October 6, 2025 • 45 mins
When Dr. Vivek Murthy first appeared on the show a few years back, he and Maya discussed the science of loneliness and its impact on our long term health. Now, the former U.S. Surgeon General is back to share simple, practical steps we can take to nurture more meaningful relationships—and why making even small changes can help us feel more connected.
To hear Maya’s first conversation with Vivek Murthy, go to www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/a-slight-change-of-plans/the-science-of-loneliness.
To watch the full video version of this interview, go to www.pushkin.fm/slightchange.
For more from Vivek on how to create meaningful relationships in our lives, check out bit.ly/recipes4connection.
Sign up for Maya's free newsletter here: changewithmaya.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why are so many of the people that I meet
all across America and increasing across the world, why are
they so unhappy? Why do they feel that sense of
emptiness that so many people describe. So many people would say,
I guess this is just the way life is. I
guess it's like everyone's feeling this way. It's that's just life.
And I refuse to believe that because I don't think
(00:51):
that we are consigned to live a life of emptiness
where we're just unhappy, because that life is hard and
as a result unhappy. Life can be hard, and life
often is hard, but that doesn't mean that it has
to be unfulfilling.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
That's doctor Vivek Morphy, he served as the US Surgeon
General under both President Obama and President Biden. This is
the vague second time on the show. The first time
he joined us, we explored the science of loneliness and
how bad it can be for our long term health,
but we didn't get to talk about how to actually
build stronger, more meaningful connections in our lives. I wanted
(01:29):
to hear Vivgu's advice on this topic because when I
hear that it's important to quote create community I feel intimidated,
like where do I start? Should I be signing up
for a bunch of clubs or striking up small talk
with strangers? Maybe you can relate, but I'm feeling really
tired right now, and the idea of adding more items
to my to do list is exhausting. But as you'll
(01:53):
hear in this conversation, it turns out that building stronger
connection isn't necessarily about doing more. It's about being intentional
about the way we interact with the people and communities
we already have in our lives. I left this conversation
with a far more expansive understanding of what connection can
look like in my life, and I hope you will too.
(02:18):
I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and
this is a slight change of plans, a show about
who we are and who we become in the face
of a big change.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
In its deepest sense, community is a place where we
know each other, where we help each other, and where
we find purpose in contributing to each other's lives. That's
what makes a real community. Okay, It's what my father
had when he was in a small village in India
growing up. He was really poor. He didn't and when
(02:59):
I say poor, I mean there are levels of poor.
He was really really poor. I mean they didn't have
enough money to buy slippers or shoes. So the first
time he wore something on his feet was when he
was fifteen, and he got because he wasn't used to it.
They didn't have enough food around the table most nights,
so they just kept pouring more water, you know, to
dilute the dolls so there would be enough to fill,
you know, each child's bowl. Times were tough. But interestingly,
(03:21):
he told me he never felt lonely until he left
his village. That even though they were poor materially, they
were rich in community, and people knew each other there.
They actually looked out for each other. They would invite
someone in just to come talk if they were, you know,
hanging out outside the house or if they were walking
(03:42):
down the street. They also helped each other. When my
father's mother died when he was ten from tuberculosis, the
whole village stepped in and became surrogate parents to him
and his five siblings. That is what community really is now.
That is a It can feel like a lofty goal,
and especially if you don't have any sense of community
of life right now. Yeah, it can feel like a
(04:02):
big distance to go, but here's what I would say.
The path to building community is made up of small steps.
It's not like you need to completely quit your job,
move to a different city, like transform everything. You can
start very small, right. So, one of the things is
a few things I often suggest that people do, just
at a very baseline level, is to spend five minutes
(04:25):
a day reaching out to someone you care about. That
could be a video call, it could be visiting them
in person, it could be a phone call, whatever it is,
five minutes. The second thing is to make sure you're
doing one thing each day to help someone. Doesn't have
to be someone you know. It could be somebody in
your neighborhood, in your community, in your workplace, and it
(04:46):
can be something small. And the third thing is to
actually make sure that when you are people with people,
that you are present right because a lot of times
what happens, and I have been guilty of this on
countless occasions, You're catching up with somebody and then all
of a sudden, your hand dips into your pocket, your
phone comes out, you're refreshing your inbox. If you're me.
(05:06):
You're checking the scores on ESPN or like you know,
you're checking in news, and you don't have to do
these things, but we it's just like a compulsion. We
just do them, of course, right, and our attention frazzles.
But I suspect you and I have both been in
conversation with people in one case where we knew they were.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Distracted, absolutely yeah, and in another case when they were
fully focused on us, when they were looking into our eyes,
really listening to what we were saying, responding to that,
and that feels incredible. Yes, there's one last thing I'll say,
which is that something we realize. I think a lot
of us during the pandemic, especially in those first few
(05:45):
months of the pandemic, when people weren't seeing each other
very much, but we realized that it's not just the
people we know whose presence gives us comfort, it's actually
people we don't know. People would tell me how they
didn't realize how much how nice it was actually just
to be in a coffee shop for other people, Yes,
to be walking down the street and see other people, yes.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
And see their facial expressions like not have mass on exactly,
which includes so much.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, I would say at a very basic level, if
you're finding yourself, you know, unable to reach out and
call someone for whatever reason, that even just being around
other people, like leaving your home and going to the
grocery store, going to a local event or talk you know,
at your local library or at your community center, seeing
(06:28):
a load to your neighbor, any of these things, like
just being around other people, can be very powerful.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I'm happy you brought that up because because of the
moment we're in right now, where people are feeling just
so utterly exhausted and depleted, and because socializing does take effort,
it can feel very draining for a person who feels
like they're lacking connection on a Friday night after a
(06:58):
very challenging work week, and then they you know, every
time they look at the news they see something horrific happening.
To say, Okay, yes, I'm going to make an effort
to reach out to a friend and have a you know,
one on one dinner, something that just feels more taxing,
especially for people who might lean a little bit more introverted.
What I like about your advice is that in those moments, okay, yeah,
(07:19):
maybe you don't do the dinner thing. But maybe you
walk to your downtown area and you just kind of
people watch, or maybe you go to a cafe, or
maybe you sit down for dinner even by yourself, but
you're in the presence of other people. And I do
find that presence very uplifting. I remember during the pandemic,
when again we had to be socially isolated, I would
(07:41):
walk by myself to our downtown farmer's market and I
would just sit and just watch people come and go,
and there is sometimes street musicians and whatnot, and I
would feel some uplift, Like you said, even though I
wasn't creating any sort of long lasting, meaningful connection with
other humans.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It was just so comforting to be with others.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
It is absolutely it nourishes us at a very deep level.
And it's It's also why when you're walking on the street,
even if you just picked a couple of people and
smiled at them as you're workingnize it. You don't have
to say a word. Yeah, it is proven to make
you and the other person feel better.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, but what all when they don't smile back, Bud,
Why are we not a little bit kinder towards each other,
Like well, I'll get into an elevator and I'm like, hey,
how's it going, And there's just really no response at all,
And sometimes I just want to give up. And so
what do I do when I don't get the high
end response?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And then I feel a little bit of that rejection.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
So that's a good question, and I know it's your
topic because I felt the same thing, and I think
that it for me. What I've tried to do is
to understand the moment why people usually don't respond. It's
not usually because they're rejecting you, per se. Right, Like
if ten people came into the same thing, their response
may be the same. But most people there their social
(09:03):
muscle has become so weak over time that it's hard
for them to activate it. You know right away. There
are people are just donned that you said below.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Absolutely it seems like I lit up a firework or
something in front of their face. They really do. There's
almost an element of fear and like true surprise. They
almost jump a little bit. That's right, because it's so
not the norm.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That's exactly right. So if you recognize that most people's
lack of response is usually surprise or fear. Yeah, or
like some unfamiliarity for me that I was making me
feel better because actually, then it makes me realize, am
my saying hello to them is actually helpful because it's
over time and I help you more because it more
like Look, I have had this experience also as somebody
said hello, and I was so surprised I couldn't get
(09:46):
out a hello before they actually exited the setting right
or they were walking past me and they already passed,
but I was like, oh, hello, yeah, they're gone, right,
But it made me feel good. Number one that they
said hello, and it made me more attentive about saying
hello the next time, like somebody actually said hello to me.
All this just to say that I find recognizing that
(10:06):
like helps me feel remember that the reject it's not
sort of like personal rejection director to me. And what
I'm doing when I do that is not only helping
myself feel good, but I'm putting just more social energy
out into the world. And this is how norms change
is when people start behaving differently in larger and larger numbers,
and when that behavior becomes acceptable. And I think if
(10:28):
we can make it more and more of a norm
that we smile at people when we see them, and
you could choose the elevator could be your work spot,
you know, for this experiment, and you can just say, Okay,
whenever I'm in an elevator, I'm going to smile at people.
