October 20, 2025 • 52 mins
It’s been more than a decade since Malala Yousafzai, then a 15-year-old student and advocate for girls education, survived an assassination attempt. Malala is 28 now, and she’s written an intimate new memoir called “Finding My Way,” revealing sides of her the world has never seen before. In today’s episode, Maya sits down with Malala to explore the tension that exists between the different versions of ourselves that we carry — who the world expects us to be, who our families raised us to be, and who we’re still in the process of becoming.
Watch the full video version of this interview here: https://youtu.be/q3y_-BP2Rmk?si=gVYmk-eTIOMzLP-L
Don’t forget to pre-order Maya’s book, “The Other Side of Change” at changewithmaya.com/book.
“Finding My Way: A Memoir” is out now. You can find it wherever you buy books.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show,
you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when
(00:36):
life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with
Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out
January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions
we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on
to when life shifts, what do we let go of?
And how do we find meaning on the other side.
The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you
(00:59):
haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience.
My hope is that it gives you the tools you
need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a
greater sense of possibility about who you can become on
the Other Side of Change. You can learn more and
pre order now at the link in the show notes
or at Changewmaya dot com slash book. That's changed with
(01:21):
Maya dot com slash book, And if you'd like to
get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program, which
will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation to
a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates. You
can join this new community at changewithmaya dot com slash join.
I can't wait to share this book with you. Okay,
(01:44):
now onto Malala.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I was in coma when I was seeing the world
define me or somehow now the bravest girl and the
most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like, what do you
know about being brave and being courageous? And what do
you know about being an activist?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
When Malala Usufsi enters a room, she usually doesn't need
an introduction. Most people know her story, or at least
they think they do. They might know that years ago
she was shot in the face when she was still
a schoolgirl in Pakistan, or perhaps they know that she's
the youngest ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. For
(02:22):
those of you who know of Malala but are fuzzy
on the details of her story, let me give you
a bit of context. Malala became an activist for girls'
education in her home country of Pakistan when she was
just eleven years old, blogging and speaking out against the
Thaliban band on girls attending school. In twenty twelve, when
she was fifteen, she was shot in the face by
(02:44):
Thaliban gunman who boarded her school bus after the attempted assassination.
She was immediately flown to a hospital in the UK,
where she spent a week in a coma and underwent
multiple operations. During this time, and unbeknownst to her, she
became a global icon. Malala is twenty eight now. She's
(03:05):
written a new memoir called Finding My Way, which shows
her menes sides that I had not considered as someone
who has admired her from Afar. Malala the shy schoolgirl,
the mischievous college student, the trauma survivor, and the newly
married woman who continues to grapple with societal norms like
(03:25):
marriage and having children. Malala is an expert on something
very relevant to Slight Change listeners, the tension that exists
between the different versions of ourselves that we carry, who
the world expects us to be, who our families raised
us to be, and who we're still in the process
of becoming. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior,
(03:49):
and this is a slight Change of plans, a show
about who we are and who we become in the
face of a big change. I must say there have
been a few pinch me moments in my life and
today I guess one of those pinchy moments. And I
(04:11):
always feel gratitude that I get to do the show
that sometimes it reaches an extraordinary level.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
That means so much to me.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And you're doing an amazing podcast and you are speaking
to incredible people. And I loved the name of the podcast,
A Slight Change of Plans, because this is what my
life has been like. I have been changing my plans
the whole time, so I thought, Wow, this is the
show I need to be on.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I'm so glad to hear that. I'm curious to know, Malala,
how long after you woke up from your coma did
it register that people all around the world were rallying
for you.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
This is that time of my life, which I am
still trying to process. I woke up in a hospital
in Birmingham in the UK. I was seeing nurses and
doctors speaking in English. I had to bring these pieces
of my my memories and flashbacks together to figure out
what had happened. I knew that I was attacked. I
(05:14):
knew something bad had happened, but I did not know
where my family was, who had brought me here, if
anybody even had heard my story or not I was
very focused on my physical recovery. I had to go
through multiple more surgeries for my facial nerve recovery for
my hearing, and they had removed a piece of my skull,
(05:35):
which is really hard to explain to people, because the
brain was technically swelling because of the shooting, and so
they replaced this part of that skull with a titanium plate.
And I just could not believe when somebody at the
hospital showed me photos and videos of people holding play
cards of I Am Malala, We Stand with Malala, and
(05:59):
they were just boring their support for the cause of girls' education.
And one day one of the staff members brought in
a basket of cars and notes and letters and I
was like, wow, like, so some people have even written
to me. And that's when the hospital staff member told
me that yes, there are like many more boxes like this,
(06:22):
and you have received thousands and thousands of letters. The
support of people was everything to me because that gave
me the courage to know that I was not alone
in my fight for girls education.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Did you ever feel amounting pressure within yourself that came
along with all of these people who are now following
you and supporting you. But also saw you as this
heroic symbol.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
There was a lot of pressure because of the sudden
attention that I received, and I became a girl's education activist.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
And this is what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
But I think more than it being people's pressure on me,
it was my own pressure on myself. I felt a
sense of responsibility that I am now so lucky that
I have the right to be in a school in
the UK and be a normal student, and people are
listening to my story, so I want to use it
to advocate for other girls around the world. I started
(07:24):
my nonprofit, Malana Fund, and while I was still a
student in school, I was doing all of this work.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
But I think in the middle of.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
All of this, I forgot to be myself, forgot to
be that normal person. I was in Pakistan who had friends,
who was joyful, mischievous sometimes, and I was looking for
that part of me. I was in Coma when I
was seeing the world define me. I was somehow now
(07:56):
the bravest girl and the most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like,
what do you know about being brave and being courageous
and what do you know about being an activist?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
When you were seventeen Malala in high school, as though
the hero narrative was not pervasive enough. You were awarded
the Nobel Peace Prize. And I can imagine that this
is a double edged sword kind of award because on
the one hand, it is such a boon for your
advocacy work, right it's shining one of the biggest spotlights
(08:27):
in the world on the causes you care most about.
On the other hand, what a weight to be placed
on a seventeen year old who's still figuring out or
maybe hasn't even had time to do the normal exploration
of adolescence. So how did you did you feel that weight?
Did you feel pressure or anxiety around the receiving of
(08:52):
the award because of all that it might entail.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I don't think the Nobel Peace Prize changed things that much,
because already I was at this stage where I was
receiving so many recognitions and awards that I had already
put this responsibility on myself that now you are somehow
(09:15):
in the list of all of these great activists in
the world. So you have to figure it all out.
You need to be able to fix all of these
problems that girls face. I thought, like all of the
activists we have heard of in history. They had the
magic power and they could like change everything in a day.
Because when you were a kid, that's how you learn
about heroes. So I was still like fifteen sixteen, This
(09:38):
is how I understood it. I said, Okay, like, you know,
maybe once I finished school or something like somehow like
we'll crack the code and we'll suddenly put all girls
in school.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
One thing that was so striking to me and reading
your memoir is that it showed me how it showed
me an illusion that I had fallen prey to, which
is I really had painted you as a one dimensional hero.
I think it's very easy as humans to assign holier
(10:09):
than Thou status to other human beings, right, because when
I read about your bravery as a young child, I think, oh,
she's just a different type of person. She falls into
a different category of human that is inaccessible to me.
And one gift I feel your memoir gives all of
(10:30):
its readers is it bridges the gap between someone like
me and someone like you. You reveal that you were
actually just a young girl behind this hero venir. And
so one question I have for you is, given the
way the world was portraying you in the media, right,
(10:51):
Malala the hero. Did you ever feel that you had
to distort who you were in order to fit that mold.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Short answer, yes, I think.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I thought that there is now this defined version of
me out there and I have to live up to that.
And for me, that meant that I could not expect
to have a normal life.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
And I thought it was okay, like not to have
friends in school.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I thought, you know, maybe in university as well, that's
what life is supposed to be. Like. You just go
and get the top grades and you just move on
to the busy life that you have where you are
at conferences and events and giving speeches. But you can
never really be with people your age. You can never
see boys and girls, you could never be in parties,
(11:44):
you could never like just be silly. I just thought
that that's how maybe it's supposed to be for me.
But I knew that it was not healthy and I
could not continue with that. And I realized that when
I went to university, because they were just moments when
I felt more like myself and I was like, I
(12:06):
feel like I'm a free soul here. Yeah, And it
was the first time that I felt like nobody was
watching me. I was, you know, away from my parents,
I was away from my work people.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, and it was just me in a new place.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And my neighbors were my college friends, and of course
I had security behind me, but you know, they told
me to ignore them, so I kept ignoring them.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And I was like, yeah, like, maybe just for a.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Bit, if I experienced these things where I feel like
nobody's judging me and nobody's watching me, I just want
to know what it feels like.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So I was doing things like you know, staying up
late at night, and I went to a club with
my friends for the first time, which was like you know,
our college sort of club night, and I climbed the rooftop,
which was not allowed, which was a very risky thing.
