October 25, 2023 • 39 mins
What if we told you that your dog's bad behavior might not entirely be their fault? Or that the trauma they experienced as a puppy could be causing their anxiety? Get ready to rethink your understanding of dog behavior as we journey into the fascinating world of epigenetics. We tap into the complex science that shapes your dog's DNA sequence, shedding light on how factors such as diet, upbringing, and hormone levels can influence their behavior. By the end of this episode, you’ll have a better grasp on the interplay of genetics and environment in determining your dog’s conduct.
Drawing from compelling case studies like that of Bob, the 18-month-old German shepherd, we make a case for how bad breeding and traumatic experiences can severely impact a dog's behavior. We also delve into the heart-wrenching story of Sadie, the only dog recommended for behavioral euthanasia in our years of experience. Through these stories, you'll come to see that improving your dog's home life isn't a simple task, and that early life experiences play a significant role in shaping your dog's behavior.
Lastly, we don’t just leave you with the problems, but also provide some solutions. We discuss the importance and selection of mentally stimulating outdoor activities for your dogs. Because, as we'll see, it's not just about keeping your dog physically active, it's about engaging their mind too. So strap yourself in for a riveting journey through the world of epigenetics, and walk away with valuable insights to help you better understand and manage your dog's behavior.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Everybody welcome to a podcast for dog people.
I'm John and I'm Jamie and weare your personal dog experts.
We're here to help you betterunderstand your dogs in the wide
spectrum of behaviors theyexhibit, so join us on this
journey to learn everything.
Dog Everybody.
Welcome back to the podcast fordog people by Paulson
(00:20):
University.
This week we're talking aboutcan my dogs past trauma cause
anxiety?
This is a something that weencounter all the time all the
time.
And really it comes down togenetics, more specifically
epigenetics, and I don't thinkwe've ever really gone into
detail.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I don't know why we haven't, because it's literally
it's so important.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It's.
It's a very complex topic thatwe would need to spend hours and
hours and probably bring inexperts to like really cover
properly.
But I was racking my head theother day on how we can, how I
can Adjust my microphone, how Ican like properly Articulate it,
because I had tried to explainit once to you and I was like
(01:03):
all right, I Need to dump thisdown a lot more because this is
too complex, and I think that Ithe real that went out on
Instagram this morning.
I think that that was a decentjob of kind of like trying to as
, as lack of a better words likejust dumb it down as much as
possible.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
No, that's what.
When it comes to dog trainingand behavioral modification, I
find that the more Layman'sterms that we use, people can
really understand.
When we use a lot of scientificterms, it gets lost and it
doesn't really make sense.
So I, you know, I think I wishthere was a better phrase than
dumb it down.
But like, really like, make itsound normal, make, it make it
(01:42):
relatable, make itunderstandable.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So the the Comparison I was able to come up with was
Everybody has like recipe cardsin their house and if you have
old family recipes that havebeen passed down, try and
picture like an old recipe cardand maybe it was like cut out of
a magazine or something.
But then everyone's got thoseones that, like their grandma,
(02:04):
wrote on the side Mm-hmm.
And it'll be like two sticks ofutter instead of one, or, you
know, add an extra pinch of saltor do this or that and is
little, their little tweaks tothat recipe.
So think of DNA as just thisStandardized recipe card, right,
and it's got all theingredients on it and what to do
.
And think of epigenetics asthose little tweaks that
(02:28):
whoever's making baking I thinkI used a baker for that example
Whoever's baking is doing to therecipe, little tweaks that that
to make it their own.
That's what epigenetics are.
It's essentially a turning offor a turning on of genes in the
DNA sequence.
Then it's really what makes youyou and what makes your dog
your dog.
That's why you're differentthan my sister your sister.
(02:51):
It's why Fraternal twins thataren't identical twins are
different, and even identicaltwins go on and one might have
anxiety.
One doesn't.
They live these different livesand it's the same thing for all
living beings that use DNA.
So what turns on and off thesegenes?
It's, it's a lot of things.
(03:12):
There's a lot of factors.
It could be your diet, it couldbe your upbringing, whether or
not you've had trauma in yourpast, and I'm saying your, but
it supplies to dogs as well thatEverything like your, your
experiences in life For humans,whether or not you smoke,
whether or not you engage inthose riskier activities, all
(03:35):
those things affect your genes.
I'm hormone levels affect themand they change over time.
I Wish I knew what study it was, but do you remember we were
listening to one podcast withthat one doctor and she was
talking about how men who havekids, like you, have a man and
(03:55):
woman and if the dad is obese atthe time?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
of like fertilization .
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, then the probability of the child
becoming obese in their lifetimeis significantly higher.
But which I think is crazy butthen when the men they also
studied, they had a group of menlose weight.
They started to remember lostweight and I think it was a
couple months after and theywere.
They were at an ideal weightand they didn't pass on that
(04:22):
gene that gene, that likelihoodwas not as prominent.
So Epigenetics very complex it's.
It's all about the littlenuances in our DNA that makes us
us so obviously that'sconsequential like covering my
face, I forget we're on camera.
Obviously that's consequentialfor our dogs and all the things
that they go through, and weencounter this a lot and we
(04:44):
encountered it with Gracie, ourmost recent boarding dog, and I
think a lot of people strugglewith this.
I think a lot of people Blamethemselves for their dog's
behavior or their dog's anxietyor their dog's aggression, and a
lot of the times it's not evensomething that they're doing
wrong, other than the fact thatthey just don't know how to
provide the dog with theresources that they need To live
(05:07):
a normal life or it's the otherway around, where they just
view the dog's behavior asaggression Versus.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
This is literally how the DNA is made up and they're
really struggling.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Well, I mean, that's.
What I'm saying is that they'renot respond.
They're not personallyresponsible for the dogs
undesired behavior.
The only thing they'repersonally responsible for is
not Doing whatever is needed tobe done to get them better to
get them better for sure.
So that so like a lot of peopleblame themselves, and they
really shouldn't it's just yourdog's DNA, your dog's
epigenetics, so I explain thisto my clients when they're
(05:39):
confused about when I talk aboutthis.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I give an example.
Like women, women, the firsttime you get pregnant you go to
the doctor's.
You have to stay so calm You'rewith child, don't get stressed,
don't exert yourself, don't,don't do crazy things, right,
because you can pass that stressand anxiety onto your baby when
you are literally pregnant withthem, so that can be passed
down While your child is insideof you.
(06:03):
So I I try.
I have a lot of clients thatcome to me like, oh, you know, I
got my dog is a puppy Eightweeks.
And I'm like, oh, so do we knowwhat happened with mom?
Oh well, they were, you know,born on the side of the road.
They were born in a shelter,you know, and they were with mom
.
I'm like that's great, but Momwas so stressed out, wow,
(06:24):
bringing these dogs into theworld, that that gets passed
down.
And it's not to every puppy,right?
Like this is not.
Like with epigenetics, it's notokay.
All eight of these puppies aregonna be super anxious because
mom was anxious when she washaving them.
It's.
It's very like John said,there's so much that goes into
this, so many variables, but themore the ones that come out and
they're a little bit moresensitive.
Those are the ones that are.
(06:45):
We find them to be very, veryintelligent, advanced
intelligence, like literallywatch your every move.
They tend to be more timid ormore reactive or like fight or
flight.
Where is, like some of theother ones, like we always say,
oakley?
Happy dummy he's like, butwhat's going on?
What's happening?
Yeah right, like for him.
I don't think Oakley's anxietyis epigenetical at all.
I think his is abandonmentissues from being abandoned.
(07:07):
I think he was happy go luckythe day he was born and then he
just had things happen to himafterwards, whereas Gracie we
know that she was kind of foundin the woods at three months old
.
We can only imagine that shewas probably a puppy that was
born outside and found yeah.
And she is just petrified oflife.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah, and this isn't the first time that we've
encountered a Puppy, a dog withvery little life experience that
is like appears to be asdamaged as a dog can be.
Obviously, I want you to changenames when we talk about these
dogs that we've dealt with, but,like one of them that really
comes to mind Is the Germanshepherd who I just explained
(07:52):
was like we'll call him Bob.
Call the German shepherd Bob.
Okay, we'll call this Germanshepherd Bob, I think.
When did Bob start working withyou?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Okay, it's 2023.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I don't mean like how old I'm, have old.
Was he when you started, whenyou?
18 months 18 months and theissues were already there.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yes, so he Was a German shepherd from a Amish
breeder.
The situation again.
There's so many variables butBad breeding for sure.
This dog came, came out anxious.
I mean, we went through thewhole spiel, went over.
You know how was he when youfirst got him and this is a much
older couple they really hadreally no business getting this
(08:32):
dog and we've discussed that amillion times.