And that's just it. But that can make a really
big difference again in how you feel.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It's just hard in the moment.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
But then I also think maybe being a little bit
more empathetic too, because what if I have actually just
encountered someone on a really hard day that they're having
and so yes, I didn't get anything in return, but
maybe they got a good gift for me whishes to
be smile of at.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Absolutely, so that is helpful. Can we talk about energy
for a second, Yeah, because you just talked about the
fact that a lot of people are feeling really drained
right now, and then when you're drained, it's hard to
summon the energy to be social correct. So I think
this is a real phenomenon. So let's just talk for
a moment about this energy drain thing, because I think
about our emotional wellbeing almost like a fuel tank, right,
(11:28):
and there are things that feed that tank that increase fuel,
if you will. Social connection is one of them. Gratitude
is another. But also sleep, you know, helps tremendously, and
a lot of us don't get good quality or quantity
of sleep because our devices are interrupting our sleep. We
get up and we'll drink some water, and then we're
checking our email, et cetera. But they are all of
(11:49):
these things that can feed into, like our emotional wellbeing.
But there are also things that drain our emotional tank, right,
and those include negative people, negative news, and for many people,
their experience of social media, which is often negative, right,
not for everyone dimensions to it, but when your experience
(12:11):
of social media is that you're primarily seeing people ranting
about things, treating each other poorly, and negative news posted.
These three things. So social media, the news, and negative
people will drain you, right. And so I think if
we want or.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Other people's highlight reels, which can also drain you absolutely,
because then you're thinking, oh my god, am I the
only one suffering here? Why are they living the best
life ever in Spain?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And here I am.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Exactly yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And that constant culture
of comparison, which is dramatically accelerated online, Yes, I can
drain us too. So I think as we think about
how to improve our emotional fuel tank and fill it up,
we have to plug the holes while we're also trying
to fill the tank. And so like, for I was
(13:00):
just telling in my own life what that's looked like.
That's like number one, I'm just a lot more intentional
about my interactions engagement with people. So if somebody is
really negative, or if they're like constantly like complaining about the
world and dragging me down, et cetera, just have increasingly
chosen not to engage in those interactions, you know, and
(13:20):
to try to step away. Now easier said than done.
What if that person is a family member who you
live with, exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
You're a coworker that you have to work on a
project with, right, what can you do in that case?
Viig to tame their power over your mind and your
well being?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah. So sometimes, look, if it's a case where you
cannot reduce the amount of time and exposure that you
have to the person, sometimes you need to actually have
an honest conversation. And it doesn't have to be like, hey,
you're making me feel horrible, stop it, right, although sometimes
that you have to be that blunt, but sometimes it
can just be something as simple as like, let's just
(13:57):
say that they're bringing up politics all the time and
it makes you feel just worse about the world and
think about stuff that you don't want to think about.
You just say them, hey, look, I love working with you,
but I just really don't enjoy talking about politics. Could
we just your clear politics? We just talk about other stuff.
I'd love to talk about your family, about work, about
your recreation, anything else, but I just don't like that
about politics. And most people will respect that, you know,
(14:19):
but it requires us to sometimes be a little bit direct.
The other thing that I have done when it comes
to news is I've largely like reduced my consumption of
news by something like ninety five and ninety nine percent, right,
So I don't watch the news on TV anymore. I
(14:40):
cancel my TV subscription some years ago. I generally don't
read most news stories. I'll sometimes see I'll see digests
of headlines, so I have a sense of what's happening
in the world and can dive deeper. I certainly read
articles that trusted friends may send me, or others or
people I work with, because I know that they're filtering
it for the kind of content that will be useful
(15:03):
and important to me, and you can't escape all of it,
by the way, like you're going to see something, to
be walking down an airport, you're going to see like new
news on the TV screen, Like you're going to see stuff.
And that's fine, but we can make choices to dramatically
reduce our consumption of news. And look, I hate to
say it, but the news is trended negative over to
the last few decades. There are measurably more negative headlines.
(15:26):
We know that fear and anxiety are very reliable ways
to get people to pay attention, and the media industry
knows that too.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So they're praying on that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, so if you stoke fear and anxiety, people are
more likely to watch to click and that generates revenue.
And so the business model is largely, unfortunately steeped in
stoking our fear and anxiety. So again, it's not that
all news is bad, but it's that there's it's almost
like if I were to give you a container of
(15:56):
yogurt and I told you, look, this yogurt has protein
in it. It's got some very vitamins and minerals in it.
But by the way, it's spoiled. Actually, you'd be like, look,
I know there's good stuff in there, but I don't
know how to separate the good from the bad easily.
So I'm going to have to just put it aside.
And I find myself having to do that not only
(16:17):
within news but also then finally with social media. But
for me, and this is true for me, may I'll
be true for everyone. It was like for every one
good thing I was encountering, there were like twenty things
that were dragging me down. Yeah, And I was like,
this is like not a good do the next benefit
kids say? So I was like, you know, I just
(16:41):
this is not worth it. So I pull back on it,
and I will tell you. I was like, wow, I
normally feel better. I actually have more time because I
was at we spend more time on social media than
we think we do. Adolescents, by the way, I spend
four point eight hours a day on social media alone,
not screens, just social media. So then I was like, wow,
I actually can read a bit because I wasn't reading much.
(17:03):
I can be more present with family, all of these things.
So I mentioned all this just to say that in
our own way, many of us are feeling drained, and
we not only need to think about how to fill
our tank more with things like social connection, activities that
bring us joy, with moments of gratitude and moments of peace,
but we also need to plug these holes because there's
(17:23):
a lot that's draining our energy right now. And I
just worry that if everyone is drained all the time,
how are we going to get together and do the
things they need to be done in the world. But
also how are we going to enjoy our lives, build friendship,
be a part of community.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I understand the reduction in social media use almost being
uncontroversial when it comes to such a high reduction in
news consumption. How do you square that with this noble
goal of being an educated, informed citizen of the world
who stays on top of stuff. Because I can see
(17:58):
that being that filling some people with discomfort, like, Oh,
if I back away from the news, does that mean
that I've stopped caring about other people? Does that mean
that I'm burying my head in the sand doing an
ostrich situation when the world's on fire? Will that make
me feel less inclined to be socially active, to engage
(18:19):
in public service like help me and other people square that.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So this is and this is what we talk about
in my family all the time because my wife, Alice
is she's an extraordinary advocate and somebody who's just so
her DNA is to help people and to respond when
there's a need. And so she's also she and I
both have been thinking about how do we help be
a positive force in the world where at a time
(18:44):
where a lot of difficult and painful things are happening.
So I don't think that reducing news consumption has to
be consistent with ignoring what's happening in the world or
being uneducated. Okay, I think instead what is happening right
now is a pendulum swung so far in one end
that we're not reading a news story about a situation.
(19:05):
We're reading it ten times, written by ten ten different ways,
by ten different outlets. And that has its own toll,
because if you're reading ten negative articles instead of one
concise article, that's your time, that's also your energy that
you're expending. Most of us are not at all in
danger of being uninformed about what major events that are
(19:27):
happening in the world. We could reduce our news consumption
by eighty ninety percent and still largely get the big
events that are happening. But finally, I'll just say, in
terms of being a part of positive change, being an
advocate fighting for people who might be hurting right now,
we need to do that, There's no question, And I
would actually say we are better poised to do that
(19:49):
when we have more energy in our tank and more
time on our hands, and a lot of our time
and energy is being scrolled away and siphoned away by
the negative news that we are consuming, the time we're
spending doing that, and the time we're spending on social media.
I would love to see people dramatically reduce their consumption
of news and social media and dramatically increase their engagement
(20:12):
in their real world, whether it's meeting with their legislators
about issues of matter, whether it's protesting, whether it's going
to community meetings and talking about how is a community
we can get together and help people who are struggling
and suffering them That real world advocacy matters, But it's
often at odds.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah, you can't do that when your tank is empty.
It's interesting, Yeah, I think when we have a really visceral,
emotional negative reaction to a news article, and we find
ourselves spiraling in our bedrooms. It does give us a
false sense of accomplishment or effort of some kind, like
we did something, but actually that's something hasn't translated into
any meaningful external action. And so if we were to
(20:48):
channel our efforts that way, it just might be better
for the world.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, and also just to this point about connection and
how we build more of it, right, it's no secret
that the world is really polarized right now. It's not
just the United States. Many countries are experiencing this. It's
no secret that that's led to a lot of strife
and anger and times even violence. Right, many people used
to encounter when I travel, As a certain general would
say to me, why is it that we seem to
(21:16):
treat each other so poorly these days? Why are we
does it seem like everyone everything is so much meaner
now than.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
It used to be.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And the thing is we it's easier to be mean
and unkind to people and we don't know them. So
the question is how do we enable people to know
each other as stories? Better? Experience is better? That doesn't
happen easily online, right, Like, how many people do you
know whose views were profoundly changed because of a comment
that they read on social media or post, right, right,
(21:45):
More often that yeah, that happens actually when people come
to know one another in person.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So it's like if I'm going to community meetings, you know,
once a month, and I'm realizing, yeah, this person is
sitting next to me, they they are completely different from me,
Like they have kids, I don't. They're young, I'm old,
they're working, I'm retired. Like what do I have in
common with them? But then we're part of the same community,
we're each other. If we start talking and realizing actually
(22:11):
we're both concerned about the water quality in our community,
we're both really worried about something else that's impacting our community,
then hey, I got something in common with this person.
