June 9, 2025 • 44 mins
As a professional rock climber, Beth Rodden was taught to see pain as weakness. Fear and discomfort—mental and physical—were just things to be tolerated along the path to one record-breaking climbing feat after another. But when Beth was kidnapped on a climbing expedition in Kyrgyzstan, she had to confront the limits of that approach. On today's show: when the mindset that built you, starts to break you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin Haysite Changers. I have exciting news. I've written a book.
It's called the Other Side of Change, Who we become
when life makes other plans. It's available for pre order
now at Change withthmaya dot com slash book. The book
(00:35):
comes out in January, and as a first time author,
pre orders make a huge difference. Your early support will
really help define the eventual success of this book, and
so if you can take a moment to order it now,
I'd be so grateful. You can also find the link
to pre order in our episode description. Okay, now onto
the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I remember just having this stark contrast in my body
of like, wow, I've I'm nailing this. I'm nailing this
thing called life to immediately total fear, total regret, total questioning,
like why am I here?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Why did I ever think this was a good idea.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Beth Rawden was kidnapped during a professional climbing expedition in Kyrgyzstan.
She was twenty years old. She survived the harrowing experience
using the mentality she'd relied on as a climber to
see pain as weakness and to suppress any negative feelings.
But when she returned home. She told me that she
(01:42):
applied this same mentality to the trauma she'd just endured.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I felt like I had built these walls around the
memories and the experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I
felt like I was surviving. And if I break down
these walls and I just let these memories and thoughts out,
that's totally unsafe.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
On today's show, when the mindset that built you starts
to break you. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies
human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans,
a show about who we are and who we become
in the face of a big change. In the year
(02:34):
two thousand, Beth Rawden was invited on a professional climbing
trip with two other climbers. Her new boyfriend, Tommy Caldwell
joined two, but Beth and her group were kidnapped by
rebel forces. They were held hostage for six days. They
witnessed brutal violence and endured freezing temperatures and extreme hunger.
(02:55):
It is a remarkable story of survival. A few years
ago I interviewed Tommy about the kidnapping and its aftermath.
At the time, I didn't know just how differently. Tommy
and Beth had processed the same In today's conversation, you're
going to hear from Beth. Beth started climbing in the
(03:15):
mid nineties when she was just a teenager. From the beginning,
she says, the climber's mentality just made sense to her.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
It's like, you suck it up to win. You know,
pain is weakness. You push through all of it to succeed.
That was the mindset or kind of the language and
climbing that really was championed. And for me, that was
something that really clicked with me because I was like,
I can do this. This doesn't seem that hard. You know,
if something hurts, I'll just ignore it. If I'm hungry,
(03:45):
I'll just ignore it. If I'm cold, I'll just ignore it,
and I'll just push through. I think I'm a pretty
driven person and stubborn as well, and so I think
that's like a blessing and a curse, and that if
I want to do something, I kind of just put
my head down until I really feel like I've put
into my all.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You ended up turning pro as a teenager. I read
that you felt superior to everyone else. You were like
on the mountains, being like all those suckers my high
school friends who now are in college sitting in classrooms
under fluorescent lights. Sucks to be them. And then there
you are scaling these incredible mountains and setting records. So
you are invited on a climbing trip to Kyrgyzstan when
(04:22):
you're twenty years old, and I'm curious to know, as
this budding climber, what are your hopes and dreams for
this particular trip.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I think for Kyrgyzstan, I hoped that it would kind
of continue this path that I felt like I was on,
pushing the limits of climbing higher, especially for females, And
then I kind of wanted to broaden my resume and
take it abroad. And we had had friends and teammates
that had gone to the same region a few years
(04:53):
prior and had a great time and told us that
it was kind of climber's paradise, so we thought we'd
have the best trip ever.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So what was it like when you first arrived? Set
the scene for me?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
The first two weeks were amazing and everything we kind
of hope for and more. It's this beautiful valley, the
Karasu Valley, This bright green grass lined valley with these
huge granite walls flanking each side and these big snow
capped mountains at the back, and we were kind of
in heaven. We were climbing during the day, we were
meeting the locals who would come up and bring us
(05:25):
fresh yak, milk and butter. And you know, we were
these four kids. Honestly at the time, I think John
was the oldest one at twenty five, just kind of
having the time of our lives.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, can you bring me back to that exact moment
when you first realized that you were in danger.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So it was about two weeks into the trip, and
we were camping on the side of this wall called
the Yellow Wall for climbers. When you camp on the
side of a wall, you either can sleep on natural
ledges or you bring up these things called portal ledges,
which are like hanging cots, and so we had two
portal ledges, and we were about one thousand feet up.
We had climbed up the day before and we had
(06:03):
spent the night, and the previous day was Tommy's birthday,
and so we like, you know, I had a little
chocolate pudding and stuff, and then right as the sky
was starting to lighten. The next morning, we heard these
really loud bangs. As climbers, there's things that you can
expect and you can kind of try and prepare for.
And initially, I think all of us assumed that it
(06:26):
was rock fall. And then when it happened again, we
looked down to the ground and we saw armed.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Men shooting up at us.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And I remember just feeling this incredible contrast in my body.
The night before, the two weeks before, the several months before,
I definitely felt like I was flying really high. I
felt like I was kind of winning in life because
it was this like kind of non traditional path that
I was taking. You know, professional climbing wasn't very mainstream
(06:59):
at all. So I remember just having this stark contrast
in my body of like, Wow, I've I'm nailing this.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
I'm nailing this thing.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Called life to immediate lee, total fear, total regret, total questioning,
like why am I here? Why did I ever think
this was a good idea. I wish I was in college,
I wish I was at home, and just regret.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You hear these gunshots and you're looking down, you're seeing
the source. Did you have any sense of the conflict
that had been brewing in the country and who was
who and who was shooting at you. I mean, how
did you even start to put those pieces together.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I had no idea of what was going on. We
had met locals and fatigues that were part of the
Kirsty and military, all super friendly kind We would share
a meal or show them like a CD or you know,
and so at first, you know, best case scenario, these
(07:56):
were people that just wanted to rob us or like
a misunderstanding or something like that. John volunteered to repel
down first, and as soon as he got down, he
radioed up immediately like super monotone, Everyone needs to come down.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Wow, tell me what happened next, Beth.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yeah, So one by one we all repelled down.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Like I had been crying a ton, so like my
shirt was soaked because of that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I was shaking.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I was scared, and I do remember when I first
got down seeing these men and they had necklaces of bullets,
they had you know, grenades on their belts, they had
semi automatic rifles, and I just remember thinking, Wow, this
is not a movie, this is not a joke, this
is really bad. And I was just completely terrified.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, how did those next few days unfold?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So that first afternoon we got in the middle of
this huge battle between the rebels and the Kyrgyzstan military.
There was gunfire back and forth, Mortars were being shot.
We saw people get killed. After that battle, for the
next next six days, we went in a big circle
in the mountains. During the day, they would hide us
(09:14):
in the smallest crevices under a boulder near the river.
They'd cover us with pine boughs and branches, and then
at night we would walk to the next place. We
were at eleven or twelve thousand feet and I was
wearing like a long sleeved shirt and pants, so we
were freezing. My jaw hurt from shivering so much. We
(09:35):
shoved a few energy bars into our pockets and we
would split those each day with our captors, so we
were surviving on like one hundred or two hundred calories
per day. For me, it was totally terrifying. I was
crying all the time. I was starving, just like scared.
I'm a person who likes a plan. I'm like, what's happening,
what's the ending here?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah? Yeah? Were you seeking comfort in the three guys
that were with you, I mean, how were you each
supporting one another?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
So during those six days we were with two captors
and they split us up during the day, so they
put me with John and they put Jason and Tommy together.
And so John was a huge support for me, and
he was just so good at redirecting my thoughts. He'd like,
ask me about my parents, He'd ask about childhood, and
(10:23):
so it was just a lot of distracting thoughts, you know,
on how to just pass the time, get through the
day type of thing.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Was there any element of you that was trying to
plot an idea for an escape and what ideas were
you able to tolerate not tolerate?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, So the whole time, John and Jason were talking
about it, and they were talking about, Okay, how can
we do this, Like do we try and steal their gun?
