June 3, 2021 • 34 mins
People have been asking Hillary to change ever since the 1970s, when she defied the stereotype of First Lady of Arkansas. And she was willing to change...just never in the way people had hoped.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how
you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
you know who you are seen with or I mean,
it's just a constant judgment.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a complicated relationship with the public.
It started in the nineteen seventies when she challenged the
cookie cutter roll laid out for her as First Lady
of Arkansas.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It all occurs to me that you really don't fit
the image that we have created anymore the governor's wife
in Arkansas. You're not a native, you've been educated in
liberal East and universities.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
If you're less than forty, you don't have any children,
you don't use your husband's name, you practice law. Does
it concern you that maybe other people feel that you
don't fit the image that we have created for the
governor's wife in Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
No, that doesn't bother me, and I hope that it
doesn't bother very many people.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
But it did bother many people. Hillary being Hillary made
people uncomfortable, and so one by one, her critics started
asking her to change herself. Despite all her extraordinary accomplishments,
including senator, secretary of state, first woman to be nominated
for president by a major political party, and I mean
(01:44):
she even won the popular vote in the twenty sixteen election.
Despite all of that, people kept at it. They wanted
Hillary to be different, for her to change, and she
was willing to change, just never in the way that
people had hoped. I'm maya Shunker and this is a
slight change of plans, a show that dives deep into
(02:05):
the world of change and hopefully gets us to think
differently about change in our own lives.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Hi, how are you.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Hi. It's great to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just
wanted to welcome you formally to my closet. Yes, I
always dreamed it would be this way, you know, the
first time I met Hillary Clinton, it would be from
my makeshift recording studio with clothes everywhere. But I guess
this is the world we live in right now.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It is the world we live in. I have been
privy to many closets over the last year because as
I've been doing my podcast and talking with friends on
Zoom and everything, people are in closets. They're in corners
of their bedroom, they're in kitchens. I mean, it's just
been quite a tour of everybody's living space.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, exactly. You get an intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly.
So I'm just going to jump in. Do you mind
if I call you Hillary?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Not at all? Oh, cannot at all.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So I'd love to rewind the clock to your twenties.
We can take the little time machine back in time.
So you're a lawyer in DC, You've just wrapped up
your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then love
gets in the way and you end up moving to Arkansas,
and Bill becomes governor, and you are not the typical
(03:46):
first lady, and that's met with some resistance, right. Do
you mind sharing what it was that people were taking
issue with.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, I think that back in what would have been
the nineteenth seventies, it was still, you know, somewhat unusual
to have graduated from law school to be teaching law
or practicing law. I did both, and I really saw that,
(04:15):
but I didn't think it would impede me in any way.
And then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five,
you know, I determined that I would keep my own name,
which seemed to me to make a lot of sense,
because that's what I had written under at law school,
that's what I had practice law under taught, et cetera.
(04:37):
And I think it was really at the point that
our daughter was born in February of nineteen eighty and
Bill was having to run for reelection because there were
only two year terms for governors back then, and the
(04:59):
front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham
announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea. It was probably
that moment that really pierced people's public consciousness that oh,
my gosh, she has a different name. And then that
became a really big issue. And so when Bill lost
(05:22):
for reelection in nineteen eighty in the Reagan landslide, among
the top reasons people said that they didn't vote for
him was because I didn't take his last name or
change my name, as they would say. And it was
a truly surprising revelation to me that that would matter
(05:44):
so much to people. But now, frankly wouldn't make that
big a difference to anybody, but it was significant, and
I had so many people come to me and say,
you really have to take your husband's last name. You're
stopping him from being able to run again and be
governor again, and there's a lot at stake with him
(06:05):
being governor. And the one person who never asked me
to do that was my husband. He thought it was
pretty ridiculous also, but I concluded that it was, you know,
for me, something that I was willing to do, and
I made an announcement that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton.
(06:26):
And obviously it went against what I thought was my decision,
but I balanced all of the pros and cons and
decided that on balance, it was the right thing for
me to do.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah. I think a lot of people, women, especially face
the same kind of tension, which is knowing when it
makes sense to compromise. Right, Do I take a principled
stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked out
of the arena altogether and then lose my ability to
have impact. Or do I try to more thought fully
pick my battles and stay in the arena and just
(07:03):
play the longer game.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, that's exactly right. I was not going to stop
practicing law. I was not going to stop being outspoken
about a lot of issues that really mattered to me.
And when Bill was re elected in nineteen eighty two,
I dove back in and shared a task force to
(07:25):
reform education in the state, and it was I'm sure
easier for some people to hear the changes I was
advocating for because I was all of a sudden truly
understood to be the governor's wife. So it is a
constant balancing act, and I'm sure that's true for all people,
(07:47):
but I think you're right to say that as women,
we make those decisions constantly. And it's everything from how
you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
how loud you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
you know who you are seen with or I mean,
it's just a constant judgment both internally you're judging yourself,
(08:11):
but most importantly how you're being judged, because there continues
to be a rather active double standard.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, there's some really telling footage from back in the
day where you're getting interviewed about your role as first Lady,
and underneath your face it says Hillary Raddham and underneath
that in parentheses it says missus Bill Clinton. I mean,
I just laughed out loud, right, But I'm part of
a different generation where yes, it just seems like, of course,
(08:41):
I'm going to keep my last name. But I recognize
that at the time that was a truly bold feminist statement.
