Virtue, Stoicism & Sports with William O. Stephens and Nick Davis

In this episode: Professor, philosopher and scholar of Stoicism William O. Stephens speaks with recently graduated football coach and Stoic practitioner Nick Davis about the analogy between team sports and the ethical/theological ideas found in Stoicism.  Learn more about Professor William O. Stephens: williamostephens.com ABOUT THE WALLED GARDEN The Walled Garden Philosophical Society is a global community of philosophers and students gathering in search of truth, wisdom, virtue and the Divine. There are many ways to get involved: Attend Events: thewalledgarden.com/events Find a Philosophical Mentor: thewalledgarden.com/mentoring Explore Our Groves: thewalledgarden.com/groves Become a Member: thewalledgarden.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode Transcript

(00:15):
Everybody, thank you so much forshowing up today. This is a beautiful
opportunity to welcome not only one,but two guests into the World Garden here,
and I'll just do a brief introductionof both. I probably don't really
need to say much about William Stevenshere, Professor William Stevens, because he's
been on the show a few times. And I will actually say that,

(00:38):
man, some of my favorite conversations, especially the last one that we had
on the World Garden, have beenwith William, and I've been honored to
have him on the show. Heis a philosopher and has spent his life
in academia as well, author ofmultiple books, including a couple that I
have here which I was very excitedto get Marcus Aurelius, A Guide for

(01:00):
the Perplexed, right There we Go, and also Stoic ethics, There we
Go, Epictetus and Happiness as Freedom. So this one here, and so
William has just a phenomenal understanding ofthe Stoic philosophy slash theology, and if
anybody wants to get a deeper understandingof that and get to know his thinking

(01:23):
a little bit more on that matter, definitely dive into the previous conversation that
we had. Now when it comesto Nick Man, I got to know
this young man. He's only afew young years younger than me, but
I'm still I guess still got tosay that. But I got to know
Nick a few months back. Westarted talking, and it's just been such
an honor to get to know him. He's a very talented young coach,

(01:47):
athletics, sports coach and at themoment coaching football, right, soccer,
soccer, Yeah, okay, that'sright. Okay for the European out there,
that's right. And so in ourtime together, we've spent a lot
of time discussing this kind of metaphorof virtue as it relates to the football

(02:09):
team. And I really do thinkthat if anybody after this episode wants to
go back and yeah, listen tothat previous conversation that I had with William,
I think that's actually it's actually anappropriate place to start for today,
because you know, last time wewere discussing this idea found in stoicism,

(02:30):
that there is this kind of totality, the wholeness, the oneness of which
we're all a part of. Inour last soul searching with Seneca, we
called it the big soup. We'reall swimming around in this, in this
cosmic soup. And then outside ofthe oneness or within the oneness, there

(02:52):
is a fragmentation. There is apart to whole relationship with everything. And
with my conversations with Nick Man,we had so much. It was so
meaningful to discuss this idea that asports team. It's such a perfect picture
of this very idea because you havethe totality, you have the wholeness of

(03:14):
the team, but then even largerthan that, you've got the you know,
both teams, and then you've gotthe game and then it just get
you to the audience, all thissort of stuff. But then you've got
the parts. What is each persondoing within that team and how do they
relate to the whole. And soI don't know, Maybe I'm going to
stop talking for a moment and say, Nick, would you like to start

(03:35):
and just introduce yourself a little bitmore, and then William do the same,
and then we'll just see where wego with this conversation and maybe it
around maybe in forty five minutes orso, we'll we'll open it up to
a bit of a Q and aand see if we can open up the
conversation. So Nick, take itawayment, Yeah, thanks for that intro.
Yeah, I think I'm really excitedto have William on because when I

(03:58):
was doing I wrote my undergrad dissertationon stoicism and sports coaching UM. And
one of the one of the bestarticles I read and like it was the
only article I printed out and youknow, highlighted annotated UM. Was an
article written by by William and oneof his colleagues at Creighton UM called the
Stoic Can a Cubs fan be astoke sportsman? Or how can a Cubs

(04:21):
fan? Um? You know,really truly be a stoic? UM?
And it was. It's just afantastic piece. It was super interesting to
me UM, and so I'm I'mjust excited to have him on the show.
But yeah, I wrote that's youknow, I really got into stoicism
writing about sports coaching and how stoicismcan relate to coaching. UM. But

(04:46):
there's there's three parts in sports UM, in terms of looking at philosophically.
You have the fan, you havethe coaches, and you have the players.
So how how do each of those? Like Simon says, contribute to
that soup. Um, how canhow can those pieces act virtuously in the
sporting sets? And what does thatlook like? Um? So William all

(05:09):
handed over to you. That's kindof what I'm looking for today. Thank
you, Nick, you're you're you'revery kind, Timmon, you're much too
kind and generous. Really delighted tobe talking with all of you today.
It's a great opportunity for me.It's a lot of fun. So my
thanks to all of you. MYeah, I I as as somebody growing
up in Indiana, in the heartlandof basketball mania, I've been drawn to

(05:34):
sports since I was a kid,like many of us have. I wanted
to be good at basketball. Iwas good at tennis, and I quickly
after one day on the football practicefield, I realized very quickly that was
not the sport for me. Butreflecting on sport and then learning Stoicism,

(05:58):
I was delighted to learn that Epictetusand Marcus, Cerelius and Seneca as well
use these different sport analogies often.So for today's talk, it might maybe
it'll help at least me organize mythoughts to think about the two different dimensions

(06:19):
of the relationship between stoicism and Stoicvirtue and sports, So one of them
is moving from stoicism to sport.In other words, how does someone who
is drawn to stoicism and trying toapply Stoic ideas to her daily living,

(06:44):
how does that stoic in training approachsports, think about sports, engage in
sports, and evaluate sports, andthen the relationship goes the other way.
Right, So what kind of sportimagery analogy similes do we find in ancient

(07:05):
Stoic writings that are taken from sport? And how do these sport examples or
sport analogies in form Stoic living,because they do and they're very popular.
And Epictetus, but Marcus also talksabout wrestling. Right, Epictetus and Marcus

(07:30):
talk about how one way to thinkabout your relationship in the world from part
to whole. As you were sayingSimon, with this kind of meriology,
the relationship between parts and wholes isthat God or nature the world has a
sign to you a very tough,young, strong wrestler. And so challenges

(07:58):
that you have in life, socalled adversities, are opportunities for you to
become a better wrestler. How doyou wrestle with problems. How do you
wrestle with challenges in the right sortof way? Right, And it's significant
that they don't use in this contextmartial language. That is, it's not

(08:22):
a military sort of thing. Whenyou face adversities, you're not squared off
against an enemy, right, andso on the sporting field, on the
basketball court, or the football field, the soccer field, whatever tennis court,
you're not facing an enemy. It'snot combat. It's a wrestling partner

(08:45):
who's challenging you to develop your ownskills, right, to get better as
a wrestler. Right, Which iswhy you know, at the end of
these sporting events, if you've donethe right, you congratulate your opponents,
You have respect for your opponents,and the stoics are projecting this to our

