually thinking, Hell, there's
something wrong with me, because anytime anybody's overly friendly or
nice or invites me to do something or become part
of their group and they're really super friendly, and there's
no reason in the world I should have an issue
with this person because they're hitting all the marks of
like just the sweetest person ever. That like deters me, well, yeah,
(34:55):
I want somebody who's just like you can come if
you want. I don't care if you tell like.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Okay, maybe that's the cult that gets you.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, the one that's disinterested in me.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, it's like, well are you still here.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
It's like a reverse cycle because I have oppositional defiance.
So if you're telling me like don't come, I'm like
all right, I'll be there.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Humans are inherently social creatures, and the need for belonging
is powerful. Cults often provide an inclusive, family like community,
offering a sense of belonging that many find comforting, particularly
those who feel alienated or lonely. Many cults recruit, I'm sorry.
Recruits are in search of deeper meaning or purposes in life.
Often they're dissatisfied with traditional belief systems or societal norms.
(35:39):
Cults offer compelling explanations of life's mysteries, often promising enlightenment
or a unique purpose that is fulfilling. People struggling with anxiety, depression,
or self esteem. Those issues may be particularly drawn to
the structured and seemingly supportive environments of cults, which which
(36:00):
promise personal transformation and fulfillment. Once an individual enters a cult,
powerful psychological techniques are employed to reinforce loyalty and deepen commitment.
These tactics, as we've mentioned before with apple Way, are
designed to isolate, manipulate, and control members. Dylan, the number
one that you mentioned, so we have to talk about
(36:23):
it is love bombing, right, and love bombing is a
tactic of overwhelming a potential recruit with attention, affection, praise.
This unconditional positive regard fosters a feeling of acceptance, making
the recruit more susceptible to influence and less likely to
question the group's motives. The initial love bombing phase creates
(36:43):
a strong emotional attachment that can make it difficult for
individuals to leave later on. And like I said, that's
probably the number one thing that's going to keep me
from joining your group.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Get away from me.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I got in my face unless you've got cupcakes. Cults
often isolate members from family, friends in the outside world,
both physically and psychologically. This isolation reinforces dependence on the
group for information and support, preventing outsiders from challenging the
cult's teachings or revealing any contradictions that does seem to
(37:16):
be like the number and all the cults that I've
been researching for us to discuss, that definitely seems to
be like a top thing that they do is they
isolate you.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
They have to do that. I mean, they have to
do that to be successful. That's the way I view it.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Recruits are typically asked to make small commitments at first,
which gradually escalate to more significant sacrifices or unusual behaviors.
This gradual escalation uses the psychological principle of foot in
the door, where minor acts of compliance kind of increase
the likelihood of accepting more extreme demands, often without members
(37:54):
even realizing the extent of their transformation. And I think
that's something that we as a whole kind of miss
when we're like, how the hell does this happen? It's
not just an overnight no, like you're all in it, right,
I mean, it is a gradual process. No, it takes
a while to get a recruit fully immersed.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Some people stay in colts or these settings for decades.
They're you know, almost their entire adult life. I mean
at first they're going to ask you to just maybe
change your schedule or to like volunteer some time they're
not going to open up with liquidate, liquidate your entire
estate and give it all to those I.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Need you to give me your grandma's diamond ring.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
They don't open up with that at first. It's small things,
you know, just hey, will you help us do this,
or will you, you know, help help buy this one
little small item, or you know, we can work together,
or we can figure this out. And then next thing,
you know, you know, you're knee.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Deep in they're laying their hands on you.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
And yeah, yeah, they're healing.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Row and you're ass in a prayer circle healing you
inst Oh I'm not apple white because they were celibate.
Oh yeah, it wasn't. They weren't given any sexual healings. Now.
Cults frequently use indoctrination practices to reshape the beliefs, thoughts,
and behaviors of members. Techniques such as repetitive rituals, group chanting,
(39:19):
or meditation practices are often employed to weaken individual's critical
thinking and reinforce this group cohesion.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah group thing.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Cults foster and US versus them mentality, often portraying outsiders
as enemies or unenlightened. This reinforces the group's unity. And
loyalty while isolating members from external influences. It also fosters
a sense of mission or duty, as members feel they
must save others or defend the cults beliefs against a
(39:50):
hostile world.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Well, see, that's going to help in multiple ways for
the It's going to help the cult because you're going
to think you're better than other people because you know,
you know the real deal, they don't get it. And
it's also going to protect members from when people try
to reason with them about what's happening or what the
leader might be doing to them that's not right. Well,
(40:14):
they can just brush it off as well. They just
don't get it, you know, they don't understand. They're not
enlightened like you are. They don't see, they don't have
all the pieces to make it this decision. They just won't.
They don't understand. So it's a good thing for the
cult leader.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
A charismatic leader is often central to the structure of
the cult. They provide a figure to who members direct
their loyalty and trust, and these leaders typically exhibit some
common traits and employee specific tactics to maintain this control.
So let's talk about some of the traits of cult leaders.
(40:49):
As you might have guessed, narcissism comes into play. Cult
leaders often exhibit narcissistic traits, perceiving themselves a special or
divinely chose, which they use to justify absolute authority over
their followers. Their charisma and confidence in their teachings create
a sense of awe and submission among followers, who begin
(41:11):
to see the leader as infallible. Cult leaders manipulate followers
through emotional exploitation, often using members' personal vulnerabilities against them.
They may use guilt, shame, or fear to keep members obedient,
creating a sense of dependence on the leader for guidance, validation,
and purpose. Leaders often assert control over members daily lives,
(41:32):
dictating behavior, relationships, diet, sexuality, and even thoughts. By micromanaging
these aspects, leaders in still a sense of powerlessness, making
followers more susceptible to accepting the leader's vision as their own.
I mean, this is a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
No, it is a lot of work, but they need
a big payoff. No, I mean, you know they're not.
I'm just saying they're doing this for a reason. A
lot of work, it is, and it takes time, and
maybe even I'm sure, there's been instances where one of
these leaders didn't really set out to have a cult,
but it kind of just happened and they so yeah,
(42:13):
I think so maybe possibly. You know, women are more
successful cult leaders, are they? Yeah, and they typically don't
do the doomsday thing. Right, people are going to have
a better experience with a woman as a cult leader
and their overall cult experience.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
I mean I believe that, I think where we're natural leaders.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Well no, I just I could see that.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Your life is better when I tell you what to do.
