September 11, 2025 • 56 mins
Katie Paige – author, researcher, and leading voice on high strangeness – joins Martin Willis to discuss her groundbreaking work at Rocky Mountain Ranch Research L.L.C., founded in 2024. This historic Colorado property, once known as Clearview Ranch, is one of the most active and well-documented anomalous hotspots in the United States, with a legacy dating back to the mid-1970s and featured in books, documentaries, and popular series including Beyond Skinwalker Ranch. Katie’s work spans UFOs, paranormal activity, cryptids, and anomalous phenomena. She has appeared on History Channel’s Beyond Skinwalker, The UnXplained with William Shatner, Travel Channel’s UFO Witness, Gaia’s Beyond Belief with George Noory, Small Town Monsters: On the Trail of UFOs – Night Visitors, and Ron James’s films Accidental Truth and Accidental Truth Next. A last minute surprise, researcher Tony Angoila joins us!
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Speaker 1 (00:26):
Hello, and welcome to the show. Martin Willashire host. Actually
in the mountains in New Hampshire right now. Next week
I'll be back in Portsmanth, New Hampshire and moving all
around here. So great guests tonight. Tony Angiola, who I've
known for many years, been on the show many times,
and also Katie Page. I think Katie's been on just
(00:46):
once in the past. They're both on together. The focus
of the show is going to be on the mutation
of Snippy the horse, which was actually the first. They
may tell me I'm wrong here, but I think it
was the first type of animal mutilation. I believe it
was October fifth or something like that, nineteen sixty seven.
(01:09):
Maybe off from the date too. I don't have any
of that in front of me. I'm just throwing these
numbers out, but without further ado. Well, just a couple thanks.
First of all, thank you everyone for being here. Thank
you for those who support the show. And we have
hundreds of blogs over at podcast UFO Merchandise all of that,
so PODCASTUFO dot Com and all the informations over there,
(01:34):
and I guess that's enough for now. I'm going to
bring in our guests. Hello, you too.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I you doing, Martin. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Glad to be here with you as well, Katie. Was
great to see you contact in the desert and a
lot of fun out there, wasn't it. I can't wait
for next year.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, it's always a great time out there. So hopefully
we see a lot of you that are watching out
there for the next event.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I know, I couldn't believe the amount of people. It
is amazing the amount. But what fun in the hallways
and everything talking everybody was awesome fun. So Tony, I've
always enjoyed having you on the show many times. I
think you've probably been on five times over the years,
something like that. And now you're a Midwestern guy, you're
out in Colorado. That's awesome, beautiful, beautiful area to live.
(02:22):
Great weather. I'm sure you can appreciate the weather after
being in the on the East coast for all those years.
I think it's great weather out there, was when I
was there. But anyway, so I have to ask you
why Snippy and I have some questions about that. You know,
why Snippy the horse? What made you look at that
(02:44):
situation and do all the research on that?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, that's a great question, Martin. But three years back
I got a call from a gentleman named Carrie King,
and he is the descendant his grant at Nelly owned
Snippy the horse, and he wanted to start some events
and kind of revive Snippy and bring them back. His Snippy,
if for those that don't know, was really the first
(03:08):
world recognized before viral was a thing. Literally the mutilation
is Snippy went viral around the world, newspaper headlines all
over the place. So there were a few mutilations before Snippy,
but this was the one that really put animal death
and strange mutilations on the map. And so got to
know Snippy, and he knew of my work. I'm the
(03:30):
former state director for Colorado moof on, which is the
mutual UFO network, and I've done a lot of work
on the Rocky Mountain ranch of my childhood, which is
featured on Beyond Skinwalker. So he knew of my research
and that I've done there, and he invited me out
to kind of speak at that first Snippy event and
then the second, and now we just had the third,
which the third was the first time it was opened
(03:51):
to the public for tickets. It was a really fun event.
Many great speakers there as well, your friend Mark de
Antonio one of them, their astronomer, and they had doctor
Shaw and Tony and Ben and a lot of other people. Yeah,
it was a good turnout, Doctor Simeon Hine and Eric
Hecker and Nash the yes SEV Talk and the paranormal
(04:13):
Rangers and on and on. So it was a fantastic event.
But so you know, years ago in the eighties, I
think it was the second event out there in the
San Luis Valley. You know, the question of Snippy's name
came up. Is it Lady? Is it Snippy? And the
King family, which, like I said, these are the descendants
from the original owners of the horse, Aunt Nelly and Burle,
(04:34):
and they had a lot of photos that were never
seen before. And so we were learning about these different
horses that were pastured on the King ranch and lo
and behold. Around the same time, David Marler at the
National UFO Historical Record Center gets the original APRO files
back that we're missing for over thirty five years. So
(04:55):
nobody really had access to those files for all those decades.
And I went to visit and you know, selfishly, I
was looking for more documents on the Rocky Mountain ranch.
And turns out Dave comes over and just plops down
just stacks and stacks of documents from the Snippy case,
hundreds of never before seen photographs, and a lot of
(05:19):
auto recordings. So this opened up over six months that
the King family basically had Tony and I reopened the
Snippy case and kind of start wrong, you know, getting
the facts correct. And it kind of really started with
the name of the horse. So, yes, that's Captain back there,
(05:41):
say hi to Captain.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Hey, Captain, good doggie, Good doggie. So yeah, let's just
we talked a little bit before the show and let's
just uh snip this in the bud, so to speak.
But there was some of that said that the horse's
name was not Snippy, it was Lady. So let's just
clear that up right off the bat. And how that
(06:03):
I don't understand why there was a confusion of why
someone tried to change the whole thing. But the horse
is definitely a male, and you know you still have
evidence of that today in the bones right and everything
you want to.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Talk about that sure, I mean that all begin it
all started with Burl Lewis as early as nineteen sixty nine.
First of all, the horse was found September seventh of
nineteen sixty seven. It went missing on September seventh. But
the this is a picture of the bones, the hip bones.
As you can see, the male has kind of like
a triangle upside down triangle. A female would be a
(06:38):
normal triangle for birthing. In fact, Larry mess of the
ufl Watchtower said to his mother Judy that these are
the hips of a male horse, long long ago when
they first acquired the bones, which was amazing. But we
also had this analyze with Ai. With several photographs that
we got directly from the watch tower of the bones,
we were able to verify that the these in fact
(07:00):
were the bones of Snippy because the bullet holes matched up.
We also confirmed it through other books written by Herman
Dodi called Bones in a Box Car, and we took
what clues we could get from his book as well.
But everything points to this being a male gelding horse,
which is a male horse three years castrated, older than
three years old. And it's not a philly, which would
(07:21):
be a female. And it's not a mare which would
be older than four years old. So getting the terminology
correct was important. Making sure that we had the right
bones and the right sex was important as well. But
beyond anything that any mighty knows about this horse, I
outlined seventeen points in the book that Katie also was
(07:42):
tearing a part as we went through all this documentation.
It's not just the surgical incision around the neck that
everyone so used to seeing, but Nelly points out a
lot of our audio that the cuts went all the
way to the bone, and that nobody can make such
a perfect decision, even with a sharp surgical knife, without
causing a jag somewhere. Even more peculiars that the skull
(08:02):
was bone dry within one day, which is crazy because
there were other horses dead for a year out in
the sand dunes that they were able to. There you go,
there's a picture. It's about that. One's about a month old.
That picture there, And.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I want you to point out the rear left hind
leg was also bare like the head and neck.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They didn't mention it too much, but that rear left
hind leg was bare to the bone of flesh, and
the right leg was broken as if it was dropped
from above. And someone once said to us, well, if
you drop a horse from above, it's going to fall
ahead first, that's true, but not if it's missing all
of its meat and flesh and liquids. There's not a
drop of blood anywhere, And what you see on the
(08:42):
ground there is not blood. People mistake that for blood.
And to this day we're not quite sure what that
stain is.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
It's like a black tar. But let's get back to
the horse's name. There's a picture there that was very
important along with documents, and it's the only two known
photographs of Snippy a lot ever. And when I first founidly,
I was on the phone right away with the king family. So,
and what's cool about a lot of the most of
the photos that were in the APO documents is they
(09:10):
all had writing on the backs of the photos or
had documentation to go along with them. So as you
can see, this particular photo is dated July twenty eighth,
nineteen sixty nine. It says, here is an eight x
ten color photo I had printed up from a negative
that Nellie Lewis had taken a Snippy as a cult
and lady her mother. This is the only known photograph
of Snippy as a cult. So and there's another one
(09:33):
with Lady and Snippy and Burle. I don't know if
I sent that one to you, but there is late mother,
Lady and Snippy as a cult.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Two separate horses.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, two separate horses. And then the document that I
just sent you. Okay, well yeah, hold on.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I'm bocessing around just because I was trying to find it.
But here's a document. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, this is an important document. This is part of
five pages. And this was so cool to find because
it really speaks to how Snippy came to be. Snippy
was a birthday gift given to Nelly Lewis on November fourteenth,
nineteen sixty four. Born in October nineteen sixty four, and
he was one day old when Nelly first saw him.
He was a beautiful little colt. So it goes into
(10:17):
the Snippy's father, Snippy's mother, and what a lot of
people don't know. There were four horses that were pastured
on the King ranch. There was a black horse by
the name of Smokey, and was fascinating is Smoky died
the week before Snippy of what they believed was a
rattle snake bite to the back hip because there was
(10:39):
a little swelling, but a horse, that's what fourteen hands high.
He was a big horse. A rattlesnake bite to the
hip typically will not cause the death of an animal
that large unless it gets it on its snouter nose.
That there is Agnes king with Sheba, so Sheba was
the other horse. You can see that Sheba has no
(11:01):
white markings on her leg. That's Smoky there that died
the week before Snippy, and that left the dapple gray
horse which was Lady Snippy's mother, and then Snippy, the
three year old cult They all had very distinguishing marks.
Snippy actually even had some apple loosa markings. There were
some more photos. This is Sheba and lady mother of Snippy.
(11:25):
Another thing what we learned is that Snippy was never ridden,
so Snippy was only taught to holton lead and was
set to be saddled the week after his mutilation.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Wow, hey, I have a question for you, Tony. Did
I just hear you say a couple of minutes ago
the bullet holes matched up? Did you say that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
In fact, those the bullet holes was a big contention
for a lot of the naysayers, especially from the Conon Committee,
because they wanted to say this horse died of a
really bad infection. In fact, when the horse was found
there was no bullet holes or anything on its hip.
That happened one month after by two teenage boys using
a twenty two caliber pistol at point in blank range,
(12:07):
which actually shattered the hip, and they agreed to sign
an affidavit. They had their guns taken away from them
put in a trunk, and they were really nervous, and
Nelly said, I'm not going to press any charges. As
far as I know, there's no law against shooting a
dead horse. And so that's that's the whole story with
with those those bullet holes.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And that story was on the audio recordings. So there
was hours and hours and hours of audio recordings that
were in the A profiles, all of which until Jalen
Heinik later kind of dubbed over in the late eighties
that know, this was the mayor lady after the disinformation
was put out there. But they all refer to a
hymn and that was always the male was always the
(12:48):
male was always nippy. And in fact, Ernest Wellington, who
was the neighbor of the King Ranch, they're very close together.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
The dead Cow Ranch.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, they called it the Dead Cow Ranch because they
had so many animal deaths right there at the Wellington Ranch.