And it is such an adventure to be, you know,
that mischievous student, that rebellious student to go up there
(13:09):
to see how like not many friends were actually willing
to do it, just to know that this is a
thriller experience only some want to have. And I am
in here, like I am on the rooftop of this
college at midnight, and I can see the college security
walking down there, and I'm like they can catch us
any moment, and I could be in trouble forever.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
But I love those moments.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And I remember just sitting there on the college rooftop,
breathing in the air and taking it in and just
to know that I sort of owned the world. And
I will never forget those moments.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I think it's easy to forget that while you
were advocating for girls worldwide, right, you were this adolescence
who was coming into her own and discovering who she was.
What was it like to explore that side of yourself? Right,
Because it almost seems like you were never given the
(14:03):
luxury of time to process not only what you had
been through, the traumatic experience you'd been through, but to
actually engage in self reflection about the kind of person
that you were and the kind of person you wanted
to be. And in addition to not having the luxury
of time, you were being given instruction manuals from society,
from probably your parents, from your culture about who you
(14:27):
ought to be. Right, And so, from what I could
tell from your memoir, college was the first time when
you got to take a step back and really ask yourself,
who am I and who do I Malala want to
be without any of that societal pressure.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And I didn't have any immediate answer to that question.
But for me, it was accepting the fact that in
this college I will have experiences that will help me
find out.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I remember on the college opening week, I was signing
up for everything, different societies like the South Asia Society
and Islamic Society, and I was like, you know, I
want to play cricket, I want to play badminton, I
want to roll, want to be in this club, I
want to listen to this debate.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
I want to hang out with my friends.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
All the time, I was wondering how I'm going to
study at the same time, but I had little time
neft for that. But I wanted to explore things, and
you will. You only know more about yourself.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
When you have more experiences.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
It's just it's just not possible for you to just
sit down and like do it all in imagination. Yeah. So, yeah,
it was a blessing to be there and to get
this opportunity to have these amazing experiences.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
One of the things that you write about in your
book that I feel was so wonderfully candid and honest
and help to bridge the gap that I felt between
me and you prior to reading is you open up
about being self conscious about your face after the shooting
because the facial nerve was damaged, right, so your left
eye was drooped, your mouth only moved on one side
(16:04):
when you smiled. You developed some mechanisms to try to
conceal the extent to the facial injuries. Right, you cover
your mouth every time you smiled. And people were very
cruel online about the facial paralysis. And I appreciate your
being forthcoming about this because I think it's a very
brave thing to do. I think it's very easy to
(16:26):
dismiss views about one's appearance as simply, you know, trivial
and silly. And there's a quote from your book that
I would love to read. No matter how much confidence
I projected on stage and in speeches, I felt too
ugly to love. It was a harsh truth and one
I hated admitting to myself because it felt so vain
(16:49):
and trivial. And then later you go on to say
you don't need to be attractive to be an activist.
I told myself, tell me more about that. What a
confession for you to make. I'm so proud of you
for saying something like that.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I had to be honest in sharing more about my
insecurities because you know, I wanted to be fully myself
in this book. And as much as I tried to
keep myself as this strong, brave girl, you know, if
I was alone in my room, there was this moment
when I thought, okay, like can I be loved? Can
(17:26):
I love myself? Those moments were really heartbreaking. In college,
you know, it was the first time that I was
seeing boys my age.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Before that, I was in an all girls.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
School and even in the events and conferences that I
would go to, it was all like men a lot older.
So I had never really seen boys my age, and
I was like, you know, just for a second, I
was like, oh can I Can I be loved? Can
I be in love? And I was convincing myself like no,
(17:56):
this can never be your life. So I've just told myself, okay,
I'm never going to get married, work on me, just
give up on it. So I was like, Okay, I
can cry quietly and when I'm alone, but outside I'm
going to stay strong. So in college there was this guy,
this mysterious guy. He was just really handsome, and I
(18:21):
saw him sitting on a bench and.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I was like, oh, you know, what is he doing?
What is he a doul?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Shall I go and talk to him? He became like
my first college crush. He in the end ghosted me.
He disappeared, But in those moments, even just for like
a bit, I thought, wow, Like, even if it's one sided,
this is what love feels like.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, while you were in college, you know, you were
having this very rich, dynamic life socially, but there was
a secret that you were holding within, which was your
brain was grappling with this past trauma of yours. Right,
And it occurs to me that you never had time
(19:04):
to process what had actually happened to you. I think
coming from a South Asian background and mental health is
not really discussed. The idea of therapy is like, what,
why would you see a therapist tell me about that
experience in which you had your first panic attack and
what that was like, and had you maybe thought, oh,
that's something from my past. I can just sort of
(19:24):
put it away.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I thought I had fully recovered. I got shot
at age fifteen. For me, everything was about healing from
that bullet, and I never thought that seven years later,
I would be getting flashbacks about the incident. You know,
(19:46):
I had moved on. I was in college now, and
I had this experience in college that triggered and like
I felt like it just like reopened that whole chapter again.
So I was with some friends and they were trying bong.
So I was like, okay, Like I've never seen wong,
(20:09):
what is this? So I took one puff and I
coughed on the second attempt. When I inhaled it, I
felt like it just immediately went inside my body, and
that was the turning point.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
After that, it just froze.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I thought I could not move anymore, and I started
getting those flashbacks from the attack where I thought the
gunmen were still around me, and I thought I was dead,
or I might have just been killed, or something had happened.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
All of these thoughts were just going.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
On in my mind, and it was truly truly traumatic experience.
I just could not process time anymore. I could hear
my heart beat, I was sweating, I was shaking, I
was shivering. My mind was into the spiral of thoughts
of like, am I gonna die?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Am I dead? What happened? Was I alive?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Where am I these kind of things and it was
really really scary, to be honest, like scared yester night
I have ever experienced, and I don't know how I
made it through it. But the next day, like I realized,
I'm not the same person anymore. Things have changed now
and after that I have had many more like panic attacks, flashbacks,
(21:25):
this trauma, and I felt really frustrated that it just
opened this whole chapter for me. Like I thought I
would never need this whole mental health support and who
want to see a therapist?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I thought, I'm so strong, I am like so brave
and courageous. Those things are not for me.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, Like I survived an attack, what could break me down?
A small thing like a bomb experience that could break
me down. So for weeks then months ahead, I tried
to cope with it. My friends were everything to me
in that time. They couldn't help me exactly, but they
were showing that they were there for me. So one
(22:06):
time and I just couldn't sleep after that. Then they
said let's do a sleepover. And that was the first
time when I was able to sleep because my friends
just showed up and said, you know what, We're gonna
be here with you tonight.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's very touching.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And then eventually, like a few months later, I was
like in my final year off university then, and I
was like so overwhelmed with everything that was happening, and
I had like another major panic attack where I just
could not connect with my body.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And that's when.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I remembered my friend had told me about a therapist,
and she told me that I should see a therapist,
and she told me that it is actually quite common
for students here to see therapists.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
I was like, okay, I think now is the time.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, so yeah, Like after some point, I was like, okay,
I think I have to go and see what this
therapist has got for me. And in our first session,
I was like, here's everything about me, take it all
in and give me the meda and fix this problem.
That's when I realized that therapy is not like that.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
It's a process.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It takes time, and now it is a part of
my life. I am so grateful that I found my
way through it, and I had to accept. I had
to accept that I will never be the same old person.
This has been part of my emotional growth as well.
I had these happy and incredible days in college but
(23:37):
at the same time I had like the straw and
flashbacks as well. But all of that have helped me
to be true to myself, Like I feel like I
can get through more in life now. I'm more resilient,
and even if there's something unforeseen ahead of me, I
know I can ask for help.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. Tell me more about how you reconciled needing
(24:29):
to get mental health access with your self identity as
a type of person who was so strong and so
determined and wouldn't need this sort of thing, because in
your exceptional story lies a very universal feeling which many
of us have, which is well, well, I thought I
wouldn't need this sort of thing, and so how can
(24:50):
we think differently about ourselves in those moments?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know, I just thought like nobody would understand me.
That's a really difficult part of it. My experience was
so different, like getting attacked at fifteen, recovering from all
of that, and not having any flashbacks or panic attacks
anything for many, many years. Yes, but then it happening
all of a sudden much later, randomly in college. That
(25:19):
was the turning point. I think where I felt so
like disappointed and so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I was like why now, and like why these small things?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Why am I breaking down because of such like silly
small things that could cause a trigger, or that could
scare me, or that could emotionally affect me, mentally affect me,
Like if I could. I just wanted to remind myself,
you're brave, you're strong, you can get up. Like I
wanted my mind and everything to just like shift magically
back to normal. But you feel helpless, and that's that's
(25:55):
how I felt like I felt really helpless. So in therapy,
just to know that there's somebody listening to you, you
don't feel alone anymore. And the therapist helped me see
that emotions, thoughts, feelings, and actions are all separate and different.
