Maura Murray Part Two

Mountain Murders bring part two of the Maura Murray case. In this final episode, we examine more evidence and theories surrounding her disappearance. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Dark Cast Network.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Come to the dark side of podcasts.

Speaker 3 (00:05):
We have cookies, workers love wookers.

Speaker 4 (00:14):
On Wiki travel. The Pacific Northwest is best known for
its beautiful coastline, green interior, rainy weather, and spectacular mountains.
But because of all this, it's also the perfect place
to go missing. My name's Carmita and I grew up
in the Pacific Northwest and Portland, Oregon. I host a

(00:34):
podcast called Missing in the PNW. My podcast is different
from others you may have heard because I focus specifically
on two things. The first is that all of the
missing person cases that I cover are strictly from the
Pacific Northwest and Oregon and Washington. I know, the title
of my podcast shouldn't given that one away.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
The second thing is that my podcast focuses strictly on
missing persons from marginalized communities such as the black, Hispanic,
Native American Indigenous people, and the LGBTQ plus communities, you know,
the ones that get absolutely no media attention. Now, I
am not an investigative journalist or a reporter. I'm actually

(01:17):
a widowed mom of three who loves true crime and.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Has a passion for social justice.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
So join me in helping to spread the word on
these missing person cases and help you the voice for
the ones that are now voiceless. You can find Missing
in the PMW on all of the major streaming apps.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
As well as on socials at Missing in the PNW podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
If you have a case you.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Want me to cover, please email me at Missing in
the PNW at gmail dot com or send me a
message through Facebook Messenger. I hope to talk to you
soon and remember, have fun, but be safe. Is on

(02:09):
his way.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Devil is on his way.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Devil is on his way. Mother for God.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
The devil gonna make you pay.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Fall to your knees. Devil is on his way. Fall
to your knees.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
DEVI gonna make you pay, fall to your knees.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Devil is way. Hey y'all, welcome back to Mountain Murderers.
I'm Heather and I'm Dylan.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Are you auditioning for a Broadway show?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
It starts brad Ain't.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
Mountain Murders is here.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
To tell your true crime star rad.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I'm so disappointed. I realized earlier today we had an
hour forty plus minute episode. Yeah, first part of Mora
Murray And for some reason, when I uploaded to our
hosting site. It only uploaded like an hour, so there's
like an entire forty minutes missing from the first episode.

(03:10):
I replaced the file. So if you listen to the
first part and you were like, what's going on because
it just sort of abruptly ends, gosh, it's yeah, I
don't know what's happening, but I, like I said, I
replaced the file. Go back, listen to the extra forty minutes.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, because it turns out there's a lot of information
in that forty minutes you might need. So if you're
hearing this now, stop, go back, finish part one and
come back. We're sorry about that.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Technology frustrates me. Yeah, I know, and I don't get
it because you upload a file you think it's the
entire file, and how I don't get how it only
uploads like half of it and then gives you the
thumbs up like yeah, we're finished. You did it. Yeah,
and it's like half.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
We went ahead and edited half your episode out for you.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
So that was frustrating, and that'll only compounds with my
other frustrating event that happened today.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Tell us about it.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Oh my gosh, Dylan, you know, I'm like really vain
about getting older. And my face and wrinkles and hip,
very concerned about skincare.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, no, and I got look, before you say this,
I gotta say, you're looking pretty good lately.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
You're looking pretty goodnoids?

Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah, all right. So I go to the gym, I
swim my laps. I take a shower at the gym,
so I'm I'm not looking my best, right. I dry
my hair at the gym, throwing a ball cap, have
on my you know, T shirt, shorts, whatever, my post
shower clothing items. I remember my pants this time. Nice,

(04:43):
So that's a positive. I go to the supermarkets because
we've been dieting. And I promised myself if I was
feeling very unmotivated and if I went to the gym
and did my lapse today is I really was not
feeling the swim, but if I went, would swim my laps,
I could reward myself with like a treat.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yes, we often bribe ourselves to go to the gym
with a post gym treat.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Right. Well, I haven't really had much to nex to,
like a Greek yogurt, so I felt like, okay, I'm
already in a calorie deficiency. I can treat myself a
little bit, and I debated whether I wanted some chicken
tenders from the Bohunglays, but then I was like, hm,
that's really grease. I don't know, it's probably gonna make
my tummy hurt. I opted for a ruben, a homemade ruben.

(05:33):
So I go to the supermarket. I get my corn
beef cut, you know, over at the deli, my fresh
corn beef cuts, some Swiss, some RYE already have some
Russian dressing at home, a little can of krout. I'm
ready to go right go through the checkout line. And
I don't know if the lady just wasn't paying attention
or if she was purposely just being a.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Bit or genuine. I mean, that's the being genuine.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Well, I hope she wasn't being genuine. But because she
points to a sign that says on Wednesdays, senior sixty
plus get a discount. Ask about it, and she points
to the sign and is like, would you like to
use the senior discount today?

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Right?

Speaker 3 (06:14):
Well, I'm just taking aback because like I know, I'm
no spring check, but not to insult anyone out there
who's sixty, but I'm like, bro, I'm not gonna be
sixty for like another fifteen years, Like, why are you
aging me here?

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Right?

Speaker 3 (06:30):
I mean, like, oh my gosh. My heart sank into
my stomach and I'm like, no, maybe in like fifteen
years I can use that discount.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Hah huh. Yeah, I believe that person maybe was either
just messing with you, or maybe it's.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Like a cause she looked older than me.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Maybe it's an inside joke, Maybe she was confused. Maybe
I don't know, Maybe it's an inside joke amongst her
and the other cashiers. See how many people they get
with that each day. I don't know, but I know
that it affects did you well.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, I mean, no one wants to look fifteen years
older than they are.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
No.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
I don't think anyone's like, wow, I look really old,
you know older today?

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Gosh I'm sixty. I can't wait till look seventy five,
said no one ever, right right, So yeah, it like
was a real blow to my self esteem. So then
I came home and like ate my sandwich and sobbed.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Oh my gosh, there in a dark room.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah I know. I'm like texting my friend like, oh my.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Gosh, So here we are in the middle of the week.
This will be a little different. Heather could not wait.
She wanted to go ahead and get the second part
of this interesting story out. So we're doing that in
place of the midweek and yeah, I can't wait. Maybe
wants to do a little bonus. We've been you know,
we've been watching so much stuff lately, and we've been
thinking so much stuff, so many docks, some pretty good

(07:53):
docs out.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
And watching some true crime docs.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Absolutely, yeah, we're thinking about it, maybe discussing a couple
of them, you know, a couple of little bonus movie
club and we got the Movie Club. Yeah, I can't wait.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Well, no, we usually discussed docs on the Movie Club, Dylan,
and then we have our Halloween midweek horror films coming out.
So I think maybe you're a bit confused. Maybe you
need that senior discount.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, you know what, in this day and age, in
this economy, you should have took the discount, honestly, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
But then I probably would have like had to show
ID for it, and then you.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Know, would you or could you just use your face?

Speaker 3 (08:29):
Apparently I gotta do this, show her like the big
line on my forehead.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Look look at these arms. You think these arms of
a forty five year old.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Oh my gosh, are you saying I have the the
waterly turkey yard.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
No, your arms are looking great. I'm just messing with you.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Oh yeah, well she should see these legs.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
I think I got a liver spot on my hands,
so maybe that would get it from me.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, I know, I think I'm going to.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Can you even call them those nowadays? I don't for
those age age enhancements.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
I'm not really sure on with our Mourra Murray Parts two, Dylan,
when we last left you, I had dropped the information
about Fred Murray discussing the case with the press, like
he would speak to anyone willing to report on his
daughter's disappearance. The family reached out to multiple news stations,
television stations, just anyone who.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Would pick up the story, which is a common practice
you see a lot of times in these types of cases. Right.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah, And as I mentioned, when author James Renner contacted
the family about like wanting to write a book about
the case, like a true crime investigative book, a relative
told him that Fred was not happy about this, that
Fred did not want a book written about Maura's case.
And through my research I will say. I mean, you see,

(09:48):
no matter what it is, there's always going to be
like haters online, right, And there are all these little
like mora subgroups and little reddits and forums and things
where people really ream James Renner. They don't like any
of the negative or the dirt that he was able
to dig up. And a lot of people are like, oh,
he's just trying to like make it sensational to cash

(10:10):
in on the story. And I guess I have to
again play devil's advocate because that's just how my brain works,
is always like trying to see all sides of it.
And I look at it like this, a true crime
book on Mara Murray would sell anyway, right, because people
are very fascinated by this case and really deeply interested
in this case, right, So they're going to read the

(10:31):
book regardless. He doesn't have to sensationalize it. But he's
an investigative journalist, so of course he's going to go
out and ask questions and maybe ask tough questions that
people aren't always going to like. And in the book,
he also is very forthcoming with like his own personal
issues and things that are going on in his life.

(10:52):
While he's researching the book, and so I think you've
got someone who's laying it on the line, like they're
airing their dirty laundry as well along with the book.
So that just shows me I think he's an honest person.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Well, I mean, you've you've read so many true crime
books and you've seen it all. You've seen the uh,
the shiny, glossy version of the story. You've you've seen
very poorly constructed version, you know, books books that are
I don't know, it's like the uh you said, self
published the author talks more about like themselves than they

(11:27):
do the victims or the families or the actual story.
And uh so I mean it certainly, you could put
out any type of book, and like you said, it's
probably gonna, you know, be fairly popular, just because this
is a very a very.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Hot topic in the true crime world.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, a hot topic and has, like you said, a
big online presence and discussion. So yeah, but you.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Know, almost like a case following.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
This is one of those situations where people are gonna
have strong feelings, yeah, and they're gonna I don't know,
it's just it strikes me as odd when people, even
when they feel have strong opinions about something, but then
they're presented with new, seemingly real, accurate evidence, even if

(12:17):
it is to the contrary or what you believe about
the story or anything like that, they just refuse to
accept that. And I've never understood being like that as.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
An author, as a journalist, as an interviewer. He's merely
asking questions and getting answers. He has no control over
what the reply is, right, So it's almost like folks
are implying that he just made made it up, and
I'm thinking, well, then he would have been sued, right.