But he was anxious from day one,very, very reactive, very nippy
, zero to a hundred like wouldgo into Kujo mode very, very
easily and not really come outof it.
He wound up not doing well withvisitors at all.
There were a couplealtercations.
(08:53):
But they also put him throughtwo rounds of a very aversive
Franchise dog training placeover here by us.
When the first time didn't work, they did it again, I don't
know why which did not helpright.
So we have stacked issues.
Now we have epigenetic goal andwe have poor training.
Right, we have aversivetraining.
So he came to me.
Thankfully I was able to winhim over and so was one of my
(09:17):
dog walkers that works for us,thank God.
But it got to the point whereeven our own vet that we work
very closely with her and I hadto have a very long conversation
about Bob and whether he wasdangerous or not and really like
where we were at asprofessionals in our advice and
(09:38):
suggestions to this couple.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, I mean, the dog was dangerous.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
And he was especially dangerous.
I'm saying was is I'm sure he'sstill alive, he's just not with
them anymore.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
He's not with them anymore.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The primary issue in my eyes and in yours and
everybody else that was helpingus with the situations like Dr
Madden, was essentially thatwith the mental state of dad, it
was a.
I explained that as he'sessentially it's like he's
waving around a load of gun andhe has no idea.
Yes, he's very laxadaisicalabout.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Dad had a brain injury a while back and then a
stroke from the brain injury.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So he was just kind of just for would be very
forgetful.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
We'll like leave the front door open and like this
cannot happen.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
This is dangerous.
Someone is going to get hurtand you are going to get sued.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, but I mean, this is a dog that was born with
these issues, just born beingso terrified of life that he
wants to hurt you before you canhurt him, and just comes off.
No bite inhibition though.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
No bite inhibition Like when he bit, he bit you.
He actually ripped, so it's socrazy Like this is what shows
you this is epigenetical andit's definitely a chemical
imbalance.
I was working with him for areally long time at this point
it was probably our sixthsession and I was holding the
leash, we were walking himaround, we were trying to get
him comfortable with thedaughter's older friend Like the
(11:09):
daughter was probably 40.
Her friend, who was also 40.
Walk around the backyard reallycounter conditioning working
with him and he was barking,obviously, and then we needed to
take a break.
I was like he's getting toostressed, so they all stayed in
the backyard and I went and puthim back in the house.
I threw some hot dogs and Iwent to slip out the slider door
.
He came at me like he had neverseen me before and ripped my
(11:31):
leggings.
Thankfully didn't bite me,which I guess was a good bite
inhibition.
I don't know if he just didn'tget me or not.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
He just missed.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I was quick enough, but he definitely ripped my
leggings and when I tell you,like he had just been giving me
kisses and taking treats from meand had been on the leash with
me for a half an hour with noreactivity towards me whatsoever
, so literally the idea of beingleft and left in the house.
He ditched the hot dogs and hewas like attack and slammed into
(11:58):
the glass door as I closed itDo you know what I mean?
And then barked, and barked,and barked and barked Right.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's typically the dogs Like how do you identify a
dog with this kind of issue?
It's typically the dogs thathave very, very irrational
responses to stress and like.
It's not a lot of dogs, butwhen it is.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, it's not often.
It's not often, but when it'swhen it's, you throw medications
at this and there's hardly anyimprovement, that's again where
it gets even more dangerous.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Like he was on a bunch of different types of
medications.
We tried, we literally threwthe kitchen sink at this dog
because nothing was working.
You know, then in my mind I'msaying, okay, like what kind of
quality of life does this dogtruly have?
You know, and it's not hisfault.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
He was a really severe case I mean there's dogs
with.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
He was decently bad.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
There's dogs who have genetic anxiety They've just
inherited it.
That like aren't this bad andare easily managed.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yes, well, the one who stayed with us for a few
days, I'm not gonna use her name.
Just use a fake name Penelope,okay, penelope.
When she went at my face she isanother one who probably has
epigenetical.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yes, for sure, for sure, but she is, she's more
manageable, she's manageable.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Because her parents put so much energy into keeping
the community and her safe.
And that was anotherconversation that me and our vet
had.
Is she dangerous?
And she even said they do sucha good job of keeping her safe.
I am not worried about this one, Whereas Bob she was like, oh
(13:38):
no, I am worried, Good Bob.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Good Bob, is this?
I mean, is it just a matter ofcan we manage this dog to the
point where they're safe, or doyou think that there's a
prognosis of like we can reallyimprove the quality of life
across the board?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think it's cold.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Let's just say, the dogs that are on the more severe
side of the spectrum.
So, like chances are, if you'relistening to this, this isn't
you, but you may.
If you work in the shelterfield, you may encounter these
dogs.
If you're a dog trainer, youmight encounter these dogs.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yeah, so I'm sorry you're distracting me.
What was the question?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
The question was what is the prognosis look like and
can we do things so that theycan lead a totally normal life?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So in Bob's case that home life was impossible for
him to improve.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
It was because of his , because of their family
situation, because of theirsituation.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Not because of him.
If he was in a different homewith more consistency, a younger
couple, less craziness and noone with their own mental issues
going on at home, I think hewould have improved.
Like it could have been to thepoint where they weren't giving
medication properly.
Like it's down to that where Idon't know what the consistency
(14:53):
really looked like and I knowthat the mother was very, very
anxious, so like a lot of thehomework that I was giving them,
they weren't doing so.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So they were afraid to try it.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I think she was really afraid and then she
couldn't rely on her husbandbecause he's not well.
I think he thinks that he'swell, but he's obviously not.
So that becomes even dangerousin a situation right when he
thinks everything's fine, but inreality he gets Bob a little
bit too close to somebody andthen we have a bite on our hands
.
So, I think that's what she wasreally nervous about.
I don't think that she trustedher husband.
So in their family situationthat was an issue.
(15:24):
I don't think that Bob wouldhave succeeded or gotten better
because he literally had thingsstacked against him.
Now in Penelope's situation,they do everything in their
power to keep her comfortable,right.
She is happy, but they will dolittle things to try to get her
to a good place.
They can they continue doingtraining with us.
(15:47):
She did great with Oakley.
I mean, this is a dog who, whenI first met her, wanted to rip
my face off.
And then we got to a pointwhere she could stay here in our
home with us when they neededto leave her with us for five
days.
She wanted pets, wantedaffection, and then when it got
too much she went to snap it myface.
I think she did it to you too,right.
And then afterwards, when shecomes out of the red zone, she's
(16:08):
like, oh my God, what did I do?
Like she is showing remorse.
It's not like she's this, youknow, highly aggressive, I will
not bow down type of situation.
It's when she snapped out ofthat moment she felt really bad
about what she had done.
So she does not do that to herparents.
So I know that she can do it andI'm sure if she spent more time
(16:29):
with us we would have got onthe same playing field with her
parents.
So it's not like she can't doit.
They put a lot of work into it.
They try not too often becausethey don't want to overstress
her, but when they have freetime they'll take her to the
park on off hours when there'snot a lot of people there and
there's like kids in thedistance or people like running
around the track.
They'll work with her for ashort period of time and then
(16:51):
they'll take her home and gether an ice cream cone on the way
.
So it's a good positiveassociation.
So they do and they have worked.
Really she's come a long way.
So, I already know that Penelopehas improved, because if she
hadn't like, they'd still bebanging down my door.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I haven't heard from them in months which we always
say no no, was it no?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
No news is good news.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
No news is good news.
So, yeah, they have definitelyimproved her life.
Now I think it really, like Isaid, so many variables like
that question's kind of loaded,yeah, do I think that they're
okay?
So another example I don't evenremember this dog's name, so,
oh, yes, I do nevermind, I'mgonna call her Sadie.
It is the only dog that I haveever suggested behavioral
(17:38):
euthanasia, the only dog in myyears of doing this.
Okay, and it was because, again, every medication we threw at
her, no response.
She turned on her family.
She would get glassy eyes.
She'd literally go like theshark from Finding Nemo eyes
black, like literally like be ina dead sleep.
(17:58):
Get up and seek them out in thehome.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
So she had a switch.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
She had a switch and it was all three.
It was the husband, the wifeand the son, who was probably 25
.
And it broke them.
I mean, it was a horrible thingthat we had to do.
We worked for months to try toget her to a good place.
We set up safety mechanisms sonobody was getting bit, because
she really had no control overit.
But then when she would comeout of it, she would go right
(18:23):
back to normal and act like itdidn't happen, which was the
problem Like she didn't have anyremorse, she didn't realize
what she had done, like noremembrance of it.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Was it?
This wasn't a rem issue?
Was it Not that I'm?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
aware of, she was seeing the vets at Red Bank.
