702. Joshua Bertrand

Is the famous “Tic Tac” a home-grown technology? In this deep-dive, Martin Willis sits down with mathematician and technologist Joshua Bertrand to explore the cutting edge—and century-long history—of America’s lighter-than-air programs, vacuum-based aerogels, and the black-budget pathways that may intersect with the Nimitz Incident. Bertrand (B.Math, University of Waterloo; Computer Science honors; former EA/industry engineer) has spent nearly a decade cross-referencing open sources, defense programs, and material-science breakthroughs.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hello, and welcome to the show. Martin Wilts your host,
and we have Joshua Bertrand on this evening. I had
someone suggested him who I trusted to come on this
show as a guest. We're going to be talking a
bit about lighter than aircraft, the possibilities. I'm going to
try to have an open mind of what the tic

(00:35):
tac ufo was in Night two thousand and four off
of the San Diego Coast. A couple of things here.
We have our blog this week, which I forgot to
mention the other day Tuesday, and it's un the UFOs.
It's so funny because I have a camera in front
of the screen. I can't read this. ICEU fon and

(00:58):
SBI by Charles Lear blogs every single week a lot
on the history of it. This has to do with
stamps that were made for the Green for Canada.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I believe it is.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Oh no, I'm sorry. This is a whole different thing.
This has to do with Lee Spiegel and sorry for
the rant here. This has to do with Lee Spiegel
when he had the United Nations back in nineteen seventy
seven discussing UFOs. It's a great blog, and sorry for
getting confused on that, So check that out over at

(01:33):
podcastufo dot com. While you're over there, there is our
merchandise store. You can check that out. There's also, like
I say, there's hundreds of blogs, and there's also there's
a place where you can leave a phone message.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
With UFO siting.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
We also have a form you can fill out that
was very active for a while where we had people
filling out there UFO encounters. I'd love to see that
get reactivated again because there's some great ones, even one
from a commercial pilot that was excellent. So a couple
of things. This next week, I'm going to be in Sedona,

(02:17):
going to be out that way, and I'm not going
to be able to do a Thursday night show next week. However,
on Tuesday Night, I will have Thiago to Chetty. He'll
be on and he's going to be talking about cases
in Brazil for you know, the UFO encounters and injuries.
So that's there's some really fascinating cases of things that

(02:39):
happen in Brazil. And again he'll be on next Tuesday.
Welcome everyone in chat and good to see everyone there.
We have a duckhead. We have Bob Blazaar. Is it
the real Bob Blazar. It's got to be. I mean,
it can't be anyone else's that's not a very common name. Hello,
Wyatt Duckhead. So hello to you all, and thanks for

(03:04):
being here tonight. And I'm going to bring in my guests. Joshua, welcome,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Nice to be here with you, Martin and nice.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Nice to have you on. And so I guess I'm
going to ask you what is your background first of all,
and what got you interested in looking at this topic.
I'm going to say the UFO topic, because that's basically
a lot of what we're going to be talking about tonight.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Sure, my background, I'm a Bachelor of Mathematics from the
University of Waterloo in two thousand and four. I spent
twenty years working in industry as a database specialist for writers,
the news agency, Electronic Arts, the video games company, SAP,
the large Databases company, and I retired about a decade ago.

(03:52):
In my retirement, I've been a fan of aerospace and
air agel's and I started looking into the crossover of
these technologies with the UAP phenomenon also a long term
interest of mine. As you can see, my rooms sort

(04:12):
of filled with a bunch of Star Wars lego. My
interests in the topic Okay, fairly obvious, but I like
to approach it looking at the technical aspects of our
real craft programs. Some of them may have been dark
for decades, but from what I've proven over the last decade,

(04:35):
some of these programs get funded and have research and
progress of prototypes happening at contractors and are outside the
knowledge of general service members of the military, potentially leading
to conflicts of misunderstandings I see.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
I had the pleasure of having Dave marl Rama show
a couple of days ago Tuesday, and I mentioned him
that I'm reading a book, Mysteries in the Sky in
nineteen sixty eight, and it starts right out with the
airship phenomenon eighteen ninety seven, eighteen ninety six, eighteen ninety seven.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
Fascinating.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
It's really fascinating to read the details. I never really
looked into it deeply, and.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
So I'm really enjoying that book.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
And does any part I mean, eighteen ninety six, eighteen
ninety seven, what do we have going on then? Were?
I mean, there were people talking about these lights, and
there were some things that, you know, really really bright lights.
Sometimes people mentioned that they heard like a noise of
some kind. But I'm trying to think of what would

(05:41):
be powering something at that time. I mean, what do
we have?

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Sure? So eighteen ninety seven you have the Aurora Texas
UAP crash, which was attributed as potential airship design, and
in eighteen ninety seven and you actually have airships in
development in Europe and in North America. Airship history goes

(06:07):
back as far as the sixteen hundreds. There was an
airship named the Pasarola by Bartelmeo de Guzmau. In five
hundred years. We seem to have been doing a lot
of evolution of this technology. The Montgaulfier brothers in France

(06:29):
in the eighteen hundreds are also doing ballooning. A man
named Daniluski in Ukraine is doing a human powered air
bike where a giant bag of lifting gas and a
bike turning a motor behind it are flying around in
the skies of Ukraine in eighteen ninety seven. So we

(06:51):
certainly have the technology to mimic the craft that are seen.
The question is, because that technology is so knew, was
it indeed shocking an alien to the people that were
encountering these not knowing that they had human developed craft
that were similar at the same time.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
I brought this up recently on a show that I had,
and this is the Simeon Perkins memo that talks basically
about airships in seventeen ninety six. I mean, so that
would that's a real crazy case. I don't know if
you've ever heard about it, but I mean there are
just a sample of a lot of things of people

(07:34):
talking about, you know, and I understand, Yes, I know
they had like a hot air type balloon situation pretty
early on. I think it was even in I think
China might have been the first country that actually held
a hot to air balloon. Am I wrong?