(12:48):
I mean, he's printing people's names in the book and
the quotes what they said. I just find that kind
of an interesting part of this case because I think
we just need to see the truth. We need to
see all aspects. It needs to be laid out to
have a better understanding of what was happening, what was
going on at the time, her state of mind, right,

(13:10):
what was happening in her life.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well, And I think that's very important. When you do
these deep dives into history and backstory, a lot of
times you'll say, well, maybe this is a lot of information,
but I think it's going to make sense in the end,
and oftentimes it does.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
It really well when you have a young woman that's
being painted like she's the perfect all American girl, but
then you learn through other information that she's engaging in
a lot of risky activities, right, and having almost acting
out in some type of way. I mean, I think
that's a very important element to the story that we

(13:45):
need to hear. I agree, all right, So moving along, Dylan.
Thursday afternoon, Bill and Fred go to the garage to
view Morris car. Now the garage is owned by a
local and have her hill named Michae LaVoi. He also
acted as the tow truck driver. So this is a
small business you've got, Mike. He owns the garage, he

(14:06):
drives the tow truck. Doesn't sound like he has a
large staff, right, It's just like a one man operation,
kind of hands on. Right. Fred is confused when he
finds one hundred and nine items belonging to his daughter
spread across the garage floor.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
So he walks in.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
The items have been taken out of the car and
are you know, laid out like displayed now, so.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
He's expecting to just find the car and all its
contents intact. And I must say, even though I think
a lot of the true crime fans know what's what
this is or what's happened here, I would find it
caught off guard. If you're not ready for something like.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
That, Well, yeah, I think it's a little bit strange.
But at the same time, you're complaining that law enforcement
isn't doing enough, and clearly they've taken the items out
and are trying to account for the items. Look through everything,
see what's there, what might be missing, document it right.
And so my understanding is like this was in Mike's

(15:06):
personal garage, not in actually the business garage, and that
they had asked him to store it there because they
wanted to move it to the state police barracks.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
So the more examination, the cops have done their thing
to a degree, look through the car, look through the items,
and Mike has left it the exact way they left
it when they were done right.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
So also the damage to the front bumper in the hood,
it's kind of like above on the hood doesn't really
make sense to fred er Bill. It has been widely
accepted the more was traveling east, but the side that
was damaged was not where the trees were located. I
guess where she kind of slid in. It was described
as a snow bank or like a snow embankment, but

(15:49):
there's also trees there as well, so they're kind of
trying to figure out, like did she spend like one
hundred and eighty degrees?

Speaker 2 (15:56):
That's what I was thinking.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, Also, the damage was kind of angled. There was
no paint scrap to the bumper, and they believed if
she had hit a tree, there should be some paint
scrapes like where the tree scraped. And I that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
To me, it does, But I will say anything can
happen in a collision. I mean the weirdest things. Angles matter,
you know, did she spin all this stuff? Was there
a snow.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
I'm no physics experts, right, I mean was there.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
A layer of you know, it could be the wind
facing side of the tree. There could have been snow blown.
I mean there's a million variables that could be a
play here.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
When Fred starts the car, it cranks right up, So
he's wondering, why did it more a drive the car
away instead of getting out and leaving. It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Right, why would you walk away? And uh sounds like
fairly harsh conditions, right, when you have a vehicle that's
still operable even if you have had a collision.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah, I mean the car's banged up, but it's not
completely trash. It's not, you know, totaled or anything. Cecil
Smith completes the accident report on February fifteenth. This is
like at the ten daymark. Another search is conducted with
cadaver dogs, but they don't find anything. There's no trace
of Mara. In another search, Kathleen found a pair of

(17:19):
women's underwear near French Pond Road. However, DNA will rule
out that they do not belong to Maura. But I
always find it very odd when there are random articles
of clothing on the side of the road.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
It happens in our little quiet neighborhood.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Yeah, I know. I walk rufus at least a mile
mile and a half two miles every day, and on
my walks I find the most obscure items.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Shoot, flip flops, sandals.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
I've seen a pair of women's underwear. I also saw
a pair of shitty underwear on the side of the road,
like somebody shit their pants and threw their drawls out.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Oh my god, I.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Was Yeah, I came home and told you. I was like,
I wanted to throw up.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
That's disgusting.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, and just to discard it on the side of
the road. Black, Like, where are you doing? I found
boots pants? I mean.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
You need to be like Tom Hanks and take pictures
of the one glove and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yeah. Story. Yeah, Like the other day there was a
random slide. Yeah, I know, it's like a Nike slide,
just in the middle of the road. Did someone run
across the road and forget their shoe? What happens in
these situations?

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well, I just picture someone somewhere walking around with one.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
Slide, right, or someone walking around and they don't have
their drawers because they're on the side of the road
in New Hampshire.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Now, I've got to say, if you have pooped your pants,
that's a pretty bad situation. Shitty situation, Dylan, And it's
the one that could call for extreme measures.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Yeah, nobody wants to drive home in that no, what
of gom okay Morris. Personal items are returned to the
family and they find this odd because the items could
be evidence, and also the police don't want to bring
in the FBI when the family.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Asks, they don't want the FBI and all their resources
and experience, right, Okay.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Okay, So we know that in a lot of these cases,
local law enforcement is often hesitant to bring in outside
agencies and they get into like a pissing contest or whatever.
Now by this point you have the local police involved
and the state police are involved, so maybe they think
they can handle it without bringing in the FEDS, right,

(19:47):
because again, they don't even know a crime has happened.
I understand why they don't want to bring in the FEDS.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Right, And I think a lot of times these areas
with smaller towns, things like that, or making the right
callge to a degree because they know the area, they
know the people, you know, and then you have outside
You have outside people who could can have big egos
coming in trying to tell you, hey, we're taking over,

(20:15):
this is how it's going to go now, and you know,
I could see sometimes it actually not helping an investigation.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Do we even know if federal authorities would want to
get involved in this case, because, like I said, there's
no evidence a crime has happened.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
When Officer Cecil Smith arrived at the scene, he said
the driver was nowhere to be located. There was a
seven minute disconnect between Butch Atwood speaking to Mora and
the officer's arrival. Over the years, people have targeted Smith,
he was harassed and the center of accusations. Smith will
later die by suicide. Oh really, Now, he did have

(20:53):
terminal cancer. But others have pointed to the fact that
this man has been accused of all kinds of involvement
in this case and harassed, and his name's been dragged
through the mud by these you know, armchair detectives.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
These web sluts.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Right. Oh, so it's a tragic end.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
It is a tragic end. And I'm sure a lot
of people say, oh, look, that's proof of some type
of guilt, But I mean, really, what is your evidence
against him?

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Right? And other people have said it's absolutely nonsense to
accuse him that he was involved, that he's really a
stand up guy and was a good officer, good police officer.
He goes on to become chief of police in this town. Now,
not long after he arrived at the scene, two sheriffs
deputies show up. Compounding the enigma of Mora's disappearance is

(21:48):
the weather. The evening was harsh, below freezing with compacted snow.
There were no footsteps heading away from the car as
we know, no path through the trees. Either Mora had
vanished into thin air or there was another person who
helped her. The saturn was towed without being processed. No
blood analysis inside the vehicle. There was no forensic sweep

(22:10):
at the time. But again, Dylan, they don't really know
what they're dealing with. These are just things that people
have pointed out, you know, as failures the police department.
They're bumbling to you know whatever. Now, Fred would eventually
make a request using the Freedom of Information Act to
obtain police records, automobile analysis, and video evidence. When these

(22:33):
papers are turned over, some of the information and pages
were missing. It appeared some reports might have been modified
or rewritten. There was information like redacted from some of
the reports. Certain timestamps didn't seem to mesh with other details.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Oh okay, right now.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
A week later, state police finally took up the investigation,
but by then evidence was lost or destroyed. The ATM
tapes showing Mora's file known movement was kept from the
family for a decade. Surveillance from a nearby gas station
was cleared before police were able to obtain it. So,
I mean, it seems like there was a gas station
very close to this ATM that could have possibly caught

(23:14):
her on camera, could have seen if there was another
person in the vehicle something like that, or if she
had someone following her, like a friend.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Now, I wonder why it would take a decade for
the family to see some of these materials. That seems
a bit odd to me.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
It seems that state investigators as well as the local
police were considering this an open investigation and did not
want to make some of this public for whatever reason.
And that's not uncommon.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
No, that's I was going to say, that's normal procedure
most of the time. If it's a because these even
the smallest details, even at the time, you don't realize
they may become important. They may be something that helps
break the case wide open. You just never know.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
Well, here's the thing, and again I'm just pointing out
both sides here. I understand the family wants answers and
they are desperate to find their loved one. They want
law enforcement to be doing everything possible to find her.
They think they are owed this evidence like they should
have a right to see it. It's their loved one.

