February 24, 2025 • 34 mins
It’s February – AKA the month when, research shows, we start slipping on our New Year’s resolutions. And so, I’m re-sharing one of my favorite science episodes to help us all get back on track. Behavioral scientist Katy Milkman is an expert on how we can bridge the important gap between who we are right now and who we want to be. She shares a set of concrete, evidence-based strategies - like the fresh start effect and temptation bundling - that can help you reach your goals and become the best version of yourself.
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Learn more about the science of motivation with Ayelet Fishbach here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin Hey, Slight Changers. Before we start today's episode, I
have an exciting announcement to make. I'm starting a newsletter.
I'm really looking forward to having another place to connect
with you all. I'll be sharing personal updates, links to
what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new science about change,
(00:38):
and my top takeaways, and some behind the scenes from
my conversations on the show. The newsletter is totally free,
and I'd love it if you could sign up. You
can find the link in our show notes. Okay, so
today I want to reshare one of my favorite science
episodes with you. It features a dear friend of mine
who also happens to be a rock star behavioral scientist.
(01:02):
Katie Milkman is an expert on behavior change and how
we can bridge that important gap between who we are
right now now and who we want to be. Since
learning about Katie's research, I've been so much more successful
at reaching my goals, both big and small and fun.
Fact which will make more sense after you listen to
(01:22):
this convo. I've watched far more TV in the process,
since many of us are just starting to fall off
the wagon when it comes to our New Year's resolutions.
I'm hoping this episode can serve as a refresher course
for you. Katie shares a set of concrete, easy to
implement strategies that can help you reach your goals and
(01:42):
become the best version of yourself. I really hope you
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
My research group has studied this phenomenon where at the
beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life,
you are more motivated and likely to make a change.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
That's doctor Katie miltonan author of the book had to.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Change moments when you leave college and your shift identity
is and take on a new role, or when you
become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings
and chapter breaks in our lives, and they free us
from the baggage that we had before. A lot of
people who do make big change are looking at moments
(02:33):
that feel like breaking points and doing it.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University
of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got
to work together on some projects when I was in
the Obama White House, and she happens to be an
expert on change. As you know, this show is all
about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're
talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes.
(02:59):
What Katie's research has taught me over the years is
that small tweaks to our mindset and daily behaviors can
actually inspire big change within ourselves personally, been using insights
from Katie's research in my own life for a while now.
In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into
the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave
you at some valuable tips to help you approach change
(03:22):
differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shunker and this
is a slight change of plans. Well, Katie, I was
(03:49):
curious to know how you got into the topic of change.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Honestly, I was in love with behavioral science, but it
took me a little while to figure out that I
wanted to focus on change. And what happened is I
went to a seminar over at the med school and
there's a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about
behavioral science and medicine. How can we help patients make
better decisions? How can we improve the decisions of doctors
as well? And I was in this seminar and a
(04:15):
graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but
this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a
breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes,
from you know, accidents to environment to daily decisions, and
forty percent of premature deaths turn out to be the
(04:36):
result of decisions that we can change on a daily
basis about things like whether or not we drink or smoke,
what we eat, whether or not we're physically active, we
buckle our seat belts. Those kinds of decisions accumulate more
than I could have ever imagined. I had just no
idea of the magnitude. And when I saw that and realized,
you know, the tools of behavioral science could be applied
(04:58):
to improve health outcomes and health decisions, I could have
this enormous impact. And then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well,
if it matters that much with health, it's sort of
obvious that emulate in areas like savings and education similarly,
even if I've never seen an exact breakdown of that sort.
So that really just got me excited about the potential
(05:19):
to use this thing that I found so interesting, so
exciting and fun to actually have an impact. So that
was That was it for me. I'm really curious about
how your journey changed, because you've had many career shifts,
but you certainly went from you know, a more laboratory
based focus too, you know, jumping into the White House
(05:39):
to tackle change head on from a policy perspective.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
How did you shift?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
It's interesting because in my mind, my big shift in
life was from the violin to cognitive science. But I'm
just remembering, like, oh wait, I also had this other
really big shift.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
That big changes and changing person to host.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I think this is true across science too, but certainly
when we were working in the government, the stakes feel
so high you just can't screw up because these are
real people's and they can be affected by the work
you're doing. And yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we
actually worked together on some projects. Actually one of them
used an insight from your book, and it was the
fresh Start effect. And I'm curious if you can share
(06:21):
what the fresh Start effect is. It was very exciting
at the time to have hot off the presses research
coming out of your lab actually applied to a problem
that we were trying to solve in the government.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So my research group has studied this phenomenon where at
the beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life,
you are more motivated and likely to make a change.
And we've often studied small changes in this context, like
you go to the gym more, or you search on
Google for the term diet more frequently, or you're more
likely to set a goal on a goal setting website.
(06:54):
But I also think you know where the interest in
this topic came from was the realization that a lot
of people who do make big change are looking at
moments that feel like breaking points and doing doing it.
And so I tell stories about bigger changes in my book,
moments when you leave college and you shift identity is
(07:17):
and take on a new role, or when you become
a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings and
chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're freeing
in a way.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They free us from the baggage that we had before.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
But they can also be freeing psychologically because we feel
like you're a new person.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
You can take on a new identity.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Whatever wasn't working before, whatever ambition you failed to have before,
you could shed that and say okay, now I can
do it. So anyway, I do think we could study
big change. And I actually think some of the research
we've done around small change is inspired by a recognition
that these might also be the triggers for big change.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Was there a particular moment in your life where you
felt the fresh start effect play out, where it really
felt like a new beginning and there was a certain
set of habits or behavior changes that you witnessed.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh my gosh, I mean, you know, I do mesearch
so totally, meaning like a lot of my research.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Is motivated by like, oh wow, that's weird.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I wonder if other people, and then I like asked
my friends, Oh yes, me too, And then I realized, okay,
like this might be this might be something we're setting.
I will say one example that I love is that
I realized I wanted to write this book for a
long time. Finally what happened that triggered it? When I
actually began, my son was three years old. We decided
(08:40):
we were going to move out of our apartment into
a house. We bought the house, we signed the papers,
and that day I said, you know what, I'm ready,
We're moving to a new house.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
It's a fresh start.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
This is the moment, and the project started from there,
So that was a big one for me.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Interesting. One of the anecdots around the fresh Start that
I love the most is Obama decided that he would
stop smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed,
and I was like, wait, a next level the fresh
Start effect, Like he truly chose a once in a
lifetime experience to anchor his commitment on.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And it was like aligned on, you know, it was
aligned on like a health focus.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yes, of course, of course Obama went ups all of
us and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh.