And when we are overwhelmed with work, with career pressure,
(26:19):
with you know, love pressure, deciding whether to get married
or not, or what to do after we graduate, all
of these things can be overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And she used this word wind of tolerance.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
She said, we change along the way, and our window
of tolerance keep expanding and contracting along the way. Sometimes
we can take in more, sometimes we can take in less.
And she said don't be embarrassed and disappointed that you
are broken inside and that you know it's normal and
(26:56):
it's okay and you will get through it.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I want to pivot now to another tension that you
describe in your book. And I love that this whole
show is about identity and reconciling the many different parts
of ourselves. Yes, our heart for us to unpack. And
this tension is between your upbringing and the identity that
you were forging for yourself right as this feminist woman,
(27:20):
independent woman in the world. One of your earliest public
run ins with this tension came in the form of
the skinny jeans. Yes, so you chose to wear a
pair of skinny jeans while at Oxford instead of a
more traditional self archemise, which is more traditional Pakistani outfit,
and the next day your photo was plastered all over
(27:45):
newspapers in Pakistan, all over social media. There was this
total outcry. Can you describe the significance of that moment
for you?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
There was a whole controversy about me wearing jeans and
it was.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Quite chaotic.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
People who are criticizing me for wearing clothes that were
not Islamic enough for Pakistani enough for cultural enough, and
I should not be wearing skinny jeans. Why am I
not wearing traditional clothes? And at that day, actually I
had gone for rowing, so it was a.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Normal college day for me. I'm in my bobber.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Jacket, skinny jeans, I go for rowing. I realized rowing
is not for me because it requires you to get
up at five am and you need to know how
to swim, and.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I couldn't do either of those.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And then I think I took a nap or something,
and then I opened my phone and there are these
tweets and messages and then are like phone calls from
my parents, and then they started talking to me and said,
oh my god, you have cast such backlash and there's
this whole controversy now and as if like I had
been in trouble. But I was like, what, like just
because I wore jeans in college? And I told my parents,
(28:57):
I said, I'm not here for some pilgrimage. I said,
this is college. I'm not here, like can I be
a normal student?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Please?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But I realized that I could not really defend myself
on what I wear and what I don't want to wear.
And it's and you know, and you can't satisfy anybody.
There are people who are criticizing you because they think
you're not wearing clothes that are Islamic enough, and then
there are people who are criticizing you for still wearing
your headscarf.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Absolutely nobody's going to be happy, and you just.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Get objectified and people think your clothes and everything is
to satisfy what they think is right, and it's nothing
about your own choice. So for me, it's always been
about a woman's choice to decide for herself, as simple
as that, for whatever reasons, whatever she wants to wear,
let her wear and mind your own business.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
So I remember my.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Dad saying that we should maybe issue a statement, and
I was like, a statement defending what, like me wearing
jeans or apologizing I will never wear jeans because I said,
I'm going to wear jeans because I'm in college. I
want to be like any other student. Everybody wears like
hodies or like sweatbands, and you know, like it's it's
(30:14):
so normal.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, well so it's so interesting, Malala. And I think
this hearkens back to an earlier part of our conversation,
because while you did resist your parents' admonitions in that moment.
You write in your book that there was some validity
baked into that concern. You say it was true if
I wanted to promote education and equality for girls and
(30:37):
women in Pakistan, I had to be inoffensive in every way.
I felt responsible for proving that an educated girl is
not a threat. As long as I conform to my
culture's rules and dress code, no one in my community
could say, look how Malala turned out. We were right
to keep a tight leash on our daughters. And so
(30:59):
am I reading it right that one of the pressures
you felt was that you had to be the quote
perfect messenger in order for your work in girls' education
to be effective.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yes, And I think it's always a trade off.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
It's always this compromise you have to make. I don't
think you can win every heart and you can satisfy
everybody's opinions about you.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
But I knew that my cultural dress, my head scuff.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Are away for people in my culture and community to
connect with me, and that they don't see education as
a threat, but they see education and women's empowerment as
something that belongs to their culture too. And you don't
have to look different. You don't have to mimic another
culture to accept these human rights and equal access and
(31:55):
education for girls, Like we have to redefine these things
in our own culture, in our own traditions. But at
the same time, I was like, you know, there's always
a fine line between the decisions you make for your
self for what you wear. So I think it's true,
like we cannot hide this reality that Yes, as much
(32:17):
as we would want a world where women can choose
what they want to wear and people are not judging them,
but it is still true that you people look at
you how you dress, and do you represent them or not?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Can they relate to you or not.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
So I have been saying, okay, like I'll wear my
headscard because that is a way for me to stay
connected with my family. And I'm like jeans we should allow,
Like jeans are not like some sort of anti Islamic
dress code. You know, there are so many Muslim countries
and they somewhere should kam me somewhere jeans somewhere.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
You know, they're all very different clothes.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, there's no sort of like Islamic enough dress code.
I think for me, the compromise, I'm I'm willing to
make is for girls, for girls in my community that
they can get an education. I'm not willing to make
a compromise to make somebody happy or you know, I'm like, yes,
your opinion is truly correct and I'm going to address
(33:13):
this way. No, Sometimes we make compromises for a bigger mission.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah, and for me, that.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Is the girls in my community in Swath and Shanghli
in the north of Pakistan. The school project we are
supporting there where the first ever class graduated and these
are the first girls. And you know, it's like a
big number of girls who are graduating the first ones
of their family in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
They are already.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Making history and they are going to be the role
models for these generations to follow.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Wow. Yeah, that's extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Sorry, So anything for them, right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah. I think seeing change happen at home is the
most rewarding experience ever.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, because you can.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Go and talk about changing the lives of girls out there.
That work is important for me. But I wanted to
see it. I wanted to see it happen right in
front of me. And I knew that the village my
parents were born is one of those places where girls do.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Not have high schools.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Hardly one or two have made it to a university.
Somehow they have like escaped into other cities. But this
is going to be the first time when girls will
graduate and we're like redefining Gul's future.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
There, you said something very poignant. You said, I'm willing
to compromise. I'm willing to negotiate on behalf of my
work in girls' education, on behalf of those girls, but
not to make someone happy with myself. Right with me,
It's okay if someone's upset with me, Kama Malala right
(34:55):
for wearing the jeans, But I would be willing to
compromise for girls. Was that clarifying for you as you
think about having to grapple with these complex choices and
trade offs as you move forward. Were you realize you
know what I'm I have the self confidence now where
I don't have to tether my own sense of value
(35:18):
or the contributions I make to the world with my
individual choices as an individual person.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I think it's easier to say it, it's hard to
implement it. Because we experience moments when we are so
influenced by our culture, by our family that we get
stuck in that small bubble and I experienced that when
you know, I said a few things about marriage. So
(35:46):
there was this British Vogue cover about me, and I
was so excited to like be on the British Vogue
front page. I was like, this is insane. And I
remember the journalist asking me about so many things, and
then she brought up marriage.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
I was like, what marriage, Like why why do you
want to ask me?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Because at the time I was dating my now husband,
So in that moment, I immediately said, oh, well, you know,
I don't know, like why do we have to get married?
Why can't we just have a partnership, some agreement between
two people.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
But this marriage thing is just too heavy, It's too much.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
When that article came out, there was a whole different controversy,
and the trolling was insane because people were framing it
as me being against marriage and me being against the
religious Islamic like Nika ceremony, and somehow that I was
(36:44):
like promoting adultery and like it was just like disgusting,
Like when I was seeing the responses, like what are
you guys like talking about or like I'm just promoting
like some obscene stuff. Anyway, I remember how mad my
mom and dad were, especially my mom. She said, I
wish you had never said anything. And it's really hard
(37:06):
to process because you're like, you know, I can't undo it,
you know, the pieces out, I can't take my words back.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Well, why do I have to take my words back?
I am twenty three.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
I know I'm seeing a guy, but i can't talk
about it publicly yet because I'm still like figuring out
if he is the one for me or not, and
if I'm ready for marriage or not. But women should
have the right to question these institutions. And I knew
I had so much privilege and all of that, and
I knew everything about my rights, and I had an
(37:37):
income and all of that, but I was still worried
about what marriage actually means to women, how much they lose,
how their career shifts. The more you look into it,
you realize, like, it's not just a problem in the
global South. It's a challenge everywhere where women have to
make a lot more compromises and lose a lot along
(37:59):
the way from you know, even their earnings to their
career journey all of that. So I was just panicking
a bit about marriage and I loved the guy and
knew he was the right one for me, but I
was like a marriage, Like, you know, we have to
acknowledge the fact that marriage is a reality where girls
(38:21):
have lost their future. So many girls are married without
their permission, and a lot of them are married underage.
And I remembered my own friend in school who was
eleven years old who disappeared from school, and I found
out many years later that she was married off without
(38:41):
her choice, and she had two kids when she was
still a child herself. So these things are heartbreaking. This
is something we cannot look away from. This is a reality.