(09:07):
relationship to the world. Right.Bad things, you know, what makes
them bad is your judgment that they'rebad. So to see them not as
tragedies or hardships, but as opportunitiesor challenges to improve your skill at coping,

(09:28):
at wrestling to become a better wrestler. Well, you know that's how
you practice to get better. Ifyou want to be a better wrestler,
you don't wrestle with someone half yourweight who's not as good as you are,
right you wrestle against you. Youwant as a wrestling partner at somebody
who's a little better than you are, a little stronger than you are,

(09:48):
so you can hone your skills.So that's one of the that's one of
the many kind of Stoic analogies theyuse. So so, which, Simmy,
did you want to I mean,do we want to focus on moving
from sport analogies to stoicism or howStoics approach sport? Because we can,

(10:09):
we can do both. But wherewould you like to start. I'm happy
to keep on going along either way, wherever you think he's most appropriate.
Well, I mean, one thingI could throw out is approaching things from
how a Stoic approaches sport, andand Nick, you know, I'll want,

(10:31):
you know, definitely want your perspectiveon this. But you know,
one text we have in Marcus's meditationsis you know he he he chides himself
for, you know, caring aboutwhether one chariot team wins or another.
He says, it doesn't matter whetherit's the Blues or the Greens that win

(10:52):
the chariot race, and you knowwhat that means. And Epictetus has similar
ideas that you know, similar textsin which he says, if you're rooting
for someone who's performing, I thinkas an example as a singer, but
it holds for sports too. Ifyou're rooting for one team and you identify

(11:13):
with that team as a fan,Right, I'm a Chicago Cubs fan.
Right. If I get upset orsad or even disappointed when the Cubs lose,
then I'm a fool. Right.It means I'm totally clueless. Why
because as we all know, it'sonly a game. And what does that

(11:33):
mean? It means the outcome ofthe game doesn't matter at all. It's
utterly trivial in the context of life. What matters is virtue and doing everything
you can to live a virtuous lifeand avoiding vice and evil in your actions
and thoughts and intentions at all costs. Everything else doesn't matter. Right,

(11:58):
It's indifferent. And so whenever yousee someone like so, here we are
in January, right, so,and another couple of months in March,
it'll be March maddess and NCAA collegebasketball, And what are you gonna see
when these games end? And theypan. The television image pans to the

(12:20):
crowd and goes up close to thestudents, right to my Creton, my
old Creton students. If Creton getseliminated in the tournament, and they zoom
in on the cheerleaders. And thisis not to pick on the cheerleaders,
but what's gonna what are you gonnasee? You're gonna see fans weeping because

(12:43):
their team lost a basketball game.From the stock perspective, this is lunacy.
This is not a tragedy. It'snot even bad. Now that takes
you aback because you think, well, but wait, then, what do
stoicism have to do with sports?If the stoics hold that the outcome of

(13:05):
any sporting event, any kind ofcontest like that, any sort of game,
is utterly trivial and unimportant, whatcan stoicism have to say in a
positive way about sport? Well quitea lot, right, because although the
outcome of the contest doesn't matter atall, what you do to get ready

(13:28):
for it in your role, asNick said, either as a coach or
as a player, or as atrainer, right or as a fan,
how you conduct yourself during the gamematters a lot. It matters a lot.
Are you treating your opponents with respect? Are you trying to cheat?

(13:52):
Are you whining and complaining and bellyachingto the referees? Any sort of complaint
to the referee, Any sort ofcriticism of your teammates or your coach or
your assistant coach, any sort oftrash talking on the court. All of
these are rejected as beyond the paleby a stoic. Your job, if

(14:16):
you're a player, is to preparefor the contest the best you can.
Focus on what's up to you duringthe game and be the best player you
can be on the court or onthe field. Be a good teammate,
listen to your coach, and workon your virtuosic skills of being a great

(14:41):
ball player or a great tennis player. Right, once you hit the tennis
ball, once you shoot the basketball, once you kick the soccer ball,
it's beyond your control. What yourteammates do, what the fans do,
if they're throwing garbage you know fromthe stands, that's beyond your control.
How are you going to deal withit? Answer? You gotta deal with

(15:05):
it virtuously. Focus on what's upto you. Right, So sto sasn't
really has a lot to say abouthow to be a virtuous participant fan.
Right, if you're a fan,what does appetite to say? What does
he say? Right? He says, if you're watching a contest, who

(15:28):
should you root for? You shouldroot for the team that does win to
win, and then you won't bedisappointed. Hi, friends, we'll be
right back with this episode. Butfirst I wanted to let you know that
most of the conversations that you hearon this show were recorded live at events
and workshops in the World Garden PhilosophicalSociety. We are so grateful for the

(15:52):
quality of our guests and the kindof conversations that we get to have at
these events, and we'd like toinvite you to attend and join the conversation.
Our events feature contributing philosophers of theWalled Garden, as well as world
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(16:14):
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(16:37):
forward slash events to register today.We look forward to seeing you then,
but for now, enjoy the restof this episode. Now, I'm going
to push back very very slightly,and then I really want to bring Nick
into this right because Nick, I'dlove you to dive into kind of the

(17:00):
conversations that we were having about justthe layers upon layers upon layers within the
kind of you know, maybe you'vegot the individual in the team who then
corresponds to and participates in the teamas a whole, and then you've got
the coaches and the managers, andthen you've got the audience. But even

(17:21):
just the audience side of things,I think sometimes stoicism. While the now,
when we're being very specific with thephilosophy, it makes sense, logical
sense. But I tell you,one of the first things that I did
when I came over here to Americais I went to a classic American baseball
game, and oh my gosh,I'm sitting there in the stand. I

(17:44):
bought myself the Anaheim Angel's hat.You know, I'm wearing it. I've
got a Budweiser Freedom Beer. I'mfully American, you know. And I'm
sitting up there in the stand andI'm loving this game, and you know,
I'm rooting for the Angels, andthere was something about it that is
there's something about it that is sobeautiful to see just in the audience side

(18:08):
of things. From my cat's beenover here and there's hairs everywhere. Now,
okay, so just sitting in theaudience and seeing, Wow, look
at all of these people who arejust sitting here having a great day out,
really enjoying this game, supporting theirteam. You know, everybody is
getting drunk. It's just it's,you know, there's a bit of madness.

(18:32):
I swear to you. The fiveminutes that I walked out to get
the cap is the five minutes whenthe entire team on the field had a
big brawl. And it was evenin all the newspapers and everything, I
missed it, right, But tome, there's something about it makes logical
sense that as if you're sitting thereas a stoic like Seneca, you know,

(18:52):
he said he'd go to the gamesnot to watch what was happening in
the center, but actually just towatch the people. Right, So maybe
if you're going there as a stoic, you're thinking, great, I really
want the best team to win,and that's appropriate. Nonetheless, I'm not
so I wouldn't say I'm cynical ofthe just getting into it, allowing yourself
to have that output of that I'mgoing to the game, I'm going to

(19:17):
get into it. I'm going tosupport the team. And we've actually talked
about this, I know, Nick, just this idea that even the fans
have a responsibility or a part toplay within the whole of what's happening in
this arena at the moment. Maybeyou could just speak a little bit to
that kind of idea of like thewhole and then the parts, especially as

(19:37):
somebody who's who's coached teams. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I think that,
you know, part of the joyof playing sports, especially at at
the professional level, and part ofthe reason a lot of people want to
play at the professional level. It'sjust that energy, just you know,
going to the stadium, hearing thefans, everybody getting excited when a big
play happens like there's it just bringsyou know a lot of of joy into

(20:03):
that um stadium or arena or whatever, which is a very stillic concept.
You know, we we live likewe live to um, you know,
to be happy and to produce joy, a deep, deep joy that um
that sports you know, in somemoments can can really give you UM.