So I think that they did do anextensive amount of like.
I'm pretty sure Trotter was theone who was working with her,
and Madden, so they wereeverybody.
We were all working togetherand we all kind of came to an
agreement that everybody wasunsafe.
Everybody was unsafe.
You know she and this was fromthe time they adopted her.
(19:02):
You know they worked with herfor, I wanna say, like almost
three years.
They really put a lot of effortinto this but she actually
wound up declining that lastyear a lot.
You know she wasn't that old,she was probably five.
So it was tough.
That was a tough one where Ithink literally like either
something going on in the brain,they did, I'm pretty sure they
(19:23):
did an MRI.
We didn't find any tumors to myknowledge.
But yeah, it was one of the mostsevere cases, because otherwise
she was a lazy dog.
It wasn't like she was highenergy, looking for attention,
like she slept all day and thenwould just wake up, and it was
like it's go time and like momdidn't feel like comfortable
going into the kitchen becausethe kitchen was like a one way.
(19:44):
It's like when you were in thekitchen the only way out was
that one door.
So if she came in cornered momlike mom was kind of screwed.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So it was scary.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
No, it was scary for all of them.
The one who really didn't getbit was the dad, but no, she
came for the son and for the momlike daily Wow.
And with them doing nothing,there was like it wasn't.
Like they walked into the room,like she would just walk down
the stairs and it would be gotime.
It was scary.
Yeah, it was really scary.
So that's the only dog.
I've ever suggested that becausereally at the end of the day
(20:14):
she was also measurable.
She had no quality of life andI think they were feeling guilty
.
It was like they did everythingthey could to help her.
They put in so much effort.
They did like three trainersbefore me and I was kind of like
that last straw in the behaviordepartment and all the other
(20:34):
trainers like we are illequipped to handle this.
But, working with the vets, wewere trying to come up with a
protocol and there was someimprovement, maybe a little bit,
maybe less attempts, because weset up like a different, like
safety protocol, but it doesn'tmean that it really overall
changed much.
The outcome was still theoutcome, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
But and it's a severe case.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It really was.
She wasn't really showingkinship with anybody.
That's when I'm like, okay, wenow we're getting into dangerous
territory where I don't know ifit'll just be one bite.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Kind of reminds me of Fred.
Yeah, absolutely, fred was afighting dog that we had cared
for for two years more Two years.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
When I got there, he was already there for a year.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, so we had gotten him from a dog fighting
ring.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
A pretty severe one.
Yeah, wasn't he called thechampion?
Speaker 1 (21:29):
No, he was not one of the the studs.
They were moved out somewhereremote like a top secret
location but he was definitelyfought quite a bit.
But he always, like we allloved him because we knew him
for two years to care him everyday but he was kind of always
just kind of disassociated in.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Like looked through you.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, he looked through you Like it was never,
like a real bond that you haveto go to dog like a dog that you
take care of every day for twoyears and that you trust like
it's, like it's gravy but youalways with Fred.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
We were always kind of on guard.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, just in case.
Yeah, you could just, you couldjust tell.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
He did show remorse, though.
Remember when we had toeventually euthanize him.
Unfortunately, he got dangerousat the end.
Do you remember right before hewas giving you love and you saw
his face change, so you fellbackwards and.
I held the leash and after hecame out of it he looked
remorseful.
He looked like I can't stop,I'm so sorry and it was sad.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It was really sad he had lended, I think, a couple of
bites on staff.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Like he was declining too.
It was kind of like you said.
It's very similar to the one Iwas just describing.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, so I mean happens, he broke down.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
He was there for too long, and then the other two
that came in.
They wound up going to familiesand yeah, living totally.
I think they were mostly usedfor breeding.
They were definitely fought alittle bit, but not like Fred,
either that or maybe bait.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Maybe, like breeding and bait.
Yeah, something, something,because they had lots of scars.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, but Fred, fred would he broke down the other
two.
They held strong, they did.
They were both kind of happydummies.
They weren't super intelligent,they were Stella can we?
Go home now.
Why are we here?
But Fred, fred was veryintelligent and ginger, ginger
girl love her she wound uphaving Breast cancer Right and
they wound up removing it andshe's still okay.
(23:25):
It moved all ten of her herglands, poor thing, but we're
how amazing to find a familythat was gonna do that for her.
But yeah, fred, unfortunatelywe did.
We had to.
We had to put him down too,because it was he was.
I mean he was.
When he came in he was labeledas dangerous, right, like he was
a fighting dog.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
He was immediately Like no, we're all and then
manager only and then by the endof it it was like everybody's
just wants to walk, fred wellwas like come, come, meet Fred
with me and let's see if helikes you.
Yeah, let's see if he likes you.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
There are some people he didn't like, but you know,
for the most part he was good.
And then you know he declined,he broke down he was in a shit.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
He lived in a shelter environment.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I was so much stressful and he was always in a
back room and you know hedidn't really see, he didn't
really have quality of life.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
So, yes, very similar to that other situation, for
sure so from Instagram, notreally a question, but sort of a
question, but I feel like Ishould just read it and we'll
get our thoughts out on it.
I have a dog who is highlyreactive to other dogs on walks
and his gen in general, slow tosettle, always a bit on edge.
Adopted him very young, at justsix weeks, as his mother astray
(24:29):
, was badly abused and needed tobe hospitalized and had to be
away from Her puppies early.
I've always wondered if, if histraumatic young life impacted
his reactive nature.
Now he is three years old.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Oh, that's so relatable to this topic.
Oh my god, did you ask aquestion about abgenetics?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
No, it was just a comment on the epigenetics post.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Okay, All right, interesting, that's that's I
mean.
I'm glad they gave all thatinformation too, because that's
super helpful.
Yeah, six weeks Taken away frommom, super young mom was abused
and injured when giving birth,like that, you know, like that's
, that's tough.
And then if she's injured likeeven I always think about this
(25:06):
right, like I I'm I was.
I have two boys.
I breastfed them both and Iknow any.
Even the smidge of Stress thatI would experience would
immediately drop my milk supply.
So you can imagine for a dogit's probably the same way while
trying to feed X amount ofpuppies right.
Right now, not only are you in acrappy situation, you have like
(25:30):
no protection, shelter or likeresources given to you around
the clock like our normal dogsare.
Now, these puppies maybe have areduced milk supply and trying
to survive, you know, and thenwe like there's so many issues
that can plug from this and theamount of stress that a puppy
may feel being underfed yeah, orbeing Six weeks old and taken
(25:53):
from mom.
That's a huge, huge thing.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
You've missed, I want to say, two key developmental
periods of life that they havenow missed out on that, where
they need mom and they needtheir siblings Absolutely.
So, like a lot of times, we'llsee issues with bite inhibition
because they never learned howto properly Play bite and they
never learned how hard is toohard with their teeth.
That's a popular thing We'llsee.
And then, yeah, they kind oflike just general anxiety and
(26:17):
reactivity.
All stems from past lifeexperiences and fear, and so you
have whatever Mom may or maynot have passed down genetically
, and then you have the traumaexperienced firsthand At such a
young age.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, it's entirely Understandable for your dog to
be going through that and that'swhy people, when, when they
come to me for one-on-onetraining, I always explain to
them that first session has tobe virtual and this is why I
Need to know all of this.
A lot of people want to come inperson immediately and I always
say I need to.
Before Any physical training,before I do anything with the
(26:56):
dog, I need to know what are.
What are they up againstMentally?
What are they dealing with thatcould attribute to the issues
that they are giving you.
That all matters, right, like aHuman going to therapy.
If they have an abusive past,that's the first thing the
therapist is gonna ask you about.
Tell me about that.
(27:17):
What happened to you, so we canunderstand why you act this way
.
Now, right, so it's so foreignto people.
I talk about this with dogtraining but, like with therapy,
like, oh yeah, that makes totalsense.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Right, it's the same thing when there's smoke,
there's fire.
So if there's there's somethingthat's kind of keying you off
on the on your dog's history,you might want to take a look
into that.
Or even what's going on or inyour home or you know anything
that could hit, that could keyyou in on something.
You should really narrow downand try and explore that a
little more.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, my main thing is like I really want people to
ever the everyday people withyour everyday dogs.
Just think about your dog andthink about how they act, the
things that you don't like ortheir little anxiety quirks or
the way that you know, just ingeneral, how they function as a
dog, and think about how theywere brought up, what their
situation was prior to you, andI will tell you if you got your
(28:09):
dog from a breeder, you got themyoung, it doesn't matter.
There's still six to eightweeks that they were with
somebody else other than you.
Okay, so like, lose the hole.
I got my dog as a puppy thing.