But I do love that, like there's no other future,
one of those where he can be like, oh maybe
I can cave a little now, because they'll be this.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Other right the other time I pass health the other.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Time I pass healthcare as president.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I love that anecdote. I don't think I knew that. Actually,
that's amazing. Have you used the fresh Start effect, maya
or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that a
fresh art shifted.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I swear, I swear to God every Sunday I'm committing
to eating healthily. It's just that there's too many damn Sundays,
and so I always feel like I've gotten next to
give it a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I
think it's it's hard for so many of us to
keep our resolutions. And in reading your book, it did
make me think, Okay, choose really remarkable milestones for pivoting,
(10:13):
like big moves like when I moved from DC to California,
getting married, big events like that, because I do think
you feel like your identity is changing a bit, and
any behaviors at a company identity shifts might be more sticky,
or at least they have than in my experience.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And you get the benefit not only of the sort
of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a
new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is
so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines
and giving you that real blank slate to build upon
and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to
the burrito shop but very day for.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Lunch, or you know, whatever your bad habit is that
you want to kick exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I think one of my favorite insights from the book,
and it's and it'said I've been using in my own
life since I read your research years ago, is around
temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what that is?
And then I'd love to let you know how I've
been using it.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, yes, I hear about your temptation bundling, that this
is gonna be fun. So temptation bundling is a solution
I came up with because I had two problems.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Taking you back to grad school again.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I was taking all these hard engineering classes and I
was stressed out, and I'd come home after a long
day of classes and all I wanted to do was
just like indulge in entertainment, right like turn on Netflix
and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So I just
wanted I wanted to dive into that and escape my reality,
and I didn't want to do my problem sets. On
(11:39):
the flip side, I also knew I should really be
getting exercise. I was an athlete in college, but again,
when I came home from a long day, I didn't
want to put on sweats and go to the gym.
So these two problems, like I couldn't get myself to
do my homework because I was procrastinating indulging in all
this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise and
all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute,
(12:00):
what if I solved them all at once? What if
I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love
so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to
the gym to find out what happens next in my
latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at
home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures
my attention. I'd just focus on my problem sets. And
I started doing it. Was just like magic. I worked
(12:23):
out every day. Time flew while I was at the
gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or Alex Cross.
And when I got home, I was ready to work
because I'd already had my indulgence and I was unastressed out.
And I also realized like I could use them not
only to help me exercise, but in lots of places,
like if you just tie something tempting to a chore,
you can magically turn it into something you look forward
(12:43):
to and do less of that indulgent thing and feel
les guilty about it, Like you know, if only you
get a glass of wine while you're making a home
cooked meal, or listen to your favorite podcast while you're
doing chores.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
For all you listeners who are doing laundry right now,
Katie and I are carrying you on. Go for it.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yes, your temptation bundling. You didn't know there was a
name for.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It, Yes, exactly. Okay. So one of my favorite things
in life is discovering a new pop song that I love.
And what makes me really sad is that I very quickly,
like it loses the spark after a certain number of listens,
like you just know you only have fifteen amazing listens
of the song and before it kind of becomes old hat. Right, So,
(13:26):
as soon as I discovered an amazing song, I will
only allow myself to listen to it while I'm working
out from that point on, And like, I'm a really
non fun wife because my husband sometimes and I will
discover the song together and we'll be cooking in the evening,
We'll be having fun. He's like, hey, let's play that
new album by Casey must Graves, who's one of my
favorite artists, And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you
(13:46):
don't understand that's only like a treadmill elliptical song. Because
I just feel like I have to protect it and
save it. But it certainly makes the workout a lot
more tolerable and a little bit more exciting.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So greaty, I love pop music too, and I feel
like we should trade some song recommendations later so we
can each share no more adordance.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
It's now very seriously tied to my exercise between The
one thing that can happen is when you temptation bundle.
Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic extrinsic motivation balance
gets thrown off kilter a bit. So it's like, initially
I'm just using all of my internal will to go exercise,
but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, which is a song.
(14:27):
So on the rare occasion where like my headphones are
out of battery, or like my phone's Wi Fi is
not working, I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I
can do this anymore.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Just have to make sure your headphones are always working
and your your iPhone is always charged or whatever.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yes, I'm wondering whether for temptation bundling. You see this
plate on the wild in places that where behavior change
feels a little bit more serious.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That's interesting I'm trying to think if I have a
great answer for you. There's a study I love of
teachers who are trying to figure out how to motivate
their students to do more math problems, which kids apparently
say they like doing math about as myne which is
they like eating broccoli. So that tells you something about
how delightful it is. And math is so important to everything,
(15:16):
as we both know. So these two researchers suggested, basically
a temptation bundle. What if the kids could, you know,
listen to music, have snacks markers that they like using,
and they did that all on the day when they're
doing their math worksheets, but not at other times. And
the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like, I
(15:38):
think they'll focus left because some'll be distracted. And it
turned out that kids persisted longer on math when they
were randomly assigned to groups that had these i'll say
temptations linked with them. It's not, you know, it's not
changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative. But
I think that that's an example of like some of
the big goals we have in life, whether it's getting
(15:59):
through your math assignments, or finishing a dissertation, If you
can find a way to make it more enjoyable, that
really matters.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I love the math example, I think for two reasons.
I mean, the is I just let any time research
findings violate our expectations. You know, when the teachers are like, Ooh,
I'm not really sure that this is a good idea.
But then you're able to generate empirical data that runs
counter to that hypothesis. That's wonderful because it's moving the
field forward. And I think the other reason I love
(16:27):
it is that, you know, success begets success, passion begets passion.
It's kind of one of those things where if you
get a kid just through that initial period they're just
learning the basics, getting over those initial super hard humps,
then they might actually realize they really like this thing
and then just becomes easier and easier and easier to
do every problem from that point forward. So I do
(16:49):
feel like it can have massive long term effects.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And if they have positive associations with math, I mean,
what more could we hope for.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
We'll be right back with a slight change of plans.