It's true, right, Yeah, Look how happy.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
You are and I'm liquidating my state and putting it
towards the cult.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah I don't see. Still, no, this works. See you're
happier when I tell you what to do. Yeah, and
you love giving me your money, yeah, which I spend wisely.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Well yeah, you just pay the bills with it for
the most part.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
I bought you some pants.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
You let me have some pants.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Some pants?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
No, but you know the men. There tends to be
more abuses under men cult leaders, which makes sense from
you know if you look at the difference.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Well, no, it's true because when you think of a
female cult leader, they're typically not like, ladies don't have
sex with your husbands. But I'm gone, I'm gonna fuck
them up.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I'm gonna drag this thing across everyone. Ah right, snail
trails everything.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Oh why you be like that?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Well no, but it's true. And also it's typically less violent,
you know, as far and as far as the abuses
go and stuff like that. And uh yeah, So if
you're going to be part of a cult, what I'm
saying is shoot for a female leader.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Get your lady leader, Get your lady leader. Many cult
leaders claim special knowledge, divine revelation, or supernatural abilities that
set them apart. This can reinforce the followers perception of
the leader as uniquely qualified to guide them, increasing their
willingness to accept the leader's authority without question. And cults
rely on a series of sophisticated psychological manipulation techniques to
(44:04):
keep their members committed and obedient. Cognitive dissonance. Cults exploit
cognitive dissonance by creating situations where members actions and beliefs
clash lick. For example, they may be asked to publicly
proclaim beliefs they don't fully accept, or to make sacrifices
they wouldn't ordinarily make When individuals experience cognitive dissonance, they
(44:27):
often change their beliefs to justify their actions, leading them
to adopt the cult teachings. More Fully, cults frequently use
fear of punishment, guilt or perceived sorry, guilt for perceived transgressions,
and shame for personal flaws to control their members. Members
may be taught that leaving the cult were result in
(44:47):
some kind of dire consequence, like you're going to hell
or just some kind of personal ruin, right, like your
soul's not going to send to the next level.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Well yeah, and see, now you're in this insular group.
All your friends and people that you've been interacting with
or in the group. So if you're threatened with excommunication
from the group, that's your whole world's tied up in that.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
You don't get to ride the comment rite it.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
You know, you're losing all your friends and what essentially
your family, and you know that's a real scary thing
for some people.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
They also try to convince you that like your doubts
are a sign of weakness or somehow a sin, because again,
you're not supposed to question it.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I like I thought we was gonna have an open
discussion tonight. No, they're not up for that.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Many cults encourage or require members to confess personal failings
or doubts in group settings, creating a culture of self
surveillance and conformity. This practice not only eliminates privacy, but
also creates an environment where members police one another, reinforcing
group norms and suppressing dissent, which that would bug the
(45:55):
hell to me. I don't want some tattle. What are
you the hall monitor? I'll mess you go tattlete on me.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
We know some of these They have these sessions where
you tell all your deepest, darkest secrets and then they
basically use that against you to blackmail you. Big surprise,
And I would never be down for that. I'm not.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
No, I would have a compulsion to like make up shit.
I would just have I would have to tell like
the craziest shit that never happens, Yeah right, really imaginative.
So it would come up with some really creative scenarios
and people would be like, this bitch is crazy.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
But then they couldn't threaten you with them because they're fake.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Yeah I know.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, they'd be like, she don't even care that we
know that stuff.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
She's a serial cover. Cults are often able to manipulate
members perception of reality, and they do gaslighting, often getting
them to doubt their own judgments or memories, and by
distorting facts or denying previous statements, cult leaders create a
dependent and obedient mindset where followers doubt their perceptions and
(46:53):
rely on rely entirely on the leader's version of events.
And that's scary.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Well y'all, yeah, you don't even know you're doubting your
own senses essentially, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah, I mean to me, that's very scary, Like anytime
someone's gaslighting you and then you start to doubt, like
did that happen? Did I imagine this? Like what the hell?
You know? And that self doubt, like, that's very scary
to me. Social identity theory posits that individuals derive self
(47:29):
esteem and a sense of identity from their memberships and
social groups. Cults capitalize on this by creating strong group
identities that give members a profound sense of belonging and
self worth. Cult members adopt the groups of values in worldview,
merging their personal identity with the group's identity. This identity
fusion reinforces loyalty and increases the likelihood that members will
(47:50):
engage in self sacrificing behaviors, even to the point of
endangering themselves or others. And while the term brainwashing is
often used to describe cult en fluence, it's more accurate
to discuss thought reform or coercive persuasion. These processes involve
systematic methods to destabilize individual's sense of self and replace
(48:13):
it with new ideologies. So one of the big things
through isolation, Dylan is just breaking down individual's identity, whether
it's the isolation or exhaustion deprivation of some kind. Cults
weaken individuals existing identities and beliefs. By breaking down autonomy
(48:36):
and increasing dependency on the group, cults create a more
malleable state in members. Once members previous beliefs have been destabilized,
cults impose new beliefs that are compatible with the cult's ideology.
The new identity and ideology are often reinforced through repetitive rituals,
peer pressure, and that close monitoring. Yeah, I mean this
(49:00):
screams scientology.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Well, this screams any of any of that, I mean,
any cults. Well, scientology has all this stuff, all these
things you're mentioning down to a science.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Yeah, well that's why I'm like bro.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
I mean, and the whole thing with you know, you
leveling up and everything.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Costs money, getting the audit audited.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
The audits, it's where you are they.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Get the information to Black Melody.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, your deepest, darkest secrets and uh yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
And the constant follow up.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
And the self policing by other members, you know, the disenfranchisment.
You know, they turn on you in a heartbeat, like viciously.
I mean, what these scientologists do to ex members is
freaking crazy, man. I mean constantly buzzing you, following you around,
filming you, threatening you. I mean, I'll will be kicking
(49:49):
some ass, is what I would be doing.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, that brings us to culture, reinforcing new beliefs through fear.
Whether it's threats of punishment for disobedience, it could be repetition.
Like over time, members internalize the cult's ideology and view
it essential to their identity. So whether it's like a
sermon or group sessions or whatever, they almost make you
(50:13):
afraid to step outside. Well, yeah, if you're to question
it or feel like you could.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Leave, if you've wrapped your identity up into what they're saying,
then it lessens the likelihood of you questioning it or
changing because you have a lot of skin in the game,
you know what I mean, You're not just it's not
just their rules or stuff that you're questioning your You're
literally questioning yourself at that point, you know what, people
(50:41):
are less likely to do that.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yeah, And once a member has invested their time, energy,
sometimes these significant financial resources, it becomes increasingly difficult to leave.
This sunk cost fallacy keeps members committed as they feel
the need to justify their past sacrifices by remaining. Additionally,
cults may demand public declarations of loyalty, personal sacrifices, or
(51:05):
extreme actions, which further like members into the group and
make leaving psychologically and emotionally challenging. So, I mean, the
psychology behind cults, it's a pretty complex interplay of not
only like social but cognitive and emotional manipulation. I mean,
(51:27):
there's a lot going on. It's not just a simple
kind of black or white issue, right what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Yeah, And that's how you end up in these extreme
situations over months or years, and people don't even realize
how kooky what they're doing is. Or how they're just
keep buying the bullshit that the leader is giving them
when they tell them they can't do all these things,
but they're doing them. You know that they are doing
(51:56):
all those things. That's the part that wouldn't work for me.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Well, Dylan, thank you for discussing cults with here today.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
Gosh, I'm fascinated by colts nice, I truly am. And
there's plenty out there I don't know about, and I
need to keep digging in on that and searching it out.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Well, we're going to discuss them here.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
On Mountain Merers, Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
Yeah, so in the next couple of weeks. You know,
we've got a few more cults to talk about, Okay, because,
like you, I find it just intriguing.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Yeah, and it's the why and yeah, for me, it's.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Just like the psychology of the wine house. Absolutely all
right you Heather, Yeah, Dylan, don't forget guys. I'm going
to drop a link in our show notes today to
check out our merch store. We have some awesome designs
and spooky season is here. So if you're looking for
a great little, you know, fun spicy shirt to wear
(52:53):
to a party or event, black tie, fair.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Or to take off somewhere.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Yeah, we like that Mountain motored shirt would look red
a good crumpled up on the floor baby. Are you
looking for a Christmas gift?
