August 14, 2025 • 33 mins
Award-winning filmmaker and long-time MUFON investigator Jennifer Stein joins Martin Willis to discuss her decades in UFO research, her documentary work on the Travis Walton abduction case, and the high-strangeness of Sedona, Arizona. Jennifer shares her experiences at Bradshaw Ranch—rumored to be near an underground military facility—where she’s witnessed mysterious lights rising from the ground, unusual orbs, and persistent military helicopter activity. She explains Sedona’s energy vortexes, rapid synchronicities, and why the region has become a hotspot for paranormal phenomena. The conversation turns to the Skyfire Summit—a special four-day event marking the 50th anniversary of Travis Walton’s 1975 abduction. Jennifer details her journey making Travis: The True Story of Travis Walton, the challenges of film rights disputes, and how recent debunking campaigns mirror the tactics of legendary UFO skeptic Philip Klass. From the refusal of Snowflake, AZ officials to embrace their UFO history, to the shifting landscape of UFO disclosure, congressional hearings, and the recent shutdown of AARO, Jennifer pulls no punches.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Jennifer Stein. Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Thank you Martin. Such a pleasure to be with.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
It's always great to see you. You have such a
great smile and great energy and we.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Have a mutual admiration.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Yeah, oh, thank you. Other So, anyway, you on Wings Films.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
That's yeah, on Wings Productions Productions. Yes, it's been the
production company for a long time plus. I've been involved
in mouf On forever, like twenty five years now. Philadelphia
is where I started, and then I moved to Arizona
in twenty twenty one and I wasn't there long and
Stacey right grabbed me around the neck and said, you're
doing programs in Sedona. I went, I am, I don't
(00:49):
live in Sedona. She said, yeah, but you can do it.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
How far away are you from Sedona? An hour and
a half okay? And is that I've been there. It's beautiful, gorgeous.
And a friend of mine went there and he called
me right away. He's not into UFO's base, and I
had a UFO setting and he goes and guess what
it ended up being starlink. But there is something about
the Sedona area. Yes, that's unusual that things seem to
(01:16):
happen there.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
And breaking right now with Ross Colhart and Melinda Leslie
is the information about Bradshaw Ranch, which is basically an
underground military base there. It's been there forever, but there's
been very unusual sightings that I've gone out a couple
times with Melinda and seen very unusual lights like coming
right up out of the ground, going up into the
(01:39):
you know, into space, and very unusual activity. Lots of helicopters,
military helicopters circling, unusual orbs and.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So there's strange stuff going on there. There's definitely vortexas there,
energy war Texas, and it's also a place where like
rapid synchronicity takes place. You know, you're driving in a Sedona,
you're thinking you got to meet somebody. You stop the
car to pick up a juice at Juice Bless and
you're walking and there's the person you need to talk to.
It's like that happens all the time for me in Sedona.
(02:07):
It's it's like a high energy space where things just
coagulate and happen and like very spontaneously. But all you
have to do is kind of think about stuff that
you need that you know needs to happen, and then
it happens for you.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Wow, I think I might need to move there. No,
it does sound. I love that area. I've spent some
time out there and that whole Phoenix area. Really enjoy it.
You know. The Frank Lloyd Right place is so beautiful.
But I mean there was a reason he moved there,
that's right. You know.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
My dad was an architect and he actually he worked
for a firm in Chicago before he moved to Philadelphia,
and they did work with Frank Lloyd Right, and Frank
admired my dad's drawings, and my dad admired Frank Loyd's
rights work, so he bought he built him out an
house in Pennsylvania, sort of like Frankloyd Right I might
have done.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Wow, And so I have.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Of course, whenever people come to visit, I take them.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
To the Frankloyd Wright House.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
It's really beautiful, right right, Well, that's something in Chicago.
What great architecture there is in Chicago. I love going
through Chicago and they're looking at the architecture of the
River Tour where you can seal all those beautiful buildings
and yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. And you know when they
had if they didn't have the Great Chicago Fire. And no,
we're getting way off topic. But I mean you just
(03:27):
think of all the changes and they had to elevate,
you know, a lot of the city and all that.
They had to do a lot. But yeah, that's fascinating.
So I know, way off the uf AL topic. We
have to get back there. You're doing Scarfire Skyfire Summit,
so talk about that. Is this is this the nineteen
seventy five so this.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Is the fiftieth anniversary of Travis story.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So I made the documentary about Travis Walton and the
other loggers in twenty fifteen in preparation for the fortieth
anniversary celebration, and i'd work I started at around twenty
twelve twenty thirteen. I worked on it over over time
and had the wonderful help of Stanton Friedman and Rich Dolan,
(04:14):
Lee Spiegel, Peter Robbins. So we produced that in twenty fifteen,
and then I had to reproduce it in twenty seventeen
because of a rights issue I had with some of
the archive footage that Stanton had helped me acquire. But
the guy I bought the rights from never signed my
contract after the film started winning awards, so I had
(04:37):
written him a check for it, but he never signed
my contract, and finally, after two years, I got a
seasoned desist letter from him, so I went, well, I
can either try to take him to court because I
thought we had an agreement. We had emails, you know,
we had agreed for payment. But it was just simpler
to go buy other archive footage. So I dropped his footage,
remade the film, put in new archive footage, and did
(05:00):
some more in depth interviews, which I was really glad
I did because I was able to add in Travis's
brother Don. I was able to add in Chuck Ellison,
which I hadn't gotten in the first film, so David
Jacob so I added in, made it a little more
in depth, and I did some great CGI in the
second version.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So the type of way one type of way. It
was like what they call a happy happy accident.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I guess yes.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Plus it also gave me the opportunity to relaunch the
film in film festivals because it was a revised version,
so they a lot of films happened that way. You
make a film and then you launch it, and then
you realize, oh I could have done this or that,
or you have a rights issue, or somebody tries to
sue you for something, and then you just you have
to go about, you know, fusing it. So I did that,
(05:46):
and now, believe it or not, it's been ten years.
It's the fiftieth anniversary coming up. And something I have
done with Travis over the years since we celebrated the
fortieth anniversary is I tried to mark the anniversary every
year doing something. So for a while we did things
on the West coast, then we did some things on
the East coast. We did a speaking tour around the anniversary,
(06:08):
so almost every year. In one year, in twenty twenty one,
we did a virtual worldwide conference on the anniversary of
his event.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I think that's.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Mostly because of part of it, partially because of COVID,
but also partially because in twenty twenty one there was
a big debunking campaign that came out with.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
UFO classified Erica Luke's program and Ryan Gordon. They seemed
to think that they were going to pick apart the
story of Travis, and they also picked apart the Betty
and Barney Hill story. And this was done on two
continents in Australia and in America, a website launched called
something I'll think of it in a minute, ten key
(06:51):
penny or something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
It was.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
A gown named Charlie Wood I think her name was
or Charlie, and she put a whole campaign on a
website together saying these abduction stories, these classic UFO stories,
are all fake. And then Ryan Gordon shows up and
starts debunking Travis Walton's case, and that happened started in
twenty twenty, but it went on for a year. And
(07:18):
they picked apart the fire in the Sky film, they
picked apart in my film. They confuse the facts. I mean,
it was the typical debunking thing. Destroy the character of
the person and make them look like a juvenile delinquent,
go after key pieces, you know, and take up them apart.