Do you know, if we're crossing a bridge, do we
push them off the bridge? Do we go near a cliff?
And I just remember I was totally against it. I
was like, I'm good at suffering. I can suffer, I
(11:02):
can starve if something goes wrong.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
We've seen them kill people.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
They're clearly not going to hold back if we try
and escape or try and kill them, and so I
thought it was a terrible idea.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Tommy did too.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I want to ask about your dynamic with Tommy in
particular during these days, because he was your boyfriend, you
had kind of very recently started dating before the trip,
you already even sure if you wanted to be together.
I mean, do you have any distinct memories in the
evenings when you're all reunited and you were back with
Tommy of what that dynamic was like and how it
(11:38):
was kind of rapidly evolving in these crazy circumstances.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Honestly, for me, it was a relief to be paired
with John because I felt somewhat responsible for Tommy being there.
Jason and I had the same sponsor and they were
sponsoring the trip, and Tommy was a different Companies athlete,
and so I felt responsible. But I was also very
scared for him, and so it felt like this other
(12:05):
fear that I was taking on.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Bring me to day six of this hellscape. You were
climbing this incredibly steep terrain. At this point, you were
only with one of the captors. Sue, if you're going
to make your escape, now might be the only conceivable time.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So it was this ridge, like a steep grassy ledge
that you can walk across, and then a steep section
where you kind of like do some climbing moves, and
then another steep grassy ledge. The entire time we were
going up this ridge, John and Jason were like, now,
it's the perfect time.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
It's four on one.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Like, he's totally uncomfortable, and rationally, I was thinking, they're
totally right. If there was ever a time, this is
the time. But that's a terrible idea. Something could go wrong,
anything could go wrong, and then we're dead, we're injured,
like something happens. And so as we're all nearing the top,
you can see Sue getting pretty excited to get off
(13:02):
of this ridge because he's completely uncomfortable, and so he
kind of starts to go ahead, and Tommy walks over
to me on one of these grassy ledges and he says,
it's obvious that John and Jason aren't going to do this.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Do you think I should do this?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I just remember like looking at him and feeling
in my head, oh, it sounds so nice to not
be held hostage anymore. It sounds so nice not to
be in this situation. Of course, that would be wonderful
if we could get out, but there's no way I
could ever tell him yes to go up there, because
(13:42):
what if he can't do it, or what if Sue
sees him coming pushes Tommy off, like oh my god,
you know, you know, like all the things are happening
in my head, and I'm just staring at him and
I don't say anything, and then I think he takes
that as yes, you should go do this, and so
Tommy climbs up beside Sue and grabs his gun strap
(14:05):
and pulls him off this ridge, and John and Jason
and I are near each other, and we see Sue's
body kind of like arc in the moonlight, and we
hear him kind of collapse and crunch onto this ledge
and then bounce off. And I just remember for me
(14:26):
feeling so scared because here we are and we have
no idea where he went. Is he coming right back up?
Like what's going on? Like this complete unknown. I'd never
had that visceral feeling of adrenaline before, so clearly where
all of a sudden, John and Jason and I just
(14:48):
sprinted to the top of this ridge where Tommy was
and Tommy had broken down. He's like crumpled up in
this ball, just sobbing and screaming and sobbing and screaming.
I killed someone. I fucking killed someone. I killed someone,
like over and over and over again. And I just
remember trying to him down, telling him that I loved him.
(15:12):
He said, you know, like, how can you ever love me?
How can anyone ever love me?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Now?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
And so just trying to like combat all those things
that were coming out of him. And I do remember
thinking in that moment, I can never leave Tommy now.
Look at what he's going through. Look at what he
just did for us, the four of us, Like, I
can never leave him now.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Wow. You would later learn that Sue had actually survived
that fall, but in the moment, you weren't sure. So
the four of you made a run for it. You
eventually reached a military outpost and then flew home to
the United States. What was going through your head when
you stepped off the plane?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You know, honestly, when we got home to the United States,
it was just our parents. They met us at the airport.
I wanted to just run into their arms, you know,
like of course, like a little girl like you know
I was twenty. Yeah, I wanted to be just like
their little little girl and have them like hold me
(16:15):
and comfort me and tell me it's going to be okay.
And I don't know, I just felt like I needed
to have this put together, we're fine facade, And so
that's kind of how I walked off the plane.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
We talked about the food that we had been given.
We talked about how KLM.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Upgraded us, you know, just like all the surface level details,
but none of the oh my god, I.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Am so scared, like, how can I ever go back
to normal?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
What do you think motivated this response in you? Why
didn't you just run and hug them?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I think it was probably a lot of things, Like
it'd probably be nice to point to one thing, but
I do think it was part of the climbing culture
back then to very much celebrate skirting death as an accomplishment.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
If you skirt to death getting to.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
The summit of a mountain, not only were you a
hero for summoning the mountain, but wow, you like outran
death somehow. And so we were just these kids, and
we outran death in one of the most sensational ways
I think back then, feelings in general, like therapy in
general just wasn't as talked about, it wasn't as widely accepted,
(17:31):
and so I think I just didn't also have the
language or probably the comfort to know how to say that,
like how to put words to this type of thing.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, did you feel that there was anything that you,
Beth needed to prove to yourself about the way that
you were going to respond to this traumatic episode? I
mean you might not even have called it a traumatic
episode to your point about lacking the language, but did
you come back and say, like, you know, I need
to prove to myself that I'm tough and I can
handle this.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I feel like there was probably parts of that, but
maybe if I were to go a step further, Yeah,
it was more like I I wanted to prove to
myself that I hadn't messed up by choosing this climbing path.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
It was more like, no.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You didn't make a mistake. You're gonna be okay, this
is okay, this is what happens.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, you didn't want it to be like an indictment
on your choices and your decision making abilities, right, Like
I have an identity of someone who's responsible and makes
good choices, and I can't let this experience challenge that,
and so instead I will essentially engage in denial about
my suffering.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Exactly, Yeah, exactly, and jump on the bandwagon of this
made me stronger. I will rise above this and be
better for it.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. After Beth and Tommy returned home from Kyrgyzthan,
they moved in together and got married. They threw themselves
(19:16):
back into climbing, setting individual records and quickly establishing themselves
as the it couple of climbing. They even had a
movie made about them, called The First Couple of Rock.
But while Tommy was able to find some normalcy in
his day to day life, Beth was struggling. When you
came back, what were the first signs that something wasn't
(19:40):
right in your mind and your body, and that, despite
your best efforts, these memories of your time in Kyrgyzstan
were going to be harmful and intrusive?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Gosh, I feel like it was pretty immediate. I think
there were so many signs and so many indications, and
just like one by one, I tried to bat them down.
I had nightmares immediately. I had nightmares that our captors
came to find us, that they were in my parents' house,
that they were on the block. I was terrified of
(20:11):
just the world. I felt like the world was a
very unsafe place because our captors were coming for us.
I was terrified to be hungry because any hunger reminded
me of being hungry in Kyrgyzstan, because we were hungry
the whole time. So I had food with me all
the time, and not just like a snack, like I
would bring meals with me all the time wherever we went,
(20:33):
just in case. I was really scared to be cold
again because we were cold the whole time.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
So just all these.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Things should have been signs, and I just thought they
were like things I needed to like, quote unquote deal with.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, how did your belief now that the world was
an unsafe place manifest.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Not in any proud ways. I was scared around anyone
that resembled our captors, so anybody with dark skin, dark hair,
certain clothing, And I was really terrified to be around
big groups of people, just anything where I didn't feel
(21:15):
like I could have a very tight grip of control,
like if I could control the situation, right, like I
know these people, I know this place, I know this house,
I know this driveway, I know this car.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I felt much more safe.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
But if there was any form of being out of control,
like who is this person, Oh, that's Bob's friend.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I didn't invite Bob's friend. Who is Bob's friend? I
got really scared about that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, and paranoid. It sounds like totally yeah, yeah. What
were the people in your life telling you in this
time to try to comfort you? And how were those
words landing for you in that moment.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So I went to therapy for the nightmares. I was like,
still on my parents' insurance, so I forget. I think
I got six sessions or something like that, and she
helped me. Like I thought, I checked the box, get
rid of the nightmares, and then I thought I was good.