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Or a not Christmas gift or just a really cool
shirt Thanksgiving gift. Make sure you check that out. And
of course you can support the show by joining us
at patreon dot com slash Mountain Murders Podcast.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, thanks to everyone for listening and thanks to everyone
for all the support. Dylan, Hey, I'll see you later,
alrighty bye bye
Hey, y'all, welcome back to Mountain Murders.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm Heather and I'm Dylan.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm haunted Heather.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oo spooky Heather.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you demented Dylan?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Ooh, that's a good nickname for me. I'm very demented.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Well, that's one way to describe you. Yes, yeah, Dylan,
it is spooky season. And you know, up until this point,
I've just kind of been like, I don't know, down
in the dumps or something. I mean, we had the
week without power, we haven't had internet for almost three weeks.
It's just been kind of like dragging us down right.
It's been really hard to get anything done in the dark,
(00:35):
and with no internet.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Service, we're just going through the motions.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, I know. So, you know, I feel like I'm
not in to the Halloween spirit like I should be.
But today you did something really sweet for me. You
took me to the pop up halloween store that every
that's very spirited. Everyone knows what we're talking about. And
we walked around a little bit and it really kind
of did hell help me elevate my Halloween mood?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Got you back into the spirit?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Did?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Plus I saw this really cool shit that I want
so you know, I probably shouldn't go back in there
because it's probably a couple hundred bucks that will get
thrown decor cool stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
But uh, I got it's too loud. They were blaring
music through.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Speakers too loud. Does that mean we're too old? No?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I mean this was disconcerting.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It was it was they had the Ghostbusters theme song playing,
and it was so fucking loud. I felt like we
were at a concert. Actually. I looked at you and
I was like, what are we at a Doyle show? Like, yeah,
my ear drums are melting in here, looks.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Like you can't hear the person talking directly next to you.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
No, it was way too loud, and I don't know
why you would think that people would want that in
a retail setting.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Also, you were confused about one of their animatronics, and
I have to say it was kind of an odd choice.
But he was a carnival barker and he wasn't particularly scary. No,
he was just kind of this big.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Bald guy six seven foot tall.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, and you were like what, okay, Like, who would.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Buy that three hundred bucks?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah? I mean it seems like an odd choice. Yeah,
because you have all this like really scary shit like
clowns and whatever, and then you've just got the carnival
barker guy.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I guess somebody thought it was gonna be a hot item.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, if you were gonna do like a freak show theme,
I don't know, but it was. It was odd. It
was an odd choice.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I just can't imagine they sold a lot of those.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Too many costumes. And I have to say, Halloween masks
have gotten really frightening.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, their next level.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
They've evolved.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I mean some of these masks look like professional, like
something out of a movie, and they're very expensive. But
they're so heavy that like latex and rubber. I just
don't think I would be comfortable wearing something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
No, I know that's gonna be one of those deals
when you're an hour in you're going to end up
taking your mask off and not carrying it around, Yeah,
because it just too much.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
But they were pretty badass. I have to give them props.
Are you excited for how.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, we're gonna make the most of what we have
left here of the spooky season and try to get
into the spirit.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I got some pumpkins. Oh yeah, I about pumpkins is
decorate nice. I got white pumpkin.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah. See where do they even grow those?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
They're heirloom pumpkins. I don't know, but they were a
little expensive, but I kind of liked how they were
oddly shaped, so I bought them anyway. Yeah, I love
a good seasonal gourd.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
You got a quality seasonal gord.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Got a good seasonal gord here.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I'm pretty sure them our dog and Renee's dogs, our
neighbor have they've peed on the pumpkins. Ah, so that's
that's nice for the neighborhood dogs.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
O pissy punk Dylan.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Since we are heading into spooky season, we've tried to
make October very spectacular for you guys, trying to keep
with like high strangeness creepy vibes. I thought, now, we
do have a regular true crime episode coming out. We
will drop that tomorrow, but I thought kind of a
little extra bonus. We did our true crime recrap this week,
(04:01):
but we could talk about some cults before Halloween. Ah.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Nothing scarier than a good old cult.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like cults are pretty frightening.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh They're terrible, Like.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Those masks at the spirited store.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, I'm just having if I was to have a
family member or something tied up in something like this,
and uh, what's so odd about it is? No matter
how much, it's almost like the more you tell your
loved one that this is a cult, they're they're they're
insisting that it's not a cult. And yeah, it's a
it's a weird situation.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I wasn't a cult one time. Oh yeah, it's called
roller Derby took all my time, all my money. It
was my life for some years. Oh I talked about
it's it's kind of like a cult.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It's like CrossFit.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Oh your friends are involved? Yeah, like you just start
hanging out with all the people who play. If I've
got any other Derby girls out there, then what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Okay, it's definitely a cult.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
But it was fun. And then I got out.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
You made it.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
I did. You're a all right, Dylan. So let's talk
about the heavens Gate cult. And I have a couple
more cults we're gonna discuss before the big day, but
heavens Gate let's start with that. Now. Do you know
a lot about heavens Gate?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I know a little bit.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I mean I remember when this was newsworthy. Yeah, this
was only in nineteen ninety seven, so it's not been
that long ago. Although we have some listeners they are
probably like, that was ninety seven, that was one hundred
years ago.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Well, no, but it was in our last time.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It was definitely something I remember from my teen years, yeah,
because it was a big deal. Okay. So the Heavens
Gate Cult, it was also known as the hall Bop Cult,
became infamous in nineteen ninety seven after the mass suicide
of thirty nine members in Rancho Santa Fe, California. The
group's beliefs revolved around an unusual combination of New Age spirituality,
(05:52):
Christian millennialism, and science fiction, particularly the belief that an
extraterrestrial spacecraft was telling the hell Bop Comment, which appeared
prominently in the sky in nineteen ninety seven. This tragic
event remains one of the most well known examples of
cult behavior driven by apocalyptic and UFO beliefs. So I
(06:15):
kind of have put together dylan an analysis of the origin,
some of the beliefs, the dynamics of the cult, and
then their ultimate demise. So we're not going to do
like a super end upth you know, four part series
on this cult, but just enough to kind of give
you a glimpse if you're unfamiliar with Heaven's Skate.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Okay, now, Heavens.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Skate was founded in the early nineteen seventies by Marshall
Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles, who later adopted the names Doe
and t.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
They forgot Raymi fosso lah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well they had they had great names anyway, Bonnie and
Marshall apple Bottom, apple White, apple White.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
You wish you had enough bottom, Yeah, you would wear
those genes, you little slut.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I have some of those genes and the boots with
the fur man.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I remember back when the apple Bottom jeans were cool.
I debated buying a pair, but then I didn't because
they were expensive. Okay, and I didn't have any boots
with fur.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
You're welcome. Take me back to two thousand and four. Now.
