So your dog bit you.. now what?

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Everybody welcome to a podcast for dog people.
I'm John and I'm Jamie and weare your personal dog experts.
We're here to help you betterunderstand your dogs in the wide
spectrum of behaviors theyexhibit, so join us on this
journey to learn everything.
Dog.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Today, we're gonna talk aboutdog bites.
That's why we titled this.

(00:20):
So your dog bit you.
Now what?
So you've gotten these textsbefore yes, of.
Black in my whole face thereyou've gotten these texts before
of.
Basically, it's almost alwaysclients who are not following
any of the guidance that you'vegiven them and it's resulted in
them getting bit by their dog.
Yes, what is kind of like yourinitial reaction because when it

(00:42):
comes to dog bites, a lot ofemotions are involved you get
that whole concept of biting thehand that feeds you and People.
It seems like the immediateknee jerk is I want to re-home
them.
That's typically how you findout about it as they say yeah,
do you know anybody that that islooking to do for a dog?
Because I want to re-homeWhatever the dog's name is,

(01:03):
because they hit, they just bitme and then they'll follow it up
with 13 photos of them gettingbit.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yep, as if it's your fault and they didn't follow
anything and it's also now myjob to re-home the dog.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about how this whole
thing goes down how this wholething goes down, how, how can we
be fair about it?
How can we look at itObjectively and really taken to
everything into consideration,look at what we might have done
wrong and then where do we gofrom here?
How do we stop this fromhappening again?
How do we feel safe in our ownhome with a dog and maybe your

(01:34):
dog hasn't bit you.
Maybe you're concerned aboutgetting bit.
Maybe you're a pet professionalwho, whether it be a, you're a
pet sitter, another dog traineror something like that, like
what can you do in thesesituations To know what's
happening, what's gonna happen,or even to to advise your
clients a little better whenthese situations do happen
Because this is probably themost difficult thing that we

(01:55):
deal with in in the dog trainingworld is when it hits the fan
and it's like where do we gofrom here?
So if you want to take it over,let me know what your thoughts
are in this.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, so I think, right off the bat, going along
what you said before about, likewhat they first say to me when
this happens, is the otherphrase that they'll say is it
came out of nowhere, which isnot always, but it's usually the
first thing that is said andthat's what said.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
That's not what's factual.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes and yeah.
So with what I do, because whatI do is basically therapy for
dogs I know that that's not true.
I know that it doesn't come outof anywhere if your dog is
struggling and is showingbehaviors that are questionable
or they've been to negative.
Reinforcement training or averse of training a verse of

(02:48):
training, then it's not out ofnowhere Right off the bat.
It's not out of nowhere.
You've seen these behaviorsbefore and that's why you did x,
y and z, or that's why you'vedone the training, or why you
were concerned to be so.
It wasn't out of nowhere whenwe run our classes.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
When I do our body language section of our classes
are in person classes I alwaysdescribe it as like a ladder and
the dogs can escalate.
So they'll see behaviors thatthey seem prior, that never
escalated to a bite for whateverreason.
And the further you push a dog,the further you, the more you
make them uncomfortable and themore you ignore those steps on
the ladder, the higher on theladder they're gonna go and it's

(03:24):
gonna escalate and escalate.
So that's why I guess it'sperceived as Coming out of
nowhere, because I've been inthis scenario so many times and
XYZ happens and we've neveractually gotten to a bite.
And now all of a sudden theybit me and in reality that your
dog is the dog is working up theladder of escalation.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, 100%.
And another point is that dogsdon't bite for no reason.
They don't, it's just not whatthey do.
They they are very, very nonconfrontational creatures,
unless they are pushed tofeeling like they are Constantly
in a fight or flight.
And then we have a family issue.
Right, there's so much thatgoes into this.
So let's first go into the IanDunbar scale I think that's

(04:08):
where I want to start and then Iwill work away from that and go
through all the scenarios, whatthey mean and what your future
looks like.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, that's a good place to start.
So if you're unfamiliar withthe Ian Dunbar scale, it's by dr
Ian Dunbar.
It is a bite scale.
It's used in the professionalworld for assessing bites, in
assessing Basically howadaptable or how safe this dog
is to be out in public, whetheror not it poses a risk to public
health.
So it's an assessment of theseverity of biting problems

(04:37):
based on objective evaluation ofwound pathology.
So what does that mean?
That means that basically, bylooking at an image of the wound
, if you show us a picture ofthe wound, we can tell you what
level of a bite it is and then,based on that level, you kind of
have a little bit more guidanceon whether or not this is a
dangerous dog or this was anactive defense.
So it's, it's on a level onethrough six, one being very

(05:00):
minimal damage whatsoever.
Six being victim is dead.
So it's, it goes to fullspectrum of possibilities.
So level one is obnoxious oraggressive behavior but no skin
contact by teeth.
So we see that a lot withpuppies.
You might see this with areally immature dog on leash
who's just jumping and jumpingover stimulated.
The only difference betweenlevel one, level two, is that

(05:21):
skin contact by the teethhappens, but it's important to
note that on a level two, skincontact by teeth but no skin
puncture.
So the skin is not broken rightthe skin may have like an
abrasion it.
It allows for one skin nick,less than one tenth of an inch
deep, and Slight bleeding causedby forward or lateral movement
of teeth against skin, but novertical punch punctures.

(05:43):
So forward or lateral movementof the teeth against skin is.
Picture a dog snaps at yourhand and at the same time their
teeth are making contact withyou.
You're pulling your hand away,you're creating that lateral
movement and scraping theirteeth against you.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Whereas if you didn't move your hand, that probably
would have happened right, itprobably would not have broken
skin.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Level two is what we see a lot in a shelter setting,
because you have overstimulateddogs.
Dogs that are just stressed out, they're reacting.
Other dogs they're.
They're jumping at the leash,trying to bite the leash.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
They actually prime for.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Right, ridiculous, and they're not looking to
actually bite you.
Yeah, your hand or whatever hasjust gotten in the way.
Yes, so now we escalate from alevel two to a level three.
One to four punctures from asingle bite with no puncture
deeper than half the length ofthe dog's canine tooth, maybe
elastration in a singledirection caused by the victim
pulling their hand away, ownerpulling the dog away or

(06:36):
whoever's on the other end ofleash pulling on the dog, or
gravity we see that with littledogs who jump on and they latch
on and then they fall.
Yeah, so level three it's about, typically, where shelters and
rescues are going to draw theline.
They'll allow it and they won'tmove forward.
And then moving forward to be alevel four.
One to four punctures from asingle bite with at least one

(06:56):
puncture deeper than half thelength of the dogs canine teeth
May also have deep bruisingaround the wound, as in the dog
held for X amount of seconds andbore down, or Lacerations in
both directions, which istypically seen when the dog will
shake, like to do when theyhave pre-drive and they're
trying to kill whatever it isthey're biting.
Level four is where you start toget really uncomfortable with
what the intention was behindthe bite.