(20:23):
And and you can't you can't havethat. I think COVID really showed what
was a great example of what happenswhen you take the audience out of the
sport. You know, it's it'sa completely different atmosphere. And UM.
What's funny is that I think therecord for you know, home home teams
didn't win as much as they normallydo during the COVID period and I and

(20:48):
I think a lot of that actuallyhas to do with the fact that it's
you know, just because you wereplaying on your field in your city,
you didn't have that energy, thatenvironment. Um, you didn't have the
whole um piece. So uh yeah, I think definitely, UM, when
you're talking about sports and how importantthe fan is and how important it is

(21:10):
for them to you know, actresponsibly and appropriately and virtuously, because there
are certainly times when when people don'tand um, you know those you know,
when you have a possibility for joy, it also brings the possibility for
for the opposite, um And andWilliam to your point too, I want

(21:32):
to I want to kind of bringin the fan on on an individual level,
because you know, a stoic mightsay, it doesn't matter, we
root for the team who wins.Right. But there's another part where when
you are attached to a team,and this is um, I was just
reading your your article earlier before this, and you know, when when you

(21:52):
are attached to your team, andthe Chicago Cubs is a great example because
they're known for losing, you know, especially you know before twenty sixteen when
they won the World Series. They'reknown for losing. And when you're attached
to their team, you get topractice stoicism by suffering, by losing,
by being attached to a team thathas lost. And how do you respond

(22:15):
to that? How do you act? How do you feel? Obviously that
impulse first is going to be disappointmentor to spare right, it's those impulses
that the stoics say, those arethe very first emotions that we feel that
we can't control those, right,we feel them, but how do we
act upon them? Right? Ifwe're throwing garbage onto the field because our
team lost, Right, that's that'snot virtuous. But we can train to

(22:40):
become more virtuous through the suffering orthrough the joy of winning. How do
we act when we win? Youknow? What? What kind of ban
are we when when things go well? So? I think I think that
there is an importance in sports tobeing attached to a team for wanting them
to win, whether they went ornot, because it's a training ground as

(23:03):
a fan. You know, wetalk all the time about an athlete.
You how athletics is a training groundfor the athlete to practice being virtuous,
but it's also for the fan andto deal with those emotions that they might
they might deal with outside of sportstoo. Yeah, that's that's good,
Nick. Yeah. So within theclass of indifference, right, the stoics

(23:27):
distinguished preferred from dispreferred. So youcan be virtuous whether you're a healthy or
sick. But as long as itdoesn't compromise your wisdom and temperance and courage
and your other virtues to strive tobe healthy, then you prefer health.
Right. There might be some circumstancesin which you would prefer illness, but

(23:51):
ordinarily you prefer health. It's anice suggestion to think of your own sports
team as its success. Let's callit its success rather than it's winning its
success, as they preferred, anddifferent. I prefer it when my Cubs
play well. If they play welland lose to a better team that played

(24:15):
better that day, then the stoicfan is going to celebrate the superior baseball
excellence of the Cardinals, who onceagain defeated my Chicago Cubs. Right.
But sometimes the Cubs come from behindand they play better and they defeat the
Cardinals, and so I can celebratethe excellence of coming from behind to win,

(24:41):
as you said, endurance, rightwhen you've lost a series of games,
but then you're trying to turn yourseason around. But notice that those
are those are virtues of the gameplayed out during the game, in contrast
to the outcome, the final score. The Stokes would say, you should

(25:03):
be emotionally detached from What you shouldroot for is a good game. And
if you see an excellent play onthe field, you celebrate that, whether
it's your team or your opponents.Right, and you can cheer more I
suppose when your team is doing betterand cheer maybe a little less when the

(25:23):
other team is doing better, aslong as as long as when the game
is over, you go home anddon't stew over the mistakes that your team
made and you mope about your teamhaving lost. Right, is that a
distinction we can make? Right?Similarly, with the players, you're fulfilling
your role as a player by leavingit all out there, as we say,

(25:47):
on the field, playing the bestyou can, being the best teammate
you can, honing your skills onthe field, try trying to be a
good teammate, a good baseball player, or whatever. But when that game
is over, you leave that equipmentbehind and you resume another one of your
roles as a sister or a motheror a daughter or whatever, right,

(26:07):
or as a co worker. Becausee. Pictetius talks about all these different
roles, whatever role that you have, you should try to perform it.
Well, that's up to you,that's your duty, right. But what
happens between the lines on the fieldonce the game is over, it doesn't
matter. What matters is the virtuesthat you carry through all of the different

(26:27):
spheres of your activities, whether you'replaying a game of chess or a game
of baseball or soccer, or whetheryou're parenting right, caring for a child,
or you're transporting people in a busbecause that's your job, right,
So that's where virtue is going tomanifest itself. And yeah, I mean

(26:49):
as a fan, you're a memberof a community absolutely, right. So
it's a community activity and you feelthat solidarity and that shared interest rooting for
the preferred and different of your teamdoing well. But what what measures success?
Though? It's not the final scoreon my interpretation of Stoic philosophy's sport,
right, it's how well the gameis played, because there are things

(27:12):
that I mean, you can kicka field goal and it can be you
know, going right through the uprights, and then there can be a huge
gust of wind and buffalo that blowsit just to the side and you missed
the field goal and it's a wideright. And you know, from the

(27:33):
stock perspective, if you're the kicker, how should you feel if you did
everything that was up to you thatyou could to prepare to kick well during
the game, and you know youdid the best you could. That's what's
up to you. If you missedthe field goal because of a gust of
wind. That doesn't make you abad kicker. That just means that zeus,

(27:57):
God, Nature, Providence had anotheridea about the outcome of that kick.
It's not up to your opponents.It's not up to you and your
coach and your teammates. The wind, the weather conditions, this is up
to nature. It's not up toyou. Yeah, and and that's a

(28:19):
you know, as a coach,that's something that I tell my kids.
You know, they're I've got aU nine boys team and U ten girls
team, so they're they're young.But you know what I tell them before
every game, and what we workedon this season is, look, we
don't go out there. Our focusisn't to win, like we're out there
to compete, yes, but we'renot focused on the score. What we're

(28:41):
focused on is playing the best soccerwe can. And that's that's the phrase
that I use with them. Itis, you know, we're we are
focused on doing the best we can. And I you know, I broke
it down to an individual level withthem because when we do warm ups,
we do sprints, and you know, because there nine ten years old,

(29:02):
I make it into a race,right, So they sprint all the way
to me and they high five me, and then they go back. And
at the start, I noticed thatevery time they would sprint, they would
look over to the other person tosee if they were beating them right now
there, And I could tell thattheir heads were Am I going to win?
Right there? They were attached tothe winning. So I pulled them
all in and I said, don'tlook across to the other person, because

(29:26):
whether or not you can run fasterthan them, it doesn't matter. Right,
you can run as fast as youcan and they could still be faster
than you. Look straight ahead andfocus on running as fast as you can
and that's and and that's as ateam, then playing the best soccer we
can. But yeah, to yourpoint, right, it's not about winning.