Maybe I'm listening to their comments, I'm learning a little
bit about their family, and then all of a sudden,
I've got a bridge that's been built. I've a foundation
on which I can then build further. But that's what
(22:34):
happens in person, and that's why I think making sure
that we are doing the things we need to fill
our tank, avoiding the things to drain our tank, and
creating opportunities for people to come together and gather, whether
it's for entertainment and joy, whether it's for understanding what
we can do to support each other. These are vital.
Allows you to tell an example, I just happened two
(22:56):
days ago. Yeah, I did this event a couple of
days ago in Marine County in California, just north of
San Francisco, and it was for a community called the
Marine Villages, and the villages as part of a broader
villages community as Boston Villages, San Francisco Villages, et cetera.
These are communities that came together to support seniors, realizing
(23:17):
that a lot of them needed some help and were
struggling with loneliness and isolation. And what's very interesting is
they just have these events where people can come together
and often will learn about topics. So I was a
speaker at one of these events. Every month they have
somebody come and speak, and people just come together and
they eat and they listen, they talk, and they learn.
But increasingly they also help, right, So they're thinking about
(23:40):
how they can be of service, like in the community,
who can they help within the community who might be struggling.
One woman I met there said to me, you know,
I've been really concerned. And she was not somebody who's
running the organization. She was just she was a member,
regular member of the organization. She said, you know, I've
been really concerned that suicide rates are so high on holidays.
She said, I've my feeling is that a lot of
(24:01):
people probably feel the acute pain of loneliness on holidays
when everyone's out with their families and they're by themselves.
She said, you know what I did is a couple
of years ago, I started hosting a party at my
house on all the major holidays, and I just post
signs so that everyone knows this is happening. They feel
like if they don't have a place they can go,
(24:22):
they can just come. She didn't say this to me
with any bravado or hey look at what I did.
She just happened to mention this. She was in a line,
you know that people who were you know who wanted
to talk for a minute. She just mentioned this, And
this is like, she's one person who's doing a wonderful
thing and making a big difference. But this is like
the power of what can happen when we create opportunities
(24:44):
for people to come together, and we never know when
one of those small acts of outreach and kindness can
read somebody at a critical moment of need, you know,
when they are feeling really down on their life. Like
when I talk to the people who've considered taking their
own life, who have considered suicide and then turned back,
(25:09):
I all often ask them like, what made you turn back?
What made you choose life? And so often it's a small,
seemingly innocuous thing that somebody said to them. It was
usually a small moment of kindness, a small moment where
(25:29):
they felt seen, I felt like they mattered, and that
gave them what they needed to hold on and to
stay with us. And so we can never underestimate that
power of reaching out to people, of showing up, and
of being in person.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. You wrote the vague in your parting prescription
(26:17):
to Americans a few weeks before you left the office
of Surgeon General that love is at the center of community.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Can you tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I think we have somehow come to see love as
less broad and powerful than it actually is. Look, my
belief for some time has been that there are two
primary forces that shape the decisions we make in the
actions we take in the world, and those are love
and fear right, and they each manifest in their own way.
(26:46):
Fear can manifest as insecurity, as jealousy, as rage. Love
can manifest as compassion, as generosity, as courage, as hope,
as forgiveness, as grace. And the question that I have
been asking myself increasing over the years when I'm making
(27:07):
big and small decisions, is what is guiding me in
this moment? Is it love or is it fear? And
I think if we really want to help society heal,
we need to have a conversation about love, about not
only how to express it in our lives, but how
to cultivate it in our children's lives, how to make
(27:28):
it a norm in society that governs how we interact
with each other, how we serve in government, how we
serve in organizations that we may lead. Right now, there's
a lot of fear in the world, and we need
more love. When I put together that Parting Prescription to America,
which was the last publication that I issued a search
in general, what was on my mind was this question
(27:49):
that had been bothering me for years, which was Why
are so many of the people that I meet all
across America and increasing across the world, why are they
so unhappy? Why do they feel that sense of emptiness
that so many people describe. And it bothered me because
so many people would say, I guess this is just
the way life. I guess it's like everyone's feeling this way.
(28:12):
It's just that's just life.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, there's a surrender, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And I refuse to believe that because I don't think
that we are consigned to live a life of emptiness. Yeah,
where we're just unhappy because that life is hard and
as a result unhappy. Life can be hard, and life
often is hard, but that doesn't mean that it has
to be unfulfilling. When I talk to young people, I
got an interesting tidbit that helped me understand this more deeply,
(28:40):
which is I would ask them the one consistent question
high school college students, how do you define success? And
was really asking is how is society defining success for you?
And they would say some version of money, power, and fame.
Now they didn't always say they agreed.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
With that, but that's what they'd been fed.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
That's what they didn't fed, and that's what they had
to follow, and even with those who disagreed with that
are said, I'm not sure it's going to make me happy.
They didn't want to risk being left behind, so they
didn't step off the treadmill. And their parents were in
the same boat. No parent wants to put their kids
at a disadvantage or makes them or you know, lead
them away from success in any way. And this is
(29:22):
a form that was being given. So parents are also
on the band where I can trying to help their kids,
you know, pursue. Those are those elements of success. But
what really matters for our fulfillment, it turns out, based
on science, our stories, our history, and our scripture scriptures
across faiths, is relationships, purpose, and service. Those are the
(29:48):
three elements that drive fulfillment. That is a trya of fulfillment.
But relationships, purpose, and service have to be anchored in
a core virtue, and that virtue is love. And that
matters because if you pursue relationships out of fear, right,
if you're doing service in your community because you're fearful,
if you don't, you won't be able to put it
on your resume and get into ca You get a
(30:09):
drop like that is problematic, and it doesn't generate the
kind of fulfillment that comes from knowing people, from helping people,
and from finding purpose and lifting each other up. We
all want to be a part of something bigger than ourselves.
That's part of human nature. It's why the eclipse was
such an incredible moment for so many people across the world.
(30:33):
You know, in twenty twenty four, we felt like we
were part of something bigger. It's why astronauts who you
may I've talked to over the years will describe looking
at the Earth from their spaceship feeling so small, yet
feeling so deeply connected in that moment because they're a
part of something bigger.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
You don't see the state lines and the country lines from.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
It all feels like we're one. And that's why a
world and a culture that tells us that successful and
fulfillment are to be found in focusing more and more
on just ourselves, on the wealth we can aggregate, the
thing we can accrue, and the power that we can amass.
That is a set of messages that increasingly take us
away from the fulfillment we need. And that's why what
(31:18):
we have to do in this moment is to actually
rebuild a culture that's rooted in this trya of fulfillment
that's anchored in that core virtue of love. And if
we do that, then I feel confident that we and
our children can live more fulfilling lives and we will
help future generations to.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Do the same.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
One thing that really resonated with me from this conversation
is that when it comes to building community and connection,
we can take out some of the intimidation factor by
starting really small, right, doing small things to nurture this
aspect of our lives, either in ourselves or in the
children that we're raising, or the communities that we live in.
(31:57):
And so one story I heard about you that I
absolutely loved that I think will liberate parents everywhere is
you have stopped making it a requirement that your house
is clean in order for you to invite people over
to hang out with you. Tell me more about that,
because I think if the Search and General can commit
former Search and General can commit to that, I think
(32:18):
all of us in our lives can say, Okay, maybe
we just get rid of that one barrier.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I think when it comes to our home, we realized
that Alice and I that we were in this school
community by default because our kids were in school with
other kids and they all had parents, but we weren't
really part of the community because weren't really seeing each other.