And Ernest Wellington is the gentleman who was with Nelly
when she found this strange tool and the Chico brush,
and we'll get to that in here in a little
bit around the body of Snippy. But Ernest Wellington's daughter
who now lives in Australia, her name is Leona. She
(13:19):
heard of the book that came out and all the
new research and the photographs we were sharing with her,
and she actually wrote a review on Amazon. You can
go read it. But she's like, you guys, absolutely, I
was there, it was Snippy. It was a three year
old guilding. So just you know, so many you know,
things like that. But one of the pictures I love,
Martin that you have is in those documents. It states
(13:42):
that Lady and Sheba and Snippy were really friendly horses
and they would come and take sugar cubes out of
your hand and all this, and then after Snippy's mutilation,
Sheiba and Lady got so skittish if they heard the
like the click of the old cameras, they would free out.
They were not happy horses. Anymore, and they were very skittish.
(14:04):
And there's pictures of that. One of my favorite pictures.
It's a series of what four or five I think,
where they're trying to get pictures of Lady and Sheba
right after Snippy's mutilation. And you can see the distress
in these horses and in the in the captions underneath.
If you can find that picture, we can bring it up.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Okay, I have a question here for us. If it's
okay if I post, some people are going to be,
you know, posing questions in chat. So what were the
cuts like? Like one of the I think it's saying
on the bone are flaking or through the bone, any
cracks are flaking that would indicate a blade or a knife.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
That's a good question. No, there were no indications that
this was done with a knife or any type of
metal instrument. Because doctor Altschuler, who was quick story. Doctor
Altschuler was always interested in these types of stories. He
was working as a pathology in Denver and just got
the job. He was married with three kids, and he
brought his wife and kids out under the precipice of
(15:07):
taking a little vacation, not knowing that he was going
to disappear for the whole weekend. He went to the
sand dunes overnight soft some UFOs spend the night there,
got captured by the park police who said, look, we
won't press charges if you come with us and analyze
this horse because his horse died in some strange ways
and you're pathologists, can you help us out. So he
was the one who cut into the horse and found
(15:29):
that the laser incision of the horse at a microscopic
level was evident of an extreme molecular heat, and the
laser custom to the bone in a very precise manner
with no blood, and all the organs were removed without
a drop of blood. The brain cavity and inside the neck.
There was no fluid inside the spinal neck or the
neck cavity, which is really unusual too, as if everything
(15:51):
was just dried out from the inside. The heart was missing,
the lungs, all organs were missing, and he was perplexing,
how do you remove a heart without a drop of blood?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So another every yeah, that's really interesting. Another question is,
because I don't know the answer, how long was the
horse supposedly dead for? When's the last time someone saw
the horse alive?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Right?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So on the fourth time when they actually found the horse.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Just a couple of days before the ninth there on
September seventh, he failed to show up for feet or water.
And so Agnes who was Colely King's wife who lived
on the farm there. They're the ones they were pastoring
taking care of the horses, as Burl and Nelly, who
owned the horses, lived in Alamosa for Burl's business, and
they also spent time at the cabin which was about
(16:38):
four miles north of the ranch. So Agnes said to
Harry King, actually because Cold already passed away in sixty one,
Harry King was her son who was taking care of
the ranch and whatnot, she said, I need to go
find that horse tomorrow. And he didn't have time until
the ninth, So that was a Saturday, and he actually
got stuck in the mud. It took him an hour
to find the horse.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
It had been raining a little bit off and on
those few days, which is important. It's important because in
one of the chapters we go through all the hoax
theories or other possible you know, was it lightning. Ben
Phillips was the sheriff out there, and there's audio recordings
of an interview with him is pretty interesting. But you know,
he blamed it on lightning, and clearly that was ruled
(17:20):
out for many different reasons. But also there was this
crazy theory that somebody had gone up and put up
a tripod and put out a big vat of acid
and a container and Hongkoor snippy up and dipped them
in the acid. Which you know, there was no truck marks,
there are no footprints, there were no anything around the carcass,
(17:41):
radiation readings for a high nothing would touch it. In fact,
later when the coyotes and the maggots finally did touch
the carcass, they died of dysentery. So there's so much
to this case. It's just incredible. But yeah, what.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
About what about the circular exit marks and exhaust marks
and squash bushes nearby? Is that also? Is that documented
as true?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, there were as many. There were over fifteen burn marks.
And what's interesting is the government and this is why
Nelly never buried the horse and gave it to doctor Leary,
who's the one who assembled the bones after boiling all
the meat off and all this is because the government
said those burnmarks never existed. And then we had the
conicoman try to say that the burn marks were just
allergy or some some sort of you know, bacteria growing
(18:30):
on the ground. So she said they were there. They
photographed it as best they could, but if she had
buried the horse, they would have said that the horse
never existed either. What's really peculiar. And we found an
interesting witness by the name of the Green News Ernest
No No, the other guy, Joe Spencer. Joe Spencer, he's
(18:54):
the one who told us, hey, did you guys find
out about the green ooze? And at the time we
didn't know about the Green News. We had to go
back to the archives and started digging through the files
again until we found this green ooze. And it turns
out that there was what they call a tool and
it was described as looking like a chicken gizzard and
it was found inside one of the bushes, and there
were puddles all around the horse looked like any freeze.
(19:15):
This green ooze. Now, Joe Spencer said, not only was
the puddles of the ooze green oose, but it looked
like green butter stick.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And they had collected the sample with like uh, you know,
and they took it the conduct committee right, took it
to be tested. They took the tough, the tool tough.
They took some of that green or the hide hair,
they took some of the tar like substance around the head.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Tell us about the colors.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, so when they found Snippy, the head and neck
were like bleach white, like it had been laying there
four years in the sun. A week later they turned
a bright pink color, and a week later they go black.
Very unusual.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Wow, that is that's the whole thing is so. And
there's also I can't forget during this talk, at some point, Katie,
I had told people that you're going to talk about
the ranch also. But there was also somewhere along the line.
I know that Linda Molhaw good involved in this, but
(20:21):
wasn't there some talk about UFOs and being involved or
that was what some of the headlines said at one time, right,
like a UFO kills Snippy the horse or something like that.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
One of the reasons they may have said that was
because there were three fence posts on the north side
of the gate that were sheared off like a lightsaber
went right through them, and they measured the distance between them.
They said that the disc would have to have been
flat about sixty feet in diameter, or perhaps even seventy
five foot, as the ground indentations showed. So amongst all
this other evidence, we find out there was a seventy
(20:53):
five foot circle pressed into the ground and five fifteen
foot circles surrounding that. And what's even more peculiar, and
the reason that we know that these were circles is
because when they were pressing to the ground, it pressed
the sound completely flat and then starts raining. And there
were raindets all around these circles except for where these
discs were pressing down. They pressed down on these Chico
(21:14):
bushes that were three to four feet tall some of them,
and where there were and Chico bushes, it was just
a pressed down, perfect circle of sand.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, a lot like this core case. And it's important
he mentions that seventy five foot in diameter circle because
you mentioned me talking and bringing in the Rocky Mountain
Ranch case. So in nineteen sixty six, a year prior
to prior to Snippy's mutilation, there were several reports of
UFOs and orbs and things ships flying in and out
of Mount Blanco, which is really where Snippy was found,
(21:45):
was at the base of Mount Blanca right there in
the valley. So a lot of reports out there of
strange craft prior to Snippy's mutilation. But that seventy five
foot in diameter circle, Now, that event that my sister
and I had where we're flipping the frisbee and we
looked down and there's that dry circle, perfect circle on
(22:06):
the ground at Rocky Mountain Ranch where nothing grew but
outside it was like wet, heavy snow. That's in the
Appera reports as well. That was also seventy five feet
in diameter. And on UAP Studies podcast, which I'm a
co host on, we had a PhD who did his
dissertation on the uap UFO phenomena and his name is
(22:26):
doctor Pearson, and one of the findings for these dish
shaped craft was in fact the seventy five foot in
diameter circles that are left. And there was just recently
one that was featured on episode one of what's his
name The Alien, Yeah, George Knapp Show, Investigation Alien. And
(22:49):
this rancher out there in Oregon had one of these
circles on his property as well that measured in that
same diameter. So that's very important and there were so
many similarities to the Snippy as to activity out in
the San Luis Valley, and this is why you know,
Tony remembers a lot of these outlier stories. But they
even had a box encounter, these strange boxes that are seen.
(23:10):
Do you want to tell about this kind of box
encounter they had out there in the.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Smar two katies at year ten, she sees this black
box that's levitating off the ground and Burl and Nelly
spotted a very similar box flying through the sky in
this one particular night when they were driving home. There's
missing time events between Leo Sprinkle and some of the
other investigators from Nightcap and APRO, which for the first
(23:33):
time ever and the only time ever came together and
they call it the sort Team or the Space Object
Research Team. So he had a combination of APRO with Richmond,
Don and Alice Richmond, NICAP with Ken Steinmanz and his team.
And it was really interesting because Bill mcfrederie is an
al Ed Boggs who photographed these strange balls of light
which got into the newspaper, grabbing the attention of Don
(23:56):
Richmond and Alice Richmond. Is how they all came together
and they would have these other investigations throughout this the book,
in fact, where they had experienced missing time, black boxes,
boxes on the ground, you know, just all kind of their.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Normal the hitchhiker stuff. And that's what fascinated me too, Martin,
was you know this was you have to remember, this
was really the first recognized or known animal death. And
Nelly and Agnes and others that are we have the
recordings of these people talking about the ConA silence, no blood,
animals not approaching, all the telltale signs of these animal
(24:31):
mutilations that we know well today, they didn't know that then.
And you can just check check check down the list
that they were experiencing all these things back.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Then, right Tony, When you were saying black box like
levitated off the ground, are you talking about, say, a
rectangular shape box, a cube shape box? What do you do?
You know the exact type of box that was recorded.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
What was described by Burrell was as a cube type
of a box. And at first we couldn't quite tell
what he meant by the dimensions. When he first saw
it flying through the sky is when they first saw it.
They got back into the truck and they rushed home
and they had experience and missing time about two and
a half hours. When he used the field glasses or
the binoculars, they called them field glasses, he said he
could see a box on the ground at a distance
(25:18):
on the road and then it was something to the
effect of about maybe twenty five feet high, nine feet
deep and maybe six feet wide. And that triggered my
memory because it reminded me of Trey Hudson in the
Meadows Project where they actually and then well Carl Higdin too,
and Carl Higgin, as you recall, also one where the
alien he encountered had him come into this box where
(25:39):
he said was bigger on the inside than it appeared
in the outside, kind of like.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
You hear those yeah, you hear those things, which sounds
absolutely crazy, but so many people have talked about, you know,
the interior being huge, you know. And then I always
wonder about, you know, Travis Walton's situation. That was so
weird what he talks about when he steps out of
like the craft and like a hangar or something, and
it's just huge, and you know, I don't know mothership,
(26:07):
I don't know what that is. But by the way,
Travis is going to be on in a couple of weeks,
and I'm also going out to Sedona for the event
out there really really quickly. I want to talk about
this Katie. Oh you're going to be there too? Are
you going to be there?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
No, I'm just aversizing, thank.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
You, yes, sk Skyfire Summit. So I just want to say,
I'm going to give you a little bit of a plug, Katie,
because I know you. You were so upset what happened
to You didn't come on my show, you had to
cancel just to recuperate. But your YouTube channel went down
and crashed and burned and everything, and now you're trying
(26:47):
to get it going again. So I'm going to put
the YouTube channel and I want to ask all the
people listening today if you'd support Katie by clicking a subscribe,
you know, become a subscriber to the channel, if you would,
And that'll be down in the texts and.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Talk about that saying. But I was very quickly put
back into my place perspective, because here I am heartbroken.
What happened was I had two channels that were attached
to my one email, and I went to delete the
one with only three subscribers and one video. The other
one had almost thirteen hundred subscriber and I was really
close to being able to monetize, and up popped the box.
(27:24):
You're deleting the one with three subscribers and one video.