Because that that's not a, it'snot a good example of why your
dog should be okay, right,that's a long two months that
someone could have been not niceto them lack of resources,
(28:30):
heavy hands, mean sibling andthere was no mom to help them
out right, like.
There are so many things thatcould have happened in those six
to eight Weeks prior to youthat will attribute to how they
act now.
So I really want you to look atit and say, okay, what could
possibly be going on?
So we have a little bit moreempathy for our dogs, because
it's about how we act to right.
If we're so frustrated with ourdogs thinking that they're
(28:52):
doing XYZ just because they wantto be annoying, that doesn't
help you with training, yeah,that.
That puts you in a place whereyou don't want to change.
You don't want to help becausenow you're feeling resentful.
Well, your mind is closed, sonow you're not gonna, you're not
gonna be able to identify andyou're not gonna be able to pick
your battle either, like you'renot gonna be able to say, okay,
(29:12):
this is really not that big ofa deal, right, you're just gonna
think that every single thingthis dog does you need to
reprimand.
Mm-hmm and really you'respinning your wheels, if not
making it worse.
So you have to look at thehistory and if anybody's ever
questioning, like doing aconsult with me or Attempting,
you know, one-on-one trainingwith me, that stuff matters to
your progress and that's why Ido it, because that's what's
(29:36):
necessary.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I need to know it's interesting because Having this
inherited genetic Issue is not.
It's not gonna change much asfar as what our plan is on On
doing behavior modification.
So it's not.
It's not like super criticalthat you identify, because it's
not even something that you.
There's no test for it, it'sreally mostly just excluding
(29:58):
other things and then you'relike, well, it could be from
past on from mom, it could betrauma from from early puppyhood
, doesn't really matter.
All it does is kind of give usa little more of an answer as to
why things are happening, whichkind of helps us tweak a little
bit.
But for the most part I feellike the behavior modification
plans going to be the same.
We just need to understand itmight take a little longer.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Oh, can I give an example?
Yeah of how that might changemy plan sure.
Um, we talked about himyesterday, so we're gonna change
his name.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
We're gonna call him Philip okay, I still don't know
who this young couple came to me.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I know first time dog , not first time dog owners okay
, never had a dog before theydecided to get an Aussie
shepherd.
They get this dog From a vettech.
Okay, she bred her, her Aussieshepherd.
She did not tell them that herdog was on medication and was
extremely reactive, which isfrowned upon.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
This is exactly why you should not be breeding a dog
, that you should not.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
That is so frowned upon in the breeding community.
Not that we are pro breedingwhatsoever, but you, if you have
a dog who has behavioral issues, you have no right.
You are literally passing thaton.
Okay, so they picked up Philip,nine weeks old.
Bring him home.
He's petrified.
(31:22):
He cried the entire way home,he was drooling, he was throwing
up.
That was it was just her andher other guy friend, because
dad was on a business trip.
Dad came home the next day.
She met him in the garage withPhilip.
He screamed, jumped out of herarms, hit in the corner and poop
, pooped and pissed himself atnine weeks old.
(31:42):
Okay, now, knowing thisinformation, like she, the mom
met the mother of Philip and sawhow, how reactive she was to
them coming into the home tobegin with.
Right, that tells me thatPhilip is going to need
intervention from pharmaceuticalintervention I, I know, maybe
(32:06):
not immediately because he's sofrickin young at this point what
they came to me.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
He was probably he was like six months, yeah, eight
months.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
He might have been eight months and I said listen,
with this situation, workingwith the vet, I want to see what
they say.
Is it worth waiting till a year?
A lot of times that's want towait till a year to put a dog on
medication, but if this dog isexperiencing what we know it's
experiencing from theinformation that we have, they
may do it Prior to try to avoidmore issues.
Not saying every vet would wantto do that, that every situation
(32:36):
is very yes, it depends on whatthe vet wants, but in and in
Philip's case, the vet was ahundred percent on board with
that and was like, oh my god,yes, give him a fighting chance.
They also went through foraverse of trainers before
finding me.
So, this dog was in really,really rough shape, but that is
a hundred percent epigeneticaland it and it did change what I
(33:00):
was gonna do and when I wasgonna do it.
So just that's a.
That's a very specific examplebut, like you're right, a lot of
it, the information, it may notchange at a hundred percent.
Like if I know, like, like withGracie, right, like she was
found in the woods and she seemsa little bit fearful of crates,
like I'm not gonna push heradopters to a hundred percent
(33:22):
crate train her if we thinkthat's gonna literally spark a
whole another slew of anxietythat she already has.
Right, so they're working onjust putting a baby gate in the
bedroom.
That she says it and she'sdoing fabulously right, we're
not gonna create a problem wherea problem doesn't already exist
, because we already know thatshe is very, very sensitive.
So that you know, like thingslike that, I'm gonna tread
(33:45):
lightly in certain situations,right.
So, yes, the more informationthat people give me, the better,
because it will tweak slightlywhat I'm doing, but it's not
gonna change everythingdrastically.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Okay, yeah, so there you go.
If you're dealing with this,you have Some hope yes, oh, my
god, there's so much hope aslong as you are willing to put
in the work.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yes, if you're, if you're willing to have empathy
for your dog and what they'veexperienced, and understanding
that, like they can't, theycan't process it the way that we
can.
Right, like we can go totherapy, we can talk it out.
They can't, so we have to workit out for them.
They do not have a choice.
Unless we give them that choice.
Mm-hmm, right, like your dog'snot gonna go off for an hour at
(34:27):
night, go get my, go get my shittogether.
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go talkit out in my head have a drink
need.
They need help from us to getthrough these issues.
So if you want this to change,it needs to start with you and
understanding that your anybehavior your dog is giving you
is not for the reasons why youthink they're giving it to you.
So we have to play detectiveand we have to get down to the
(34:50):
bottom of it, come with aprotocol and Really just move
forward, trying to make progressin these little areas to
improve their, their life andyour life.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So is this something you can work on virtually.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Oh, hundred percent.
So it's what I do day in andday out.
So really a lot like.
I just had a consult today withwith someone who the dog is
petrified, won't leave the houseVisitors coming and they just
rescued her, like maybe a monthago, and I literally said I'm
like, listen, you can come hereif you want to, but getting her
in the car is already a problem.
(35:21):
I said let's not even worryabout that, right, that'll be
like our end goal getting her inthe car, getting her
comfortable with with the car,meeting Oakley, like.
That's like session four andfive, hopefully, but our first
three sessions will most likelybe virtual because she don't
want to leave the house yet,right, like, and I'm working on
getting all the informationthose 45 minutes To the mom and
(35:42):
dad to help her on a daily basis.
That's my number one goal is toget the parents on board.
The humans have to understandwhat in the world they're doing.
It's less on her and it's moreon them, which a lot of people
don't want to hear, but it is.
She can't do it, right, sothere's gonna be a lot of
desensitization, encounter,conditioning, and you know it's.
(36:02):
It's gonna be a lot on them andit's really, how can I take
each 45 minute session and givethem as much as much information
and understanding of exactlywhat I need them to do, as if I
was there, as if I was the mom?
I'm gonna give you everything.
So, yes, 95% of what I do isvirtual.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So then someone wants to work with you.
Very, very affordable, yes,payment plans as well, but
possum university calm.
And then you can just book afree 15 minute evaluation call
right from the website.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
It's literally free.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Jamie will call you personally and just kind of chat
about your dog with theexpectations of our like our
program is and you know whichoption is best for you.
So if you're dealing with thisand you're just kind of want to
check it out, want to see whatit's about, do the 15 minute
eval call.
It's no obligation.
Let's get an idea of whereyou're at and let's see what we
(36:57):
could do for you.
Yeah, yeah, I so much hope.
I think that.
Can you see over there in thebottom the left screen?
Yes, bottom left corner, whereit's got a time?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Can you see that, cuz I know we just ordered glasses
right now, but mine is worsewait in the first thing on the
bottom.
Yeah, you see 37 minutes and 40seconds.
We're done here, okay.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
We're done here 37 minutes talking about
epigenetics.
Oh man, if you are listening ona podcast platform that takes
reviews, please give us fivestars if you enjoy this podcast.
It helps other dog owners findus and listen and help their
dogs.
Feel free to follow us over onInstagram.
We're putting content up prettymuch daily and we're changing
topics each week.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So last week we talked about Help me Pain
reactivity, and reactivity,which is also what we talked on
a podcast about pain, be thereason why your dog is being
react.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
This week we talked about past trauma affecting
behavior now, so essentiallyepigenetics, and we have some
more content coming out thisweek on the topic and then next
we call on.
I wasn't ready to give aspoiler, but I'm gonna Do it.
Week three we are what arementally stimulating outdoor
(38:13):
activities for dogs?
That's the question we'readdressing the entire week.