In this episode, Doctor Katie Milkin and I are talking
about the science of change and the different techniques we
can use to spur on that change. One technique is
(17:23):
called a commitment device, which locks you into a plan
to reach your long term goals. The key feature of
a commitment device is that if you don't follow through
with your plan, there's some sort of penalty in place.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I remember, I'm curious if you actually remember the experience
of first learning about them, because for me, it was
like mind blowing how powerful they were, and actually mind
blowing how few people use them given how powerful they are.
But the study that I love that really I think
illustrates nicely how much they can help us is a
study where they partnered with a bank in the Philippines
(17:56):
that saw low savings rates and wanted to figure out
if there was a way to help people save more
so they'd have the ability to have better health, have
better life outcomes. Where they came up with this idea
that one of the reasons people were having trouble acumulating
savings balances is they were constantly tempted to dip in.
They were like they opened the bank account and they
put some money aside, but then somebody's birthday or there's
(18:17):
a holiday, and so the money came right back out
and it never accumulated. And that people said, you know,
actually I'd kind of like it if I.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Couldn't get the money out.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I like kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses.
So they developed this new kind of account. It was
a commitment savings account. So you put money in and
you are not allowed to take it out until a
predetermined date you choose, or a savings goal you choose.
They offered this kind of account to you know, a
random subset of customers alongside the usual account with the
same interest rate, but free in and out access. They
(18:49):
saved eighty percent more year over year than than the
control I mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you studied
savings like that that's life changing.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
So I love that story.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
That's a hard commitment because when you put your money in,
there is another you know, there's a third party the
bank that is saying like, you cannot have it. It
is not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you
from So there's like a hard restriction on access to something.
And a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into
that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if
you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in
(19:23):
the way you intend to. So that's a hard one
because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the
world too, like you know, you tell your partner, your
mom you're gonna do something, and then they and ask
them to give you a hard time if you don't.
That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a
little you're gonna get ribbed a little bit, or you're
(19:43):
accountable to someone, but you can back out.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah. I also remember learning about commitment devices for the
first time. Gosh, we sound like such nerds. Do you are, Katie?
Do you remember where you were? Do you remember the
day you learned about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly
where I was.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
I mean I'm like, yeah, I was in a classroom.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
My head exploded.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Where were you?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I know, I was in my kitchen with my roommates
and I was reading this paper. I was like, oh,
this is so exciting. The researchers ran a study in
which they had people outline where, when, and how they
were planning to get vaccinated.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So that was my study.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Oh my gosh, this is so fun. The flu shot
study I'm talking about is your study. See that's awesome. Okay,
well the seminal work by doctor Milkman. So in your
study you ask people, where, when, and how you're going
to go get vaccinated, right, And I think what was
so stunning to me is like, you see you write
down this forum. You know, I'm May at nine am,
after I drop off my husband at work and I
(20:38):
go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go to
the CBS and get my flu vaccine. And what was
astonishing to me is that it significantly increased the vaccination
rate despite the fact that you weren't accountable to anyone,
right in this intervention. You were not required to send
the letter back to anyone, no one was on your case.
You were literally just planning it out for yourself. And
(21:00):
that was enough to significantly drive the numbers up, which
to me again was such an extraordinary, light lift, low
cost intervention thatotentially save people's lives. And in your book
you talk about the fact that we all have a
fairly maybe not everyone, but many people have a very
high view of themselves, so they feel like they might
(21:21):
not benefit that much from commitment devices, and you know,
we can be very over optimistic about our ability to
use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm wondering if you
have any thoughts or advice for helping people overcome this
overconfidence so that they can achieve their goals.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Optimism is a really good thing, but in this particular case,
it plays tricks on us that are problematic because we
don't in general persevere as much as we think we will,
and we do tend to be present biased, right, so
we dramatically overweight whatever value will get from something instantaneously
(22:02):
rather than the long term value. So you know, I
can buy a present right now for myself, or I
can put money in savings take the present, even if
that's not really good for me in the long run.
And if we don't appreciate that this disconnect keeps happening,
and we think we'll just barrel through and do what's
on in our long term best interest, we don't choose
to use commitment devices because we don't recognize this challenge.
(22:23):
So I think it's a really tough nut to crack.
And for me, the big thing was sort of seeing
the data and seeing here's the evidence if you see
it with your own eyes and you see how powerful
these tools are and how often we do stumble even
though we think we'll be able to push through. Maybe
that evidence will be enough to get people to recognize
this can be a really potent approach.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
You have lots of colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real
people who are facing these challenges and using these behavioral
tricks of the trade. And I do feel like in
many ways you're wielding the power of social norms by saying, hey,
at least here's a collection of people who are willing
to acknowledge that they may be a bit over confident
about their ability to use, for example, willpower to achieve
(23:08):
their goal, and they're open to using some of these strategies.
So maybe there could be a positive norm effect that
comes from people reading your book Fingers Crossed.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I like that the modeling, And you know, an anytime
I can use insights about social norms to make the
world a better place, I'm it's a win.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
What do you see in the future of change research?
In your ideal future?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
When I think about what I'm most intrigued by and
feel like we've only scratched the surface of In studying change,
there's two big things. One is durability. What are the
kinds of tools that really propel change in an incredibly
durable way?
Speaker 3 (23:51):
You know?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I think a key takeaway for me has been, like,
never stop doing the thing that's working right. Don't like
assume you can temptation bundle for a month, then you've
built an exercise habit and magically, maya you will like
never need to listen to a pop song again, and
you'll always want to go to the gym. So you
got to keep doing that. So we know that, But
are there any magic that where if you sort of
can put them on autopilot or do them for a
(24:13):
little while and they propel you forward. I wonder I
would love to uncover some if they exist. And then
the other thing I'm really intrigued by is setbacks and
how to sort of how to prepare for them and
recover from them as effectively as possible. I think some
of the most interesting ideas I have encountered around change
(24:36):
work because they have some they help us with those setbacks.
I think fresh starts sort of help us with the setbacks.
They're like, Okay, wipe the slate clean, I get to
get up and go again. There's wonderful work by my
colleague Mursa Sharif on emergency reserves where she's figured out
these clever ways that you set a tough goal but
give yourself a couple get out of jeil free cards
(24:56):
if you can't achieve it every day of the week,
and found that that's way better than giving yourself sort
of like a slightly easier goal because you're going for
the stretch, but you're giving yourself a little leeway. I
think that also is like about getting back up. So
I think there's some really fundamental, interesting things to be
explored around creating structures for success after a setback, and
(25:19):
I look forward to studying that too.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Katie, one of the things that I feel most intimidated
by is this challenge of how it is we can
change people's minds. It feels like one of those really
elusive things and there's no one size fits all approach.