But really I didn't talk to hardly anybody about it.
Like Tommy and I never talked about Kyrgyzstan. We talked
(22:08):
about logistics, like these people want to interview us and
or the movie might happen, But we never talked about
my nightmares, my paranoia, my fear, what he was going through.
He said he was fine. I was like, that sounds
nice to be fine. Maybe I should try what you're doing.
And so I didn't really talk. I felt like I
(22:28):
just controlled my own little bubble.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, it is stunning to me that you two never
talked about this. Were you taking his lead or were
you just going with your gut instinct like the best
way to move past this is just to ignore it.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, you know, honestly, Tommy always said he was fine.
He said he was better knowing that Sue lived, he
was stronger because of Kyrgyzstan, and he just like dove
right back into climbing. And I just felt like I
was in this realm of not being grounded in any way.
And after a year of just watching him be fine
(23:05):
as he said, I was like, I want to be
fine too. Maybe I should just push all this down,
bury it, immerse myself in climbing and move on.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
And so that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
It's like, maybe if I play the part, maybe if
I act this out long enough and just mimic whatever
Tommy's doing, I too will have that same response exactly.
You know. It's so interesting that, I mean, one of
the many motivations for wanting to invite you on the show,
is that we did have Tommy on a slight change
of plans to talk about his experience. And when I
(23:37):
heard about your different recounts of what had happened and
how you processed the trauma and Kyrgyzstan, my mind was blown. Right.
You talk in the book about how you would go
on climbs together and he would be in the zone,
in a flow state, totally pulled in and immersed in
the experience, and your mind was just totally out there, right,
(23:59):
I mean you felt like you were losing your grip
on reality, Like how did it feel to have that
disconnect between you two?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I felt like I needed to hide it because I
felt like I was doing something wrong. Like here we
are on this climb together, Tommy's crushing it. I have
the athletic and physical capability to crush it, and yet
I am scared every second of death. And so I'm like,
I can't admit this, like I'm just doing something wrong.
(24:30):
So I would hide it. I would be like this
is great, like look at us go.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
But I could never.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Tell him or tell myself that there was clearly something
else that I should probably confront and think about. I
was like I'm just not there yet. I'm not trying
hard enough, I'm not saying the right things enough, I'm
not doing the right things. Like I just need to
like correct this behavior and I'll get there.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Did you ever come close during this time to revealing
anything at all? Maybe when your emotions overwhelmed you past
a point of comfort.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I would definitely break down, But it was never I
never said it was because of Kyrgyzstan or PTSD. It
was like, I'm not strong enough. I need some more water. Oh,
we're gonna have to climb into the dark. Like our
lives were so funneled into just climbing and how to
(25:29):
be better climbers, and if there was anything else, it
was kind of dismissed. If it was like, oh, we're
having trouble with this person or this thing, I was like, Oh,
we don't worry about that sort of thing. Climbing is
the way. And so if I was having these thoughts
while climbing, it was because I wasn't trying hard enough,
I wasn't focusing hard enough. I needed to do better
(25:51):
and then I would get there.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, all of your days were dedicated to this pursuit.
You were building a home in Yo seventy together, you
were taking on climbing feats, both together and individually. You
were known as like the power couple of climbing. It
defined your relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Exactly, like everything was climbing, Like our friends were climbing.
We never took a vacation or a trip that wasn't climbing.
Everything was climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
And it sounds like the mindset that you cultivated as
a climber, the ability to push through pain, to suppress
your feelings, to be able to grin embarrass, the ability
to compartmentalize that all of those traits made it extremely
challenging for you to approach your trauma in the way
(26:39):
that you needed to totally.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And I think it's really important to state because I
know it's easy to blame other things. And I'm not
saying that it's because of this entirely, but the climbing
community at that time was so discouraging of any form
of fear or trauma or weakness. I felt like if
(27:07):
I admitted this, if people people knew I was going
to therapy, if people knew that I was still scared,
it would be such a stain on this reputation and
this career that I built that it would be almost
impossible to erase.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
So not only was.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I afraid to do it, but then I was afraid
that this would impact my marriage. Tommy was always like,
therapy's dumb, Like they don't know what they're talking about.
They didn't go through what we went through. How could
they possibly help us? So I was afraid of how
it would affect my relationship with Tommy, how it would
affected my career, you know, just and I didn't want
to be seen as a weak person. I wanted to
(27:43):
be seen as this strong person. So there was like
all this stuff wrapped up, and like why I thought
it was not a good idea to confront it?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, were you extra guarded about your vulnerable mental state
in part because you're a woman and you were already
facing such a stigma about your baseline levels of mental
fortitude or physical strength.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Back then, there was like one seat at the table
for women on an athlete team or on an expedition,
and you were going with guys, and if the guys
thought that you were weak in any imagination, then you
were not invited. And that seat was quickly given to
the next person, and so it was very much like
I had to keep up this persona that I could fill.
(28:30):
I could suck it up and I could suffer with
the best of them. But I also had this other
side of like, wow, like I have these huge feelings,
I have these big emotions, and I need help processing them.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah. So you'd been with Tommy since your early twenties
or two months before your trip to Kyrgyzstan, and then
in your late twenties you made this life changing decision.
You had told yourself at the top of that mountain,
I'm never going to leave Tommy, and you decided to
begin a new chapter of your life with your now husband, Randy.
(29:02):
I can only imagine how complicated that was for you, Beth,
to navigate, and I would love to hear what led
you to that point.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Yeah, no, it's a great question.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I started dating Tommy when I was nineteen, and we
were together like nearly a decade, married at like twenty two,
and I honestly thought after Kyrgyzstan that that was it.
Like Tommy and I were good, you know, we were
great climbing partners, we loved each other, but I think
as I went through my twenties, I started noticing things
(29:37):
in our relationship cracks. It would be this kind of
similar with PTSD. I'd notice it and then I'd just
like try and shove it away.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
What kind of things were you noticing that you learned
to ignore?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Uh, there was like a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I had so many issues with his parents, and to
the point where I mean, as you know, I'm in
my mid forties now I get but at the time,
I was like, why aren't you putting us before your parents.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
I'm like, this seems like an easy.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Thing to do, and he was just like, nope, we
got to toe this line with my parents. And I'd
be like, wow, I feel like a child.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
This is not okay. But I was like, okay, I
guess we're towing this line.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So like I feel like things like that, I started
to build resentment before and again, I think with resentment,
I was like, it's okay, and then when it would
come back another time, I was like, oh, it's stronger,
but it's okay, you know. And so I'd noticed these
things come in and.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
When you would find yourself frustrated by, for example, things
with his parents or other things that couples can just
get annoyed at one another about would you find yourself
ever saying but he saved your life, Beth, you have
to stay with him.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I think.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
At times I would probably say that, but more so
I was like, he's a great guy.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
You'll never find another great guy like this. He's a
great guy.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
You'll never find another great guy like this because Tommy's
a great guy, right, Like I don't want to ever
say Tommy's not a great guy, but people can be
great people and not the right person for you. And
so I think I heard it so much from our friends,
like Tommy's an amazing guy, that I think I just
was like, Wow, I'm like screwed if I ever am
(31:14):
not if I feel like this relationship isn't good, Like
this is the best you're ever going to get. And
I had been telling myself that. And then honestly, we
built a house together. We framed the house, we put
on the roof, like we just did, you know, like
manual labor together for a whole year, and I know,
like building a house with somebody's stressful, But it was
(31:34):
the first time that we were doing something together that
wasn't climbing. It was just like, you know, the mundane
things of like, oh, if we're going to make dinner
after a day of building, and like do we have
anything to talk about? Am I interested in what he
has to say? Is he interested in what I have
to say? Like, I'm really tired of this building? Can
we go to the beach? We've never gone to the
(31:55):
beach before. That seems uncomfortable for us. Oh, we're not
going to the beach because we don't know how to
do it. You know. It's just like all those things
that I'm like, oh, Wow, maybe this isn't it. I
don't like how we're working together, Like I don't like
how I I was just like, wow, I don't like this.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
And so after the house we went back to climbing.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I was like, we have to get back to climbing
because I can't be with that person. I don't want
to be that person in that relationship. And so we
got back to climbing and it kind of felt normalish.