So we're gonna cover some funoutdoor activities.
We're gonna cover the sciencebehind it and why it's so
important for them and whatthings to avoid, depending on
how your dog acts during thoseactivities.
May not be for every dog theplot pickings.
So follow us at PaulsonUniversity To check that out.
(38:35):
And again, if you're interestedin just talking with Jamie and
seeing where you're at, and ifit is a good choice for you,
paulson University, comm, youcan book right from that page.
You can check out the pricingand the payment plan options
right from that page and, yeah,we would love to work with you.
That's all I have.
You got anything else you'dlike to contribute?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
No, all good.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Awesome, until next week class dismissed.
Everybody welcome to a podcast for dog people.
I'm John and I'm Jamie and weare your personal dog experts.
We're here to help you betterunderstand your dogs in the wide
spectrum of behaviors theyexhibit, so join us on this
journey to learn everything.
Dog Everybody.
Welcome back to the podcast fordog people by Paulson
(00:20):
University.
This week we're talking aboutcan my dogs past trauma cause
anxiety?
This is a something that weencounter all the time all the
time.
And really it comes down togenetics, more specifically
epigenetics, and I don't thinkwe've ever really gone into
detail.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I don't know why we haven't, because it's literally
it's so important.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It's.
It's a very complex topic thatwe would need to spend hours and
hours and probably bring inexperts to like really cover
properly.
But I was racking my head theother day on how we can, how I
can Adjust my microphone, how Ican like properly Articulate it,
because I had tried to explainit once to you and I was like
(01:03):
all right, I Need to dump thisdown a lot more because this is
too complex, and I think that Ithe real that went out on
Instagram this morning.
I think that that was a decentjob of kind of like trying to as
, as lack of a better words likejust dumb it down as much as
possible.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
No, that's what.
When it comes to dog trainingand behavioral modification, I
find that the more Layman'sterms that we use, people can
really understand.
When we use a lot of scientificterms, it gets lost and it
doesn't really make sense.
So I, you know, I think I wishthere was a better phrase than
dumb it down.
But like, really like, make itsound normal, make, it make it
(01:42):
relatable, make itunderstandable.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So the the Comparison I was able to come up with was
Everybody has like recipe cardsin their house and if you have
old family recipes that havebeen passed down, try and
picture like an old recipe cardand maybe it was like cut out of
a magazine or something.
But then everyone's got thoseones that, like their grandma,
(02:04):
wrote on the side Mm-hmm.
And it'll be like two sticks ofutter instead of one, or, you
know, add an extra pinch of saltor do this or that and is
little, their little tweaks tothat recipe.
So think of DNA as just thisStandardized recipe card, right,
and it's got all theingredients on it and what to do
.
And think of epigenetics asthose little tweaks that
(02:28):
whoever's making baking I thinkI used a baker for that example
Whoever's baking is doing to therecipe, little tweaks that that
to make it their own.
That's what epigenetics are.
It's essentially a turning offor a turning on of genes in the
DNA sequence.
Then it's really what makes youyou and what makes your dog
your dog.
That's why you're differentthan my sister your sister.
(02:51):
It's why Fraternal twins thataren't identical twins are
different, and even identicaltwins go on and one might have
anxiety.
One doesn't.
They live these different livesand it's the same thing for all
living beings that use DNA.
So what turns on and off thesegenes?
It's, it's a lot of things.
(03:12):
There's a lot of factors.
It could be your diet, it couldbe your upbringing, whether or
not you've had trauma in yourpast, and I'm saying your, but
it supplies to dogs as well thatEverything like your, your
experiences in life For humans,whether or not you smoke,
whether or not you engage inthose riskier activities, all
(03:35):
those things affect your genes.
I'm hormone levels affect themand they change over time.
I Wish I knew what study it was, but do you remember we were
listening to one podcast withthat one doctor and she was
talking about how men who havekids, like you, have a man and
(03:55):
woman and if the dad is obese atthe time?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
of like fertilization .
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, then the probability of the child
becoming obese in their lifetimeis significantly higher.
But which I think is crazy butthen when the men they also
studied, they had a group of menlose weight.
They started to remember lostweight and I think it was a
couple months after and theywere.
They were at an ideal weightand they didn't pass on that
(04:22):
gene that gene, that likelihoodwas not as prominent.
So Epigenetics very complex it's.
It's all about the littlenuances in our DNA that makes us
us so obviously that'sconsequential like covering my
face, I forget we're on camera.
Obviously that's consequentialfor our dogs and all the things
that they go through, and weencounter this a lot and we
(04:44):
encountered it with Gracie, ourmost recent boarding dog, and I
think a lot of people strugglewith this.
I think a lot of people Blamethemselves for their dog's
behavior or their dog's anxietyor their dog's aggression, and a
lot of the times it's not evensomething that they're doing
wrong, other than the fact thatthey just don't know how to
provide the dog with theresources that they need To live
(05:07):
a normal life or it's the otherway around, where they just
view the dog's behavior asaggression Versus.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
This is literally how the DNA is made up and they're
really struggling.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Well, I mean, that's.
What I'm saying is that they'renot respond.
They're not personallyresponsible for the dogs
undesired behavior.
The only thing they'repersonally responsible for is
not Doing whatever is needed tobe done to get them better to
get them better for sure.
So that so like a lot of peopleblame themselves, and they
really shouldn't it's just yourdog's DNA, your dog's
epigenetics, so I explain thisto my clients when they're
(05:39):
confused about when I talk aboutthis.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I give an example.
Like women, women, the firsttime you get pregnant you go to
the doctor's.
You have to stay so calm You'rewith child, don't get stressed,
don't exert yourself, don't,don't do crazy things, right,
because you can pass that stressand anxiety onto your baby when
you are literally pregnant withthem, so that can be passed
down While your child is insideof you.
(06:03):
So I I try.
I have a lot of clients thatcome to me like, oh, you know, I
got my dog is a puppy Eightweeks.
And I'm like, oh, so do we knowwhat happened with mom?
Oh well, they were, you know,born on the side of the road.
They were born in a shelter,you know, and they were with mom
.
I'm like that's great, but Momwas so stressed out, wow,
(06:24):
bringing these dogs into theworld, that that gets passed
down.
And it's not to every puppy,right?
Like this is not.
Like with epigenetics, it's notokay.
All eight of these puppies aregonna be super anxious because
mom was anxious when she washaving them.
It's.
It's very like John said,there's so much that goes into
this, so many variables, but themore the ones that come out and
they're a little bit moresensitive.
Those are the ones that are.
(06:45):
We find them to be very, veryintelligent, advanced
intelligence, like literallywatch your every move.
They tend to be more timid ormore reactive or like fight or
flight.
Where is, like some of theother ones, like we always say,
oakley?
Happy dummy he's like, butwhat's going on?
What's happening?
Yeah right, like for him.
I don't think Oakley's anxietyis epigenetical at all.
I think his is abandonmentissues from being abandoned.
(07:07):
I think he was happy go luckythe day he was born and then he
just had things happen to himafterwards, whereas Gracie we
know that she was kind of foundin the woods at three months old
.
We can only imagine that shewas probably a puppy that was
born outside and found yeah.
And she is just petrified oflife.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah, and this isn't the first time that we've
encountered a Puppy, a dog withvery little life experience that
is like appears to be asdamaged as a dog can be.
Obviously, I want you to changenames when we talk about these
dogs that we've dealt with, but,like one of them that really
comes to mind Is the Germanshepherd who I just explained
(07:52):
was like we'll call him Bob.
Call the German shepherd Bob.
Okay, we'll call this Germanshepherd Bob, I think.
When did Bob start working withyou?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Okay, it's 2023.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I don't mean like how old I'm, have old.
Was he when you started, whenyou?
18 months 18 months and theissues were already there.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yes, so he Was a German shepherd from a Amish
breeder.
The situation again.
There's so many variables butBad breeding for sure.
This dog came, came out anxious.
I mean, we went through thewhole spiel, went over.
You know how was he when youfirst got him and this is a much
older couple they really hadreally no business getting this
(08:32):
dog and we've discussed that amillion times.
But he was anxious from day one,very, very reactive, very nippy
, zero to a hundred like wouldgo into Kujo mode very, very
easily and not really come outof it.
He wound up not doing well withvisitors at all.
There were a couplealtercations.
(08:53):
But they also put him throughtwo rounds of a very aversive
Franchise dog training placeover here by us.
When the first time didn't work, they did it again, I don't
know why which did not helpright.
So we have stacked issues.
Now we have epigenetic goal andwe have poor training.
Right, we have aversivetraining.
So he came to me.
Thankfully I was able to winhim over and so was one of my
(09:17):
dog walkers that works for us,thank God.