And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on
the most effective strategies you've seen, either in research or
(25:43):
just in your personal life around how to change people's minds.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Yeah, it's such an interesting question.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
It's obviously really hard, just like behavior change is hard,
changing opinions is really hard.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I think.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Actually there's some common themes though, and one common theme
is exploration. So when we talked about the fresh start
effect and how these disruptions in our lives can lead
us to sort of be in a new environment and
you can therefore explore and you don't have old bad
habits necessarily already built to fall back on, there's also
(26:19):
an opportunity to do that in terms of mindset shift.
So I think when we have a set of beliefs
and expectations, we're less likely to explore and read and
talk to people outside of our perspective. But if there's
a moment that creates or forces some experimentation and exploration,
(26:40):
that can be incredibly powerful.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah. I like that too, because it's not so pointed, right,
It's not like I need you to change your opinion
about this thing. It's let me just try to get
you to expose yourself to stuff. Period. I'm wondering if
you have any concrete ideas on how we can motivate
people to engage in that exploration, because exploration is very uncomfortable, right, Like,
we all have deeply entrenched views within us. Purposely going
(27:07):
on a mission to challenge those views is not exactly
the most fun adventure. It's just it's filled with cognitive dissonance.
It just feels uncomfortable. And so how do we incentivize
people to go on those little missions?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You know?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I have to think that a big part of it
is probably through social norms, which is such a powerful tool.
For instance, if you end up with a roommate who's
a good student, your grades are likely to be a
bit higher.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
So you know, if we point out.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Others like you who have changed their mind, it gives
you license to say, like, oh, maybe, like it's reasonable
for someone like meeting to keep exploring and keep thinking
about different ideas. I think that might be a way
that we can introduce this exploration concept and not have
it be to threatening and have it be appealing.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's reminding me.
There's this one interview I did with a woman named
Megan Phelps Roper, and she ends up leaving this hate
group cult church, and I was asking her, are you
using your platform today to convince other people? Because there's
so much research showing the power of a convert. So
when you hold the views that this person in front
(28:19):
of you previously held, and then you watch them walk
you through their journey of changing their minds, it can
open your mind in a really unique way because you
feel attached to their former value system. Right. You know
that you started in the same place, but they ended
up in a different place. I know the Department of
Homeland Security uses this inside all the time by recruiting
former extremists to try to convert potential extremists away from
(28:42):
that craft.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's so interesting too, because I'm thinking about like the original,
like nineteen fifty five Solomon ash experiments where he'd bring
all these people into a room and he'd show them
two cards. One had one line on it and one
had three and you had to figure out which of
those three lines was the same like as the one line.
And it seems like it was really simple task and
it was fairly straightforward. People didn't get it wrong except
(29:03):
when he introduced social pressure. So he'd bring a group
in and have seven of them consistantly give the same
wrong answer before you give your answer, and people started
messing up and they're like totally confused, but was really interesting.
You know, that's the famous finding When everybody else says
the wrong answer, you go along with it a lot,
and you actually like believe that you must be seeing things.
(29:26):
One of my favorite sub findings that I think gets
less play is that if there's just one truthful person
in that set, so six people out of the seven
say the wrong answer, but one says the right answer,
you're much more likely to follow your intuition and say
what you really.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Think is right.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
So anyway, I think that that's interesting in relation to
the sort of power of the one person who broke free.
Just seeing one person who agrees with your or shows
you a slightly different worldview can make it possible for
you to feel comfortable going against the green.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah. I love that. So I really want to get
your thoughts on this. We are living in a world
right now where we're almost in like this so help
moment right where everybody's trying to optimize they're lives, and
I do wonder where the limits are of that, And
at one point you have to say, you know what,
like I just can't spend my whole life trying to optimize.
(30:23):
I just need to kind of be and live and exist.
And the reason I asked that is it's alarming to me.
I'll hear certain people say, oh, yeah, no, it's super
important to be bored because actually boredom makes you more productive.
So like, even boredom is now an instrumental thing. We're
becoming more productive. Like, oh yeah, make sure you stare
out the window for at least five minutes a day,
because that'll help you be more productive. I feel like
(30:44):
sometimes we don't just do things because we just value
those things. We always do things because they have some
instrumental value in terms of achieving something else.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And that's also super interesting, maya, because those are like
little hacks, right, like, oh, you know, stare out the
window for five minutes. And if we like fill our
life with all those little hacks, we actually don't make
space for the big momentous change.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
That's so interesting. Yeah, and you're saying that because it's like, oh,
it's just taking up all your brain airwaves that you're
not Yeah, you just don't have the time to think macro.
It's a great point. I think I'll wrap by asking
what the biggest change you feel you've experienced in your life.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Is Oh my gosh, there's so many, which is part
of what makes life so fun. I think, honestly, one
of the biggest most important changes for me went from
being focused on figuring out how to.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Do my own.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Work or live my own life to taking on the
role of coaching and helping other people. All of those
relationships sort of reinforce the same change, which is how
meaningful it is to be looking out for someone else
besides yourself, and how much you can learn about everything
when you are coaching and helping someone else, And that
(32:08):
helped me actually be better at everything. So I would
say that's the biggest shift I've had in my life,
and I hope everyone will get that opportunity to have
that kind of a shift.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Wow, what a positive change, What a positive bea to
end on. I know how busy you are, and I
know how much you optimize your life in order to
make room for these kinds of conversations. So thank you
so much. It was really fun to chat with you.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
This was so fun. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
A slight change of Plans is created an executive produce
by me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,
including our producer MOLA Board, Associate producers David Jaw and
Julia Goodman, Executive producers Mei Lavelle and Justin Lange, Senior
editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben
(33:05):
Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis gar who
wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange
the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course
a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow
a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya
Schunker anytime they violate our Sorry for frog in my throat.