(07:17):
And then level five is levelfive and six are just not safe
dogs to have out and about.
Level five is a multiple biteincident with at least two level
four bites, or multiple attackincident with at least one level
four Bite in each.
So the difference, you know dogbite and a dog attack.
A dog bite is one bite incident, a dog attack is one.

(07:38):
It'll be one bite incident butthen the dog continues to come
after and Attempt to at leastland additional bites.
So that's the difference in abite in an attack, level five,
level six, level six, of course,like I said before, victim dead
.
Level five and level six ofdangerous dogs.
Those are not dogs that youwould want to adopt out, those
are dogs that when we're workingwith a client we need to have a

(07:58):
serious.
Obviously level six forgetabout.
I mean that's going to be.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
I won't even get a judge will decide immediately
with the fate of the animal isat that point.
But a level five bite, it's aproblem, it's a serious problem
and that's when that thatdifficult conversation has to
happen.
So that is our Ian Dunbar dogbite scale.
It's kind of it's like the theBible, the Quran of Dog bites
and assessing thempathologically.
Yeah, now you can continuewhere you are now.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Let's get into it and say, okay, so what do these
levels mean, right?
So Obviously, the one and twothat's like that puppy play
behavior that could even be likea snap, like a warning bite,
which I appreciate as a trainer.
People are like my dog snappedin me and I'm like you're lucky,
that's what you got right,especially if you were kind of

(08:46):
provoking the bite in general.
But we want to look at biteinhibition.
I always say did the punishmentfit the crime?
Did what you did or thescenario, whatever was going on,
did the punishment that you gotfrom your dog fit the crime
that you committed?

Speaker 1 (09:03):
right.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
And this goes for dog-on-dog as well.
For an example, puppy is goingafter an older sibling dog.
Over and over and over again,the older dog is growling at the
puppy, letting the puppy no goaway, showing teeth.
Every single Communication signthat this older dog can give
the puppy is they are giving andthe puppy is is, over and over

(09:25):
and over again, ignoring it.
And then the dog snaps nothing.
And then the dog actually landsa bite but does not break skin.
A lot of people will call mewith this scenario and say, oh
my god, my older dog bit mypuppy.
And I always say, you know,give me this scenario, how did
it all play out?
And once we get into it, I'mlike okay, so I just heard all
of that.
That sounds completely normalto me, like as a trainer, like

(09:48):
no, this is proper communicationand the only way for the puppy
to learn is by the consequenceand the communication from the
older dog.
And the older dog was verytolerant, very communicative and
did it perfectly and did notbreak skin, right, yes, but they
bit, yes, and the puppy was notlearning from all the other

(10:10):
warnings.
So this is what needs to happen.
But now let's say that the dogthe puppy was now.
This was actually a scenariothat I had as a client.
I always use it as an examplebecause it really kind of shook
me as a trainer too.
I was like, okay, we have adangerous dog here.
Where the older dog was on thecouch, the new puppy simply
walked by the couch, didn't evencome on the couch, and the

(10:33):
older dog actually attacked thepuppy multiple bites.
That crime was not warranted.
That did not finish.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
That did not.
Punishment wasn't warranted.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yes, it did not fit the scenario.
It made no sense.
So a lot of what we talk aboutas trainers is chemical
imbalances and what we'redealing with.
So that dog truly did have achemical imbalance going on.
That dog had been through a lotof trauma, a lot of abuse prior
to getting adopted by thisfamily and they got a puppy and
they shouldn't have and that wasone of the first conversations

(11:03):
that we had, because they calledme after getting the puppy and
there are so many things that wecan do as a family to be
proactive and make sure thatthese things don't happen.
So we're not setting up anybodyto fail.
That older dog was doing okaybefore the puppy showed up.
So it's going through thescenario and what kind of
transpired and how it happened.
So getting a snap or a bite isnot the worst thing in the world

(11:26):
once we understand what thecontext was.
So am I explaining thatcorrectly?

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, I just wanna throw in that the Dumbbar bite
scale is only for dog on humanpathologies.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
I was just using that as an example.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
No, I just wanna make sure nobody was gonna get
confused by that?

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yes, so, okay.
So let's use a human example.
Let's say you are touching yourdog's paw and they bite you to
the point where you havemultiple punctures and that was
the first time that everhappened.
That does not fit right.
There are so many other thingsthat your dog can do to portray

(12:04):
to you that they areuncomfortable.
Now my question as a trainer ishave they done that and we miss
the signs?
That happens quite a bit.
I have many, many clients thatcome to me and they cannot
identify when their dog isstressed out, whether it's from
them, another dog, anotherperson they are unaware.
They think that their dog iscompletely fine.

(12:26):
And it's actually kind ofastonishing to me as a trainer
that it is 2023 and we are at apoint where people really don't
understand their dogs yet.
They are almost clueless and itscares me really.
It does that I'm like literallywalking through them in a
scenario.
Your dog is really not okay.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
You need to move them back and they've probably put
their dog in that situationmultiple times, and you're like,
how many times has that almostescalated when I wasn't here to
witness it and to stop it?

Speaker 2 (12:53):
And they got lucky.
They really did so.
Learning your dog is number one.
The other part I wanna bring upis training aspects.
Right, people?
I had a call today.
Someone was saying that theirdog has been through a ton of
training and it's a really goodtrainer and the dog hasn't been
fixed yet.

(13:13):
And the dog keeps going afterthe older dog and that she's the
problem.
In reality, she's giving everycue in this book to have this
younger dog leave her alone.
And now the mom's so upset thatshe keeps biting him in the
face and I'm like he's got like20 pounds on her.
They're both on the smaller endand I asked what kind of
training they were going through.

(13:34):
And it was a first of trainingand we cannot be shocked that
our dogs are having aggressivetendencies or reactive
tendencies when we're using fireto fight fire.
It's like saying your kid can'tyell at you when all you do is
yell at them.
It's just when you meet firewith fire.