(24:24):
But on the other side of that is law enforcement
who is like, you know, not really viewing you as special.
Like they're not viewing you as special, you know what
I mean. They have other open cases and they're not
allowing folks to see the evidence and these ongoing investigations.
That's just kind of normal, right, That's just like, why
would we give you special access when we don't just

(24:45):
normally do that well.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
And I also think this is why it's very important
in the very beginning or early on in situations like this,
even if you feel it the cops aren't doing enough
for kid, they do more, you shouldn't publicly call them
out because it's probably it's not gonna help, and it

(25:08):
can create hard feelings between lead investigators, family members, things
like that, and that can actually I think affect cooperation
back and forth between you and investigators. Yeah, I think
it's better to give them space and now. Yeah, sure
if after you know, things have calmed down and you're

(25:29):
kind of had time to think about things and process
and you're out of the initial emotional shock of these
things happening, if they're doing a terrible job, and you
know you're well within your right to you know, comment
on that. But I honestly think it can do more
harm than good, right, I mean very seldom is someone
who is actually being incompetent or anything like that someone

(25:54):
calling them out. They're not all of a sudden, Okay,
I'm gonna be way better now. It's just not. It's
just not gonna help.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
Show me another missing adult person case where police have
gone above and beyond and exhausted every possible method of
you know, research and reaching out to find evidence, in
interviewing people and spending a fortune to locate a missing person,

(26:23):
like it just doesn't happen. And again, I understand what
this family is going through, but at the same time,
like she is one of how many other missing person's
cases in the United States, police departments don't spend the money.
They're not going to go out of their way to
investigate every person she's ever known in her whole life.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well, no, I mean from the way the cops see it,
they found a car that was maybe in a modern collision.
They found a car locked on, you know, slid off
the side of the road in wintry conditions. Not that No,
I see cars. I saw abandoned cars on the way
to work this morning, broke down whatever.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
There's one of the end of our streets. I saw
some folks today hood popped up there on the corner,
you know, where our street intersects with the other. And
I saw them talking to the homeowner, nice lady that
lives at the corner, asking her like I could tell
they were asking her like, is it okay if we
leave our car here? Because it was in front of
her home, right.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
But I'm honestly, at this point, giving what they had
to deal with in the beginning the circumstance, I'm surprised
they went this far in the investigation because oftentimes, like
you said, you have things way more kind of abnormal

(27:47):
in situations where their pocketbook and all their belongings are
laying outside of an open door of a car and
a driveway. I mean, that's what that looks like an
abduction to me, you know. But and cops are still
slow to react. But yeah, so, I don't know. I
think sometimes people's expectation is just it.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
Doesn't meet expectations do not meet reality sometimes.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
And it's a tricky thing to even comment on because
it is I'd really hate to be in that situation
and I can't imagine how they feel, right, I.

Speaker 3 (28:19):
Mean absolutely, And I'm not trying to discount the Murray's
their feelings, what they're going through. I'm just trying to
point out because I feel like it's everybody so quick
to jump on their side and be like, wow, these
police are pieces of shit, right when I mean, if
you look at missing persons cases across the United States,

(28:41):
most of them don't even get this much into They
don't get this kind of attention at all. Right, The
family expands their search efforts into Vermont and Maine. Flyers
were posted at gas stations, motels stores, just hoping that
someone would recognize Mora's photo have her Hill send out
a press release calling more Burah an endangered and possibly

(29:02):
suicidal person, which upsets the family. They're very pissed that
these you know, this press release mentions possibly suicidal. Fred
is surprised to learn that police and Vermont are unaware
of Mora's missing person's status. In the next town over,

(29:22):
which is Lincoln, New Hampshire, they also don't know that
Mara is missing, and so he's just beside himself that
police have not reached out to these surrounding areas. Or
across state lines to notify these other departments of her
missing person status. Okay, again, they don't typically do that

(29:43):
right right now. On Friday, February thirteenth, investigators revisit Mora's
dorm room. Detectives used her away message on that ool
instant messenger AI AM, remember that, asking people to come
forward if they have any information about her. They interviewed
students in the nursing program, you know, who knew Moro

(30:04):
or who kind of like worked alongside her doing clinicals.
They do their little rotations, that kind of thing. Karen
McNamara had driven by the accident. She didn't think much
of it until seeing a news report a few days later.
That's when she phones police. Karen stated that at the
crush site she saw an SUV mark zero zero one,

(30:26):
and that she had seen the vehicle three different times
that evening. So on her way home from work.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
A vehicle that tags that number or it has like
a number on the side.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
I'm sorry, it's a police suv.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Okay, zero zero one. Okay.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Now, remember there's some debate about whether Cecil Smith was
driving an SUV or if he was driving a sedan. Okay,
all right, now she had seen this suv three times
that night. There has been a lot of this. As
I mentioned, Karen claims when she passed by this accident

(31:04):
that the suv was nose to nose with the Saturn,
which is not the same report that the neighbors have
claimed to see. The folks who live across the street. Okay, remember,
like that was right, Faith Westman. They see police pull up,
but they don't ever describe as seeing an suv nose

(31:25):
to nose with her car. Chief Williams typically drove that
zero zero one suv. Tripper Monaghan told a twenty seventeen
Oxygen series on Maura that he thought Cecil Smith was
driving a Crown Vic sedan on the night of the crash.
Like again, you kind of have this conflicting information, and

(31:46):
that SUV zero zero one had been pulled out of
a snow bank earlier that afternoon, which.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
Means it may not have been in service.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Well, I don't think it was that bad. I think
it just kind of slid and they had to just
pull it out like of a ditch. So there's some
discussion about did Smith park the sedan and then take
the suv out that night? What was he driving. I mean,
there's just confusion back and forth about that because we
have this one eyewitness who claims she saw one thing,

(32:20):
other people saying they saw something different.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, And it makes you wonder a whose version is
the closest to the truth, because it really is all
about through a person's perspective, and when you're remembering things
that perception perception.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
I mean, we know that eyewitness accounts are not always.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Reliable, no, and especially when it's a minor event and
you're trying to recall it in very clear detail.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Brain fills in missing parts.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
It does. Your brain really does just fill in parts
trying to help you out, you know, remember this thing,
and then you really start to believe it's fact.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Right. So Smith had conducted other traffic stops before reporting
to the crash site. A man named Dan was ticketed
shortly after five pm. Dan says that Smith was driving
a sedan at the time. A police suv, as I mentioned,
had been pulled out of a snowbank sometime between like
four thirty and five ten pm. Did Smith change vehicles

(33:27):
in this short time period from the sedan to the suv.
We have conflicting statements. We don't know it's confusing, and
so a lot of people feel that this is some
evidence of wrongdoing, or there's some kind of conspiracy going on.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Or conditions were continuing to get deteriorate and he decided
to drive the four world drive capable vehicle instead of
a sedan. I mean, it could be as simple as that.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
A witness, same Susan Champi, worked at Lune Mountain ski resort,
which is about twenty five minutes away from Route one
twelve where the crash happened. She was returning home from
her shift and drove by the scene around eight pm.
She said the car was positioned closer to the weathered
barn on the road, so not where they is out

(34:14):
here saying the wreck happened, okay. She saw a couple
people around the car, presumably Sergeant Smith and other personnel,
because again there's like a state trooper, there's a deputy,
maybe some fire personnel showing up to the wreck. I've

(34:35):
heard differents back and forth on this, so again I'm
not really clear on who was there, but there were
a few people, I guess, Okay. So she said that
the door on the Saturn was open while these cops
were standing around that she saw the door specifically open,
which is in direct conflict with Smith, who stated the
car was locked. The crash site was considerably further west

(34:59):
than had and reported according to Miss Champion. And since
we don't know what happened to Moura that night, every
piece of information and evidence needs to be analyzed, so
we don't know what is significant or insignificant. And we
also don't know if these eyewitness accounts are one hundred
percent correct. If it's late at night, it's eight pm,

(35:20):
it's winter. You know it's dark out there, right, it's
a rural road. I doubt there's street lights.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Now. Is there people that think this officer showed up
to this scene and did something to Moura? I mean,
is that what?

Speaker 3 (35:35):
I gather people who think that. And we'll get into
more of the theories later, but there's I'm not even
going to touch on all the theories. There are so many,
but yeah, there are theories that a cop is involved.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
And also with a high profile case or what becomes
a high profile case like this and enduring mystery, if
you will, people want to be part of it. They
go people in the small town air. It's almost like
the barn dance, you know, not a whole lot of
excitement in the area, and they want to be maybe
inject themselves in this or by saying they saw something

(36:10):
or truly thinking that they saw something when they remember back.
So it's so tricky when you get into situations like this.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
Another witness told Fred and Julie Murray that she'd headed
to town to run some errands on the night of
the crash. She also mentioned the doors were open on
the car, the second witness to report the doors are open.
So we have several witnesses who say the doors are
shut and more you know, it's not there when the
cop pulls up. And then here we've got people saying, well,

(36:40):
the car door was open. Again. I mean, we just
don't have clear information.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
And now I'm not saying it's impossible for you know,
the first arriving officer too. I'm not saying they did
to maybe do something inappropriate or something even deadly, because
I remember not long ago I heard again I think
it was a dateline. It was a cop I want
to say, in Alaska, and he would go on patrol
by himself, and he would coax women into his car

(37:10):
by offering rides or you know, detaining them if you will,
and try to get sex from them. Yeah, and he
ended up killing at least one girl, I know. And
so yeah, cops can be bad people. I'm not saying
they can't be.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
Oh absolutely, I mean we know that's true, all right.
So eventually the family must leave New Hampshire. They've been
there for a while. They are trying their best to
find mour doing everything they can, but they've got lives,
They've got jobs, they have a mortgage, they have car payments, right,
they have to get back to their lives at some point,

(37:45):
and that's got.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
To be one of the hardest elements of being the situation,
because after the initial response and everyone's you know, everything
kind of freezes while you try to find your loved one.
But like you're saying, life does go on. You got
to go back, go back to work, back to school,
you know, drop the kids off at daycare, and just
get kind of back into the routine. And it must
be a very hard thing for a person to do, right.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
Well, leaving without more was painful, and they can't afford
to stay there forever. Like I mentioned, Fred returns every
weekend after to search. He gets to know locals hoping
that someone knows something and will come forward, that maybe
if he can like ingratiate himself into the community and
make friends, that eventually somebody will slip up and say something.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Or feel feel obligated to tell him.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Yeah. Right, as days stretch into weeks, investigators and the
public were faced with a troubling question, you know what
happened to Mara Murray? Fred and family exhaust every possible
lead in Moore's disappearance, and again, I mean they're growing weary.
They're doing everything they can, and they don't seem to
be making any headway over the next few years. They're