Apple White, a former music teacher, met Nettles, a nurse,
during a time of personal crisis, and both became convinced
they were chosen to fulfill a divine mission. They believed
they were the two witnesses prophesized in the Book of
Revelation chosen to guide a group of followers to a
(07:38):
higher plane of existence. Apple White and Nettles began recruiting
followers under the name Human Individual Metamorphosis or HIM, and
traveled across the United States, holding meetings that attracted curious
and spiritually searching individuals. They preached a message met a
message that come by and Christian eschatology. I don't know
(08:03):
if I'm saying that correctly, Okay, but eschatology with Eastern
reincarnation beliefs and the notion that extraterrestrial beings were guiding
humanity's spiritual evolution.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Okay, that's a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Well it is. But you know, Dylan, I think there
are I don't know if I would call them cults,
but maybe conspiracy theorists who buy into these ideas about
aliens and UFOs and that they're possibly meddling in human affairs, right,
like they're wearing human skin suits and they're Hillary Clinton
(08:40):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Well, yeah, I've heard those theories on Reddit.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, I mean in the like in the Egyptian culture,
you know, a lot of people point to the higher
glyphs and think or theorize that maybe the gods quote
unquote they were worship being were actually aliens, and there
are some very interesting things in some of the drawings
(09:05):
and sculptures and such like that. And then you take
into account the you know, building of the pyramids, which
is a huge task, and some people think there was
you you know, alien technology, which answers some of the
questions we have nowadays about how did they do it?
How did they manage to do that with you know,
ropes and pulleys and logs.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
That's racist, is it? Okay? Hear me out? I saw
this content creator describing how ancient alien theories is rooted
in racism because it's suggesting that people of color in
the Middle East and Egypt and Africa wherever were not
(09:48):
capable to build these yeah, and that we're discrediting their capability,
and so we have to use the aliens to make
it make sense to us because we're racist.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But the thing is, it doesn't matter what color does.
It's people period achieving these things.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Well, I guess I've never thought of that viewpoint, And
I was like, Okay, I guess you can find an
ism and anything.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Right, Well, it's just they happen to be people of color.
But it still blows my mind they were able to,
you know, place these megastones, you know, is as fascinating.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I mean it would take like years to build. Look
like the Sphinx and the pyramids.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
The stone comes from you know, five hundred miles away,
which you know nowadays might not sound like a lot,
but back then.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
It was still a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Nowadays, Yeah, you're moving these tons of stone five hundred
miles and uh, you know the math on the pyramid.
I've heard before that they had to be placing a
stone something like every five minutes or less to get
this done in the twenty years or whatever it took
to build it. So, I mean, it just it's amazing.
I mean it'd be hard to build.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
The difficult feet today.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Today with all the modern technology.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Well we see the structures that are built today. It's
very shoddy.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah. So I mean when someone theorizes that either they
had advanced to knowledge and tech, you know, techniques that
we don't know of nowadays, or maybe there's some lost
history involved. I mean, you can go five different paths
of conspiracy theory when you talk about this kind of history.
But I certainly never thought, oh, those brown people could
(11:24):
never do that. I mean, it's just people period. I mean,
that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
But you know, if you look for racism, you know,
through you through a racist lens, you view everything you're
going to see racism.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, I have to say I enjoy hearing different points
of view. I mean it does give your brain something
to ponder, to think about in a question, right, I
mean I like that, you know, I like to have
my brain working all the time and thinking about these
big issues and abstract thoughts. But I have to say,
sometimes I feel like people are really reaching for something
(12:02):
when it's not that hard to look for just in
something that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
A simple explanation, but they have to well.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, I mean, I'm like, you don't really have to
pull this whole thing like a string to be like
this is racism when you can just see, you know,
there's just racism that's like prevalent, like somebody spits on
you at the stores. I'm like, come on, dude, AnyWho.
I just think it's funny and I enjoy watching people
(12:30):
spiral out with their thoughts. All right, Dylan, moving along,
that aliens are racist, extraterrestrial evolution. These are some of
the core beliefs of Heaven's Gate that revolved around this
millennial and UFO centered ideas. So some of the tenants
here extraterrestrial evolution. So Apple White and Nettle's taught that
(12:53):
humanity's purpose was to transcend earthly existence enjoin a next
level or an advanced extraterrestrial civilization. They believed in the
existence of higher beings who could assist in the spiritual evolution,
so the next step would be, you know, instead of heaven.
(13:14):
Their idea of heaven is like this alien nirvana.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Well it's almost like they're viewing it as levels to
existence and you're just trying to as send to a
higher level.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Right, were you on board with the big headed little
gray eyes.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:29):
At heck heck, I love Mer's attacks. Rejection of earthly
attachments was another tenant. Members were expected to cut off
all ties with family, friends in society, material possessions, relationships,
and any form of identity attachment were seen as obstacles
to ascend to this next level. And this is something
(13:50):
I always find so interesting about cults is how they
always want you to give up your worldly possessions or
but it's usually like they want to take possession of
your stuff. Well, Yeah, they want you to donate your
money or your stuff to them.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Right, they'll preach, oh, you don't need these things. They're
not necessary for you to really fulfill your spirit. But
they want you to liquidate it and you know, and
absorb all the assets into their their cold or keeping
them up.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Ab Ale wide believe that ascension could only occur by
shedding human physicality. This would allow followers to transform into
these perfected extraterrestrial beings. You got to shed your human skin, Dylan,
got to shave it off, Bud, I mean, the flayed man.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
These The fact that you can convince other people of
all this is pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
It is amazing. What a talent, right, I really wish
I could be this manipulative. I'd be a great cult
leader if people just you know, listen to me. Right,
But I don't really have that charisma. I guess that's neat.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, and you don't have the psychopathy that you would
need to shit on people to manipulate them to this degree.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Well, I don't know about that. Maybe I just haven't
tapped into it yet, dyn't. In nineteen ninety six, the
discovery of the hail Bob comment reinvigorated the group's beliefs
as apple White became convinced that a spacecraft was hiding
in the comet's tail awaiting their souls. This would become
a trigger for the group's final tragic act. Again, how
(15:32):
does one like Marshall apple White or do Rey Me
whatever his name is, just he just gets this idea, like,
you know what, there's a spaceship in the tail of
this comment that's coming to save us, right, I mean,
like that seems almost like a hallucination, like maybe he
(15:53):
needed some medication.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Well, I guess that you just have to have faith, right,
I mean, it's not much different than the faith that
people have in many other religions. Right, there's no proof
of any of this. You just take them out their
word and just believe what they're saying is the way
it is. I guess I've never been able to have
that type of blind faith in anything really, And sometimes
(16:20):
I'm jealous of people that can because they can just
you know, they can just kind of get a warm,
fuzzy feeling by assuming that some other power is going
to take care of this or something.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I mean, I think when it comes I think this
is the part because you know what I mean. We've
discussed this on the show. We're not religious people.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
We're not religious.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
We you do feel like we have a moral compass
and we try to live in a way that we
feel like is right, like we know right from wrong.