(13:55):
You're never gonna de-escalatea situation, you're never gonna
fix anything to be positive andthere's gonna be no emotional
regulation in your household.
So if we have constant stressand we're rough on our dogs,
right If you are correcting yourdog, either with your hand,
your body, a prong collar, ashock collar, and you are

(14:16):
confused as to why you aregetting bit.
Your answer is right there wehave to move away from these
types of things if we want ourdogs to be behaviorally sound.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, it's like you shove somebody and you don't
expect them to hit you back.
I mean you're inflicting pain.
It's unrealistic Right.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
And a lot of people say well, it's a dog, it should
respect me.
That's the number one thingthat we hear, and it's mutual
respect.
If you want an awesomerelationship with your dog, a
dog who's behaviorally sound,that loves you unconditionally,
you have to meet them halfway,and if you don't, you are going
to get a dog who is snippy anddoesn't wanna be around you and

(14:56):
will bite you.
So it always comes down to mydog bit me.
I wanna re-home Now.
This is probably the singlemost thing that will literally
make my eye twitch and I have toalways ask how did we get here?

(15:17):
What has transpired over theyears?
And a lot of people wannaignore that, they wanna take
their own responsibility out ofit.
And if you are someone who hasdone this, I get it, because we
are humans and we are imperfect.
But we as a society do need tostart taking responsibility for
what we do to our dogs and whathappens afterwards.
If you and again it goes backto like our families right,

(15:43):
nobody made you get a dog,nobody made you had kids it
would be very looked down uponfor somebody to give up their
child.
Right, it's illegal.
You're not allowed to do that.
And there's a reason whyBecause you made the decision to
procreate and bring this childinto the world and now it is
your job to parent them and makethem a normal person in society
.
And it's the same for our dogs,or at least I wish that we had

(16:07):
the same understanding that thisis where we should be moving as
a society.
You bring a dog home.
Nobody made you do that, youwere not forced into this.
You brought this dog here andit is your job, moving forward,
to make sure that they have thebest life possible.
All of their needs are met.
If you go the route of negativereinforcement, aversive
training, that is a choice thatyou have made.

(16:30):
Your dog did not make thatchoice.
They did not ask for that.
So if they are put through that, the responses and what you are
dealt with afterwards cannot beheld on their shoulders point
blank.
So if we are at a point whereyour dog is biting you because
of the training that you haveput them through and now they
have trauma or they have achemical imbalance with PTSD

(16:51):
because of that, it is againyour responsibility now to fix
it.
We all make mistakes, all of us.
Okay, you know even stuff inthe past.
Like John and I have saidthings that are incorrect when
we first started.
But it is our job to nowre-inform the public of hey, we
were misinformed.
Then we did more research.
We know that's not correct.
I have changed as a trainer fromthe very beginning.

(17:12):
I do things very differentlynow than when I first started
out and I admit that right.
That doesn't take away fromwhat I do now.
It just shows that I'm willingto grow, and this goes for all
people.
As a dog parent, you need to beable to admit I did this wrong
and I do, thankfully.
I have a lot of clients thatcome to me and say I wanna move
away from this, and I know thatthis is a problem what we've

(17:35):
done in the past.
But then you have to also beokay with the amount of time and
effort that it takes to comeback from it, and I know a lot
of people aren't.
But you cannot re-home a dog orsurrender a dog to a shelter
and just let them have theirfate up to somebody that doesn't

(17:55):
even know them.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
It's what a bite history.
It's not gonna end well.
I think we really need to lookat a dog bite situation as
something coming to a head.
It's not the end of a road, butit's when we need to start
doing some forensics andfiguring out what's really going
on here.
Your dog chances are.

(18:19):
You've been living safely withyour dog for X amount of time
and this has escalated to thatpoint and I guess the best way
to put it is it's not the end ofthe road.
It's just time to take thingsseriously and really figure out
what's going on.
And if what you say is true thatthere was no indicators that

(18:39):
you're aware of you're prettysavvy, you know your dog inside
and out and there were noindicators then there's other
things that we need to take alook at.
Is there a medical concerngoing on?
Is the dog injured?
Yep, utis, especially in olderdogs, can really change, alter
their mental status.
Then look at antecedents, whichare things that are going to

(19:01):
happen.
Before the incident, were therelandscapers?
Is there a construction goingon next door?
Did you have a bunch of company?
What things preceded this biteincident that could have
contributed to your dog skippingseveral steps on the ladder and
that's where you really need toput on your forensic set.
I mean, that's immediatelywhere we go when someone sends

(19:24):
you that dreadful text or aphone call, we're immediately
like okay, let's pick apart thesituation.
What happened?

Speaker 2 (19:30):
You have to play detective.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
You need to, because it is very, very rare that dogs
bite for no reason 100%.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
So do you want to go through the topics of bites and
how they can kind of happen andwhat that tells us?

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, I think I made some notes because I wanted to
go through them.
First thing is not the mostcommon, I would say not
respecting space or fear, sohusbandry type of stuff cutting
nails, releasing anals, bathing,touching them in places that

(20:08):
they don't want to be touched,not respecting them when they're
like sleeping or they'recomfortable somewhere.
Some dogs are not that happy golucky dog that you're going to
see that like belly rubs andthat's.
They thrive on that.
Some dogs are anxious rightfrom birth or they've been
through trauma and they're notlooking for that.

(20:30):
That's not what makes them feelsafe right now.
They just want to feel likethey can trust you.
Right, this could be a dogyou've had for a really long
time.
It could be a new adoption.
It could be really anything.
Some dogs they'll get thecharacteristic of being grumpy.
There's a reason why that'shappening, if we really want to
dive into it.
I had someone today that saidthat the older dog was grumpy.
Her brother had died a coupleyears ago and she's been

(20:54):
depressed ever since.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Think of your dog as the old man from up.
He had a lot to be grumpy about.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yes, he did right.
So if your dog is experiencinganxiety or sadness or
uncomfortability on a dailybasis, that's going to take a
toll on them.
A lot of dogs that come to me,they're not sleeping.
It comes out a couple sessionsand, oh yeah, they're really bad
sleep.
So when is your dog actuallysleeping?