So because of all of that, I was.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Just overthinking about marriage.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
And when I look back, I do not regret it
for a second that I took my time and I
thought about it, and I started reading like books and
articles like Chimmanda Adichi or Bill Hoax and Tory Alderton,
and I'm just like forgetting the names. I was reading
like all of these books about love and marriage and
(39:21):
how feminist women are talking about it, and my friends
and I were just debating about these things every day.
And I was speaking to.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
My mom as well for the first time.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
To hear hard thoughts about what marriage meant to her,
But that was all part of the learning process before
I could decide to get married or not.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yeah, what ultimately influenced your decision to say yes, you
do want to get married.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I knew that I was ready to get married when
I spent time with us er, when it was just
the two of us, and I just realized that we.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Were having the best time together.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
We would go on a hike and listen to music
and play card games or poker, and I beat him
in that. Initially, I thought I would ask him dozens
of questions and I will like make sure, like you know,
I'm gonna you know when you feel like I just
need to know everything about this guy. Like it's not
like I'm not going to miss anything. I'm watching you.
(40:24):
What you think about this? And what are your opinions
about women working? And what is your opinion about a
woman earning more than men? And silly questions, right, But
I think you have to ask them because you know,
Dahl like you just never know what they say. He
was giving very sensible answers. He was saying, if a
woman earns more than the husband, she's like, wow, what
(40:45):
a blessing.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
I was like, okay, here's a good sense of humor
as well.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
But by the end of that trip I didn't need
to ask him any question at all. I knew he
was the one. I felt it, and I was like, yeah,
I am happier with this guy. And this is what
I tell to people about marriage, that you don't have
to get married, you can still think about it. I
don't tell anybody you you know you should or you shouldn't.
(41:11):
I don't have any opinion. I think everybody should do
their research on it. But whoever you choose to be with,
your life should be happier than before.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
You you're writing your book that well, it's part of
this line of questioning, right, making sure that you talk
to that gender dynamics and power and whatnot. You reveal
that you don't want kids, by the way, I want
to be careful I say this correctly. So is it
that you don't want kids or you don't want kids
right now? And you're not sure? I don't want no.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
It's like, I know we don't want to create any conversiy,
but but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
It's like if somebody asked me, I'm like, what kids?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
What are you talking about, Like that's it changes everything, right,
And I love kids like you know, and kids love
me too, Like I have the best time like with kids,
but it's just like having your own kid. Yes, that
changes your life completely, and it's it's just I'm like.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You know, when the time comes, I don't know. I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I for what it's worth. I found it so refreshing
to hear you say, at least you're writing your book.
You told him I don't want kids at least right now,
I don't want kids.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Yeah, he needs to know.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yes, he needed to know that, and he needed to
be okay with that.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yes, Like if that ever happens, he should know that
that is one reality exactly, and that if he's not
comfortable with it, he should talk to me now, because
I don't want to face any pressure later on.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
What does it feel like to rebel against some of
these very ingrained norms. So, speaking from personal experience, I
don't have kids, but I was absolutely raised to feel like,
from just cultural influences, that my self worth is contingent
upon creating children, Like that was a fundamental part of
my identity. And so I'm curious to know whether there's
(42:58):
something empowering about just coming forth and saying no, I
am questioning these norms and I am asking myself whether
they're right for me.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
For me, it's always been about taking your time to
think through it and making that decision when you feel comfortable,
when you are ready for it. So about marriage, I
took my time, I took a long time. I made
us or wait, and I said, if you truly love me,
you will wait for me. So yeah, And I think
(43:30):
in terms of like decisions in the future, when the
moment is right, we will know.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
But I just don't want to think about it right now.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
When you think back to the version of you in
high school who had lost herself, and then the version
of you who is discovering herself in college, and the
version of you now that's discovering yourself and the public
image of Malala and the expectations the world has for you,
what is your guide as you move forward and have
(44:01):
to make decisions that either prioritize yourself, prioritize others or expectations,
oritize your advocacy work. Because while almost no one will
face the exact pressures you face, everyone has some version
of this tension in their life, right, they all will
face some version of these trade offs. So how do
(44:23):
you think about that?
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Wow, I think there's a lot to unfold and a
lot to share. I can share a few things from
my personal experiences. I think the first one is you
have to be true to yourself. It is so hard
to maintain and continue through your life if you're not
true to yourself. So like, listen to your heart, listen
(44:47):
to your feelings. They're telling you something, because when you don't,
you don't realize and all of a sudden, it's all
over you and it can break you down. So I'm like,
just make sure like you are taking care of yourself.
I still remember, like I just thought sleep wasn't for me,
(45:09):
thinking water and no, I don't have time for this.
It wasn't eating well, and somehow I thought that, you know,
my work means just work only like nothing that is
outside work. But I realized that I was actually not
doing well in my work when I was not taking
care of myself. And it was also connected with mental
(45:29):
health as well. So you know, started eating better. I
drink a lot more water, you know, we have water here,
and I go for a run, I walk I try
different sports because these things just helped me unwind and
relax a bit, and it just I think it's a
(45:51):
good way to like make sure that you're looking after yourself.
And then sometimes I just remember what my therapist told me,
like if you're having that moment when it's too overwhelming
and you have that anxiety, just put your hand on
your heart and taking a deep breath seven seconds inhale,
eleven seconds exhale, and.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Take your time.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
So I don't know what's ahead. I'm doing a lot
of things that I'm excited about. My focuses on things
through which we can empower girls. We can give them
the right to education, we can create more opportunities for them.
I'm really passionate about women's sports, so that's a project
my husband and I are working together on. I love
bringing women's stories to screens and just making sure that
(46:39):
women and girls are not just talked about, but they
have the real power, that they have platforms, they have tools,
they have resources, Like that's when the real change happens.
So we're investing in their long term through education, through sports,
and you know, we're creating opportunities for them.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
That is my vision.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
So yeah, like in this book I talk about how
I want to see a better world for girls. I
know there have been many setbacks as well, including in
Afghanistan where gulls are banned from education. Even recently, the
Taliban said that they're gonna ban internet, so that is
limiting the alternative education programs that we are supporting through
(47:18):
Malala Fund. These issues affect me like they affect me emotionally.
I know I want to sound like a brave girl,
but you know, when the Taliban took over, I was
receiving my last surgery for my facial symmetry, and when
I was giving a speech about advocating for Afghan women
in South Africa at the Nesser Mandela Lecture, and I
(47:39):
was talking about how what's happening there should be recognized
as a gender apartheid and the Taliban should be held accountable.
We need more pressure. I had a panic attack in
a hotel when like everything, all events, everything was done,
and I was like, I was not scared on the stage,
everything was fine in the interviews, but in the middle
of the night, I can't breathe. My body is like shaking,
(48:05):
and I don't know if I'm gonna be alive or not.
Am I gonna like what is happening? My husband was
there for me the whole night and he supported me.
But it's just a reminder that in the end, like
we're humans, we're not that strong all the time. It
also made me reflect on what true bravery means, and
(48:28):
bravery truly is when you stand up despite.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
The hardest moments you face.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
True bravery is when you get up when you feel
like you will never be able to stand. True bravery
is when you overcome all of these challenges and you're
and you still continue and.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Do the work. Yeah. So for me was you know, yeah,
I had a panic attack.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
But I will move on, I'll ask for help, I'll
go see my therapist again, and I will continue advocating
for Afghan women and girls. I feel truly brave when
I don't give up, when I don't let myself break down.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Your memoir, it seems like an effort for you to
reclaim your story, right to say I know who the
world thinks I am, that this is actually who I am. Right,
here's who I actually am. What do you hope people
understand about you after reading this book that they perhaps
never appreciated before?
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Oh, I think people find out that I'm a funny person.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
You are very funny and very mischievous.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Yes, and that you know that was me, That was
the actual Malala when I was a kid. But I
am reclaiming that part of me. I haven't figured it
all out, but that is the reality, you know, Like
we all find our way, and this is my hope
for everybody else that we all realize that we will
find a way through it. And this process I was
(49:58):
like reconnecting to every part of me and I'm just
so happy with how it has all come together. I
cannot wait for people to read it. I want them
to know me beyond you know, the the fifteen year old.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Malala who was defined by the world.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
But this is the first time that I am reintroducing
myself and redefining my story.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Hey, thanks so much for listening. Just a reminder that
we're trying something new here on the Slight Change team.
We're now releasing full video versions of some of our episodes,
including this one. You can watch my conversation with Malala
on YouTube or at pushkin dot fm slash slight Change.
That's Pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. I'd love to
(51:02):
know what you think of these videos and if you'd
like to see more. You can reach out to me
on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker or send an email
to Slight Change at pushkin dot fm. And don't forget
to pre order my new book, The Other Side of Change.
You can find it at Changewithmaya dot com slash book
and join me next time when I talk to therapists.
(51:23):
Meg Josephson, author of the book, Are you mad at me?