I'm like, okay, delete, And then I went and it
was gone. And since it wasn't a branded channel, I
can't get it back, so I'm starting from scratch. It
was over years work, but quickly I was put into
perspective because a dear friend of mine happened to be
in the hospital that day, so here I am, oh,
my god, that's my poor channel. But then I had
(27:45):
a friend in the hospital, so I'm like, you know what,
that'll snap you back real quick.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
So that's all yeah, but you know, yeah, yeah, that's right.
And you know, I almost did exactly the same thing
with when I was up about ten thousand subscribers. I
almost did that because something in YouTube said to start
a business channel instead of you know, like a merge
or something, and I almost did that. I came so
(28:11):
close to clicking it, and that would have been I know,
that would have been a tough recovery because it takes
so long to get traction. But I hope some people
that are listening and watching, will click on your you know,
to subscribe to your YouTube channel and we'll get more
people on there and rolling again. So but anyway, sure thing,
(28:33):
so there is there was a question here, and I
just want to put them up. Anyone that wants to
ask any questions, you're welcome to this is it's not
really a question, it's a statement. But Minneopolis always is
a very very good researcher and has really interesting points
and also ask great questions when she asked questions. The
(28:56):
laser scalpel was invented in nineteen sixty four. Some can
cut as narrowly as fifty microns width of a human hair,
but being such a new tech, only certain entities would
have even had them during Snippy's time. I just thought
that was a pretty interesting comment.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
That's fascinating and something I learned and really study in
the SLV the San Luis Valley, and I thought it
was fascinating and could account for some of the reports
seen out there of like strange lights or orbs or
things like that. But NASA has used that area for
testing of its lunar equipment because of the terrain out
there is very similar to the lunar surface because of
(29:32):
the volcanic rock and things like that, and they still
do that this day. So it's kind of interesting. I
always wondered, like, could Mount Blanca have underground tunneling. I mean,
it's very similar the stories to Mount Mount Shasta and
the Dulce Base area. We all know Norarad's out here
Colora Spring, so I question. I know there's a heavy
like Nikola, Tesla and Oppenheimer and a lot of cia
(29:57):
and things had homes and crestone and out there in
the valleys. So it's it's an interesting area that could
have two things going on. Very similar to the Rocky
Mountain Ranch out in Nolburg County as well. So so
many similarities between the two locations, which I was not expecting.
I really thought we were just going to open up,
you know, this mysterious death of this horse, but it
(30:18):
turned out to have so much more evidence. They even
worked with Lannie's Amora. There was pictures of Lanni's Amora.
Can you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Those kind of first addressed the laser scalpel back then,
just like computers were the size of a giant kitchen,
for example, the power required to operate a laser scalpel.
You know, it would have been huge and it's not
something you're just gonna have in the middle of nowhere
in the San Luis Valley. And when doctor Alschuler was
interviewed by Linda Howe in the eighties and she said, look,
(30:44):
you've done over hundreds and hundreds of of of dissections
and and and whatnot, and she said, what today compares
to Snippy back then? He said nothing because when I
when I cut into to skin and animal flesh with
modern day equipment, it was very malleable, it was very
(31:04):
pliable with the fingers, but Snippy's was very hard like leather.
And he still can't understand what kind of instrument could
have been used to get that kind of result when
cutting flesh that way.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
You know, when you try to speculate, like, okay, what
is And I've talked to Chris Chris O'Brien. Unfortunately, you know,
we don't have them with us anymore, and very sad.
But when I've talked to Chryst O'Brien about this in
the past, like what would be the purpose of this?
And I'm talking about not just let's just say okay
(31:40):
it was let's just go way out there and say,
all right, it was extraterrestrial and they're doing some type
of weird experiments or whatever. It's still just a weird
thing all the way around, you know, like removed organs,
removed no blood, you know, that's often you know, the
skeptics say the blood settled, and that's why we don't
see blood, you know, settled in the body like it
(32:01):
does with any animal or who or whatever dies. But
but what I'm getting at it makes sure wonder what
the purpose would be h for this type of situation.
Why why are things removed and made to look like
they weren't removed type of situation I see.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Among the books he wrote was one called The Tricksters,
and he said in there that the more absurd the
situation is, the more likely it's something you know, you
just can't explain it. Nobody knows why. And that's that's
that's the absurdity aspect of it. Because there wasn't a
drop of blood anywhere to be found on this horse.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
There are different theories though. One of the theories is
that they take the blood, especially of you know, of
cow and a lot of times these calves. So it's
certain calves and certain ones that are kind of marked
for mutilation. Elk as well. We hear a lot of elk,
but they have high copper in the blood. So there's
a theory that whoever was whatever is interested in the
(33:01):
copper in the blood. If extraterrestrial are absorbing nutrients through
the skin, which we've heard rumors that they could be
using the soft tissue, so again a lot oftentimes it's
an ear and I tongue the genitals, you know, in
the blood, so you know, are they using it for
certain nutrients and certain different minerals in the blood like copper.
(33:22):
That's a theory, but I believe that a good percentage
of this also could be our military. I know Chris
O'Brien and he was going to work with us on
the project. Actually we were in with him. Yeah, and
so one week before we were going to do a
deep dive on this, he passes away, which is so
super sad and we miss cross but yeah, I sure do.
(33:44):
And you know, and luckily you know Linda to uh
you know, because kind of Burrow the lady snippy thing.
But Linda wrote a wonderful letter for the book, and
you know, we talked to her at length on why
the name switched and things like that, So she was
gracious as well, and talking with the experts on animal
mutilations because that's a topic I didn't want to touch
(34:06):
for a long time, because you're right, Martin, like, why
would they do this? But Chris actually still if you
go to his website, there is a map of really
hot spots for animal deaths and a lot of times
there's nuclear storage facilities nearby and military basis. So are
some of these done by us? Because we know there's
all these blacked out helicopters and mysterious copters as well,
(34:29):
and you know, are they testing groundwater? Are they looking
for matt cow disease and such? But there's a percentage
just even going out when we went out and interviewed
Tom and Sally Miller in Trinidad, there's just some that
are just so unusual. And even with snippey, can you
talk about the map? There was a first of all,
there was the original calendar page in the archives and
anybody can go visit the archives and real Rancho, New Mexico,
(34:52):
And I really encourage you guys to go do that
if you have over again. Yeah, but yet so that's
a close up of Snippy, which is interesting. So this
original map is there and it's big in person, it's
pretty big. But this was drawn hand drawn kind of
the crime scene. And this is where you can see
the coyote droppings and there was no prints going to Snippy.
(35:14):
But if you zoom into that little blow up I have,
you can see that they drew Snippy's apple looosa spots
as well as the broken leg. And do you want
to talk about that, Tony, how the animals were corralled.
So there's another map there that shows how Lady Sheiba
and Snippy their tracks were running when this event occurred.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
So we believe that they were asleep at the east
end of the pasture and it kind of opens up
like in a triangular pattern, and we learned that there
you go on the left hand side, there is where
they started, and as you can see, they were kind
of turned to the left and they went to the north,
and to the north is where the sand dunes are located.
Then they quickly turned back down to the south and
you just can going back and forth, back and forth
(35:55):
until the three sets of hoof prints become two sets
of hoof prints and We also learned when we visited
there and spoke to some family members and whatnot, that
the horses ran through the roughest part of Chico brushes,
which they wouldn't do unless they were scared to death
of something, because those Chico bushes will pop a tire
on your car, and we were warned not to drive
over any of them. So for horses to just kind
(36:17):
of run their bodies through those Chico brushes in a
panic that were like two to three and maybe even
four feet tall really says.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Something, right.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
And where the milling and circles you see there are
princes where Snippy was turning in the circles, and then.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Snippy's turning in the circles, the other two run back
to the ranches.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And then what's interesting, it's almost like something was chasing them.
Just a couple of couple of questions, Devil's advocate here,
you mentioned one of you mentioned, maybe both of you,
that there was it was raining, so couldn't that wash
away the blood?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
It was raining up until the event, on and off,
and then during the event, we think there had to
be some sprinkle of rain to create those rains of
It's very light, but What's important is that there was
no evidence of any human footprint tire track other than
Harry King's truck, which is why some of the skeptics
and the Conic Committee were trying to say that he
was the one doing all this, which is impossible. It's
(37:13):
like nobody just has a fifty five gallon bat of
assid just sitting around with a makeshift tripod with no
evidence left behind the tripod marks or even the barrel
for what they were putting in the newspapers and what.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, ridiculous. So I'd like to go before I mean,
we were I don't want to go through this whole
show without talking about the ranch, but I'd like to
go through some of the people in the chat. They
posted some good questions and let's just pop them up
and we'll address them here. So here's one here from
Chris wondering if you ever think about the motive and
method specifically odd that with all precisions laser surgery they
(37:50):
don't clean up their sights.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
That's a good question, and I want to get right
back to that because I just thought of something that
no one knows about in this case and the only
other case that comes close to This particular element is
the nineteen fifty two DEAs Verger's case out of Florida
where they had stove pipe cylindrical pressings into the ground
that were about four inches four and a half inches
wide four and a half inches five inches deep, and
(38:13):
there's also burned roots, not the top, but underneath the ground.
The roots were burned in the Snippy case as well
as the Desverger's case. He was a scout master, you know,
who had the hat burn He had some physical effects
and you know he was you know, either he was
taken or something happened to him, and there was police involved,
and he had three of his of his of his troop,
(38:35):
the young kids that were there that went to the
neighbor's house to call the police because he didn't come
back and all this. But that's the only other case.
There might be one other case with burned roots that
I thought that I saw, but I can't find it again.
I have to look. But that's a really interesting element,
is the burned roots. And what was the question again,
I wanted to get back to that.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Okay, hang on just a second. It was about the
why don't they clean up their sights after.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
You're right, right, right.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
So I was thinking that the reason for that is
perhaps it's not necessarily et perhaps maybe some kind of
a robot, robotic type of machine that malfunction. And that's
why we see a lot of the stove pipe. There
was about seven of them in a row. And someone
said there was another case where it looked like some
sort of an orb with pipes coming every at every
(39:20):
part of the top and it just kind of rolled,
you know, like stove pipe legs or something. And I
thought that's interesting and that could be and maybe that's
why Snippy was done so you know, poorly, they made
a mistake, dropped him.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Now what's also interesting, and we have Agnes King's actual
voice being interviewed. Was a Jalen Heinich that was interviewing her.
But she had a sighting of something unusual over the
ranch house the day of Snippy's capture and then a
week later as well, and she described it as very low,
it was silent. She didn't have her glasses, but she
(39:57):
said it was metallic humming humming. It had a hum sound,
and another thing that's reported from many people, Harry King,
Agnes King, Nellie King. They had physical things as well,
as other animals that had and I think I sent
a picture to Martin of strange growth of the hoofs
that was unnatural. Animals that are blinded, humans that are
(40:18):
going blind and like we talked about earlier, Ernest Wellington
along with Nelly, found that strange tool in the Chico brush.
He passes away a week later and talking to his daughter,
she's suspicious that it could have to tie into what
he was exposed to. Now why it didn't affect Nelly,
I do not know, but she yeah, Oh, Nellie's hand
(40:38):
when she touched it was burned and it stayed that
way for about an hour until she got in washed it.
But here's other picture of the strange indentations around that
Chico brush that they cast it. And that sliced Chico
brush is very similar to it was found out at
Lonnie's Moore of the Secoro case as well. They almost
(40:59):
look at they took castings of that and compared it
to the Succoro case. But you know, here's the guy
that knows, Oh, you got to talk about this.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
So this little footprint here, it's a bit of a
misnumber because on the actual photographs. And then we showed
the actual original source material from the archives in the book.