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Like in the thirteenth century.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, there's actually a theory going around right now that,
if you know, the Nasca lines in Peu are some
of those nascaline sites, they have found bags of animal
skins and what they suspect is that a spotter was
sent up in a hot air animal skinned balloon, and

(08:17):
that the way the precise nascaline geometries were etched out
was that they had a spotter up above them hundreds
of years before that. They've found some evidence of this.
I haven't looked into it too deeply because it's not
specifically my interest, but I have heard the the beginnings

(08:40):
of that research branch.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
Wow, pretty amazing, pretty amazing. So I guess I don't
want to jump right to the tic TAC because I
do I would do want to get there eventually, And
I'm not really sure if I'm going to agree with
you about that, but I want to be open minded
and hear about that. But until then, let's go in
to what you have seen in the evolution of these

(09:08):
you know, these basically lighter than aircraft. I think that's
what you people call them, correct, Yep, Yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
A good description of them. So if we have the
eighteen ninety seven cases that we were just talking about,
coming out of that, the US Army maintains an interest.
So before eighteen ninety seven, the US Army had been
using lighter than aircraft in the form of balloons, similar

(09:38):
to this hypothetical NASCA spotter. The US in the Civil
War would send spotters up in balloons to conduct reconnaissance
on their enemies. By nineteen oh five, that has evolved
to a powered blimp called the Gelatine, which the US

(10:02):
Army produces and it does the first powered flight across
the Columbia River Gorge. So it leaves from Portland, Oregon,
travels across the Columbia River Gorge and successfully lands in Vancouver, Washington.
So from there, two years later you have this massive

(10:26):
six hundred foot long prototype by a man named Morrel
and in San Francisco they fill up this six hundred
foot long blimp with coal gas from the city's natural
gas lines and it has I think three engines on
it with three motors, and they try to do this

(10:49):
test and the whole thing gets loose and eventually crashes down.
But you can see that even at the start of
the previous century, we're experimenting with things that are leading
into the large airships, the Goodyear blimps that we see today,
and the reconnaissance craft that the US government has that

(11:12):
are a bit more secret than the Goodyear blimp.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
And you know, during the Civil War you mentioned that,
and I remember reading about that and how they had
to fill how they had to fill that, and it
was so dangerous. A lot of them, you know, people
blew up and burned and and I can't remember what
it is that they were able to they had some
type of machine they were able to pump it full

(11:39):
of do you know what I'm thinking it.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Was hydrogen gas at the time.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Hydrogen And how could they do that back then?

Speaker 1 (11:44):
I mean, I don't understand what type of.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Living through chemistry? Yeah, yeah, amazing, produce the gas on
site from chemicals, fill it into a balloon.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, and that was a tethered balloon.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
It used to go up and they used to just
you know, which was really brilliant, you know, especially if
they could do it at night, not make any noise
and you know all that.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, they would send the guy up, pull him down
to get a report, or they could actually yell between
the person on the ground and the person up in
the pollon.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah. For years I had a couple of menus from
the Hindenberg and that was pretty cool to have that,
but just as a collector. But that's you know, one
that everyone remembers when it.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
The Hindenburg definitely leaves an impression in people's minds and
shows why we for a century tended to use helium
instead of hydrogen as our main lifting guys.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, and is there it's just a limited resource.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, So one of the issues that is being thought
of these days is we've used helium for about a
century in our lighter than aircraft, and we've used it
to staggering extents. Recently, the US military had sixty nine

(13:05):
lighter than air aristots created to provide reconnaissance craft for
the Afghanistan War. And in each of those craft, you're
filling it with a couple hundred thousand liters of helium,
and when you when you need to bring the craft

(13:27):
back down, you either winch it down or you vent
that helium to the atmosphere. And if you're ever moving
the craft from a single site to another site, you
have to vent that helium. And it's rather difficult to
recover when it ends up in the atmosphere because it's
lighter than the typical concentrations of gas in our atmosphere.

(13:50):
Helium rises to the top and hangs out in your space,
so it's really hard to recover that way. The way
that we get new helium these days is by fractionally
distilling it from natural gas. So when the government is
deciding that it's okay to pump natural gas, you can

(14:11):
siphon some amount of helium off from that pumping station.
The issue with that is eventually that's going to run out.
If we keep putting hundreds of thousands or even sometimes
millions of leaders of helium in these aerostats and blimps
and venting it out into the atmosphere, eventually our use

(14:34):
is going to outstrip our production. And because of that,
people have been thinking about.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
How to.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Replace these lighter than air reconnaissance craft once helium is
a more scarce resource. Now we could go back to
the dangerous hydrogen of the Hindenburg and the Civil War
era balloons, but again that's quite dangerous, as the Hindenburg

(15:06):
spectacularly showed. So one of the things that the National
Labs have been doing at Los Alamo's National Lab is
working on what's known as a vacuum balloon, and a
vacuum balloon has been theorized all the way back to Aristotle.

(15:26):
His concept of horror vacuue is well sort of basically
described as what's lighter than hydrogen nothing, And so if
you have the absence of a gas, it's actually lighter
than if you have just basic atmosphere that you and

(15:47):
I are breathing in. So if you're able to contain
a vacuum within a solid shell, that craft itself would
be lighter than the air around it and would have
lift on its own. So the way that they've attempted
to do this is by crafting the shell of these

(16:09):
vacuum craft out of a material known as aerogel. And
the unique properties of aerogel allow it to both resist
the crushing pressure of the outer atmosphere attempting to get
into that vacuum on the inside of the craft, and
it also prevents the atmosphere from traveling through the shell

(16:33):
and penetrating and diffusing into the vacuum on the inside.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
So as material, yeah, can you explain what that is?

Speaker 3 (16:42):
And is it.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Something that is a compound and alloy? What is it? Exactly?

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (16:49):
So?

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Air agels are a material that goes back to nineteen
thirty one. A man named Samuel Stephens Kissler first synthesized
this material and wrote a paper in Nature magazine. In
it he describes I think eleven different types of aerogel

(17:11):
that he's synthesized, and how he does that is by
taking gel like jello or gelatine, and if you remove
all of the water from that gel, you're left with
just the solids that would make it up for gello
that's mostly like gelatine itself, like the airship from nineteen

(17:36):
oh five was named. But if you make this gelatine
out of different materials, like out of a silica or
out of an alumina, what you're left with is the
skeletal structure of that silica or alumina. And as you've

(17:58):
removed this water, it's created a fine network of pores
in the material. So the skeleton and the pores mean
that the material is extremely lightweight after the removal of
the liquids. So essentially you have a gelatin that has

(18:20):
all of its liquid removed. That's what an aerogel is.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
And is it the strength of it? What would you
compare it to.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
So each of the different materials that you can make
an aerogel out of lens the final result in aerogel
different properties, as well as the manufacturer manufacturing process of
the aerogel itself. So if you have the typical blue
silica aerogel, it's usually rather brittle as as it's pretty

(19:00):
much just silica. There are some stronger variants of silica
meta materials. L I nine hundred was manufactured by lockeed.
They used it as a re entry tile on the
Space Shuttle. But some aerogels aren't made of silica. Some

(19:24):
are made of polyimides and aluminas, and these can be
much more structurally rigid than the traditional blue silica aer agels.
So they well have innovated a new process called air LOI,
which is you take this skeleton of aerogel that's resulted

(19:47):
by removing the liquids, and then you coat this skeleton
with a polymer and that adds a structural rigid d
to the material by binding it all together while still
maintaining the porous structure that gives it its lightweight.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
So it has when you say it has a poor structure,
I can't understand how it can. You can create a
vacuum withinside a chamber.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
How does that?