About how we become people pleasers? How it hurts our
mental health and what we can do about it.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
If you're upset with me, I can't feel okay until
we're good again, Like I need to know that you're
not upset with me before I can breathe again, because
it's just so all consuming and it leads us to
feeling like I don't know who I am, I don't
know what my preferences are, I don't know what my
interests are because we've been trained to be hyper attuned
(51:53):
to what everyone else wants and thinks and feels and needs.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See
you again. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written
and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and
our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
(52:21):
theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A
Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker.
See you next week
Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show,
you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when
(00:36):
life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with
Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out
January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions
we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on
to when life shifts, what do we let go of?
And how do we find meaning on the other side.
The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you
(00:59):
haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience.
My hope is that it gives you the tools you
need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a
greater sense of possibility about who you can become on
the Other Side of Change. You can learn more and
pre order now at the link in the show notes
or at Changewmaya dot com slash book. That's changed with
(01:21):
Maya dot com slash book, And if you'd like to
get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program, which
will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation to
a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates. You
can join this new community at changewithmaya dot com slash join.
I can't wait to share this book with you. Okay,
(01:44):
now onto Malala.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I was in coma when I was seeing the world
define me or somehow now the bravest girl and the
most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like, what do you
know about being brave and being courageous? And what do
you know about being an activist?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
When Malala Usufsi enters a room, she usually doesn't need
an introduction. Most people know her story, or at least
they think they do. They might know that years ago
she was shot in the face when she was still
a schoolgirl in Pakistan, or perhaps they know that she's
the youngest ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. For
(02:22):
those of you who know of Malala but are fuzzy
on the details of her story, let me give you
a bit of context. Malala became an activist for girls'
education in her home country of Pakistan when she was
just eleven years old, blogging and speaking out against the
Thaliban band on girls attending school. In twenty twelve, when
she was fifteen, she was shot in the face by
(02:44):
Thaliban gunman who boarded her school bus after the attempted assassination.
She was immediately flown to a hospital in the UK,
where she spent a week in a coma and underwent
multiple operations. During this time, and unbeknownst to her, she
became a global icon. Malala is twenty eight now. She's
(03:05):
written a new memoir called Finding My Way, which shows
her menes sides that I had not considered as someone
who has admired her from Afar. Malala the shy schoolgirl,
the mischievous college student, the trauma survivor, and the newly
married woman who continues to grapple with societal norms like
(03:25):
marriage and having children. Malala is an expert on something
very relevant to Slight Change listeners, the tension that exists
between the different versions of ourselves that we carry, who
the world expects us to be, who our families raised
us to be, and who we're still in the process
of becoming. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior,
(03:49):
and this is a slight Change of plans, a show
about who we are and who we become in the
face of a big change. I must say there have
been a few pinch me moments in my life and
today I guess one of those pinchy moments. And I
(04:11):
always feel gratitude that I get to do the show
that sometimes it reaches an extraordinary level.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
That means so much to me.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And you're doing an amazing podcast and you are speaking
to incredible people. And I loved the name of the podcast,
A Slight Change of Plans, because this is what my
life has been like. I have been changing my plans
the whole time, so I thought, Wow, this is the
show I need to be on.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I'm so glad to hear that. I'm curious to know, Malala,
how long after you woke up from your coma did
it register that people all around the world were rallying
for you.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
This is that time of my life, which I am
still trying to process. I woke up in a hospital
in Birmingham in the UK. I was seeing nurses and
doctors speaking in English. I had to bring these pieces
of my my memories and flashbacks together to figure out
what had happened. I knew that I was attacked. I
(05:14):
knew something bad had happened, but I did not know
where my family was, who had brought me here, if
anybody even had heard my story or not I was
very focused on my physical recovery. I had to go
through multiple more surgeries for my facial nerve recovery for
my hearing, and they had removed a piece of my skull,
(05:35):
which is really hard to explain to people, because the
brain was technically swelling because of the shooting, and so
they replaced this part of that skull with a titanium plate.
And I just could not believe when somebody at the
hospital showed me photos and videos of people holding play
cards of I Am Malala, We Stand with Malala, and
(05:59):
they were just boring their support for the cause of girls' education.
And one day one of the staff members brought in
a basket of cars and notes and letters and I
was like, wow, like, so some people have even written
to me. And that's when the hospital staff member told
me that yes, there are like many more boxes like this,
(06:22):
and you have received thousands and thousands of letters. The
support of people was everything to me because that gave
me the courage to know that I was not alone
in my fight for girls education.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Did you ever feel amounting pressure within yourself that came
along with all of these people who are now following
you and supporting you. But also saw you as this
heroic symbol.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
There was a lot of pressure because of the sudden
attention that I received, and I became a girl's education activist.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
And this is what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
But I think more than it being people's pressure on me,
it was my own pressure on myself. I felt a
sense of responsibility that I am now so lucky that
I have the right to be in a school in
the UK and be a normal student, and people are
listening to my story, so I want to use it
to advocate for other girls around the world. I started
(07:24):
my nonprofit, Malana Fund, and while I was still a
student in school, I was doing all of this work.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
But I think in the middle of.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
All of this, I forgot to be myself, forgot to
be that normal person. I was in Pakistan who had friends,
who was joyful, mischievous sometimes, and I was looking for
that part of me. I was in Coma when I
was seeing the world define me. I was somehow now
(07:56):
the bravest girl and the most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like,
what do you know about being brave and being courageous
and what do you know about being an activist?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
When you were seventeen Malala in high school, as though
the hero narrative was not pervasive enough. You were awarded
the Nobel Peace Prize. And I can imagine that this
is a double edged sword kind of award because on
the one hand, it is such a boon for your
advocacy work, right it's shining one of the biggest spotlights
(08:27):
in the world on the causes you care most about.
On the other hand, what a weight to be placed
on a seventeen year old who's still figuring out or
maybe hasn't even had time to do the normal exploration
of adolescence. So how did you did you feel that weight?
Did you feel pressure or anxiety around the receiving of
(08:52):
the award because of all that it might entail.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I don't think the Nobel Peace Prize changed things that much,
because already I was at this stage where I was
receiving so many recognitions and awards that I had already
put this responsibility on myself that now you are somehow
(09:15):
in the list of all of these great activists in
the world. So you have to figure it all out.
You need to be able to fix all of these
problems that girls face. I thought, like all of the
activists we have heard of in history. They had the
magic power and they could like change everything in a day.
Because when you were a kid, that's how you learn
about heroes. So I was still like fifteen sixteen, This
(09:38):
is how I understood it. I said, Okay, like, you know,
maybe once I finished school or something like somehow like
we'll crack the code and we'll suddenly put all girls
in school.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
One thing that was so striking to me and reading
your memoir is that it showed me how it showed
me an illusion that I had fallen prey to, which
is I really had painted you as a one dimensional hero.
I think it's very easy as humans to assign holier
(10:09):
than Thou status to other human beings, right, because when
I read about your bravery as a young child, I think, oh,
she's just a different type of person. She falls into
a different category of human that is inaccessible to me.
And one gift I feel your memoir gives all of
(10:30):
its readers is it bridges the gap between someone like
me and someone like you. You reveal that you were
actually just a young girl behind this hero venir. And
so one question I have for you is, given the
way the world was portraying you in the media, right,
(10:51):
Malala the hero. Did you ever feel that you had
to distort who you were in order to fit that mold.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Short answer, yes, I think.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I thought that there is now this defined version of
me out there and I have to live up to that.
And for me, that meant that I could not expect
to have a normal life.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
And I thought it was okay, like not to have
friends in school.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I thought, you know, maybe in university as well, that's
what life is supposed to be. Like. You just go
and get the top grades and you just move on
to the busy life that you have where you are
at conferences and events and giving speeches. But you can
never really be with people your age. You can never
see boys and girls, you could never be in parties,
(11:44):
you could never like just be silly. I just thought
that that's how maybe it's supposed to be for me.
But I knew that it was not healthy and I
could not continue with that. And I realized that when
I went to university, because they were just moments when
I felt more like myself and I was like, I
(12:06):
feel like I'm a free soul here. Yeah, And it
was the first time that I felt like nobody was
watching me. I was, you know, away from my parents,
I was away from my work people.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, and it was just me in a new place.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And my neighbors were my college friends, and of course
I had security behind me, but you know, they told
me to ignore them, so I kept ignoring them.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And I was like, yeah, like, maybe just for a.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Bit, if I experienced these things where I feel like
nobody's judging me and nobody's watching me, I just want
to know what it feels like.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So I was doing things like you know, staying up
late at night, and I went to a club with
my friends for the first time, which was like you know,
our college sort of club night, and I climbed the rooftop,
which was not allowed, which was a very risky thing.
And it is such an adventure to be, you know,
that mischievous student, that rebellious student to go up there
(13:09):
to see how like not many friends were actually willing
to do it, just to know that this is a
thriller experience only some want to have. And I am
in here, like I am on the rooftop of this
college at midnight, and I can see the college security
walking down there, and I'm like they can catch us
any moment, and I could be in trouble forever.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
But I love those moments.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And I remember just sitting there on the college rooftop,
breathing in the air and taking it in and just
to know that I sort of owned the world. And
I will never forget those moments.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I think it's easy to forget that while you
were advocating for girls worldwide, right, you were this adolescence
who was coming into her own and discovering who she was.