And it didn't really stand its weight. It was easy
(07:40):
to see what they were doing. Most people who understood
debunking started texting me and calling me and saying, Jen,
do you realize what they're doing? I said yes, but
you know, there's always been debunkers and it had the
classic mark. It was amazing to me. It's a classic mark,
as if Philip Class had come back from the dead, because.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
These were the same things that Philip Klass did.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
In fact, Ryan Gordon recorded people and then took their
audio and changed it around and said to say things
they didn't say, or cut out important pieces that would
have made more sense. And I was like, wow, this
is amazing and stuff that had happened to Travis when
he was thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, and Snowflake he was digging
up and saying, you know, always a juvenile delinquent and whatnot,
(08:21):
which of course wasn't true. So what happened is towards
the end of these podcasts, which went on for six
seven months, finally one of these guys shows up, named
Robert Schaefer. And I had done research with Stanton Friedman
and Kathleen Martin in some archives, especially in Philadelphia where
I lived, the American Philosophical Society, and there was a
(08:44):
lot of information on Philip Class there and his techniques
and what he did, and a lot of correspondence between
Robert Schaeffer and Philip. And I understood that Robert Schaefer
went to Northwestern University where Jay Allen Heinig had been
the chief astronomer. Robert Schaeffer as a graduate student, was
sort of hired or enlisted or promoted or coached to
(09:09):
watch Jay Allen Heinek. So Robert Schaeffer became a debunker
right along with Philip Class. And I believe, although I'm
not certain, but I'm very suspectful that when Robert Class died,
Robert Schaeffer kind of adopted or picked up his materials,
certainly his mission. And I think that Robert Schaeffer was
behind this big debunking campaign and probably hired or enlisted
(09:34):
or coached Ryan Gordon. So, you know, like the breadcrumbs
lead back. So what happened in that year in twenty
twenty one is Ron Janix, who produces this conference, contacted
me along with Jordan Pease who was working with him,
and he said, you know, we should really do a
virtual event on the anniversary of Travis Wallman's case because
this is absurd what's going on. I mean, they literally
(09:57):
said that Travis never saw a U What he was
looking at was a fire tower instead, and it was
lit up at night, and that's why he looked up
and thought this was a UFO. And fire towers have
these beams on them, these light alls where they can
signal other fire towers far away. But fire towers only
(10:19):
exist in the sid Grays National Forest at the very
highest parts of the mountain so that they can signal
one another. They weren't down in the Turkey Springs Valley
where they were, so there's no way it could have
been the fire tower because it was five miles away.
But people bought it. People who haven't been there, they
bought it, you know, They're like, oh, it could have
been the fire tower. And then they said his brother
(10:42):
hid out up there, hit him with a beam of
light and Travis just jumped back twenty feet and then
laid there like he was dead, you know, and all
the boys and the crew were so scared they drove away. Well,
these boys drove by the fire tower every day.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They knew where it was.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
They wouldn't look like that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Sure, they weren't going to work.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
They were going to mistake it. So in twenty twenty one,
we did a big exposay online about this and we had.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
On with it.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
We had we had this wonderful tribute and I think
it helped Travis and the other guys in the crew
feel and recognize that educated that's done some reading knows that,
and that people that are educated don't take these tactics seriously.
So that was all the more reason I thought I
(11:39):
should continue to go on and try to mark some anniversaries,
and certainly the fiftieth anniversary is an important one. So
I undertook about a year ago to plan a conference,
and I was trying to plan it in Snowflake. I
was going to put it on up there because that's
his hometown. And I talked to the head of the
Kawanas Club. I talked to the Chamber of con. I
(12:00):
talked to people in Hebrew. I talked to the mayor.
I talked to the police chiefs. You know, I couldn't
get any of them to consider running an annual conference
up there, because I said, look, it'll be an economic
boom you'll bring in. You could bring in easily for
the Kawanas Club if if they got behind it and
ran it. Theo extident of Hampshire or pine Bush or
(12:21):
McMinnville right or Rosweld. I said, look, I know all
the people I can put you in touch with the
business manager of these are the conference coordinators you could
bring in ten twenty thirty forty thousand dollars for your
local charities. They wouldn't touch it with a ten football.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
They don't want to be associated.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
With this isn't that funny?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
And I just I was just really saddened by that,
and it kind of made me feel sorry for all
these loggers who came out of Snowflake. So I was
running Sedona Muffon already for two years and I thought, well,
just heck, I already have a venue I'm using there.
I'm going to keep it small. There's only one hundred
and seventy five seats at this conference. The people who
know that want to be there, who want to come
(13:01):
and honor Travis and want to mark what's happening in
the world right now because now disclosure we I think
we live in a post disclosure world, but some people
think we're right on the brink of the precipice of it.
With congressional hearings that are legitimate hearings. You can now
hear about UFOs on the nightly.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
News, right it's you know, it's.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Immugination, Ross Colhart.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
You can't like put it under the rug anymore. So
I just said, you know what, I'm going to do
the conference in Sedona. There's only one hundred and seventy
five seats. We will sell out. It's a four day conference.
We're screening Accidental Truth on Friday night. We have an
all day program on Saturday with Don Schmidt who will
be in. He'll be talking about Rosweld. We'll also be
(13:47):
talking about basically secrecy to transparency. What has gone on
in the last eighty years and why is this such
a big kafuffle? You know, how do you educate the
public in two three, four years when you've kept something
secret for eighty years? Generations have grown up thinking UFOs are,
you know, a laughing matter, So how do you begin
(14:10):
to educate them how serious this issue is? Because everything
is tied to the UFO issue. You know, if you
look at our military, look at our space programs, look
at our finance, look at our black budget, look at
our economic problems, look at mind control, look at the
psychology and sociology departments at major universities. You know, just
(14:32):
look at governmental history, the Robertson panel, and I just
heard that Arrow has been has gone out of business.
Arrow has now been defunded and Deep Platform because they're
not doing anything. So Trump said, look, if you're not
going to research UFOs, I'm not going to fund you.