But it's not that big of a print because I
have a photograph of Don Richmond's feet right in front
of it, and these prints are relatively small, and there's
only two of them. They just pressed into the ground.
They didn't we don't know where they came from. We
don't know where they went. They just were right there
(41:30):
and that was it.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, only two. I mean, they could be bear there.
They don't look like sasquatch or bigfoot, but there are
reports of cryptids in the area. But it's just strange
that there's only two two, just two in the area.
So that's kind of a weird thing. And it's funny
too when the recordings are like, oh, we don't want
this to get out to the press, so they really
kept that secret, along with some other things as well.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
So boy, that's that's really something. I mean, Uh, there's
just so much more to this case than I ever realized. Fascinating.
I'm having a good time here. So here's another question here.
Have you ever had a chance to consult with Colem
color her regarding the mutations?
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Now we have not. In fact, there's a lot of
people we need to talk to about it like Chuck
Lukowski as well, and we just haven't had the time
or the opportunity, but we hope to.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Here's another question here. Maybe it's to study the human
effects on the environment and wildlife, like seeing humans make
a mess and trying to figure out what kind of
harm we're doing. Interesting thought. Let's see if we have
any other questions here. Looks like that's it for the questions,
and I think we should probably dive into the ranch.
(42:48):
Just I don't know how much you know about that, Tony,
but boy, you've really given a lot to this and
I really appreciate everything.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
A branch. I studied the word about a fifty thousand
times now helping her.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Okay, so yeah, okay, But anyway, Tony, I just want
to say I'm really glad that you came on the show.
It's always great having you as a guest. And yeah,
you're right on target with all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
It's great that we were in a raised atticts so
to speak, sweating.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, are so for the person that's not aware. I
know you were on my show, you were on the
Everything Else show that I do on occasion, and you
talked about the ranch. But there's a lot of people,
perhaps not a lot of people, but there are some
people that are unaware of anything to do with this ranch.
If you could talk about that, Katie, why don't you
(43:38):
set the stage for you grew up there, right, or
you grew up going there?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, I grew up going there. Thank goodness, I didn't
live there full time because I believe if I lived
there full time, I wouldn't be talking about it today
or investigating it. But in a nutshell, my mother worked
for United Airlines at the Denver Tech Center. She was
a computer operator. Started dating a gentleman in nineteen seventy
three nineteen seventy four who bought a ranch out in
(44:06):
Albert County, Colorado, in a small town called Kaiwa, and
a lot of things happened there over a three year period.
This is where Linda Moulton how got her start as
an investigated journalist because so many animal mutilations were occurring
at the time. So my mom's boyfriend had three sons.
The two younger sons lived with us during the week
to go to the Cherry Creek School District, which is
(44:26):
a large school district out here in Colorado, and so
we would drive the boys back and forth on the weekends,
or spend time there on the weekends and things like that.
We were threatened to more never to talk about the
things that happened out there, and we never knew anybody
knew anything about it at all. And so my mom,
my sister, and I, you know, just kind of carried
this with us for decades. And you know, fast forward,
(44:49):
after I raised my kids, I started questioning, like, what
was all that during that time? So I joined moufon,
started investigating UFOs and I'd come across this book right here,
and I called Kelly her. They wrote a book for
the Skinwalker before Skinwalker Ranch was a show or anything
like that. And I just read the back, going, wow,
this sounds a lot like my childhood at the Ranch.
(45:10):
So I bought the book and there's a chapter called
other Hotspots, and I started reading about the ranch in Colorado,
and I knew it had to be the ranch because
of the weird family dynamics. You know, the guy my
mom was dating never did divorce his wife, and she
was dating somebody. It was a seventies, what can I say.
It was just a weird time. But I learned in
(45:33):
this book that they had three PhDs that investigated it,
doctor Leo Sprinkle, PhD, which also did the Snippy case,
so that's kind of interesting, and Peter Van Rsdale, PhD.
In John dur a seismologist, along with others. So ever,
since I learned about that, and being that the Heritage
Center and Laramie was so close to me, just a
two and a half hour drive, I quickly went to
(45:54):
the archives and was pulling everything I could about the
ranch from my childhood. And John Schusler, who's one of
the founding fathers of moved On, when he learned of
my connection, gave me the original report. So, you know,
so for me and my sister and my mom, who's
just recently passed away, it was just an amazing revelation
(46:19):
that anybody investigated it at all. So it's just been
really interesting. And then of course Beyond Skinwalker got wind
of the ranch and they've been doing testing out there too,
which has been fantastic and has opened a lot of
doors for me to do continued and Tony two, we
go out there and try to replicate what they did
on Beyond Skinwalker. Yeah, we had another drove with our drone, so.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Oh well, let's hear it said, well, first of all,
if you could explain before you go into what you
know more recently, but can you explain some of the
things that you experienced as a child there.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Yeah, I mentioned, you know, my sister and I flipping
the frisbee out there and seeing that large, you know,
snowless dress. That's one unusual thing that both of us
really remember. Strangely enough, I had a strange box encounter
on my own, and then when they brought my sister
up for season three and beyond, they didn't put any
of the box stuff and beyond Skinwalker it just doesn't
follow the the storyline for Skinwalker Ranch. But they did
(47:18):
record it all and my sister too had a box
encounter out there, along with many other adults. But what's
interesting about the box eyewitnessed and others at the Rocky
Mountain Ranch witnessed These were like lit illuminated from within.
They made like a b sound, like if you've ever
stood under a power line or something. And they were
not as big, not like Trey Hutson. These were like
(47:40):
bigger than a shoe box, maybe eighteen twenty inches long,
maybe eight ten feet sure, right, Yeah, and Sheriff Wall
Bill Wall, the under sheriff at the time, and I
flew to Florida and interviewed his son Keith and his
widow Jean, who recently passed away, and she was a
wonderful woman. But Sheriff Wall had an account or with
(48:00):
one of these boxes as well. He was out on patrol,
sees a light in a box where it shouldn't be,
didn't want to approach it. He goes back, it's a posse,
sheriff and as they approached the box, he said, it
was as if the box and the tree went into
the ground. So that occurred, Yeah, crypticiding. He bought hum sounds.
(48:23):
That was the first thing. Yeah, even in San Luis Valley,
a these strange like the Taus hum and I can
still I mean, it's very vivid in my mind. So
a lot of these strange hums and bangs underground. The
scariest night for me though, which they try to replicate
and beyond Skinwalker, I believe the first season was that
(48:43):
scary night. It was the boys' mom's birthday. We were
all hanging out at the ranch house on the weekend.
The adults are in the front room, me and my
sister and the three boys were hanging out in the
back room and that hum sound comes up, and all
of a sudden, this bright light out of the window,
brighter than any light I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
That we're all.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Freaking out, the powers out in the house, the hum
sounds going on, and at that point it was like
from every orifice in the house. And the reason I
can say it verbatim is because it's in the Apple report.
But it basically told us. It said, attention, we have
allowed you to remain We have interfered with your lives
very little. Do not cause us to take action which
(49:22):
you will regret. Your friends will be instructed remaining silent
concerning us. And that was a terrifying night. I ended
up getting a full blown migraine, had like it was paralyzed,
couldn't speak for a while that night, and on and
on and on. So that was my scariest night, and
my sisters and my family scariest out there. And you know,
as the investigator in me now I learned is something
(49:43):
called plasma ball technology, because we do know there was
a military connection out there. John who owned the ranch,
claimed to be Air Defense Command talked about taking legal
LSD you know, and interviewing.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Other people before that happened. John Duke Learn and he
had these books on Native American lore and he set
up an experiment with silver Native American silver and he
put up these two rods in the ground. He put
silver in between him and wire, and that's what it disappeared. Yeah,
and that's when that phenomena happened. What happened with your silver?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (50:14):
And yeah, So my favorite bracelet that I had is
a Celtic silver bracelet. When I was filming Season one,
it vanished on the ranch. You could see it when
we're launching the rockets and the next thing, you know,
that silver bracelet's gone. And I have worn that for years, years,
like three years. And yeah, I got out the metal detector.
So the whole time, the rest of the week during filming,
I'm out there trying to search my bracelet. It was gone.
So that was weird. But so many different things out there,
(50:37):
And I know there was a military presence out there.
I know, you know that possible black access projects happening
out there. We have documents in the files talking about
a soldier from Fort Carson visits the ranch. His name
was Warren. His last name's redacted out. He said he
felt something take over his mind made him walk towards
(50:58):
the woods behind the ranch house would release him. He
would run back to the ranch house and this did
this to him five times. Now, it's really fascinating, Martin,
and I think I have it here somewhere. But just
recently we had a guest on talking about the Gateway
program right so, oh, it's right here, right here, And
so I started listening to the Gateway tapes. And right during,
(51:21):
right after that strange experience I had on the ranch
with this disembodied electronic sounding voice, and I had my
full pull blown migraine headache, my mom gets approached at
her work in the Denver Tech Center with this newspaper
article asking me to be put into this program called
the Biofeedback program, and it's called the Twilight Learners. And
(51:42):
I still have my cassette tapes right here from them.
So for every week for like a year, I'd go
to the Denver Tech Center with Thomas H. Bodinski and
do this Twilight Learning where they keep you in a
theta state and they hook little wires up to your
fingers into your head and they have you you know,
put headphones on, and you basically are learning to relax
(52:03):
your body to get ready of your microing headaches. While
I started doing some research on Thomas H. Bedinski. Turns
out he was a navigational engineer for the SR seventy
one Blackbird out of Area fifty one, and I came
across a video and you can find it on my
YouTube channel where they have a little boy named Kevin
in the same program that I was put in, and
(52:25):
you have Thomas H. Bodinski saying, Okay, Kevin, can you
make the rocket go up? Can you make the rocket land?
And he did the navigation systems out of Area fifty one,
worked with the Manager Foundation, worked with the Stargate program,
the Gateway program, and the place out in Virginia, a
Monroe Institute. So all these people were working on these
(52:48):
programs along with I believe you know, the black Access
projects in MK Ultra. So that was part of the
Rocky Mountain Ranch experience as well. And being in that
program the Twilight Learners has just been kind of of
eye opening and mind blowing to me, because you know,
they want to deny that they worked with children, although
they have a video out there with little Kevin, who
(53:10):
was about the same age as I was when I
was put in the Twilight Learner. So that's new research
that I'm just I got sixty five pages on it
right now, kind of tying all these things together. So
there's no doubt that some of the activity out there
was black access government programs. But in researching the property
and stuff, I wanted to know which came first, the
weird activity or the military. And according to my research,
(53:35):
I think the activity predates some military presence because the
people that the ranch at vacant for ten to twelve years.
So first of all, the military wanted it, why did
they just not purchase it? But secondly, it was known
as the Mulligan Ranch, and so during research on the Mulligans,
there was a gentleman by the name of Dick Mulligan,
and he was born and raised on the ranch property,
(53:57):
the Rocky Mountain Ranch, and he later became the caretaker
for winter Park Ski Resort, and he was known for
bold exaggeration and the gift of gap. And I'm thinking, no,
he wasn't storytelling. He was trying to tell people all
the weird stuff that was happening out there in Olburg. County,
you know, and all that Dick, he has a gift
a gap, so so much to this and the interesting
(54:19):
thing like Tony talks about the parallels to Snippy is
just mind blowing and I had no idea, you know.
So it's been really wait a minute, yeah, that's like
the Rams.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Well, you know, I can't believe the time has gone
by so fast, and i'd like to have you both.
I think we could continue this conversation. I mean, it
seems like it seems like we're scratching the surface in
a way. I don't know if that's how you feel,
but it seems like there's a lot to talk about.