Speaker 1 (20:18):
How does that work?

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Sure? So these pores are extremely small, we're talking on
the nanoscale, pores, not not not large. So because the
pores are so small, the mean free path for an
atom of air or a molecule of our atmosphere won't

(20:43):
be able to travel through that network of pores. The
it bounces essentially off of the walls of the pores.
And sort of gets trapped, so it'll never make it
through the material itself if attempts to get into one
of these pores. Because the size of the connectivity between

(21:06):
the pores is so small, the essentially molecules of the
atmosphere get trapped in this maze of porosity.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
I got it. And it's just so this is something
I can't really understand how this was created and all that,
but I mean it's just something that they can use,
like nano. I can't forget what it was. But there's
some type of like this weave that's really thin but
very strong. Is that anything to do with it or

(21:37):
can it be coated with something like that to make it?

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Are you talking about graphene?

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, graphine, that's it. Yes, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
So one of the interesting aerogels is actually called aero graphene,
and it is an aerogel that is made out of graphene.
So you make a gel of graphene and a liquid,
and you remove the liquid from this gel in a
supercritical drying process, and what you're left with is a

(22:08):
skeleton of interconnected graphine molecules called aerographine, and it has
the same properties as some of the other aerogels, but
the aerographine is also conductive because of the properties of graphene.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
Okay, we should say this to the listener. We're talking
now about things since basically nineteen thirty, since this was invented,
and you know, going forward. But let's talk about I
know you have given me some graphics that I can
pull up, but let's talk about the evolution of what
we know.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
I know that is in one of these I think,
is it here?

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Is that it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Sure, that's a good graphic to start with.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Okay, So.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
If you start over there at the left hand side
at eighteen fifty, there is, as we've already discussed, predecessor airships.
But as you go through this development from eighteen fifty
to nineteen sixty, you can see the rapid technological process
or progress that is being made. We start with a

(23:17):
simple Giffard blimp, fairly low level flying in the atmosphere,
and it progresses through these decades to getting the Hindenburg,
the Akron, and the Macon, which were used by the
US Navy.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
There was a.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Staggering amount of progress made through the first half of
the nineteen hundreds, and in nineteen sixty all of this
progress seemingly stops. At the time. You have the US's
Project Genetrix and Project Mogul, Project Skyhook, a bunch of

(24:00):
balloon programs that are happening in secret because their intention
is to conduct reconnaissance on the Soviet Union. So even
if you were in the US Army at a base
where these Project Mogul balloons are being launched from in

(24:21):
the nineteen fifties, you would not know of their existence
because they are being held as a closely held secret project.
So this did result in some unfortunate encounters. I think
there was a man named B. C. Moore, he was

(24:43):
involved with Project Mogul. On his own obituary, he claims
that one of the Project Mogul balloons that he launched
was what crashed at Roswell, And of course there is
going to be a lot of of a lot of
pushback on that. But during the research of these programs,

(25:09):
I found that man's obituary and he claims a very
specific balloon and provides timings for it which do match
up with the Roswell incident.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Well, there would be a lot of questions when it
comes to that, like, for instance, why if it was
made of normal materials which it was, and it crashed
from the ground. Why would it be such a secret?
Why would they scan every single inch of the property
where it supposedly was, and why would there be so
many people involved and then flown to another air base

(25:41):
and all that. I mean, there's a lot of there's
a lot of moving parts that would have to be
addressed if that was just the mogul. Sure so, yeah,
And why would they Why would the Army Air Force
claim that they captured a disc in the first place?
You know?

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Sure? So. The balloon itself is made out of a
fairly typical plastic at the time, But the sensor tether
that is below the balloon, the image that you just showed,
the sensors and the battery technology that is powering those
sensors would be what is considered the top secret part

(26:21):
of that mogul mission. Those were not widely known at
the time. As you can see, they don't look like
a balloon and they don't look like any kind of
aircraft that would be expected to be in our skies
at the time. So when that comes down surrounded by

(26:42):
a bunch of lightweight metallized plastic, it could have been
mistaken by the ranchers, who would have known nothing of
Project Mogul, or balloons or sensor tethers or experimental batteries
that are powering them. The reason that they recovered it

(27:02):
and the reason that it was sent back to Wright
Patterson Air Base. We can see in documentation from nineteen
fifty six that Wright Patterson Air Base, Redstone Arsenal, and
Los Alamos National Labs are designated as the three primary

(27:24):
contacts for helium, hydrogen and aerogels research. So the three
lighter than air technologies are all concentrated at Redstone Arsenal,
Wright Patterson Air Base, and Los Alamos National Labs as
far back as nineteen fifty six in AEC documentation. And

(27:45):
AEC is the predecessor of the modern Department of Energy.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh really, okay, I didn't know that. So are you?
Basically on the school of that this was Roswell the Mogul,
And that's explained.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
I am the man's obituary, as well as the fact
that the material was sent back to Right Patterson, which
if you look at Right Patterson, this went to hangars,
which is where you develop later than air airships. We
found that it is designated as the place for this

(28:25):
research to be going on. So if there was a
crash recovery of even a Mogul balloon, it would go
back to right Patterson or Redstone, Arsenal or Los Almos.
So it did line up with the facts to me,
and as we have seen suggested by a recent New

(28:48):
York Times article, even in modern days, the military does
like to use UAP's UFOs and the suggestion of aliens
as cover for real projects. So I believe that this
has been going on as far back as Roswell.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Well, okay, I just think there's too many things too.
I personally disagree with you, and that's the end of
the show. Good night. No, just.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
No, I've had that response before.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Well, you know, I don't think we should waste a
lot of time, and that I understand. You know, that
is interesting what you're saying about this obituary, because I
have heard the story about the Mogul before, but from
what I understood, it didn't line up. So I would
be interested if you wouldn't mind connecting me more to

(29:41):
that information, you know, through email, just so I can
read about it more.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Definitely, continue this discussion after this. This doesn't have to
be a single appearance. We can touch base on the
back channels and see what we've gotten.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Sure, I'll discuss it further.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
I'd also like to see that article you had from
the eighteen hundreds.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Seventeen ninety six.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, so sure, i'd be glad to So let me
just ask you this just outright. Do you think there's
really something to the UFO topic?