So we continue to go through this, you know, figure
(14:53):
eight loop of deception and confusion. Just a couple of
days ago, I think Arrow got defunded.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Wow. Well yeah, I mean I had a talk with
Ross Coldheart about Arrow, and you know, I mean there's
some things I didn't agree that they were really It's
like window dressing in a way.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You know, Yes, they weren't really doing the research. And
the whistleblowers that Ross is brought forward, they came forward
because they gave testimony, they gave written reports, like David Grush,
and they ignored them. They wouldn't look at them. They said, no,
there doesn't seem to be any evidence. And the same
with Jack Jake Barber. He came forward and said, look,
I've got information, this is the work I've done, these
(15:35):
are the projects I've worked on. And they didn't accept
his testimony, so he went to the news. So we're
living in a day and age when whistleblowers are going
to change the reality.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
It seems like it seems like it could be heading
that way. Now, going back to Travis and Philip lass
Class and all that. Yes, there was a rumor and
I don't know if it was substantiated that Philip tried
to write a check for ten grand. So Steve would
say that.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
This never happened, never happened, Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
What would be the incentive of him writing that type
of check?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Well, me, the onother good question to ask Martin is
where would he come up with that money?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And why would and why why would it be paid?
Is that just to you know, I mean Steve.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Pierce was the youngest member of the crew. He was
only seventeen. Yeah, they didn't really he shouldn't have been
out there logging until he was eighteen in terms of
insurance for what you know, the crew boss, Mike Rogers,
had a contract with the Fort Service, so the guys
all had to be eighteen or older to work there.
So he was kind of underage, and I think he
(16:42):
was trying to hide that. Now, all of these guys
came from you know, very you know, struggling families, I
will say, And these boys went out to get a
job and work, like Travis did, so he could help
support his family, you know. So Steve was helping his mom.
His dad was long gone, and he had a good job.
(17:04):
He didn't want to lose it. He didn't want to
admit that he was under age, and he was on
the floorboards when they saw that UFO.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
He was hiding under the He was trying to climb.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Under the seat of the back of the cab where
he was sitting because he was so freaked out when
he saw it. When they finally spotted it, they all
knew it was a UFO. I mean there was no doubt.
They didn't look up and say, oh, is that a satellite?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Is that Venus? I mean no, John Gouled said he was.
He said it was like.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Looking at a brand new corvette or something I would
never see or get close to. That's why Travis jumped
out of the truck. It was this incredible piece of
machinery and Travis just wanted a really good look at it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
It didn't Steve do a painting of it?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I mean, yes, Mike Rogers, Mikeers, it was the group boss,
very talented painter.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
In fact, Mike was very kind.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
He gave me permission to use his art in the film,
which I was very grateful for.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So. Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So Steve was the youngest member of the crew. He
was also a little freaked out, and they were also
all these boys were interrogated by the police while they
were hunting for Travis.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
For five days, there was.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Search parties of about one hundred people a day that
went out everything, and there was a shriff or a
police officer or a sergeant or somebody who or a
deputy who was with each group of search parties, directing
them and telling them what to do. And usually all
the crew members said this. Sometime during the day on
each of those five days, the crew boss the crew
(18:39):
members were pushed up against a tree by the deputy
and said, look, maybe you didn't kill Travis, maybe it
was an accident, maybe somebody else did. Obviously he's dead,
you buried him. You're all trying to cover it with
his UFO story. And you can go to jail, you
can hang, you can go to the electric chair as
unless you come clean.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So even if you.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Didn't do it, you better tell us who did. And
so they were all freaked out because obviously they hadn't
killed him. They all saw THISFO. So they all had
to undergo light detection tests, and they were freaked out
by that. They weren't necessarily arrested, but there was a
police officer outside their house for those five days until
they all took the light detection test, and that night
(19:20):
Travis came back. So it was a real calamity of events.
So Steve was very unnerved.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Some of these.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Boys had had what I would call mild police records.
I think Alan Dallas had taken a car when he
was fourteen for a joy ride and left it somewhere,
and he was afraid he was just going to get
put back in jail for something now that he was
like twenty.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
One or something.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
They were in to quote put him in jail for
something he did when he was fourteen, and he didn't
finish the test because he got so pissed off because
he did understand the process was and the light detection.
So Steve Pears changed his name to Jeff, got a
job in Texas. I think he was driving a truck
and really tried to disassociate himself from the story and
(20:03):
from Travis because it was I mean, the ridicule they
underwent was huge in nineteen seventies, five, seventy six, seventy seven,
so I think it was nineteen seventy seven or nineteen
seventy eight. The crew then took multiple light detection tests
because Philip Class came after them saying, oh, they made
it up, it's still not true, whatnot, and that the
(20:25):
boys got exasperated and they didn't want anything to do
with Philip anymore, especially Mike Rogers, who wrote all the
letters for the crew back and forth. Philip Class never
contacted Travis, never tracked him down, never tried to phone him.
He only went after the other members of the crew
because he thought he could manipulate them. He knew he
(20:46):
couldn't manipulate Travis, so he went after the youngest member
of the crew, flew to Texas, took him out to dinner,
and offered him ten thousand dollars to claim that it
never happened, because if he could get one of them
to turn then he had it, then he could really
debunk it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
That sort of happened to in the allegation incident. Yes, yes,
very similar. So here's the thing. I when I've all
the different times I've interviewed Travis. One time I was
interviewing him and I thought, I'm going to try to
ask him something that nobody's ever asked him before. So
I said, Travis, when you were on the ship, where
(21:23):
did you go to the bathroom? I don't think anyone
could arreste that. And he goes, oh, geez, I don't
I don't remember. I mean, did they have urinals? And
and then I said, you know, I mean probably people
have asked him. I said, do you remember any smells?
You know, I mean, you know that type of thing.
He did say that he had a hard time breathing,
(21:45):
you know, which makes sense actually, I mean, you know,
I mean they had something going on there, not maybe
not exactly like you know, one of the things I've
always thought of is, you know, you think of how
when the explorers around the world would show up somewhere
and the indigenous people that bring European diseases and gone
(22:05):
wipe out a whole civilization. And so if these beings
are here walking freely or they're actually interacting, you know,
it makes you wonder is there a different biological things
that can or could have happened, you know, those type
of things.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, that's covered very well in the Virginia case in James.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Oh, yes, that's right.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
So there are different species that have different you know,
conditions that could be quite dangerous. But the grays apparently
have been here abducting people and doing work and whatnot
for a long time. They may be here also taking samples.
And you know, I've thought a lot about the Travis
case and wondering what they were doing up there on
(22:47):
that mogi on Rim and the sid Graves National Forest hiding.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
They were really tucked below the canopy of the trees.
There had been a tree.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
There that we ended up nicknaming the nat Geo Tree
because now Geographic came up and did an expose and
that tree ended up becoming it was gone. It was
cut the year before this event happened. It was cut
in nineteen seventy four because I think it had gotten
hit by lightning and it was dying, so they cut
(23:15):
it down.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But it was so big. It was a three hundred
year old tree.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
And the canopy that it took up created a hole
in the other trees.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
So this craft with twenty foot disc craft was sitting
in that canopy.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
It was only fifteen feet off the ground, so it's
about the the height of our ceiling here, and it
was lighting up the whole forest. But it wasn't up high,
so people didn't really see it. It came in and
was sort of hiding. My suspicion is that mogion Rim
is not far from the Trinity Test sites in New Mexico.
(23:52):
So if you were looking at where a fallout would
have happened, it would have happened first on that Moggion Rim.