Speaker 1 (21:19):
And lack of sleep literally will change the
pathology of the brain andreally make them act differently
.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, we got to take stress hormones into account.
So many, so many things, whatthey've been through, what their
daily life looks like.
So if they're uncomfortable andthey're not a dog like I
thought oh, they're veryindependent, they're not a
snuggler there's a reason why.
There is a reason why.
So if you really do want todive into that, reach out to us
and we can pick out apart thesituation and really give you

(21:48):
the lowdown on your dog, becausethere is a rhyme and a reason
for all of these things.
If their needs aren't being met, like if they're hungry, right,
You're just saying, like,what's really going on?
Pick it apart.
If they're uncomfortablebecause they're hungry all the
time and you're notacknowledging that that could
really set them off too, right?
So if you are not respectingyour dog's warning signs

(22:12):
growling, whale, eyes, lookingaway, shifting, walking away
from you and we're just makingthem do these things and endure,
you know, being fondled all thetime they're going to reach a
limit, especially if they'regetting corrected, for you know,
getting away or growling orwhatever that happens a lot.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Especially with children in the picture.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah.
So like a kid comes over andpets a dog and they the dog
growls, most dog parents willyell at the dog.
And, believe me, I get it.
I am a trainer and even I gettriggered sometimes when I'm
around because it's your firstgut reaction to correct, because
that's how we were all raised.

(22:53):
Um, you know, I was born in thenineties that's even not that
long ago and you know my parentsare fabulous, but that's what
they were taught to.
And it gets pot, it gets, it'sget passed down.
So you have to mentally moveaway from that and retrain your
brain to not act that way.
It is hard.
I am not saying this is easy,but if this is something that

(23:15):
you have been doing and you wantto get it, you have to learn to
untrigger yourself and remaincalm.
But when we yell at them aroundkids for petting them, we're
silencing them and we're alsomaking kids a negative, because
I get yelled at every singletime a kid touches me.
So you are, you are literallysetting them up to fail longterm

(23:36):
.
So a lot of people say, oh, dogbites kid, and I'm like, okay,
what happened prior?
Cause I know it wasn't out ofnowhere, I know it, um.
So that's, that's the fear, notrespecting space type of
situation that we're looking for.
So if you were ignoring thosesigns and pushing them, um, and
you got bit, the proof is in thepudding right there.

(23:56):
You have to respect those signsand if and if there are things
that need to happen, likecutting nails, I get it those
things need to happen.
We need to desensitize andcountercation through that
positively.
We're not forcing them, um, toget to the other side, right.
So it's, it's respect and thentraining all at the same time,
um and there's tools out there.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
A properly desensitized muzzle will keep
you safe.
Keep them safe, yes.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Muzzles are fabulous.
A lot of people get.
I mean, they get it.
It looks like the Bain mask.
I understand, but we have toalso change the way that our
brains look at these muscles.
They are a safety mechanism, um, for our dogs to say safe.
I always tell people musclesare not for people and other
dogs, they are for the dog thatis wearing it, to keep them out
of harm's way.
Um, because they have been putin situations that they they

(24:43):
willingly, they can't handle.
Um.
So the next part is um,guarding.
Guarding is a big one, um.
What I I like to explain topeople is when your dog is is
guarding something, whether youbelieve it's valuable or not, it
does not matter.
If your dog thinks that theitem, the person, the furniture,
anything, the food is valuableenough, they go into a different

(25:08):
state of thinking.
Your relationship this, this iswhat really people have all
such a hard time understanding.
You could have the bestrelationship with your dog.
Your dog could love you to thenines.
You be their person, but ifthey are guarding something, I
almost want you to picture yourface vanishes, your relationship
goes out the window and you arejust a vessel to them that is

(25:31):
going to take the highest valueditem from them and they will do
anything to keep it.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
And they're mind.
You're threatening them.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yes.
You're threatening theirresource Right and they're
trying to respond accordingly,if you get bit because the dog
is guarding, I know well andgood that you ignored all of the
signs.
And again, if your dog isguarding and they get sent to a
verse of training, they willsuppress those signs.
The growling the growling, thelunging, the whale eyes, they.

(26:00):
And that's when people say, oh,my dog just snapped, and I've
seen it.
I've seen dogs go zero to ahundred.
So I'm I don't think people arelying, but I know that the
training that was used prior isthe result of that.
Dogs do not come out the wombjust doing that.
They just don't.
It's not in their nature, it'snot in their, their makeup.
So, again, we have to respectthe signs and check our ego at

(26:23):
the door.
When your dog is guarding, a lotof people like, oh, they're
going to respect me, I need totake the item now.
They're going to think they'regoing to be able to do it
whenever abort, abort that.
Throw it out the window.
You need to find a behavioralpositive reinforcement trainer
that will help you work throughthis.
So, again, it's respecting thesigns, not pushing our dogs to
bite us and then fixing theproblem.

(26:45):
Okay, most of the time when adog is guarding, it'll be a one
bite and a release.
And go back to the item, whichagain falls under the Ian Dunbar
scale of being appropriate.
Another one is redirection,which most people don't know

(27:08):
about and it's very, very, verycommon.
So a redirection is you gettinga bite that essentially was not
for you.
So an example is you're walkingyou're really reactive dog on
leash.
They see another dog, the dog'sbarking back at them.
They're barking at the dog andinstead of landing a bite on the

(27:29):
dog which they physically can'tbecause the dog is too far away
they get so overwhelmed andthey hit the red zone, they hit
their threshold and theyactually redirect that energy
back on you.
Who is holding the leash orsomeone in the vicinity.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
And humans do this too.
How many people?
Anytime you see you watch cops,you watch some things on TV,
people get angry and put theirfist to drywall.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
What did the drywall do to them?

Speaker 1 (27:54):
It's.
You're redirecting your angertowards something else because
you can't outlet it on what youactually wanna outlet on and it
cannot be destroyed.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
It's there.
It needs to go somewhere.
So until your dog understandshow to self-regulate their
emotions and bring themselvesout of the red zone without
hurting anybody, I, as a trainer, cannot expect any different
from them.
I tell people this all the timeif we don't do the work and we
don't help them, I will neverdemand better.
I can't.

(28:22):
It's not fair.
It's like having a person go toone therapy session and expect
them to fix their entire world.
It's not how this works.
So if you have a dog that isredirecting, this is probably, I
would say, one of the mostdangerous bites, because you are
not expecting it, there are nowarning signs, because it's not
really directed at you.

(28:42):
Another variation of redirectionis like in a dog fight.
If you're trying to break up adog fight and you get your hand
in there, they're in fight orflight, so parts of the brain
are ignited and other parts areshut down.
So it's not working properlylogistically.
They are in survival mode andthat's the only thing that

(29:03):
matters.
So if a dog, two dogs, arefighting and you go to grab the
collar of the dog, they will.
Most of it, a lot of dogs willdo this this is like.
This is extremely common.
They will whip back towards youand get you on the hand or the
leg because that's the closestthing to them.

(29:23):
They just think that anotherdog is around them trying to
come for them and hurt them.
So they are in defense mode.
They don't see you, hear you,nothing.
So that is extremely common.
How many clients have come toyou with broken hands Cause they
stick their hand in a dog fight?