(29:48):
But I do really believe that ifyou do focus on playing the best
soccer you can, you're gonna you'regonna probably win more games. You're probably
gonna have that external success if you'refocused on those internals. Yeah, No,
that's an excellent point. I mean, what I like to say is
the person you're really competing against isnot your opponent, but who you were

(30:10):
last week. If you can runa little faster than you could last week,
then that's progress. That's the kindof Olympic Games. Olympic athlete training
in serious dedication that Epictetus talks aboutis necessary for making progress in philosophy.
As a stoic, right, youhave to have the dedication of an Olympic

(30:32):
athlete and not you know, I'msorry, but not an NFL you know,
football player or baseball player. TheseOlympic athletes, holy cow right there.
They're at peak physical shape and theycompete once every four years. So
you're talking about practice, right,I remember the famous Allen iverson practice.

(30:53):
You're asking me about practice, practice, matters, practices, everything, right.
The team that practices better is goingto get is going to improve.
And yes, it seems natural tomeasure improvement and progress in terms of the
final score. But that's very dangerousbecause you know, referees can make bad

(31:18):
calls, and you know some teamsrecruit better than others and they have bigger
athletes. So like you're saying,yeah, you want you want your players
to improve as players improving their skills, and it's very seductive to think,
well, how well are we doing? Well? What's our record? How

(31:38):
many wins and losses do we have. This is very dangerous in terms of
measuring stoic progress because as a goodperson we don't have wins and losses that
are quantified numerically on a scoreboard.Right, we have opportunities to not get

(31:59):
angry. That's a loss from thepoint of view of stoic ethics. When
you lose your temper, that's aloss. Right, So they're more slippery
ways of It's more difficult to measureyour progress, you know, in life
as a stoic, as a virtuousperson, a stoke practitioner, because you

(32:19):
don't have that scoreboard showing runs,hits, errors, RBIs right, and
all the data that are generated insports these days, all these different metrics.
You don't have that when it comesto living a good life unless you
fall prey to the mistake of measuringyour success as a person in terms of
what wealth and fame. Wonderful,Look how many hits the walled garden is

(32:46):
getting. Oh, look how manypeople have subscribed. That means that Simon
is succeeding. Right, That meanshe's doing a good job. He's he's
providing useful content. Right, rushedto any of those conclusions. But danger

(33:07):
in capitalism, right, I don'twant to get I don't want to get
too political here in terms of economictheory, but right, I mean people's
oil. How do you how isthe value of your work measure? Well,
it's how much you're paid, howmuch money you make? Oh ah,
yeah, wealth a preferred indifferent butstill and indifferent. So so one
more thought I'll throw out there isapproaching things from again stoicism to sports.

(33:34):
So one of the things that Stokesemphasize is meditation on death. This is
something we should do every day,right, meditation on death. Look at
things from above, the big picture, the global outlook. Recognize that terrible
storms in California, mudslides all ofthat, hurricanes and the Eastern Seaboard and

(33:58):
the southeast, and tornadoes in theMidwest and here in Arizona the way it's
beautiful most of the time. Butanyway, right, So from the big
picture, you know, death ispart of the equation of living in the
world that we have and being alive. You can't you can't be alive unless
your mortality is guaranteed. Only mortalsdie, right, So Stoics remind themselves

(34:23):
of death every day. Because itputs things in perspective. Then you don't
it's not as easy to sweat thesmall stuff, right, focus on what's
up to you, being a goodperson, fulfilling your roles to other people,
being a member of the community,being a good teammate, right,
a good participant in the larger hole. Focus on that stuff. But remember,

(34:45):
your days are short, your daysare numbered. You're not going to
live forever. So this helps imparta kind of urgency in your pursuit of
virtue. Right, don't postpone,don't procrastinate because you don't know how long
you have and advancing in virtue takesa lot of effort and dedication. So
how does that apply to sports,Well, it seems to me it means

(35:07):
thinking a lot about losing. Rememberlosing not as a foregone conclusion, not
so that you're going to strive tolose, but remember that losing is ineliminable
from competing, and you can't loseit the practice because there's no scoreboard.

(35:30):
But you can lose you know,the respect of your coach if you're not
trying hard, right, that's akind of losing as an athlete, if
you're not making the progress you're notputting in the work, right, so
recognizing that losses are going to happen. But right as you were talking about

(35:52):
endurance, Nick, and resilience,learn learn from the loss, what could
you have done better? And ifyou played the best you could and the
other team wins, that's the waythe sport's supposed to work. The people
who play the best, the teamthat plays the best as a team ought

(36:15):
to win most of the time,and you should celebrate that no matter which
you know, what jersey you're wearing, no matter which team you're on.
And as a fan and as acoach, right, I mean the coach,
as you say so nicely in yourdissertation, Nick, I mean,
you want to develop your players ashuman beings. They're kids. You want

(36:38):
them to you know, internalize thesevirtues for life because they might not become
professional athletes on the football field.That is the soccer field, right or
the other way around the rest ofthe world calls it football, right,
only the Americans call it soccer,while we call it soccer. Oh we
got the Irish oer side too,but yeah no, And to go off

(37:00):
of that, I just want togive an example of, you know,
the way sport is supposed to workbecause you do see it. You do
see some some beautiful moments. Butrecently, m Alexevechkin, uh an hockey
player, one of one of thebest hockey players ever um got he scored
his eight hundred and second career NHLgoal, which is the second most goals

(37:22):
ever scored. And the other team, you know, the team that he
was competing against, that that night, after the game, after this team
had just lost and after alexevetchian Ihad just gotten this record, they stayed
on the ice and they shook hishands afterwards as a kind of respect.
And that's that's a really good exampleof what you're just talking about, William

(37:45):
about you know, we play tocompete, we play, you know,
we want to play the best thatwe can. But sometimes, you know,
and I think in sports especially,it's a it's a grudging respect most
of the time when when you whenyou recognize that the other team, the
other players are just better than you, it's a it's definitely a respect,

(38:05):
and sometimes it's a little bit begrudging. But when when Alexilvetchkin scored that eight
hundred and second goal, it wasit was just here respect and a joy
for this man who has accomplished sucha feat by by being so good that
that's a great example of career achievement. I'll throw another one out that's not

(38:27):
from team player a team sport,but men's singles tennis. Roger Federer and
rafael Na Doll. They played together. They were in tears. These guys
had battled on clay and hardcourt andgrass at Wimbledon for decades. Roger Federer's

(38:52):
career and the Doll his knees,his feet, the way he just chewed
up his body playing on the clayfor so long on. Just fantastic players
that are so moved by each othercoming to the ends of their careers,
and the depth of respect. Imean, yeah, I'll throw this.