It's seven thousand feet high and it covers parts of
New Mexico into northern Arizona, then straight on up into Colorado.
It's the largest Ponderosa pine forest in the world and
it's mostly a flat rim, right, So if you're going
(24:14):
to have settling, you would have fallout happening there. And
a lot of people in Snowflake had cancer, cancers, lukini as,
things like that, So possibly they were there doing some
biological tree sampling or soil sampling or something, and when
these boys discovered it on their way out, I mean,
(24:35):
I don't know if it was planned or not. I
don't really think it was.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I think it was accidental.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So when they came upon it and Travis got out,
I think it was trying to raise up and take off,
and there's a lot of electric static charge there. There's
a lot of folgarites in the ground, there's a lot
of magnetism or magnetite in that land mass there. As
it was rising up, it built up a static electric charge.
(25:02):
All the boys felt it, you know, and like if
they'd had their work hats on, they would have been
sitting up on their heads, you know that. When Travis
was so close to it, he squatted down to watch
it a little more. It started to make weird sounds,
it started to rise up. He felt the electric charge.
The boys were screaming at him, get something's gonna happen,
and get back in the truck. Come on, you know,
(25:23):
what'd you do? And Travis stood up to run back
to the truck, and at the moment he stood up,
that's when it hit him. So I think it was
a reactive electrical charge that came out of the craft
that wasn't intentional, and it threw him like a grenade
had gone off. John Goulette talked about that. He was
in the military, he was in the Navy, and he
(25:44):
saw people being blown up with grenades, and he said
it was just like he'd gotten hit by either a
moving vehicle or a grenade or something like that. It
just was very powerful, and when he landed he crumpled up.
He made no attempt to.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Break his fall.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
He didn't move after he landed, and Mike Rogers thought, well,
we're going to get hit next. They didn't know if
it was deliberate or not, so they drove away, and
you know, hence all the speculation that they killed him.
But I think that they actually did kill Travis accidentally.
Then they picked him up again when the boys drove away.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
So he is.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
His story on board the craft is a very interesting story,
especially for nineteen seventy five, Okay, because we don't know
how long it took him to wake up. He said
he came to some consciousness, but he doesn't know how
long that period of time was. He couldn't see, he
couldn't hear very well, he couldn't breathe very well. All
(26:41):
of his senses were muffled, and he knew he was
being taken care of. He could feel people like occasionally
moving him. He could feel heat on his chest, but
he was in a lot of pain. He was having
a hard time breathing, but he knew people were caring
for him, and he figured he was going in and
out of consciousness, and he was in the hospital and
finally he got his eyesight to focus on this thing
(27:03):
that was on his chest because light and heat was
coming off of it. So they were yelling him with
like frequencies and light rays and things like like red
light therapy and blue light therapy, I guess. So he
could see this device on his chest and finally his
eyes could focus on that, and then he could start
to focus a greater distance. So at one point he's
looking at this device and he's trying to see further.
(27:23):
He's seeing the light and the ceiling above him, and
all of a sudden, these three gray beings look over
him and he freaks out. He knows I'm not in Kansas, right.
That's when he freaked out. Kind of came too quickly
because he was freaked. Rolled off the table, this device,
rolled off of it, and looked for some tools, which
(27:44):
there seemed to be some medical tools there, and he
grabbed something he thought was a glass tube and tried
to break it, but it wouldn't break, but he was
banging it on the table.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
He had been on freaking.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
These anly, these gray aliens out and they tried to
probably contain him. They lifted their hands up and tried
to kind of get inside his brain, he thinks. And
when they couldn't do it, they kind of each.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Other and said.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
The room scary guys were the freaky thing. And he
said he felt like they were really trying to pry
into his brain. But then the next incredible thing that happens,
besides him finding this other room in the craft, which
he called the navigation room, he then is rescued per
se by whom someone he thought was, you know, a
(28:35):
NASA astronaut. He thought this person was human, a little
taller than him. Blue jumpsuit, helmet on his head that
had a light in it lighting up his face.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Blonde, very beautiful people.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Beautiful muscular person comes in, takes his arm, leads him
out of this disc shaped craft across a tarmac into
another medical thing.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
But it was wasn't really tarmac was all inside of him.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Well, it was like he was inside an airline hangar
alane hanger, except there were other discs, not discs. There
were other crafts sitting over there that were egg shaped craft.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
It's just so tax we're talking consistency because he's told
me these very things, which is fascinating. Yes, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And so Travis ran into two species.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Nobody talked about.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Two species in ninety seventy five.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah, probably working in tandem.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The Grays had parked their disc craft. Now, maybe the
Grays were worker bees for these name name maybe Nordi.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
It's another theory.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Like all these. Was he on a mother ship?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Was he in an underground base, was he you know,
out in space? Was he on another planet? We don't
freaking know. But in the second version of the film,
the twenty seventeen version, which is the only version I
have out now for sale and it's on YouTube. People
can watch for free now on YouTube. We went in
depth in the second version and did a graphic reenactment
(30:06):
of this with CGI and everything of exactly what happened
on the craft. And I think it's well worth watching.
And when I speak with Travis, which I'll be doing
in Rosweld this year, I actually show an earlier version
of that reenactment that's not edited the way it's edited
in the film, so it's clearly the reenactment. You can
(30:27):
almost like a cartoon version of what happened to him,
from the moment he wakes up until the moment he
goes back out.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Because that's the.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Thing that people are really curious about Oh yeah, and
you know what the younger generations, I hate to say this,
you know, but they don't read, but they get all
their information on sound bites right off the tube and TikTok,
and they don't know the story and they're all confused
about it. So but they're curious about it, ye too, ye.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
So you know, I got to tell you this funny
story because you'll appreciate itsary. So I contact Travis, said, uh,
that happens to land on whatever night I was doing
my show at that time. It was either Tuesday or Wednesday.
So I said, is there a way I can have
you on the phone during that, you know, when you're
(31:15):
there at the site and visiting the site. And he said, well, yeah,
but the phones don't come in there. So I said,
all right, I'll send you a satellite phone, a rent
one and send it to you. And I did so.
So I was in touch with Alejandro Ross at the time,
who was there. So Alejandro and I I'm calling Alejandro
(31:36):
and I said, Alejandro is uh is Travis there? And
he said, yep, he just showed it. He showed up late.
But he just showed up, you know. And so I go, oh, hey,
can you go ask him to, you know, start the
satellite phone so he can do the show. So he goes, oh,
I guess what, Travis left it at home. So I
rented it, had a ship to his home and he
(31:58):
forgot it. So anyway, I said, well, Alejandro, I'm talking
to you, hand the phone over to drivers. That he did,
and we pulled it off. We had him there on
the location.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
That was pretty funny.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I have so much respect for Alejandro.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
He and a significant other, Karen ran the fortieth anniversary conference.