It's been really great for sure. So just throw out Katie,
(54:52):
can you throw out the name of your YouTube channel
if you will.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yes, it's Rocky Mountain Ranch Research with Katie Page.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Okay, that sounds great. So thank you both so much,
and I hope a lot of people buy your book
as well. And please do send me the link. I'll
get that in the show notes as well.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
All right, absolutely, thanks for having us here, Martin.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. So we'll be
back next week with Bill Chalker on The Australian icon
Ufo researcher on Tuesday, and next Thursday we have Tim
Ventura on so thank you both so much. Take care
of you by now
Hello, and welcome to the show. Martin Willashire host. Actually
in the mountains in New Hampshire right now. Next week
I'll be back in Portsmanth, New Hampshire and moving all
around here. So great guests tonight. Tony Angiola, who I've
known for many years, been on the show many times,
and also Katie Page. I think Katie's been on just
(00:46):
once in the past. They're both on together. The focus
of the show is going to be on the mutation
of Snippy the horse, which was actually the first. They
may tell me I'm wrong here, but I think it
was the first type of animal mutilation. I believe it
was October fifth or something like that, nineteen sixty seven.
(01:09):
Maybe off from the date too. I don't have any
of that in front of me. I'm just throwing these
numbers out, but without further ado. Well, just a couple thanks.
First of all, thank you everyone for being here. Thank
you for those who support the show. And we have
hundreds of blogs over at podcast UFO Merchandise all of that,
so PODCASTUFO dot Com and all the informations over there,
(01:34):
and I guess that's enough for now. I'm going to
bring in our guests. Hello, you too.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I you doing, Martin. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Glad to be here with you as well, Katie. Was
great to see you contact in the desert and a
lot of fun out there, wasn't it. I can't wait
for next year.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, it's always a great time out there. So hopefully
we see a lot of you that are watching out
there for the next event.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I know, I couldn't believe the amount of people. It
is amazing the amount. But what fun in the hallways
and everything talking everybody was awesome fun. So Tony, I've
always enjoyed having you on the show many times. I
think you've probably been on five times over the years,
something like that. And now you're a Midwestern guy, you're
out in Colorado. That's awesome, beautiful, beautiful area to live.
(02:22):
Great weather. I'm sure you can appreciate the weather after
being in the on the East coast for all those years.
I think it's great weather out there, was when I
was there. But anyway, so I have to ask you
why Snippy and I have some questions about that. You know,
why Snippy the horse? What made you look at that
(02:44):
situation and do all the research on that?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, that's a great question, Martin. But three years back
I got a call from a gentleman named Carrie King,
and he is the descendant his grant at Nelly owned
Snippy the horse, and he wanted to start some events
and kind of revive Snippy and bring them back. His Snippy,
if for those that don't know, was really the first
(03:08):
world recognized before viral was a thing. Literally the mutilation
is Snippy went viral around the world, newspaper headlines all
over the place. So there were a few mutilations before Snippy,
but this was the one that really put animal death
and strange mutilations on the map. And so got to
know Snippy, and he knew of my work. I'm the
(03:30):
former state director for Colorado moof on, which is the
mutual UFO network, and I've done a lot of work
on the Rocky Mountain ranch of my childhood, which is
featured on Beyond Skinwalker. So he knew of my research
and that I've done there, and he invited me out
to kind of speak at that first Snippy event and
then the second, and now we just had the third,
which the third was the first time it was opened
(03:51):
to the public for tickets. It was a really fun event.
Many great speakers there as well, your friend Mark de
Antonio one of them, their astronomer, and they had doctor
Shaw and Tony and Ben and a lot of other people. Yeah,
it was a good turnout, Doctor Simeon Hine and Eric
Hecker and Nash the yes SEV Talk and the paranormal
(04:13):
Rangers and on and on. So it was a fantastic event.
But so you know, years ago in the eighties, I
think it was the second event out there in the
San Luis Valley. You know, the question of Snippy's name
came up. Is it Lady? Is it Snippy? And the
King family, which, like I said, these are the descendants
from the original owners of the horse, Aunt Nelly and Burle,
(04:34):
and they had a lot of photos that were never
seen before. And so we were learning about these different
horses that were pastured on the King ranch and lo
and behold. Around the same time, David Marler at the
National UFO Historical Record Center gets the original APRO files
back that we're missing for over thirty five years. So
(04:55):
nobody really had access to those files for all those decades.
And I went to visit and you know, selfishly, I
was looking for more documents on the Rocky Mountain ranch.
And turns out Dave comes over and just plops down
just stacks and stacks of documents from the Snippy case,
hundreds of never before seen photographs, and a lot of
(05:19):
auto recordings. So this opened up over six months that
the King family basically had Tony and I reopened the
Snippy case and kind of start wrong, you know, getting
the facts correct. And it kind of really started with
the name of the horse. So, yes, that's Captain back there,
(05:41):
say hi to Captain.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Hey, Captain, good doggie, Good doggie. So yeah, let's just
we talked a little bit before the show and let's
just uh snip this in the bud, so to speak.
But there was some of that said that the horse's
name was not Snippy, it was Lady. So let's just
clear that up right off the bat. And how that
(06:03):
I don't understand why there was a confusion of why
someone tried to change the whole thing. But the horse
is definitely a male, and you know you still have
evidence of that today in the bones right and everything
you want to.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Talk about that sure, I mean that all begin it
all started with Burl Lewis as early as nineteen sixty nine.
First of all, the horse was found September seventh of
nineteen sixty seven. It went missing on September seventh. But
the this is a picture of the bones, the hip bones.
As you can see, the male has kind of like
a triangle upside down triangle. A female would be a
(06:38):
normal triangle for birthing. In fact, Larry mess of the
ufl Watchtower said to his mother Judy that these are
the hips of a male horse, long long ago when
they first acquired the bones, which was amazing. But we
also had this analyze with Ai. With several photographs that
we got directly from the watch tower of the bones,
we were able to verify that the these in fact
(07:00):
were the bones of Snippy because the bullet holes matched up.
We also confirmed it through other books written by Herman
Dodi called Bones in a Box Car, and we took
what clues we could get from his book as well.
But everything points to this being a male gelding horse,
which is a male horse three years castrated, older than
three years old. And it's not a philly, which would
(07:21):
be a female. And it's not a mare which would
be older than four years old. So getting the terminology
correct was important. Making sure that we had the right
bones and the right sex was important as well. But
beyond anything that any mighty knows about this horse, I
outlined seventeen points in the book that Katie also was
(07:42):
tearing a part as we went through all this documentation.
It's not just the surgical incision around the neck that
everyone so used to seeing, but Nelly points out a
lot of our audio that the cuts went all the
way to the bone, and that nobody can make such
a perfect decision, even with a sharp surgical knife, without
causing a jag somewhere. Even more peculiars that the skull
(08:02):
was bone dry within one day, which is crazy because
there were other horses dead for a year out in
the sand dunes that they were able to. There you go,
there's a picture. It's about that. One's about a month old.
That picture there, And.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I want you to point out the rear left hind
leg was also bare like the head and neck.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They didn't mention it too much, but that rear left
hind leg was bare to the bone of flesh, and
the right leg was broken as if it was dropped
from above. And someone once said to us, well, if
you drop a horse from above, it's going to fall
ahead first, that's true, but not if it's missing all
of its meat and flesh and liquids. There's not a
drop of blood anywhere, And what you see on the
(08:42):
ground there is not blood. People mistake that for blood.
And to this day we're not quite sure what that
stain is.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
It's like a black tar. But let's get back to
the horse's name. There's a picture there that was very
important along with documents, and it's the only two known
photographs of Snippy a lot ever. And when I first founidly,
I was on the phone right away with the king family. So,
and what's cool about a lot of the most of
the photos that were in the APO documents is they
(09:10):
all had writing on the backs of the photos or
had documentation to go along with them. So as you
can see, this particular photo is dated July twenty eighth,
nineteen sixty nine. It says, here is an eight x
ten color photo I had printed up from a negative
that Nellie Lewis had taken a Snippy as a cult
and lady her mother. This is the only known photograph
of Snippy as a cult. So and there's another one
(09:33):
with Lady and Snippy and Burle. I don't know if
I sent that one to you, but there is late mother,
Lady and Snippy as a cult.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Two separate horses.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, two separate horses. And then the document that I
just sent you. Okay, well yeah, hold on.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I'm bocessing around just because I was trying to find it.
But here's a document. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, this is an important document. This is part of
five pages. And this was so cool to find because
it really speaks to how Snippy came to be. Snippy
was a birthday gift given to Nelly Lewis on November fourteenth,
nineteen sixty four. Born in October nineteen sixty four, and
he was one day old when Nelly first saw him.
He was a beautiful little colt. So it goes into
(10:17):
the Snippy's father, Snippy's mother, and what a lot of
people don't know. There were four horses that were pastured
on the King ranch. There was a black horse by
the name of Smokey, and was fascinating is Smoky died
the week before Snippy of what they believed was a
rattle snake bite to the back hip because there was
(10:39):
a little swelling, but a horse, that's what fourteen hands high.
He was a big horse. A rattlesnake bite to the
hip typically will not cause the death of an animal
that large unless it gets it on its snouter nose.
That there is Agnes king with Sheba, so Sheba was
the other horse. You can see that Sheba has no
(11:01):
white markings on her leg. That's Smoky there that died
the week before Snippy, and that left the dapple gray
horse which was Lady Snippy's mother, and then Snippy, the
three year old cult They all had very distinguishing marks.
Snippy actually even had some apple loosa markings. There were
some more photos. This is Sheba and lady mother of Snippy.
(11:25):
Another thing what we learned is that Snippy was never ridden,
so Snippy was only taught to holton lead and was
set to be saddled the week after his mutilation.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Wow, hey, I have a question for you, Tony. Did
I just hear you say a couple of minutes ago
the bullet holes matched up? Did you say that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
In fact, those the bullet holes was a big contention
for a lot of the naysayers, especially from the Conon Committee,
because they wanted to say this horse died of a
really bad infection. In fact, when the horse was found
there was no bullet holes or anything on its hip.
That happened one month after by two teenage boys using
a twenty two caliber pistol at point in blank range,
(12:07):
which actually shattered the hip, and they agreed to sign
an affidavit. They had their guns taken away from them
put in a trunk, and they were really nervous, and
Nelly said, I'm not going to press any charges. As
far as I know, there's no law against shooting a
dead horse. And so that's that's the whole story with
with those those bullet holes.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And that story was on the audio recordings. So there
was hours and hours and hours of audio recordings that
were in the A profiles, all of which until Jalen
Heinik later kind of dubbed over in the late eighties
that know, this was the mayor lady after the disinformation
was put out there. But they all refer to a
hymn and that was always the male was always the
(12:48):
male was always nippy. And in fact, Ernest Wellington, who
was the neighbor of the King Ranch, they're very close together.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
The dead Cow Ranch.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, they called it the Dead Cow Ranch because they
had so many animal deaths right there at the Wellington Ranch.
And Ernest Wellington is the gentleman who was with Nelly
when she found this strange tool and the Chico brush,
and we'll get to that in here in a little
bit around the body of Snippy. But Ernest Wellington's daughter
who now lives in Australia, her name is Leona. She
(13:19):
heard of the book that came out and all the
new research and the photographs we were sharing with her,
and she actually wrote a review on Amazon. You can
go read it. But she's like, you guys, absolutely, I
was there, it was Snippy. It was a three year
old guilding. So just you know, so many you know,
things like that. But one of the pictures I love,
Martin that you have is in those documents. It states
(13:42):
that Lady and Sheba and Snippy were really friendly horses
and they would come and take sugar cubes out of
your hand and all this, and then after Snippy's mutilation,
Sheiba and Lady got so skittish if they heard the
like the click of the old cameras, they would free out.