We weren't getting to know each other. We also realized
that in with our friends circle, but everyone was leading
(32:44):
busy lives and it's just like everyone is so overscheduled
and it was like hard to get together. And so
we finally just thought to ourselves, like, what are the
barriers that are holding us back from actually having people
because we love to have people over as opposed to
going out, because it just feels like it was actually
started very practical. It was because our kids, like, we're
(33:05):
not used to babysitters, and we always then had to
be home by like eight or eight thirty to put
them to bed. And we're like, well, how can we
go out to a restaurant and then run back. But
if we can meet at home, then our kids can
just drift off to sleep, we can still hang out
here with people, they can play in the living room,
they won't get bored in the restaurant. So that's how
this started, and then we just realized it's just nice
to be in a house, right but then the problem
(33:26):
was our house was chaos. It's like messy. It was like,
you know, it was small, and like we you know,
my wife Alice can cook, and I'm not like a
great cook, and so we're like, well if we can't
make fancy food like for people.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Finally, at one.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Point, out of desperation, just shove that all aside and
we just like message a friendly We said, look, our
house is chaotic, but if you have time, and this
is last minute, if you want to just come over
this evening and just eat whatever we're feeding a kid,
then that'd be great.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And not only did they come over, but they said
thank you for calling, because now we feel like we
can have people over because our house is chaotic too,
and we don't always know what to make. And I
also realized by the way an interesting things overscheduled as
people are. It turns out a lot of people can
do last minute stuff. Like if you call them like hey,
(34:19):
you want to just come over tonight or tomorrow night
or whatever, they can do it. But it's like when
we try to schedule an advance sometimes it's like I
don't know, I've got this, we got that, You're right,
so I don't know that we've been trying to be
more spontaneous like that. We've been trying to be clear
that what really matters is having time with people we love.
And when we think about the dinners and lunches we've
had with people we loved and how wonderful that was,
(34:42):
you know, we don't remember how clean their house was,
we don't remember exactly what they made. We just remember
that we had a wonderful time reconnecting with these friends.
So we're trying to get back to the heart of
what really matters.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
What other kinds of barriers do witness in the people
that you've talked to, either on the listening tour just
in your personal life that prevent us from taking these
small steps to connect with other people.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
So there was a whole fun sort of publication that
I issued in twenty twenty four called Recipes for Connection.
And we did this because a lot of people were
telling us they want to have folks over for meals,
but they're scared too. Yeah, So we developed this little
the Recipes for Connection book, not to give people like
recipes for how to make souflet or how to make
(35:29):
you know, like lasagna, but more to give them recipes
for different ways to gather people, because one of the
examples concerns people have is like I don't know how
to cook. Yeah, right, so how can I have people over?
Or my house is too small, right? Or my friends
at fancy houses mine is not. They look down on me,
like there's all kinds of concerns. So one of the
ideas we had is something called a childhood Favorites pot luck,
(35:52):
which is that ever you just ask a group of
friends to come over and you say, everybody, just bring
a dish that you love when you're a kid. And
I actually ended up doing this myself with a group
of chefs down in DC, and everyone brought a childhood
favorite over. I brought Rastamala, which is an Indian suite
that you're familiar with that my mom made.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I would have brought Kraft mac and cheese. Such an indulgence.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, but we got to not only taste these dishes,
but here people's stories about their childhood and that was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
We also have the idea of a leftover's party, right
where people could just you just invite everyone to just
bring great whatever leftovers they have in their fridge. Yes,
and then everyone is set together, so it just takes
their pressure off people who feel like I can't cook.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yes, it's also okay.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
I mean to your point about the barrier for us,
it's I've lost all my cooking skills. I used to
know how to cook really good South Indian food, and
I lost that skill when I think actually when I
joined the White House, because there's just no time to cook,
and so it's no longer something I can do well.
And so getting over that hump of it's actually okay
to get takeout when you have friends over. Yes, like, yes,
(36:58):
you can show your warmth and your love through other vehicles.
But I think for a while I was a little
bit self conscious, Oh are they going to think I
didn't put in the effort and time to actually cook
a proper meal for them. But like you said, people
just care so much less than you think. They just
want to have good conversation. Laughs with you.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
That's right, and we do this all the time. We'll
just get takeout and have friends over because sometimes if
we're running, like we just don't have time to cook.
The other thing is like, if you look at the
dishes that we use in the plates, they're all mismatched,
the cracks in them. There's like all kinds of stuff.
And initially I was like, oh, do we need like
better stuff, you know, because like we're supposed to be
grown ups here and like should we have better forks
(37:37):
than I. But again, nobody cares, like you care more
than your guests care. Yeah, and if your guests who
really care about them, then you should think about whether
you're inviting the right people over. Yes, frankly yes. But
the people your friends, your family, they're just not going
to care. I mean, we used to have friends over,
you know, who we worked with in the administration, and
(37:59):
you know, some of these folks who are cabinet secretaries
or they're high ups and whatever like organization or this
or that. But you come over and they're just like
anybody else. You're human, because at the end of the day,
we all want the same thing, which is to spend
time with people we care about, and to do so
with ease, now with stress, you know, not feel like
we have to live up to something that we're not
(38:20):
or be somebody that we're not. We just want to
be ourselves with people we care about.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
What is something that gives you a sense of hope
and a feeling of connection.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Right now, that's maybe surprised you that.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
I have found that interestingly, going to the gym has
actually given me this funny sort of community that I
didn't expect. Right, So, I've been spending a few weeks
in California. You're visiting my in laws. But I kept
an East Coast schedule, so I was like getting up
early doing meetings, et cetera. But that meant that I'm
(38:56):
up at like four thirty in the morning and everyone
else is asleep. So I was like, hmm, it's a
good time to go to the gym. So I started
going to the gym with the five thirty crew. And
there is a crew that goes to the gym at
five thirty, and it was usually the same people, and
we were just there every day. We see each other
start smiling at each other, and I just felt like, uh,
(39:18):
a sense of familiarity and community. And it was a small,
subtle thing, but it was unexpected. The other thing that
happened at this gym is a year prior when I
had been there, I was just in the area basketball area,
shooting baskets, and they started setting up for pickleball, and
I had never played a pickleball, but I sat there
and watched as people were playing, and I felt that
(39:40):
same sense that I did in elementary school of knowing
that I liked sports, but feeling hesitant to ask if
I could join. It was like I reverted like being
a child all of a sudden. And this one woman
in the community saw me like kind of looking longingly
at the at the folks playing and said, do you
want to join? I said, I never played pickleball before,
(40:02):
and she said, well, I can teach you. You know,
everyone here is some sort of a beginner, and she
gave me some pointers and some tip and I started
playing with them, and I came home so happy that day.
It was half an hour that I played with them,
but I felt like so cared for. I felt like
I had so much fun. It was just like real
(40:23):
sense of joy. And to bring it full circle, this year,
I happened to be again shooting baskets and they were
setting up for pickleball unexpectedly, and I looked around and
learning from us, and I was like, I should ask
if I could play. And it turns out the same
woman who taught me to play a year ago was
there and she said, ah, you came back, and I said,
(40:45):
thank you for opening up this door from me right.
And so in these beautiful ways, sometimes we find connection
and unexpected places. Sometimes somebody is willing to extend a
hand and teach us. Sometimes it's just a presence of
other people, even if we don't exchange words. And those
have just been just beautiful, unexpected sources of community and
joy in my life.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thank you so much for they This was such a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
And I'm so glad we did this. And I'll just say,
you know as we close that I just have so
much admiration for you and so much warmth that I
feel for you, and I so value our friendship. And
I think at a timeline, there's been so many people
are feeling drained and are feeling bereft of hope, you know,
(41:30):
as they look at all that's been happening in the
world for years now, growing polarization, over time, more and
more challenges, it's easy to turn to despair and to
feel like to hunker down and just say, you know what,
just got to look out for me, Like this is
just too much everything that's happening in the world, and
for people who are listening or a film that I
get it, I understand it, and you're not a bad
(41:52):
person if you feel that way. But I do think
that the opportunity we have in the middle of this
despair is actually to recognize that the most powerful thing
we need to rebuild a foundation of well being in
our society our relationships with each other. And that can
start small. It can start with the small acts of
(42:12):
kindness and outreach that we do. It can start by
us showing up in other people's lives in small ways,
and if we understand them, then we realize that we
have more agency than we think. And it turns out
that the foundation for good policy, good programs, good investment,
good culture comes from relationships. It comes from a community
(42:36):
where people truly feel like they do know each other,
where they help each other, and where they find purpose
and lifting each other up. And so that's what gives
me hope. This is the broader revolution that I think
we can build a revolution to build community, to build connection.
We can build a people centered life today. And if
more of us do that, we will build community and
(42:59):
we will build a force that we need to really
help us heal.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Hey, thanks, so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode,
please follow a slight change of plans wherever you listen
to podcasts, or share this episode with someone you know
in your life who might be struggling with loneliness. By
the way, we're trying something new on the show. We're
now releasing full video versions of some of our episodes,
including this one. You can watch my conversation with Vivek
(43:45):
at pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. That's Pushkin dot
fm slash slight Change. I'd love to know what you
think of the video, and if you'd like to see
more of them. You can reach me on Instagram at
doctor Maya Schunker or send an email to slight Change
at pushkin dot fm. Join me next time when I
(44:06):
have the total honor of talking with Nobel Peace Prize
winner Malala Yusufsai. At the age of fifteen, she was
shot in the head by the Thaliban after speaking out
publicly for girls' education.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
I was in Coma when I was seeing the world
define me. I was somehow now the bravest girl and
the most courageous gul and at fifteen, like, what do
you know about being brave and being courageous and what
do you know about being an activist?