I ran the thirty ninth by default. I was there
to film and I ended up having to run it
when I showed up.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, well, I'm glad you're doing this. Memory good Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's fun. But anyway, it's always been a pleasure of Jennifer.
Really nice to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Really is a pleasure to speak with you too.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I will mention too, for anybody who lives in the
Arizona area. On November fifth, the actual anniversary Film Festivals
doing two screenings of the film, which.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Is really nice.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
So we'll do Q and A there and on November eighth,
we're also doing an event for Phoenix move On excellent,
a lot of opportunity to celebrate.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's great, all right, thanks and we'll talk to you
again another time.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
I so look forward to it.
Jennifer Stein. Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Thank you Martin. Such a pleasure to be with.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
It's always great to see you. You have such a
great smile and great energy and we.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Have a mutual admiration.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Yeah, oh, thank you. Other So, anyway, you on Wings Films.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
That's yeah, on Wings Productions Productions. Yes, it's been the
production company for a long time plus. I've been involved
in mouf On forever, like twenty five years now. Philadelphia
is where I started, and then I moved to Arizona
in twenty twenty one and I wasn't there long and
Stacey right grabbed me around the neck and said, you're
doing programs in Sedona. I went, I am, I don't
(00:49):
live in Sedona. She said, yeah, but you can do it.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
How far away are you from Sedona? An hour and
a half okay? And is that I've been there. It's beautiful, gorgeous.
And a friend of mine went there and he called
me right away. He's not into UFO's base, and I
had a UFO setting and he goes and guess what
it ended up being starlink. But there is something about
the Sedona area. Yes, that's unusual that things seem to
(01:16):
happen there.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
And breaking right now with Ross Colhart and Melinda Leslie
is the information about Bradshaw Ranch, which is basically an
underground military base there. It's been there forever, but there's
been very unusual sightings that I've gone out a couple
times with Melinda and seen very unusual lights like coming
right up out of the ground, going up into the
(01:39):
you know, into space, and very unusual activity. Lots of helicopters,
military helicopters circling, unusual orbs and.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So there's strange stuff going on there. There's definitely vortexas there,
energy war Texas, and it's also a place where like
rapid synchronicity takes place. You know, you're driving in a Sedona,
you're thinking you got to meet somebody. You stop the
car to pick up a juice at Juice Bless and
you're walking and there's the person you need to talk to.
It's like that happens all the time for me in Sedona.
(02:07):
It's it's like a high energy space where things just
coagulate and happen and like very spontaneously. But all you
have to do is kind of think about stuff that
you need that you know needs to happen, and then
it happens for you.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Wow, I think I might need to move there. No,
it does sound. I love that area. I've spent some
time out there and that whole Phoenix area. Really enjoy it.
You know. The Frank Lloyd Right place is so beautiful.
But I mean there was a reason he moved there,
that's right. You know.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
My dad was an architect and he actually he worked
for a firm in Chicago before he moved to Philadelphia,
and they did work with Frank Lloyd Right, and Frank
admired my dad's drawings, and my dad admired Frank Loyd's
rights work, so he bought he built him out an
house in Pennsylvania, sort of like Frankloyd Right I might
have done.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Wow, And so I have.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Of course, whenever people come to visit, I take them.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
To the Frankloyd Wright House.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
It's really beautiful, right right, Well, that's something in Chicago.
What great architecture there is in Chicago. I love going
through Chicago and they're looking at the architecture of the
River Tour where you can seal all those beautiful buildings
and yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. And you know when they
had if they didn't have the Great Chicago Fire. And no,
we're getting way off topic. But I mean you just
(03:27):
think of all the changes and they had to elevate,
you know, a lot of the city and all that.
They had to do a lot. But yeah, that's fascinating.
So I know, way off the uf AL topic. We
have to get back there. You're doing Scarfire Skyfire Summit,
so talk about that. Is this is this the nineteen
seventy five so this.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Is the fiftieth anniversary of Travis story.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So I made the documentary about Travis Walton and the
other loggers in twenty fifteen in preparation for the fortieth
anniversary celebration, and i'd work I started at around twenty
twelve twenty thirteen. I worked on it over over time
and had the wonderful help of Stanton Friedman and Rich Dolan,
(04:14):
Lee Spiegel, Peter Robbins. So we produced that in twenty fifteen,
and then I had to reproduce it in twenty seventeen
because of a rights issue I had with some of
the archive footage that Stanton had helped me acquire. But
the guy I bought the rights from never signed my
contract after the film started winning awards, so I had
(04:37):
written him a check for it, but he never signed
my contract, and finally, after two years, I got a
seasoned desist letter from him, so I went, well, I
can either try to take him to court because I
thought we had an agreement. We had emails, you know,
we had agreed for payment. But it was just simpler
to go buy other archive footage. So I dropped his footage,
remade the film, put in new archive footage, and did
(05:00):
some more in depth interviews, which I was really glad
I did because I was able to add in Travis's
brother Don. I was able to add in Chuck Ellison,
which I hadn't gotten in the first film, so David
Jacob so I added in, made it a little more
in depth, and I did some great CGI in the
second version.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So the type of way one type of way. It
was like what they call a happy happy accident.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I guess yes.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Plus it also gave me the opportunity to relaunch the
film in film festivals because it was a revised version,
so they a lot of films happened that way. You
make a film and then you launch it, and then
you realize, oh I could have done this or that,
or you have a rights issue, or somebody tries to
sue you for something, and then you just you have
to go about, you know, fusing it. So I did that,
(05:46):
and now, believe it or not, it's been ten years.
It's the fiftieth anniversary coming up. And something I have
done with Travis over the years since we celebrated the
fortieth anniversary is I tried to mark the anniversary every
year doing something. So for a while we did things
on the West coast, then we did some things on
the East coast. We did a speaking tour around the anniversary,
(06:08):
so almost every year. In one year, in twenty twenty one,
we did a virtual worldwide conference on the anniversary of
his event.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I think that's.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Mostly because of part of it, partially because of COVID,
but also partially because in twenty twenty one there was
a big debunking campaign that came out with.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
UFO classified Erica Luke's program and Ryan Gordon. They seemed
to think that they were going to pick apart the
story of Travis, and they also picked apart the Betty
and Barney Hill story. And this was done on two
continents in Australia and in America, a website launched called
something I'll think of it in a minute, ten key
(06:51):
penny or something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
It was.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
A gown named Charlie Wood I think her name was
or Charlie, and she put a whole campaign on a
website together saying these abduction stories, these classic UFO stories,
are all fake. And then Ryan Gordon shows up and
starts debunking Travis Walton's case, and that happened started in
twenty twenty, but it went on for a year. And
(07:18):
they picked apart the fire in the Sky film, they
picked apart in my film. They confuse the facts. I mean,
it was the typical debunking thing. Destroy the character of
the person and make them look like a juvenile delinquent,
go after key pieces, you know, and take up them apart.