(38:58):
official searches led by lawn enforcement, but most efforts were
due to volunteers. Several locals offered their services for free.
This was a great help to family because these people
who gave their time so selflessly are folks who know
the area, have grown up here, understand the woods, have
maybe hunted in those woods.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, and the one person like that, it's going to
be worth twenty people, and you know, professionals from outside
the area. Right.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Driven by desperation, the family tried collaborating over the years
with law enforcement, but mostly they were leading the charge alone.
Fred Murray has been called relentless by a lot of
people because he would not give up searching for his daughter.
Julie recalled on her podcast Media Pressure that her dad
repelled once into a mine shaft. He had no training

(39:49):
or experience whatsoever, but he was willing to do it
if it meant funding his daughter.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
The kind of dedication, I mean, it really is amazing.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
No, it's so sad. He's driven by this sadness and
this need to find out, even if it's the ultimate
discovery of say her remains or something, he just wants
to know what happened to his daughter.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
Well, it's a true testament that this family, and especially
Fred Murray love Maura and that they are willing to
do anything to find her risk their own lives and safety,
like go the distance. And that's admirable. It is now
multiple theories developed, but each was filled with flaws. There's

(40:33):
no real answer to any of the questions. And the
more we find answers, the more questions we end up with. Right,
it's just more mystery added to this case. As Fred
Murray began hanging out at local joints in Haverhill, he
heard some of the same names over and over again.

(40:55):
A persistent rumor is known as the Loon Mountain three
now Lune Mountain, the popular ski resort in Lincoln, New Hampshire.
We already had Susan Champion, she worked there. It does
seem like a place that employs a lot of people
from the area, maybe from multiple counties.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Loon Mountain is a ski resort.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Yeah, okay, it's a real popular ski resort. The night
Mora disappeared, three young men didn't show up for their
shift at the resort. And as I mentioned, you know,
this is a ski lodge that employs a lot of
people from the area, and these three men were scheduled
for a particular night shift. It sounds to me like

(41:38):
when I was reading about their job, it was kind
of vague, but it almost sounds to me like maybe
they helped make snow. Okay, you know, a lot of
the ski resorts, even if you get natural snow, they'll
make more snow.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Right to enhance the snow laser.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah. My uncle for years he was a rock mason,
but during the winter he manow he made snow, you know,
part time or whatever to supplement income because you know,
don't do a lot of manual labor out in the weather. Right. No,
and that's what he did. He made snow, which I
always thought was so cool when I was a kid. Now,
another rumor is that locals with shady reputations allegedly picked

(42:14):
up Mora. They were going to take her to a party.
This party supplied drugs, and somehow the night ended with
a wood chipper. Now, these are the horrific kinds of
stories the family has been hearing for twenty years. The
area where this alleged party took place in this wood chipper,
which I'm just going to let y'all use your imaginations

(42:36):
for that was searched by cadaver dogs and nothing turned up. Yeah,
and I guarantee you somebody saw Fargo too many times.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
If there was a Fargo situation that there's going to
be something left over for the dogs they hit on.
I mean that's because that would just be that would
be I mean, you'd have matter everywhere. I mean, meaty, Yeah,
it's bad.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
Chief Williams was as a drinker and on the night
more vanished. Williams was supposedly attending a birthday party in
Saint John's Berry, Vermont, in two thousand and nine, cecil
Smith pulled Williams over and he was arrested for drunk driving.
He resigned after being chief for eight years, and that's
when Cecil Smith was named the new chief. Now, due

(43:20):
to this information, there are theories swirling that the suv
that we saw was driven by Chief Williams and that
somehow maybe he crashed into Mora and then decided to
do something with her body because he didn't want to
be called drunk driving. And just as you can see,
these stories and rumors and gossiping, conspiracies just kind of

(43:40):
go It's like octopus, man, they just go in all directions.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, that's what you happen with long term public speculation
like this. But look that theory. The damage on her
car was nothing that would indicate a fatal car crash, right,
So I mean that's that's ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
Or that he did something he he grabbed her up
and put her in the car and then took her
off somewhere to save his own house. Yeah, I mean,
I mean it's not impossible. But again, it's like the
probability that she happens to be on the side of
the road when you know Ted Bundy drives a by
is it's not impossible, but it just seems like a stretch.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Well, now that is, and I do I guess this
may be one of the reasons that people are like, hey,
it must it must be connected to someone who shows
up on the scene very quickly there because there's not
a whole lot of time between first eye witness contact,
which you I got to I would typically trust people
who are near the scene, neighbors, if it's outside my

(44:44):
house or down the road, I would trust. I would
trust their accounts before other people's, just because that's what
that's human nature.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
It's driving by you mean, well, yeah, well I say
that because you're driving at night, it's dark, there aren't
street lights, relying on your headlights to tell you a story,
and if you're driving, you're going by pretty quickly. So again,
I feel like your brain could just be filling in details.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, And so it's like where did she go? I
mean that really is because if she takes off walking
with some belongings in a bag or whatever, I mean,
you got to imagine that at some point they rode
up and down the authorities road down the road to
see if they find her walking or something. I would
imagine that you would do that in this situation at

(45:32):
some point, and it's like, how far could she get
in those conditions? It's cold, it's blustery, it's dark, she's
an unfamiliar area, so it's like.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Probably dressed inappropriately. It just seems like she's gone jeans
and win her coat, but not really you know, geared up, yeah, thermals,
probably not wearing snow boots.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Was somebody following her? Was she driving somewhere and someone
she knows following her to that place as well, and
then she just hops in the other vehicle and takes off.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
I mean, that has also been a proposed theory. Now
since Maura disappeared at the beginning of social media, she
became the first missing person of the digital age. A
volunteer created a website with Mora's information and photos people
could send in tips. Over the years, there have been
countless sightings of Maura. I mean, there are folks in Quebec,

(46:25):
Canada who swear up and down and this is not
just one person, but like multiple eyewitnesses who swear that
Maura's living in Canada and that they have seen her
in Quebec and she's like living a normal life up there.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Yeah, but I mean, honestly, those sightings, I mean, how
many times have we seen that? In cases the people
I just know it was this person, and then sometimes
they're able to actually find the person. They just look
similar to the victim, or they look nothing like the victim.
So though, that's tricky as well.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
And early sighting was near Cumberland Farms, which is in Concord,
New Hampshire. A witness saw a young woman fitting Moore's
description Mau of the words help me. She was with
a large, older man who had white hair. Richard Focia
was another neighbor who lived in the area where Mara
went missing. He lived across the street from butch Atwood

(47:20):
at the corner of Route one twelve and Bradley Hill Road.
Now at the time, Forcia was living in a trailer
while building a new home on the property. So he's
got like a home construction and then he's like living
in a trailer kind of next to that. A few
months after Maura disappeared, Fourcia claimed that he saw a

(47:42):
young person on foot around eight thirty pm running along
Route one twelve, but this was around five miles east
of the crash site.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Richard reportedly told people around town that he said, this
is disturbing dyl unquote Maura was a good cook and
made jokes that she was in his basement.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Well that's not funny.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
For one thing, his property was searched with ground penetrating
radar but nothing was found. But again he's like making
these sick jokes. They're not funny. I mean, it's kind
of disgusting.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Well, no, it's totally disgusting.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Another blow was in March on March nineteenth of two
thousand and four, when seventeen year old brian A Maitland
vanished from Vermont. We covered Brianna's case previously. She disappeared
from a location ninety miles from where Mora went missing.
Some suggested a serial killer might be working in the
area of Vermont. New Hampshire Police announced they didn't find

(48:42):
any connection between the young women and discounted the serial
killer idea.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
So, I mean, this happens a lot of times. What
kills me is you'll have an area like, I guess
what's going on. Is is it ex where they're finding
all these bodies?

Speaker 3 (49:02):
Oh, there's sixteen bodies that have been found it was
like five in the last month.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, those Bayous or whatever.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Well in like some water area, somebody thinks it's the
Smiley Face killer.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
But yeah, yeah, and they'll they'll just insist and insist, Oh,
we don't have a problem. But then I mean, or.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
All the bodies that are popping up in New England
right now.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Ninety miles is a good bit of separation from.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
But if you recall Brionna Mantlin's Maitland's car was found
discarded on the side of the road in a very
strange position, almost like it had been wrecked. It was
like backed up against an old rundown house.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Oh yeah, okay, sign of her.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yeah yeah, so it is a similar mo if you
think about it. Fred contacted a former police officer named
John Smith. Like a lot of folks around town were
telling him, you need to get up with this guy
John Smith. And of course at first he's like, okay,
John Smith. It's like the most generic name, right, Like yeah, right,

(50:03):
there's really this guy around. But have Herhill Police Department
actually told Fred like do not contact him. Why, I
don't know. John Smith decided that he wanted to help
the family anyway, So he's you know, at first like
considering it, and people are telling him like, you should

(50:25):
connect with Fred and help him, and so of course
John's like, yeah, you know, you guys are probably right,
like I'm former law enforcement, I know the area, probably
could help. But then one day New Hampshire State Police
detectives show up at his job wanting to question him,
and they asked them, what is your interest in Mora Murray.
The detectives told him there was no need for him

(50:46):
to help the family, and they threatened that he could
be arrested for interfering with the investigation. So initially, when
Fred contacts him, Smith's just like very dismissive of like, uh, yeah,
I don't know if I'm gonna be able to help you, bud.
But then when he kind of has a change of heart,
like he's basically I just don't give a fuck arrest me, Like,
you can't stop me from helping these people.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Well, a, I don't know why they would want to,
and why would they go through the trouble of actually
visiting this guy and warning him off of helping or
contacting this family. That's very odd.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
He joined the search efforts anyway, and has been helping
the family for many years, he did not get arrested,
has never been arrested, and it really doesn't make sense
why the state police tried to scare him more intimidate
him away.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
If that's true, we got to say that.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
In June of two thousand and four, investigators with the
State Police showed up in Massachusetts requesting some of Maura's
personal belongings. The family thought maybe the investigation was ramping up,
but then they never heard anything else about it. Again.
Now they had those items in their possession, initially handed
them over to the family, and then they show up
months later, like, hey, can we that stuff back?