What was it like to explore that side of yourself? Right,
Because it almost seems like you were never given the
(14:03):
luxury of time to process not only what you had
been through, the traumatic experience you'd been through, but to
actually engage in self reflection about the kind of person
that you were and the kind of person you wanted
to be. And in addition to not having the luxury
of time, you were being given instruction manuals from society,
from probably your parents, from your culture about who you
(14:27):
ought to be. Right, And so, from what I could
tell from your memoir, college was the first time when
you got to take a step back and really ask yourself,
who am I and who do I Malala want to
be without any of that societal pressure.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And I didn't have any immediate answer to that question.
But for me, it was accepting the fact that in
this college I will have experiences that will help me
find out.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I remember on the college opening week, I was signing
up for everything, different societies like the South Asia Society
and Islamic Society, and I was like, you know, I
want to play cricket, I want to play badminton, I
want to roll, want to be in this club, I
want to listen to this debate.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
I want to hang out with my friends.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
All the time, I was wondering how I'm going to
study at the same time, but I had little time
neft for that. But I wanted to explore things, and
you will. You only know more about yourself.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
When you have more experiences.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
It's just it's just not possible for you to just
sit down and like do it all in imagination. Yeah. So, yeah,
it was a blessing to be there and to get
this opportunity to have these amazing experiences.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
One of the things that you write about in your
book that I feel was so wonderfully candid and honest
and help to bridge the gap that I felt between
me and you prior to reading is you open up
about being self conscious about your face after the shooting
because the facial nerve was damaged, right, so your left
eye was drooped, your mouth only moved on one side
(16:04):
when you smiled. You developed some mechanisms to try to
conceal the extent to the facial injuries. Right, you cover
your mouth every time you smiled. And people were very
cruel online about the facial paralysis. And I appreciate your
being forthcoming about this because I think it's a very
brave thing to do. I think it's very easy to
(16:26):
dismiss views about one's appearance as simply, you know, trivial
and silly. And there's a quote from your book that
I would love to read. No matter how much confidence
I projected on stage and in speeches, I felt too
ugly to love. It was a harsh truth and one
I hated admitting to myself because it felt so vain
(16:49):
and trivial. And then later you go on to say
you don't need to be attractive to be an activist.
I told myself, tell me more about that. What a
confession for you to make. I'm so proud of you
for saying something like that.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I had to be honest in sharing more about my
insecurities because you know, I wanted to be fully myself
in this book. And as much as I tried to
keep myself as this strong, brave girl, you know, if
I was alone in my room, there was this moment
when I thought, okay, like can I be loved? Can
(17:26):
I love myself? Those moments were really heartbreaking. In college,
you know, it was the first time that I was
seeing boys my age.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Before that, I was in an all girls.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
School and even in the events and conferences that I
would go to, it was all like men a lot older.
So I had never really seen boys my age, and
I was like, you know, just for a second, I
was like, oh can I Can I be loved? Can
I be in love? And I was convincing myself like no,
(17:56):
this can never be your life. So I've just told myself, okay,
I'm never going to get married, work on me, just
give up on it. So I was like, Okay, I
can cry quietly and when I'm alone, but outside I'm
going to stay strong. So in college there was this guy,
this mysterious guy. He was just really handsome, and I
(18:21):
saw him sitting on a bench and.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I was like, oh, you know, what is he doing?
What is he a doul?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Shall I go and talk to him? He became like
my first college crush. He in the end ghosted me.
He disappeared, But in those moments, even just for like
a bit, I thought, wow, Like, even if it's one sided,
this is what love feels like.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, while you were in college, you know, you were
having this very rich, dynamic life socially, but there was
a secret that you were holding within, which was your
brain was grappling with this past trauma of yours. Right,
And it occurs to me that you never had time
(19:04):
to process what had actually happened to you. I think
coming from a South Asian background and mental health is
not really discussed. The idea of therapy is like, what,
why would you see a therapist tell me about that
experience in which you had your first panic attack and
what that was like, and had you maybe thought, oh,
that's something from my past. I can just sort of
(19:24):
put it away.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I thought I had fully recovered. I got shot
at age fifteen. For me, everything was about healing from
that bullet, and I never thought that seven years later,
I would be getting flashbacks about the incident. You know,
(19:46):
I had moved on. I was in college now, and
I had this experience in college that triggered and like
I felt like it just like reopened that whole chapter again.
So I was with some friends and they were trying bong.
So I was like, okay, Like I've never seen wong,
(20:09):
what is this? So I took one puff and I
coughed on the second attempt. When I inhaled it, I
felt like it just immediately went inside my body, and
that was the turning point.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
After that, it just froze.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I thought I could not move anymore, and I started
getting those flashbacks from the attack where I thought the
gunmen were still around me, and I thought I was dead,
or I might have just been killed, or something had happened.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
All of these thoughts were just going.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
On in my mind, and it was truly truly traumatic experience.
I just could not process time anymore. I could hear
my heart beat, I was sweating, I was shaking, I
was shivering. My mind was into the spiral of thoughts
of like, am I gonna die?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Am I dead? What happened? Was I alive?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Where am I these kind of things and it was
really really scary, to be honest, like scared yester night
I have ever experienced, and I don't know how I
made it through it. But the next day, like I realized,
I'm not the same person anymore. Things have changed now
and after that I have had many more like panic attacks, flashbacks,
(21:25):
this trauma, and I felt really frustrated that it just
opened this whole chapter for me. Like I thought I
would never need this whole mental health support and who
want to see a therapist?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I thought, I'm so strong, I am like so brave
and courageous. Those things are not for me.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, Like I survived an attack, what could break me down?
A small thing like a bomb experience that could break
me down. So for weeks then months ahead, I tried
to cope with it. My friends were everything to me
in that time. They couldn't help me exactly, but they
were showing that they were there for me. So one
(22:06):
time and I just couldn't sleep after that. Then they
said let's do a sleepover. And that was the first
time when I was able to sleep because my friends
just showed up and said, you know what, We're gonna
be here with you tonight.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's very touching.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And then eventually, like a few months later, I was
like in my final year off university then, and I
was like so overwhelmed with everything that was happening, and
I had like another major panic attack where I just
could not connect with my body.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And that's when.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I remembered my friend had told me about a therapist,
and she told me that I should see a therapist,
and she told me that it is actually quite common
for students here to see therapists.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
I was like, okay, I think now is the time.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, so yeah, Like after some point, I was like, okay,
I think I have to go and see what this
therapist has got for me. And in our first session,
I was like, here's everything about me, take it all
in and give me the meda and fix this problem.
That's when I realized that therapy is not like that.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
It's a process.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It takes time, and now it is a part of
my life. I am so grateful that I found my
way through it, and I had to accept. I had
to accept that I will never be the same old person.
This has been part of my emotional growth as well.
I had these happy and incredible days in college but
(23:37):
at the same time I had like the straw and
flashbacks as well. But all of that have helped me
to be true to myself, Like I feel like I
can get through more in life now. I'm more resilient,
and even if there's something unforeseen ahead of me, I
know I can ask for help.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. Tell me more about how you reconciled needing
(24:29):
to get mental health access with your self identity as
a type of person who was so strong and so
determined and wouldn't need this sort of thing, because in
your exceptional story lies a very universal feeling which many
of us have, which is well, well, I thought I
wouldn't need this sort of thing, and so how can
(24:50):
we think differently about ourselves in those moments?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know, I just thought like nobody would understand me.
That's a really difficult part of it. My experience was
so different, like getting attacked at fifteen, recovering from all
of that, and not having any flashbacks or panic attacks
anything for many, many years. Yes, but then it happening
all of a sudden much later, randomly in college. That
(25:19):
was the turning point. I think where I felt so
like disappointed and so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I was like why now, and like why these small things?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Why am I breaking down because of such like silly
small things that could cause a trigger, or that could
scare me, or that could emotionally affect me, mentally affect me,
Like if I could. I just wanted to remind myself,
you're brave, you're strong, you can get up. Like I
wanted my mind and everything to just like shift magically
back to normal. But you feel helpless, and that's that's
(25:55):
how I felt like I felt really helpless. So in therapy,
just to know that there's somebody listening to you, you
don't feel alone anymore. And the therapist helped me see
that emotions, thoughts, feelings, and actions are all separate and different.
And when we are overwhelmed with work, with career pressure,
(26:19):
with you know, love pressure, deciding whether to get married
or not, or what to do after we graduate, all
of these things can be overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And she used this word wind of tolerance.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
She said, we change along the way, and our window
of tolerance keep expanding and contracting along the way. Sometimes
we can take in more, sometimes we can take in less.