So I want to dig into that a little bit more,
which is when you did first marry Bill, what fueled
your decision to keep your last name.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I was just you know, feeling like he was going
into politics and he would have a very public life.
At that time, I never thought I would personally run
for office, but I thought I would stay as an advocate.
I'd been, you know, working for the Children's Defense Fund,
I'd been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd
(09:18):
had really fascinating important jobs for me, and I wanted
my professional life to be considered separate from his. And
I will tell you a funny story. Before I took
his last name, I was helping on a big lawsuit
(09:39):
in my law firm with one of the senior partners
and we went to trial. And we went to trial
in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the
judge was at that time under investigation, and the office
investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband.
(10:00):
So we were in the courtroom and this was the
kind of judge back in the day who would say
how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up
and twirl around to show everybody what a you know,
pretty dress I was wearing. On and on, we made
our case and we moved to be dismissed from the case,
and we were successful. So we get back to our
(10:22):
office and the next day the senior partner calls me
in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got
dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge
was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the
Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of
the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, that
young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill Clinton's wife.
(10:44):
And the judge said, well, if I've known that, I
wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now, that
to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being married
to a public figure but being very committed to my
own professional career.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I mean, I love that Bill never asked you to
change your name. So when you finally when you finally
took the plunge, what did he say to you? Was
he kind of like banks.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
But yeah, yeah, he basically said, look, you know, I
wish you wouldn't have to do this. I wish you
didn't think you had to do it. Please don't do
it for me. And you know, he said everything the
right thing, but he also encountered from a lot of
you know, his male supporters, you know, men who would say,
you know, Bill, I always thought of you as a
(11:34):
really you know, strong guy, and how come you don't
make your wife take you know, take your name. I mean,
it was such a flash point, and it it was,
you know, something that I guess both of us should
have predicted. Now we would be you know, just laughing
at it. But look at what they make big issues
(11:55):
out of today. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised
that anything which touches a cultural hot point is going
to provoke a reaction.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Do you remember the first time you introduced yourself as
Hillary Clinton? Oh?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Sure, I would. I did a press conference. I mean,
you know, I was at an event and I said, look,
I know this means a lot of a number of people,
and I don't want their concern about you know, my
last name to interfere with doing what's right. For the
state and making some tough decisions. So from now on
(12:36):
I will be known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just
did it very matter of fact. I didn't make a
big deal out of it, and you know, I assumed that. Okay,
now you can argue about me about other things. Why
is she still working? Why is she, you know, telling
(12:57):
people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers? What
is she doing? And then later why is she fighting
for healthcare and the you know, when Bill was president?
So fine, if this gets you to focus on what
I actually think is important, and that is how we're
going to live together, make tough decisions together, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
It's interesting. I mean, there was an element of a
slippery slope, which is you change your name, it's met
with positive reception, and then all of a sudden people
are like, oh yeah, but what about your hair and
your glasses, your makeup, and can we get you a stylist.
I'm curious to know whether changing any of these parts
of yourself ever affected your self perception.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
You know, I never thought any of it affected my
self perception or my identity, and there were parts that
I ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around
to forcing myself to our contact lenses. You know, it
made a big difference and how I could actually see
as well as be seen. I had a lot of
(14:00):
fun all of a sudden, you know, thinking, well, you know,
I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and baggy
vests and you know skirts and pants or whatever. So yeah,
they're parts of it that were interesting that, you know,
maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill,
(14:20):
or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't
ever feel like it affected my core as to who
I was. I never and I give my parents credit
for this maya. I never. I never really felt like
anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me,
(14:48):
because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that
or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness.
Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know,
parents who never told me that there wasn't anything I
couldn't do as a woman. And so I don't feel
like any of the sort of small choices compromises that
(15:11):
I made along the way were that significant. I did
feel so strong in my own sense of being and purpose.
I think that also caused a reaction, and I think
that was hard for people, men and women to understand.
But it's just who I am.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, I do wonder whether this is so interesting because
it almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you
to suffer a bit more from that name change. Like
I would have almost felt more satisfying if it had
been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they
were hoping you were going to give them something meaningful
(15:54):
to show how much you.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I don't know how wrong i'd been.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
How Yeah, it's like the fact that it was easy
in some sense because you're such a pragmatist right to
change your last name, left people feeling like, Okay, she
changed a last name, but damn it.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
But she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were trying.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
To change her and she's not willing to change.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's one hundred percent right. That's really perceptive, Maya. That
is exactly right. And this has been a constant theme
through my adult life. You know, there's something about women
stepping into the arena, particularly being unapologetic about it, being
(16:36):
willing to stand up against or call out strong groups
or interest groups or forces at work, whatever that is
in and of itself still somewhat surprising and even not
(16:57):
fully acceptable. And and so I I really did experience that,
and I think I paid a price for it. I
mean I think that, you know, being unapologetically outspoken and
willing to challenge conventional wisdom, you know, is discomforting for
(17:21):
a lot of people. Yeah, did I put up with
a lot of stuff? Yeah? Did I put up with
a lot of stuff when I ran for office? Yeah?