(39:15):
This is a very academic reference.But one reason to think that Stoicism was
such a powerful ancient philosophy is becausethey had the toughest intellectual opponents in the
history of ancient Greek and Roman philosophy, and they were the Skeptics. And

(39:37):
the skeptics attacked the Stoic arguments andthe Stoic theory and system, and it
forced the Stoics to do philosophy betterand It's like Nadal and Federer duking it
out and then you got Djokovic two. Right, these guys had the careers,

(39:59):
they had the suc says that theydid because they had world class opponents
that they had to get a littlebit better than in that tournament. Right,
And this is this is this isreally like here, this is the
beauty of sports when we when wesee our opponents as challenging us to be

(40:22):
better, better people, right,not losing our anger, shaking hands after
the match, applauding the ace.This is why tennis players who were classy
when they hit the ball and itclips the net and dribbles over, or
if the opponents up of the netand you hit the you're going for the

(40:44):
passing shot and you hit so hardand it just hits the top of the
net and it bloops, you know, flies just over what would have been
your opponent's winning volley. You raiseyour racket and apologize, right, because
it's luck. It shouldn't. Luckshouldn't determine who wins the point, or
if it's game point the game,or what if it's set point, holy

(41:08):
cow, and you win on anet chord. It shouldn't be about luck.
It should be about skill and whatyou respect is the skill and the
fortitude endurance of your opponents. Andif you if you show that, then
you're winning. That's what winning is. I would lose the match, but

(41:29):
have a better month, struggle forthe month, but have a better year.
Right, that's the stoic perspective.I want to build on that,
if, if, if possible,William, because you know, Nick was
just talking about just this pinnacle momentin that footballer's career. I've forgotten his

(41:50):
name. What was his name again, Nick, Yeah, the hockey player.
Sorry, that's right, Yeah,yeah, Um, you know this
pinnacle moment, and you're talking aboutyou know that the importance of opposition.
You know, this this great conceptthat you know that there would not be
you know I without other You knowthat there's there's there's the opponent, and

(42:12):
then there's you know, and it'sthat force that allows us to wrestle in
life and and and you know,throughout our conversations Nick, we've discussed this
idea. I kind of want topaint a picture for you guys and get
you to comment on it, becauseI think one of the most profound conversations
that we had nick was when wekind of built that hierarchy of all those
levels in say a football game,all the way up almost building like a

(42:37):
ladder to God's sort of situation,because if you really think about it,
it's like, Okay, firstly,you've got these people who have to I'm
going to leave a whole bunch ofroles and people out of this. But
you know, let's say you haveto have a really great stadium, right,
and you've you know, got tohave a beautiful lawn and you know,
everything's got to be just right thatyou know, you don't want to
go to a crappy stadium. Um, you know, so let's let's hope

(42:59):
that the builders have done an excellentjob of building this stadium. And we
all know when you walk into agreat stadium, just oh my gosh.
You know, the atmosphere, youknow, everything is just amazing. It's
it's incredible. Then you've got youknow, you've got the whole management team
of the of the sports team,right, so you've got the managers,
you've got the coaches, you've gotthe people who are picking the players,

(43:21):
all the stuff. Each of themhas a role to play here and if
they do it just right, thentheir team is perhaps going to have a
better chance of working together well andand perhaps winning more games. You've got
the players, and every single playerhas a very specific role that they play
in the game, and if theydo that role well, then everybody can

(43:44):
kind of lock in. And wediscuss this idea that there's almost like it
you see you see birds meandering ina flock, right, and it's like,
that's not a whole bunch of birds. That's like one flock of birds.
You know, it's one thing,and it's all moving simultaneously. And
then they go over here, andthen they go over there, and that

(44:05):
can happen as a sports team,and then you think, okay, well
we actually need somebody to play against, and so you know it's necessary to
have that other team there. Andif they if they are doing the best
that they can do, then wehave an excellent opponent to wrestle with,
right, And that forces us toplay to the best that we can play.

(44:27):
And there's this thing that happens,and perhaps this is the moment when
we also speak about the audience,like we were talking about before, even
the audience has like a role toplay, right, But we discuss this
moment, and the moment is youknow, we as human beings, we're
always striving for perfection. We're strivingto be the very best that we can

(44:47):
be. And it seems to melike such a good picture of virtue is
that moment when let's say you havean incredible opponent team so that the competition
is is really really difficult, andthen you've got an incredible home team for
example, you know, and theyare just playing at the top of their
game. Everybody is doing exactly whatthey're supposed to be doing when they're supposed

(45:12):
to be doing it. They're lockedin. Nobody is going outside of their
bounds. They know that they area part of a team, they have
a hole to contribute to, andbecause the competition is so good, you
know, but nonetheless they managed toscore a goal, right, And you
see what happens in that moment,And I think this is really telling of
perhaps what virtue is, this ideaof all parts contributing to the whole perfectly

(45:39):
right, Because when you see anincredible goal scored, just watch what happens
in the crowd. It's like thisautomatic. Nobody chooses to do this,
It just happens. Everybody leaps totheir feet. Everybody goes nuts. It's
it's just ecstatic atmosphere, you know, it's this celebration of oh my gosh,

(46:02):
that was one of the most incrediblethings I've ever seen. Perfection.
You know, he could have therewas a million ways that he could have
gone wrong there, but it happenedright and we got to witness this,
and I just think that that issuch a such a it's a universally applicable
analogy for our lives, even withour bodies. It's like you feed at

(46:24):
the right and nutrition, you know, you drink lots of water, you
maybe exercise, you know, likeall of these things that you can do
to contribute to your body, andthen your body has all of these organs
that are all doing some specific thingin their own lane, but nonetheless they're
contributing to the whole. And whathappens as an individual when you're playing in

(46:45):
a sports team and you've really takencare of your body and you've really trained
in everything, your body is apeak condition. You know, you can
actually have those moments where all theparts come together to serve the whole.
And I don't know, maybe youcould speak to that a little bit more
because I just so enjoyed those conversations, and I do think that that is
such a You can take that analogyinto businesses, or into your relationship,

(47:09):
into all these different places. Andso this is what we want. We
want all we want all parts switchedon so that we can have more of
those moments where wow, look atthis coming together. You know, all
of these parts are contributing meaningfully tothe whole of life. So I don't
know, Nick or William, ifyou had any comment on that kind of
analogy. High friends, We'll beright back with this episode. But for

(47:35):
now, I wanted to tell youabout one of the services that we are
proud to offer in the World GardenPhilosophical Society, and that is philosophical mentoring.
This is a method of coaching thataims to bring the mentees actions into
alignment with them most noble aspirations andas mentors. We do this by holding
space for philosophical dialogue and mutual discernmentof the paths that lead to a flourishing

(48:00):
life. At the World Garden,we have a whole team of truly world
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(48:25):
Forward slash Mentoring. We look forwardto working with you, but for now,
enjoy the rest of this episode.Yeah, I think, well,
I mean, for me, youknow, one of the reasons that I
was drawing to soccer of all thesports, you know, because I grew
up watching, watching and playing andloving pretty much every sport. But how