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
The family learned someone from London Daerry, New Hampshire, had
tried calling Maura on the day she disappeared. The call
didn't go through, but peened a cell phone tower within
a twenty mile radius of London Dairy. A long standing
question has been was this a person that maybe Maura
was planning to meet? Was she going to meet this

(52:24):
person in New Hampshire? Why would some random New Hampshire
number be trying to contact her on the day she's traveling.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Okay, that's a bit weird.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
At the one year anniversary mark, the family met to
tight blue ribbon around the tree at the crash site.
They did this every year until the tree was cut down,
which I think was only like twenty twenty one or something.
Another theory that kept surfacing was about a man named
Claude Moulton. Claude rented an a frame house about a
mile from where Morea's car was found. He did have

(52:54):
a criminal record, and around town he was known to
date much younger women, like.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Half his age, which is kind of weird.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
Well, I always find out it'll be a little creepy.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
I'm sorry, I think it's creepy, and I think it's
just I don't even know that's right.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
And it goes to show me like, if you can't
find someone your own age or within like your own
generation today, then that means that like you have nothing
to offer a woman your age. Well, and I feel
like older men who prey on like young, very young women,
it's because they don't really have to impress them and
they can control them. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Well, let's just say, anytime I've ever seen someone who
has this habit, male or female, but mostly male. Honestly,
I don't.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
See a lot of older women with younger men. I'm
just gonna float that out there. No, No, I think
more rare.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
They're not impressive individuals. They're not like super cool and
I don't know, they're kind of a doofy. They're kind of,
like you said, don't have a lot to offer. Their
immature Yeah, often very immature and just they don't have
their shit together.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
And you're like praying on a younger woman because again,
you she does like she's not I guess expecting certain
things that an older or that you're equal would expect
from you, right. And they're also easier to manipulate, control impress.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
I mean, I mean, you know how impressed.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
There's someone out there who's, like, my husband's forty years
older than me. We have the perfect marriage and it's
so good for you. But I just always find, you know, like,
a forty year old man dating an eighteen year old
girl is kind of gross to me. Like, okay, Papa,
if you're.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Literally old enough to be their parent, I think it's weird.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Yeah, I mean really well, I only get hit on
now by men who are old enough to be my
dad or my great grandpa, So I got that going
for me.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
I like, how you keep going up. You're old enough
to be my end self.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
Well you remember the like one hundred year old man
at the bar who was gybrating his like air humping
at your head in my direction, like trying to get
my attention. Yeah, yeah, he was ready because it's like
old sack was like right in your face almost. Well
now remember it was like it was it was at
your shoulder, but it was I had to do his
turn around and it was there.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
I just don't want people to think I'm presenting, you know,
my straight at this guy just taking this sack to
the face.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
You could have been.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
It was to the back of my head and my
defense it was b the.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
You were getting like wind, Yeah, this man's air hump.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Yeah, I was like, wow, the h fact kick on.
This is comfortable.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Yeah. I was like, just don't look over your shoulder.
You have to dust off the white pubes on your shoulder.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
No, he was very, very inappropriate.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
He was very active.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
Yeah, I mean he could move pretty good for an
old feller.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
And his wife was right there. That's the funny part.

Speaker 3 (55:55):
Of encouraging it.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Woman.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
Yeah, yeah, hump with that girl, you know it was.
And then his friend kept coming over and just looking
at my tits, trying to talk to us, and you
were just.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Like, bro, bro, your game is obvious, Like.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
Seriously had his head down talking to my boobs, like
my ears up here. Yeah, it was. That was an
interesting night. Like I said, I got that going for
me retirement plan right there, Dylan, get me one with
a one foot in the grave. Now, in two thousand
and five, Larry Moulton, Claude's brother, called the Wells River motel,

(56:30):
where Fred Murray usually stayed every weekend. Larry said that
he had some information on Maura's missing person's case. Fred
agreed to meet Larry at his home. Now this is
very strange, Dylan. When Fred arrives, Larry hands over a
rusted knife that he claims came from his brother's glove box.

(56:52):
This is a knife Claude had in his vehicle's glovebox. Okay,
Larry says Claude was involved in Mora's disappearance. Fred turned
the knife over to the New Hampshire State Police, but
they didn't want to take it, and of course this
confused Fred, like don't you at least want to check

(57:13):
it out? He mailed it to the local police department,
but then never heard another word about it. Claude had
gotten rid of his car, a red Volvo, right after
Mara vanished, and he moved out of that a frame
house as well. His ex wife reported that before he
moved out of the house, Claude ripped up the carpet

(57:35):
in the downstairs. He told her it was because there
was water damage. In two thousand and six, New Hampshire
League of Investigators launched a search of the residents. They
had permission from the owner. Now, this house had been
shuddered since Claude had moved out.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Oh really right, So whoever.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
Owned the home, like Claude's landlord, gave him permission to
go in and check it out. It had been untouched
since Claude had loft. They hadn't had anybody living there.
Cadaver dogs alerted in a small downstairs closet located under
the staircase.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
They found a piece of discolored carpet inside the house
as well. There was also a concrete slab that had
been poured on the sideyard and there didn't really seem
to be a reason for it, like nothing had been
constructed there and so it was really odd. And out
of place to have this concrete slab to.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Go through the trouble, a poor in it, yeah, and
not using it from all appearances.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
New homeowners decided they wanted to conduct an investigation in
the closet. Even after this initial investigation was conducted. So
these new homeowners were interested in figuring out what was
going on in this house, so they bought some luminol
and according to the homeowners, the closet showed blood, their

(58:53):
kids started having nightmares, and if the family eventually sold
the house and moved out, the murrays were able to
get some of the wood paneling from inside this house
was particularly this closet. It was tested for human blood
and DNA tests revealed the blood came from a male
and female. Okay, unfortunately the sample was too degraded to

(59:15):
link to anyone, but it was human blood and they
knew it belonged to a male and a female.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
So intermingled male and female DNA.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
Yeah. The family got permissioned to search the property with
ground penetrating radar. One spot seemed to hit, but it
turned out to be a septic system the concrete slab
When they, I guess were searching that area with the radar,
they learned this concrete slab had rebar in it, which

(59:48):
the family thought was odd.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Well, I would say it's a properly constructed concrete pad, right,
I mean that's a common thing to make a really solid,
good pad that's going to last. Or if you're going
to set something that's very heavy on it, all right,
it's going to help that concrete stay intact. But yeah,
I don't know exactly what they find out about that,

(01:00:13):
just because it had rebar in it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Yes, maybe they thought, like why did he put this here?
It didn't make sense. It's an odd spot. It was
not being used for anything particular. But if he didn't
want it to degrade, maybe there was reason for that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Oh okay, like she was buried under there. I don't know,
like in their mind as he went maybe overboard on
this pad, no reason pad.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Yes, okay. When the family questioned Claude, he claimed to
be out of town at the time that Maura went missing.
He was a truck driver and was out on a job.
Yet the odd thing is Claude told the family he
knew the exact spot where she vanished from the road,
and when asked about the human blood in the closet.
Claude acted as if he had never heard anything about
this before. He also refused to take a polygraph exam.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
Larry's daughter contacted the Murrays after he died in two
thousand and six. She remembered that her father and uncle
Claude got into a big fight right after Maura disappeared.
She also said that her father, Larry, would no longer
allow her to be alone with her uncle Claude, and
that anytime he was around, she had to have another
adult with her in his presence.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
All right, Now that's a bit strange. If this is
all true, it's very odd. Now I gotta say this,
claud guy, out of all the things that you've floated,
I don't know, it seems a little medy on this.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
He seems to be maybe the best lead, in my opinion,
if we want to theorize that someone snatched her up
or did her harm.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Right, because that, okay, some piece of shit that happens
to live in the area makes way more sense than
the statistical improbable of a predator or killer driving happened
to be driving through the area.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
And see right, because this is not an area that
you're going to travel unless you live there or have
some purpose, Like this isn't just I'm going out for
a drive on this weird rural road right where there
are very few homes. Uh, we're going to get into
this in a minute. But there's a private investigator who
spent some time on this road and you know, investigating,

(01:02:27):
interviewing the neighbors, whatever, and said that he sat at
night on the road and you know, in a couple
hour you know time period, only like eight vehicles passed right,
and he watched them all turn into various homes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
So there's no through travel.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
Right, not typically. So after hearing about the case, a
lawyer named Tim Irvin contacted Fred Murray and he wanted
to help the family pro bono. Irvin suggested the family
could sue for case records. The court request was denied.
They filed an appeal, but again the records were denied
in two thousand and eight. So this family is having
a really difficult time getting hold of any records about

(01:03:06):
this case. Now, the family did learn a few things
during court proceedings when trying to obtain the records. They
learned that four polygraph exams had been administered in the case.
A wire tap had been requested and that there were
also some grand jury subpoenas.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Okay, I mean, so that sounds like someone who's working
a case pretty hard, right, Yeah, Well, to.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Discredit the work that they've done the law enforcement has
done in this case, I mean, it sounds to me
like they've actually done a lot for a missing person's case.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Well, it sounds like they've done more than most.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
Of the time right now. In twenty ten, the family
organized a search of French Pond. It was over three
miles away from Morris car where it was located, butch
Attwood claim that the night More went missing, he got
into his car and did a search. Remember he's had
a couple of different stories right right now. The Quincy,