They were not happy horses. Anymore, and they were very skittish.
(14:04):
And there's pictures of that. One of my favorite pictures.
It's a series of what four or five I think,
where they're trying to get pictures of Lady and Sheba
right after Snippy's mutilation. And you can see the distress
in these horses and in the in the captions underneath.
If you can find that picture, we can bring it up.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Okay, I have a question here for us. If it's
okay if I post, some people are going to be,
you know, posing questions in chat. So what were the
cuts like? Like one of the I think it's saying
on the bone are flaking or through the bone, any
cracks are flaking that would indicate a blade or a knife.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
That's a good question. No, there were no indications that
this was done with a knife or any type of
metal instrument. Because doctor Altschuler, who was quick story. Doctor
Altschuler was always interested in these types of stories. He
was working as a pathology in Denver and just got
the job. He was married with three kids, and he
brought his wife and kids out under the precipice of
(15:07):
taking a little vacation, not knowing that he was going
to disappear for the whole weekend. He went to the
sand dunes overnight soft some UFOs spend the night there,
got captured by the park police who said, look, we
won't press charges if you come with us and analyze
this horse because his horse died in some strange ways
and you're pathologists, can you help us out. So he
was the one who cut into the horse and found
(15:29):
that the laser incision of the horse at a microscopic
level was evident of an extreme molecular heat, and the
laser custom to the bone in a very precise manner
with no blood, and all the organs were removed without
a drop of blood. The brain cavity and inside the neck.
There was no fluid inside the spinal neck or the
neck cavity, which is really unusual too, as if everything
(15:51):
was just dried out from the inside. The heart was missing,
the lungs, all organs were missing, and he was perplexing,
how do you remove a heart without a drop of blood?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So another every yeah, that's really interesting. Another question is,
because I don't know the answer, how long was the
horse supposedly dead for? When's the last time someone saw
the horse alive?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Right?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So on the fourth time when they actually found the horse.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Just a couple of days before the ninth there on
September seventh, he failed to show up for feet or water.
And so Agnes who was Colely King's wife who lived
on the farm there. They're the ones they were pastoring
taking care of the horses, as Burl and Nelly, who
owned the horses, lived in Alamosa for Burl's business, and
they also spent time at the cabin which was about
(16:38):
four miles north of the ranch. So Agnes said to
Harry King, actually because Cold already passed away in sixty one,
Harry King was her son who was taking care of
the ranch and whatnot, she said, I need to go
find that horse tomorrow. And he didn't have time until
the ninth, So that was a Saturday, and he actually
got stuck in the mud. It took him an hour
to find the horse.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
It had been raining a little bit off and on
those few days, which is important. It's important because in
one of the chapters we go through all the hoax
theories or other possible you know, was it lightning. Ben
Phillips was the sheriff out there, and there's audio recordings
of an interview with him is pretty interesting. But you know,
he blamed it on lightning, and clearly that was ruled
(17:20):
out for many different reasons. But also there was this
crazy theory that somebody had gone up and put up
a tripod and put out a big vat of acid
and a container and Hongkoor snippy up and dipped them
in the acid. Which you know, there was no truck marks,
there are no footprints, there were no anything around the carcass,
(17:41):
radiation readings for a high nothing would touch it. In fact,
later when the coyotes and the maggots finally did touch
the carcass, they died of dysentery. So there's so much
to this case. It's just incredible. But yeah, what.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
About what about the circular exit marks and exhaust marks
and squash bushes nearby? Is that also? Is that documented
as true?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, there were as many. There were over fifteen burn marks.
And what's interesting is the government and this is why
Nelly never buried the horse and gave it to doctor Leary,
who's the one who assembled the bones after boiling all
the meat off and all this is because the government
said those burnmarks never existed. And then we had the
conicoman try to say that the burn marks were just
allergy or some some sort of you know, bacteria growing
(18:30):
on the ground. So she said they were there. They
photographed it as best they could, but if she had
buried the horse, they would have said that the horse
never existed either. What's really peculiar. And we found an
interesting witness by the name of the Green News Ernest
No No, the other guy, Joe Spencer. Joe Spencer, he's
(18:54):
the one who told us, hey, did you guys find
out about the green ooze? And at the time we
didn't know about the Green News. We had to go
back to the archives and started digging through the files
again until we found this green ooze. And it turns
out that there was what they call a tool and
it was described as looking like a chicken gizzard and
it was found inside one of the bushes, and there
were puddles all around the horse looked like any freeze.
(19:15):
This green ooze. Now, Joe Spencer said, not only was
the puddles of the ooze green oose, but it looked
like green butter stick.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And they had collected the sample with like uh, you know,
and they took it the conduct committee right, took it
to be tested. They took the tough, the tool tough.
They took some of that green or the hide hair,
they took some of the tar like substance around the head.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Tell us about the colors.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, so when they found Snippy, the head and neck
were like bleach white, like it had been laying there
four years in the sun. A week later they turned
a bright pink color, and a week later they go black.
Very unusual.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Wow, that is that's the whole thing is so. And
there's also I can't forget during this talk, at some point, Katie,
I had told people that you're going to talk about
the ranch also. But there was also somewhere along the line.
I know that Linda Molhaw good involved in this, but
(20:21):
wasn't there some talk about UFOs and being involved or
that was what some of the headlines said at one time, right,
like a UFO kills Snippy the horse or something like that.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
One of the reasons they may have said that was
because there were three fence posts on the north side
of the gate that were sheared off like a lightsaber
went right through them, and they measured the distance between them.
They said that the disc would have to have been
flat about sixty feet in diameter, or perhaps even seventy
five foot, as the ground indentations showed. So amongst all
this other evidence, we find out there was a seventy
(20:53):
five foot circle pressed into the ground and five fifteen
foot circles surrounding that. And what's even more peculiar, and
the reason that we know that these were circles is
because when they were pressing to the ground, it pressed
the sound completely flat and then starts raining. And there
were raindets all around these circles except for where these
discs were pressing down. They pressed down on these Chico
(21:14):
bushes that were three to four feet tall some of them,
and where there were and Chico bushes, it was just
a pressed down, perfect circle of sand.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, a lot like this core case. And it's important
he mentions that seventy five foot in diameter circle because
you mentioned me talking and bringing in the Rocky Mountain
Ranch case. So in nineteen sixty six, a year prior
to prior to Snippy's mutilation, there were several reports of
UFOs and orbs and things ships flying in and out
of Mount Blanco, which is really where Snippy was found,
(21:45):
was at the base of Mount Blanca right there in
the valley. So a lot of reports out there of
strange craft prior to Snippy's mutilation. But that seventy five
foot in diameter circle, Now, that event that my sister
and I had where we're flipping the frisbee and we
looked down and there's that dry circle, perfect circle on
(22:06):
the ground at Rocky Mountain Ranch where nothing grew but
outside it was like wet, heavy snow. That's in the
Appera reports as well. That was also seventy five feet
in diameter. And on UAP Studies podcast, which I'm a
co host on, we had a PhD who did his
dissertation on the uap UFO phenomena and his name is
(22:26):
doctor Pearson, and one of the findings for these dish
shaped craft was in fact the seventy five foot in
diameter circles that are left. And there was just recently
one that was featured on episode one of what's his
name The Alien, Yeah, George Knapp Show, Investigation Alien. And
(22:49):
this rancher out there in Oregon had one of these
circles on his property as well that measured in that
same diameter. So that's very important and there were so
many similarities to the Snippy as to activity out in
the San Luis Valley, and this is why you know,
Tony remembers a lot of these outlier stories. But they
even had a box encounter, these strange boxes that are seen.
(23:10):
Do you want to tell about this kind of box
encounter they had out there in the.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Smar two katies at year ten, she sees this black
box that's levitating off the ground and Burl and Nelly
spotted a very similar box flying through the sky in
this one particular night when they were driving home. There's
missing time events between Leo Sprinkle and some of the
other investigators from Nightcap and APRO, which for the first
(23:33):
time ever and the only time ever came together and
they call it the sort Team or the Space Object
Research Team. So he had a combination of APRO with Richmond,
Don and Alice Richmond, NICAP with Ken Steinmanz and his team.
And it was really interesting because Bill mcfrederie is an
al Ed Boggs who photographed these strange balls of light
which got into the newspaper, grabbing the attention of Don
(23:56):
Richmond and Alice Richmond. Is how they all came together
and they would have these other investigations throughout this the book,
in fact, where they had experienced missing time, black boxes,
boxes on the ground, you know, just all kind of their.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Normal the hitchhiker stuff. And that's what fascinated me too, Martin,
was you know this was you have to remember, this
was really the first recognized or known animal death. And
Nelly and Agnes and others that are we have the
recordings of these people talking about the ConA silence, no blood,
animals not approaching, all the telltale signs of these animal
(24:31):
mutilations that we know well today, they didn't know that then.
And you can just check check check down the list
that they were experiencing all these things back.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Then, right Tony, When you were saying black box like
levitated off the ground, are you talking about, say, a
rectangular shape box, a cube shape box? What do you do?
You know the exact type of box that was recorded.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
What was described by Burrell was as a cube type
of a box. And at first we couldn't quite tell
what he meant by the dimensions. When he first saw
it flying through the sky is when they first saw it.
They got back into the truck and they rushed home
and they had experience and missing time about two and
a half hours. When he used the field glasses or
the binoculars, they called them field glasses, he said he
could see a box on the ground at a distance
(25:18):
on the road and then it was something to the
effect of about maybe twenty five feet high, nine feet
deep and maybe six feet wide. And that triggered my
memory because it reminded me of Trey Hudson in the
Meadows Project where they actually and then well Carl Higdin too,
and Carl Higgin, as you recall, also one where the
alien he encountered had him come into this box where
(25:39):
he said was bigger on the inside than it appeared
in the outside, kind of like.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
You hear those yeah, you hear those things, which sounds
absolutely crazy, but so many people have talked about, you know,
the interior being huge, you know. And then I always
wonder about, you know, Travis Walton's situation. That was so
weird what he talks about when he steps out of
like the craft and like a hangar or something, and
it's just huge, and you know, I don't know mothership,
(26:07):
I don't know what that is. But by the way,
Travis is going to be on in a couple of weeks,
and I'm also going out to Sedona for the event
out there really really quickly. I want to talk about
this Katie. Oh you're going to be there too? Are
you going to be there?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
No, I'm just aversizing, thank.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
You, yes, sk Skyfire Summit. So I just want to say,
I'm going to give you a little bit of a plug, Katie,
because I know you. You were so upset what happened
to You didn't come on my show, you had to
cancel just to recuperate. But your YouTube channel went down
and crashed and burned and everything, and now you're trying
(26:47):
to get it going again. So I'm going to put
the YouTube channel and I want to ask all the
people listening today if you'd support Katie by clicking a subscribe,
you know, become a subscriber to the channel, if you would,
And that'll be down in the texts and.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Talk about that saying. But I was very quickly put
back into my place perspective, because here I am heartbroken.
What happened was I had two channels that were attached
to my one email, and I went to delete the
one with only three subscribers and one video. The other
one had almost thirteen hundred subscriber and I was really
close to being able to monetize, and up popped the box.
(27:24):
You're deleting the one with three subscribers and one video.
I'm like, okay, delete, And then I went and it
was gone. And since it wasn't a branded channel, I
can't get it back, so I'm starting from scratch. It
was over years work, but quickly I was put into
perspective because a dear friend of mine happened to be
in the hospital that day, so here I am, oh,
my god, that's my poor channel. But then I had
(27:45):
a friend in the hospital, so I'm like, you know what,
that'll snap you back real quick.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
So that's all yeah, but you know, yeah, yeah, that's right.