But we don't subscribe to any particular religious practice. We
don't go to church, I mean whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
But I don't go around telling people they shouldn't believe
in whatever they believe.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
No, I want people to believe fully and wholeheartedly what
they believe. I'm like, that's awesome, because, like you said,
sometimes I'm jealous or like I just can't like my
brain just will let me do this. But I see
people who have faith and have this relationship, whether it's
Christianity or or some other religion, and they have almost
(17:24):
like this hope and this like a great great sense
of peace, like a grace and a gratitude. They see
the blessings and things, an optimism if you will. That
I'm jealous sometimes that I don't have that right Yeah, yeah,
(17:44):
so anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
They seem sorry, go ahead, these this cult is has
the earmarks of a doomsday cult.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I mean it's apocalyptic.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
It's apocalyptic.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
You have Uh, it just has that sort of New
Age and UFO element, but it's mostly I think an apocalyptic.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Well no, and that's what you have to have to
end up with the scenario you end up here where
what is it twenty nine people?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Oh no, it was thirty thirty.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Almost forty people took.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Their lives thirty nine, it was almost forty.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
A mass suicide situation. You have to have that deadline.
You have to have a doomsday aspect. If you don't
you do this or else if you will. And you
need all these elements to get this people in on
something like this for everyone to agree that this is
the only way.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
For You're right, Dylan, and you do need that deadline.
You can't always be moving the goalpost. That's how you
end up losing followers, right, Like if I've seen these
groups that are like, oh, the end of time's coming
on this day, and then it doesn't happen, and then
they're like, oh, well it's this day, and they just
keep pushing these dates back, and you know, finally after
a decade their members are like no and.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Just leave, right, And you got to say, you got
to hand it to these people.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
They you got to adhere to the deadline.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
They went with it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
You've got to meet the deadline head on. One of
the interesting facets of this cult, in my opinion, Dyling
is their strict lifestyle and structure. Members were required to
adapt these certain lifestyle habits, which included celibacy, minimal personal expression,
a uniform code of dress, and some of the mail
(19:27):
members were even castrated to suppress their sexual desires.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So basically what they were going after was it was
a transhumanism in my opinion, to a transcend into another
like a yeah, or level of being an energy plane
if you want, that makes sense, right, And they shot
for like almost an androgynous kind of a very nondescript
(19:54):
the clothes they wore. They started to referring to each
other as like almost likearacters on a star Trek ship,
you know, like you're the commander, I'm the lieutenant, and
the number, you know, and it's very strange. And they
want to eat plain food. They I mean, they were taking.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
All that don't enjoy any worldly pleasures.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Right, it was the only way to get themselves ready
to you know, move on to this next life.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So when the waiter comes over and it is like,
would you like extra cheese. Apple White was.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Like, no cheese for you, no cheese.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
No, You're gonna have your lasagna plane with.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
No salt, no pepper, no Italian seasoning.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's just the noodles, right, no cheese. Apple White's charisma
and deep convictions were key factors and maintaining controller of
the group. His leadership seemed to rely on three primary mechanisms,
one of those being isolation and group think. Members lived communally,
creating a close, looped environment in which critical thinking and
(20:53):
outside perspectives were limited. This isolation reinforced apple White's teachings
and discouraged dissent, which I think that's a pretty key
part of most cults. I think they want to alienate you.
Well that, yeah, there are many outside thoughts.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, they wanted to be insular. They wanted to be closed,
and you don't want to outside influences. No one else's,
you know, no one in your family or friends. You're
not going to run by what the cult leader told you.
They don't want other people's opinions because they don't value
them in the least a bit, and it's only going
to get in the way of them getting these people.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
To do what they want there was definitely an authoritarian hierarchy.
Apple White positioned himself as the direct link to the
next level, casting himself as an unquestionable authority. With Nettle's
death in nineteen eighty five, apple White's role as the
group's leader became more authoritative and isolated as he assumed
(21:51):
control over every aspect of members' lives. There was a
lot of emotional and psychological manipulation as well. Members were
hold that self sacrifice, suppression of personal identity, and adherence
to Applewhite's teachings were necessary for salvation. Disobedience was equated
with moral and spiritual failure, intensifying the psychological pressure to conform.
(22:16):
So in nineteen ninety seven, with the appearance of the
hail Bop Comment, this provided the final catalyst for Heaven's
Gates end. Apple White proclaimed that the time had come
for them to graduate from their earthly bodies, which they
viewed as mirror vehicles. The group believed that by committing suicide,
their souls would be freed to join the spacecraft trailing
(22:40):
the comment. This mass suicide was meticulously planned and carried
out in shifts over three days. Members ingested a mixture
of barbituates, and vodka, secured plastic bags over their heads
to hasten exphyxiation, and then they lay down in their
bunk beds covered in purple cloth. Each member wore identical
(23:01):
clothing and the same Nike sneakers. Apple White was among
the last to die, with two followers remaining to help
him and clean up before taking their own lives. Now, Dylan,
as trivial as it is, these Nike sneakers, that was
like such headline news back when the story broke. Oh, yeah,
(23:23):
everybody was just sort of blown away, not by the
colt or like this, but they were like, oh my gosh.
They were all wearing matching Nikes.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, they all had a fresh pair of Nikes on.
And actually Nike discontinued that shoe after this, they did. Yeah,
which makes these shoes very valuable. Really, I didn't know
that the sneaker head market.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Huh is that really what they're calling? Or are you
fucking with me?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
No, I'm not fucking with you. They're they're very uh.
I think it's a very uh early on iteration of
air force ones if I'm not mistaken. And no, they're
very very valuable.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I vaguely remember didn't they have like a specific color scheme.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
They were just white. It's just your basic white. They
had orange with uh. I feel like they were white
with just a black the black swoosh, but I could
be wrong. I don't know, But yeah, Niki discontinued them
after all this headlines, you know, because like you.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Said, you're right, they're black with a white swoosh.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, black with a white swoosh.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Okay, They're actually a pretty basic, very basic shoe, basic shoes.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
There were a cheap shoe.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, I thought they were more exciting than.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
There was nothing special about them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And just a picture of the shoe Instagram for folks
to check out.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I think that's one reason Niki didn't have a problem
just you know, moving away from that shoe because it
got connected to the story.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Kind of just looks like a shoe your dad would.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Wear, and it was a big like you said, to
cut the grass. People talk more about the shoe than
the fact that, unfortunately, thirty nine people took their own lives.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
This is what happened. They discontinued this shoe and then
your dad had to move on to get the white
new balances to cut the grass in.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, so this call, actually, you know affected pop culture,
You're right.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
The discovery of the body shocked the world, sparking intense
media coverage and this public fascination with cults and apocalyptic beliefs.
It highlighted several important aspects about cult psychology. Many cult
members are initially vulnerable or searching for a greater purpose.
Heaven's Gate appealed to individuals looking for spiritual fulfillment outside
(25:28):
of mainstream religious and society. Apple White's personality was central
to the group's cohesion. His authority, combined with his apocalyptic narrative,
convinced followers to relinquish their personal autonomy. The group's communal
lifestyle fostered groupthink and discourage members from questioning or challenging beliefs,
(25:48):
which can be common in high control religious or ideological groups.