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, and we see it in the shelter setting Always.
It's important to know justfrom an anatomical perspective.
The dogs have a significantlysmaller prefrontal cortex or
frontal cortex or frontal lobethan humans do, and that's kind
of the part of the brain thatacts as a filter, like when you

(29:59):
have those intrusive thoughtsand it's like you don't say that
thing, don't do that thing.
Dogs do not have, and mostother mammals do not have, the
ability to filter those impulsesthe way humans do, and we're
kind of holding them to the samestandard that we're at.
We have a fully developedprefrontal cortex.
They do not.
They have just enough to get by.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yep.
So we have to take all thisinto account when we look and
we're trying to play detectiveof how this happened.
What was the other one?
I had Four, oh low biteinhibition.
If your dog never learned howhard is too hard and they get
upset for any of the top reasonsor just over-stimulation, they

(30:45):
don't understand that they bityou too hard.
They are unaware of that.
So they and that's again.
It's not always on us, but ifwe're noticing that prior and
this is bumping up the scalelike always, like they're
getting over, moreoverstimulated, they're more
stressed, like even in a fearresponse, like the first one I

(31:05):
went over.
I have a dog that we worked withback in the day who bit his
child sibling in the facebecause there was a thunderstorm
and the dog was on tracidone,which is a sedative.
It makes you feel kind of loopyand drunk, so you're off kilter
.
He was hiding behind therocking chair.
She came looking for him and heshe moved the rocking chair and

(31:26):
he lunged at her face.
It was unintentional, he didn'tmean to do it.
He loves that little girl.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Oh, there's a child in the home.
Yes, I thought.
When you said sibling, Ithought you meant another dog.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
No, no, no, I said human sibling, I think I did,
and you know, mom and dad wereso upset.
I was like listen when you tellme what happened.
It does make sense.
So I would not say this dog isdangerous.
There are ways to avoid thisand fix this right.
So I guess that leads into ushow do we fix it Right, Right,

(31:55):
but yeah, I mean, how do you?

Speaker 1 (31:56):
fix it.
You need to.
No, I have nothing else to addand I don't mean to hijack here.
Oh good, but step one identify.
Identify a reason, try and finda pattern of predictability.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, Absolutely so.
That's usually where we start.
The only other thing that I dofirst is go over what John was
talking about before.
Medically, where are we at?
Are they fine?
Did things change in the home?
Are they stressed?
Is your dog an anxious dog?
Have they shown this type ofbehavior prior?

(32:32):
What are we doing in thissituation?
How are we correcting thatproblem?
Currently, so many things right.
I really get down to it, butreally, are our needs being met?
Because a dog who feels thattheir needs are not being met
can be in a very differentmental state than a dog who is.

(32:53):
So that's right off the bat.
I definitely want to get to thesituational stuff.
I want to see okay, like planthis all out for me, but how
also, is your dog on a dailybasis?
Because they're alreadystarting at like a seven or an
eight.
That additional situation isgonna throw them right over the
edge and it's gonna seem likeit's out of nowhere.
But if your dog is hanging onby a thread on a daily basis,

(33:15):
that is a huge problem.
Yes, I'm back to you.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
What that was all I had on that topic.
Okay, so then you know, I saididentifying the cause, and then
where do you?
I don't want to get into givingspecific advice, because that
would just be cookie cutter andthere's another study.
I'm saying another study.
I haven't gotten to the firststudy.
There's another study that wasrecently published a few days

(33:43):
ago that talks about like,basically just how like
multifaceted aggression is andhow it comes from different
parts of the brain and it's notjust a one size fits all.
There's so many differentcauses for it and that's what
you need a professional.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, yep, I think the other thing I want to
mention is again, if your doghas had an abusive past trauma,
neglect, genetic chemicalimbalance, dealing with a lot of
anxiety and again justconstantly stressed Like their
cortisol levels are higher thanthey should be on a daily level

(34:19):
that is something that can befixed and I think a lot of
people don't understand that oryou know you say medication and
people get really uncomfortablewith that.
But it's like I always say ifsomeone's hesitant and I am I
would put money on the fact thattheir dog is really struggling
with chemical imbalance.
I would always say if your bestfriend or your spouse came to

(34:42):
you and said I feel reallydepressed and anxious lately, I
really think I need to go find atherapist and get on some
medication, would you ever tellthem that's a bad idea?

Speaker 1 (34:52):
No, never.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
And you would never make that decision for them,
right?
If they are an adult humanbeing, who can you know?
Think cognitively about what'sgoing on in their life and
they're realizing there's aproblem.
Your dog cannot speak forthemselves.
They cannot say yes, I have achemical imbalance, I'm having a
serious problem here.

(35:15):
It is our job to see wherethey're at and really understand
that.
If we can help them, why wouldwe not want to?
Because if they are stressed ona daily level and they are in
situations that they can'thandle and that you feel like
you're walking on eggshells, howbadly do you think they feel?
Right, they should not befeeling that on a daily basis.

(35:37):
It is not healthy, it is notsafe for everybody in the home
and it just increases stress foreverybody.
So that can be fixed and thatcan be worked on.
It does not need to be a lifesentence that they need
medication.
That's a huge misconception.
A lot of people had peopletoday come and I talked to them
about their dog and they're likeis there a test?
No, there is no test to prove achemical imbalance,

(35:58):
unfortunately.
But we can, you know, obviouslylook through behavior and see
what we have going on if ourdogs are landing bites
consistently, are guardingconsistently, have a lot of
trauma in their past, are reallyfeeling charged, negatively
charged, on a daily basis, haveexperienced loss like that other
dog who has had lost herbrother, who she really loved.

(36:20):
Dogs can grieve and mourn hardand it's not extremely common.
A lot of dogs tend to kind ofbounce back quickly.
But I've had my fair share.
Our good friend now she startedout as a training client but
she's actually one of our verydear friends.
Her daughter's dog experiencedher mother's dog's loss.