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Oh, one hundred percent. Even in my first interview I
think two or three years ago with Simon Holland, he
asked me for what percentage of the cases do I
believe or technological? And I think he was expecting me
to say one hundred percent. I don't believe that there
are cases that are not explained by these technological programs.

(30:35):
I can't explain a giant red cube hovering out of
the ocean and showing up at Vandenberg Military Base at all.
There's clearly something there as well. The origins of all
of these technologies are very undocumented. If you go back

(30:57):
to that sixteen hundred's pass or airship of Bartelomeo de
gouz Mao, there's no predecessors for that. I mean, we're
talking about Aristotle vaguely discussing these theories centuries beforehand, and
maybe some Peruvians sending a single person up in a

(31:17):
goat skin version of a hot air balloon. But the
craft that they're describing Bartolomeo de guz Mao having in
the sixteen hundreds is a full featured modern airship, and
for him to have just come upon that or invented

(31:38):
that out of nowhere, you require a stretch of the
imagination versus normal technological progress. We see these things happening
in baby steps even today, versus you don't rarely see
a new technology come from nowhere and enter the scene

(32:02):
fully fledged.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
No, there's no leaps. There's no leaps in technology, and
I totally agree with that. It's like you could say
that the car was invented before the wheel, you know,
I mean it just it can't happen. There is baby steps,
and so I totally agree with that part of it.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, and you even see that the technology takes a
rapid step backwards after that. So the balloons that the
Montgolfiers are then doing in the eighteen hundreds are very simple,
just a bag filled with lifting gas compared to a
full featured airship existing two centuries beforehand. The bags filled

(32:46):
with lifting gas could be our attempt at reverse engineering
the full featured airship that has just come onto the
scene from an unknown origin as well, when aer agels
come onto the scene. In that nineteen thirty one Nature
paper from Kissler, he's presenting thirteen new different era agels,

(33:12):
and there was never an eer agel before his nineteen
thirty one paper. If you go into his research and
his lab notes, he credits the prior work of a
Danish physicist named Nudsen who was working on gas flow
theory in about nineteen twenty, So gas flow theory in

(33:37):
nineteen twenty also very poorly sourced for prior art and
Nudsen's work well, I've posited that these would have both
been reverse engineering efforts that were tied together. As my

(33:58):
friend Bob Spearing of Moufon has shown, Kistler actually goes
over to Germany in the years before his invention of
aerogel and meets Nudsen there. So if Nudsen was reverse
engineering an extant material to come up with his gas

(34:23):
flow theory and hands this material to Kissler to continue
the development, Kistler then takes this material and reproduces it
and within the same year, Einstein and Sialard have taken
this material aer agel, which has just entered the technological scene,

(34:48):
and have made a pump with it that functions with
no moving parts. So for all three of those technological
leaps to happen in such rapid fashion with no prior
art also suggests that they were reverse engineering something. Now
it's really amazing.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
There are potential sources as well of both natural materials
that resemble aero agels and of aerogels themselves. So there's
materials known as tech tites, which have similar porosity as aerogel,

(35:29):
but are naturally formed. These are these regularly come down
to our Earth through the atmosphere, and an interesting aspect
of tech tites is when they've re entered our atmosphere
and been cut open. Occasionally we will find biologic material

(35:50):
that has been preserved through re entry into our planet.
So there's discussion in the UA phenomenon of biologics, and
they do use that term very specifically as a replacement
for bodies sometimes. And I've also posited that I believe

(36:15):
that these biologics that have been preserved and studied by
the program are actually this biological material that is trapped
in the pores of a tech tite or an aerogel
when it re enters our atmosphere. So if you produced

(36:38):
these in the correct way, you've got a von Neumann probe.
You've got something that can take biological material, spread it
throughout the galaxy, and it's preserved through re entry, it's
preserved through space travel.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
And sounds like and spermia to me.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, we've found these on Earth containing material that did
not come from Earth. So I'd suggest if people are
interested in that particular area of the topic, that Luella
Zondo's book Imminent actually does contain some writing that alludes
to this. He suggests that Monsanto had original control of

(37:25):
the quote unquote biologics. Well in nineteen thirty one, when
Kissler invents that aer agel stuff, who does he hand
the patent off to Monsanto. Monsanto, by nineteen forty has
control of the aer agel's is making their own versions

(37:46):
of aerogel named Santo cell and by the fifties it's
all been handed back to Wright, Patterson, Los Alamos and
Redstone Arsenal.

Speaker 3 (37:59):
Wow, this is all fascinating.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
You mentioned Bob Spearing a minute ago and I remember,
does this have anything to do with the medals? That
it does? Doesn't it?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
It definitely does.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Let me just ask you this. I was there the
year before and I didn't go and this. I was
there when this was Yes, I was there on the
twenty twenty four, but I was not there in twenty
twenty five.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
Did they said they were.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Going to release some information about that?

Speaker 3 (38:32):
And what do you know about that? Was this anything.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Possibly off world? Or is it all explainable?

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Sure? So you were there in twenty twenty four when
they received the sample from the Russian gentlemen. Since then,
Moufon has contracted with a lab known as pr OUT
of Australia. PRA did several thousand dollars I think Bob
said forty thousand dollars of testing on these materials and

(39:05):
the results that they came up with was that this
substance was an aerogel. And more so than that, this
substance that they've retrieved from Russia is an aerogel that
had previously been in space. When they were doing their testing,
the aerogel has been exposed to cosmic rays. Now, there's

(39:29):
no way to do that in a guy's apartment in
Russia that I know of. So how did an aerogel
that has been exposed to the cosmic rays of space
end up at this guy's desk in Moscow? And then
how did it end up getting sent on to move

(39:51):
on for analysis. I'm very glad that it did, because
it's shown I think our first example outside of military
contractors of this material. There are references in some of
the UAP discussions and spaces to recovered materials that are

(40:15):
being analyzed by defense contractors. One of the defense contractors,
Lockheed Martin, has a whistleblower named Richard Bandurich. Bandurich alleges
that Lockheed Martin has recovered extraterrestrial materials that they are
analyzing and reproducing. And one of his claims about these

(40:39):
materials is that if you put the material on a
hot plate of three thousand degrees, it will suck the
heat out of the hot plate. And one of the
fascinating properties of air agels is that that's exactly what
they do. So when Bandurich is describing that, he, in