Did I put up with you know, all kinds of
you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely, some I just ignored
for you know, all the reasons that people women of
(17:42):
my age ignored that stuff. Uh, it just wasn't worth
the battle.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Even in the case of Arkansas, you made all these
superficial changes to your look and you changed your last name,
but it didn't it didn't do what people were hoping
to do, which is to break you a little bit,
you know, to like expose some deep vulnerabilities. Because what
do bullies want. Ultimately, they want to get a rise
out of you. They want to see you crack a bit.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But you know, it's so interesting. This is so interesting
to me because in the twenty sixteen campaign, like, for example,
the famous incident of the second debate where Trump is
looming over me, leering at me and trying to intimidate me,
and I'm madly going through what are my options here?
Do I turn around and say, back up, you creep?
You know, you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know,
(18:28):
try to laugh at off? What do I do? How
do I deal with what is a clearly signaled effort
on his part to his supporters that he's got the
little lady in hand, because he's a master manipulator. And
it was hard, and eventually I decided, no, you know,
(18:50):
I'm not going to respond. I'm not going to either
laugh it off or try to, you know, expose it,
because I don't want people to think I can't take it.
I mean, I'm trying to be president of the United States,
for heaven's sake. So this is a highly complicated calculation
as a woman, and I probably would guess that women
(19:14):
make that calculation dozens of times a day.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah, you know, I think this constant critique that you've
gotten over the course of your whole life is we
don't know the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder
and having this conversation. If that's a euphemism for we
don't accept the real Hillary.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Clinton is that is exactly She is not like me,
or she's not like the women that I know, or
she's not like what I want a woman to be.
You know, I used to laugh when people in the
media would say, oh, you know, she yells. Have you
(19:53):
ever gone to a rally where any man is running
for anything and he doesn't at some point yell, I mean,
good grief, look who I was running against in twenty sixteen,
and all of the yelling that went on. But you know,
that's not what we want. So this is one of
the areas that is really rich for further research and understanding,
(20:18):
because how do you communicate about that. You know, you
don't want to sound like you're whining. You don't want
to sound like you can't take it. You don't want
to sound like you're asking for special treatment. But how
do you begin to unpack that.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the White House
after her husband became president, she again challenged the cookie
cutter role laid out for her, this time as First
Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking to her
(20:57):
ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband to lead
the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It was an
ambitious role that had never been given to a first
lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately the public
criticism began to pour in. You've been under this glaring spotlight. Right,
(21:17):
It's unimaginable for a lot of people to be under
such sustained scrutiny for so many decades. And it's almost
like you've had this mirror permanently stationed in front of
you that's just been reflecting things back in the form
of a constructed Hillary, right, I mean, And so I
do wonder like, obviously many of the things reflected back
(21:39):
to you had been false, had been distorted. But was
there ever something reflected back to you over the course
of your long career that taught you something new about yourself?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yes? And you know, I think I say this often
because young people ask me all the time, how do
you get into politics? How do you take you know,
all the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I
learned to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by
that I mean your critics can teach you things that
(22:13):
your friends either won't or don't know to. You have
to be careful about where the criticism is coming from,
because a lot of times it's not well meaning, it's
not well intentioned at all, But you do have to
at least understand and try to figure out how best
(22:34):
to deal with it. So with respect to healthcare, I
you know, I learned a lot about the perceptions shaping reality.
You know. My view was that we had all these
really hardworking, incredibly smart people from all over the country
(22:56):
who were coming up with a plan that would make
it possible for us to get to universal health care
and make it affordable. So, I mean, I worked on
that very hard to help shape it and then to
help present it. But I really believe that because I
(23:17):
was the President's wife, it was hard for a lot
of people to accept the plan for what it was.
And if I had known that going in, I still
would have worked really hard on it, but I wouldn't
have headed it. Somebody else would have been the face
(23:38):
of it, because all I cared about was trying to
get it done. And you're taking it on as the
first Lady of the United States. Unpaid volunteer but nevertheless,
in that role that may just be too much for
the body politic to absorb.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
And what did that teach you about yourself in terms of,
you know, where a specific blind spot was or something
that you just needed to learn the hard way, like.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Well, I mean, it was a very big learning curve
to be in a position that was totally vicarious. You know,
everybody in a White House is there for only one reason.
The President wants them there. And who the president marries
(24:23):
ends up in the White House, who the president picks
his vice president ends up in the White House. All
these people end up in the White House. So I
didn't have agency in a way that made it my
responsibility as I did when I became a senator.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I do wonder whether learning this lesson when you were
first lady in the White House and recognizing that you
maybe didn't love playing the vicarious role ended up fueling
your interest in you know, untethering yourself and running for Senate.
Was that part of the evolution for you, Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It was. And I'll tell you the exact moment that
it all came together because I had, as I said,
no idea that I would ever actually run for office.