But I think once I had seen that, I started
noticing cracks more and like maybe lighting resentment in maybe
like deciding to dig deeper into things that I was
bothered by that maybe I wouldn't have mentioned before. And
(32:36):
then that's when I met Randy, and I was like, oh, wow,
maybe this isn't the relationship for me. So I met
Randy while I was still married to Tommy, and I
think I was always one of those people that was
very judgy of people who had affairs or were unfaithful.
I was like, well, if you're unhappy with this person,
(32:56):
then just leave and then start the new one. I
just thought it was like a very easy thing, Like
I didn't ever think you had to stay with somebody,
but I thought you needed to be cut and dry
about it. And so I found myself in this very gosh,
it was so hard, like sticky, messy, whatever you want
to say, situation where I didn't know how to leave
(33:19):
Tommy and take the leap, and so I ended up
having an affair with Randy before I left my marriage
to Tommy.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
When you and Randy got married, your life changed in
a lot of ways. Right, He was a climber, but
he was a more of a recreational climber. He had
a much more well rounded life and normal job, and
you guys also decided to have a child together. So
much changed in terms of your orientation towards climbing, and
(33:51):
what a focal point that had been for you.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I think when I first was with Randy and like
having this quote unquote more normal life, you know, I'd
go out to dinner with his friends, or I go
out to a company party. I just remember feeling like
my brain.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Was getting massaged.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I was like, oh, wow, people have these great, interesting,
intelligent conversations about all sorts of things, because all I
ever do is talk about climbing or the weather or
my skin or whatever, you know, just like anything related
to climbing. And so I think being with Randy and
him opening my mind to like, there are so many
(34:31):
paths you can take in life, and there are so
many ways.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
To be happy.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Whereas I was fully drinking the kool aid that climbing
was the best thing out there. We were better than
other people, We knew more than other people, Like we
are doing the right thing, and everybody else is just
living this inferior life. And so being with Randy and
seeing like all these ways people are happy, they're interested
in other things, they're challenged by other things, it was
(34:56):
just kind of this refreshing thing. And then once we
had our sun it's just another layer of how to
live life. And even before our son was born, little
things would bubble up.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I was like, I'm uncomfortable because I don't know this
person and we can't invite them into our house. And
he's like why, and you know, I try to explain
the Kyrgyzstan thing and he was like, you're safe, They're safe,
like this is all okay. And I felt very challenged
and like a little bit resentful, and he's like, I
think you could go to therapy about this, and I
(35:29):
think you could probably heal a lot from this. And
I was very much taken aback, and you know, said,
you have no idea what I went through. I don't
need to go to therapy. And so I was very
stand offish at first. But when we had our son,
it was very apparent that this little bubble and this
like tight narrow path on how I felt safe in
(35:50):
the world was not a way to raise a child.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
And so that's when I finally.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Thought, Okay, maybe I should give this a shot and
see if it's if it's possible to fifteen twenty years
later heal from PTSD.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
It's one thing to commit to therapy and to say, Okay,
I need to change. I think it's another thing to
lean in to the process of therapy and actually make
yourself available to your therapist in a way that actually
yields returns.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Honestly, it was terrifying for me because I felt like
I had built these walls around the memories and the
experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I felt like I
was surviving. I was like, I can go to sleep
at night because I have these walls. I can fly
on an airplane because I have these walls. And if
(36:39):
I break down these walls and I just let these
memories and thoughts out, that's totally unsafe. And so I
remember the first session sitting down with her and saying
that exact thing, like, are you sure, because I've been
able to go fifteen years and if this makes it
so I can't go anymore, that's not worth it to me.
(37:01):
And she assured me and reassured me, and so I
was like, I honestly just felt like I was taking
a leap of f I was like, Okay, here we go.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
And was there a short term cost to letting that
all out into the world, Because I know in the past,
when I've had irrational fears and I've been in deeply
avoidant modes, and then I engage in some kind of
exposure therapy, And sometimes it's just mental exposure therapy, right,
like allowing myself to engage in those like really uncomfortable,
painful thoughts. It is more uncomfortable in the short term,
(37:34):
but then over time you become less and less afraid
of those thoughts. They become less and less threatening.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like there were maybe a
few sessions where by the time I got home, I
was still scared and on edge and raw. I remember
there was one session in particular where you know, we
would work through thoughts and memories that were particularly difficult
(38:01):
for me, and one that was particularly difficult was the
sound of Sue hitting the ledge Like I just did
didn't let myself think about that for fifteen years, but
if I started to think about it, I could tell
I was getting very nervous and scared. So when that
session in particular, I remember looking at my therapist and
(38:26):
I could see her talking to me, and I could
hear audibly that there were words and sounds coming out
of her mouth, but I actually couldn't understand what she
was saying. And that's exactly how I was after my
first concussion. I would be at dinner with somebody and
I could see and hear that they were talking to me,
but I couldn't understand what they were saying. And I
(38:47):
told her that, I said, Wow, I can't actually hear
and understand what you're saying right now. This feels exactly
like my concussion. And she said, sometimes when people go
so deep into trauma, it's a similar response in their brain.
And I feel like there were two other sessions I
can remember that I had that similar experience that I
(39:10):
went so deep that it felt like a brain injury
or something.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Do you remember a moment when you first realized, Hey,
this confronting thing is working, I'm becoming less scared, Like,
was there a moment where you would have acted one
way in the past and then you found yourself acting differently.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I don't think there was an actual moment when I
think about it, but I do know I could feel
my anxiety and my need for control loosen over time,
and that I felt like I could actually it felt
(39:53):
like taking a big breath and just relaxing into my
body to the point where I was like, I don't
feel like I've relaxed into my body for fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Wow, I'm so happy that you have had that release. Yes,
that's wonderful, life changing. Yeah, Beth, obviously this is something
you continue to work on, and you have faced new challenges.
I've been following very closely your challenges with childbirth and
(40:23):
what it did to your body and all the discomfort there.
You've also recently talked about your experiences with peri menopause.
You've been very very vocal about all of your injuries
and for climbing and how that's affected you. I mean,
you were like miss vulnerability, and I don't know if
you ever thought you would be that person.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, I feel like it's a nice thing to be
able to have those conversations in a community that had
so much positivity in my life, but also had these
things that lurked in the shadows that weren't ever talked about.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
You know, our community has.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
So much death and trauma in it, you know, it's
just the nature of what we do, and so I
think to just know that those conversations are well, it's
a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Honestly.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, as you look back to your evolution. How would
you describe your mindset today? So before it was very
much a suck it up and persevere. How does it
look different today?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
If at all, I feel like I'm generally still bath
you know, like if I forget my water on a
climb and I need to get to the top to
get more, then I'm still that like, Okay, we got this,
Like you can.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Do this type of thing.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
But I'm also the type of person that i'm you know,
if I'm able, i'd be like, I'm actually good going down.
You know, I don't need to go to the top.
That's fine, This climb will be here tomorrow. I can
come back then. So I think I'm just much more
of like the feelings are okay, they're valid.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
You don't have to just be one way.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
To survive, which I feel like before I was always
like there is one way for success and happiness and achievement,
and if you deviate from that, bummer for you. And
now I'm like, there's a million ways. Find your own
way and it'll be great.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Thanks so much for listening. Next week we're reairing my
conversation with Tommy Caldwell so you can hear from him.
Then if that story resonated with you, or if you
faced your own version of confronting the past, we'd love
to hear from you. You can reach out to me
on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker or through my newsletter
at Changewmaya dot com. And next time, writer Sawhill Bloom
(42:57):
talks about quitting the rat race and redefining what matters
to you.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
As the years went by, I became more rather than
less focused on money being the path to living a
good life. I grew so convinced that like this one
scoreboard was the one that mattered, that every other area
of my life started to show cracks.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See
you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change
family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn, and
(43:40):
our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries
so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a
slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker
(44:01):
See you next week to
Pushkin Haysite Changers. I have exciting news. I've written a book.