(33:37):
Actually I'm like, even though I'm a vegetarian, I occasionally
get a frog. You're not chewing right, so it's not
chewing fitting it right back out? Hey, thanks so much
for listening. If you like this episode, you might like
our conversation with iel at Fischbach, who talks about the
science of motivation. We've included a link to the episode
(34:00):
in our show notes. We've also included a link to
my newsletter, which you can sign up for now and
which we'll launch very soon. I really appreciate it. Thanks
much
Pushkin Hey, Slight Changers. Before we start today's episode, I
have an exciting announcement to make. I'm starting a newsletter.
I'm really looking forward to having another place to connect
with you all. I'll be sharing personal updates, links to
what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new science about change,
(00:38):
and my top takeaways, and some behind the scenes from
my conversations on the show. The newsletter is totally free,
and I'd love it if you could sign up. You
can find the link in our show notes. Okay, so
today I want to reshare one of my favorite science
episodes with you. It features a dear friend of mine
who also happens to be a rock star behavioral scientist.
(01:02):
Katie Milkman is an expert on behavior change and how
we can bridge that important gap between who we are
right now now and who we want to be. Since
learning about Katie's research, I've been so much more successful
at reaching my goals, both big and small and fun.
Fact which will make more sense after you listen to
(01:22):
this convo. I've watched far more TV in the process,
since many of us are just starting to fall off
the wagon when it comes to our New Year's resolutions.
I'm hoping this episode can serve as a refresher course
for you. Katie shares a set of concrete, easy to
implement strategies that can help you reach your goals and
(01:42):
become the best version of yourself. I really hope you
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
My research group has studied this phenomenon where at the
beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life,
you are more motivated and likely to make a change.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
That's doctor Katie miltonan author of the book had to.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Change moments when you leave college and your shift identity
is and take on a new role, or when you
become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings
and chapter breaks in our lives, and they free us
from the baggage that we had before. A lot of
people who do make big change are looking at moments
(02:33):
that feel like breaking points and doing it.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University
of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got
to work together on some projects when I was in
the Obama White House, and she happens to be an
expert on change. As you know, this show is all
about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're
talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes.
(02:59):
What Katie's research has taught me over the years is
that small tweaks to our mindset and daily behaviors can
actually inspire big change within ourselves personally, been using insights
from Katie's research in my own life for a while now.
In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into
the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave
you at some valuable tips to help you approach change
(03:22):
differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shunker and this
is a slight change of plans. Well, Katie, I was
(03:49):
curious to know how you got into the topic of change.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Honestly, I was in love with behavioral science, but it
took me a little while to figure out that I
wanted to focus on change. And what happened is I
went to a seminar over at the med school and
there's a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about
behavioral science and medicine. How can we help patients make
better decisions? How can we improve the decisions of doctors
as well? And I was in this seminar and a
(04:15):
graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but
this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a
breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes,
from you know, accidents to environment to daily decisions, and
forty percent of premature deaths turn out to be the
(04:36):
result of decisions that we can change on a daily
basis about things like whether or not we drink or smoke,
what we eat, whether or not we're physically active, we
buckle our seat belts. Those kinds of decisions accumulate more
than I could have ever imagined. I had just no
idea of the magnitude. And when I saw that and realized,
you know, the tools of behavioral science could be applied
(04:58):
to improve health outcomes and health decisions, I could have
this enormous impact. And then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well,
if it matters that much with health, it's sort of
obvious that emulate in areas like savings and education similarly,
even if I've never seen an exact breakdown of that sort.
So that really just got me excited about the potential
(05:19):
to use this thing that I found so interesting, so
exciting and fun to actually have an impact. So that
was That was it for me. I'm really curious about
how your journey changed, because you've had many career shifts,
but you certainly went from you know, a more laboratory
based focus too, you know, jumping into the White House
(05:39):
to tackle change head on from a policy perspective.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
How did you shift?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
It's interesting because in my mind, my big shift in
life was from the violin to cognitive science. But I'm
just remembering, like, oh wait, I also had this other
really big shift.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
That big changes and changing person to host.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I think this is true across science too, but certainly
when we were working in the government, the stakes feel
so high you just can't screw up because these are
real people's and they can be affected by the work
you're doing. And yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we
actually worked together on some projects. Actually one of them
used an insight from your book, and it was the
fresh Start effect. And I'm curious if you can share
(06:21):
what the fresh Start effect is. It was very exciting
at the time to have hot off the presses research
coming out of your lab actually applied to a problem
that we were trying to solve in the government.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So my research group has studied this phenomenon where at
the beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life,
you are more motivated and likely to make a change.
And we've often studied small changes in this context, like
you go to the gym more, or you search on
Google for the term diet more frequently, or you're more
likely to set a goal on a goal setting website.
(06:54):
But I also think you know where the interest in
this topic came from was the realization that a lot
of people who do make big change are looking at
moments that feel like breaking points and doing doing it.
And so I tell stories about bigger changes in my book,
moments when you leave college and you shift identity is
(07:17):
and take on a new role, or when you become
a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings and
chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're freeing
in a way.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They free us from the baggage that we had before.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
But they can also be freeing psychologically because we feel
like you're a new person.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
You can take on a new identity.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Whatever wasn't working before, whatever ambition you failed to have before,
you could shed that and say okay, now I can
do it. So anyway, I do think we could study
big change. And I actually think some of the research
we've done around small change is inspired by a recognition
that these might also be the triggers for big change.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Was there a particular moment in your life where you
felt the fresh start effect play out, where it really
felt like a new beginning and there was a certain
set of habits or behavior changes that you witnessed.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh my gosh, I mean, you know, I do mesearch
so totally, meaning like a lot of my research.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Is motivated by like, oh wow, that's weird.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I wonder if other people, and then I like asked
my friends, Oh yes, me too, And then I realized, okay,
like this might be this might be something we're setting.
I will say one example that I love is that
I realized I wanted to write this book for a
long time. Finally what happened that triggered it? When I
actually began, my son was three years old. We decided
(08:40):
we were going to move out of our apartment into
a house. We bought the house, we signed the papers,
and that day I said, you know what, I'm ready,
We're moving to a new house.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
It's a fresh start.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
This is the moment, and the project started from there,
So that was a big one for me.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Interesting. One of the anecdots around the fresh Start that
I love the most is Obama decided that he would
stop smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed,
and I was like, wait, a next level the fresh
Start effect, Like he truly chose a once in a
lifetime experience to anchor his commitment on.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And it was like aligned on, you know, it was
aligned on like a health focus.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yes, of course, of course Obama went ups all of
us and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh.