And then you know, having been in the White House
and knowing that it was going to end, you know,
trying to think about what I was going to do
next was pretty much on my mind. And after the
(25:26):
nineteen ninety eight midterm elections, when then Senator moynihan said
he wasn't going to run again, immediately Democrats in New
York started calling me asking me to run. And I'm
sure some of them thought I would be an excellent senator,
but a lot of them thought that I was the
only person that could think of who was available who
(25:47):
could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So, you know,
he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was
obviously tough in all of that.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So we hadn't seen anything yet, which no, I'm.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Saying, well, he lost his mind. I think I don't
know what happened to him. But so people started calling
me members of Congress and others, and I kept saying no, no, no,
no no. And then in the spring of ninety nine,
I was as first Lady in New York City at
a high school to promote women's sports. It was like
(26:22):
a Title nine event, and there was a new documentary
coming out about women in sports, and the name of
the documentary was Dare to Compete. And of course, you know,
the New York papers are filled with people trying to
get me to run, and my saying, you know, no,
et cetera. And the young woman who introduced me captain
(26:44):
of you know, basketball team, she introduced me, and then
she bent over and she whispered in my ear, dare
to compete, missus Clinton, dare to compete. I was so
astonished by that, because, you know, I had spent many
years urging women to compete, you know, in sports and
(27:05):
academics and science, in politics, I campaigned for dozens of
women running for Congress or governor, whatever election it was.
And I suddenly thought to myself, maybe you're afraid to compete.
Maybe you are telling people to do something that you
wouldn't do yourself. And it was literally at that moment
(27:27):
that I took seriously running for the Senate and working
through it and trying to be as honest with myself
as I could. I thought, Okay, I'm going to try this,
And I had no idea whether it would work or not,
because when you're supporting somebody else, and I'd support it,
(27:49):
not just my husband. But you know, hundreds of people,
you know, it's always about them, and then all of
a sudden, you know it's about you. And so it was.
It was a big trans but it was well that
young woman at that moment that really, I think turned
my head around.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
What do you think you were scared of?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think it was just the unknown. I think it
was knowing how hard politics is, because honestly, I'm kind
of an expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm
just going to be walking into the meat grinder. It's been,
you know, a very eventful eight years. I could go teach,
or write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why
(28:30):
do I want to do that? You know? Why do
I want to subject myself to that? And and remember
I had been burned in effigy along with other things,
so I knew I was already again because of all
the stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby
boomer woman who you know, didn't know her place. I
(28:51):
guess I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks,
Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why did
I want to do that? Why? And then I kind
of thought, Okay, you have been and you also believe
that there's a lot of things we need to do.
You've had a front row seat on history, so get
(29:12):
out there and try. You never know until you try.
So that's what I ended up doing.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, I think it's easy for people to think of
you now and say Hillary Clinton came out of the
box this way, right, she was she always had the
courage and bravery to run for these big offices. But
you know, you had to go through your own personal
evolution just like every other person out there. What were
(29:38):
some if you don't mind sharing, like, what were some
insecurities that you had along the way that you had
to work through?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on
your own, you're not there to advocate for a program
or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think we're
you going to be any good at it? You know,
you go from behind the scenes to the front of
the stage, and how are people going to respond to you?
(30:09):
And are they going to believe you, listen to you,
agree with you? Is your personality? Is it going to
be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of criticism,
and then you know, you get all of the gendered criticism,
like don't wear that color? Wear this color, don't wear
(30:33):
flat shoes, wear heels or vice versa. Don't let your
hair grow, don't let your hair be short. I mean,
everybody feels like they can critique a woman in the
public arena. They don't do that to men, you know,
ninety nine point nine percent of the time. And I
had some of the same experience when I practiced law,
(30:53):
because you know, there were expectations about what a woman
lawyer should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but
the amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive,
and people say things like, you know, learn to talk
like then they always feel in a man's name, like
learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learn to talk like
(31:14):
Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said, you know, all of
these kind of you know, expectations that are not at
all who you are, and what you have to do
is just learn to be yourself and just be yourself
and do the best you can, and then you know
(31:36):
you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll
be true to yourself.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I have been pretty much the same person since I
was a little girl, and I think your insights into
how that rattled a lot of people in terms of
what was to be expected. But I also think that
it still is affecting women across the board in every
(32:02):
walk of life, and so you have to first of
all be at peace with who you are, then try
to translate that into the role you're playing in an
effective way, whether it's private or personal or public, and
just get the most out of every day.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Hey, thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm
going to be talking to change expert doctor Katie Milkman
about science based strategies to help you inspire change in
your own life.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
And I was in this seminar and a graph went up,
which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed
my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how
many premature deaths are due to different causes, and forty
percent of premature deaths turn out to be the result
of decisions that we can change.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
A Slight Change of Plans is created and executive produced
by me Maya Schunker Bigue. Thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,
including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and
Julia Goodman, Executive producers Meia Lavelle and Justin Lange. Senior
editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben
(33:43):
Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis Scara, who
wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange
the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course
a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow
a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
If we hadn't talked so much about me, I have
a lot of questions for you.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I think you're slightly more interesting than me, so I'm
glad we spent the time this way. It was such
a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Good luck to you, and I hope I get to
meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope so too.