It's called the Other Side of Change, Who we become
when life makes other plans. It's available for pre order
now at Change withthmaya dot com slash book. The book
(00:35):
comes out in January, and as a first time author,
pre orders make a huge difference. Your early support will
really help define the eventual success of this book, and
so if you can take a moment to order it now,
I'd be so grateful. You can also find the link
to pre order in our episode description. Okay, now onto
the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I remember just having this stark contrast in my body
of like, wow, I've I'm nailing this. I'm nailing this
thing called life to immediately total fear, total regret, total questioning,
like why am I here?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Why did I ever think this was a good idea.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Beth Rawden was kidnapped during a professional climbing expedition in Kyrgyzstan.
She was twenty years old. She survived the harrowing experience
using the mentality she'd relied on as a climber to
see pain as weakness and to suppress any negative feelings.
But when she returned home. She told me that she
(01:42):
applied this same mentality to the trauma she'd just endured.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I felt like I had built these walls around the
memories and the experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I
felt like I was surviving. And if I break down
these walls and I just let these memories and thoughts out,
that's totally unsafe.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
On today's show, when the mindset that built you starts
to break you. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies
human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans,
a show about who we are and who we become
in the face of a big change. In the year
(02:34):
two thousand, Beth Rawden was invited on a professional climbing
trip with two other climbers. Her new boyfriend, Tommy Caldwell
joined two, but Beth and her group were kidnapped by
rebel forces. They were held hostage for six days. They
witnessed brutal violence and endured freezing temperatures and extreme hunger.
(02:55):
It is a remarkable story of survival. A few years
ago I interviewed Tommy about the kidnapping and its aftermath.
At the time, I didn't know just how differently. Tommy
and Beth had processed the same In today's conversation, you're
going to hear from Beth. Beth started climbing in the
(03:15):
mid nineties when she was just a teenager. From the beginning,
she says, the climber's mentality just made sense to her.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
It's like, you suck it up to win. You know,
pain is weakness. You push through all of it to succeed.
That was the mindset or kind of the language and
climbing that really was championed. And for me, that was
something that really clicked with me because I was like,
I can do this. This doesn't seem that hard. You know,
if something hurts, I'll just ignore it. If I'm hungry,
(03:45):
I'll just ignore it. If I'm cold, I'll just ignore it,
and I'll just push through. I think I'm a pretty
driven person and stubborn as well, and so I think
that's like a blessing and a curse, and that if
I want to do something, I kind of just put
my head down until I really feel like I've put
into my all.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You ended up turning pro as a teenager. I read
that you felt superior to everyone else. You were like
on the mountains, being like all those suckers my high
school friends who now are in college sitting in classrooms
under fluorescent lights. Sucks to be them. And then there
you are scaling these incredible mountains and setting records. So
you are invited on a climbing trip to Kyrgyzstan when
(04:22):
you're twenty years old, and I'm curious to know, as
this budding climber, what are your hopes and dreams for
this particular trip.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I think for Kyrgyzstan, I hoped that it would kind
of continue this path that I felt like I was on,
pushing the limits of climbing higher, especially for females, And
then I kind of wanted to broaden my resume and
take it abroad. And we had had friends and teammates
that had gone to the same region a few years
(04:53):
prior and had a great time and told us that
it was kind of climber's paradise, so we thought we'd
have the best trip ever.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So what was it like when you first arrived? Set
the scene for me?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
The first two weeks were amazing and everything we kind
of hope for and more. It's this beautiful valley, the
Karasu Valley, This bright green grass lined valley with these
huge granite walls flanking each side and these big snow
capped mountains at the back, and we were kind of
in heaven. We were climbing during the day, we were
meeting the locals who would come up and bring us
(05:25):
fresh yak, milk and butter. And you know, we were
these four kids. Honestly at the time, I think John
was the oldest one at twenty five, just kind of
having the time of our lives.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, can you bring me back to that exact moment
when you first realized that you were in danger.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So it was about two weeks into the trip, and
we were camping on the side of this wall called
the Yellow Wall for climbers. When you camp on the
side of a wall, you either can sleep on natural
ledges or you bring up these things called portal ledges,
which are like hanging cots, and so we had two
portal ledges, and we were about one thousand feet up.
We had climbed up the day before and we had
(06:03):
spent the night, and the previous day was Tommy's birthday,
and so we like, you know, I had a little
chocolate pudding and stuff, and then right as the sky
was starting to lighten. The next morning, we heard these
really loud bangs. As climbers, there's things that you can
expect and you can kind of try and prepare for.
And initially, I think all of us assumed that it
(06:26):
was rock fall. And then when it happened again, we
looked down to the ground and we saw armed.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Men shooting up at us.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And I remember just feeling this incredible contrast in my body.
The night before, the two weeks before, the several months before,
I definitely felt like I was flying really high. I
felt like I was kind of winning in life because
it was this like kind of non traditional path that
I was taking. You know, professional climbing wasn't very mainstream
(06:59):
at all. So I remember just having this stark contrast
in my body of like, Wow, I've I'm nailing this.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
I'm nailing this thing.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Called life to immediate lee, total fear, total regret, total questioning,
like why am I here? Why did I ever think
this was a good idea. I wish I was in college,
I wish I was at home, and just regret.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You hear these gunshots and you're looking down, you're seeing
the source. Did you have any sense of the conflict
that had been brewing in the country and who was
who and who was shooting at you. I mean, how
did you even start to put those pieces together.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I had no idea of what was going on. We
had met locals and fatigues that were part of the
Kirsty and military, all super friendly kind We would share
a meal or show them like a CD or you know,
and so at first, you know, best case scenario, these
(07:56):
were people that just wanted to rob us or like
a misunderstanding or something like that. John volunteered to repel
down first, and as soon as he got down, he
radioed up immediately like super monotone, Everyone needs to come down.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Wow, tell me what happened next, Beth.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yeah, So one by one we all repelled down.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Like I had been crying a ton, so like my
shirt was soaked because of that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I was shaking.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I was scared, and I do remember when I first
got down seeing these men and they had necklaces of bullets,
they had you know, grenades on their belts, they had
semi automatic rifles, and I just remember thinking, Wow, this
is not a movie, this is not a joke, this
is really bad. And I was just completely terrified.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, how did those next few days unfold?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So that first afternoon we got in the middle of
this huge battle between the rebels and the Kyrgyzstan military.
There was gunfire back and forth, Mortars were being shot.
We saw people get killed. After that battle, for the
next next six days, we went in a big circle
in the mountains. During the day, they would hide us
(09:14):
in the smallest crevices under a boulder near the river.
They'd cover us with pine boughs and branches, and then
at night we would walk to the next place. We
were at eleven or twelve thousand feet and I was
wearing like a long sleeved shirt and pants, so we
were freezing. My jaw hurt from shivering so much. We
(09:35):
shoved a few energy bars into our pockets and we
would split those each day with our captors, so we
were surviving on like one hundred or two hundred calories
per day. For me, it was totally terrifying. I was
crying all the time. I was starving, just like scared.
I'm a person who likes a plan. I'm like, what's happening,
what's the ending here?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah? Yeah? Were you seeking comfort in the three guys
that were with you, I mean, how were you each
supporting one another?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
So during those six days we were with two captors
and they split us up during the day, so they
put me with John and they put Jason and Tommy together.
And so John was a huge support for me, and
he was just so good at redirecting my thoughts. He'd like,
ask me about my parents, He'd ask about childhood, and
(10:23):
so it was just a lot of distracting thoughts, you know,
on how to just pass the time, get through the
day type of thing.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Was there any element of you that was trying to
plot an idea for an escape and what ideas were
you able to tolerate not tolerate?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, So the whole time, John and Jason were talking
about it, and they were talking about, Okay, how can
we do this, Like do we try and steal their gun?
Do you know, if we're crossing a bridge, do we
push them off the bridge? Do we go near a cliff?