And then the apocalyptic thinking, particularly when combined with this
charismatic leadership, can drive individuals to stream actions in the
belief that they are fulfilling a divine or cosmic purpose.
Heaven's Gate remains a significant case study for understanding cult
(26:10):
dynamics and dangers of charismatic authoritarian leaders who isolate and
psychologically manipulate their followers. The group's actions have served as
a cautionary tale and understanding the vulnerabilities that can lead
people into cults. Sociologists, psychologists, and theologians have studied Heaven's
(26:32):
Gate to better understand the appeal of that millennionarian that
millennium idea people were so obsessed with the year two thousand,
I don't know why, and the apocalyptic beliefs, just to
help develop methods for controlling I guess individuals and how
(26:54):
to help them disengage from high control groups.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, in this case, apple Bottom.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Apple White, apple Bottom, I like that apple White.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Actually believed his own bullshit. He was a true believer too.
This wasn't a case where we've seen many times where
the cult leaders are telling people all these things, but
they're just using all that to enrich themselves in various ways.
Have you know, all these sexual partners and get to
do all these things and be treated like a basically
(27:26):
a god on earth. He really believed it, and he
went through it with you know, he went through with
the plan with the plan and you know, along with
his followers. So I think that's interesting in this case.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Well, something that else that's pretty interesting in this case.
Dylan is that today Heavensgate's website remains active. It's maintained
by former members who did not participate in the suicide.
So this continued presence acts as a historical record and
reminder of the consequences of extreme beliefs when combined with
social isolation and unquestioning loyalty to a leader. Very strange
(28:04):
to still have this website up and at them, huh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
And they had a website, you know, back when hardly
anybody had a website, you know what I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Saying, nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, I wonder if this was
like a Geocity's angel Fire website.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I don't know, Dylan.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Let's talk a little bit about the psychology behind cults
just in general. I think it's fascinating. It's a pretty
complex blending of elements. You have social psychology, individual vulnerability,
group dynamics, and cognitive manipulation. Cults, whether they're religious, spiritual,
(28:40):
or ideological, exploit human needs for belonging, certainty, and purpose,
and by understanding the psychological processes that lead people to
join and stay in cults, we can gain insight into
the mechanisms that allow individuals to become deeply loyal to
organizations often demanding extreme obedience and sacrifice. So let's talk
(29:01):
about some of the factors that make cults so powerful
and compelling. I think a lot of us are deeply
interested or want to know more about cults because of
this very reason. The psychology behind cults. How can someone
(29:21):
fall prey to this?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Like?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
What type of person? How does this happen? Well, you
seem to be the big questions that we ask.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, and it doesn't happen overnight. It slowly happens. These
leaders get these people to keep making concessions and changes
in their lives. And I know from being in a
toxic relationship, but I had to I mean, this is
a form of a toxic relationship in my opinion. I
had to get outside of that relationship to see how
(29:50):
fucking horribly bad it was.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
You see what I'm saying now, When the abnormal is
your normal, but you don't know any better, y' all
you know is the dysfunct.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Knowing it slowly becomes that way, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
So, like I think of children that are born into cults,
were born into these religious schools. Yep, if you're taught
that your whole life that's all you've ever known.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, that's all you know.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It's hard to break away from these ideas.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It's no surprise or I mean, that's just that's how
if you were being if you grew up being taught
this told this, you don't know any better or you
don't know any different. So it's just how normal life is,
you know.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
What makes me think of And I don't know why
this just popped in my head, but like Warren Jeff's
the polygamist, and you know, I think he's in prison
now or was in prison.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I think he's still in prison.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
But you know, here this guy is, and he has
all these wives, and many of them are young, very
young children. Let's be honest, a twelve year old's child,
twelve fourteen, and he's got thirty wives. And I'm always
just blown away by like, how do you you stay
in this life? And you're one of twenty nine thirty
(31:06):
wives and you're having baby number eighty for this person.
I mean, it's just so crazy, right, But if you
were born into that, that's all you ever know, and
you don't have the means to leave, or you don't
know anyone outside. Well, yeah, and you're this polygamous sect
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, you don't have anybody saying, hey, wait a minute,
what's happening, that's weird or that's not right, or you know,
asking any questions because it's your normal. You're insulated from
the outside world.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
So let's talk about some of the things that get
people into cults. There is personal vulnerabilities which make individuals
more susceptible to cult influence, though anyone can be vulnerable
under the right circumstances. A lot of times, I guess
through studies a psychologist and whatnot have determined that personal
(31:58):
crisis or life trends often is a big factor. People
are more likely to join cults if they're in a
periodive crisis or a major life transition, like if you
have a death of a loved one or a divorce,
a big move, maybe the loss of a job. Those
(32:18):
transitions often involve a loss of identity and stability, which
cults exploit by offering a sense of purpose and belonging.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, if you literally have nowhere else to go, and
these people are because you know, they're gonna give you
the love bomb up front, They're gonna go, oh yeah, hey,
you know, come here. You know I think that was.
You almost saw rising cults during like the sixties and
stuff because people had like the free love movement and
the whole kind of ideals of the hippie movement. You know,
(32:48):
of a communal living, right, and but do you have
nowhere else to go or nothing really going on in
your life and you have these people as a group
of people are super nice to you. Everybody's you know,
super friendly, and they're telling you they're maybe they're blowing
you up, they're making you feel good about yourself, and
we'll just all live together, work together, no big deal.
I could see someone getting sucked in if they're in
(33:11):
like a big transitional period in their life. Absolutely it
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
But you know, Dylan, the sad part is if somebody
was trying to love them me, that would turn me off.
See my trauma is like I'm not out seeking love
and validation. I would automatically be like, get out of
my face. If somebody was trying to be nice to me, Well,
what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Well, everybody's different, you know, and I don't think me
and you we've said this before, and we've caught you know,
some blowback from listeners. But we're I don't think we're
wired to where we would get sucked into a cult.
And that's because we I think it's because with the
kind of households, chaotic households we grew up in, and
our bullshit meters are pretty good.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Time somebody is overly nice to me.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, well, I like, yeah, that makes me suspicious, automatically
suspicious and doubtful and feel like there's something wrong with you, Like.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
How dare you be so friendly to me?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
But if you know things have went differently in our
lives and childhoods, you know, we may be more susceptible
to this type of thing. You know. I just think
we're wired. We're the last people. The way we are,
the way we think and react to things. It's just
like that, we're the opposite for a good cult member,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, I know. I was just actually thinking, Hell, there's
something wrong with me, because anytime anybody's overly friendly or
nice or invites me to do something or become part
of their group and they're really super friendly, and there's
no reason in the world I should have an issue
with this person because they're hitting all the marks of
like just the sweetest person ever. That like deters me, well, yeah,
(34:55):
I want somebody who's just like you can come if
you want. I don't care if you tell like.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Okay, maybe that's the cult that gets you.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, the one that's disinterested in me.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, it's like, well are you still here.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
It's like a reverse cycle because I have oppositional defiance.
So if you're telling me like don't come, I'm like
all right, I'll be there.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Humans are inherently social creatures, and the need for belonging
is powerful. Cults often provide an inclusive, family like community,
offering a sense of belonging that many find comforting, particularly
those who feel alienated or lonely. Many cults recruit, I'm sorry.