(48:47):
fluid soccer was, and how youknow, how oftentimes that that picture doesn't
come together, and so when itdoes come together, it's it's even more
ecstatic, you know, there's morejoy. You know, if you watch
a basketball game, somebody scores abasket, yeah, it's great, but

(49:08):
it happens in a one hundred timesa game. So I think one of
the things that I think about soccer, and I had this idea actually just
a couple of weeks ago, isI was thinking about art. And you
know, if you talk about moviesor books, right and you're looking at
the finished product of the movie,right, and that's that's you know,

(49:30):
if it's done well, it's agood piece of art. But you don't
think about the creation of art.You don't think about everything that has to
go into it, all of thepieces that go into that creation. And
the beautiful thing about sports, andespecially for me at least soccer, is
that that game itself is the creationof art. It is. Most of

(49:52):
the time, you know, it'sa lot of hard work. It doesn't
go that well. And so whenthose moments happen, when that art does
come to fruition, when virtue isachieved on the field, it's it's beautiful.
I mean, it's just you know, you have That's why there is
such a deep joy when that happens. It's why people eat to their feet,

(50:12):
they go nuts. It's because formost of the time, you know,
the parts of trying to work towardsthat that hole and they don't always
succeed, especially against good competition.But yeah, sorry, I think you
mooted, Simon. Sorry, Iwas just gonna say, Nick, don't
you think that the fact that theresponse that you have to one of those

(50:36):
moments is so just intrinsic built intous just automated, like, oh my,
you know, I don't watch alot of sports. I'm not a
sports guy. Yeah, I thinkabout all of this in the same way.
But we're playing in a band,you know, as a musician.
But nonetheless, when I'm watching,you know, one of the rare sports
games that I do watch, andI see something incredible happen on the field,

(51:00):
I can't help but get so it'sjust my whole body turns on.
You know, it's oh my,oh wow, did you say you know
it's such an automatoris And I thinkin a sense that shows us so much
about what we are looking for ashuman beings. We're looking for those moments
when all of the pieces come togetherin spite of incredible difficulty, incredible opposition,

(51:27):
but nonetheless we you know, wemanaged to wrestle our way through and
something, something transcendent happened there.And I do think that it is transcendent
in in a way. Yeah,I mean, it gives you, gives
you a little bit of hope forhumanity that you know, that's our innate
response to something so beautiful is thatyou know, we we we cheer for

(51:51):
it, We want it to happenand so I do think it definitely shows
that we want virtue to happen.We want this art, we want this
beauty. Um. We all weoften get sidetracked by other things that we
think are art or more virtuous,um, and we kind of go off
course. But yeah, I thinkthat is a good example of just that

(52:13):
innate human nature to to want thevirtue, to want to live a good
life, of joyous life. William, I'll let you pop into and after
you'll come at William, I'll justmentioned I think we're going to open it
up to a bit of a Qand a Yeah, that's that would be
great. The one this, theone point I would want to add is
um uh Sam, when you weretalking about you know when when the stadium

(52:36):
is is grand and huge and wellmade, and you know, that reminded
me of the controversy and uh cutterright about the workers who were treated so
horribly and pressed so uh well Imentioned that, Well, I would say,
I would say that's that that's goingto be part of it as well.

(52:58):
If you really think about it,like if you're sitting in that stadium,
mean you know that that happened,it's going to detract a little bit
from from your your experience there,you know, like you'd much rather you'd
much rather know that the whole line, right from the bottom up to the
top is you know that there's good, well meaning players, all this sort

(53:20):
of stuff. You know, nobody'sbeing Nonetheless, the human condition is that
we always have to you know,there is always uh what ink in the
milk? Maybe that's a you knowin terms of you know, well,
yes, right, and that's andshooting makes a good point about the about
the Roman slaves, you know,building the colosseums. And similarly it is

(53:44):
so breen and it's important, Yeah, it is so Breen and you you
you have to recognize that it doescome at a kind of human cost.
So there's a trade off, isn'tthere. There's there's a human cost,
But then there's this transcendent experience thata case aasionally happens. But but the
only thing the point I wanted tomake was just let's not forget that,

(54:07):
you know, sports takes place,play game plane takes place in the most
humble of venues all over the world, all the time, when five and
six year olds are kicking the soccerball around in an alley, when when
they're playing stickball in the street,you know, I don't. They don't

(54:29):
do that in Brooklyn anymore, butthey used to. But there are places
where children are learning these skills.So so let's let's not think that,
well, we can only appreciate this, you know, once, once we're
old. We can only appreciate thisas fans watching young athletes in their prime,
who are professionals making millions and millionsof dollars that devote their entire list.

(54:52):
No, no, no, let'scelebrate and remember the small joys of
playing as children ourselves. Right wherethere aren't fans, there's no audience,
there's no spectators, But there canalso be that artistic beauty and joy in
playing a great whiff a ball game, right, or a great little you

(55:15):
know, three on three basketball gameor whatever it is kicking, you know,
setting up you know, a littlemini soccer field in an alley somewhere,
and just having four on four ortwo on two, whatever it is.
Those that's where the appreciation, thejoy of game playing plays a kind

(55:36):
of freedom, right it frees.There are rules that establish what the game
is, but as children, wecan establish and change those rules however we
want. Within the game, sincethe expression of it is this freedom to
celebrate a game and playing in thegame as an athlete of that age with
that skill level. Right, That'swhy I just don't want that all kind

(56:00):
of game playing to be lost andovershadowed by the multi million billion dollars um,
you know, professional sports that's televised. This stuff is going on on
the small stage, on small stagesall over the place, and and and
that's to be celebrated too, Yeah, William, I just at that point,
I think one of my one ofmy favorite memories of this past fall,

(56:23):
when I was coaching, you know, my young ones. It's just
when we finally put it together andit was our last game of the season
with my U nine boys, andthe way they played and you know,
we ended up tying the game,we didn't even win, but just I
got to see them play and youknow, they learned, and I could
tell that they were learning and takingin what I was saying, and that

(56:44):
it really, you know, impactedthem from the last game to the first.
And I felt that joy. Youknow, I don't know how many
other people recognized or realized it,but I felt that joy because I knew
what had gone in and just froma you know, a U nine boys
game with fifty people, all ofthem being parents or siblings. There,
m there was, there was thatjoy achieved from from that hard work right

(57:07):
over the whole season, all right, weeks and weeks of work to get
to that point, right, thatvery important stoic lesson. We're running marathons,
not sprints. This is the longhaul. Yeah, I don't know,
guys, I don't but I'm goingto sit in my elitism over here.
Give me a stadium, Come on, give me a stadium and a

(57:30):
better be multimillion dollars. And um, I wouldn't say yeah anyway, Judith,
I'll bring you in here, anybodyanyway, Thank you so much.
Yeah, yeah, William and nickThis has been so much fun, and
I really appreciate you guys spending thetime and joining in this conversation today.
Brilliant stuff. So I'll hand itover to you. Judith. Oh,

(57:52):
thank you, William and Niken's thingright, I've got a couple of points.
I suppose why don't you sit uh, so many of the institutions of
our sporting tradition, you know,the stadia, the teens, the competition,
athletics. We inherit them directly fromthe Greeks and Romans. So there's
no accident that these connections are beingmade. And it wasn't just, of