Speaker 3 (44:36):
That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. I'll
see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Parkinson Morgan, our producers Brittany Cronin and Megan Lubin, and
our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
(45:00):
theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
so big thanks to everyone there. Of course a very
special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight
Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
See you next week.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why are so many of the people that I meet
all across America and increasing across the world, why are
they so unhappy? Why do they feel that sense of
emptiness that so many people describe. So many people would say,
I guess this is just the way life is. I
guess it's like everyone's feeling this way. It's that's just life.
And I refuse to believe that because I don't think
(00:51):
that we are consigned to live a life of emptiness
where we're just unhappy, because that life is hard and
as a result unhappy. Life can be hard, and life
often is hard, but that doesn't mean that it has
to be unfulfilling.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
That's doctor Vivek Morphy, he served as the US Surgeon
General under both President Obama and President Biden. This is
the vague second time on the show. The first time
he joined us, we explored the science of loneliness and
how bad it can be for our long term health,
but we didn't get to talk about how to actually
build stronger, more meaningful connections in our lives. I wanted
(01:29):
to hear Vivgu's advice on this topic because when I
hear that it's important to quote create community I feel intimidated,
like where do I start? Should I be signing up
for a bunch of clubs or striking up small talk
with strangers? Maybe you can relate, but I'm feeling really
tired right now, and the idea of adding more items
to my to do list is exhausting. But as you'll
(01:53):
hear in this conversation, it turns out that building stronger
connection isn't necessarily about doing more. It's about being intentional
about the way we interact with the people and communities
we already have in our lives. I left this conversation
with a far more expansive understanding of what connection can
look like in my life, and I hope you will too.
(02:18):
I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and
this is a slight change of plans, a show about
who we are and who we become in the face
of a big change.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
In its deepest sense, community is a place where we
know each other, where we help each other, and where
we find purpose in contributing to each other's lives. That's
what makes a real community. Okay, It's what my father
had when he was in a small village in India
growing up. He was really poor. He didn't and when
(02:59):
I say poor, I mean there are levels of poor.
He was really really poor. I mean they didn't have
enough money to buy slippers or shoes. So the first
time he wore something on his feet was when he
was fifteen, and he got because he wasn't used to it.
They didn't have enough food around the table most nights,
so they just kept pouring more water, you know, to
dilute the dolls so there would be enough to fill,
you know, each child's bowl. Times were tough. But interestingly,
(03:21):
he told me he never felt lonely until he left
his village. That even though they were poor materially, they
were rich in community, and people knew each other there.
They actually looked out for each other. They would invite
someone in just to come talk if they were, you know,
hanging out outside the house or if they were walking
(03:42):
down the street. They also helped each other. When my
father's mother died when he was ten from tuberculosis, the
whole village stepped in and became surrogate parents to him
and his five siblings. That is what community really is now.
That is a It can feel like a lofty goal,
and especially if you don't have any sense of community
of life right now. Yeah, it can feel like a
(04:02):
big distance to go, but here's what I would say.
The path to building community is made up of small steps.
It's not like you need to completely quit your job,
move to a different city, like transform everything. You can
start very small, right. So, one of the things is
a few things I often suggest that people do, just
at a very baseline level, is to spend five minutes
(04:25):
a day reaching out to someone you care about. That
could be a video call, it could be visiting them
in person, it could be a phone call, whatever it is,
five minutes. The second thing is to make sure you're
doing one thing each day to help someone. Doesn't have
to be someone you know. It could be somebody in
your neighborhood, in your community, in your workplace, and it
(04:46):
can be something small. And the third thing is to
actually make sure that when you are people with people,
that you are present right because a lot of times
what happens, and I have been guilty of this on
countless occasions, You're catching up with somebody and then all
of a sudden, your hand dips into your pocket, your
phone comes out, you're refreshing your inbox. If you're me.
(05:06):
You're checking the scores on ESPN or like you know,
you're checking in news, and you don't have to do
these things, but we it's just like a compulsion. We
just do them, of course, right, and our attention frazzles.
But I suspect you and I have both been in
conversation with people in one case where we knew they were.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Distracted, absolutely yeah, and in another case when they were
fully focused on us, when they were looking into our eyes,
really listening to what we were saying, responding to that,
and that feels incredible. Yes, there's one last thing I'll say,
which is that something we realize. I think a lot
of us during the pandemic, especially in those first few
(05:45):
months of the pandemic, when people weren't seeing each other
very much, but we realized that it's not just the
people we know whose presence gives us comfort, it's actually
people we don't know. People would tell me how they
didn't realize how much how nice it was actually just
to be in a coffee shop for other people, Yes,
to be walking down the street and see other people, yes.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
And see their facial expressions like not have mass on exactly,
which includes so much.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, I would say at a very basic level, if
you're finding yourself, you know, unable to reach out and
call someone for whatever reason, that even just being around
other people, like leaving your home and going to the
grocery store, going to a local event or talk you know,
at your local library or at your community center, seeing
(06:28):
a load to your neighbor, any of these things, like
just being around other people, can be very powerful.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I'm happy you brought that up because because of the
moment we're in right now, where people are feeling just
so utterly exhausted and depleted, and because socializing does take effort,
it can feel very draining for a person who feels
like they're lacking connection on a Friday night after a
(06:58):
very challenging work week, and then they you know, every
time they look at the news they see something horrific happening.
To say, Okay, yes, I'm going to make an effort
to reach out to a friend and have a you know,
one on one dinner, something that just feels more taxing,
especially for people who might lean a little bit more introverted.
What I like about your advice is that in those moments, okay, yeah,
(07:19):
maybe you don't do the dinner thing. But maybe you
walk to your downtown area and you just kind of
people watch, or maybe you go to a cafe, or
maybe you sit down for dinner even by yourself, but
you're in the presence of other people. And I do
find that presence very uplifting. I remember during the pandemic,
when again we had to be socially isolated, I would
(07:41):
walk by myself to our downtown farmer's market and I
would just sit and just watch people come and go,
and there is sometimes street musicians and whatnot, and I
would feel some uplift, Like you said, even though I
wasn't creating any sort of long lasting, meaningful connection with
other humans.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It was just so comforting to be with others.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
It is absolutely it nourishes us at a very deep level.
And it's It's also why when you're walking on the street,
even if you just picked a couple of people and
smiled at them as you're workingnize it. You don't have
to say a word. Yeah, it is proven to make
you and the other person feel better.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, but what all when they don't smile back, Bud,
Why are we not a little bit kinder towards each other,
Like well, I'll get into an elevator and I'm like, hey,
how's it going, And there's just really no response at all,
And sometimes I just want to give up. And so
what do I do when I don't get the high
end response?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And then I feel a little bit of that rejection.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
So that's a good question, and I know it's your
topic because I felt the same thing, and I think
that it for me. What I've tried to do is
to understand the moment why people usually don't respond. It's
not usually because they're rejecting you, per se. Right, Like
if ten people came into the same thing, their response
may be the same. But most people there their social
(09:03):
muscle has become so weak over time that it's hard
for them to activate it. You know right away. There
are people are just donned that you said below.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Absolutely it seems like I lit up a firework or
something in front of their face. They really do. There's
almost an element of fear and like true surprise. They
almost jump a little bit. That's right, because it's so
not the norm.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That's exactly right. So if you recognize that most people's
lack of response is usually surprise or fear. Yeah, or
like some unfamiliarity for me that I was making me
feel better because actually, then it makes me realize, am
my saying hello to them is actually helpful because it's
over time and I help you more because it more
like Look, I have had this experience also as somebody
said hello, and I was so surprised I couldn't get
(09:46):
out a hello before they actually exited the setting right
or they were walking past me and they already passed,
but I was like, oh, hello, yeah, they're gone, right,
But it made me feel good. Number one that they
said hello, and it made me more attentive about saying
hello the next time, like somebody actually said hello to me.
All this just to say that I find recognizing that
(10:06):
like helps me feel remember that the reject it's not
sort of like personal rejection director to me. And what
I'm doing when I do that is not only helping
myself feel good, but I'm putting just more social energy
out into the world. And this is how norms change
is when people start behaving differently in larger and larger numbers,
and when that behavior becomes acceptable. And I think if
(10:28):
we can make it more and more of a norm
that we smile at people when we see them, and
you could choose the elevator could be your work spot,
you know, for this experiment, and you can just say, Okay,
whenever I'm in an elevator, I'm going to smile at people.