All Right, take care, okay, bye bye,
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how
you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
you know who you are seen with or I mean,
it's just a constant judgment.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a complicated relationship with the public.
It started in the nineteen seventies when she challenged the
cookie cutter roll laid out for her as First Lady
of Arkansas.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It all occurs to me that you really don't fit
the image that we have created anymore the governor's wife
in Arkansas. You're not a native, you've been educated in
liberal East and universities.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
If you're less than forty, you don't have any children,
you don't use your husband's name, you practice law. Does
it concern you that maybe other people feel that you
don't fit the image that we have created for the
governor's wife in Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
No, that doesn't bother me, and I hope that it
doesn't bother very many people.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
But it did bother many people. Hillary being Hillary made
people uncomfortable, and so one by one, her critics started
asking her to change herself. Despite all her extraordinary accomplishments,
including senator, secretary of state, first woman to be nominated
for president by a major political party, and I mean
(01:44):
she even won the popular vote in the twenty sixteen election.
Despite all of that, people kept at it. They wanted
Hillary to be different, for her to change, and she
was willing to change, just never in the way that
people had hoped. I'm maya Shunker and this is a
slight change of plans, a show that dives deep into
(02:05):
the world of change and hopefully gets us to think
differently about change in our own lives.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Hi, how are you.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Hi. It's great to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just
wanted to welcome you formally to my closet. Yes, I
always dreamed it would be this way, you know, the
first time I met Hillary Clinton, it would be from
my makeshift recording studio with clothes everywhere. But I guess
this is the world we live in right now.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It is the world we live in. I have been
privy to many closets over the last year because as
I've been doing my podcast and talking with friends on
Zoom and everything, people are in closets. They're in corners
of their bedroom, they're in kitchens. I mean, it's just
been quite a tour of everybody's living space.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, exactly. You get an intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly.
So I'm just going to jump in. Do you mind
if I call you Hillary?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Not at all? Oh, cannot at all.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So I'd love to rewind the clock to your twenties.
We can take the little time machine back in time.
So you're a lawyer in DC, You've just wrapped up
your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then love
gets in the way and you end up moving to Arkansas,
and Bill becomes governor, and you are not the typical
(03:46):
first lady, and that's met with some resistance, right. Do
you mind sharing what it was that people were taking
issue with.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, I think that back in what would have been
the nineteenth seventies, it was still, you know, somewhat unusual
to have graduated from law school to be teaching law
or practicing law. I did both, and I really saw that,
(04:15):
but I didn't think it would impede me in any way.
And then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five,
you know, I determined that I would keep my own name,
which seemed to me to make a lot of sense,
because that's what I had written under at law school,
that's what I had practice law under taught, et cetera.
(04:37):
And I think it was really at the point that
our daughter was born in February of nineteen eighty and
Bill was having to run for reelection because there were
only two year terms for governors back then, and the
(04:59):
front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham
announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea. It was probably
that moment that really pierced people's public consciousness that oh,
my gosh, she has a different name. And then that
became a really big issue. And so when Bill lost
(05:22):
for reelection in nineteen eighty in the Reagan landslide, among
the top reasons people said that they didn't vote for
him was because I didn't take his last name or
change my name, as they would say. And it was
a truly surprising revelation to me that that would matter
(05:44):
so much to people. But now, frankly wouldn't make that
big a difference to anybody, but it was significant, and
I had so many people come to me and say,
you really have to take your husband's last name. You're
stopping him from being able to run again and be
governor again, and there's a lot at stake with him
(06:05):
being governor. And the one person who never asked me
to do that was my husband. He thought it was
pretty ridiculous also, but I concluded that it was, you know,
for me, something that I was willing to do, and
I made an announcement that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton.
(06:26):
And obviously it went against what I thought was my decision,
but I balanced all of the pros and cons and
decided that on balance, it was the right thing for
me to do.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah. I think a lot of people, women, especially face
the same kind of tension, which is knowing when it
makes sense to compromise. Right, Do I take a principled
stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked out
of the arena altogether and then lose my ability to
have impact. Or do I try to more thought fully
pick my battles and stay in the arena and just
(07:03):
play the longer game.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, that's exactly right. I was not going to stop
practicing law. I was not going to stop being outspoken
about a lot of issues that really mattered to me.
And when Bill was re elected in nineteen eighty two,
I dove back in and shared a task force to
(07:25):
reform education in the state, and it was I'm sure
easier for some people to hear the changes I was
advocating for because I was all of a sudden truly
understood to be the governor's wife. So it is a
constant balancing act, and I'm sure that's true for all people,
(07:47):
but I think you're right to say that as women,
we make those decisions constantly. And it's everything from how
you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
how loud you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
you know who you are seen with or I mean,
it's just a constant judgment both internally you're judging yourself,
(08:11):
but most importantly how you're being judged, because there continues
to be a rather active double standard.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, there's some really telling footage from back in the
day where you're getting interviewed about your role as first Lady,
and underneath your face it says Hillary Raddham and underneath
that in parentheses it says missus Bill Clinton. I mean,
I just laughed out loud, right, But I'm part of
a different generation where yes, it just seems like, of course,
(08:41):
I'm going to keep my last name. But I recognize
that at the time that was a truly bold feminist statement.