Recruits are in search of deeper meaning or purposes in life.
Often they're dissatisfied with traditional belief systems or societal norms.
(35:39):
Cults offer compelling explanations of life's mysteries, often promising enlightenment
or a unique purpose that is fulfilling. People struggling with anxiety, depression,
or self esteem. Those issues may be particularly drawn to
the structured and seemingly supportive environments of cults, which which
(36:00):
promise personal transformation and fulfillment. Once an individual enters a cult,
powerful psychological techniques are employed to reinforce loyalty and deepen commitment.
These tactics, as we've mentioned before with apple Way, are
designed to isolate, manipulate, and control members. Dylan, the number
one that you mentioned, so we have to talk about
(36:23):
it is love bombing, right, and love bombing is a
tactic of overwhelming a potential recruit with attention, affection, praise.
This unconditional positive regard fosters a feeling of acceptance, making
the recruit more susceptible to influence and less likely to
question the group's motives. The initial love bombing phase creates
(36:43):
a strong emotional attachment that can make it difficult for
individuals to leave later on. And like I said, that's
probably the number one thing that's going to keep me
from joining your group.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Get away from me.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I got in my face unless you've got cupcakes. Cults
often isolate members from family, friends in the outside world,
both physically and psychologically. This isolation reinforces dependence on the
group for information and support, preventing outsiders from challenging the
cult's teachings or revealing any contradictions that does seem to
(37:16):
be like the number and all the cults that I've
been researching for us to discuss, that definitely seems to
be like a top thing that they do is they
isolate you.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
They have to do that. I mean, they have to
do that to be successful. That's the way I view it.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Recruits are typically asked to make small commitments at first,
which gradually escalate to more significant sacrifices or unusual behaviors.
This gradual escalation uses the psychological principle of foot in
the door, where minor acts of compliance kind of increase
the likelihood of accepting more extreme demands, often without members
(37:54):
even realizing the extent of their transformation. And I think
that's something that we as a whole kind of miss
when we're like, how the hell does this happen? It's
not just an overnight no, like you're all in it, right,
I mean, it is a gradual process. No, it takes
a while to get a recruit fully immersed.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Some people stay in colts or these settings for decades.
They're you know, almost their entire adult life. I mean
at first they're going to ask you to just maybe
change your schedule or to like volunteer some time they're
not going to open up with liquidate, liquidate your entire
estate and give it all to those I.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Need you to give me your grandma's diamond ring.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
They don't open up with that at first. It's small things,
you know, just hey, will you help us do this,
or will you, you know, help help buy this one
little small item, or you know, we can work together,
or we can figure this out. And then next thing,
you know, you know, you're knee.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Deep in they're laying their hands on you.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
And yeah, yeah, they're healing.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Row and you're ass in a prayer circle healing you
inst Oh I'm not apple white because they were celibate.
Oh yeah, it wasn't. They weren't given any sexual healings. Now.
Cults frequently use indoctrination practices to reshape the beliefs, thoughts,
and behaviors of members. Techniques such as repetitive rituals, group chanting,
(39:19):
or meditation practices are often employed to weaken individual's critical
thinking and reinforce this group cohesion.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah group thing.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Cults foster and US versus them mentality, often portraying outsiders
as enemies or unenlightened. This reinforces the group's unity. And
loyalty while isolating members from external influences. It also fosters
a sense of mission or duty, as members feel they
must save others or defend the cults beliefs against a
(39:50):
hostile world.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Well, see, that's going to help in multiple ways for
the It's going to help the cult because you're going
to think you're better than other people because you know,
you know the real deal, they don't get it. And
it's also going to protect members from when people try
to reason with them about what's happening or what the
leader might be doing to them that's not right. Well,
(40:14):
they can just brush it off as well. They just
don't get it, you know, they don't understand. They're not
enlightened like you are. They don't see, they don't have
all the pieces to make it this decision. They just won't.
They don't understand. So it's a good thing for the
cult leader.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
A charismatic leader is often central to the structure of
the cult. They provide a figure to who members direct
their loyalty and trust, and these leaders typically exhibit some
common traits and employee specific tactics to maintain this control.
So let's talk about some of the traits of cult leaders.
(40:49):
As you might have guessed, narcissism comes into play. Cult
leaders often exhibit narcissistic traits, perceiving themselves a special or
divinely chose, which they use to justify absolute authority over
their followers. Their charisma and confidence in their teachings create
a sense of awe and submission among followers, who begin
(41:11):
to see the leader as infallible. Cult leaders manipulate followers
through emotional exploitation, often using members' personal vulnerabilities against them.
They may use guilt, shame, or fear to keep members obedient,
creating a sense of dependence on the leader for guidance, validation,
and purpose. Leaders often assert control over members daily lives,
(41:32):
dictating behavior, relationships, diet, sexuality, and even thoughts. By micromanaging
these aspects, leaders in still a sense of powerlessness, making
followers more susceptible to accepting the leader's vision as their own.
I mean, this is a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
No, it is a lot of work, but they need
a big payoff. No, I mean, you know they're not.
I'm just saying they're doing this for a reason. A
lot of work, it is, and it takes time, and
maybe even I'm sure, there's been instances where one of
these leaders didn't really set out to have a cult,
but it kind of just happened and they so yeah,
(42:13):
I think so maybe possibly. You know, women are more
successful cult leaders, are they? Yeah, and they typically don't
do the doomsday thing. Right, people are going to have
a better experience with a woman as a cult leader
and their overall cult experience.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
I mean I believe that, I think where we're natural leaders.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Well no, I just I could see that.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Your life is better when I tell you what to do.
It's true, right, Yeah, Look how happy.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
You are and I'm liquidating my state and putting it
towards the cult.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah I don't see. Still, no, this works. See you're
happier when I tell you what to do. Yeah, and
you love giving me your money, yeah, which I spend wisely.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Well yeah, you just pay the bills with it for
the most part.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
I bought you some pants.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
You let me have some pants.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Some pants?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
No, but you know the men. There tends to be
more abuses under men cult leaders, which makes sense from
you know if you look at the difference.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Well, no, it's true because when you think of a
female cult leader, they're typically not like, ladies don't have
sex with your husbands. But I'm gone, I'm gonna fuck
them up.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I'm gonna drag this thing across everyone. Ah right, snail
trails everything.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Oh why you be like that?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Well no, but it's true. And also it's typically less violent,
you know, as far and as far as the abuses
go and stuff like that. And uh yeah, So if
you're going to be part of a cult, what I'm
saying is shoot for a female leader.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Get your lady leader, Get your lady leader. Many cult
leaders claim special knowledge, divine revelation, or supernatural abilities that
set them apart. This can reinforce the followers perception of
the leader as uniquely qualified to guide them, increasing their
willingness to accept the leader's authority without question. And cults
rely on a series of sophisticated psychological manipulation techniques to
(44:04):
keep their members committed and obedient. Cognitive dissonance. Cults exploit
cognitive dissonance by creating situations where members actions and beliefs
clash lick. For example, they may be asked to publicly
proclaim beliefs they don't fully accept, or to make sacrifices
they wouldn't ordinarily make When individuals experience cognitive dissonance, they
(44:27):
often change their beliefs to justify their actions, leading them
to adopt the cult teachings. More Fully, cults frequently use
fear of punishment, guilt or perceived sorry, guilt for perceived transgressions,
and shame for personal flaws to control their members. Members
may be taught that leaving the cult were result in
(44:47):
some kind of dire consequence, like you're going to hell
or just some kind of personal ruin, right, like your
soul's not going to send to the next level.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Well yeah, and see, now you're in this insular group.