(41:01):
my mind, is describing that Lockheed Martin is in possession
as well of these aerogels that have been reverse engineered
by our government for at least ninety three years.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Interesting, Well, I don't blame why. I said quite some
time ago, let's get to the tic TAC and yeah,
you know, we have talked quite a ways, and that
is something that I.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Do want to discuss.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
So I want to hear what you think that people
were seeing off the post and two thousand and four
off the San Diego coast. And I have a lot
of questions about that because I did hear some of
what you said with doctor Simon, and I thought of
a couple things to ask you. So if you would
try to explain what you think they are, and I

(41:50):
know you were on the UAP Crossfire and they're all
on board. They've been on board all along with us
a secret military, and I would argue with them almost
on a semi weekly basis about the tic TAC, you know,
being something other than our technology. So I want to
hear why you think it's our technology, and then I

(42:12):
want to just maybe perhaps gently challenge you on some
of my thoughts.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Sure, so I think it'll be helpful if I go
past that nineteen sixty cutoff date where we said all
of this airship technology sort of disappears into the dark
of the aerospace majors. Okay, So one of the images
that I sent you, I think is called two poball s.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Okay, I'll take a look. It's say that one more time.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Two pball pob al d s looks like a white
image of an airship drawn on paper.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
I got it right here, yes, sure.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
So by nineteen seventy two, the US Air Force and
a company known as Raven Industries or working in secret
on this pobals airship and the way that it's designed.
It's going to have solar panels on the top part
of the airship powering an engine and the lifting gas

(43:19):
and the engine are going to keep this airship in
the jet stream for thirty days. And they want to
test whether they can keep a long endurance reconnaissance craft aloft.
And it was successful. And this nineteen seventies program of
Raven Industries led into an nineteen eighties and nineties program

(43:43):
at DARPA called DARPA Project Sentinel. And Project Sentinel was
working on an airship and the airship that they came
out with, I believe was called the airship six hundred.
The DARPA Project Sentinel. We end up in two thousands

(44:05):
the timeframe of the tic Tech and in the two
thousands DARPA starts up DARPA Project Walrus and DARPA Project
Walrus is to take these high altitude, long endurance blimps
and advance the technologies that are constituent to them. So

(44:28):
you can see they're a slide of the Darper Project
Walrus in its initial days discussing vectored propulsion technologies, aerogel,
foam filled tanks, reduce drag skin. All of these bubbles

(44:52):
of texts that are around this are the project areas
that they are funding to produce advancements. So they've got
the basic airship six hundred that came out of Project
Sentinel of the nineties and they want to take that
and make these more advanced, stealthier, higher endurance, longer duration capacity.

(45:22):
So as this is all being worked on, there are
prime contractors that are working on these airships with DARPA.
So one of them is Lockheed Martin. You showed it
briefly there was a silvery airship sitting in a hangar.
This is the Lockheed HAA high altitude airship. It was

(45:46):
tested and actually crashed, and all of that helium that
is filling it. I think several million leaders is now
vented to the atmosphere and gone forever. While they were
doing this program, they weren't just testing these ultra large

(46:07):
high altitude ships. They were also dealing with all of
the aspects of the technology. So one of the other
tech that results from this is the persistent Threat Detection
System or TARS, tethered a radar system. You can see

(46:28):
these right now in the US if you go to
the southern border. They're used for reconnaissance of our own
border by DHS in two thousand and two. One of
the variants of this is a tethered submarine deployed aerostat,

(46:53):
And what the aristat is designed to do is if
the submarine is under the it can release this aerostat
which will go above the water and provide a view
down on all of the area around the submarine. So

(47:14):
the submarine obviously doesn't have windows, you can't see what's
outside of you other than with radar. Well now you
can if you send an aerostat up that will look down.
That aerostat will be capable of providing you with an
enhanced tactical view of your surroundings up to a couple

(47:36):
hundred kilometers if you tether them high up enough in
the atmosphere. These things existed. They were known as the LASH,
the littoral airborne sensor hyper spectral. The reason that it's
called hyper spectral is because the sensor itself looks at

(47:58):
multiple spectrum and can actually see through the water. So
if you're a submarine and you're able to see what's
in the water or under the water for hundreds of
kilometers around you, well you have tactical superiority over any
opposition submarine or surface vessel that doesn't have one of

(48:23):
these hyper spectral tethered aerostat cameras.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Can I ask you, how does that are you talking about?
This would be something in the sky looking down and
it can look through the water. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (48:38):
So this the first thing that comes to mind is
sunken ships with gold treasure. I mean, do people use
this to try to find a shipwreck?

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Yes, they use it to detect shipwrecks. They use it
also to track marine animals. So one of the programs
that the Department of Energy pubblicly discusses these LASH balloons
regarding is that they were used to track pods of
whales off the Atlantic coast, so they wanted to see

(49:13):
how these whales were carrying out their adventures during a year,
and since this sensor can look through the water, they
were able to have a surface boat deploy one of
these lash balloon sensors and just follow a pod of
whales for I think a year. The submarine deployed version

(49:36):
is not widely discussed as far as I can find.
I can only find references to it in scattered Department
of Defense documentation, but it is discussed specifically as being
tested in San Diego between two thousand and two and

(49:56):
two thousand and five. So we evidence that this lash
balloon exists. We have evidence that it is tested at
the same time as the Nimtz incident. We have a
very visually similar look between the tic TAC and the
airship six hundred and these submarine deployed lash balloons. So

(50:22):
there's certainly something that should be considered and if anything
at least ruled out, at least we should know that
this isn't what Fraver saw. So that's sort of what
I'm trying to do, just bring this into the discussion,
as it is something that is relevant, and I'm not

(50:43):
saying one hundred percent certainty that this was what it is,
but it would have been an unknown too favor At
the time, he would not have had a need to
know about the submarine deployed lash balloons, and this would
have been the first time that he would have ever
encountered one, so to him it would have looked like

(51:05):
a bunch of roiling water where the submarine is deploying
this tethered balloon. When it breaks the water's surface. If
there's any kind of surface wind near the surface of
the ocean, the balloon itself will ping pong back and
forth because of the wind, but the tether is holding

(51:26):
it in place, so it can only pingpong in a
certain rapid area. The tether also allows it to rise
in the air column, which I think is what Fraver saw.
And I don't recall any direct testimony from Fravor where
he attributes the speeds that are later attributed by Kevin Kanno.