(01:04:06):
Massachusetts Police dive team came up with equipment to search
the pond. At the bottom underwater, a sonar detected a
quote uh or I'm sorry, an unnatural object. Using a
large arm flotation device, they were able to lower into
the pond and discover it was a three x five object,

(01:04:29):
but the water was so murky at the bottom that
their equipment could not see it, so they needed to
get some other, like more advanced equipment. When they went
back to search again, which was a few months later.
The object was gone. What now, this is what's very
strange about this Dylan. During the first search, while this

(01:04:51):
dive team is out, you know, several family members are
there as well, and some volunteers like watching, you know,
the dive team work. They noticed that there were two
game and wildlife trucks parked nearby, and they could hear
the game wardens kind of in the woods around them,

(01:05:11):
close enough that jury Julie Murray could hear them on
their radios like talking about like, yeah, they're out here,
Yeah they got something, you know, like she could hear
them say, so they were like spine on this search.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Oh that's weird now, like you say, Devil's advocate. Could
be they're just curious, right, they might know of this
case obviously, and they're like, wow, I can't you know, Okay,
they're searching this pond. And maybe they were just being
voyeuristic if you will, But I got.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
But you could just walk over and say like, hey,
what are you guys doing and then stand around and watch, right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
I mean, I don't think they're gonna like.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
Shoe you away. They had volunteers there, just random people
from the community watching this search happen.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Yeah, So to be off in the woods and kind
of you know, trying to watch undetected seems weird.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Yeah, it was almost like the dive team was under
surveillance by these wildlife officers.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Now they really had a three by five object and
then they come back and it's gone. That's that's weird.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
Well, some folks think that the fish and Wildlife or
whoever came in and scooped whatever that was up. I mean,
it's really weird.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Well, everybody's been a suspect.

Speaker 3 (01:06:40):
Let's talk more about the nineteen ninety six Saturn. Now,
after it was sitting in michae Lavoy's garage, it was
returned to the family and then after several months, the
state police seized the vehicle once more. A forensic investigator
analyzed the car and determined there was additional bumper damage
from moving the car. The gas tank was at the time,
so Mara had stopped somewhere to buy gas before she disappeared.

(01:07:05):
Vehicles also have a black box like aircrafts. Did you
know that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Yeah, they have a little brain box in there and
it can give you all kinds of information speed. It
sometimes record impact.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
Yeah. See, I didn't know that, but it's called a
sensing diagnostic module that records information. The Saturn went off
the roadway along the eastbound shoulder of Route one twelve,
just past this barn. This was the forensic guy's conclusion.
The first recorded action was likely when the car slipped
into the ravine or snowbank, as it's been called, and

(01:07:40):
the other report indicated that the car had hit like
a tree or an object. The high beams were on
at the time and the driver had not been wearing
a seat belt. Mora was always known to wear a
seat belt, so her family found that odd. After air
bag deployment, someone attempted to start the car around seven times,
had started it at the garage one time, so they're

(01:08:03):
assuming maybe more had tried to crank the car like
six times. Oh okay, and it didn't start or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Well, yeah, maybe because there's a rag in the tail bike.
Well there's that now, I know. I seriously don't even
know how she made it that far in that vehicle
with the ZAUS cut off like that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
I really don't doesn't compute for me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
No, And I got to say one thing before I
forget from the family's perspective. Whoever they requested a wire
tap on, I would be curious about who that was
because that's not something you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
Do lightly Sames easy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Yeah, that is something you do when you have other
evidence or a very very strong suspicion, and it would
have to be supported by some type of evidence to
even make that request to get a warrant for the tap.
So yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
Another weird thing found in Morri's car was a Chrysler
logo and nobody knows why it was there. It was
like a piece broken off from a Christi or car.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
Okay, maybe she's a big Chrysler fan, he thinks, so to.
I just love Crosslers. I got the Saturn right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
I wish I had a sea Bring, but.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
When I make it, I just want a convertible sea bring.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
Yeah, my mom had a sea bring.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
I had a neighbor and this old timer and.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
It was not a convertible, but my mom had a
sea bring.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
He had this really old convertible sea bring and it
was like his pride and joy. You know, he'd get
it out of I.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Worked for this real estate couple or like he was
the broker in charge at the agency I worked for. Yeah, yeah,
and he had a convertible Sea Bring and it was older,
but he and his wife that was like their fun car.
I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Yeah. He would keep it and only on a sunny.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
Beautiful day they would drive it to work.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Take off in this. I mean it was real old
and kind of beat up.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
This was like twenty ten or something, and this was
like a ninety six Sea Bring vertible or something. But hey,
good for y'all. It would just always tickle me because
he was a very short little man and he always
wore these very ill fitting suits. Oh and I would think, honey,
just get that tailored.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Please, Somebody get this man was very short, and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Then the jackets were always like past his knees.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Somebody get this manifitted.

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
Ye.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Yeah, somebody I knew at work was like, just sell
the seabring bill and get your suit tailored. Like what
are you doing anyway? In twenty nineteen, the basement of
a home was searched, but sadly they did not find Moura.
So again I don't know whose basement that was, but
it was some random basement in this area. Sadly, if

(01:10:34):
they didn't find her, then another piece of information trickled
in twenty twenty one, remember the Lune Mountain three, Well,
a body was found on Lune Mountain and so it
automatically became this idea that the Lune Mountain three, these
guys who didn't show up for work that night had
killed Mourra and now he found her body. But testing

(01:10:56):
revealed that the bones were out of date. Range to Maura, Okay,
I think they were like newer or like fresher bones,
like maybe the murder hadn't been so I guess old
or whatever. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Well, Damn, who killed the person on Loon Mouth?

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
Well, I'm not really sure, but I think maybe they
figured that out. Now, after all these years, the family
still seeks answers. Morea's mother passed away from cancer in
two thousand and nine, and sadly, her sister Kathleen succumb
to the same cancer in twenty twenty one, Damn without
ever finding out where Mora was. Now. The thing about
the area where more disappeared is this ruralful miles. As

(01:11:34):
I mentioned, there's no destination and it's not the kind
of place where you just drive and if you don't
live in the area, you're probably not driving there. So
and there's also no cell phone service in this area either,
and what was she doing there is well again, I
mean that's people don't we don't know what she was
doing in this area.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
I mean, you know, you kept saying this is not
really somewhere you drive through, and then now I'm just like, wait,
you know me and my goldfish memory, I'm like, I
didn't want to ask because I thought you might have
already said uh earlier in the story, But like, what
is she doing there? I'm not sure someone following someone
else or someone getting her to go somewhere with them,

(01:12:17):
And you know, gosh, it's such a I mean, I
understand people's kind of fascination with this particular missing person story.
I mean I really do, because it's very strange.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
And like I said, there are so many theories out there,
and I'm gonna touch on a few here.

Speaker 4 (01:12:38):
But.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
I'm not touching on all of them. I mean, if
I did that, like I said, we could have like
an eight part episode. She's the theories some of them
range from like Okay, that kind of makes sense to
just completely outrageous.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Well yeah, that cloud guy honestly has been about the
strongest one I've heard so far personally.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Interviewed a retired state policeman named John Healey. Now, Heally
has his own theory about what happened to Maura. He
believes she was murdered. Heally thinks mour was scared she
was becoming her sister Kathleen. Now, this guy's done some
extensive investigation. According to Heale, every time he called Kathleen
to try to speak to her about Mara's case, that

(01:13:22):
she was always drunk and intoxicated and he could never
get straight answers out of her.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
So she's still having substances.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
You, Yes, Healey honed in on butch Atwood, who had
given three different versions of what happened or you know
what he thinks happened the night More went missing. So
Healey thinks that butch Atwood knows who took Maura, but
that he's afraid to say anything, that he's been scared
to come forward with the information. Okay, which if Claude

(01:13:52):
Moulton had something to do with it, maybe he was
afraid of Claude Moulton.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Right, who lived right down the road.

Speaker 3 (01:13:59):
Right By the time Heally tracked him down, butch Attwood
had moved to Florida, and he said that, you know,
he's trying to get Butch to answer his questions, and
you know these are questions Butch has answered several times before.
He's been interviewed by law enforcement more than once.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Right, Uh, he.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
Said, Heley like, I'm sorry, Heley said, Butch just like
refused to talk and shut down, didn't want to answer
the questions, pretended like he couldn't remember. He you know, Oh,
I don't, I don't know. And Healy again, He's like,
I'm picking up on I think this guy's afraid that
he's been threatened and intimidated, and I think he's afraid

(01:14:40):
to tell what he knows.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
Or he's just over it. He's just over the fact
that he happened to see this poor girl who went
missing and has been questioned over and over, maybe even
sometimes accused of some wrongdoing he didn't do. So, I
mean that could be the case. He's once so far
as that he's moved, moved, it's been a long time.
He could just be over it. Well.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
I think this was actually not long after he had
moved to Florida because this at the time heally was
an active investigator.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
Oh okay, the state Police okay.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
So heally also says that Rick Forcier was quote a
strange puppy. Now that's the guy who lived in the
trailer that would make those sick jokes about more of
being a good cook.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
And being in his basement.