But it got to the point whereeven our own vet that we work
very closely with her and I hadto have a very long conversation
about Bob and whether he wasdangerous or not and really like
where we were at asprofessionals in our advice and
(09:38):
suggestions to this couple.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, I mean, the dog was dangerous.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
And he was especially dangerous.
I'm saying was is I'm sure he'sstill alive, he's just not with
them anymore.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
He's not with them anymore.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The primary issue in my eyes and in yours and
everybody else that was helpingus with the situations like Dr
Madden, was essentially thatwith the mental state of dad, it
was a.
I explained that as he'sessentially it's like he's
waving around a load of gun andhe has no idea.
Yes, he's very laxadaisicalabout.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Dad had a brain injury a while back and then a
stroke from the brain injury.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So he was just kind of just for would be very
forgetful.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
We'll like leave the front door open and like this
cannot happen.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
This is dangerous.
Someone is going to get hurtand you are going to get sued.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, but I mean, this is a dog that was born with
these issues, just born beingso terrified of life that he
wants to hurt you before you canhurt him, and just comes off.
No bite inhibition though.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
No bite inhibition Like when he bit, he bit you.
He actually ripped, so it's socrazy Like this is what shows
you this is epigenetical andit's definitely a chemical
imbalance.
I was working with him for areally long time at this point
it was probably our sixthsession and I was holding the
leash, we were walking himaround, we were trying to get
him comfortable with thedaughter's older friend Like the
(11:09):
daughter was probably 40.
Her friend, who was also 40.
Walk around the backyard reallycounter conditioning working
with him and he was barking,obviously, and then we needed to
take a break.
I was like he's getting toostressed, so they all stayed in
the backyard and I went and puthim back in the house.
I threw some hot dogs and Iwent to slip out the slider door
.
He came at me like he had neverseen me before and ripped my
(11:31):
leggings.
Thankfully didn't bite me,which I guess was a good bite
inhibition.
I don't know if he just didn'tget me or not.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
He just missed.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I was quick enough, but he definitely ripped my
leggings and when I tell you,like he had just been giving me
kisses and taking treats from meand had been on the leash with
me for a half an hour with noreactivity towards me whatsoever
, so literally the idea of beingleft and left in the house.
He ditched the hot dogs and hewas like attack and slammed into
(11:58):
the glass door as I closed itDo you know what I mean?
And then barked, and barked,and barked and barked Right.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's typically the dogs Like how do you identify a
dog with this kind of issue?
It's typically the dogs thathave very, very irrational
responses to stress and like.
It's not a lot of dogs, butwhen it is.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, it's not often.
It's not often, but when it'swhen it's, you throw medications
at this and there's hardly anyimprovement, that's again where
it gets even more dangerous.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Like he was on a bunch of different types of
medications.
We tried, we literally threwthe kitchen sink at this dog
because nothing was working.
You know, then in my mind I'msaying, okay, like what kind of
quality of life does this dogtruly have?
You know, and it's not hisfault.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
He was a really severe case I mean there's dogs
with.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
He was decently bad.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
There's dogs who have genetic anxiety They've just
inherited it.
That like aren't this bad andare easily managed.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yes, well, the one who stayed with us for a few
days, I'm not gonna use her name.
Just use a fake name Penelope,okay, penelope.
When she went at my face she isanother one who probably has
epigenetical.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yes, for sure, for sure, but she is, she's more
manageable, she's manageable.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Because her parents put so much energy into keeping
the community and her safe.
And that was anotherconversation that me and our vet
had.
Is she dangerous?
And she even said they do sucha good job of keeping her safe.
I am not worried about this one, Whereas Bob she was like, oh
(13:38):
no, I am worried, Good Bob.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Good Bob, is this?
I mean, is it just a matter ofcan we manage this dog to the
point where they're safe, or doyou think that there's a
prognosis of like we can reallyimprove the quality of life
across the board?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think it's cold.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Let's just say, the dogs that are on the more severe
side of the spectrum.
So, like chances are, if you'relistening to this, this isn't
you, but you may.
If you work in the shelterfield, you may encounter these
dogs.
If you're a dog trainer, youmight encounter these dogs.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yeah, so I'm sorry you're distracting me.
What was the question?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
The question was what is the prognosis look like and
can we do things so that theycan lead a totally normal life?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So in Bob's case that home life was impossible for
him to improve.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
It was because of his , because of their family
situation, because of theirsituation.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Not because of him.
If he was in a different homewith more consistency, a younger
couple, less craziness and noone with their own mental issues
going on at home, I think hewould have improved.
Like it could have been to thepoint where they weren't giving
medication properly.
Like it's down to that where Idon't know what the consistency
(14:53):
really looked like and I knowthat the mother was very, very
anxious, so like a lot of thehomework that I was giving them,
they weren't doing so.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So they were afraid to try it.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I think she was really afraid and then she
couldn't rely on her husbandbecause he's not well.
I think he thinks that he'swell, but he's obviously not.
So that becomes even dangerousin a situation right when he
thinks everything's fine, but inreality he gets Bob a little
bit too close to somebody andthen we have a bite on our hands
.
So, I think that's what she wasreally nervous about.
I don't think that she trustedher husband.
So in their family situationthat was an issue.
(15:24):
I don't think that Bob wouldhave succeeded or gotten better
because he literally had thingsstacked against him.
Now in Penelope's situation,they do everything in their
power to keep her comfortable,right.
She is happy, but they will dolittle things to try to get her
to a good place.
They can they continue doingtraining with us.
(15:47):
She did great with Oakley.
I mean, this is a dog who, whenI first met her, wanted to rip
my face off.
And then we got to a pointwhere she could stay here in our
home with us when they neededto leave her with us for five
days.
She wanted pets, wantedaffection, and then when it got
too much she went to snap it myface.
I think she did it to you too,right.
And then afterwards, when shecomes out of the red zone, she's
(16:08):
like, oh my God, what did I do?
Like she is showing remorse.
It's not like she's this, youknow, highly aggressive, I will
not bow down type of situation.
It's when she snapped out ofthat moment she felt really bad
about what she had done.
So she does not do that to herparents.
So I know that she can do it andI'm sure if she spent more time
(16:29):
with us we would have got onthe same playing field with her
parents.
So it's not like she can't doit.
They put a lot of work into it.
They try not too often becausethey don't want to overstress
her, but when they have freetime they'll take her to the
park on off hours when there'snot a lot of people there and
there's like kids in thedistance or people like running
around the track.
They'll work with her for ashort period of time and then
(16:51):
they'll take her home and gether an ice cream cone on the way
.
So it's a good positiveassociation.
So they do and they have worked.
Really she's come a long way.
So, I already know that Penelopehas improved, because if she
hadn't like, they'd still bebanging down my door.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I haven't heard from them in months which we always
say no no, was it no?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
No news is good news.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
No news is good news.
So, yeah, they have definitelyimproved her life.
Now I think it really, like Isaid, so many variables like
that question's kind of loaded,yeah, do I think that they're
okay?
So another example I don't evenremember this dog's name, so,
oh, yes, I do nevermind, I'mgonna call her Sadie.
It is the only dog that I haveever suggested behavioral
(17:38):
euthanasia, the only dog in myyears of doing this.
Okay, and it was because, again, every medication we threw at
her, no response.
She turned on her family.
She would get glassy eyes.
She'd literally go like theshark from Finding Nemo eyes
black, like literally like be ina dead sleep.
(17:58):
Get up and seek them out in thehome.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
So she had a switch.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
She had a switch and it was all three.
It was the husband, the wifeand the son, who was probably 25
.
And it broke them.
I mean, it was a horrible thingthat we had to do.
We worked for months to try toget her to a good place.
We set up safety mechanisms sonobody was getting bit, because
she really had no control overit.
But then when she would comeout of it, she would go right
(18:23):
back to normal and act like itdidn't happen, which was the
problem Like she didn't have anyremorse, she didn't realize
what she had done, like noremembrance of it.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Was it?
This wasn't a rem issue?
Was it Not that I'm?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
aware of, she was seeing the vets at Red Bank.
So I think that they did do anextensive amount of like.
I'm pretty sure Trotter was theone who was working with her,
and Madden, so they wereeverybody.
We were all working togetherand we all kind of came to an
agreement that everybody wasunsafe.
Everybody was unsafe.
You know she and this was fromthe time they adopted her.
(19:02):
You know they worked with herfor, I wanna say, like almost
three years.
They really put a lot of effortinto this but she actually
wound up declining that lastyear a lot.
You know she wasn't that old,she was probably five.
So it was tough.
That was a tough one where Ithink literally like either
something going on in the brain,they did, I'm pretty sure they
(19:23):
did an MRI.