(51:52):
Knooth does a calculation based on two positions reported by
radar and interpolates that the craft is capable of traveling
between these two positions at that speed. I would throw
out that Kevin Day, the radar operator on the Princeton

(52:12):
who's also involved in this incident, noted that for days
before the incident, they had been observing multiple of these
objects going up and down in the atmosphere column on
their radars. So if they were testing this, there were

(52:33):
multiple of these objects in the area at the time.
We know this from Day's testimony. If the object that
goes up in the air column at Fraver's position is
entirely a different, distinct object than the object that later
shows up at the cap point, then Kevin Knooth's assumption

(52:57):
that this is one object with incredible speeds falls apart.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Okay, I want to play let's see. I'm going to
keep you a little bit longer, and we're going to
say goodbye to everyone over at KGr A Radio. And
because i'd like to play I was in the room
when this was I was in the room when David
Fraber was speaking, and I looked at my film and
I was behind him, right behind him, and the audio

(53:27):
wasn't good. So I decided that I was going to
take the opening statement that was you know, on commercial
TV at that time, and I'd like to share that
now with what he says.

Speaker 4 (53:43):
We arrived at the location at approximately twenty thousand feet
in the controller called merge plat, which means that our
radar blip was now in the same resolution cell as
the contact. As we looked around, we noticed that we
saw some whitewater off our right side. It's important to
note that the weather on this day was as close
to perfect as you could ask. We're off the coast
of San Diego Skies, light winds, calm seas, no white
caps from waves, so the white water stood out in

(54:04):
a large blue ocean. All four of us because we
were in F eighteen F so we had pilots and
Wizow in the back seat, looked down a small salt
white tic TAC object with a longitudinal axis pointing north
south and moving very abruptly over the water like.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
A ping pong ball. There were no roadors, no rotor.

Speaker 4 (54:20):
Wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings.
As we started clockwise towards the object, my wiz and
I decided to go down and take a closer look,
with the other aircraft staying and high covered to observe
both us and the TICTAC. We proceeded around the circle
about ninety degrees from the start of our descent, and
the object suddenly shifted its longitudinal axis, aligned it with

(54:41):
my aircraft, and began to climb. We continued down to
another two hundred and seventy degrees nose low where the
tic tac. We consented two hundred and seventy degrees toward
and we went nose load to where the tictac would
have been. Our altitude at this point was about fifteen
thousand feet in the tictack was about twelve thousand. As
we pulled nose onto the object within a a half
mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us

(55:02):
and disappeared. Our wingmen, roughly eight thousand feet above us
lost contact.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Also.

Speaker 4 (55:07):
We immediately turned back to see where the white water
was at, and it was gone also, So as you
started to turn back towards the east, the controller came
up and said, sir, you're not going to believe this,
but that thing is at your cat point roughly sixty
miles away in less than a minute. You can calculate
the speed. We returned to Nimitz. We were taking off
our gear. We were talking to one of my crews
that was getting ready to launched. We mentioned it to
him and they went out and luckily got the video

(55:28):
that you see that ninety second video. What you don't
see is the radar tape. It was never released and
we don't know where it's at the act of jamming
that the object put on an APG seventy three radar
and I can get into modes later if you're interested.
What is shocking to us is that the incident was
never investigated, none of my crew ever questioned, tapes were
never taken, and after a couple of days it turned
into a great story with friends.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
Well there it is.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Let me just take that down and so just basically,
you know, you heard all that, and so let's address
a couple of those things. First of all, when it
ended up showing up fifty miles away, are you just
going to say that was another one?

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Is that what you mean? Yeah, My assumption is that
the one that showed up fifty miles away is totally
distinct from the object that disappeared at FRAVR. My assumption
is the object exited above fravor And during his discussions
on several other podcasts like The Joe Rogan Experience, he

(56:31):
does indicate the object exited his observational area going up.
It didn't wink out of existence.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
And how can this thing move so fast? You have
wind resistance, you have all these things involved. Where you're
talking about a tether when he's talking about it being
at twelve thousand feet, are you saying that it's a
tether at twelve thousand feet?

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Yeah, I believe that these were tethered balloons at the time.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
They would have a tether from a submarine going up
to twelve thousand twelve.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Yeah, I sent you. I sent you a patent describing
how this technology works, just to show that these can exist.
It's five Boeing patent describes a saunobuoy deployed aerostat which
is deploying from a saunobuoi under the water and having

(57:28):
a tethered aerostat deployed from that. So similarly to the
Sauno booi, you can have one of these in the
vertical launch cells of a submarine.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Okay, But to me, I just I can't imagine something
having I can't imagine that we have tethers that long.
I mean, that's just one thing we actually do have
twelve thousand feet tethers.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Yeah, the balloons that are conducting the reconnaissance at the
southern US border themselves are also tethered.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Oh, I can believe that. I just just for this
to come out of a submarine. And so how did
it do the dogfight type of situation.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
You know where he describes it mirroring his movements as
they cross the circle. I believe what that is. And
this is a speculation on my part, and none of
us know.

Speaker 5 (58:26):
The actual facts of this because the radar tapes, as
Fraver noted there, were confiscated and are gone, so all
we can do really is speculate.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
My theory is that the crossing motion that he was
experiencing is because of the bow shock that his jet
is producing. The tethered aristat itself does not have much
inertia to it. It's very low mass, so if you

(58:59):
int a source of wind or a source of external
force to that aerostat, it will produce outsized motions in response. So,
because it is very light, the amount of force needed
to move it is not the same as the amount

(59:23):
of force needed to move an F eighteen, which I
think weighs twenty thousand kilograms. So as his plane is
moving through the atmosphere as he describes, he's coming down
and moving in a circular pattern to descend. He is
producing what's known as a bowshock from his plane, so

(59:44):
that's moving the atmosphere out of the way of the plane.
When that motion, when that air that's been pushed away
encounters the aerostat, it is going to also douce a
responsive motion in the aerostat. And I think that that's

(01:00:05):
why he says it was responding to my movements, is
because his bow shock of his plane is inducing movement
in the aerostat itself. That that's my best yes, quote
unquote as to that part of the technique of the encounter.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
All right, what about the the image I'm going to
try to pull it up where there's a video of
someone taking I believe it was a Flair video that
they were taking of and they actually did capture the
tic tac. I just can't get it up because it's
a different format, but they capture it. They go fast
in fact, Nope, not the go fast Nope, it's it's