And you know, I almost did exactly the same thing
with when I was up about ten thousand subscribers. I
almost did that because something in YouTube said to start
a business channel instead of you know, like a merge
or something, and I almost did that. I came so
(28:11):
close to clicking it, and that would have been I know,
that would have been a tough recovery because it takes
so long to get traction. But I hope some people
that are listening and watching, will click on your you know,
to subscribe to your YouTube channel and we'll get more
people on there and rolling again. So but anyway, sure thing,
(28:33):
so there is there was a question here, and I
just want to put them up. Anyone that wants to
ask any questions, you're welcome to this is it's not
really a question, it's a statement. But Minneopolis always is
a very very good researcher and has really interesting points
and also ask great questions when she asked questions. The
(28:56):
laser scalpel was invented in nineteen sixty four. Some can
cut as narrowly as fifty microns width of a human hair,
but being such a new tech, only certain entities would
have even had them during Snippy's time. I just thought
that was a pretty interesting comment.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
That's fascinating and something I learned and really study in
the SLV the San Luis Valley, and I thought it
was fascinating and could account for some of the reports
seen out there of like strange lights or orbs or
things like that. But NASA has used that area for
testing of its lunar equipment because of the terrain out
there is very similar to the lunar surface because of
(29:32):
the volcanic rock and things like that, and they still
do that this day. So it's kind of interesting. I
always wondered, like, could Mount Blanca have underground tunneling. I mean,
it's very similar the stories to Mount Mount Shasta and
the Dulce Base area. We all know Norarad's out here
Colora Spring, so I question. I know there's a heavy
like Nikola, Tesla and Oppenheimer and a lot of cia
(29:57):
and things had homes and crestone and out there in
the valleys. So it's it's an interesting area that could
have two things going on. Very similar to the Rocky
Mountain Ranch out in Nolburg County as well. So so
many similarities between the two locations, which I was not expecting.
I really thought we were just going to open up,
you know, this mysterious death of this horse, but it
(30:18):
turned out to have so much more evidence. They even
worked with Lannie's Amora. There was pictures of Lanni's Amora.
Can you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Those kind of first addressed the laser scalpel back then,
just like computers were the size of a giant kitchen,
for example, the power required to operate a laser scalpel.
You know, it would have been huge and it's not
something you're just gonna have in the middle of nowhere
in the San Luis Valley. And when doctor Alschuler was
interviewed by Linda Howe in the eighties and she said, look,
(30:44):
you've done over hundreds and hundreds of of of dissections
and and and whatnot, and she said, what today compares
to Snippy back then? He said nothing because when I
when I cut into to skin and animal flesh with
modern day equipment, it was very malleable, it was very
(31:04):
pliable with the fingers, but Snippy's was very hard like leather.
And he still can't understand what kind of instrument could
have been used to get that kind of result when
cutting flesh that way.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
You know, when you try to speculate, like, okay, what
is And I've talked to Chris Chris O'Brien. Unfortunately, you know,
we don't have them with us anymore, and very sad.
But when I've talked to Chryst O'Brien about this in
the past, like what would be the purpose of this?
And I'm talking about not just let's just say okay
(31:40):
it was let's just go way out there and say,
all right, it was extraterrestrial and they're doing some type
of weird experiments or whatever. It's still just a weird
thing all the way around, you know, like removed organs,
removed no blood, you know, that's often you know, the
skeptics say the blood settled, and that's why we don't
see blood, you know, settled in the body like it
(32:01):
does with any animal or who or whatever dies. But
but what I'm getting at it makes sure wonder what
the purpose would be h for this type of situation.
Why why are things removed and made to look like
they weren't removed type of situation I see.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Among the books he wrote was one called The Tricksters,
and he said in there that the more absurd the
situation is, the more likely it's something you know, you
just can't explain it. Nobody knows why. And that's that's
that's the absurdity aspect of it. Because there wasn't a
drop of blood anywhere to be found on this horse.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
There are different theories though. One of the theories is
that they take the blood, especially of you know, of
cow and a lot of times these calves. So it's
certain calves and certain ones that are kind of marked
for mutilation. Elk as well. We hear a lot of elk,
but they have high copper in the blood. So there's
a theory that whoever was whatever is interested in the
(33:01):
copper in the blood. If extraterrestrial are absorbing nutrients through
the skin, which we've heard rumors that they could be
using the soft tissue, so again a lot oftentimes it's
an ear and I tongue the genitals, you know, in
the blood, so you know, are they using it for
certain nutrients and certain different minerals in the blood like copper.
(33:22):
That's a theory, but I believe that a good percentage
of this also could be our military. I know Chris
O'Brien and he was going to work with us on
the project. Actually we were in with him. Yeah, and
so one week before we were going to do a
deep dive on this, he passes away, which is so
super sad and we miss cross but yeah, I sure do.
(33:44):
And you know, and luckily you know Linda to uh
you know, because kind of Burrow the lady snippy thing.
But Linda wrote a wonderful letter for the book, and
you know, we talked to her at length on why
the name switched and things like that, So she was
gracious as well, and talking with the experts on animal
mutilations because that's a topic I didn't want to touch
(34:06):
for a long time, because you're right, Martin, like, why
would they do this? But Chris actually still if you
go to his website, there is a map of really
hot spots for animal deaths and a lot of times
there's nuclear storage facilities nearby and military basis. So are
some of these done by us? Because we know there's
all these blacked out helicopters and mysterious copters as well,
(34:29):
and you know, are they testing groundwater? Are they looking
for matt cow disease and such? But there's a percentage
just even going out when we went out and interviewed
Tom and Sally Miller in Trinidad, there's just some that
are just so unusual. And even with snippey, can you
talk about the map? There was a first of all,
there was the original calendar page in the archives and
anybody can go visit the archives and real Rancho, New Mexico,
(34:52):
And I really encourage you guys to go do that
if you have over again. Yeah, but yet so that's
a close up of Snippy, which is interesting. So this
original map is there and it's big in person, it's
pretty big. But this was drawn hand drawn kind of
the crime scene. And this is where you can see
the coyote droppings and there was no prints going to Snippy.
(35:14):
But if you zoom into that little blow up I have,
you can see that they drew Snippy's apple looosa spots
as well as the broken leg. And do you want
to talk about that, Tony, how the animals were corralled.
So there's another map there that shows how Lady Sheiba
and Snippy their tracks were running when this event occurred.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
So we believe that they were asleep at the east
end of the pasture and it kind of opens up
like in a triangular pattern, and we learned that there
you go on the left hand side, there is where
they started, and as you can see, they were kind
of turned to the left and they went to the north,
and to the north is where the sand dunes are located.
Then they quickly turned back down to the south and
you just can going back and forth, back and forth
(35:55):
until the three sets of hoof prints become two sets
of hoof prints and We also learned when we visited
there and spoke to some family members and whatnot, that
the horses ran through the roughest part of Chico brushes,
which they wouldn't do unless they were scared to death
of something, because those Chico bushes will pop a tire
on your car, and we were warned not to drive
over any of them. So for horses to just kind
(36:17):
of run their bodies through those Chico brushes in a
panic that were like two to three and maybe even
four feet tall really says.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Something, right.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
And where the milling and circles you see there are
princes where Snippy was turning in the circles, and then.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Snippy's turning in the circles, the other two run back
to the ranches.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And then what's interesting, it's almost like something was chasing them.
Just a couple of couple of questions, Devil's advocate here,
you mentioned one of you mentioned, maybe both of you,
that there was it was raining, so couldn't that wash
away the blood?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
It was raining up until the event, on and off,
and then during the event, we think there had to
be some sprinkle of rain to create those rains of
It's very light, but What's important is that there was
no evidence of any human footprint tire track other than
Harry King's truck, which is why some of the skeptics
and the Conic Committee were trying to say that he
was the one doing all this, which is impossible. It's
(37:13):
like nobody just has a fifty five gallon bat of
assid just sitting around with a makeshift tripod with no
evidence left behind the tripod marks or even the barrel
for what they were putting in the newspapers and what.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, ridiculous. So I'd like to go before I mean,
we were I don't want to go through this whole
show without talking about the ranch, but I'd like to
go through some of the people in the chat. They
posted some good questions and let's just pop them up
and we'll address them here. So here's one here from
Chris wondering if you ever think about the motive and
method specifically odd that with all precisions laser surgery they
(37:50):
don't clean up their sights.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
That's a good question, and I want to get right
back to that because I just thought of something that
no one knows about in this case and the only
other case that comes close to This particular element is
the nineteen fifty two DEAs Verger's case out of Florida
where they had stove pipe cylindrical pressings into the ground
that were about four inches four and a half inches
wide four and a half inches five inches deep, and
(38:13):
there's also burned roots, not the top, but underneath the ground.
The roots were burned in the Snippy case as well
as the Desverger's case. He was a scout master, you know,
who had the hat burn He had some physical effects
and you know he was you know, either he was
taken or something happened to him, and there was police involved,
and he had three of his of his of his troop,
(38:35):
the young kids that were there that went to the
neighbor's house to call the police because he didn't come
back and all this. But that's the only other case.
There might be one other case with burned roots that
I thought that I saw, but I can't find it again.
I have to look. But that's a really interesting element,
is the burned roots. And what was the question again,
I wanted to get back to that.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Okay, hang on just a second. It was about the
why don't they clean up their sights after.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
You're right, right, right.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
So I was thinking that the reason for that is
perhaps it's not necessarily et perhaps maybe some kind of
a robot, robotic type of machine that malfunction. And that's
why we see a lot of the stove pipe. There
was about seven of them in a row. And someone
said there was another case where it looked like some
sort of an orb with pipes coming every at every
(39:20):
part of the top and it just kind of rolled,
you know, like stove pipe legs or something. And I
thought that's interesting and that could be and maybe that's
why Snippy was done so you know, poorly, they made
a mistake, dropped him.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Now what's also interesting, and we have Agnes King's actual
voice being interviewed. Was a Jalen Heinich that was interviewing her.
But she had a sighting of something unusual over the
ranch house the day of Snippy's capture and then a
week later as well, and she described it as very low,
it was silent. She didn't have her glasses, but she
(39:57):
said it was metallic humming humming. It had a hum sound,
and another thing that's reported from many people, Harry King,
Agnes King, Nellie King. They had physical things as well,
as other animals that had and I think I sent
a picture to Martin of strange growth of the hoofs
that was unnatural. Animals that are blinded, humans that are
(40:18):
going blind and like we talked about earlier, Ernest Wellington
along with Nelly, found that strange tool in the Chico brush.
He passes away a week later and talking to his daughter,
she's suspicious that it could have to tie into what
he was exposed to. Now why it didn't affect Nelly,
I do not know, but she yeah, Oh, Nellie's hand
(40:38):
when she touched it was burned and it stayed that
way for about an hour until she got in washed it.
But here's other picture of the strange indentations around that
Chico brush that they cast it. And that sliced Chico
brush is very similar to it was found out at
Lonnie's Moore of the Secoro case as well. They almost
(40:59):
look at they took castings of that and compared it
to the Succoro case. But you know, here's the guy
that knows, Oh, you got to talk about this.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
So this little footprint here, it's a bit of a
misnumber because on the actual photographs. And then we showed
the actual original source material from the archives in the book.
But it's not that big of a print because I
have a photograph of Don Richmond's feet right in front
of it, and these prints are relatively small, and there's
only two of them. They just pressed into the ground.
They didn't we don't know where they came from. We
don't know where they went. They just were right there
(41:30):
and that was it.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, only two. I mean, they could be bear there.
They don't look like sasquatch or bigfoot, but there are
reports of cryptids in the area. But it's just strange
that there's only two two, just two in the area.