We didn't find any tumors to myknowledge.
But yeah, it was one of the mostsevere cases, because otherwise
she was a lazy dog.
It wasn't like she was highenergy, looking for attention,
like she slept all day and thenwould just wake up, and it was
like it's go time and like momdidn't feel like comfortable
going into the kitchen becausethe kitchen was like a one way.
(19:44):
It's like when you were in thekitchen the only way out was
that one door.
So if she came in cornered momlike mom was kind of screwed.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So it was scary.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
No, it was scary for all of them.
The one who really didn't getbit was the dad, but no, she
came for the son and for the momlike daily Wow.
And with them doing nothing,there was like it wasn't.
Like they walked into the room,like she would just walk down
the stairs and it would be gotime.
It was scary.
Yeah, it was really scary.
So that's the only dog.
I've ever suggested that becausereally at the end of the day
(20:14):
she was also measurable.
She had no quality of life andI think they were feeling guilty
.
It was like they did everythingthey could to help her.
They put in so much effort.
They did like three trainersbefore me and I was kind of like
that last straw in the behaviordepartment and all the other
(20:34):
trainers like we are illequipped to handle this.
But, working with the vets, wewere trying to come up with a
protocol and there was someimprovement, maybe a little bit,
maybe less attempts, because weset up like a different, like
safety protocol, but it doesn'tmean that it really overall
changed much.
The outcome was still theoutcome, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
But and it's a severe case.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It really was.
She wasn't really showingkinship with anybody.
That's when I'm like, okay, wenow we're getting into dangerous
territory where I don't know ifit'll just be one bite.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Kind of reminds me of Fred.
Yeah, absolutely, fred was afighting dog that we had cared
for for two years more Two years.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
When I got there, he was already there for a year.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, so we had gotten him from a dog fighting
ring.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
A pretty severe one.
Yeah, wasn't he called thechampion?
Speaker 1 (21:29):
No, he was not one of the the studs.
They were moved out somewhereremote like a top secret
location but he was definitelyfought quite a bit.
But he always, like we allloved him because we knew him
for two years to care him everyday but he was kind of always
just kind of disassociated in.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Like looked through you.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, he looked through you Like it was never,
like a real bond that you haveto go to dog like a dog that you
take care of every day for twoyears and that you trust like
it's, like it's gravy but youalways with Fred.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
We were always kind of on guard.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, just in case.
Yeah, you could just, you couldjust tell.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
He did show remorse, though.
Remember when we had toeventually euthanize him.
Unfortunately, he got dangerousat the end.
Do you remember right before hewas giving you love and you saw
his face change, so you fellbackwards and.
I held the leash and after hecame out of it he looked
remorseful.
He looked like I can't stop,I'm so sorry and it was sad.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It was really sad he had lended, I think, a couple of
bites on staff.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Like he was declining too.
It was kind of like you said.
It's very similar to the one Iwas just describing.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, so I mean happens, he broke down.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
He was there for too long, and then the other two
that came in.
They wound up going to familiesand yeah, living totally.
I think they were mostly usedfor breeding.
They were definitely fought alittle bit, but not like Fred,
either that or maybe bait.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Maybe, like breeding and bait.
Yeah, something, something,because they had lots of scars.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, but Fred, fred would he broke down the other
two.
They held strong, they did.
They were both kind of happydummies.
They weren't super intelligent,they were Stella can we?
Go home now.
Why are we here?
But Fred, fred was veryintelligent and ginger, ginger
girl love her she wound uphaving Breast cancer Right and
they wound up removing it andshe's still okay.
(23:25):
It moved all ten of her herglands, poor thing, but we're
how amazing to find a familythat was gonna do that for her.
But yeah, fred, unfortunatelywe did.
We had to.
We had to put him down too,because it was he was.
I mean he was.
When he came in he was labeledas dangerous, right, like he was
a fighting dog.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
He was immediately Like no, we're all and then
manager only and then by the endof it it was like everybody's
just wants to walk, fred wellwas like come, come, meet Fred
with me and let's see if helikes you.
Yeah, let's see if he likes you.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
There are some people he didn't like, but you know,
for the most part he was good.
And then you know he declined,he broke down he was in a shit.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
He lived in a shelter environment.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I was so much stressful and he was always in a
back room and you know hedidn't really see, he didn't
really have quality of life.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
So, yes, very similar to that other situation, for
sure so from Instagram, notreally a question, but sort of a
question, but I feel like Ishould just read it and we'll
get our thoughts out on it.
I have a dog who is highlyreactive to other dogs on walks
and his gen in general, slow tosettle, always a bit on edge.
Adopted him very young, at justsix weeks, as his mother astray
(24:29):
, was badly abused and needed tobe hospitalized and had to be
away from Her puppies early.
I've always wondered if, if histraumatic young life impacted
his reactive nature.
Now he is three years old.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Oh, that's so relatable to this topic.
Oh my god, did you ask aquestion about abgenetics?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
No, it was just a comment on the epigenetics post.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Okay, All right, interesting, that's that's I
mean.
I'm glad they gave all thatinformation too, because that's
super helpful.
Yeah, six weeks Taken away frommom, super young mom was abused
and injured when giving birth,like that, you know, like that's
, that's tough.
And then if she's injured likeeven I always think about this
(25:06):
right, like I I'm I was.
I have two boys.
I breastfed them both and Iknow any.
Even the smidge of Stress thatI would experience would
immediately drop my milk supply.
So you can imagine for a dogit's probably the same way while
trying to feed X amount ofpuppies right.
Right now, not only are you in acrappy situation, you have like
(25:30):
no protection, shelter or likeresources given to you around
the clock like our normal dogsare.
Now, these puppies maybe have areduced milk supply and trying
to survive, you know, and thenwe like there's so many issues
that can plug from this and theamount of stress that a puppy
may feel being underfed yeah, orbeing Six weeks old and taken
(25:53):
from mom.
That's a huge, huge thing.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
You've missed, I want to say, two key developmental
periods of life that they havenow missed out on that, where
they need mom and they needtheir siblings Absolutely.
So, like a lot of times, we'llsee issues with bite inhibition
because they never learned howto properly Play bite and they
never learned how hard is toohard with their teeth.
That's a popular thing We'llsee.
And then, yeah, they kind oflike just general anxiety and
(26:17):
reactivity.
All stems from past lifeexperiences and fear, and so you
have whatever Mom may or maynot have passed down genetically
, and then you have the traumaexperienced firsthand At such a
young age.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, it's entirely Understandable for your dog to
be going through that and that'swhy people, when, when they
come to me for one-on-onetraining, I always explain to
them that first session has tobe virtual and this is why I
Need to know all of this.
A lot of people want to come inperson immediately and I always
say I need to.
Before Any physical training,before I do anything with the
(26:56):
dog, I need to know what are.
What are they up againstMentally?
What are they dealing with thatcould attribute to the issues
that they are giving you.
That all matters, right, like aHuman going to therapy.
If they have an abusive past,that's the first thing the
therapist is gonna ask you about.
Tell me about that.
(27:17):
What happened to you, so we canunderstand why you act this way
.
Now, right, so it's so foreignto people.
I talk about this with dogtraining but, like with therapy,
like, oh yeah, that makes totalsense.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Right, it's the same thing when there's smoke,
there's fire.
So if there's there's somethingthat's kind of keying you off
on the on your dog's history,you might want to take a look
into that.
Or even what's going on or inyour home or you know anything
that could hit, that could keyyou in on something.
You should really narrow downand try and explore that a
little more.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, my main thing is like I really want people to
ever the everyday people withyour everyday dogs.
Just think about your dog andthink about how they act, the
things that you don't like ortheir little anxiety quirks or
the way that you know, just ingeneral, how they function as a
dog, and think about how theywere brought up, what their
situation was prior to you, andI will tell you if you got your
(28:09):
dog from a breeder, you got themyoung, it doesn't matter.
There's still six to eightweeks that they were with
somebody else other than you.
Okay, so like, lose the hole.
I got my dog as a puppy thing.
Because that that's not a, it'snot a good example of why your
dog should be okay, right,that's a long two months that
someone could have been not niceto them lack of resources,
(28:30):
heavy hands, mean sibling andthere was no mom to help them
out right, like.
There are so many things thatcould have happened in those six
to eight Weeks prior to youthat will attribute to how they
act now.
So I really want you to look atit and say, okay, what could
possibly be going on?
So we have a little bit moreempathy for our dogs, because
it's about how we act to right.
If we're so frustrated with ourdogs thinking that they're
(28:52):
doing XYZ just because they wantto be annoying, that doesn't
help you with training, yeah,that.
That puts you in a place whereyou don't want to change.
You don't want to help becausenow you're feeling resentful.