(01:00:50):
the actual tic tac shape. Unfortunately, I just tried to
download the image that came up as a as an
image that won't let me show it to you, But
it shows a tiktac it's being tracked and all of
a sudden it goes off screen really fast.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
And I've seen a couple of videos like that that
can be Flur operator causing that motion. So if you
assume that you have a Flur operator who has a
camera and he's focused on a object, if he then
slews his camera view to the left, it'll look like
the craft is traveling rapidly to the right, but the

(01:01:31):
craft itself may be stationary. So you would need to
know the angles that the Flur camera were pointed at
at the time of the apparent motion to rule that
camera operator motion out.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Okay, well, I do believe that people have tried to
debunk that particular one in that type of fashion, and
someone can correct me if I'm wrong, But I don't
think they've been able to actually debunk that one as
like the operator or any other type of situation like that.
Maybe I'm wrong about that, and if so, someone feel

(01:02:09):
free to contact me and let me know. So just
another thing, how could something like this move like you
talked about Kevin Kanouth. Are you saying you believe his
theory about the eighty thousand foot or whatever. It was
dropped down to the ocean in less than a second
and the really high g force. Do you think that

(01:02:30):
was all incorrect?

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
So one of the issues with the radar is it
had just been upgraded at the time, so it's seeing
these objects for quote unquote the first time during that incident,
as it had just been upgraded. One of the issues, sorry,
hour of talking, I need to take a little bit

(01:02:53):
of a drink. One of the issues with balloons them
is that they're largely radar transparent. So if you have
a balloon today, even a hot air balloon, it needs
a transponder on it to comply with FAA regulations. Because

(01:03:13):
our own radars are going to look at that plastic
bag filled with gas and they're going to see right
through it. Maybe you'll see radar reflection off of the gondola,
or if it's a weather balloon, maybe you'll see a
reflection off of one of the toad sensors of the

(01:03:35):
sensor teather. But because they don't show up very well
on radar, and they're in fact showing up for quote
unquote the first time during this incident, I think what
the radar is having an issue with is detecting these
objects at all, and when it's saying that it's seeing

(01:03:57):
them going up and down from eighty thousand feet to
sea level. One of the issues with the eighty thousand
feet is that it's not having objects that are disappearing
at eighty thousand feet. Eighty thousand feet is the service
ceiling of that radar, so that's as high as the

(01:04:19):
radar can actually see. So if we have a balloon
that's being deployed to a typical weather balloon station of
one hundred thousand feet, the radar is going to lose
track of it at some point and it's going to
quote unquote disappear. Okay. Other problem is the radar is

(01:04:42):
going to have a really hard time seeing that balloon
because there's no transponders on these prototypes that they're testing
at the time. If it's getting a rough detection. We
haven't verified this, but I've put it forwards and it's

(01:05:03):
going to be tough to verify this because you're going
to need specs of military radar. But if there's a tough,
a hard to see detection, it may not know what
the height of the object is it may know the
rough angle to the object that it's seeing something when

(01:05:24):
it's scanning that part of its sweep angle, but it
may not be able to get an accurate reading of
what the height is. So on the radar's display it
may be saying that there's an object going from the
max height eighty thousand feet to the mid height of
sea level, but the object itself may just be a

(01:05:49):
hard to detect object that is not even itself moving
up and down.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Well, it seemed like there was fury. Yeah, there was
a lot of information on that. I thought. Also, I
just pulled this from the internet, you know, confirmed behavior.
The hawkeyes radar, along with other systems like the USS
Princeton Inspire radar confirmed the objects we're dropping from a

(01:06:16):
high altitude of sixty thousand feet, So it's not just
the USS Princeton. They had the Hawkeye up at twenty
five thousand feet or something over the testing when they
were doing the exercises.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Yeah, this would be a general problem of detecting blimps
aerostats with radar though, so it would affect the Hawkeye equally,
as as the software on the Princeton and the limits.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
All right down do you have a picture of this slash?

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Yeah, so five underscore LASH is a Department of Defense
cover photo from two thousand and six where they've finally
shown one of the LASH blimps. This is a larger
blimp known as the Airship six hundred that was developed
out of that prior DARPA Sentinel program. It has the

(01:07:13):
LASH pod underslung on that large blimp as well. These
LASH pods are on smaller tethered blimps that are able
to be deployed from the submarine. So the craft that
Fraver saw may not have looked exactly like that. That

(01:07:34):
was one of the airships that carried these LASH blimps.
I'd like to also add, since it came up during
Fraver's testimony he said that the object jammed his own.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
I meant to ask you about that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
Yes, So, as well as having this LASH littoral airborne
Sensor hyperspectral pod, these likely also had counter I SR pods. Now,
I don't have the actual specifications for the US's counter

(01:08:15):
I SR pods. When we discuss things later, I can
provide you with a variant used by the Israeli military
that has been publicly acknowledged. Uh, these existed at the.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
Time and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
Would have also been on one of these blimps. So
why would I believe that the gem the gems sound dangerous?

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
I mean to me, why would you know? When I
mentioned up to Kevin Day when I saw him in
person last year, and I mentioned to him that, you know,
it may have been that people are saying it may
have been a test out to see, he got really angry, so,
you know, putting people's lives at risk, you know, and
bs he was like really upset. So I just when

(01:09:05):
they jamming, when there was a jamming of radar, if
that indeed did happen, Uh, you know, what's the deal
with that?

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
I completely agree with Kevin Day. This was an entirely
reckless endeavor. If this is what occurred, whoever authorized it
should be stripped of all rank that they had. If
the commanding officer of the NIMTZ Task Group knew that
this was occurring and authorized one of his pilots to

(01:09:35):
be to have a prototype tested against him in this fashion,
it's incredibly reckless. I agree with Kevin Day. But reckless
is what they do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Well, I have to say the only part that I
don't want to say I agree with you. Okay, yeah,
you don't have I don't want to go there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
I'm just I'm just presenting my theory.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
I know, but I do want to say. The one
thing that has not made any sense that would fit
with what you're saying is that when they were talking
to upper level officers, they acted like it was nothing.
And to me, that's always been such a puzzle, like
why would they.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
And there were people ready to come aboard in such
a rapid fashion since they're off the coast of California.
They're having a helicopter with people wearing what I think
our Department of Energy suits come aboard the Nimits and
the Princeton and retrieve the tapes afterwards. Well that's not

(01:10:41):
something that you just like, oh, we just saw an
alien get on your helicopter and come out here. That's
they knew that these tapes were going to be produced.
They were already ready to get on that helicopter and
they were ready to fly out when their test was over. That,
as you said, the commanding officer seemed nonplussed about his

(01:11:05):
top pilot encountering a UFO is potentially because he knew
that that was going to happen, and he potentially had
authorized this dangerous test against his top pilot.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Now, if you had a chance, would you sit down
and try to explain this to David Fraverer and Alex Dietrich.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Oh, one hundred percent. The first time I came on
the LASH information which I had to dig up because
all of the articles about it have been memory hold,
They've all been deleted off the Internet. The only way
that you find information about the LASH is by going
back through Internet archive. As soon as I found the article,

(01:11:48):
I sent it to Alex Dietrich on X and tagged
her in the post that had this archived copy of
the article and said, Hey, found this article, think that
it might have been tested in San Diego at the time.
Can you make any comment? And I'd still be open
to discuss these technologies with them. I think by this

(01:12:12):
point they probably know about tethered balloons. I just don't
know if they know that tethered balloons were being tested
in San Diego back in two thousand and two, which
they most certainly were.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
And how do you know this as far it was
just through a FOYA. Did you do a Freedom of
Information Act?