(58:15):
course the Stoics who traded on thoseimportant cultural traditions. So for instance,
Saint Paul when he's appealing to Greekaudiences knows to use an athletic metaphor or
two. So these were very powerfulcultural traditions, you know, not not
just for the Stoics. But thesecond point I'd make too is that and

(58:36):
I think I talked about this onon Brandon's Strong Stoic podcast. As parents
and the parents of the kids,ukach Nick would be in this position.
You know, we don't send ourkids to learn sports so that they're going
to become professionals, because that's thethat's the privilege only of a tiny minority
of kids learning sport. What wesend them to Unick. We send them

(58:57):
to learn sports so that they can'tso because it's a proxy for learning the
virtues of self control, courage,justice, and wisdom. You know,
self control. You have to beself controlled to do well in a sport.
You have to you have to practiceand you have to not come out
with everything that comes into your head. You have to and you have to

(59:20):
have a routine. You have tobe dedicated courage wise, you have to
attempt things that you haven't attempted before. Wisdom, you have to again comes
back to you have to know whento You know when it's time for you
to do your thing or not.And justice is part of playing fairly,
you know, and doing the rightthing by both your team and the other
team. Those those virtues are whatour children learn and that's why we you

(59:44):
know, why why we send kidsto learn sport, because sport is a
proxy for true virtue training for thevast majority of kids in the West,
and particularly because we don't live ina virtue culture. The Greeks and Romans
did. They also had training specificallyin virtue. In our cultures, we

(01:00:06):
don't. We have in some senses, an anti virtue culture. We have
a culture of narcissism. Um.You know, social media and be able
to presenting kids with very different values, I'll say, um, But sport
is one of the areas where wecan encourage them to develop these important qualities

(01:00:28):
for their lives. Yeah, well, Jude, I would love it if
you were one of my kids parentsfor sure, that's I mean, that's
exactly why, you know, Icoach them. But the unfortunate thing is
that is exactly why they should bethere, and that is why their parents
should put them there. And Ithink for a lot of people that is
true. But I think one ofthe hard things about being a coach,

(01:00:51):
you know, one of the strugglesthat not not that I have this,
but I know other coaches have this, and it's you know, pretty pretty
calm, is that parents, youknow, will will get mad or will
have concerns just because your you nineboys team is winning. You know that
they place that value on the winningor they think that that is where the

(01:01:13):
virtue is. And so if there, if their virtue is misguided as the
parents, it places some pressure orsome obstacle in the way of the coach
to teach the virtue that they wantsteach, to teach the Stoke virtue.
And I think that's definitely exactly yeah, exactly, thank you, Judy,
Thank you Nick. Yeah. Imean that's why I would say, Judy,

(01:01:36):
the one tweek I would make towhat you said is that that games
sports can be a proxy for virtuetraining. It ought to be. It
can be. But if you don'thave a thoughtful, virtue focused, stoic,
sympathetic coach like mister Davis coaching yourseven ate nine year olds, than

(01:02:00):
what you're gonna get is, well, your your son or daughter isn't good
enough to play much in the game. And I'm trying to win, and
they've got to learn that. Youknow, their role is to be a
bench warmer ninety five percent of thetime because I gotta win, because that's
what the other parents, that's whatthat's what the administration and my bosses want

(01:02:21):
me to do is win, win, win, win, win, And
with winning comes you know, fame, and with fame comes wealth. And
and again that's that's not that's notthe goal for for a virtuous person,
for a stoic and so yeah,I and self control, but what you
say by the virtue is very keyself control and not losing your temper.

(01:02:45):
Right, we see anger erupting inthe in the among fans, in the
stands, among players, bumping referees. I watched a few minutes of an
NFL game by accident the other day, and there was a player who fell
down. He was on the field, grabbing his knee, and there were

(01:03:06):
other players around him, and oneof the trainers came out to look at
the guy, and an opposing playerof the injured one was standing near him,
and so the trainer had to kindof brush past him, you know,
to get to look at the player. What did the opposing player do?
He shoved the trainer and then therewas the flag, and then the

(01:03:30):
refs consulted, and then he gotexpelled and then he's crying. It's like,
what are you thinking? Right?Self control, not getting angry.
So I think it is a verybig challenge to cheer and be elated and

(01:03:50):
be hungry for that transcendence, right, the glass being half full when good
things happen in the sport, butnot to get naked and angry and lose
or resentful when things don't go orif you're surprised by something. That's the
real challenge. But but that's thechallenge of parenting kids too. Right,

(01:04:12):
It's not okay to get angry.You stand up for yourself, you don't
allow people to be bullied, youcall it out. But not losing your
anger. Boy, that's that's hugefor for stoics, whether in sports or
any other contexts. But wonderful comments. Thank you, Judy. So we've
we've got gen here. I justhave to comment the William I've never heard

(01:04:36):
the term stoic sympathetic. That's that'sthe term that we should call USLS if
we don't want to kill us ostoic quite Yeah, well stoic, yes,
yes, Scott Akin told me oncehe's a stowish. But that's yeah,
that's the that's the term that weuse in our repictitious commentary that's in

(01:04:57):
production now. He's stowish. Yeah. I didn't want to presume Nick to
hang that label on you. No, Yeah, there's a cup fan.
I have to be a stokingish.Isn't good enough? Yeah, exactly,
I've got to try to be stockI feel I feel miserably, which is
why I'm a fool. But II yeah, I stowish. Isn't enough
for me? Better to be afool? Here we go, Jena jump

(01:05:23):
in sure. I mean I'm commenting. You know, I'm coming at this
from you know, a not supersporty person myself, but I've seen it's
you know, you have an individuallike a child who's you know, going
to play soccer on NIX team Sothis kid is coming in like and then
you're teaching him him or her,you know, more of the virtues and

(01:05:45):
build they're building their character. Andas they're doing this, you know,
they're learning about you know, they'remaybe bringing in the circles of concern,
like you're part of this team now, and treat everybody as we're all one,
because we're all part of nature,the cosmos, the cosmic soup,
as Simon dubbed it the other dayon our Soul Searching with Seneca meeting.

(01:06:10):
So it's like you're changing the perspectiveof these kids who may have grown up
maybe more like individualistic, you know, especially in the Western society, to
you know, be more accepting ofloss, to cheer on the other team,
and just see everything as a whole. Because as you're building your character,
you're helping the rest of the teambuild theirs as well. Yeah,

(01:06:40):
I mean that's why I think it. You know, when you watch these
after the game, when the gameends, when you watch these professional baseball
and football players and hockey players,as as Nick mentioned before, watch what
they do after the game, Watchwhat they do with opposing players, who's
team they were they left right?And this happens with kids too, the

(01:07:05):
ones who do go to you know, in high school, college. You
know they're going to play with andagainst the same people. And so when
you recognize that, yeah, thatthey're they're all they're all trying to get
better at their skill, to bebetter players, to achieve success, and

(01:07:28):
and friendships, right, strong friendships. That's the that's the fertile soil of
friendship is when you have that sharedactivity, that shared experience, competing against,
competing with teammates and opponents. Yeah, that's it can be very it
can be very fruitful for building friendshipsand character growth. But and then the

(01:07:50):
challenges you can rivalries can get ugly. Right. Not everyone ends up like
Rafa and Roger after tennis careers ofdeck spanning decades, right, their arrivals
who really dislike each other, andand of course it's it's the result of
disrespect, right, So that that'swhat's so nick curious challenger. But what's

(01:08:18):
that Nick? Nick curios That's whoI was thinking too, right, Yeah,
I mean they're they're tennis players whoreally dislike each other. And again
with the singles, they're in thesame locker room. You know, who
wasn't oh gosh, which which tournamentwas it? In twenty twenty two in
the finals where the two guys wereclose friends playing each other in the finals.