And I just remember I was totally against it. I
was like, I'm good at suffering. I can suffer, I
(11:02):
can starve if something goes wrong.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
We've seen them kill people.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
They're clearly not going to hold back if we try
and escape or try and kill them, and so I
thought it was a terrible idea.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Tommy did too.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I want to ask about your dynamic with Tommy in
particular during these days, because he was your boyfriend, you
had kind of very recently started dating before the trip,
you already even sure if you wanted to be together.
I mean, do you have any distinct memories in the
evenings when you're all reunited and you were back with
Tommy of what that dynamic was like and how it
(11:38):
was kind of rapidly evolving in these crazy circumstances.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Honestly, for me, it was a relief to be paired
with John because I felt somewhat responsible for Tommy being there.
Jason and I had the same sponsor and they were
sponsoring the trip, and Tommy was a different Companies athlete,
and so I felt responsible. But I was also very
scared for him, and so it felt like this other
(12:05):
fear that I was taking on.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Bring me to day six of this hellscape. You were
climbing this incredibly steep terrain. At this point, you were
only with one of the captors. Sue, if you're going
to make your escape, now might be the only conceivable time.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So it was this ridge, like a steep grassy ledge
that you can walk across, and then a steep section
where you kind of like do some climbing moves, and
then another steep grassy ledge. The entire time we were
going up this ridge, John and Jason were like, now,
it's the perfect time.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
It's four on one.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Like, he's totally uncomfortable, and rationally, I was thinking, they're
totally right. If there was ever a time, this is
the time. But that's a terrible idea. Something could go wrong,
anything could go wrong, and then we're dead, we're injured,
like something happens. And so as we're all nearing the top,
you can see Sue getting pretty excited to get off
(13:02):
of this ridge because he's completely uncomfortable, and so he
kind of starts to go ahead, and Tommy walks over
to me on one of these grassy ledges and he says,
it's obvious that John and Jason aren't going to do this.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Do you think I should do this?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I just remember like looking at him and feeling
in my head, oh, it sounds so nice to not
be held hostage anymore. It sounds so nice not to
be in this situation. Of course, that would be wonderful
if we could get out, but there's no way I
could ever tell him yes to go up there, because
(13:42):
what if he can't do it, or what if Sue
sees him coming pushes Tommy off, like oh my god,
you know, you know, like all the things are happening
in my head, and I'm just staring at him and
I don't say anything, and then I think he takes
that as yes, you should go do this, and so
Tommy climbs up beside Sue and grabs his gun strap
(14:05):
and pulls him off this ridge, and John and Jason
and I are near each other, and we see Sue's
body kind of like arc in the moonlight, and we
hear him kind of collapse and crunch onto this ledge
and then bounce off. And I just remember for me
(14:26):
feeling so scared because here we are and we have
no idea where he went. Is he coming right back up?
Like what's going on? Like this complete unknown. I'd never
had that visceral feeling of adrenaline before, so clearly where
all of a sudden, John and Jason and I just
(14:48):
sprinted to the top of this ridge where Tommy was
and Tommy had broken down. He's like crumpled up in
this ball, just sobbing and screaming and sobbing and screaming.
I killed someone. I fucking killed someone. I killed someone,
like over and over and over again. And I just
remember trying to him down, telling him that I loved him.
(15:12):
He said, you know, like, how can you ever love me?
How can anyone ever love me?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Now?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
And so just trying to like combat all those things
that were coming out of him. And I do remember
thinking in that moment, I can never leave Tommy now.
Look at what he's going through. Look at what he
just did for us, the four of us, Like, I
can never leave him now.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Wow. You would later learn that Sue had actually survived
that fall, but in the moment, you weren't sure. So
the four of you made a run for it. You
eventually reached a military outpost and then flew home to
the United States. What was going through your head when
you stepped off the plane?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You know, honestly, when we got home to the United States,
it was just our parents. They met us at the airport.
I wanted to just run into their arms, you know,
like of course, like a little girl like you know
I was twenty. Yeah, I wanted to be just like
their little little girl and have them like hold me
(16:15):
and comfort me and tell me it's going to be okay.
And I don't know, I just felt like I needed
to have this put together, we're fine facade, And so
that's kind of how I walked off the plane.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
We talked about the food that we had been given.
We talked about how KLM.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Upgraded us, you know, just like all the surface level details,
but none of the oh my god, I.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Am so scared, like, how can I ever go back
to normal?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
What do you think motivated this response in you? Why
didn't you just run and hug them?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I think it was probably a lot of things, Like
it'd probably be nice to point to one thing, but
I do think it was part of the climbing culture
back then to very much celebrate skirting death as an accomplishment.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
If you skirt to death getting to.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
The summit of a mountain, not only were you a
hero for summoning the mountain, but wow, you like outran
death somehow. And so we were just these kids, and
we outran death in one of the most sensational ways
I think back then, feelings in general, like therapy in
general just wasn't as talked about, it wasn't as widely accepted,
(17:31):
and so I think I just didn't also have the
language or probably the comfort to know how to say that,
like how to put words to this type of thing.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, did you feel that there was anything that you,
Beth needed to prove to yourself about the way that
you were going to respond to this traumatic episode? I
mean you might not even have called it a traumatic
episode to your point about lacking the language, but did
you come back and say, like, you know, I need
to prove to myself that I'm tough and I can
handle this.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I feel like there was probably parts of that, but
maybe if I were to go a step further, Yeah,
it was more like I I wanted to prove to
myself that I hadn't messed up by choosing this climbing path.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
It was more like, no.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You didn't make a mistake. You're gonna be okay, this
is okay, this is what happens.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, you didn't want it to be like an indictment
on your choices and your decision making abilities, right, Like
I have an identity of someone who's responsible and makes
good choices, and I can't let this experience challenge that,
and so instead I will essentially engage in denial about
my suffering.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Exactly, Yeah, exactly, and jump on the bandwagon of this
made me stronger. I will rise above this and be
better for it.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. After Beth and Tommy returned home from Kyrgyzthan,
they moved in together and got married. They threw themselves
(19:16):
back into climbing, setting individual records and quickly establishing themselves
as the it couple of climbing. They even had a
movie made about them, called The First Couple of Rock.
But while Tommy was able to find some normalcy in
his day to day life, Beth was struggling. When you
came back, what were the first signs that something wasn't
(19:40):
right in your mind and your body, and that, despite
your best efforts, these memories of your time in Kyrgyzstan
were going to be harmful and intrusive?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Gosh, I feel like it was pretty immediate. I think
there were so many signs and so many indications, and
just like one by one, I tried to bat them down.
I had nightmares immediately. I had nightmares that our captors
came to find us, that they were in my parents' house,
that they were on the block. I was terrified of
(20:11):
just the world. I felt like the world was a
very unsafe place because our captors were coming for us.
I was terrified to be hungry because any hunger reminded
me of being hungry in Kyrgyzstan, because we were hungry
the whole time. So I had food with me all
the time, and not just like a snack, like I
would bring meals with me all the time wherever we went,
(20:33):
just in case. I was really scared to be cold
again because we were cold the whole time.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
So just all these.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Things should have been signs, and I just thought they
were like things I needed to like, quote unquote deal with.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, how did your belief now that the world was
an unsafe place manifest.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Not in any proud ways. I was scared around anyone
that resembled our captors, so anybody with dark skin, dark hair,
certain clothing, And I was really terrified to be around
big groups of people, just anything where I didn't feel
(21:15):
like I could have a very tight grip of control,
like if I could control the situation, right, like I
know these people, I know this place, I know this house,
I know this driveway, I know this car.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I felt much more safe.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
But if there was any form of being out of control,
like who is this person, Oh, that's Bob's friend.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I didn't invite Bob's friend. Who is Bob's friend? I
got really scared about that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, and paranoid. It sounds like totally yeah, yeah. What
were the people in your life telling you in this
time to try to comfort you? And how were those
words landing for you in that moment.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So I went to therapy for the nightmares. I was like,
still on my parents' insurance, so I forget. I think
I got six sessions or something like that, and she
helped me. Like I thought, I checked the box, get
rid of the nightmares, and then I thought I was good.