So I want to dig into that a little bit more,
which is when you did first marry Bill, what fueled
your decision to keep your last name.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I was just you know, feeling like he was going
into politics and he would have a very public life.
At that time, I never thought I would personally run
for office, but I thought I would stay as an advocate.
I'd been, you know, working for the Children's Defense Fund,
I'd been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd
(09:18):
had really fascinating important jobs for me, and I wanted
my professional life to be considered separate from his. And
I will tell you a funny story. Before I took
his last name, I was helping on a big lawsuit
(09:39):
in my law firm with one of the senior partners
and we went to trial. And we went to trial
in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the
judge was at that time under investigation, and the office
investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband.
(10:00):
So we were in the courtroom and this was the
kind of judge back in the day who would say
how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up
and twirl around to show everybody what a you know,
pretty dress I was wearing. On and on, we made
our case and we moved to be dismissed from the case,
and we were successful. So we get back to our
(10:22):
office and the next day the senior partner calls me
in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got
dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge
was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the
Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of
the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, that
young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill Clinton's wife.
(10:44):
And the judge said, well, if I've known that, I
wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now, that
to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being married
to a public figure but being very committed to my
own professional career.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I mean, I love that Bill never asked you to
change your name. So when you finally when you finally
took the plunge, what did he say to you? Was
he kind of like banks.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
But yeah, yeah, he basically said, look, you know, I
wish you wouldn't have to do this. I wish you
didn't think you had to do it. Please don't do
it for me. And you know, he said everything the
right thing, but he also encountered from a lot of
you know, his male supporters, you know, men who would say,
you know, Bill, I always thought of you as a
(11:34):
really you know, strong guy, and how come you don't
make your wife take you know, take your name. I mean,
it was such a flash point, and it it was,
you know, something that I guess both of us should
have predicted. Now we would be you know, just laughing
at it. But look at what they make big issues
(11:55):
out of today. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised
that anything which touches a cultural hot point is going
to provoke a reaction.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Do you remember the first time you introduced yourself as
Hillary Clinton? Oh?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Sure, I would. I did a press conference. I mean,
you know, I was at an event and I said, look,
I know this means a lot of a number of people,
and I don't want their concern about you know, my
last name to interfere with doing what's right. For the
state and making some tough decisions. So from now on
(12:36):
I will be known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just
did it very matter of fact. I didn't make a
big deal out of it, and you know, I assumed that. Okay,
now you can argue about me about other things. Why
is she still working? Why is she, you know, telling
(12:57):
people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers? What
is she doing? And then later why is she fighting
for healthcare and the you know, when Bill was president?
So fine, if this gets you to focus on what
I actually think is important, and that is how we're
going to live together, make tough decisions together, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
It's interesting. I mean, there was an element of a
slippery slope, which is you change your name, it's met
with positive reception, and then all of a sudden people
are like, oh yeah, but what about your hair and
your glasses, your makeup, and can we get you a stylist.
I'm curious to know whether changing any of these parts
of yourself ever affected your self perception.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
You know, I never thought any of it affected my
self perception or my identity, and there were parts that
I ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around
to forcing myself to our contact lenses. You know, it
made a big difference and how I could actually see
as well as be seen. I had a lot of
(14:00):
fun all of a sudden, you know, thinking, well, you know,
I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and baggy
vests and you know skirts and pants or whatever. So yeah,
they're parts of it that were interesting that, you know,
maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill,
(14:20):
or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't
ever feel like it affected my core as to who
I was. I never and I give my parents credit
for this maya. I never. I never really felt like
anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me,
(14:48):
because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that
or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness.
Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know,
parents who never told me that there wasn't anything I
couldn't do as a woman. And so I don't feel
like any of the sort of small choices compromises that
(15:11):
I made along the way were that significant. I did
feel so strong in my own sense of being and purpose.
I think that also caused a reaction, and I think
that was hard for people, men and women to understand.
But it's just who I am.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, I do wonder whether this is so interesting because
it almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you
to suffer a bit more from that name change. Like
I would have almost felt more satisfying if it had
been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they
were hoping you were going to give them something meaningful
(15:54):
to show how much you.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I don't know how wrong i'd been.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
How Yeah, it's like the fact that it was easy
in some sense because you're such a pragmatist right to
change your last name, left people feeling like, Okay, she
changed a last name, but damn it.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
But she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were trying.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
To change her and she's not willing to change.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's one hundred percent right. That's really perceptive, Maya. That
is exactly right. And this has been a constant theme
through my adult life. You know, there's something about women
stepping into the arena, particularly being unapologetic about it, being
(16:36):
willing to stand up against or call out strong groups
or interest groups or forces at work, whatever that is
in and of itself still somewhat surprising and even not
(16:57):
fully acceptable. And and so I I really did experience that,
and I think I paid a price for it. I
mean I think that, you know, being unapologetically outspoken and
willing to challenge conventional wisdom, you know, is discomforting for
(17:21):
a lot of people. Yeah, did I put up with
a lot of stuff? Yeah? Did I put up with
a lot of stuff when I ran for office? Yeah?