(01:08:45):
That that's happened a couple of times. It happened with Andy Roddick and
Marty Fish that they they lived togetherin in Roddick's home, they grew you
know, they spent but I forgetwho it was some months back, but
guys were two close friends facing eachother in like a semi final or final
match. Wow. Right, youknow they're they're gonna be friends, if

(01:09:08):
they're real friends, they're gonna befriends after the match is over. So
if you think of your opponents onthe field as potential friends, not just
you know, anonymous opponents to respectin some sort of distant way, but
people that you can befriend, thenyou can count on. Right. Wow.

(01:09:29):
I mean, like, who wasthe football player on the Bills Nick
Damien? Oh yes, um,oh yeah, the guy who who tackled
someone and he got a helmet tothe chest and his heart stopped. He
stood up after the tackle and thenhe collapsed. This is the Bengals Bills

(01:09:51):
game a week ago, right,Uh? Yeah, I mean the opponent
guy this is life and death.And again life and death. What you
mean somebody might die on a footballfield, Yes, stoic, the stoic

(01:10:11):
message, right, keep it inperspective, right, remortal death can happen
at any time. If that doesn'tmake you urgent, if that doesn't lend
you urgency and pursuing what matters inlife and letting the trivial stuff, the
small stuff go right, This isone yeah, so yeah, transcendence,

(01:10:33):
death and transcendence. Simon Well,I want to throw an olive branch out
to anybody who borderlines psychopathy in theircompetitiveness, because really, I do think
that there is a place for livingon that threshold of competitiveness where you get

(01:10:55):
to that kind of peak just beforeit becomes diminishing returns, just before it
starts to go over to you intounhealthy behaviors. A great because sports,
like you can back me up onthis neck, like, how much of
sports is psychological when you're on thatfield, if you're up against a team
like let's take the All Blacks fromNew Zealand for example, how do they
start every single game? They getup the you know, like they're doing

(01:11:23):
this, Oh my gosh, thishorrifying, like display of power and of
we are here to absolutely crush youthe hucker, right, Like, think
think about the psychological effect that that'sgoing to have on the other team,
right. And I really, Ireally think that there is a place for

(01:11:45):
saying, Okay, when I geton this field, these people are not
necessarily my friends. Maybe when I'moff the field, but right now potential
friends. It's fair enough. Butstill, but I'm not going to stand
there in a when they went towin a point. I'm just not gonna
you know what I mean, Likelike there's there's a place for being just

(01:12:06):
um, I don't know, likepsychologically terrifying on that field because it's part
of the competition that you know thatthe wrestling and I don't know, maybe
you could speak to that, Nick. Maybe I'm going a bit too far.
No, I love it, um, and the All Blacks is great
to throw in because actually the collegethat I coach at, we have a
we have a book that's kind oflike our team bible that's it's called Legacy,

(01:12:28):
and it's about the All Blacks andthey they talk about the Hawk and
the importance of it and not justpsychologically against the other team, but psychologically
for themselves. You know, thisisn't an indigenous tribal dance that I believe,
and I might be wrong, butI believe they do it, you
know, before they would go towar um and and so it creates the

(01:12:51):
psychology of the players and what they'redoing. But the great thing, the
really cool thing about the Hawk isthat it is steep in tradition and so
you take it back to the cosmicsoup and these players are doing this dance
that give them that perspective of it'snot about me, It's not about this,

(01:13:13):
you know, just right now,it's I am upholding a tradition.
I'm I have to act virtuously becauseyou know, the jersey that I put
it on is just is more thanjust a jersey. You know, There's
there's tradition, there's you know,a people, a tribe um to represent
um. And so I think psychologically, you know, the Hawk is is

(01:13:34):
a is a fantastic example of umjust you know, giving that perspective of
sports that is so much more thanjust the sport itself. It's it's a
lot less trivial than that when whenyou really get into it. Yeah,
the sorry preparation has to be mentaland physical. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah,

(01:13:58):
So that's that's the mental that's thespiritual part of getting pumped up.
They've they've got to be mentally preparedand not just physically trained. Yeah.
I'm just thinking if I ever runfor politics, guys, you can take
that clip of me doing the houcker. That'll I'll be like, this guy
doesn't get it. He's trying tobe disrespectful, you know, especially you

(01:14:19):
being Australian talking about that rugby ofthose things recorded that I think could get
me get me damage in the future. But we'll see. Um. Uh,
does anybody else have any questions,comments, uh, pushback, agreements,
whatever, Like I say, questions, comments, condemnations, anybody Well,

(01:14:43):
look comb of nations. I don'tknow. Um, but look,
guys, this has been so muchfun. I really appreciate you being here
today, and I appreciate everybody forshowing up as well. Um, you
know, in the same way.You know, we all a role here
and growing this beautiful community and havingthese kinds of conversations, and UM,

(01:15:04):
I'm so wanted to have been ableto have this conversation with you guys today.
I think I think it's going toreally be so beneficial for so many
people, so so thank you.Any any final comments for me, the
William or Nick, if you guyshave anything that you wanted to share before
we duck off, before we leavethe field, so to speak. Now,

(01:15:27):
I just want to thank all ofyou, Simon, Nick, Judy,
John, Uh, Chuck and andAlex sorry just dr iPhone. What's
his name? Alex, Alex,Alex, Thank you Alex for coming.
Yeah, this is fine, enjoyedit. Thank you Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I mean thank you obviously. Thank you Simon for you know,

(01:15:49):
everything you do with the Wall Garden, just providing this opportunity for us to
have these conversations is is awesome,So thank you. And yeah, thanks
for everybody for coming. We hada we had a couple others on here.
That's those were my parents, umso um, yeah they came for
a little bit. But I'm sureI appreciate, Yeah, I appreciate non

(01:16:12):
familial encouragement. So thank you forcoming. Thanks Nick, Yeah, and
thanks William and and yeah, thanksJudie, Thanks Jen, Alex and Chuck.
This was great. So we'll seeyou guys next time. Plenty more
events coming in the World Garden,and I would love to see you there,
So for now we'll all leave thefield and and we'll catch you back

(01:16:33):
here next time. Thanks for listeningto this episode of the wald Garden Podcast.
This show is the central podcast ofthe Wald Garden Philosophical Society. To
find out more about our events,services and community, just go to the

(01:16:56):
Waldgarden dot com. Until next time, we wish you well as you nourish
the gardens of your mind.