(36:40):
They spent weeks together At atime and when the older one
passed he mourned and until wefixed that chemical imbalance he
was miserable, biting the dadand they were like what's
happening?
Like it was wild.
And once we actually fixed itand she was like I had no idea

(37:01):
that he was struggling so badlyand until we fixed it.
Now you know they have a babyon the way and they're so
excited and he is in such a goodplace and they are just so
thankful that we figured thatout earlier.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, yeah, and it's.
There is.
Like you said, there's no testto see if your dog needs to go
on some type of anti-anxietymedication, but it kind of
becomes a process of elimination.
We say, okay, there's nomedical ailments that we can
identify there.
You know, we've looked for areasoning and why they're acting

(37:34):
this way.
We've ruled everything out.
Let's try one.
There's no harm in trying.
Let's try it.
And if you see improvement byabout four weeks on a short
acting or a long acting druglike fluoxetine, which is a
Prozac, then yeah, you've justidentified that your dog
probably needs this and some mayvery well need to be on it for

(37:57):
the rest of their life and it'snot that big of a deal.
Something like 12% of humansare on some kind of SSRI or
anti-depressant and most of themare gonna be on it for the rest
of their lives.
Some people whether it be justtrauma that they get pass down
genetically, that theyexperience trauma will actually

(38:19):
change the structure of yourbrain in the way that it works
and happens just, you know,happens to our dogs, and most
dogs will go through more traumain their first years of life If
they end up in the sheltersystem.
They're getting abused.
They are involved in dogfighting, you know.
You don't know what happened tothem prior.
If somebody changed you up andbeat you every day, chances are

(38:40):
you're gonna have to be on SSRIsfor the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
If you get out of that situation, and we wouldn't
expect stellar behavior fromthat person ever.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
As a society, you would expect to be given grace
and for whatever reason and likeI said before, we have a fully
functional prefrontal cortex Forwhatever reason we're holding
dogs to a higher standard andsaying I don't want a dog.
That's on medication,phloxatine's something like.
Depending on the size and aslong as you stay away from the

(39:09):
chewable variety you're lookingat.
15 bucks a month tops threecups of coffee from Starbucks to
level your dog out and givethem a better quality of life.
I don't understand why peopleget so.
Personally offended.
And so emotionally involved inthat kind of decision when it's
just well, it's the alternative.

(39:30):
You're gonna euthanize your dogor send him to the shelter?

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Why don't you give them a fighting chance?
I have some clients that arevery hesitant from the beginning
and I'm not forcing you to doanything, but I am not going to.
One, put your dog through whatwe need to to get to the end.
Right now.
This is gonna go a lot slowerbecause I'm not gonna put them
in a situation where they'regonna hurt themselves or

(39:54):
somebody else.
They cannot handle it right.
And two, I'm not gonna force iton you, but we need to find a
happy medium where we can expectour dogs to grow right.
So what it is is most peoplethat are hesitant and they
finally go with it because theyunderstand that there is a

(40:15):
problem.
They try to rush the processbecause they want the dog off of
the medication almostimmediately.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
And it's hard for me.
I'm a vet with this, this iswhat I do on a daily basis, so
for me I'm like they're soworried about the dog coming off
the medication, but thenthey're also so angry that the
dog is acting a certain way andthey're not putting two and two
together that the medicationcould be completely dependent on

(40:44):
the problem being fixed.
If your dog has a chemicalimbalance and their stress
hormones are higher than theyshould be, they will not be able
to act appropriately in a givensituation.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
The other way around.
The solution to the problemmedication might be a
prerequisite to solve thatproblem so you're saying yes,
that's exactly what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
So if your dog is in a place where they can't
function, the problem.
I can't fix a chemicalimbalance by waving a wand, and
neither can you.
So, and I could train this dogforever.
And people say, oh, I see nodifference, I see no difference,
I see no difference.
I'm like I know there's nodifference because they are not

(41:25):
able to take any of the positivetraining that you have thus
changed with working with me,because when they are in fight
or flight, they legitimatelycan't hear you.
You are nothing to them, sothey cannot make like.
If you are in fight or flightand you seriously think that you
are in danger, any positivitythat's in the background you

(41:45):
don't hear, or even it doesn'tstick.
It's almost like it didn'thappen.
I use this example the otherday because you remember this I
was having a really rough day,like I was having a panic attack
.
I was in a really rough shapeand I didn't remember part of my
day.
I don't remember.

(42:07):
It's like when you drive andyou're upset and you don't know
how you got home, your braindoes not remember what happened
because it was in some placeelse.
So if you're putting all thiseffort, into all these training
methods that I'm telling you todo to change your dogs
reactivity or aggressivetendencies, and they're not in a
place to absorb it.
They will not.

(42:27):
It'll be a waste of time foryou and it'll put them through
more traumatic situationswithout being able to handle
them.
So a lot of people ask me if Ireally truly think a dog needs
medication.
That's the only way they'll saycan we do without it?
And I'll say no, I won't do itand that's fine.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
That's if you believe the dog needs it.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yes, if there's a dog who I believe, like CBD, could
help.
Or there's other things that wecould do to reduce anxiety,
like simple things, like don'tgo to the dog park anymore.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
if there's just a blatant cause to it, then yeah,
no then we eliminate thosethings and we make sure their
needs are being met.
That's why I always go to theneeds being met first and like
what their day looks like.
But if they really have achemical imbalance and they're
stressed all the time in themost calm situation, that is a
problem and that needs to bechanged for them to succeed and
to be happy.
And that's the goal.

(43:18):
We have a happy and healthy dog.
We have a non-dangerous dog.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
That's really what it comes down to, we have a
predictable dog.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
We have a predictable dog.
If our dog is happy and healthy, you will not see barking,
lunging, growling, biting,negative guarding like you won't
see it.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yeah, you won't.
And like, even if you arealways gonna have that dog, that
if you touch their paws they'regonna bite you, at least you
know, if you touch their pawsthey're gonna bite you, yep.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
You got exactly that's predictable.
You got exactly what they toldyou they're gonna do.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
That's all we can ask .
Is that the outcome is gonna bepredictable?

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Like Pudge Like.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Pudge Like our own dog she is genetically.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
she's a hoarding dog, so her parents were cousins.
They were not supposed to matetogether.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
She is one of 276 dogs in a house that all started
from seven dogs, so highly,highly inbred.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yes.
So we know that cutting hernails is a huge trigger for her
Huge and to this day we workwith her so much on making it
the most positive thing in theworld and we've made great
strides.
But I still know that she maybite me and if she did I would
never blame her.
I would never.