And that's just it. But that can make a really
big difference again in how you feel.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It's just hard in the moment.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
But then I also think maybe being a little bit
more empathetic too, because what if I have actually just
encountered someone on a really hard day that they're having
and so yes, I didn't get anything in return, but
maybe they got a good gift for me whishes to
be smile of at.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Absolutely, so that is helpful. Can we talk about energy
for a second, Yeah, because you just talked about the
fact that a lot of people are feeling really drained
right now, and then when you're drained, it's hard to
summon the energy to be social correct. So I think
this is a real phenomenon. So let's just talk for
a moment about this energy drain thing, because I think
about our emotional wellbeing almost like a fuel tank, right,
(11:28):
and there are things that feed that tank that increase fuel,
if you will. Social connection is one of them. Gratitude
is another. But also sleep, you know, helps tremendously, and
a lot of us don't get good quality or quantity
of sleep because our devices are interrupting our sleep. We
get up and we'll drink some water, and then we're
checking our email, et cetera. But they are all of
(11:49):
these things that can feed into, like our emotional wellbeing.
But there are also things that drain our emotional tank, right,
and those include negative people, negative news, and for many people,
their experience of social media, which is often negative, right,
not for everyone dimensions to it, but when your experience
(12:11):
of social media is that you're primarily seeing people ranting
about things, treating each other poorly, and negative news posted.
These three things. So social media, the news, and negative
people will drain you, right. And so I think if
we want or.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Other people's highlight reels, which can also drain you absolutely,
because then you're thinking, oh my god, am I the
only one suffering here? Why are they living the best
life ever in Spain?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And here I am.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Exactly yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And that constant culture
of comparison, which is dramatically accelerated online, Yes, I can
drain us too. So I think as we think about
how to improve our emotional fuel tank and fill it up,
we have to plug the holes while we're also trying
to fill the tank. And so like, for I was
(13:00):
just telling in my own life what that's looked like.
That's like number one, I'm just a lot more intentional
about my interactions engagement with people. So if somebody is
really negative, or if they're like constantly like complaining about the
world and dragging me down, et cetera, just have increasingly
chosen not to engage in those interactions, you know, and
(13:20):
to try to step away. Now easier said than done.
What if that person is a family member who you
live with, exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
You're a coworker that you have to work on a
project with, right, what can you do in that case?
Viig to tame their power over your mind and your
well being?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah. So sometimes, look, if it's a case where you
cannot reduce the amount of time and exposure that you
have to the person, sometimes you need to actually have
an honest conversation. And it doesn't have to be like, hey,
you're making me feel horrible, stop it, right, although sometimes
that you have to be that blunt, but sometimes it
can just be something as simple as like, let's just
(13:57):
say that they're bringing up politics all the time and
it makes you feel just worse about the world and
think about stuff that you don't want to think about.
You just say them, hey, look, I love working with you,
but I just really don't enjoy talking about politics. Could
we just your clear politics? We just talk about other stuff.
I'd love to talk about your family, about work, about
your recreation, anything else, but I just don't like that
about politics. And most people will respect that, you know,
(14:19):
but it requires us to sometimes be a little bit direct.
The other thing that I have done when it comes
to news is I've largely like reduced my consumption of
news by something like ninety five and ninety nine percent, right,
So I don't watch the news on TV anymore. I
(14:40):
cancel my TV subscription some years ago. I generally don't
read most news stories. I'll sometimes see I'll see digests
of headlines, so I have a sense of what's happening
in the world and can dive deeper. I certainly read
articles that trusted friends may send me, or others or
people I work with, because I know that they're filtering
it for the kind of content that will be useful
(15:03):
and important to me, and you can't escape all of it,
by the way, like you're going to see something, to
be walking down an airport, you're going to see like new
news on the TV screen, Like you're going to see stuff.
And that's fine, but we can make choices to dramatically
reduce our consumption of news. And look, I hate to
say it, but the news is trended negative over to
the last few decades. There are measurably more negative headlines.
(15:26):
We know that fear and anxiety are very reliable ways
to get people to pay attention, and the media industry
knows that too.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So they're praying on that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, so if you stoke fear and anxiety, people are
more likely to watch to click and that generates revenue.
And so the business model is largely, unfortunately steeped in
stoking our fear and anxiety. So again, it's not that
all news is bad, but it's that there's it's almost
like if I were to give you a container of
(15:56):
yogurt and I told you, look, this yogurt has protein
in it. It's got some very vitamins and minerals in it.
But by the way, it's spoiled. Actually, you'd be like, look,
I know there's good stuff in there, but I don't
know how to separate the good from the bad easily.
So I'm going to have to just put it aside.
And I find myself having to do that not only
(16:17):
within news but also then finally with social media. But
for me, and this is true for me, may I'll
be true for everyone. It was like for every one
good thing I was encountering, there were like twenty things
that were dragging me down. Yeah, And I was like,
this is like not a good do the next benefit
kids say? So I was like, you know, I just
(16:41):
this is not worth it. So I pull back on it,
and I will tell you. I was like, wow, I
normally feel better. I actually have more time because I
was at we spend more time on social media than
we think we do. Adolescents, by the way, I spend
four point eight hours a day on social media alone,
not screens, just social media. So then I was like, wow,
I actually can read a bit because I wasn't reading much.
(17:03):
I can be more present with family, all of these things.
So I mentioned all this just to say that in
our own way, many of us are feeling drained, and
we not only need to think about how to fill
our tank more with things like social connection, activities that
bring us joy, with moments of gratitude and moments of peace,
but we also need to plug these holes because there's
(17:23):
a lot that's draining our energy right now. And I
just worry that if everyone is drained all the time,
how are we going to get together and do the
things they need to be done in the world. But
also how are we going to enjoy our lives, build friendship,
be a part of community.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I understand the reduction in social media use almost being
uncontroversial when it comes to such a high reduction in
news consumption. How do you square that with this noble
goal of being an educated, informed citizen of the world
who stays on top of stuff. Because I can see
(17:58):
that being that filling some people with discomfort, like, Oh,
if I back away from the news, does that mean
that I've stopped caring about other people? Does that mean
that I'm burying my head in the sand doing an
ostrich situation when the world's on fire? Will that make
me feel less inclined to be socially active, to engage
(18:19):
in public service like help me and other people square that.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So this is and this is what we talk about
in my family all the time because my wife, Alice
is she's an extraordinary advocate and somebody who's just so
her DNA is to help people and to respond when
there's a need. And so she's also she and I
both have been thinking about how do we help be
a positive force in the world where at a time
(18:44):
where a lot of difficult and painful things are happening.
So I don't think that reducing news consumption has to
be consistent with ignoring what's happening in the world or
being uneducated. Okay, I think instead what is happening right
now is a pendulum swung so far in one end
that we're not reading a news story about a situation.
(19:05):
We're reading it ten times, written by ten ten different ways,
by ten different outlets. And that has its own toll,
because if you're reading ten negative articles instead of one
concise article, that's your time, that's also your energy that
you're expending. Most of us are not at all in
danger of being uninformed about what major events that are
(19:27):
happening in the world. We could reduce our news consumption
by eighty ninety percent and still largely get the big
events that are happening. But finally, I'll just say, in
terms of being a part of positive change, being an
advocate fighting for people who might be hurting right now,
we need to do that, There's no question, And I
would actually say we are better poised to do that
(19:49):
when we have more energy in our tank and more
time on our hands, and a lot of our time
and energy is being scrolled away and siphoned away by
the negative news that we are consuming, the time we're
spending doing that, and the time we're spending on social media.
I would love to see people dramatically reduce their consumption
of news and social media and dramatically increase their engagement
(20:12):
in their real world, whether it's meeting with their legislators
about issues of matter, whether it's protesting, whether it's going
to community meetings and talking about how is a community
we can get together and help people who are struggling
and suffering them That real world advocacy matters, But it's
often at odds.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah, you can't do that when your tank is empty.
It's interesting, Yeah, I think when we have a really visceral,
emotional negative reaction to a news article, and we find
ourselves spiraling in our bedrooms. It does give us a
false sense of accomplishment or effort of some kind, like
we did something, but actually that's something hasn't translated into
any meaningful external action. And so if we were to
(20:48):
channel our efforts that way, it just might be better
for the world.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, and also just to this point about connection and
how we build more of it, right, it's no secret
that the world is really polarized right now. It's not
just the United States. Many countries are experiencing this. It's
no secret that that's led to a lot of strife
and anger and times even violence. Right, many people used
to encounter when I travel, As a certain general would
say to me, why is it that we seem to
(21:16):
treat each other so poorly these days? Why are we
does it seem like everyone everything is so much meaner
now than.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
It used to be.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And the thing is we it's easier to be mean
and unkind to people and we don't know them. So
the question is how do we enable people to know
each other as stories? Better? Experience is better? That doesn't
happen easily online, right, Like, how many people do you
know whose views were profoundly changed because of a comment
that they read on social media or post, right, right,
(21:45):
More often that yeah, that happens actually when people come
to know one another in person.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So it's like if I'm going to community meetings, you know,
once a month, and I'm realizing, yeah, this person is
sitting next to me, they they are completely different from me,
Like they have kids, I don't. They're young, I'm old,
they're working, I'm retired. Like what do I have in
common with them? But then we're part of the same community,
we're each other. If we start talking and realizing actually
(22:11):
we're both concerned about the water quality in our community,
we're both really worried about something else that's impacting our community,
then hey, I got something in common with this person.