Well, your mind is closed, sonow you're not gonna, you're not
gonna be able to identify andyou're not gonna be able to pick
your battle either, like you'renot gonna be able to say, okay,
(29:12):
this is really not that big ofa deal, right, you're just gonna
think that every single thingthis dog does you need to
reprimand.
Mm-hmm and really you'respinning your wheels, if not
making it worse.
So you have to look at thehistory and if anybody's ever
questioning, like doing aconsult with me or Attempting,
you know, one-on-one trainingwith me, that stuff matters to
your progress and that's why Ido it, because that's what's
(29:36):
necessary.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I need to know it's interesting because Having this
inherited genetic Issue is not.
It's not gonna change much asfar as what our plan is on On
doing behavior modification.
So it's not.
It's not like super criticalthat you identify, because it's
not even something that you.
There's no test for it, it'sreally mostly just excluding
(29:58):
other things and then you'relike, well, it could be from
past on from mom, it could betrauma from from early puppyhood
, doesn't really matter.
All it does is kind of give usa little more of an answer as to
why things are happening, whichkind of helps us tweak a little
bit.
But for the most part I feellike the behavior modification
plans going to be the same.
We just need to understand itmight take a little longer.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Oh, can I give an example?
Yeah of how that might changemy plan sure.
Um, we talked about himyesterday, so we're gonna change
his name.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
We're gonna call him Philip okay, I still don't know
who this young couple came to me.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I know first time dog , not first time dog owners okay
, never had a dog before theydecided to get an Aussie
shepherd.
They get this dog From a vettech.
Okay, she bred her, her Aussieshepherd.
She did not tell them that herdog was on medication and was
extremely reactive, which isfrowned upon.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
This is exactly why you should not be breeding a dog
, that you should not.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
That is so frowned upon in the breeding community.
Not that we are pro breedingwhatsoever, but you, if you have
a dog who has behavioral issues, you have no right.
You are literally passing thaton.
Okay, so they picked up Philip,nine weeks old.
Bring him home.
He's petrified.
(31:22):
He cried the entire way home,he was drooling, he was throwing
up.
That was it was just her andher other guy friend, because
dad was on a business trip.
Dad came home the next day.
She met him in the garage withPhilip.
He screamed, jumped out of herarms, hit in the corner and poop
, pooped and pissed himself atnine weeks old.
(31:42):
Okay, now, knowing thisinformation, like she, the mom
met the mother of Philip and sawhow, how reactive she was to
them coming into the home tobegin with.
Right, that tells me thatPhilip is going to need
intervention from pharmaceuticalintervention I, I know, maybe
(32:06):
not immediately because he's sofrickin young at this point what
they came to me.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
He was probably he was like six months, yeah, eight
months.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
He might have been eight months and I said listen,
with this situation, workingwith the vet, I want to see what
they say.
Is it worth waiting till a year?
A lot of times that's want towait till a year to put a dog on
medication, but if this dog isexperiencing what we know it's
experiencing from theinformation that we have, they
may do it Prior to try to avoidmore issues.
Not saying every vet would wantto do that, that every situation
(32:36):
is very yes, it depends on whatthe vet wants, but in and in
Philip's case, the vet was ahundred percent on board with
that and was like, oh my god,yes, give him a fighting chance.
They also went through foraverse of trainers before
finding me.
So, this dog was in really,really rough shape, but that is
a hundred percent epigeneticaland it and it did change what I
(33:00):
was gonna do and when I wasgonna do it.
So just that's a.
That's a very specific examplebut, like you're right, a lot of
it, the information, it may notchange at a hundred percent.
Like if I know, like, like withGracie, right, like she was
found in the woods and she seemsa little bit fearful of crates,
like I'm not gonna push heradopters to a hundred percent
(33:22):
crate train her if we thinkthat's gonna literally spark a
whole another slew of anxietythat she already has.
Right, so they're working onjust putting a baby gate in the
bedroom.
That she says it and she'sdoing fabulously right, we're
not gonna create a problem wherea problem doesn't already exist
, because we already know thatshe is very, very sensitive.
So that you know, like thingslike that, I'm gonna tread
(33:45):
lightly in certain situations,right.
So, yes, the more informationthat people give me, the better,
because it will tweak slightlywhat I'm doing, but it's not
gonna change everythingdrastically.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Okay, yeah, so there you go.
If you're dealing with this,you have Some hope yes, oh, my
god, there's so much hope aslong as you are willing to put
in the work.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yes, if you're, if you're willing to have empathy
for your dog and what they'veexperienced, and understanding
that, like they can't, theycan't process it the way that we
can.
Right, like we can go totherapy, we can talk it out.
They can't, so we have to workit out for them.
They do not have a choice.
Unless we give them that choice.
Mm-hmm, right, like your dog'snot gonna go off for an hour at
(34:27):
night, go get my, go get my shittogether.
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go talkit out in my head have a drink
need.
They need help from us to getthrough these issues.
So if you want this to change,it needs to start with you and
understanding that your anybehavior your dog is giving you
is not for the reasons why youthink they're giving it to you.
So we have to play detectiveand we have to get down to the
(34:50):
bottom of it, come with aprotocol and Really just move
forward, trying to make progressin these little areas to
improve their, their life andyour life.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So is this something you can work on virtually.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Oh, hundred percent.
So it's what I do day in andday out.
So really a lot like.
I just had a consult today withwith someone who the dog is
petrified, won't leave the houseVisitors coming and they just
rescued her, like maybe a monthago, and I literally said I'm
like, listen, you can come hereif you want to, but getting her
in the car is already a problem.
(35:21):
I said let's not even worryabout that, right, that'll be
like our end goal getting her inthe car, getting her
comfortable with with the car,meeting Oakley, like.
That's like session four andfive, hopefully, but our first
three sessions will most likelybe virtual because she don't
want to leave the house yet,right, like, and I'm working on
getting all the informationthose 45 minutes To the mom and
(35:42):
dad to help her on a daily basis.
That's my number one goal is toget the parents on board.
The humans have to understandwhat in the world they're doing.
It's less on her and it's moreon them, which a lot of people
don't want to hear, but it is.
She can't do it, right, sothere's gonna be a lot of
desensitization, encounter,conditioning, and you know it's.
(36:02):
It's gonna be a lot on them andit's really, how can I take
each 45 minute session and givethem as much as much information
and understanding of exactlywhat I need them to do, as if I
was there, as if I was the mom?
I'm gonna give you everything.
So, yes, 95% of what I do isvirtual.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So then someone wants to work with you.
Very, very affordable, yes,payment plans as well, but
possum university calm.
And then you can just book afree 15 minute evaluation call
right from the website.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
It's literally free.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Jamie will call you personally and just kind of chat
about your dog with theexpectations of our like our
program is and you know whichoption is best for you.
So if you're dealing with thisand you're just kind of want to
check it out, want to see whatit's about, do the 15 minute
eval call.
It's no obligation.
Let's get an idea of whereyou're at and let's see what we
(36:57):
could do for you.
Yeah, yeah, I so much hope.
I think that.
Can you see over there in thebottom the left screen?
Yes, bottom left corner, whereit's got a time?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Can you see that, cuz I know we just ordered glasses
right now, but mine is worsewait in the first thing on the
bottom.
Yeah, you see 37 minutes and 40seconds.
We're done here, okay.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
We're done here 37 minutes talking about
epigenetics.
Oh man, if you are listening ona podcast platform that takes
reviews, please give us fivestars if you enjoy this podcast.
It helps other dog owners findus and listen and help their
dogs.
Feel free to follow us over onInstagram.
We're putting content up prettymuch daily and we're changing
topics each week.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So last week we talked about Help me Pain
reactivity, and reactivity,which is also what we talked on
a podcast about pain, be thereason why your dog is being
react.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
This week we talked about past trauma affecting
behavior now, so essentiallyepigenetics, and we have some
more content coming out thisweek on the topic and then next
we call on.
I wasn't ready to give aspoiler, but I'm gonna Do it.
Week three we are what arementally stimulating outdoor
(38:13):
activities for dogs?
That's the question we'readdressing the entire week.
So we're gonna cover some funoutdoor activities.
We're gonna cover the sciencebehind it and why it's so
important for them and whatthings to avoid, depending on
how your dog acts during thoseactivities.
May not be for every dog theplot pickings.
So follow us at PaulsonUniversity To check that out.
(38:35):
And again, if you're interestedin just talking with Jamie and
seeing where you're at, and ifit is a good choice for you,
paulson University, comm, youcan book right from that page.
You can check out the pricingand the payment plan options
right from that page and, yeah,we would love to work with you.
That's all I have.
You got anything else you'dlike to contribute?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
No, all good.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Awesome, until next week class dismissed.
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