(44:29):
I would never get upset withher.
I would never correct her forit because I'm doing something
that she truly believes thatcould kill her.
I believe she has the fear inher eyes when it happens
sometimes and I feel so bad sowe stop and we give her a
breather and then we do like anail a day type of thing.
We don't wanna overstress her,but we know that about her, we

(44:53):
know that.
And we say to our toddler he'sthree, sometimes he can be rough
on her and we tell himconsistently to leave her alone.
Don't jump on the bed like that.
You're gonna scare her.
And I've told him how manytimes don't blow in the face if
she bites you.
I won't be mad at her.
I will not, because she givesyou every warning in the book.
And again, he's three.
I understand he's a child, buthe knows he does know.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Not all kids at that age will know.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Obviously, john and I are a lot more diligent about
it than most parents are,because it's what we do for a
living.
But he knows what he should andshould not do around her.
So I know that she gives himevery warning possible.
She's never done it, but if sheever did I wouldn't blame her.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
So for anybody listening that's in this
situation.
They click this title becausemaybe they search because they
literally just had an incidentwith their dog where their dog
bit them or they're nearing ityeah, or they're nearing it, but
they're feeling a lot ofemotions right now.
I think it's important thatthey know that they have
resources out there, that you'rea resource, for literally no

(45:52):
matter where you are in theworld, you can be a resource if
you can explain that.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Yep.
So big thing that people have ahard time understanding is that
you can work with me fromanywhere.
Okay, I do Zoom sessions.
I do not need to see your dogin action, I do not need to be
there in person.
All I need is you to sit downwith a cup of coffee, a cup of

(46:17):
tea and we go over absolutelyeverything that is going on in
your home and how you can fix itwithout me even physically
getting involved.
Because there are so many thingslike we discussed today, so
many things that go into thisthat can be easily changed.
But if they don't get changed,I could literally do anything

(46:39):
that the aversive trainers doand you will still have the same
result.
Until you fix those things, youwill be in the same place or
worse.
So we really need to get downto the nitty gritty of it and
understand what their day lookslike, what their triggers are
and why the biting is happening.
And then we desensitize, wecounter condition, we make sure

(47:00):
they have no chemical imbalance,that they feel safe and that
your relationship is mutual loveand respect.
When we do those things, wecome out on the other side, but
I can do that sitting here, justlike I am right now.
I do not need to be there inperson.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Right, and don't listen to any trainers that tell
you that you need to use aprong collar, a shock collar,
because it might look like andthey might be able to show you
situations where this has beenfixed.
Where they fixed it, they havesuppressed the reaction.
They've suppressed the dog fromgrowling, from, from doing

(47:37):
anything other than escalatingto a bite, so what looks like
the dog is brought back undercontrol and reality.
Like I always say, you've takenthe tick away from the time
bomb.
It's still going to explodevery dangerous extremely,
especially the kids in the home.
Yeah, so yeah, reach out toJamie if you need help, and we
can help you from anywhere, nomatter where you are.

(47:59):
We have clients all over theworld, on different continents.
Dogs are dogs, doesn't matterwhere your dog lives, they're
still dogs and they're gonna actlike dogs.
So you want to talk about thetrainer's toolbox for this week?
Last week we talked about thePupcicle by Woof and this week
it felt appropriate to talkabout this here book that, if

(48:22):
you're watching on YouTubeyou've seen in the middle of the
table, in the middle of thedesk the entire time.
This book is called Dog bites amultidisciplinary perspective by
Daniel S Mills and KerryWestgarth were both dog behavior
experts.
This book is it's acomprehensive overview of the
causes, prevention andmanagement of dog bites and
covers a wide range of topics,including the different types of

(48:43):
dog bites, the factors thatcontribute to dog bites, how to
prevent them, what to do ifyou're bitten, how to manage the
aftermath, the legal andethical aspects, media coverage,
the role of behavior experts inpreventing and managing dog
bites.
The book is written in a clearand concise styles, while
reference is valuable resourcefor anyone who wants to learn
more about dog bites.
This book was actually arecommendation by Mike Chikashio

(49:05):
.
He posted it.
If you know, he's aggressivedogcom.
He is like one of the top of adog aggression trainers or
training dog aggression trainerouters.
He deals with dog aggressionall the time.
We're actually headed to hisconference in Chicago in just a
few weeks on dog aggression.
Coming up quick, yeah, but heposted this book a few months

(49:25):
back as a recommendation.
It's something that every petprofessional or owner of an
aggressive dog should have intheir toolbox and I'll link a
copy where you can get a copy ofthis in the show notes if you
are interested.
But again, it's dog bites amultidisciplinary perspective by
Daniel S Mills and KerryWestgarth, and it is.
It's hefty, it's.

(49:47):
I'm trying to see the pagecount.
You still need to read this.
You need to start digging intothis.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
I do but it's somewhere.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
So I'm going to indexes right now.
Ok, we are at about 430 pages,so there is so much information.
It's also broken into sections,so like it'll be health issues,
like I said, media coverage,investigation.
So it's all about the differentdisciplines related to dog
bites and not only how oursociety perceives it, but how we

(50:16):
can deal with it and how we canwork as experts or with experts
to address it.
So that is our trainers toolboxfor today.
Yeah, I don't think we have anylistener questions.
Let me just double check, but Idon't think I put it up too
late.
I put it up like 20 minutesbefore we started, so I'm not
sure that anybody had time toactually fill it out.

(50:37):
No, no questions.
So if you don't mind, I'llcontinue to talk.
Yeah, and I'll get into a littlebit of dog science, our old
friend the dog science topic.
Yeah, I love it.
So let's dive into someresearch that explores how dogs
understand human pointinggestures.
So the study is actually athesis published at a University
of Arizona titled do dogsunderstand pointing cues?

(50:59):
How gays affects choices is byLeah Shadwar.
C, h, a, u, d O I R.
Leah, I hope I didn't tarnishyour name with that
pronunciation.
The study's main goal was touncover whether dogs truly
comprehend pointing cues or iftheir response are just based on
learned behaviors.
Researchers wanted to find outif dogs view pointing as

(51:19):
communication or simply a way tofind food.
The study involved experimentswith dogs in two different
conditions Ostensive and nonostensive, and the ostensi and
the ostensive condition.
Pointing gesture combined withadditional cues were used, such
as eye contact, high pitchspeech using the dog's name and
the non ostensive condition.
These cues were excluded,focusing solely on the pointing

(51:40):
gesture.
During the trials, a treat washidden under one of two cups.
The experiments are pointed tothe cup with the treat.
The result showed the dog inthe ostensi ostensive condition,
with the cues like eye contactand special vocalization were
used in addition to pointing,were more successful at
selecting the correct cup withthe treat.
These findings have significantimplications for dog training.

(52:02):
By understanding that dogs payclose attention to cues like eye
contact and vocal engagement,trainers and owners can
potentially enhance theircommunication with their dogs.
Incorporating these cues duringtraining might lead to more
effective responses.
Some considerations I made whilereviewing this research
included a relatively smallsample size of only 22 dogs,
potentially limiting thegeneralizability of findings.