But I do love that, like there's no other future,
one of those where he can be like, oh maybe
I can cave a little now, because they'll be this.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Other right the other time I pass health the other.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Time I pass healthcare as president.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I love that anecdote. I don't think I knew that. Actually,
that's amazing. Have you used the fresh Start effect, maya
or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that a
fresh art shifted.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I swear, I swear to God every Sunday I'm committing
to eating healthily. It's just that there's too many damn Sundays,
and so I always feel like I've gotten next to
give it a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I
think it's it's hard for so many of us to
keep our resolutions. And in reading your book, it did
make me think, Okay, choose really remarkable milestones for pivoting,
(10:13):
like big moves like when I moved from DC to California,
getting married, big events like that, because I do think
you feel like your identity is changing a bit, and
any behaviors at a company identity shifts might be more sticky,
or at least they have than in my experience.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And you get the benefit not only of the sort
of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a
new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is
so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines
and giving you that real blank slate to build upon
and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to
the burrito shop but very day for.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Lunch, or you know, whatever your bad habit is that
you want to kick exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I think one of my favorite insights from the book,
and it's and it'said I've been using in my own
life since I read your research years ago, is around
temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what that is?
And then I'd love to let you know how I've
been using it.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, yes, I hear about your temptation bundling, that this
is gonna be fun. So temptation bundling is a solution
I came up with because I had two problems.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Taking you back to grad school again.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I was taking all these hard engineering classes and I
was stressed out, and I'd come home after a long
day of classes and all I wanted to do was
just like indulge in entertainment, right like turn on Netflix
and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So I just
wanted I wanted to dive into that and escape my reality,
and I didn't want to do my problem sets. On
(11:39):
the flip side, I also knew I should really be
getting exercise. I was an athlete in college, but again,
when I came home from a long day, I didn't
want to put on sweats and go to the gym.
So these two problems, like I couldn't get myself to
do my homework because I was procrastinating indulging in all
this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise and
all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute,
(12:00):
what if I solved them all at once? What if
I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love
so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to
the gym to find out what happens next in my
latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at
home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures
my attention. I'd just focus on my problem sets. And
I started doing it. Was just like magic. I worked
(12:23):
out every day. Time flew while I was at the
gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or Alex Cross.
And when I got home, I was ready to work
because I'd already had my indulgence and I was unastressed out.
And I also realized like I could use them not
only to help me exercise, but in lots of places,
like if you just tie something tempting to a chore,
you can magically turn it into something you look forward
(12:43):
to and do less of that indulgent thing and feel
les guilty about it, Like you know, if only you
get a glass of wine while you're making a home
cooked meal, or listen to your favorite podcast while you're
doing chores.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
For all you listeners who are doing laundry right now,
Katie and I are carrying you on. Go for it.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yes, your temptation bundling. You didn't know there was a
name for.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It, Yes, exactly. Okay. So one of my favorite things
in life is discovering a new pop song that I love.
And what makes me really sad is that I very quickly,
like it loses the spark after a certain number of listens,
like you just know you only have fifteen amazing listens
of the song and before it kind of becomes old hat. Right, So,
(13:26):
as soon as I discovered an amazing song, I will
only allow myself to listen to it while I'm working
out from that point on, And like, I'm a really
non fun wife because my husband sometimes and I will
discover the song together and we'll be cooking in the evening,
We'll be having fun. He's like, hey, let's play that
new album by Casey must Graves, who's one of my
favorite artists, And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you
(13:46):
don't understand that's only like a treadmill elliptical song. Because
I just feel like I have to protect it and
save it. But it certainly makes the workout a lot
more tolerable and a little bit more exciting.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So greaty, I love pop music too, and I feel
like we should trade some song recommendations later so we
can each share no more adordance.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
It's now very seriously tied to my exercise between The
one thing that can happen is when you temptation bundle.
Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic extrinsic motivation balance
gets thrown off kilter a bit. So it's like, initially
I'm just using all of my internal will to go exercise,
but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, which is a song.
(14:27):
So on the rare occasion where like my headphones are
out of battery, or like my phone's Wi Fi is
not working, I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I
can do this anymore.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Just have to make sure your headphones are always working
and your your iPhone is always charged or whatever.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yes, I'm wondering whether for temptation bundling. You see this
plate on the wild in places that where behavior change
feels a little bit more serious.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That's interesting I'm trying to think if I have a
great answer for you. There's a study I love of
teachers who are trying to figure out how to motivate
their students to do more math problems, which kids apparently
say they like doing math about as myne which is
they like eating broccoli. So that tells you something about
how delightful it is. And math is so important to everything,
(15:16):
as we both know. So these two researchers suggested, basically
a temptation bundle. What if the kids could, you know,
listen to music, have snacks markers that they like using,
and they did that all on the day when they're
doing their math worksheets, but not at other times. And
the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like, I
(15:38):
think they'll focus left because some'll be distracted. And it
turned out that kids persisted longer on math when they
were randomly assigned to groups that had these i'll say
temptations linked with them. It's not, you know, it's not
changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative. But
I think that that's an example of like some of
the big goals we have in life, whether it's getting
(15:59):
through your math assignments, or finishing a dissertation, If you
can find a way to make it more enjoyable, that
really matters.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I love the math example, I think for two reasons.
I mean, the is I just let any time research
findings violate our expectations. You know, when the teachers are like, Ooh,
I'm not really sure that this is a good idea.
But then you're able to generate empirical data that runs
counter to that hypothesis. That's wonderful because it's moving the
field forward. And I think the other reason I love
(16:27):
it is that, you know, success begets success, passion begets passion.
It's kind of one of those things where if you
get a kid just through that initial period they're just
learning the basics, getting over those initial super hard humps,
then they might actually realize they really like this thing
and then just becomes easier and easier and easier to
do every problem from that point forward. So I do
(16:49):
feel like it can have massive long term effects.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And if they have positive associations with math, I mean,
what more could we hope for.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
We'll be right back with a slight change of plans.
In this episode, Doctor Katie Milkin and I are talking
about the science of change and the different techniques we
can use to spur on that change. One technique is
(17:23):
called a commitment device, which locks you into a plan
to reach your long term goals. The key feature of
a commitment device is that if you don't follow through
with your plan, there's some sort of penalty in place.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I remember, I'm curious if you actually remember the experience
of first learning about them, because for me, it was
like mind blowing how powerful they were, and actually mind
blowing how few people use them given how powerful they are.