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):
Yeah, weird shit. Now he refused to let law enforcement
search his property. Heally also didn't believe that the crash
happened the way it had been described. He thinks mora
hit something more like a semi truck or like rear
ended somebody due to the hood being bent inward and
kind of from above.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
And then damage being up kind of hot up, not
on the end of the car, but up on the hood. Yeah,
or a big truck. It wouldn't have to be a
semi It could be a box truck or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
There have been others who say Fred Murray isn't always
being truthful, Like when discussing more leaving West Point, he
always says, well, it's just because she wanted to be
a nurse. He doesn't mention anything about the trouble. He
doesn't address the stealing or any of the risky behavior,
her drinking, her crashing cars. I mean, we've mentioned that before,

(01:16:23):
but right, And.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
That could just be a dad not thinking those things
matter and not in just being more concerned about his
daughter's character. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
But I guess a lot of those internet slew Stylan
feel like he's maybe being a little shady or holding
back information, or that the fact that he is almost
kind of covering up these things, that maybe there's something
strange about him, or that he could be involved. There

(01:16:55):
have been theories that the four thousand dollars cash that
he had taken out of the bank to buy a
car might have been for some other purpose. There were
thoughts that maybe Moro was going to take her sister
Kathleen to a rehab facility or like meet her at
a rehab facility. Other people have suggested that perhaps there

(01:17:18):
was some inappropriate thing going on and he was paying
her off so she could leave, yeah, not come forward
with some information she had well.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
And it's like when early on they wanted to keep
it in the press, in front of the press, interviews
with anyone, but then when they find out a reputable
investigative journalist, which is as good as any private eye
or anything you'll ever you know, maybe even better as
far as you know, talking to people and finding digging
up facts and information. He's against that. See that's a weird,

(01:17:52):
a bit weird, is it? Because he's afraid this person
may dig deep below the surface and uncover information that well,
does it want to come.

Speaker 3 (01:18:01):
Out or making any accusations here, I'm just going off
of the information that we have, which is that there
are family members who say the relationship seemed very strange
between this father and daughter, almost bordering inappropriate. You have
several kids in the family who have issues, sisters an addict,

(01:18:22):
Moras having issues, and I think the older brother also
had some issues, maybe with alcohol, and people say Fred
was quite a drinker. So I mean, it does seem
like this family has some dysfunction and we all know
that a lot of times addiction and that's like rooted

(01:18:43):
and something maybe traumatic and people are trying to drink
themselves or use drugs to kind of numb whatever pain
they're having or acting out. Maybe Mora was acting out
because of some kind of trauma. And again I'm not
making any out llegations, but I'm just connecting some dots
that have already been floated out there.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Or it could be just learned behavior from growing up
in a household with a heavy drinker or a drinker,
and it could just be similar can bring chemistries in
a family, which goes back to the genetic component of
substance abuse. I mean, it could be a lot of things.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
I guess, well it could be. I mean I'm just
well no, I'm just yeah, talking about theories here.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
Well, no, I get it, but uh gosh, I mean,
what do you even make of all this?

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):
Well, another story renter Or uncovered was from a private
investigator who said that at the Thanksgiving the year before
Maura disappeared, that her mother had embarrassed her. Maura's mom, Laurie,
had asked Maura, like, why did you make so much
food if you're just gonna throw it up later?

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
Wow? In front of friends and family, in front like.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
The whole No, not friends because friends aren't allowed to
but whole family. And that it like really embarrassed her
and upset her. And this was kind of used as
an example of how, like this family is a little dysfunctional.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Well, yeah, I mean that's certainly I think can be
construed it's abusive, yeah, inappropriate.

Speaker 3 (01:20:16):
Well yeah, I mean, if your child is struggling with
an eating disorder. The last thing you want to do
is like make fun of them.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
In front of everybody, well just.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
In general, but yes, definitely not in front of everybody.
I mean, shit, I got my dad called me miss
Piggy my whole life, and then by the time I
was in high school, I was like Annarexica, and I
never ate I would starve myself. So I mean that
shit affects kids, you know. Right now, Megan saw youer,
a friend from West Point, said that she was advised

(01:20:48):
by a family spokesperson, which is this relative named Helen
Dwyer Murray, to keep quiet about Mara. Helen had ordered
all of Morri's friends to not let any of the
negative information about Maura.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
Get out, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
I mean again, this relative who kind of took over
as the spokesperson, I think she was like an aunt
by marriage or something, kind of assumed this role. And
when Renner was going to write this book and people
were asking questions that this aunt like called around and
was like warning everybody, like, don't you dare say anything

(01:21:27):
about her?

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
Well again, is this just about her character? Is this
you know? They don't want people openly discussing issues she
may be having. I mean, it's I don't know. It's
almost like you either want the whole story figured out
and told or you don't. I mean, when you start
trying to control the narrative like this, no matter your intent,

(01:21:52):
you're you're you're gonna it's not gonna help. I don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:21:58):
During one of the searches for Maura during summer of
two thousand and four, human remains were located on Mount
Canna Comengus Wow, Canica Mangus.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
I wish I lived up on Canica Mangus.

Speaker 3 (01:22:10):
It ended up being a man who had disappeared twenty
years earlier. I mean, so that's always interesting to me,
is like, what are the chances you're gonna find someone
else who's missing while searching for another missing person.

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):
Unless it's Yilgo Beach. Yeah geese. Yeah, they couldn't throw
a rock without hitting a body at that place.

Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
Well, like I said, I mean, there are a lot
of theories out there, foul play. We have quite a
few suspects, if you will, or persons of interest. We
have various theories that she's taken her own life, that
she's living in another place under assumed identity. Because another

(01:22:51):
interesting thing, Dylan is I believe it was in like
two thousand and eleven or maybe it was around that time.
I didn't put it in my because I was like, oh,
I remember that, but then of course I don't remember it.
Moura's like social Security pinged in Maine.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Really yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):
Which is a little strange, right, It is like I
think it was a bank or something, but then someone
else explained it in some other way, like well, if
someone was running a search, it might have pinged that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
Way, or if someone wrote a social security number down
wrong and input it like say, You're social security just
happens to be a digit off of what Maura's is,
and you're doing something at the bank. I mean, I
guess maybe that could happen as well.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
And like I said, there have been multiple reports of
Maura being in Canada and multiple eyewitnesses who claim the
seen her there and that she's living her life. They've
seen her. They describe her as being athletic, that she
rides a bicycle, She visits a certain neighborhood, frequents a

(01:24:01):
certain neighborhood, shops, coffee shops.

Speaker 2 (01:24:05):
Now is is she one of those people that truly
do walk away from their lives? And but I mean
you leave all the money behind and stuff. So I
mean that's kind of weird, right what money or are
you talking? Oh no, I guess Fred had the four thousand.
Never mind.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Well but again there's theories that he gave her that
money and she left town. So again I don't know.
I mean, it's there's so many directions this case goes.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
And to be so prevalent on the internet and social media,
I mean, you're never, ever, ever again tempted to reach
out to anyone, family, friends.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
What's like the amy, or.

Speaker 2 (01:24:48):
Even come to a side and honesty and say, look, guys,
for whatever reason, I left my life, it's my business.

Speaker 4 (01:24:57):
I do.

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):
You know, stop all this discussion, Quit talking of about me,
keep my name out of your mouth. You get Will
Smith to go around smack some people. Yeah, and everybody
just to stop talking about you and just stop and
leave it be. I'm fine. I'm not going to tell
you where I am or what I'm doing, but I'm fine.
But now, if she committed, you know, were to harm

(01:25:19):
self harm, herself, committed suicide there in that area, you'd
have to imagine eventually some point her remains would be
discovered by someone and they haven't been so, I mean, gosh, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
Just There was also a lady who worked at a
liquor store in have Her Hill who claimed that on
the evening of this accident, Maura came in the store
with two other women into this liquor store. She didn't
say whether Maura made a purchase. Maybe the other women did,

(01:25:54):
I'm not sure, but that Maura left with these two women. Now,
and of course this liquor store doesn't have any cameras
because it's like some old you know, like some old
package store or something. But this lady claims that she
came in and she saw Maura. When her photo was
released in the media, the lady called police and said,

(01:26:14):
I saw this girl like she came in the liquor store.
She was with two women.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
Okay, so now you got two women in the mix
with her.

Speaker 3 (01:26:24):
Yeah, okay. So Fred Murray has said quote will never stop.
Even if we never find her, we keep searching. That's
what love does. It refuses to quit. And after all
that's been said and done, I really truly believe that
he loves his daughter. At the end of the day. Yeah,

(01:26:47):
I mean, he's gone to great links here and.

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):
That's why I think it's uh speculation all that, it's oh,
let's let's all be honest, we're true confidence. It's kind
of fun to try. I mean to think it's not
fun that have happened, but to think about it and
try to figure these things out, to discuss it, and
to know all the details and try to put the

(01:27:10):
pieces together. I mean, that's what drives, you know, a
big the interest in true crime, I think. But when
you get into like, oh, there could have been inappropriate behavior,
and you start dissecting people's every move and what you
what other hearsay about what they did or what they
might not have done, That's that's where it gets into

(01:27:32):
the kind of gross part of true crime for.

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
Me, you know what I'm saying, I understand. But when
you do have relatives, like for example, Janice, Lorie's sister
had told James Renner that she always found Fred to
be a little like strange or off putting. I don't know.
One thing that troubled her was he was in college
when he met Laurie, and Laurie was only fifteen.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
And he was college age she was in college.

Speaker 3 (01:28:01):
And that he pursued her until she agreed to like
go out with them.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
Okay, well that's gross.

Speaker 3 (01:28:07):
But something. Yeah. And then there was another part in
the James Renner book and folks should really read it,
True Crime Addict by James Renner. He goes to Fred's
home to interview him, and this is you know, like
two thousand and ten, eleven twelve, somewhere in there. You know,
it's been some time has passed since she's vanished, and

(01:28:29):
Fred is no longer living in his home and Weymouth,
mass And has moved to like the coast, and his
house is being foreclosed on at this time, so it's
an empty house. But James Renner goes, you know, obviously
there's nobody there, and there's a shed on the property
and he said, like the door was kind of open,
like this junkie shed, and he just went in there

(01:28:52):
and found stacks of penthouse magazines. Oh, and he opened
like he said, he opened one of them because there
was something kind of like lodged in the magazine and
that it was two photos of these young girls, like
school photos or something, and had their names on it.
And when he asked someone else, like do you know

(01:29:13):
who these girls are? They said those were Fred's cousins,
and he just thought that was really odd that pictures
of two young girls would be shoved into a pornographic magazine.