So that's kind of a weird thing. And it's funny
too when the recordings are like, oh, we don't want
this to get out to the press, so they really
kept that secret, along with some other things as well.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
So boy, that's that's really something. I mean, Uh, there's
just so much more to this case than I ever realized. Fascinating.
I'm having a good time here. So here's another question here.
Have you ever had a chance to consult with Colem
color her regarding the mutations?
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Now we have not. In fact, there's a lot of
people we need to talk to about it like Chuck
Lukowski as well, and we just haven't had the time
or the opportunity, but we hope to.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Here's another question here. Maybe it's to study the human
effects on the environment and wildlife, like seeing humans make
a mess and trying to figure out what kind of
harm we're doing. Interesting thought. Let's see if we have
any other questions here. Looks like that's it for the questions,
and I think we should probably dive into the ranch.
(42:48):
Just I don't know how much you know about that, Tony,
but boy, you've really given a lot to this and
I really appreciate everything.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
A branch. I studied the word about a fifty thousand
times now helping her.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Okay, so yeah, okay, But anyway, Tony, I just want
to say I'm really glad that you came on the show.
It's always great having you as a guest. And yeah,
you're right on target with all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
It's great that we were in a raised atticts so
to speak, sweating.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, are so for the person that's not aware. I
know you were on my show, you were on the
Everything Else show that I do on occasion, and you
talked about the ranch. But there's a lot of people,
perhaps not a lot of people, but there are some
people that are unaware of anything to do with this ranch.
If you could talk about that, Katie, why don't you
(43:38):
set the stage for you grew up there, right, or
you grew up going there?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, I grew up going there. Thank goodness, I didn't
live there full time because I believe if I lived
there full time, I wouldn't be talking about it today
or investigating it. But in a nutshell, my mother worked
for United Airlines at the Denver Tech Center. She was
a computer operator. Started dating a gentleman in nineteen seventy
three nineteen seventy four who bought a ranch out in
(44:06):
Albert County, Colorado, in a small town called Kaiwa, and
a lot of things happened there over a three year period.
This is where Linda Moulton how got her start as
an investigated journalist because so many animal mutilations were occurring
at the time. So my mom's boyfriend had three sons.
The two younger sons lived with us during the week
to go to the Cherry Creek School District, which is
(44:26):
a large school district out here in Colorado, and so
we would drive the boys back and forth on the weekends,
or spend time there on the weekends and things like that.
We were threatened to more never to talk about the
things that happened out there, and we never knew anybody
knew anything about it at all. And so my mom,
my sister, and I, you know, just kind of carried
this with us for decades. And you know, fast forward,
(44:49):
after I raised my kids, I started questioning, like, what
was all that during that time? So I joined moufon,
started investigating UFOs and I'd come across this book right here,
and I called Kelly her. They wrote a book for
the Skinwalker before Skinwalker Ranch was a show or anything
like that. And I just read the back, going, wow,
this sounds a lot like my childhood at the Ranch.
(45:10):
So I bought the book and there's a chapter called
other Hotspots, and I started reading about the ranch in Colorado,
and I knew it had to be the ranch because
of the weird family dynamics. You know, the guy my
mom was dating never did divorce his wife, and she
was dating somebody. It was a seventies, what can I say.
It was just a weird time. But I learned in
(45:33):
this book that they had three PhDs that investigated it,
doctor Leo Sprinkle, PhD, which also did the Snippy case,
so that's kind of interesting, and Peter Van Rsdale, PhD.
In John dur a seismologist, along with others. So ever,
since I learned about that, and being that the Heritage
Center and Laramie was so close to me, just a
two and a half hour drive, I quickly went to
(45:54):
the archives and was pulling everything I could about the
ranch from my childhood. And John Schusler, who's one of
the founding fathers of moved On, when he learned of
my connection, gave me the original report. So, you know,
so for me and my sister and my mom, who's
just recently passed away, it was just an amazing revelation
(46:19):
that anybody investigated it at all. So it's just been
really interesting. And then of course Beyond Skinwalker got wind
of the ranch and they've been doing testing out there too,
which has been fantastic and has opened a lot of
doors for me to do continued and Tony two, we
go out there and try to replicate what they did
on Beyond Skinwalker. Yeah, we had another drove with our drone, so.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Oh well, let's hear it said, well, first of all,
if you could explain before you go into what you
know more recently, but can you explain some of the
things that you experienced as a child there.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Yeah, I mentioned, you know, my sister and I flipping
the frisbee out there and seeing that large, you know,
snowless dress. That's one unusual thing that both of us
really remember. Strangely enough, I had a strange box encounter
on my own, and then when they brought my sister
up for season three and beyond, they didn't put any
of the box stuff and beyond Skinwalker it just doesn't
follow the the storyline for Skinwalker Ranch. But they did
(47:18):
record it all and my sister too had a box
encounter out there, along with many other adults. But what's
interesting about the box eyewitnessed and others at the Rocky
Mountain Ranch witnessed These were like lit illuminated from within.
They made like a b sound, like if you've ever
stood under a power line or something. And they were
not as big, not like Trey Hutson. These were like
(47:40):
bigger than a shoe box, maybe eighteen twenty inches long,
maybe eight ten feet sure, right, Yeah, and Sheriff Wall
Bill Wall, the under sheriff at the time, and I
flew to Florida and interviewed his son Keith and his
widow Jean, who recently passed away, and she was a
wonderful woman. But Sheriff Wall had an account or with
(48:00):
one of these boxes as well. He was out on patrol,
sees a light in a box where it shouldn't be,
didn't want to approach it. He goes back, it's a posse,
sheriff and as they approached the box, he said, it
was as if the box and the tree went into
the ground. So that occurred, Yeah, crypticiding. He bought hum sounds.
(48:23):
That was the first thing. Yeah, even in San Luis Valley,
a these strange like the Taus hum and I can
still I mean, it's very vivid in my mind. So
a lot of these strange hums and bangs underground. The
scariest night for me though, which they try to replicate
and beyond Skinwalker, I believe the first season was that
(48:43):
scary night. It was the boys' mom's birthday. We were
all hanging out at the ranch house on the weekend.
The adults are in the front room, me and my
sister and the three boys were hanging out in the
back room and that hum sound comes up, and all
of a sudden, this bright light out of the window,
brighter than any light I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
That we're all.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Freaking out, the powers out in the house, the hum
sounds going on, and at that point it was like
from every orifice in the house. And the reason I
can say it verbatim is because it's in the Apple report.
But it basically told us. It said, attention, we have
allowed you to remain We have interfered with your lives
very little. Do not cause us to take action which
(49:22):
you will regret. Your friends will be instructed remaining silent
concerning us. And that was a terrifying night. I ended
up getting a full blown migraine, had like it was paralyzed,
couldn't speak for a while that night, and on and
on and on. So that was my scariest night, and
my sisters and my family scariest out there. And you know,
as the investigator in me now I learned is something
(49:43):
called plasma ball technology, because we do know there was
a military connection out there. John who owned the ranch,
claimed to be Air Defense Command talked about taking legal
LSD you know, and interviewing.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Other people before that happened. John Duke Learn and he
had these books on Native American lore and he set
up an experiment with silver Native American silver and he
put up these two rods in the ground. He put
silver in between him and wire, and that's what it disappeared. Yeah,
and that's when that phenomena happened. What happened with your silver?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (50:14):
And yeah, So my favorite bracelet that I had is
a Celtic silver bracelet. When I was filming Season one,
it vanished on the ranch. You could see it when
we're launching the rockets and the next thing, you know,
that silver bracelet's gone. And I have worn that for years, years,
like three years. And yeah, I got out the metal detector.
So the whole time, the rest of the week during filming,
I'm out there trying to search my bracelet. It was gone.
So that was weird. But so many different things out there,
(50:37):
And I know there was a military presence out there.
I know, you know that possible black access projects happening
out there. We have documents in the files talking about
a soldier from Fort Carson visits the ranch. His name
was Warren. His last name's redacted out. He said he
felt something take over his mind made him walk towards
(50:58):
the woods behind the ranch house would release him. He
would run back to the ranch house and this did
this to him five times. Now, it's really fascinating, Martin,
and I think I have it here somewhere. But just
recently we had a guest on talking about the Gateway
program right so, oh, it's right here, right here, And
so I started listening to the Gateway tapes. And right during,
(51:21):
right after that strange experience I had on the ranch
with this disembodied electronic sounding voice, and I had my
full pull blown migraine headache, my mom gets approached at
her work in the Denver Tech Center with this newspaper
article asking me to be put into this program called
the Biofeedback program, and it's called the Twilight Learners. And
(51:42):
I still have my cassette tapes right here from them.
So for every week for like a year, I'd go
to the Denver Tech Center with Thomas H. Bodinski and
do this Twilight Learning where they keep you in a
theta state and they hook little wires up to your
fingers into your head and they have you you know,
put headphones on, and you basically are learning to relax
(52:03):
your body to get ready of your microing headaches. While
I started doing some research on Thomas H. Bedinski. Turns
out he was a navigational engineer for the SR seventy
one Blackbird out of Area fifty one, and I came
across a video and you can find it on my
YouTube channel where they have a little boy named Kevin
in the same program that I was put in, and
(52:25):
you have Thomas H. Bodinski saying, Okay, Kevin, can you
make the rocket go up? Can you make the rocket land?
And he did the navigation systems out of Area fifty one,
worked with the Manager Foundation, worked with the Stargate program,
the Gateway program, and the place out in Virginia, a
Monroe Institute. So all these people were working on these
(52:48):
programs along with I believe you know, the black Access
projects in MK Ultra. So that was part of the
Rocky Mountain Ranch experience as well. And being in that
program the Twilight Learners has just been kind of of
eye opening and mind blowing to me, because you know,
they want to deny that they worked with children, although
they have a video out there with little Kevin, who
(53:10):
was about the same age as I was when I
was put in the Twilight Learner. So that's new research
that I'm just I got sixty five pages on it
right now, kind of tying all these things together. So
there's no doubt that some of the activity out there
was black access government programs. But in researching the property
and stuff, I wanted to know which came first, the
weird activity or the military. And according to my research,
(53:35):
I think the activity predates some military presence because the
people that the ranch at vacant for ten to twelve years.
So first of all, the military wanted it, why did
they just not purchase it? But secondly, it was known
as the Mulligan Ranch, and so during research on the Mulligans,
there was a gentleman by the name of Dick Mulligan,
and he was born and raised on the ranch property,
(53:57):
the Rocky Mountain Ranch, and he later became the caretaker
for winter Park Ski Resort, and he was known for
bold exaggeration and the gift of gap. And I'm thinking, no,
he wasn't storytelling. He was trying to tell people all
the weird stuff that was happening out there in Olburg. County,
you know, and all that Dick, he has a gift
a gap, so so much to this and the interesting
(54:19):
thing like Tony talks about the parallels to Snippy is
just mind blowing and I had no idea, you know.
So it's been really wait a minute, yeah, that's like
the Rams.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Well, you know, I can't believe the time has gone
by so fast, and i'd like to have you both.
I think we could continue this conversation. I mean, it
seems like it seems like we're scratching the surface in
a way. I don't know if that's how you feel,
but it seems like there's a lot to talk about.
It's been really great for sure. So just throw out Katie,
(54:52):
can you throw out the name of your YouTube channel
if you will.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yes, it's Rocky Mountain Ranch Research with Katie Page.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Okay, that sounds great. So thank you both so much,
and I hope a lot of people buy your book
as well. And please do send me the link. I'll
get that in the show notes as well.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
All right, absolutely, thanks for having us here, Martin.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. So we'll be
back next week with Bill Chalker on The Australian icon
Ufo researcher on Tuesday, and next Thursday we have Tim
Ventura on so thank you both so much. Take care
of you by now
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