But the study that I love that really I think
illustrates nicely how much they can help us is a
study where they partnered with a bank in the Philippines
(17:56):
that saw low savings rates and wanted to figure out
if there was a way to help people save more
so they'd have the ability to have better health, have
better life outcomes. Where they came up with this idea
that one of the reasons people were having trouble acumulating
savings balances is they were constantly tempted to dip in.
They were like they opened the bank account and they
put some money aside, but then somebody's birthday or there's
(18:17):
a holiday, and so the money came right back out
and it never accumulated. And that people said, you know,
actually I'd kind of like it if I.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Couldn't get the money out.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I like kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses.
So they developed this new kind of account. It was
a commitment savings account. So you put money in and
you are not allowed to take it out until a
predetermined date you choose, or a savings goal you choose.
They offered this kind of account to you know, a
random subset of customers alongside the usual account with the
same interest rate, but free in and out access. They
(18:49):
saved eighty percent more year over year than than the
control I mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you studied
savings like that that's life changing.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
So I love that story.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
That's a hard commitment because when you put your money in,
there is another you know, there's a third party the
bank that is saying like, you cannot have it. It
is not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you
from So there's like a hard restriction on access to something.
And a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into
that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if
you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in
(19:23):
the way you intend to. So that's a hard one
because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the
world too, like you know, you tell your partner, your
mom you're gonna do something, and then they and ask
them to give you a hard time if you don't.
That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a
little you're gonna get ribbed a little bit, or you're
(19:43):
accountable to someone, but you can back out.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah. I also remember learning about commitment devices for the
first time. Gosh, we sound like such nerds. Do you are, Katie?
Do you remember where you were? Do you remember the
day you learned about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly
where I was.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
I mean I'm like, yeah, I was in a classroom.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
My head exploded.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Where were you?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I know, I was in my kitchen with my roommates
and I was reading this paper. I was like, oh,
this is so exciting. The researchers ran a study in
which they had people outline where, when, and how they
were planning to get vaccinated.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So that was my study.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Oh my gosh, this is so fun. The flu shot
study I'm talking about is your study. See that's awesome. Okay,
well the seminal work by doctor Milkman. So in your
study you ask people, where, when, and how you're going
to go get vaccinated, right, And I think what was
so stunning to me is like, you see you write
down this forum. You know, I'm May at nine am,
after I drop off my husband at work and I
(20:38):
go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go to
the CBS and get my flu vaccine. And what was
astonishing to me is that it significantly increased the vaccination
rate despite the fact that you weren't accountable to anyone,
right in this intervention. You were not required to send
the letter back to anyone, no one was on your case.
You were literally just planning it out for yourself. And
(21:00):
that was enough to significantly drive the numbers up, which
to me again was such an extraordinary, light lift, low
cost intervention thatotentially save people's lives. And in your book
you talk about the fact that we all have a
fairly maybe not everyone, but many people have a very
high view of themselves, so they feel like they might
(21:21):
not benefit that much from commitment devices, and you know,
we can be very over optimistic about our ability to
use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm wondering if you
have any thoughts or advice for helping people overcome this
overconfidence so that they can achieve their goals.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Optimism is a really good thing, but in this particular case,
it plays tricks on us that are problematic because we
don't in general persevere as much as we think we will,
and we do tend to be present biased, right, so
we dramatically overweight whatever value will get from something instantaneously
(22:02):
rather than the long term value. So you know, I
can buy a present right now for myself, or I
can put money in savings take the present, even if
that's not really good for me in the long run.
And if we don't appreciate that this disconnect keeps happening,
and we think we'll just barrel through and do what's
on in our long term best interest, we don't choose
to use commitment devices because we don't recognize this challenge.
(22:23):
So I think it's a really tough nut to crack.
And for me, the big thing was sort of seeing
the data and seeing here's the evidence if you see
it with your own eyes and you see how powerful
these tools are and how often we do stumble even
though we think we'll be able to push through. Maybe
that evidence will be enough to get people to recognize
this can be a really potent approach.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
You have lots of colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real
people who are facing these challenges and using these behavioral
tricks of the trade. And I do feel like in
many ways you're wielding the power of social norms by saying, hey,
at least here's a collection of people who are willing
to acknowledge that they may be a bit over confident
about their ability to use, for example, willpower to achieve
(23:08):
their goal, and they're open to using some of these strategies.
So maybe there could be a positive norm effect that
comes from people reading your book Fingers Crossed.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I like that the modeling, And you know, an anytime
I can use insights about social norms to make the
world a better place, I'm it's a win.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
What do you see in the future of change research?
In your ideal future?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
When I think about what I'm most intrigued by and
feel like we've only scratched the surface of In studying change,
there's two big things. One is durability. What are the
kinds of tools that really propel change in an incredibly
durable way?
Speaker 3 (23:51):
You know?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I think a key takeaway for me has been, like,
never stop doing the thing that's working right. Don't like
assume you can temptation bundle for a month, then you've
built an exercise habit and magically, maya you will like
never need to listen to a pop song again, and
you'll always want to go to the gym. So you
got to keep doing that. So we know that, But
are there any magic that where if you sort of
can put them on autopilot or do them for a
(24:13):
little while and they propel you forward. I wonder I
would love to uncover some if they exist. And then
the other thing I'm really intrigued by is setbacks and
how to sort of how to prepare for them and
recover from them as effectively as possible. I think some
of the most interesting ideas I have encountered around change
(24:36):
work because they have some they help us with those setbacks.
I think fresh starts sort of help us with the setbacks.
They're like, Okay, wipe the slate clean, I get to
get up and go again. There's wonderful work by my
colleague Mursa Sharif on emergency reserves where she's figured out
these clever ways that you set a tough goal but
give yourself a couple get out of jeil free cards
(24:56):
if you can't achieve it every day of the week,
and found that that's way better than giving yourself sort
of like a slightly easier goal because you're going for
the stretch, but you're giving yourself a little leeway. I
think that also is like about getting back up. So
I think there's some really fundamental, interesting things to be
explored around creating structures for success after a setback, and
(25:19):
I look forward to studying that too.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Katie, one of the things that I feel most intimidated
by is this challenge of how it is we can
change people's minds. It feels like one of those really
elusive things and there's no one size fits all approach.