Maybe I'm listening to their comments, I'm learning a little
bit about their family, and then all of a sudden,
I've got a bridge that's been built. I've a foundation
on which I can then build further. But that's what
(22:34):
happens in person, and that's why I think making sure
that we are doing the things we need to fill
our tank, avoiding the things to drain our tank, and
creating opportunities for people to come together and gather, whether
it's for entertainment and joy, whether it's for understanding what
we can do to support each other. These are vital.
Allows you to tell an example, I just happened two
(22:56):
days ago. Yeah, I did this event a couple of
days ago in Marine County in California, just north of
San Francisco, and it was for a community called the
Marine Villages, and the villages as part of a broader
villages community as Boston Villages, San Francisco Villages, et cetera.
These are communities that came together to support seniors, realizing
(23:17):
that a lot of them needed some help and were
struggling with loneliness and isolation. And what's very interesting is
they just have these events where people can come together
and often will learn about topics. So I was a
speaker at one of these events. Every month they have
somebody come and speak, and people just come together and
they eat and they listen, they talk, and they learn.
But increasingly they also help, right, So they're thinking about
(23:40):
how they can be of service, like in the community,
who can they help within the community who might be struggling.
One woman I met there said to me, you know,
I've been really concerned. And she was not somebody who's
running the organization. She was just she was a member,
regular member of the organization. She said, you know, I've
been really concerned that suicide rates are so high on holidays.
She said, I've my feeling is that a lot of
(24:01):
people probably feel the acute pain of loneliness on holidays
when everyone's out with their families and they're by themselves.
She said, you know what I did is a couple
of years ago, I started hosting a party at my
house on all the major holidays, and I just post
signs so that everyone knows this is happening. They feel
like if they don't have a place they can go,
(24:22):
they can just come. She didn't say this to me
with any bravado or hey look at what I did.
She just happened to mention this. She was in a line,
you know that people who were you know who wanted
to talk for a minute. She just mentioned this, And
this is like, she's one person who's doing a wonderful
thing and making a big difference. But this is like
the power of what can happen when we create opportunities
(24:44):
for people to come together, and we never know when
one of those small acts of outreach and kindness can
read somebody at a critical moment of need, you know,
when they are feeling really down on their life. Like
when I talk to the people who've considered taking their
own life, who have considered suicide and then turned back,
(25:09):
I all often ask them like, what made you turn back?
What made you choose life? And so often it's a small,
seemingly innocuous thing that somebody said to them. It was
usually a small moment of kindness, a small moment where
(25:29):
they felt seen, I felt like they mattered, and that
gave them what they needed to hold on and to
stay with us. And so we can never underestimate that
power of reaching out to people, of showing up, and
of being in person.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. You wrote the vague in your parting prescription
(26:17):
to Americans a few weeks before you left the office
of Surgeon General that love is at the center of community.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Can you tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I think we have somehow come to see love as
less broad and powerful than it actually is. Look, my
belief for some time has been that there are two
primary forces that shape the decisions we make in the
actions we take in the world, and those are love
and fear right, and they each manifest in their own way.
(26:46):
Fear can manifest as insecurity, as jealousy, as rage. Love
can manifest as compassion, as generosity, as courage, as hope,
as forgiveness, as grace. And the question that I have
been asking myself increasing over the years when I'm making
(27:07):
big and small decisions, is what is guiding me in
this moment? Is it love or is it fear? And
I think if we really want to help society heal,
we need to have a conversation about love, about not
only how to express it in our lives, but how
to cultivate it in our children's lives, how to make
(27:28):
it a norm in society that governs how we interact
with each other, how we serve in government, how we
serve in organizations that we may lead. Right now, there's
a lot of fear in the world, and we need
more love. When I put together that Parting Prescription to America,
which was the last publication that I issued a search
in general, what was on my mind was this question
(27:49):
that had been bothering me for years, which was Why
are so many of the people that I meet all
across America and increasing across the world, why are they
so unhappy? Why do they feel that sense of emptiness
that so many people describe. And it bothered me because
so many people would say, I guess this is just
the way life. I guess it's like everyone's feeling this way.
(28:12):
It's just that's just life.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, there's a surrender, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And I refuse to believe that because I don't think
that we are consigned to live a life of emptiness. Yeah,
where we're just unhappy because that life is hard and
as a result unhappy. Life can be hard, and life
often is hard, but that doesn't mean that it has
to be unfulfilling. When I talk to young people, I
got an interesting tidbit that helped me understand this more deeply,
(28:40):
which is I would ask them the one consistent question
high school college students, how do you define success? And
was really asking is how is society defining success for you?
And they would say some version of money, power, and fame.
Now they didn't always say they agreed.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
With that, but that's what they'd been fed.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
That's what they didn't fed, and that's what they had
to follow, and even with those who disagreed with that
are said, I'm not sure it's going to make me happy.
They didn't want to risk being left behind, so they
didn't step off the treadmill. And their parents were in
the same boat. No parent wants to put their kids
at a disadvantage or makes them or you know, lead
them away from success in any way. And this is
(29:22):
a form that was being given. So parents are also
on the band where I can trying to help their kids,
you know, pursue. Those are those elements of success. But
what really matters for our fulfillment, it turns out, based
on science, our stories, our history, and our scripture scriptures
across faiths, is relationships, purpose, and service. Those are the
(29:48):
three elements that drive fulfillment. That is a trya of fulfillment.
But relationships, purpose, and service have to be anchored in
a core virtue, and that virtue is love. And that
matters because if you pursue relationships out of fear, right,
if you're doing service in your community because you're fearful,
if you don't, you won't be able to put it
on your resume and get into ca You get a
(30:09):
drop like that is problematic, and it doesn't generate the
kind of fulfillment that comes from knowing people, from helping people,
and from finding purpose and lifting each other up. We
all want to be a part of something bigger than ourselves.
That's part of human nature. It's why the eclipse was
such an incredible moment for so many people across the world.
(30:33):
You know, in twenty twenty four, we felt like we
were part of something bigger. It's why astronauts who you
may I've talked to over the years will describe looking
at the Earth from their spaceship feeling so small, yet
feeling so deeply connected in that moment because they're a
part of something bigger.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
You don't see the state lines and the country lines from.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
It all feels like we're one. And that's why a
world and a culture that tells us that successful and
fulfillment are to be found in focusing more and more
on just ourselves, on the wealth we can aggregate, the
thing we can accrue, and the power that we can amass.
That is a set of messages that increasingly take us
away from the fulfillment we need. And that's why what
(31:18):
we have to do in this moment is to actually
rebuild a culture that's rooted in this trya of fulfillment
that's anchored in that core virtue of love. And if
we do that, then I feel confident that we and
our children can live more fulfilling lives and we will
help future generations to.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Do the same.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
One thing that really resonated with me from this conversation
is that when it comes to building community and connection,
we can take out some of the intimidation factor by
starting really small, right, doing small things to nurture this
aspect of our lives, either in ourselves or in the
children that we're raising, or the communities that we live in.
(31:57):
And so one story I heard about you that I
absolutely loved that I think will liberate parents everywhere is
you have stopped making it a requirement that your house
is clean in order for you to invite people over
to hang out with you. Tell me more about that,
because I think if the Search and General can commit
former Search and General can commit to that, I think
(32:18):
all of us in our lives can say, Okay, maybe
we just get rid of that one barrier.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I think when it comes to our home, we realized
that Alice and I that we were in this school
community by default because our kids were in school with
other kids and they all had parents, but we weren't
really part of the community because weren't really seeing each other.
We weren't getting to know each other. We also realized
that in with our friends circle, but everyone was leading
(32:44):
busy lives and it's just like everyone is so overscheduled
and it was like hard to get together. And so
we finally just thought to ourselves, like, what are the
barriers that are holding us back from actually having people
because we love to have people over as opposed to
going out, because it just feels like it was actually
started very practical. It was because our kids, like, we're
(33:05):
not used to babysitters, and we always then had to
be home by like eight or eight thirty to put
them to bed. And we're like, well, how can we
go out to a restaurant and then run back. But
if we can meet at home, then our kids can
just drift off to sleep, we can still hang out
here with people, they can play in the living room,
they won't get bored in the restaurant. So that's how
this started, and then we just realized it's just nice
to be in a house, right but then the problem
(33:26):
was our house was chaos. It's like messy. It was like,
you know, it was small, and like we you know,
my wife Alice can cook, and I'm not like a
great cook, and so we're like, well if we can't
make fancy food like for people.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Finally, at one.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Point, out of desperation, just shove that all aside and
we just like message a friendly We said, look, our
house is chaotic, but if you have time, and this
is last minute, if you want to just come over
this evening and just eat whatever we're feeding a kid,
then that'd be great.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And not only did they come over, but they said
thank you for calling, because now we feel like we
can have people over because our house is chaotic too,
and we don't always know what to make. And I
also realized by the way an interesting things overscheduled as
people are. It turns out a lot of people can
do last minute stuff. Like if you call them like hey,
(34:19):
you want to just come over tonight or tomorrow night
or whatever, they can do it. But it's like when
we try to schedule an advance sometimes it's like I
don't know, I've got this, we got that, You're right,
so I don't know that we've been trying to be
more spontaneous like that. We've been trying to be clear
that what really matters is having time with people we love.