And it didn't really stand its weight. It was easy
(07:40):
to see what they were doing. Most people who understood
debunking started texting me and calling me and saying, Jen,
do you realize what they're doing? I said yes, but
you know, there's always been debunkers and it had the
classic mark. It was amazing to me. It's a classic mark,
as if Philip Class had come back from the dead, because.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
These were the same things that Philip Klass did.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
In fact, Ryan Gordon recorded people and then took their
audio and changed it around and said to say things
they didn't say, or cut out important pieces that would
have made more sense. And I was like, wow, this
is amazing and stuff that had happened to Travis when
he was thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, and Snowflake he was digging
up and saying, you know, always a juvenile delinquent and whatnot,
(08:21):
which of course wasn't true. So what happened is towards
the end of these podcasts, which went on for six
seven months, finally one of these guys shows up, named
Robert Schaefer. And I had done research with Stanton Friedman
and Kathleen Martin in some archives, especially in Philadelphia where
I lived, the American Philosophical Society, and there was a
(08:44):
lot of information on Philip Class there and his techniques
and what he did, and a lot of correspondence between
Robert Schaeffer and Philip. And I understood that Robert Schaefer
went to Northwestern University where Jay Allen Heinig had been
the chief astronomer. Robert Schaeffer as a graduate student, was
sort of hired or enlisted or promoted or coached to
(09:09):
watch Jay Allen Heinek. So Robert Schaeffer became a debunker
right along with Philip Class. And I believe, although I'm
not certain, but I'm very suspectful that when Robert Class died,
Robert Schaeffer kind of adopted or picked up his materials,
certainly his mission. And I think that Robert Schaeffer was
behind this big debunking campaign and probably hired or enlisted
(09:34):
or coached Ryan Gordon. So, you know, like the breadcrumbs
lead back. So what happened in that year in twenty
twenty one is Ron Janix, who produces this conference, contacted
me along with Jordan Pease who was working with him,
and he said, you know, we should really do a
virtual event on the anniversary of Travis Wallman's case because
this is absurd what's going on. I mean, they literally
(09:57):
said that Travis never saw a U What he was
looking at was a fire tower instead, and it was
lit up at night, and that's why he looked up
and thought this was a UFO. And fire towers have
these beams on them, these light alls where they can
signal other fire towers far away. But fire towers only
(10:19):
exist in the sid Grays National Forest at the very
highest parts of the mountain so that they can signal
one another. They weren't down in the Turkey Springs Valley
where they were, so there's no way it could have
been the fire tower because it was five miles away.
But people bought it. People who haven't been there, they
bought it, you know, They're like, oh, it could have
been the fire tower. And then they said his brother
(10:42):
hid out up there, hit him with a beam of
light and Travis just jumped back twenty feet and then
laid there like he was dead, you know, and all
the boys and the crew were so scared they drove away. Well,
these boys drove by the fire tower every day.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They knew where it was.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
They wouldn't look like that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Sure, they weren't going to work.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
They were going to mistake it. So in twenty twenty one,
we did a big exposay online about this and we had.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
On with it.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
We had we had this wonderful tribute and I think
it helped Travis and the other guys in the crew
feel and recognize that educated that's done some reading knows that,
and that people that are educated don't take these tactics seriously.
So that was all the more reason I thought I
(11:39):
should continue to go on and try to mark some anniversaries,
and certainly the fiftieth anniversary is an important one. So
I undertook about a year ago to plan a conference,
and I was trying to plan it in Snowflake. I
was going to put it on up there because that's
his hometown. And I talked to the head of the
Kawanas Club. I talked to the Chamber of con. I
(12:00):
talked to people in Hebrew. I talked to the mayor.
I talked to the police chiefs. You know, I couldn't
get any of them to consider running an annual conference
up there, because I said, look, it'll be an economic
boom you'll bring in. You could bring in easily for
the Kawanas Club if if they got behind it and
ran it. Theo extident of Hampshire or pine Bush or
(12:21):
McMinnville right or Rosweld. I said, look, I know all
the people I can put you in touch with the
business manager of these are the conference coordinators you could
bring in ten twenty thirty forty thousand dollars for your
local charities. They wouldn't touch it with a ten football.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
They don't want to be associated.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
With this isn't that funny?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
And I just I was just really saddened by that,
and it kind of made me feel sorry for all
these loggers who came out of Snowflake. So I was
running Sedona Muffon already for two years and I thought, well,
just heck, I already have a venue I'm using there.
I'm going to keep it small. There's only one hundred
and seventy five seats at this conference. The people who
know that want to be there, who want to come
(13:01):
and honor Travis and want to mark what's happening in
the world right now because now disclosure we I think
we live in a post disclosure world, but some people
think we're right on the brink of the precipice of it.
With congressional hearings that are legitimate hearings. You can now
hear about UFOs on the nightly.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
News, right it's you know, it's.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Immugination, Ross Colhart.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
You can't like put it under the rug anymore. So
I just said, you know what, I'm going to do
the conference in Sedona. There's only one hundred and seventy
five seats. We will sell out. It's a four day conference.
We're screening Accidental Truth on Friday night. We have an
all day program on Saturday with Don Schmidt who will
be in. He'll be talking about Rosweld. We'll also be
(13:47):
talking about basically secrecy to transparency. What has gone on
in the last eighty years and why is this such
a big kafuffle? You know, how do you educate the
public in two three, four years when you've kept something
secret for eighty years? Generations have grown up thinking UFOs are,
you know, a laughing matter, So how do you begin
(14:10):
to educate them how serious this issue is? Because everything
is tied to the UFO issue. You know, if you
look at our military, look at our space programs, look
at our finance, look at our black budget, look at
our economic problems, look at mind control, look at the
psychology and sociology departments at major universities. You know, just
(14:32):
look at governmental history, the Robertson panel, and I just
heard that Arrow has been has gone out of business.
Arrow has now been defunded and Deep Platform because they're
not doing anything. So Trump said, look, if you're not
going to research UFOs, I'm not going to fund you.
So we continue to go through this, you know, figure
(14:53):
eight loop of deception and confusion. Just a couple of
days ago, I think Arrow got defunded.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Wow. Well yeah, I mean I had a talk with
Ross Coldheart about Arrow, and you know, I mean there's
some things I didn't agree that they were really It's
like window dressing in a way.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You know, Yes, they weren't really doing the research. And
the whistleblowers that Ross is brought forward, they came forward
because they gave testimony, they gave written reports, like David Grush,
and they ignored them. They wouldn't look at them. They said, no,
there doesn't seem to be any evidence. And the same
with Jack Jake Barber. He came forward and said, look,
I've got information, this is the work I've done, these
(15:35):
are the projects I've worked on. And they didn't accept
his testimony, so he went to the news. So we're
living in a day and age when whistleblowers are going
to change the reality.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
It seems like it seems like it could be heading
that way. Now, going back to Travis and Philip lass
Class and all that. Yes, there was a rumor and
I don't know if it was substantiated that Philip tried
to write a check for ten grand. So Steve would
say that.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
This never happened, never happened, Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
What would be the incentive of him writing that type
of check?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Well, me, the onother good question to ask Martin is
where would he come up with that money?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And why would and why why would it be paid?