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
No? Actually, I actually found these in documents that had
existed publicly at the time but have been since scrubbed
from the Internet.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
And do you have these documents?

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Yep, so you do, yeah, And I've shaed them on
my account.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
Okay, and I don't know if you'd like to share
them with me, but I will tell that anyone that
is listening to this through audio only, I will have
these images that we've talked about in the show notes.
All you have to do is click on that and
you'll see all the images we're talking about. So would
you be also open to the idea that this could

(01:13:14):
be an off world technology?

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
As I've said, I think that there is an extant
source of these craft that are better than anything we
can produce. If we've found something as far back as
sixteen hundred and we're trying to emulate it through these
decades and centuries of lighter than error programs in the military,

(01:13:39):
then there is an existing source outside of humanity. And
so maybe there's one craft that was found I think
they've said in archaeological contexts, but that also doesn't rule
out that some of these encounters may be those same
things to this day. I just think that we need

(01:14:03):
to have an understanding of the technological programs that our
own human race is developing and fielding before we make
the leap to extraterrestrial and aliens. So, if there is
a white cylindrical craft that is capable of being deployed

(01:14:27):
from under the water in two thousand and two that
we have in our own arsenal, I think that that
needs to be examined with the same seriousness as we're
examining claims that it could be extraterrestrial.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
What about the antennae or what appeared to be something
like antenna? Did you ever see that on any type
of prototype.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
Yeah, So he mentions that there were two what looked
like maybe p to's under the craft. They could be
attachment points for the tether. They could be the LASH
pod and the ISR pod itself. As I don't have

(01:15:14):
an actual visual representation of what he saw other than
some of the CGI renderings that other people have made
based on the testimony, I can't be sure, but both
of those things would have external visual appearances, the attachment
for the tether and the pods themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
Well, the one thing I'm glad to hear you say,
and duck Head, one of the regulars. Here.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
He keeps wanting you to show.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
Here's Star Wars toys, but I know you can't.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
You can't move them off the shelf.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
But anyway, they're all around. It's an obsession that had
to stop a couple of years ago because I ran
out of space.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
Well, I got to tell you, I do like the
State sales, and I did this to State Sales. And actually,
I have to say it's from a really famous family.
I mean, he's got big movies out there. And anyway,
they had I had their Star Wars toys. The name
is Eggers. Anyone knows he's a director. I had Star

(01:16:18):
Wars toys and a guy came. There was one toy
that he paid seven hundred dollars for without a blink
of an eye. And it's just it's so silly. I
think the whole thing is so silly. How because I'm,
you know, an antiquees guy, and anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
So an antiques lego guy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
So this is just a statement. There's no way they
had this tech back in the eighteen hundreds. What type
of what is the best tech that we had in
the eighteen hundreds, would you say.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
The Pasarola airship that existed in the sixteen hundreds, would have,
had a mentioned earlier, been better than any of the
tech that we had in the eighteen hundreds. As far
as the most advanced looking craft in the eighteen hundreds,
I'd probably say Daniluski's air bike. Imagine a big gas

(01:17:16):
bag of helium with a man on a bike slung
underneath it, and then two giant wings sprouting.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
Outside of the I've seen a graphic of that. I
know exactly what you're talking about. Boyd. Is that something
that I would never get on in a million Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
So imagine you're a farmer in eighteen ninety seven and
this crashes down in your field and you've never heard
of balloons or blimps or aerostats before in your life.
How do you make any sense of this thing that's
crashed out of the sky.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Yeah, well, all right, Before we close here, I'm just
going to ask you one other question here. What do
you think is the most mysterious unexplained UAPUFO case that
you've looked at.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
I have no idea what the red object that Jeff
Nucitelli described in the most recent hearing is. If someone
wants to put a prosaic technological explanation for a giant
red object coming out of the ocean. Go for it.

(01:18:25):
But I've that's unexplained to me.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
Yes, I do have. I will send you this.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
I do have a diver that was an extraordinary you
know what am I trying to say? He had over
fifteen thousand hours of underwater time and he had an
encounter with a cube but it was a gold cube.
But he was sixty miles off shore off the Baja,
and you know, sixty miles off shore and heap down

(01:18:56):
to four hundred feet and no other you know, this
thing was acting intelligently. It was really quite crazy. And
he had nothing to do.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Never have recordings at the time. He did.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
He did film at the whole time. Unfortunately, he's very
sick right now because I keep, you know, reaching out
to him, and unfortunately he's got cancer, not doing well.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
But he had my sympathies for anyone with cancer. I've
also gone through that several times myself, and oh it's
not terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
Yeah, So he has a twenty five hundred film said
he was looking through that. I was trying to get
him initiated to try to find this thing, and he
says he was so well now organized in all these
reels of film. He doesn't even know where to where
to look, but he supposed he did film at the
entire time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
If that ever comes forward, send it to me.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
Oh yeah, we have so many people that want to see.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
I think you have a couple of things to hang
me about afterwards, and one hundred percent send you everything
that I've got. Just remind me what we what we need.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
Okay, all right, well excellent, Well, thank you so much.
I don't see any recent questions here, so besides your
star Wars, so thank you all for being with us
tonight and trying to.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Do a little pen around the room for your fanis.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Oh there, okay, that'll make it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
Oh my, there's a couple there. There's a big Superstar
storer up there, and then there's a minifigure shelf there.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
Excellent.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Okay, all right, well, thanks so much and we'll see you.
Everyone will be back next week at Tuesday only and
with Thiago to Chetti and it should be a great show.
And that's about Brazil UFOs again, thanks so much for everyone,
and remember to keep your eyes to this The