And she said don't be embarrassed and disappointed that you
are broken inside and that you know it's normal and
(26:56):
it's okay and you will get through it.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I want to pivot now to another tension that you
describe in your book. And I love that this whole
show is about identity and reconciling the many different parts
of ourselves. Yes, our heart for us to unpack. And
this tension is between your upbringing and the identity that
you were forging for yourself right as this feminist woman,
(27:20):
independent woman in the world. One of your earliest public
run ins with this tension came in the form of
the skinny jeans. Yes, so you chose to wear a
pair of skinny jeans while at Oxford instead of a
more traditional self archemise, which is more traditional Pakistani outfit,
and the next day your photo was plastered all over
(27:45):
newspapers in Pakistan, all over social media. There was this
total outcry. Can you describe the significance of that moment
for you?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
There was a whole controversy about me wearing jeans and
it was.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Quite chaotic.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
People who are criticizing me for wearing clothes that were
not Islamic enough for Pakistani enough for cultural enough, and
I should not be wearing skinny jeans. Why am I
not wearing traditional clothes? And at that day, actually I
had gone for rowing, so it was a.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Normal college day for me. I'm in my bobber.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Jacket, skinny jeans, I go for rowing. I realized rowing
is not for me because it requires you to get
up at five am and you need to know how
to swim, and.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I couldn't do either of those.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And then I think I took a nap or something,
and then I opened my phone and there are these
tweets and messages and then are like phone calls from
my parents, and then they started talking to me and said,
oh my god, you have cast such backlash and there's
this whole controversy now and as if like I had
been in trouble. But I was like, what, like just
because I wore jeans in college? And I told my parents,
(28:57):
I said, I'm not here for some pilgrimage. I said,
this is college. I'm not here, like can I be
a normal student?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Please?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But I realized that I could not really defend myself
on what I wear and what I don't want to wear.
And it's and you know, and you can't satisfy anybody.
There are people who are criticizing you because they think
you're not wearing clothes that are Islamic enough, and then
there are people who are criticizing you for still wearing
your headscarf.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Absolutely nobody's going to be happy, and you just.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Get objectified and people think your clothes and everything is
to satisfy what they think is right, and it's nothing
about your own choice. So for me, it's always been
about a woman's choice to decide for herself, as simple
as that, for whatever reasons, whatever she wants to wear,
let her wear and mind your own business.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
So I remember my.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Dad saying that we should maybe issue a statement, and
I was like, a statement defending what, like me wearing
jeans or apologizing I will never wear jeans because I said,
I'm going to wear jeans because I'm in college. I
want to be like any other student. Everybody wears like
hodies or like sweatbands, and you know, like it's it's
(30:14):
so normal.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, well so it's so interesting, Malala. And I think
this hearkens back to an earlier part of our conversation,
because while you did resist your parents' admonitions in that moment.
You write in your book that there was some validity
baked into that concern. You say it was true if
I wanted to promote education and equality for girls and
(30:37):
women in Pakistan, I had to be inoffensive in every way.
I felt responsible for proving that an educated girl is
not a threat. As long as I conform to my
culture's rules and dress code, no one in my community
could say, look how Malala turned out. We were right
to keep a tight leash on our daughters. And so
(30:59):
am I reading it right that one of the pressures
you felt was that you had to be the quote
perfect messenger in order for your work in girls' education
to be effective.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yes, And I think it's always a trade off.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
It's always this compromise you have to make. I don't
think you can win every heart and you can satisfy
everybody's opinions about you.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
But I knew that my cultural dress, my head scuff.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Are away for people in my culture and community to
connect with me, and that they don't see education as
a threat, but they see education and women's empowerment as
something that belongs to their culture too. And you don't
have to look different. You don't have to mimic another
culture to accept these human rights and equal access and
(31:55):
education for girls, Like we have to redefine these things
in our own culture, in our own traditions. But at
the same time, I was like, you know, there's always
a fine line between the decisions you make for your
self for what you wear. So I think it's true,
like we cannot hide this reality that Yes, as much
(32:17):
as we would want a world where women can choose
what they want to wear and people are not judging them,
but it is still true that you people look at
you how you dress, and do you represent them or not?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Can they relate to you or not.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
So I have been saying, okay, like I'll wear my
headscard because that is a way for me to stay
connected with my family. And I'm like jeans we should allow,
Like jeans are not like some sort of anti Islamic
dress code. You know, there are so many Muslim countries
and they somewhere should kam me somewhere jeans somewhere.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
You know, they're all very different clothes.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, there's no sort of like Islamic enough dress code.
I think for me, the compromise, I'm I'm willing to
make is for girls, for girls in my community that
they can get an education. I'm not willing to make
a compromise to make somebody happy or you know, I'm like, yes,
your opinion is truly correct and I'm going to address
(33:13):
this way. No, Sometimes we make compromises for a bigger mission.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah, and for me, that.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Is the girls in my community in Swath and Shanghli
in the north of Pakistan. The school project we are
supporting there where the first ever class graduated and these
are the first girls. And you know, it's like a
big number of girls who are graduating the first ones
of their family in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
They are already.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Making history and they are going to be the role
models for these generations to follow.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Wow. Yeah, that's extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Sorry, So anything for them, right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah. I think seeing change happen at home is the
most rewarding experience ever.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, because you can.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Go and talk about changing the lives of girls out there.
That work is important for me. But I wanted to
see it. I wanted to see it happen right in
front of me. And I knew that the village my
parents were born is one of those places where girls do.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Not have high schools.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Hardly one or two have made it to a university.
Somehow they have like escaped into other cities. But this
is going to be the first time when girls will
graduate and we're like redefining Gul's future.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
There, you said something very poignant. You said, I'm willing
to compromise. I'm willing to negotiate on behalf of my
work in girls' education, on behalf of those girls, but
not to make someone happy with myself. Right with me,
It's okay if someone's upset with me, Kama Malala right
(34:55):
for wearing the jeans, But I would be willing to
compromise for girls. Was that clarifying for you as you
think about having to grapple with these complex choices and
trade offs as you move forward. Were you realize you
know what I'm I have the self confidence now where
I don't have to tether my own sense of value
(35:18):
or the contributions I make to the world with my
individual choices as an individual person.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I think it's easier to say it, it's hard to
implement it. Because we experience moments when we are so
influenced by our culture, by our family that we get
stuck in that small bubble and I experienced that when
you know, I said a few things about marriage. So
(35:46):
there was this British Vogue cover about me, and I
was so excited to like be on the British Vogue
front page. I was like, this is insane. And I
remember the journalist asking me about so many things, and
then she brought up marriage.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
I was like, what marriage, Like why why do you
want to ask me?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Because at the time I was dating my now husband,
So in that moment, I immediately said, oh, well, you know,
I don't know, like why do we have to get married?
Why can't we just have a partnership, some agreement between
two people.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
But this marriage thing is just too heavy, It's too much.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
When that article came out, there was a whole different controversy,
and the trolling was insane because people were framing it
as me being against marriage and me being against the
religious Islamic like Nika ceremony, and somehow that I was
(36:44):
like promoting adultery and like it was just like disgusting,
Like when I was seeing the responses, like what are
you guys like talking about or like I'm just promoting
like some obscene stuff. Anyway, I remember how mad my
mom and dad were, especially my mom. She said, I
wish you had never said anything. And it's really hard
(37:06):
to process because you're like, you know, I can't undo it,
you know, the pieces out, I can't take my words back.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Well, why do I have to take my words back?
I am twenty three.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
I know I'm seeing a guy, but i can't talk
about it publicly yet because I'm still like figuring out
if he is the one for me or not, and
if I'm ready for marriage or not. But women should
have the right to question these institutions. And I knew
I had so much privilege and all of that, and
I knew everything about my rights, and I had an
(37:37):
income and all of that, but I was still worried
about what marriage actually means to women, how much they lose,
how their career shifts. The more you look into it,
you realize, like, it's not just a problem in the
global South. It's a challenge everywhere where women have to
make a lot more compromises and lose a lot along
(37:59):
the way from you know, even their earnings to their
career journey all of that. So I was just panicking
a bit about marriage and I loved the guy and
knew he was the right one for me, but I
was like a marriage, Like, you know, we have to
acknowledge the fact that marriage is a reality where girls
(38:21):
have lost their future. So many girls are married without
their permission, and a lot of them are married underage.
And I remembered my own friend in school who was
eleven years old who disappeared from school, and I found
out many years later that she was married off without
(38:41):
her choice, and she had two kids when she was
still a child herself. So these things are heartbreaking. This
is something we cannot look away from. This is a reality.
So because of all of that, I was.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Just overthinking about marriage.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
And when I look back, I do not regret it
for a second that I took my time and I
thought about it, and I started reading like books and
articles like Chimmanda Adichi or Bill Hoax and Tory Alderton,
and I'm just like forgetting the names. I was reading
like all of these books about love and marriage and
(39:21):
how feminist women are talking about it, and my friends
and I were just debating about these things every day.