But really I didn't talk to hardly anybody about it.
Like Tommy and I never talked about Kyrgyzstan. We talked
(22:08):
about logistics, like these people want to interview us and
or the movie might happen, But we never talked about
my nightmares, my paranoia, my fear, what he was going through.
He said he was fine. I was like, that sounds
nice to be fine. Maybe I should try what you're doing.
And so I didn't really talk. I felt like I
(22:28):
just controlled my own little bubble.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, it is stunning to me that you two never
talked about this. Were you taking his lead or were
you just going with your gut instinct like the best
way to move past this is just to ignore it.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, you know, honestly, Tommy always said he was fine.
He said he was better knowing that Sue lived, he
was stronger because of Kyrgyzstan, and he just like dove
right back into climbing. And I just felt like I
was in this realm of not being grounded in any way.
And after a year of just watching him be fine
(23:05):
as he said, I was like, I want to be
fine too. Maybe I should just push all this down,
bury it, immerse myself in climbing and move on.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
And so that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
It's like, maybe if I play the part, maybe if
I act this out long enough and just mimic whatever
Tommy's doing, I too will have that same response exactly.
You know. It's so interesting that, I mean, one of
the many motivations for wanting to invite you on the show,
is that we did have Tommy on a slight change
of plans to talk about his experience. And when I
(23:37):
heard about your different recounts of what had happened and
how you processed the trauma and Kyrgyzstan, my mind was blown. Right.
You talk in the book about how you would go
on climbs together and he would be in the zone,
in a flow state, totally pulled in and immersed in
the experience, and your mind was just totally out there, right,
(23:59):
I mean you felt like you were losing your grip
on reality, Like how did it feel to have that
disconnect between you two?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I felt like I needed to hide it because I
felt like I was doing something wrong. Like here we
are on this climb together, Tommy's crushing it. I have
the athletic and physical capability to crush it, and yet
I am scared every second of death. And so I'm like,
I can't admit this, like I'm just doing something wrong.
(24:30):
So I would hide it. I would be like this
is great, like look at us go.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
But I could never.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Tell him or tell myself that there was clearly something
else that I should probably confront and think about. I
was like I'm just not there yet. I'm not trying
hard enough, I'm not saying the right things enough, I'm
not doing the right things. Like I just need to
like correct this behavior and I'll get there.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Did you ever come close during this time to revealing
anything at all? Maybe when your emotions overwhelmed you past
a point of comfort.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I would definitely break down, But it was never I
never said it was because of Kyrgyzstan or PTSD. It
was like, I'm not strong enough. I need some more water. Oh,
we're gonna have to climb into the dark. Like our
lives were so funneled into just climbing and how to
(25:29):
be better climbers, and if there was anything else, it
was kind of dismissed. If it was like, oh, we're
having trouble with this person or this thing, I was like, Oh,
we don't worry about that sort of thing. Climbing is
the way. And so if I was having these thoughts
while climbing, it was because I wasn't trying hard enough,
I wasn't focusing hard enough. I needed to do better
(25:51):
and then I would get there.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, all of your days were dedicated to this pursuit.
You were building a home in Yo seventy together, you
were taking on climbing feats, both together and individually. You
were known as like the power couple of climbing. It
defined your relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Exactly, like everything was climbing, Like our friends were climbing.
We never took a vacation or a trip that wasn't climbing.
Everything was climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
And it sounds like the mindset that you cultivated as
a climber, the ability to push through pain, to suppress
your feelings, to be able to grin embarrass, the ability
to compartmentalize that all of those traits made it extremely
challenging for you to approach your trauma in the way
(26:39):
that you needed to totally.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And I think it's really important to state because I
know it's easy to blame other things. And I'm not
saying that it's because of this entirely, but the climbing
community at that time was so discouraging of any form
of fear or trauma or weakness. I felt like if
(27:07):
I admitted this, if people people knew I was going
to therapy, if people knew that I was still scared,
it would be such a stain on this reputation and
this career that I built that it would be almost
impossible to erase.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
So not only was.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I afraid to do it, but then I was afraid
that this would impact my marriage. Tommy was always like,
therapy's dumb, Like they don't know what they're talking about.
They didn't go through what we went through. How could
they possibly help us? So I was afraid of how
it would affect my relationship with Tommy, how it would
affected my career, you know, just and I didn't want
to be seen as a weak person. I wanted to
(27:43):
be seen as this strong person. So there was like
all this stuff wrapped up, and like why I thought
it was not a good idea to confront it?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, were you extra guarded about your vulnerable mental state
in part because you're a woman and you were already
facing such a stigma about your baseline levels of mental
fortitude or physical strength.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Back then, there was like one seat at the table
for women on an athlete team or on an expedition,
and you were going with guys, and if the guys
thought that you were weak in any imagination, then you
were not invited. And that seat was quickly given to
the next person, and so it was very much like
I had to keep up this persona that I could fill.
(28:30):
I could suck it up and I could suffer with
the best of them. But I also had this other
side of like, wow, like I have these huge feelings,
I have these big emotions, and I need help processing them.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah. So you'd been with Tommy since your early twenties
or two months before your trip to Kyrgyzstan, and then
in your late twenties you made this life changing decision.
You had told yourself at the top of that mountain,
I'm never going to leave Tommy, and you decided to
begin a new chapter of your life with your now husband, Randy.
(29:02):
I can only imagine how complicated that was for you, Beth,
to navigate, and I would love to hear what led
you to that point.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Yeah, no, it's a great question.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I started dating Tommy when I was nineteen, and we
were together like nearly a decade, married at like twenty two,
and I honestly thought after Kyrgyzstan that that was it.
Like Tommy and I were good, you know, we were
great climbing partners, we loved each other, but I think
as I went through my twenties, I started noticing things
(29:37):
in our relationship cracks. It would be this kind of
similar with PTSD. I'd notice it and then I'd just
like try and shove it away.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
What kind of things were you noticing that you learned
to ignore?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Uh, there was like a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I had so many issues with his parents, and to
the point where I mean, as you know, I'm in
my mid forties now I get but at the time,
I was like, why aren't you putting us before your parents.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
I'm like, this seems like an easy.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Thing to do, and he was just like, nope, we
got to toe this line with my parents. And I'd
be like, wow, I feel like a child.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
This is not okay. But I was like, okay, I
guess we're towing this line.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So like I feel like things like that, I started
to build resentment before and again, I think with resentment,
I was like, it's okay, and then when it would
come back another time, I was like, oh, it's stronger,
but it's okay, you know. And so I'd noticed these
things come in and.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
When you would find yourself frustrated by, for example, things
with his parents or other things that couples can just
get annoyed at one another about would you find yourself
ever saying but he saved your life, Beth, you have
to stay with him.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I think.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
At times I would probably say that, but more so
I was like, he's a great guy.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
You'll never find another great guy like this. He's a
great guy.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
You'll never find another great guy like this because Tommy's
a great guy, right, Like I don't want to ever
say Tommy's not a great guy, but people can be
great people and not the right person for you. And
so I think I heard it so much from our friends,
like Tommy's an amazing guy, that I think I just
was like, Wow, I'm like screwed if I ever am
(31:14):
not if I feel like this relationship isn't good, Like
this is the best you're ever going to get. And
I had been telling myself that. And then honestly, we
built a house together. We framed the house, we put
on the roof, like we just did, you know, like
manual labor together for a whole year, and I know,
like building a house with somebody's stressful, But it was
(31:34):
the first time that we were doing something together that
wasn't climbing. It was just like, you know, the mundane
things of like, oh, if we're going to make dinner
after a day of building, and like do we have
anything to talk about? Am I interested in what he
has to say? Is he interested in what I have
to say? Like, I'm really tired of this building? Can
we go to the beach? We've never gone to the
(31:55):
beach before. That seems uncomfortable for us. Oh, we're not
going to the beach because we don't know how to
do it. You know. It's just like all those things
that I'm like, oh, Wow, maybe this isn't it. I
don't like how we're working together, Like I don't like
how I I was just like, wow, I don't like this.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
And so after the house we went back to climbing.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I was like, we have to get back to climbing
because I can't be with that person. I don't want
to be that person in that relationship. And so we
got back to climbing and it kind of felt normalish.