Speaker 2 (01:29:23):
Well, yeah, I mean, if that's that's true, that's very weird.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
I don't see. I mean, he could be lying, but
I guess I just don't see the point, Like, why
would you lie about that you could be sued. I
mean that just seems like there were you know, and
you don't have to lie because people are gonna buy
your book anyway. You don't have to like lie about
this shit or make this stuff up to make it
more sensational, in my opinion, I mean, people are gonna

(01:29:50):
buy the book regardless.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
Right, Well, of course, we know there is such a
thing as yellow journalism, and not every author or uh
invest investigative journalist has been the most you know, perfectly
innocent and ethical. But this case has plenty of elements anyway,
So I think it would be dumb to add things

(01:30:13):
like that if it didn't happen, because there's already plenty
of interest and it's already a very weird case with
lots of you know, possibilities. So yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
Well, there's also some fella who's volunteered with the case
for a while, and like does social media for the
family that presented. I think it was in like twenty
twenty one, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one at crime Con,
which is a big deal, Like on behalf of the

(01:30:43):
family presented something you know about the case at crime Con. Yeah,
and he was had been arrested for being like a
pedophile nice and had some issue. And James Renner thought
it was odd that the family would allow this person

(01:31:05):
to present Morri's case at crime con, like knowing his
background or that he was under investigation at the time
or whatever. It's in the book. Read the book.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
I'm going to read the book very strange.

Speaker 3 (01:31:20):
So my resources for today were True Crime Addict by
James Renner, Into the Silence by Richard Ray, The Vanishing
Point by Daniel Creed, and I listened to Julie Murray's
podcast Media Pressure.

Speaker 2 (01:31:31):
Okay, wow, I guess we knew that this case was
going to be kind of like this, but wow, I
know so much more about it now for sure. Thank
you for that. And like you said, we just end
up with more questions than answers at the very end
of it. We do.

Speaker 3 (01:31:48):
Yeah, we definitely do. And again I'm going to reiterate, like,
not trying to speak ill of anyone, but I just
like to paint full picture of the situation.

Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
Well, I think it's the best way to And if it's.

Speaker 3 (01:32:06):
In print and it's considered a fact, I'm gonna tell
you whether it's pretty or not right.

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
And I think that's important. I think it gives people
a full or a better understanding of circumstance and maybe
people's mindset when when they're before situations like this happened.
So I think it's very important and I personally like
to have all all the information warts and all warts.

Speaker 3 (01:32:37):
Yeah gosh, I got to get a frog to pee
on you or something?

Speaker 2 (01:32:41):
Oh man, I could imagine.

Speaker 3 (01:32:43):
Or do they say you get warts when a frog
piece on you?

Speaker 2 (01:32:46):
Is that it?

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
Or take the warts away?

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
No, the frog causes the wars. Mom and dad would
tell you to keep you from playing with the frog.
I can imagine what an investigated what a book about
me would look like.

Speaker 3 (01:33:00):
Oh gosh, yeah, you're pretty much an open book, don't.

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
You think so?

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):
Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this though, like
all the folks who are like James Renner's a piece
of shit. He's liary, he can't believe him.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
He's trash, he writes words.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
Yeah, his books are full of shit or whatever, because
you always gonna have them haters. But I was thinking
about just authenticity, and nobody out there could ever accuse
us of putting on a show, or putting on errors
or being somebody we're not, because I think we're folks
that we tell you all the nitty gritty, like we're

(01:33:34):
open book, and I think we probably tell our listeners
too much.

Speaker 2 (01:33:38):
Yeah, I think that's true. Our listeners know that our
technical capabilities have likely held our podcast back over the years.

Speaker 3 (01:33:47):
Our honesty has probably held our podcasts back.

Speaker 2 (01:33:50):
Our honesty, but I will start saying diabolical if that
maybe helps us go up the chart some Yeah, yeah,
that's dopable.

Speaker 3 (01:33:59):
What you really have to dude doing? You watch a
lot of TikTok? So I want you to create a
list of buzzwords. We can even make like an Excel
spreadsheet with buzzwords. Yeah, and so like every couple of sentences,
I'm gonna plug in one of those youthful buzzwords, Okay,
so that we seem cool. And then maybe the lady
at publics won't ask me if I'm sixty nice.

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):
Yeah, I like that plan.

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):
Maybe if I start saying diabolical more often.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Yeah, I'm thinking to help us climb the charts.

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
Or that's cooked or I don't know, like what are
the kids saying?

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
Oh we're so cooked? Gosh dude, these kids. It changes
so fast now.

Speaker 3 (01:34:33):
Oh I saw apparently.

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
Now, oh, don't make me crash out.

Speaker 3 (01:34:38):
Your fashion is like now instead of saying like, look
at my drip, it's like my aura. Oh yeah, I
didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
Yeah, I'd be like a Heather was walking through publics totally.

Speaker 3 (01:34:50):
Or a farming there you go. Okay, does that mean
I got big dick energy.

Speaker 2 (01:34:54):
It means you're kind of like just you know, you're
going to leave them in a state of shock in
some way, or you're I'm pulling all the attention to you.

Speaker 3 (01:35:01):
Clearly I am with my old ass face.

Speaker 2 (01:35:04):
Sounds like you were going to crash out on that cash.

Speaker 3 (01:35:06):
Here tell me where the prune and mutual art I
asked you about have a jay scooter accessible?

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
All right, so I'll brush up on guys. Like I said,
this generation is constantly changing with the uh whatever you
call it, their slang.

Speaker 3 (01:35:23):
The aura is always changing.

Speaker 2 (01:35:25):
Yeah, that's just that's how it works.

Speaker 3 (01:35:28):
When did a hot dog become a glizzy?

Speaker 2 (01:35:30):
Oh yeah, well that does that even?

Speaker 3 (01:35:32):
I mean, what the fuck is that? Even?

Speaker 2 (01:35:35):
That's been that, that has been a thing for a minute.

Speaker 3 (01:35:38):
You know, look, I'm out of I'm not hip, Okay,
so you gotta explain this to me.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
Munching on a Glizzy or gulping down a Glizzy. I
actually think that is going to be the downfall of
the hot dog market. Like in one of the we
talk about things that go the way of the dinosaurs.
As the generations move on, people are going to stop not.

Speaker 3 (01:35:59):
The lips, assholes, and like the nasty parts that are
in the hot dog. It's going to be because they
people are going to make fun of you, Lizzy.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
Yeah, basically they're going to make fun of you if
they see you eating a hot dog.

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
Manzies are good shit.

Speaker 2 (01:36:11):
I love Glizzies.

Speaker 3 (01:36:12):
I want with some like slaw and onions and mustard
and chili on it.

Speaker 2 (01:36:17):
Do I take like three Glizzies to the face right now.

Speaker 3 (01:36:20):
Give me a loaded Glizzy. Yeah, load that gluesy up.

Speaker 2 (01:36:24):
That's a great name for a punk band. Loaded Glizzy,
go ahead and gulp it down, mudget No. But you know,
it's like every generation has a slut. You could usually
be like, you know, twenty thirty maybe fifty words for
a whole generation that was your slang cool, but ever

(01:36:45):
when bad men.

Speaker 3 (01:36:46):
Cool or terrific but tubular?

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
Nowadays it changes month to month slaying and it's you
get all the abbreviations online that people say out loud
in real life, which is weird, like say loud l
O L. I mean it's I don't know or b
t W I want you to say, By the way,

(01:37:10):
what are you doing? I mean I understand online why
it's abbreviated because it's quicker, easier. Oh s okay, capital
s why b a U s y b a U

(01:37:30):
one you.

Speaker 3 (01:37:31):
I learned this one the other day. It's shut your
bitch ass off.

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):
Bro, let's go.

Speaker 3 (01:37:38):
I just say it, yeah, just just say it. Don't
spread it. B A y U, buddy, don't be such
an l seven weenie.

Speaker 2 (01:37:47):
All right, So thank you for that, Heather, And until
next time, I guess we'll have the next episode will
be the Spooky Book Club or Spooky Movie Club.

Speaker 3 (01:38:00):
Have we ever done a spooky book club.

Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
I don't know, but I want to do it. Spooky
movie install me.

Speaker 3 (01:38:05):
When's the last time you read a book?

Speaker 4 (01:38:07):
Dylan?

Speaker 2 (01:38:07):
I can't see.

Speaker 3 (01:38:09):
Get some glasses and a year ago because of a
very common solution to this problem, Dylan, and you have
insurance that will even pay money toward your glasses. What
are you doing with yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
Look, it's a procrastination is it's a sickness that I
have because I actually went a year ago, a little
over a year ago, to the eye doctor. I got
my it's.

Speaker 3 (01:38:35):
Probably even fucked up more since you went.

Speaker 2 (01:38:37):
I got the prescription and it's been in my glove
box for a year because I just got a thing
about me not making my you know, check up again.
So it's been a little over year and I never
pulled the trigger. I never took that out of my
glove box and got glasses with it. I don't know
what's wrong with me.

Speaker 3 (01:38:55):
Talking about a spooky book club and you can't even see.
You ain't read a book since I met You're at
I can't even see.

Speaker 2 (01:39:03):
So, as Heather's pointing out, it's the Spooky movie Club.
We'll have another installment Wolf Creek.

Speaker 3 (01:39:08):
I'm gonna get this blind ass man. Something Glizzie or something.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
Oh I can see Glizzies now I want you.

Speaker 3 (01:39:15):
To s b A y u b A O mg
t l r w y z b r b right,
all right, see why?

Speaker 2 (01:39:29):
So until next time, Wolf Creek's the next movie. Screen
it so you can play along with us as we
recount the true life story that inspired the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:39:39):
Bye,