And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on
the most effective strategies you've seen, either in research or
(25:43):
just in your personal life around how to change people's minds.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Yeah, it's such an interesting question.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
It's obviously really hard, just like behavior change is hard,
changing opinions is really hard.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I think.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Actually there's some common themes though, and one common theme
is exploration. So when we talked about the fresh start
effect and how these disruptions in our lives can lead
us to sort of be in a new environment and
you can therefore explore and you don't have old bad
habits necessarily already built to fall back on, there's also
(26:19):
an opportunity to do that in terms of mindset shift.
So I think when we have a set of beliefs
and expectations, we're less likely to explore and read and
talk to people outside of our perspective. But if there's
a moment that creates or forces some experimentation and exploration,
(26:40):
that can be incredibly powerful.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah. I like that too, because it's not so pointed, right,
It's not like I need you to change your opinion
about this thing. It's let me just try to get
you to expose yourself to stuff. Period. I'm wondering if
you have any concrete ideas on how we can motivate
people to engage in that exploration, because exploration is very uncomfortable, right, Like,
we all have deeply entrenched views within us. Purposely going
(27:07):
on a mission to challenge those views is not exactly
the most fun adventure. It's just it's filled with cognitive dissonance.
It just feels uncomfortable. And so how do we incentivize
people to go on those little missions?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You know?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I have to think that a big part of it
is probably through social norms, which is such a powerful tool.
For instance, if you end up with a roommate who's
a good student, your grades are likely to be a
bit higher.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
So you know, if we point out.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Others like you who have changed their mind, it gives
you license to say, like, oh, maybe, like it's reasonable
for someone like meeting to keep exploring and keep thinking
about different ideas. I think that might be a way
that we can introduce this exploration concept and not have
it be to threatening and have it be appealing.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's reminding me.
There's this one interview I did with a woman named
Megan Phelps Roper, and she ends up leaving this hate
group cult church, and I was asking her, are you
using your platform today to convince other people? Because there's
so much research showing the power of a convert. So
when you hold the views that this person in front
(28:19):
of you previously held, and then you watch them walk
you through their journey of changing their minds, it can
open your mind in a really unique way because you
feel attached to their former value system. Right. You know
that you started in the same place, but they ended
up in a different place. I know the Department of
Homeland Security uses this inside all the time by recruiting
former extremists to try to convert potential extremists away from
(28:42):
that craft.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's so interesting too, because I'm thinking about like the original,
like nineteen fifty five Solomon ash experiments where he'd bring
all these people into a room and he'd show them
two cards. One had one line on it and one
had three and you had to figure out which of
those three lines was the same like as the one line.
And it seems like it was really simple task and
it was fairly straightforward. People didn't get it wrong except
(29:03):
when he introduced social pressure. So he'd bring a group
in and have seven of them consistantly give the same
wrong answer before you give your answer, and people started
messing up and they're like totally confused, but was really interesting.
You know, that's the famous finding When everybody else says
the wrong answer, you go along with it a lot,
and you actually like believe that you must be seeing things.
(29:26):
One of my favorite sub findings that I think gets
less play is that if there's just one truthful person
in that set, so six people out of the seven
say the wrong answer, but one says the right answer,
you're much more likely to follow your intuition and say
what you really.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Think is right.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
So anyway, I think that that's interesting in relation to
the sort of power of the one person who broke free.
Just seeing one person who agrees with your or shows
you a slightly different worldview can make it possible for
you to feel comfortable going against the green.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah. I love that. So I really want to get
your thoughts on this. We are living in a world
right now where we're almost in like this so help
moment right where everybody's trying to optimize they're lives, and
I do wonder where the limits are of that, And
at one point you have to say, you know what,
like I just can't spend my whole life trying to optimize.
(30:23):
I just need to kind of be and live and exist.
And the reason I asked that is it's alarming to me.
I'll hear certain people say, oh, yeah, no, it's super
important to be bored because actually boredom makes you more productive.
So like, even boredom is now an instrumental thing. We're
becoming more productive. Like, oh yeah, make sure you stare
out the window for at least five minutes a day,
because that'll help you be more productive. I feel like
(30:44):
sometimes we don't just do things because we just value
those things. We always do things because they have some
instrumental value in terms of achieving something else.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And that's also super interesting, maya, because those are like
little hacks, right, like, oh, you know, stare out the
window for five minutes. And if we like fill our
life with all those little hacks, we actually don't make
space for the big momentous change.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
That's so interesting. Yeah, and you're saying that because it's like, oh,
it's just taking up all your brain airwaves that you're
not Yeah, you just don't have the time to think macro.
It's a great point. I think I'll wrap by asking
what the biggest change you feel you've experienced in your life.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Is Oh my gosh, there's so many, which is part
of what makes life so fun. I think, honestly, one
of the biggest most important changes for me went from
being focused on figuring out how to.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Do my own.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Work or live my own life to taking on the
role of coaching and helping other people. All of those
relationships sort of reinforce the same change, which is how
meaningful it is to be looking out for someone else
besides yourself, and how much you can learn about everything
when you are coaching and helping someone else, And that
(32:08):
helped me actually be better at everything. So I would
say that's the biggest shift I've had in my life,
and I hope everyone will get that opportunity to have
that kind of a shift.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Wow, what a positive change, What a positive bea to
end on. I know how busy you are, and I
know how much you optimize your life in order to
make room for these kinds of conversations. So thank you
so much. It was really fun to chat with you.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
This was so fun. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
A slight change of Plans is created an executive produce
by me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,
including our producer MOLA Board, Associate producers David Jaw and
Julia Goodman, Executive producers Mei Lavelle and Justin Lange, Senior
editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben
(33:05):
Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis gar who
wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange
the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course
a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow
a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya
Schunker anytime they violate our Sorry for frog in my throat.
(33:37):
Actually I'm like, even though I'm a vegetarian, I occasionally
get a frog. You're not chewing right, so it's not
chewing fitting it right back out? Hey, thanks so much
for listening. If you like this episode, you might like
our conversation with iel at Fischbach, who talks about the
science of motivation. We've included a link to the episode
(34:00):
in our show notes. We've also included a link to
my newsletter, which you can sign up for now and
which we'll launch very soon. I really appreciate it. Thanks
much
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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