But I think once I had seen that, I started
noticing cracks more and like maybe lighting resentment in maybe
like deciding to dig deeper into things that I was
bothered by that maybe I wouldn't have mentioned before. And
(32:36):
then that's when I met Randy, and I was like, oh, wow,
maybe this isn't the relationship for me. So I met
Randy while I was still married to Tommy, and I
think I was always one of those people that was
very judgy of people who had affairs or were unfaithful.
I was like, well, if you're unhappy with this person,
(32:56):
then just leave and then start the new one. I
just thought it was like a very easy thing, Like
I didn't ever think you had to stay with somebody,
but I thought you needed to be cut and dry
about it. And so I found myself in this very gosh,
it was so hard, like sticky, messy, whatever you want
to say, situation where I didn't know how to leave
(33:19):
Tommy and take the leap, and so I ended up
having an affair with Randy before I left my marriage
to Tommy.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
When you and Randy got married, your life changed in
a lot of ways. Right, He was a climber, but
he was a more of a recreational climber. He had
a much more well rounded life and normal job, and
you guys also decided to have a child together. So
much changed in terms of your orientation towards climbing, and
(33:51):
what a focal point that had been for you.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I think when I first was with Randy and like
having this quote unquote more normal life, you know, I'd
go out to dinner with his friends, or I go
out to a company party. I just remember feeling like
my brain.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Was getting massaged.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I was like, oh, wow, people have these great, interesting,
intelligent conversations about all sorts of things, because all I
ever do is talk about climbing or the weather or
my skin or whatever, you know, just like anything related
to climbing. And so I think being with Randy and
him opening my mind to like, there are so many
(34:31):
paths you can take in life, and there are so
many ways.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
To be happy.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Whereas I was fully drinking the kool aid that climbing
was the best thing out there. We were better than
other people, We knew more than other people, Like we
are doing the right thing, and everybody else is just
living this inferior life. And so being with Randy and
seeing like all these ways people are happy, they're interested
in other things, they're challenged by other things, it was
(34:56):
just kind of this refreshing thing. And then once we
had our sun it's just another layer of how to
live life. And even before our son was born, little
things would bubble up.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I was like, I'm uncomfortable because I don't know this
person and we can't invite them into our house. And
he's like why, and you know, I try to explain
the Kyrgyzstan thing and he was like, you're safe, They're safe,
like this is all okay. And I felt very challenged
and like a little bit resentful, and he's like, I
think you could go to therapy about this, and I
(35:29):
think you could probably heal a lot from this. And
I was very much taken aback, and you know, said,
you have no idea what I went through. I don't
need to go to therapy. And so I was very
stand offish at first. But when we had our son,
it was very apparent that this little bubble and this
like tight narrow path on how I felt safe in
(35:50):
the world was not a way to raise a child.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
And so that's when I finally.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Thought, Okay, maybe I should give this a shot and
see if it's if it's possible to fifteen twenty years
later heal from PTSD.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
It's one thing to commit to therapy and to say, Okay,
I need to change. I think it's another thing to
lean in to the process of therapy and actually make
yourself available to your therapist in a way that actually
yields returns.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Honestly, it was terrifying for me because I felt like
I had built these walls around the memories and the
experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I felt like I
was surviving. I was like, I can go to sleep
at night because I have these walls. I can fly
on an airplane because I have these walls. And if
(36:39):
I break down these walls and I just let these
memories and thoughts out, that's totally unsafe. And so I
remember the first session sitting down with her and saying
that exact thing, like, are you sure, because I've been
able to go fifteen years and if this makes it
so I can't go anymore, that's not worth it to me.
(37:01):
And she assured me and reassured me, and so I
was like, I honestly just felt like I was taking
a leap of f I was like, Okay, here we go.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
And was there a short term cost to letting that
all out into the world, Because I know in the past,
when I've had irrational fears and I've been in deeply
avoidant modes, and then I engage in some kind of
exposure therapy, And sometimes it's just mental exposure therapy, right,
like allowing myself to engage in those like really uncomfortable,
painful thoughts. It is more uncomfortable in the short term,
(37:34):
but then over time you become less and less afraid
of those thoughts. They become less and less threatening.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like there were maybe a
few sessions where by the time I got home, I
was still scared and on edge and raw. I remember
there was one session in particular where you know, we
would work through thoughts and memories that were particularly difficult
(38:01):
for me, and one that was particularly difficult was the
sound of Sue hitting the ledge Like I just did
didn't let myself think about that for fifteen years, but
if I started to think about it, I could tell
I was getting very nervous and scared. So when that
session in particular, I remember looking at my therapist and
(38:26):
I could see her talking to me, and I could
hear audibly that there were words and sounds coming out
of her mouth, but I actually couldn't understand what she
was saying. And that's exactly how I was after my
first concussion. I would be at dinner with somebody and
I could see and hear that they were talking to me,
but I couldn't understand what they were saying. And I
(38:47):
told her that, I said, Wow, I can't actually hear
and understand what you're saying right now. This feels exactly
like my concussion. And she said, sometimes when people go
so deep into trauma, it's a similar response in their brain.
And I feel like there were two other sessions I
can remember that I had that similar experience that I
(39:10):
went so deep that it felt like a brain injury
or something.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Do you remember a moment when you first realized, Hey,
this confronting thing is working, I'm becoming less scared, Like,
was there a moment where you would have acted one
way in the past and then you found yourself acting differently.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I don't think there was an actual moment when I
think about it, but I do know I could feel
my anxiety and my need for control loosen over time,
and that I felt like I could actually it felt
(39:53):
like taking a big breath and just relaxing into my
body to the point where I was like, I don't
feel like I've relaxed into my body for fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Wow, I'm so happy that you have had that release. Yes,
that's wonderful, life changing. Yeah, Beth, obviously this is something
you continue to work on, and you have faced new challenges.
I've been following very closely your challenges with childbirth and
(40:23):
what it did to your body and all the discomfort there.
You've also recently talked about your experiences with peri menopause.
You've been very very vocal about all of your injuries
and for climbing and how that's affected you. I mean,
you were like miss vulnerability, and I don't know if
you ever thought you would be that person.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, I feel like it's a nice thing to be
able to have those conversations in a community that had
so much positivity in my life, but also had these
things that lurked in the shadows that weren't ever talked about.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
You know, our community has.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
So much death and trauma in it, you know, it's
just the nature of what we do, and so I
think to just know that those conversations are well, it's
a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Honestly.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, as you look back to your evolution. How would
you describe your mindset today? So before it was very
much a suck it up and persevere. How does it
look different today?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
If at all, I feel like I'm generally still bath
you know, like if I forget my water on a
climb and I need to get to the top to
get more, then I'm still that like, Okay, we got this,
Like you can.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Do this type of thing.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
But I'm also the type of person that i'm you know,
if I'm able, i'd be like, I'm actually good going down.
You know, I don't need to go to the top.
That's fine, This climb will be here tomorrow. I can
come back then. So I think I'm just much more
of like the feelings are okay, they're valid.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
You don't have to just be one way.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
To survive, which I feel like before I was always
like there is one way for success and happiness and achievement,
and if you deviate from that, bummer for you. And
now I'm like, there's a million ways. Find your own
way and it'll be great.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Thanks so much for listening. Next week we're reairing my
conversation with Tommy Caldwell so you can hear from him.
Then if that story resonated with you, or if you
faced your own version of confronting the past, we'd love
to hear from you. You can reach out to me
on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker or through my newsletter
at Changewmaya dot com. And next time, writer Sawhill Bloom
(42:57):
talks about quitting the rat race and redefining what matters
to you.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
As the years went by, I became more rather than
less focused on money being the path to living a
good life. I grew so convinced that like this one
scoreboard was the one that mattered, that every other area
of my life started to show cracks.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See
you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change
family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn, and
(43:40):
our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries
so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a
slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker
(44:01):
See you next week to
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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