And when we think about the dinners and lunches we've
had with people we loved and how wonderful that was,
(34:42):
you know, we don't remember how clean their house was,
we don't remember exactly what they made. We just remember
that we had a wonderful time reconnecting with these friends.
So we're trying to get back to the heart of
what really matters.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
What other kinds of barriers do witness in the people
that you've talked to, either on the listening tour just
in your personal life that prevent us from taking these
small steps to connect with other people.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
So there was a whole fun sort of publication that
I issued in twenty twenty four called Recipes for Connection.
And we did this because a lot of people were
telling us they want to have folks over for meals,
but they're scared too. Yeah, So we developed this little
the Recipes for Connection book, not to give people like
recipes for how to make souflet or how to make
(35:29):
you know, like lasagna, but more to give them recipes
for different ways to gather people, because one of the
examples concerns people have is like I don't know how
to cook. Yeah, right, so how can I have people over?
Or my house is too small, right? Or my friends
at fancy houses mine is not. They look down on me,
like there's all kinds of concerns. So one of the
ideas we had is something called a childhood Favorites pot luck,
(35:52):
which is that ever you just ask a group of
friends to come over and you say, everybody, just bring
a dish that you love when you're a kid. And
I actually ended up doing this myself with a group
of chefs down in DC, and everyone brought a childhood
favorite over. I brought Rastamala, which is an Indian suite
that you're familiar with that my mom made.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I would have brought Kraft mac and cheese. Such an indulgence.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, but we got to not only taste these dishes,
but here people's stories about their childhood and that was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
We also have the idea of a leftover's party, right
where people could just you just invite everyone to just
bring great whatever leftovers they have in their fridge. Yes,
and then everyone is set together, so it just takes
their pressure off people who feel like I can't cook.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yes, it's also okay.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
I mean to your point about the barrier for us,
it's I've lost all my cooking skills. I used to
know how to cook really good South Indian food, and
I lost that skill when I think actually when I
joined the White House, because there's just no time to cook,
and so it's no longer something I can do well.
And so getting over that hump of it's actually okay
to get takeout when you have friends over. Yes, like, yes,
(36:58):
you can show your warmth and your love through other vehicles.
But I think for a while I was a little
bit self conscious, Oh are they going to think I
didn't put in the effort and time to actually cook
a proper meal for them. But like you said, people
just care so much less than you think. They just
want to have good conversation. Laughs with you.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
That's right, and we do this all the time. We'll
just get takeout and have friends over because sometimes if
we're running, like we just don't have time to cook.
The other thing is like, if you look at the
dishes that we use in the plates, they're all mismatched,
the cracks in them. There's like all kinds of stuff.
And initially I was like, oh, do we need like
better stuff, you know, because like we're supposed to be
grown ups here and like should we have better forks
(37:37):
than I. But again, nobody cares, like you care more
than your guests care. Yeah, and if your guests who
really care about them, then you should think about whether
you're inviting the right people over. Yes, frankly yes. But
the people your friends, your family, they're just not going
to care. I mean, we used to have friends over,
you know, who we worked with in the administration, and
(37:59):
you know, some of these folks who are cabinet secretaries
or they're high ups and whatever like organization or this
or that. But you come over and they're just like
anybody else. You're human, because at the end of the day,
we all want the same thing, which is to spend
time with people we care about, and to do so
with ease, now with stress, you know, not feel like
we have to live up to something that we're not
(38:20):
or be somebody that we're not. We just want to
be ourselves with people we care about.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
What is something that gives you a sense of hope
and a feeling of connection.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Right now, that's maybe surprised you that.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
I have found that interestingly, going to the gym has
actually given me this funny sort of community that I
didn't expect. Right, So, I've been spending a few weeks
in California. You're visiting my in laws. But I kept
an East Coast schedule, so I was like getting up
early doing meetings, et cetera. But that meant that I'm
(38:56):
up at like four thirty in the morning and everyone
else is asleep. So I was like, hmm, it's a
good time to go to the gym. So I started
going to the gym with the five thirty crew. And
there is a crew that goes to the gym at
five thirty, and it was usually the same people, and
we were just there every day. We see each other
start smiling at each other, and I just felt like, uh,
(39:18):
a sense of familiarity and community. And it was a small,
subtle thing, but it was unexpected. The other thing that
happened at this gym is a year prior when I
had been there, I was just in the area basketball area,
shooting baskets, and they started setting up for pickleball, and
I had never played a pickleball, but I sat there
and watched as people were playing, and I felt that
(39:40):
same sense that I did in elementary school of knowing
that I liked sports, but feeling hesitant to ask if
I could join. It was like I reverted like being
a child all of a sudden. And this one woman
in the community saw me like kind of looking longingly
at the at the folks playing and said, do you
want to join? I said, I never played pickleball before,
(40:02):
and she said, well, I can teach you. You know,
everyone here is some sort of a beginner, and she
gave me some pointers and some tip and I started
playing with them, and I came home so happy that day.
It was half an hour that I played with them,
but I felt like so cared for. I felt like
I had so much fun. It was just like real
(40:23):
sense of joy. And to bring it full circle, this year,
I happened to be again shooting baskets and they were
setting up for pickleball unexpectedly, and I looked around and
learning from us, and I was like, I should ask
if I could play. And it turns out the same
woman who taught me to play a year ago was
there and she said, ah, you came back, and I said,
(40:45):
thank you for opening up this door from me right.
And so in these beautiful ways, sometimes we find connection
and unexpected places. Sometimes somebody is willing to extend a
hand and teach us. Sometimes it's just a presence of
other people, even if we don't exchange words. And those
have just been just beautiful, unexpected sources of community and
joy in my life.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thank you so much for they This was such a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
And I'm so glad we did this. And I'll just say,
you know as we close that I just have so
much admiration for you and so much warmth that I
feel for you, and I so value our friendship. And
I think at a timeline, there's been so many people
are feeling drained and are feeling bereft of hope, you know,
(41:30):
as they look at all that's been happening in the
world for years now, growing polarization, over time, more and
more challenges, it's easy to turn to despair and to
feel like to hunker down and just say, you know what,
just got to look out for me, Like this is
just too much everything that's happening in the world, and
for people who are listening or a film that I
get it, I understand it, and you're not a bad
(41:52):
person if you feel that way. But I do think
that the opportunity we have in the middle of this
despair is actually to recognize that the most powerful thing
we need to rebuild a foundation of well being in
our society our relationships with each other. And that can
start small. It can start with the small acts of
(42:12):
kindness and outreach that we do. It can start by
us showing up in other people's lives in small ways,
and if we understand them, then we realize that we
have more agency than we think. And it turns out
that the foundation for good policy, good programs, good investment,
good culture comes from relationships. It comes from a community
(42:36):
where people truly feel like they do know each other,
where they help each other, and where they find purpose
and lifting each other up. And so that's what gives
me hope. This is the broader revolution that I think
we can build a revolution to build community, to build connection.
We can build a people centered life today. And if
more of us do that, we will build community and
(42:59):
we will build a force that we need to really
help us heal.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Hey, thanks, so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode,
please follow a slight change of plans wherever you listen
to podcasts, or share this episode with someone you know
in your life who might be struggling with loneliness. By
the way, we're trying something new on the show. We're
now releasing full video versions of some of our episodes,
including this one. You can watch my conversation with Vivek
(43:45):
at pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. That's Pushkin dot
fm slash slight Change. I'd love to know what you
think of the video, and if you'd like to see
more of them. You can reach me on Instagram at
doctor Maya Schunker or send an email to slight Change
at pushkin dot fm. Join me next time when I
(44:06):
have the total honor of talking with Nobel Peace Prize
winner Malala Yusufsai. At the age of fifteen, she was
shot in the head by the Thaliban after speaking out
publicly for girls' education.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
I was in Coma when I was seeing the world
define me. I was somehow now the bravest girl and
the most courageous gul and at fifteen, like, what do
you know about being brave and being courageous and what
do you know about being an activist?
Speaker 3 (44:36):
That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. I'll
see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Parkinson Morgan, our producers Brittany Cronin and Megan Lubin, and
our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
(45:00):
theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
so big thanks to everyone there. Of course a very
special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight
Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
See you next week.
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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