And I was speaking to.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
My mom as well for the first time.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
To hear hard thoughts about what marriage meant to her,
But that was all part of the learning process before
I could decide to get married or not.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yeah, what ultimately influenced your decision to say yes, you
do want to get married.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I knew that I was ready to get married when
I spent time with us er, when it was just
the two of us, and I just realized that we.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Were having the best time together.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
We would go on a hike and listen to music
and play card games or poker, and I beat him
in that. Initially, I thought I would ask him dozens
of questions and I will like make sure, like you know,
I'm gonna you know when you feel like I just
need to know everything about this guy. Like it's not
like I'm not going to miss anything. I'm watching you.
(40:24):
What you think about this? And what are your opinions
about women working? And what is your opinion about a
woman earning more than men? And silly questions, right, But
I think you have to ask them because you know,
Dahl like you just never know what they say. He
was giving very sensible answers. He was saying, if a
woman earns more than the husband, she's like, wow, what
(40:45):
a blessing.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
I was like, okay, here's a good sense of humor
as well.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
But by the end of that trip I didn't need
to ask him any question at all. I knew he
was the one. I felt it, and I was like, yeah,
I am happier with this guy. And this is what
I tell to people about marriage, that you don't have
to get married, you can still think about it. I
don't tell anybody you you know you should or you shouldn't.
(41:11):
I don't have any opinion. I think everybody should do
their research on it. But whoever you choose to be with,
your life should be happier than before.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
You you're writing your book that well, it's part of
this line of questioning, right, making sure that you talk
to that gender dynamics and power and whatnot. You reveal
that you don't want kids, by the way, I want
to be careful I say this correctly. So is it
that you don't want kids or you don't want kids
right now? And you're not sure? I don't want no.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
It's like, I know we don't want to create any conversiy,
but but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
It's like if somebody asked me, I'm like, what kids?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
What are you talking about, Like that's it changes everything, right,
And I love kids like you know, and kids love
me too, Like I have the best time like with kids,
but it's just like having your own kid. Yes, that
changes your life completely, and it's it's just I'm like.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You know, when the time comes, I don't know. I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I for what it's worth. I found it so refreshing
to hear you say, at least you're writing your book.
You told him I don't want kids at least right now,
I don't want kids.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Yeah, he needs to know.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yes, he needed to know that, and he needed to
be okay with that.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yes, Like if that ever happens, he should know that
that is one reality exactly, and that if he's not
comfortable with it, he should talk to me now, because
I don't want to face any pressure later on.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
What does it feel like to rebel against some of
these very ingrained norms. So, speaking from personal experience, I
don't have kids, but I was absolutely raised to feel like,
from just cultural influences, that my self worth is contingent
upon creating children, Like that was a fundamental part of
my identity. And so I'm curious to know whether there's
(42:58):
something empowering about just coming forth and saying no, I
am questioning these norms and I am asking myself whether
they're right for me.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
For me, it's always been about taking your time to
think through it and making that decision when you feel comfortable,
when you are ready for it. So about marriage, I
took my time, I took a long time. I made
us or wait, and I said, if you truly love me,
you will wait for me. So yeah, And I think
(43:30):
in terms of like decisions in the future, when the
moment is right, we will know.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
But I just don't want to think about it right now.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
When you think back to the version of you in
high school who had lost herself, and then the version
of you who is discovering herself in college, and the
version of you now that's discovering yourself and the public
image of Malala and the expectations the world has for you,
what is your guide as you move forward and have
(44:01):
to make decisions that either prioritize yourself, prioritize others or expectations,
oritize your advocacy work. Because while almost no one will
face the exact pressures you face, everyone has some version
of this tension in their life, right, they all will
face some version of these trade offs. So how do
(44:23):
you think about that?
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Wow, I think there's a lot to unfold and a
lot to share. I can share a few things from
my personal experiences. I think the first one is you
have to be true to yourself. It is so hard
to maintain and continue through your life if you're not
true to yourself. So like, listen to your heart, listen
(44:47):
to your feelings. They're telling you something, because when you don't,
you don't realize and all of a sudden, it's all
over you and it can break you down. So I'm like,
just make sure like you are taking care of yourself.
I still remember, like I just thought sleep wasn't for me,
(45:09):
thinking water and no, I don't have time for this.
It wasn't eating well, and somehow I thought that, you know,
my work means just work only like nothing that is
outside work. But I realized that I was actually not
doing well in my work when I was not taking
care of myself. And it was also connected with mental
(45:29):
health as well. So you know, started eating better. I
drink a lot more water, you know, we have water here,
and I go for a run, I walk I try
different sports because these things just helped me unwind and
relax a bit, and it just I think it's a
(45:51):
good way to like make sure that you're looking after yourself.
And then sometimes I just remember what my therapist told me,
like if you're having that moment when it's too overwhelming
and you have that anxiety, just put your hand on
your heart and taking a deep breath seven seconds inhale,
eleven seconds exhale, and.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Take your time.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
So I don't know what's ahead. I'm doing a lot
of things that I'm excited about. My focuses on things
through which we can empower girls. We can give them
the right to education, we can create more opportunities for them.
I'm really passionate about women's sports, so that's a project
my husband and I are working together on. I love
bringing women's stories to screens and just making sure that
(46:39):
women and girls are not just talked about, but they
have the real power, that they have platforms, they have tools,
they have resources, Like that's when the real change happens.
So we're investing in their long term through education, through sports,
and you know, we're creating opportunities for them.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
That is my vision.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
So yeah, like in this book I talk about how
I want to see a better world for girls. I
know there have been many setbacks as well, including in
Afghanistan where gulls are banned from education. Even recently, the
Taliban said that they're gonna ban internet, so that is
limiting the alternative education programs that we are supporting through
(47:18):
Malala Fund. These issues affect me like they affect me emotionally.
I know I want to sound like a brave girl,
but you know, when the Taliban took over, I was
receiving my last surgery for my facial symmetry, and when
I was giving a speech about advocating for Afghan women
in South Africa at the Nesser Mandela Lecture, and I
(47:39):
was talking about how what's happening there should be recognized
as a gender apartheid and the Taliban should be held accountable.
We need more pressure. I had a panic attack in
a hotel when like everything, all events, everything was done,
and I was like, I was not scared on the stage,
everything was fine in the interviews, but in the middle
of the night, I can't breathe. My body is like shaking,
(48:05):
and I don't know if I'm gonna be alive or not.
Am I gonna like what is happening? My husband was
there for me the whole night and he supported me.
But it's just a reminder that in the end, like
we're humans, we're not that strong all the time. It
also made me reflect on what true bravery means, and
(48:28):
bravery truly is when you stand up despite.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
The hardest moments you face.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
True bravery is when you get up when you feel
like you will never be able to stand. True bravery
is when you overcome all of these challenges and you're
and you still continue and.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Do the work. Yeah. So for me was you know, yeah,
I had a panic attack.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
But I will move on, I'll ask for help, I'll
go see my therapist again, and I will continue advocating
for Afghan women and girls. I feel truly brave when
I don't give up, when I don't let myself break down.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Your memoir, it seems like an effort for you to
reclaim your story, right to say I know who the
world thinks I am, that this is actually who I am. Right,
here's who I actually am. What do you hope people
understand about you after reading this book that they perhaps
never appreciated before?
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Oh, I think people find out that I'm a funny person.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
You are very funny and very mischievous.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Yes, and that you know that was me, That was
the actual Malala when I was a kid. But I
am reclaiming that part of me. I haven't figured it
all out, but that is the reality, you know, Like
we all find our way, and this is my hope
for everybody else that we all realize that we will
find a way through it. And this process I was
(49:58):
like reconnecting to every part of me and I'm just
so happy with how it has all come together. I
cannot wait for people to read it. I want them
to know me beyond you know, the the fifteen year old.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Malala who was defined by the world.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
But this is the first time that I am reintroducing
myself and redefining my story.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Hey, thanks so much for listening. Just a reminder that
we're trying something new here on the Slight Change team.
We're now releasing full video versions of some of our episodes,
including this one. You can watch my conversation with Malala
on YouTube or at pushkin dot fm slash slight Change.
That's Pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. I'd love to
(51:02):
know what you think of these videos and if you'd
like to see more. You can reach out to me
on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker or send an email
to Slight Change at pushkin dot fm. And don't forget
to pre order my new book, The Other Side of Change.
You can find it at Changewithmaya dot com slash book
and join me next time when I talk to therapists.
(51:23):
Meg Josephson, author of the book, Are you mad at me?
About how we become people pleasers? How it hurts our
mental health and what we can do about it.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
If you're upset with me, I can't feel okay until
we're good again, Like I need to know that you're
not upset with me before I can breathe again, because
it's just so all consuming and it leads us to
feeling like I don't know who I am, I don't
know what my preferences are, I don't know what my
interests are because we've been trained to be hyper attuned
(51:53):
to what everyone else wants and thinks and feels and needs.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See
you again. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written
and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and
our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
(52:21):
theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A
Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker.
See you next week
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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