(52:23):
Variations in breed andindividual differences were not
fully considered and thecontrolled environment might not
fully replicate real lifescenarios.
The study also focused onvisual and auditory clues.
It overlooked potentialolfactory cues, which is the dog
smelling the treat.
Additionally, the dog's priortraining experiences and the
simplified cues used in thestudy might not fully capture

(52:45):
the complexity of nature,natural, dog and human
communication.
All in all, the studyreinforces the dog's have
sophisticated understanding ofour cues.
That underscores the depth ofcanine human communication and
offers insights into moreeffective training methods based
on a deeper understanding ofhow dogs perceive and respond to
our cues.
And as other research has shownus.
There's actually some recentresearch from a few months ago

(53:09):
showing that a combination ofcumodalities is more reliable
than just one.
So if you want to read thatthesis.
I will.
It's really, really detailed.
It's, I think, like 20 or 30pages long.
It's well done.
I wish the sample size wasbigger, but I will link to it in
the show notes.
So that's my dog science forthe week.
Awesome.

(53:29):
So just yet again, itreinforces that.
Just like I always do likealways combining some type of
gesture with a vocal, you'llalways, always have a stronger
recall of what it is that youwant.
Oh yeah, so something toconsider, especially if you're
just training your dog at home.
Something to consider.

(53:50):
Do you have anything else you'dlike to talk about?

Speaker 2 (53:56):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
I think it's worth mentioning this week as well,
since we're talking about dogbites, and then you would listen
to this, might be concerned ormight be dealing with dog bites,
and especially you may haveanother animal in the house pet
first aid.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Oh yes.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Pet first aid.
Like I mentioned last week, wehave officially launched our
online advanced pet first aidand CPR course.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Completely online.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Completely online at your pace, broken into easily
digested lessons, takes aboutthree and a half hours to
complete.
Upon completion and finishingthat final exam, you'll get a
beautiful holographiccertification card that is yours
to keep and will always beassociated with like a.
You can go to a website and ifyou're looking for an employer

(54:40):
you want to show off to yourclients, they can verify that
you are certified right throughour website.
And it's lifetime, so you'llhave the course for life,
including any updates that comein the future.
You'll be able to recertifyafter two years for free.
You just take the test againand we re-app your certification
through the website.
So it's 147.

(55:01):
If you are associated with NAPS,the National Association of
Professional Pet Sitters.
They have endorsed the courseand are offering a discount for
their members.
So check I don't know wherethey're posting that that you've
, if you remember, you'vedefinitely gotten an email from
them that has the link to thediscount.
But look out for that if youare a NAPS member.
But this is something a lot ofpeople worried like well, do I

(55:23):
really need advanced pet firstaid?
It's, it's designed to beextremely approachable if you've
already taken a first aidcourse, not a problem if you've
never taken a first aid course,not a problem, because it covers
everything, soup soup to nuts,and it will be constantly
updated.
There's already two morepending modules that I'm going
to be adding under, justadditional stuff.

(55:44):
One of them is disasterpreparedness and the other one I
will release info on in thefuture, at a later time.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
It's also important to note that you I know you said
you can go at your own pace,but I think a lot of people get
confused.
There's no timeline.
You do not need to finish it ata certain time when you
purchase it, right like someonereached out and they're like, oh
, I want to purchase it, but Iwon't be able to get to it to
September, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
That's fine, it's your time, it's yours it's yours
, you'll get you're just notcertified until you pass the
final exam, which includesopening your reading all the
lessons.
But it's yours.
It's yours to keep and it's onyour timeline.
There is no rush.
Yeah, there's unlimited retries.
We just want to make sure thatyou understand the material and,
if you need it, I am here forremediation.
We can jump on a phone call andI can answer any of your

(56:29):
questions, help you understandone of the topics better.
But, yeah, it's.
This is designed to beextremely comprehensive yet
extremely approachable.
So if you're interested at all,posamuniversitycom forward
slash pet first aid or you canlook for the link in the show
notes or on our Instagram oranywhere else.
Speaking of Instagram, we areat posam university on Instagram

(56:51):
.
You can find us on YouTube,facebook, occasionally TikTok,
not much though.
TikTok's kind of I don't knowwhat happened.
It's.
I don't know either used to beso cool for like a year.
But, yeah, follow along.
And um, yeah, we don't have aquestion for today, but if I put
that out earlier we would havebeen able to do a listener

(57:12):
question about more than enoughtoday yeah, but if you follow us
on Instagram you can just checkour story.
Typically on Tuesdays we'll putup something looking for
questions and that's youropportunity to submit your
question to us and we mightanswer it right here on the
podcast.
So that wraps up for today.
I don't know what we're goingto talk about next week yet, but

(57:32):
I'm sure it'll be a good one.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
But where can they find you?
again if they want to enroll intraining oh, so if you want to
enroll in training, you can justgo to posamuniversitycom.
If you go to, especially ifyou're if you really need
virtual, like you're out of outof New Jersey um, go to online
dog training and it'll saypricing and bundles, you can go
there.
I have one single session Ihave.

(57:57):
You know you can do multiplesingle sessions whatever works
for you.
But then I have some bundleoptions where you can purchase
some additional sessions forcheaper.
This helps you stay consistent.
Um, there's no timeline again.
They don't expire.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
They're there for you , um, but yeah, what if they
want to talk about it firstbefore they commit?

Speaker 2 (58:16):
I also have a free eval so you can sign up for a
free 15 minute eval call.
We'll discuss what you'reexperiencing, what option, what
training option might be bestfor you.
Um, and to ease your woes andexplain a little bit more in
detail why virtual training canwork for every single dog,
because that surprises people itdoes quite a bit yep.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
And also, we are, as far as I know, one of the only
higher level dog trainingbehavior modification companies
that offer payment plans on ourbundles, so you might be able to
afford it.
It might surprise you.
If you think that it's notwithin your budget, you might be
pleasantly surprised.
So head over topossumuniversitycom and you can
check out the bundles.

(59:00):
You can check out our paymentplans with the bundles and see
what works for you and at thevery least, if you're still on
the fence, schedule a call withjamie.
It's free, you don't have totalk to anybody.
Actually schedule the call,it's all automatically through
the website.
Just pick a date, the time,enter your phone number and your
name and your email and shewill personally call you when
it's your turn to get called.

(59:20):
Um, all right.
So that's all we have for thisweek.
Yep, until next week classdismissed.

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