Did I put up with you know, all kinds of
you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely, some I just ignored
for you know, all the reasons that people women of
(17:42):
my age ignored that stuff. Uh, it just wasn't worth
the battle.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Even in the case of Arkansas, you made all these
superficial changes to your look and you changed your last name,
but it didn't it didn't do what people were hoping
to do, which is to break you a little bit,
you know, to like expose some deep vulnerabilities. Because what
do bullies want. Ultimately, they want to get a rise
out of you. They want to see you crack a bit.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But you know, it's so interesting. This is so interesting
to me because in the twenty sixteen campaign, like, for example,
the famous incident of the second debate where Trump is
looming over me, leering at me and trying to intimidate me,
and I'm madly going through what are my options here?
Do I turn around and say, back up, you creep?
You know, you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know,
(18:28):
try to laugh at off? What do I do? How
do I deal with what is a clearly signaled effort
on his part to his supporters that he's got the
little lady in hand, because he's a master manipulator. And
it was hard, and eventually I decided, no, you know,
(18:50):
I'm not going to respond. I'm not going to either
laugh it off or try to, you know, expose it,
because I don't want people to think I can't take it.
I mean, I'm trying to be president of the United States,
for heaven's sake. So this is a highly complicated calculation
as a woman, and I probably would guess that women
(19:14):
make that calculation dozens of times a day.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah, you know, I think this constant critique that you've
gotten over the course of your whole life is we
don't know the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder
and having this conversation. If that's a euphemism for we
don't accept the real Hillary.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Clinton is that is exactly She is not like me,
or she's not like the women that I know, or
she's not like what I want a woman to be.
You know, I used to laugh when people in the
media would say, oh, you know, she yells. Have you
(19:53):
ever gone to a rally where any man is running
for anything and he doesn't at some point yell, I mean,
good grief, look who I was running against in twenty sixteen,
and all of the yelling that went on. But you know,
that's not what we want. So this is one of
the areas that is really rich for further research and understanding,
(20:18):
because how do you communicate about that. You know, you
don't want to sound like you're whining. You don't want
to sound like you can't take it. You don't want
to sound like you're asking for special treatment. But how
do you begin to unpack that.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the White House
after her husband became president, she again challenged the cookie
cutter role laid out for her, this time as First
Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking to her
(20:57):
ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband to lead
the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It was an
ambitious role that had never been given to a first
lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately the public
criticism began to pour in. You've been under this glaring spotlight. Right,
(21:17):
It's unimaginable for a lot of people to be under
such sustained scrutiny for so many decades. And it's almost
like you've had this mirror permanently stationed in front of
you that's just been reflecting things back in the form
of a constructed Hillary, right, I mean, And so I
do wonder like, obviously many of the things reflected back
(21:39):
to you had been false, had been distorted. But was
there ever something reflected back to you over the course
of your long career that taught you something new about yourself?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yes? And you know, I think I say this often
because young people ask me all the time, how do
you get into politics? How do you take you know,
all the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I
learned to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by
that I mean your critics can teach you things that
(22:13):
your friends either won't or don't know to. You have
to be careful about where the criticism is coming from,
because a lot of times it's not well meaning, it's
not well intentioned at all, But you do have to
at least understand and try to figure out how best
(22:34):
to deal with it. So with respect to healthcare, I
you know, I learned a lot about the perceptions shaping reality.
You know. My view was that we had all these
really hardworking, incredibly smart people from all over the country
(22:56):
who were coming up with a plan that would make
it possible for us to get to universal health care
and make it affordable. So, I mean, I worked on
that very hard to help shape it and then to
help present it. But I really believe that because I
(23:17):
was the President's wife, it was hard for a lot
of people to accept the plan for what it was.
And if I had known that going in, I still
would have worked really hard on it, but I wouldn't
have headed it. Somebody else would have been the face
(23:38):
of it, because all I cared about was trying to
get it done. And you're taking it on as the
first Lady of the United States. Unpaid volunteer but nevertheless,
in that role that may just be too much for
the body politic to absorb.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
And what did that teach you about yourself in terms of,
you know, where a specific blind spot was or something
that you just needed to learn the hard way, like.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Well, I mean, it was a very big learning curve
to be in a position that was totally vicarious. You know,
everybody in a White House is there for only one reason.
The President wants them there. And who the president marries
(24:23):
ends up in the White House, who the president picks
his vice president ends up in the White House. All
these people end up in the White House. So I
didn't have agency in a way that made it my
responsibility as I did when I became a senator.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I do wonder whether learning this lesson when you were
first lady in the White House and recognizing that you
maybe didn't love playing the vicarious role ended up fueling
your interest in you know, untethering yourself and running for Senate.
Was that part of the evolution for you, Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It was. And I'll tell you the exact moment that
it all came together because I had, as I said,
no idea that I would ever actually run for office.