All your friends and people that you've been interacting with
or in the group. So if you're threatened with excommunication
from the group, that's your whole world's tied up in that.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
You don't get to ride the comment rite it.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
You know, you're losing all your friends and what essentially
your family, and you know that's a real scary thing
for some people.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
They also try to convince you that like your doubts
are a sign of weakness or somehow a sin, because again,
you're not supposed to question it.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I like I thought we was gonna have an open
discussion tonight. No, they're not up for that.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Many cults encourage or require members to confess personal failings
or doubts in group settings, creating a culture of self
surveillance and conformity. This practice not only eliminates privacy, but
also creates an environment where members police one another, reinforcing
group norms and suppressing dissent, which that would bug the
(45:55):
hell to me. I don't want some tattle. What are
you the hall monitor? I'll mess you go tattlete on me.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
We know some of these They have these sessions where
you tell all your deepest, darkest secrets and then they
basically use that against you to blackmail you. Big surprise,
And I would never be down for that. I'm not.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
No, I would have a compulsion to like make up shit.
I would just have I would have to tell like
the craziest shit that never happens, Yeah right, really imaginative.
So it would come up with some really creative scenarios
and people would be like, this bitch is crazy.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
But then they couldn't threaten you with them because they're fake.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Yeah I know.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, they'd be like, she don't even care that we
know that stuff.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
She's a serial cover. Cults are often able to manipulate
members perception of reality, and they do gaslighting, often getting
them to doubt their own judgments or memories, and by
distorting facts or denying previous statements, cult leaders create a
dependent and obedient mindset where followers doubt their perceptions and
(46:53):
rely on rely entirely on the leader's version of events.
And that's scary.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Well y'all, yeah, you don't even know you're doubting your
own senses essentially, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah, I mean to me, that's very scary, Like anytime
someone's gaslighting you and then you start to doubt, like
did that happen? Did I imagine this? Like what the hell?
You know? And that self doubt, like, that's very scary
to me. Social identity theory posits that individuals derive self
(47:29):
esteem and a sense of identity from their memberships and
social groups. Cults capitalize on this by creating strong group
identities that give members a profound sense of belonging and
self worth. Cult members adopt the groups of values in worldview,
merging their personal identity with the group's identity. This identity
fusion reinforces loyalty and increases the likelihood that members will
(47:50):
engage in self sacrificing behaviors, even to the point of
endangering themselves or others. And while the term brainwashing is
often used to describe cult en fluence, it's more accurate
to discuss thought reform or coercive persuasion. These processes involve
systematic methods to destabilize individual's sense of self and replace
(48:13):
it with new ideologies. So one of the big things
through isolation, Dylan is just breaking down individual's identity, whether
it's the isolation or exhaustion deprivation of some kind. Cults
weaken individuals existing identities and beliefs. By breaking down autonomy
(48:36):
and increasing dependency on the group, cults create a more
malleable state in members. Once members previous beliefs have been destabilized,
cults impose new beliefs that are compatible with the cult's ideology.
The new identity and ideology are often reinforced through repetitive rituals,
peer pressure, and that close monitoring. Yeah, I mean this
(49:00):
screams scientology.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Well, this screams any of any of that, I mean,
any cults. Well, scientology has all this stuff, all these
things you're mentioning down to a science.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Yeah, well that's why I'm like bro.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
I mean, and the whole thing with you know, you
leveling up and everything.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Costs money, getting the audit audited.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
The audits, it's where you are they.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Get the information to Black Melody.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, your deepest, darkest secrets and uh yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
And the constant follow up.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
And the self policing by other members, you know, the disenfranchisment.
You know, they turn on you in a heartbeat, like viciously.
I mean, what these scientologists do to ex members is
freaking crazy, man. I mean constantly buzzing you, following you around,
filming you, threatening you. I mean, I'll will be kicking
(49:49):
some ass, is what I would be doing.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, that brings us to culture, reinforcing new beliefs through fear.
Whether it's threats of punishment for disobedience, it could be repetition.
Like over time, members internalize the cult's ideology and view
it essential to their identity. So whether it's like a
sermon or group sessions or whatever, they almost make you
(50:13):
afraid to step outside. Well, yeah, if you're to question
it or feel like you could.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Leave, if you've wrapped your identity up into what they're saying,
then it lessens the likelihood of you questioning it or
changing because you have a lot of skin in the game,
you know what I mean, You're not just it's not
just their rules or stuff that you're questioning your You're
literally questioning yourself at that point, you know what, people
(50:41):
are less likely to do that.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yeah, And once a member has invested their time, energy,
sometimes these significant financial resources, it becomes increasingly difficult to leave.
This sunk cost fallacy keeps members committed as they feel
the need to justify their past sacrifices by remaining. Additionally,
cults may demand public declarations of loyalty, personal sacrifices, or
(51:05):
extreme actions, which further like members into the group and
make leaving psychologically and emotionally challenging. So, I mean, the
psychology behind cults, it's a pretty complex interplay of not
only like social but cognitive and emotional manipulation. I mean,
(51:27):
there's a lot going on. It's not just a simple
kind of black or white issue, right what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Yeah, And that's how you end up in these extreme
situations over months or years, and people don't even realize
how kooky what they're doing is. Or how they're just
keep buying the bullshit that the leader is giving them
when they tell them they can't do all these things,
but they're doing them. You know that they are doing
(51:56):
all those things. That's the part that wouldn't work for me.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Well, Dylan, thank you for discussing cults with here today.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
Gosh, I'm fascinated by colts nice, I truly am. And
there's plenty out there I don't know about, and I
need to keep digging in on that and searching it out.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Well, we're going to discuss them here.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
On Mountain Merers, Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
Yeah, so in the next couple of weeks. You know,
we've got a few more cults to talk about, Okay, because,
like you, I find it just intriguing.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Yeah, and it's the why and yeah, for me, it's.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Just like the psychology of the wine house. Absolutely all
right you Heather, Yeah, Dylan, don't forget guys. I'm going
to drop a link in our show notes today to
check out our merch store. We have some awesome designs
and spooky season is here. So if you're looking for
a great little, you know, fun spicy shirt to wear
(52:53):
to a party or event, black tie, fair.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Or to take off somewhere.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Yeah, we like that Mountain motored shirt would look red
a good crumpled up on the floor baby. Are you
looking for a Christmas gift?
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Or a not Christmas gift or just a really cool
shirt Thanksgiving gift. Make sure you check that out. And
of course you can support the show by joining us
at patreon dot com slash Mountain Murders Podcast.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, thanks to everyone for listening and thanks to everyone
for all the support. Dylan, Hey, I'll see you later,
alrighty bye bye
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