Is that just to you know, I mean Steve.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Pierce was the youngest member of the crew. He was
only seventeen. Yeah, they didn't really he shouldn't have been
out there logging until he was eighteen in terms of
insurance for what you know, the crew boss, Mike Rogers,
had a contract with the Fort Service, so the guys
all had to be eighteen or older to work there.
So he was kind of underage, and I think he
(16:42):
was trying to hide that. Now, all of these guys
came from you know, very you know, struggling families, I
will say, And these boys went out to get a
job and work, like Travis did, so he could help
support his family, you know. So Steve was helping his mom.
His dad was long gone, and he had a good job.
(17:04):
He didn't want to lose it. He didn't want to
admit that he was under age, and he was on
the floorboards when they saw that UFO.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
He was hiding under the He was trying to climb.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Under the seat of the back of the cab where
he was sitting because he was so freaked out when
he saw it. When they finally spotted it, they all
knew it was a UFO. I mean there was no doubt.
They didn't look up and say, oh, is that a satellite?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Is that Venus? I mean no, John Gouled said he was.
He said it was like.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Looking at a brand new corvette or something I would
never see or get close to. That's why Travis jumped
out of the truck. It was this incredible piece of
machinery and Travis just wanted a really good look at it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
It didn't Steve do a painting of it?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I mean, yes, Mike Rogers, Mikeers, it was the group boss,
very talented painter.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
In fact, Mike was very kind.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
He gave me permission to use his art in the film,
which I was very grateful for.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So. Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So Steve was the youngest member of the crew. He
was also a little freaked out, and they were also
all these boys were interrogated by the police while they
were hunting for Travis.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
For five days, there was.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Search parties of about one hundred people a day that
went out everything, and there was a shriff or a
police officer or a sergeant or somebody who or a
deputy who was with each group of search parties, directing
them and telling them what to do. And usually all
the crew members said this. Sometime during the day on
each of those five days, the crew boss the crew
(18:39):
members were pushed up against a tree by the deputy
and said, look, maybe you didn't kill Travis, maybe it
was an accident, maybe somebody else did. Obviously he's dead,
you buried him. You're all trying to cover it with
his UFO story. And you can go to jail, you
can hang, you can go to the electric chair as
unless you come clean.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So even if you.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Didn't do it, you better tell us who did. And
so they were all freaked out because obviously they hadn't
killed him. They all saw THISFO. So they all had
to undergo light detection tests, and they were freaked out
by that. They weren't necessarily arrested, but there was a
police officer outside their house for those five days until
they all took the light detection test, and that night
(19:20):
Travis came back. So it was a real calamity of events.
So Steve was very unnerved.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Some of these.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Boys had had what I would call mild police records.
I think Alan Dallas had taken a car when he
was fourteen for a joy ride and left it somewhere,
and he was afraid he was just going to get
put back in jail for something now that he was
like twenty.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
One or something.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
They were in to quote put him in jail for
something he did when he was fourteen, and he didn't
finish the test because he got so pissed off because
he did understand the process was and the light detection.
So Steve Pears changed his name to Jeff, got a
job in Texas. I think he was driving a truck
and really tried to disassociate himself from the story and
(20:03):
from Travis because it was I mean, the ridicule they
underwent was huge in nineteen seventies, five, seventy six, seventy seven,
so I think it was nineteen seventy seven or nineteen
seventy eight. The crew then took multiple light detection tests
because Philip Class came after them saying, oh, they made
it up, it's still not true, whatnot, and that the
(20:25):
boys got exasperated and they didn't want anything to do
with Philip anymore, especially Mike Rogers, who wrote all the
letters for the crew back and forth. Philip Class never
contacted Travis, never tracked him down, never tried to phone him.
He only went after the other members of the crew
because he thought he could manipulate them. He knew he
(20:46):
couldn't manipulate Travis, so he went after the youngest member
of the crew, flew to Texas, took him out to dinner,
and offered him ten thousand dollars to claim that it
never happened, because if he could get one of them
to turn then he had it, then he could really
debunk it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
That sort of happened to in the allegation incident. Yes, yes,
very similar. So here's the thing. I when I've all
the different times I've interviewed Travis. One time I was
interviewing him and I thought, I'm going to try to
ask him something that nobody's ever asked him before. So
I said, Travis, when you were on the ship, where
(21:23):
did you go to the bathroom? I don't think anyone
could arreste that. And he goes, oh, geez, I don't
I don't remember. I mean, did they have urinals? And
and then I said, you know, I mean probably people
have asked him. I said, do you remember any smells?
You know, I mean, you know that type of thing.
He did say that he had a hard time breathing,
(21:45):
you know, which makes sense actually, I mean, you know,
I mean they had something going on there, not maybe
not exactly like you know, one of the things I've
always thought of is, you know, you think of how
when the explorers around the world would show up somewhere
and the indigenous people that bring European diseases and gone
(22:05):
wipe out a whole civilization. And so if these beings
are here walking freely or they're actually interacting, you know,
it makes you wonder is there a different biological things
that can or could have happened, you know, those type
of things.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, that's covered very well in the Virginia case in James.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Oh, yes, that's right.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
So there are different species that have different you know,
conditions that could be quite dangerous. But the grays apparently
have been here abducting people and doing work and whatnot
for a long time. They may be here also taking samples.
And you know, I've thought a lot about the Travis
case and wondering what they were doing up there on
(22:47):
that mogi on Rim and the sid Graves National Forest hiding.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
They were really tucked below the canopy of the trees.
There had been a tree.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
There that we ended up nicknaming the nat Geo Tree
because now Geographic came up and did an expose and
that tree ended up becoming it was gone. It was
cut the year before this event happened. It was cut
in nineteen seventy four because I think it had gotten
hit by lightning and it was dying, so they cut
(23:15):
it down.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But it was so big. It was a three hundred
year old tree.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
And the canopy that it took up created a hole
in the other trees.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
So this craft with twenty foot disc craft was sitting
in that canopy.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
It was only fifteen feet off the ground, so it's
about the the height of our ceiling here, and it
was lighting up the whole forest. But it wasn't up high,
so people didn't really see it. It came in and
was sort of hiding. My suspicion is that mogion Rim
is not far from the Trinity Test sites in New Mexico.
(23:52):
So if you were looking at where a fallout would
have happened, it would have happened first on that Moggion Rim.
It's seven thousand feet high and it covers parts of
New Mexico into northern Arizona, then straight on up into Colorado.
It's the largest Ponderosa pine forest in the world and
it's mostly a flat rim, right, So if you're going
(24:14):
to have settling, you would have fallout happening there. And
a lot of people in Snowflake had cancer, cancers, lukini as,
things like that, So possibly they were there doing some
biological tree sampling or soil sampling or something, and when
these boys discovered it on their way out, I mean,
(24:35):
I don't know if it was planned or not. I
don't really think it was.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I think it was accidental.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So when they came upon it and Travis got out,
I think it was trying to raise up and take off,
and there's a lot of electric static charge there. There's
a lot of folgarites in the ground, there's a lot
of magnetism or magnetite in that land mass there. As
it was rising up, it built up a static electric charge.