And then you know, having been in the White House
and knowing that it was going to end, you know,
trying to think about what I was going to do
next was pretty much on my mind. And after the
(25:26):
nineteen ninety eight midterm elections, when then Senator moynihan said
he wasn't going to run again, immediately Democrats in New
York started calling me asking me to run. And I'm
sure some of them thought I would be an excellent senator,
but a lot of them thought that I was the
only person that could think of who was available who
(25:47):
could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So, you know,
he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was
obviously tough in all of that.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So we hadn't seen anything yet, which no, I'm.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Saying, well, he lost his mind. I think I don't
know what happened to him. But so people started calling
me members of Congress and others, and I kept saying no, no, no,
no no. And then in the spring of ninety nine,
I was as first Lady in New York City at
a high school to promote women's sports. It was like
(26:22):
a Title nine event, and there was a new documentary
coming out about women in sports, and the name of
the documentary was Dare to Compete. And of course, you know,
the New York papers are filled with people trying to
get me to run, and my saying, you know, no,
et cetera. And the young woman who introduced me captain
(26:44):
of you know, basketball team, she introduced me, and then
she bent over and she whispered in my ear, dare
to compete, missus Clinton, dare to compete. I was so
astonished by that, because, you know, I had spent many
years urging women to compete, you know, in sports and
(27:05):
academics and science, in politics, I campaigned for dozens of
women running for Congress or governor, whatever election it was.
And I suddenly thought to myself, maybe you're afraid to compete.
Maybe you are telling people to do something that you
wouldn't do yourself. And it was literally at that moment
(27:27):
that I took seriously running for the Senate and working
through it and trying to be as honest with myself
as I could. I thought, Okay, I'm going to try this,
And I had no idea whether it would work or not,
because when you're supporting somebody else, and I'd support it,
(27:49):
not just my husband. But you know, hundreds of people,
you know, it's always about them, and then all of
a sudden, you know it's about you. And so it was.
It was a big trans but it was well that
young woman at that moment that really, I think turned
my head around.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
What do you think you were scared of?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think it was just the unknown. I think it
was knowing how hard politics is, because honestly, I'm kind
of an expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm
just going to be walking into the meat grinder. It's been,
you know, a very eventful eight years. I could go teach,
or write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why
(28:30):
do I want to do that? You know? Why do
I want to subject myself to that? And and remember
I had been burned in effigy along with other things,
so I knew I was already again because of all
the stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby
boomer woman who you know, didn't know her place. I
(28:51):
guess I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks,
Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why did
I want to do that? Why? And then I kind
of thought, Okay, you have been and you also believe
that there's a lot of things we need to do.
You've had a front row seat on history, so get
(29:12):
out there and try. You never know until you try.
So that's what I ended up doing.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, I think it's easy for people to think of
you now and say Hillary Clinton came out of the
box this way, right, she was she always had the
courage and bravery to run for these big offices. But
you know, you had to go through your own personal
evolution just like every other person out there. What were
(29:38):
some if you don't mind sharing, like, what were some
insecurities that you had along the way that you had
to work through?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on
your own, you're not there to advocate for a program
or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think we're
you going to be any good at it? You know,
you go from behind the scenes to the front of
the stage, and how are people going to respond to you?
(30:09):
And are they going to believe you, listen to you,
agree with you? Is your personality? Is it going to
be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of criticism,
and then you know, you get all of the gendered criticism,
like don't wear that color? Wear this color, don't wear
(30:33):
flat shoes, wear heels or vice versa. Don't let your
hair grow, don't let your hair be short. I mean,
everybody feels like they can critique a woman in the
public arena. They don't do that to men, you know,
ninety nine point nine percent of the time. And I
had some of the same experience when I practiced law,
(30:53):
because you know, there were expectations about what a woman
lawyer should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but
the amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive,
and people say things like, you know, learn to talk
like then they always feel in a man's name, like
learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learn to talk like
(31:14):
Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said, you know, all of
these kind of you know, expectations that are not at
all who you are, and what you have to do
is just learn to be yourself and just be yourself
and do the best you can, and then you know
(31:36):
you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll
be true to yourself.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I have been pretty much the same person since I
was a little girl, and I think your insights into
how that rattled a lot of people in terms of
what was to be expected. But I also think that
it still is affecting women across the board in every
(32:02):
walk of life, and so you have to first of
all be at peace with who you are, then try
to translate that into the role you're playing in an
effective way, whether it's private or personal or public, and
just get the most out of every day.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Hey, thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm
going to be talking to change expert doctor Katie Milkman
about science based strategies to help you inspire change in
your own life.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
And I was in this seminar and a graph went up,
which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed
my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how
many premature deaths are due to different causes, and forty
percent of premature deaths turn out to be the result
of decisions that we can change.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
A Slight Change of Plans is created and executive produced
by me Maya Schunker Bigue. Thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,
including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and
Julia Goodman, Executive producers Meia Lavelle and Justin Lange. Senior
editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben
(33:43):
Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis Scara, who
wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange
the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course
a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow
a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
If we hadn't talked so much about me, I have
a lot of questions for you.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I think you're slightly more interesting than me, so I'm
glad we spent the time this way. It was such
a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Good luck to you, and I hope I get to
meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope so too.
All Right, take care, okay, bye bye,
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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