(25:02):
All the boys felt it, you know, and like if
they'd had their work hats on, they would have been
sitting up on their heads, you know that. When Travis
was so close to it, he squatted down to watch
it a little more. It started to make weird sounds,
it started to rise up. He felt the electric charge.
The boys were screaming at him, get something's gonna happen,
and get back in the truck. Come on, you know,
(25:23):
what'd you do? And Travis stood up to run back
to the truck, and at the moment he stood up,
that's when it hit him. So I think it was
a reactive electrical charge that came out of the craft
that wasn't intentional, and it threw him like a grenade
had gone off. John Goulette talked about that. He was
in the military, he was in the Navy, and he
(25:44):
saw people being blown up with grenades, and he said
it was just like he'd gotten hit by either a
moving vehicle or a grenade or something like that. It
just was very powerful, and when he landed he crumpled up.
He made no attempt to.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Break his fall.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
He didn't move after he landed, and Mike Rogers thought, well,
we're going to get hit next. They didn't know if
it was deliberate or not, so they drove away, and
you know, hence all the speculation that they killed him.
But I think that they actually did kill Travis accidentally.
Then they picked him up again when the boys drove away.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
So he is.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
His story on board the craft is a very interesting story,
especially for nineteen seventy five, Okay, because we don't know
how long it took him to wake up. He said
he came to some consciousness, but he doesn't know how
long that period of time was. He couldn't see, he
couldn't hear very well, he couldn't breathe very well. All
(26:41):
of his senses were muffled, and he knew he was
being taken care of. He could feel people like occasionally
moving him. He could feel heat on his chest, but
he was in a lot of pain. He was having
a hard time breathing, but he knew people were caring
for him, and he figured he was going in and
out of consciousness, and he was in the hospital and
finally he got his eyesight to focus on this thing
(27:03):
that was on his chest because light and heat was
coming off of it. So they were yelling him with
like frequencies and light rays and things like like red
light therapy and blue light therapy, I guess. So he
could see this device on his chest and finally his
eyes could focus on that, and then he could start
to focus a greater distance. So at one point he's
looking at this device and he's trying to see further.
(27:23):
He's seeing the light and the ceiling above him, and
all of a sudden, these three gray beings look over
him and he freaks out. He knows I'm not in Kansas, right.
That's when he freaked out. Kind of came too quickly
because he was freaked. Rolled off the table, this device,
rolled off of it, and looked for some tools, which
(27:44):
there seemed to be some medical tools there, and he
grabbed something he thought was a glass tube and tried
to break it, but it wouldn't break, but he was
banging it on the table.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
He had been on freaking.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
These anly, these gray aliens out and they tried to
probably contain him. They lifted their hands up and tried
to kind of get inside his brain, he thinks. And
when they couldn't do it, they kind of each.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Other and said.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
The room scary guys were the freaky thing. And he
said he felt like they were really trying to pry
into his brain. But then the next incredible thing that happens,
besides him finding this other room in the craft, which
he called the navigation room, he then is rescued per
se by whom someone he thought was, you know, a
(28:35):
NASA astronaut. He thought this person was human, a little
taller than him. Blue jumpsuit, helmet on his head that
had a light in it lighting up his face.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Blonde, very beautiful people.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Beautiful muscular person comes in, takes his arm, leads him
out of this disc shaped craft across a tarmac into
another medical thing.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
But it was wasn't really tarmac was all inside of him.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Well, it was like he was inside an airline hangar
alane hanger, except there were other discs, not discs. There
were other crafts sitting over there that were egg shaped craft.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
It's just so tax we're talking consistency because he's told
me these very things, which is fascinating. Yes, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And so Travis ran into two species.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Nobody talked about.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Two species in ninety seventy five.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah, probably working in tandem.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The Grays had parked their disc craft. Now, maybe the
Grays were worker bees for these name name maybe Nordi.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
It's another theory.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Like all these. Was he on a mother ship?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Was he in an underground base, was he you know,
out in space? Was he on another planet? We don't
freaking know. But in the second version of the film,
the twenty seventeen version, which is the only version I
have out now for sale and it's on YouTube. People
can watch for free now on YouTube. We went in
depth in the second version and did a graphic reenactment
(30:06):
of this with CGI and everything of exactly what happened
on the craft. And I think it's well worth watching.
And when I speak with Travis, which I'll be doing
in Rosweld this year, I actually show an earlier version
of that reenactment that's not edited the way it's edited
in the film, so it's clearly the reenactment. You can
(30:27):
almost like a cartoon version of what happened to him,
from the moment he wakes up until the moment he
goes back out.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Because that's the.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Thing that people are really curious about Oh yeah, and
you know what the younger generations, I hate to say this,
you know, but they don't read, but they get all
their information on sound bites right off the tube and TikTok,
and they don't know the story and they're all confused
about it. So but they're curious about it, ye too, ye.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
So you know, I got to tell you this funny
story because you'll appreciate itsary. So I contact Travis, said, uh,
that happens to land on whatever night I was doing
my show at that time. It was either Tuesday or Wednesday.
So I said, is there a way I can have
you on the phone during that, you know, when you're
(31:15):
there at the site and visiting the site. And he said, well, yeah,
but the phones don't come in there. So I said,
all right, I'll send you a satellite phone, a rent
one and send it to you. And I did so.
So I was in touch with Alejandro Ross at the time,
who was there. So Alejandro and I I'm calling Alejandro
(31:36):
and I said, Alejandro is uh is Travis there? And
he said, yep, he just showed it. He showed up late.
But he just showed up, you know. And so I go, oh, hey,
can you go ask him to, you know, start the
satellite phone so he can do the show. So he goes, oh,
I guess what, Travis left it at home. So I
rented it, had a ship to his home and he
(31:58):
forgot it. So anyway, I said, well, Alejandro, I'm talking
to you, hand the phone over to drivers. That he did,
and we pulled it off. We had him there on
the location.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
That was pretty funny.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I have so much respect for Alejandro.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
He and a significant other, Karen ran the fortieth anniversary conference.
I ran the thirty ninth by default. I was there
to film and I ended up having to run it
when I showed up.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, well, I'm glad you're doing this. Memory good Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's fun. But anyway, it's always been a pleasure of Jennifer.
Really nice to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Really is a pleasure to speak with you too.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I will mention too, for anybody who lives in the
Arizona area. On November fifth, the actual anniversary Film Festivals
doing two screenings of the film, which.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Is really nice.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
So we'll do Q and A there and on November eighth,
we're also doing an event for Phoenix move On excellent,
a lot of opportunity to celebrate.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's great, all right, thanks and we'll talk to you
again another time.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
I so look forward to it.
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