December 1, 2025 • 37 mins
After a turbulent adolescence and decades of reinvention, Zarna Garg found her voice somewhere she never expected: stand-up comedy. On today’s episode, she tells Maya why she believes courage is a skill you can learn, and how failure has been a key to her success on stage and off.
Register for Maya’s virtual book event with Brene Brown at changewithmaya.com/launch. Spots are limited, and the deadline to sign up is December 14th.
Don’t forget to pre-order Maya’s book, “The Other Side of Change,” at changewithmaya.com/book.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin hay Slight Changers. I can't believe I get to
say this, but Brenee Brown is launching my new book,
(00:36):
The Other Side of Change into the World. Join me
for an exclusive virtual conversation with Brene on the eve
of my book launch, January twelfth, at eight pm Eastern.
Brene's work has shaped my understanding of resilience, and I'm
delighted that she believes in this book as much as
I do. You can register for the event at the
(00:57):
link in the show notes or at changewithmaya dot com
slash launch. The event is open to anyone who has
pre ordered the book from any retailer in the US.
Are limited and registration closes on December fourteenth, so sign
up soon, and if you can't make the event live,
don't worry, a recording will be sent to everyone who
(01:19):
signs up. I can't wait to see you there. Okay,
Now onto Zarna Garg.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
People have always said that I'm funny. That is one
thing I've had my whole life, and my whole life,
I was a great. Of all the gifts that I
could have gotten, I got this funny. What are you doing? Funny? Nothing?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
When Zarna garg was growing up in Mumbai, her ability
to make people laugh didn't register as a valuable skill,
but today she is one of the most in demand
comedians in America. She's open for people like Amy Poehler
and Tina Fey, and has starred in two solo comedy specials.
Zarna first step foot on a comedy stage when she
(02:02):
was forty four years old, and she's quickly become known
for her irreverence style.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
A little about me. I'm an immigrant. I'm here to
take your jobs. Wat job, Jerry Seinfeld.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
But she doesn't just take risks on stage. What's defined
her success in life is a high tolerance for discomfort
and a steadfast trust in her own instincts.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Courage is a learned behavior. Nobody gave it to me.
I have to give it to me. A lot of
people say I just don't have it in me, as
if other people just got it and they didn't. It's
not like that. You can learn courage the way you
learned to walk.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
On Today's show, why It's never too late to bet
on yourself. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior,
and this is a slight change of plans a show
about who we are and who we become in the
face of a big change. I first encountered Zarna while
(03:19):
scrolling YouTube one day and instantly found her both relatable
and hilarious.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Everywhere you know. My eleven year old son came home
from school the other day and he goes, mom, my, teth.
School has asked me to declare my pronouns. What should
I say? I said, you tell them you are Indian.
Your pronoun is doctor.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
But I didn't know much about her personal story and
how exactly she scaled comedy heights until I read her
best selling memoir, This American Woman. As I would come
to learn, Zarna's courage to determine her own path was
a reaction to a life she knew she didn't want.
Zarna grew up in India in the nineteen eighties in
(04:01):
a well to do family. Things were comfortable, but she
always felt that her rebellious, outspoken personality type ran against
the cultural norms in her family. Things came to a
head when she was fourteen and her dad told her
it was time for an arranged marriage.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I just didn't want it. Look I thought I had
the choice. I assumed that I'm being asked do I
want to do it? So that was the first big
wake up call that no one was asking me. I
was being told that this is what we're doing, and
that if I didn't want it, then that means I
got to figure out my own life somewhere else. My
(04:40):
dad couldn't understand what my problem was, and in his mind,
he was asking for a very reasonable thing. He's like,
you would have gotten married at sixteen seventeen anyway, All
my siblings were married before they turned twenty, and often
in the arranged setting. To be very crass about it,
if you're younger, you get a better deal. In fact,
(05:00):
many people back then didn't understand what my problem was,
including women, including a lot of my aunts who were
arranged themselves. They were like, you know, he's going to
find a nice guy for you, Like why are you
fighting this so much?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
If you could articulate exactly what you were rejecting when
you were rejecting your father's decision to give you an
arranged marriage, what were you rejecting? What were you resisting?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
What my father was offering me was security, Like we
will place you in a situation where you will be secure,
and your baseline will be determined, like the floor is set.
But what I saw was that along with the floor,
the ceiling is set, because this family is now going
to decide what I can and cannot do. And I
(05:52):
remember thinking, I'm going to bet that I can do
better than whatever this is, Like, why do I need
somebody to set the ceiling for me? Why can't I
determine my own ceiling? I mean, I remember reading about
women who were lawyers and doctors and things, king like
why can't I be one of those people. I remember
(06:12):
reading in a lot of different places that life is
a gamble. You don't know how it's gonna work. I
remember thinking to myself that if life is a gamble,
I will gamble on myself.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
That's so beautifully said. I'm going to better myself, But.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I had no basis for it. Just so people know,
had no I had no business believing in myself.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, that that's a bad.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
As to lead anybody to believe that they should believe
in me, or me should believe in myself.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You said that you knew if you rejected your dad's
I was going to say advice, but it's not advice.
His proclamation of how things ought to happen, how things
were going to happen, you would need to find your
own way in your life. Tell me about what the
conversation looked like in which you said no, I don't
want this, and what followed.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I so clearly remember him saying I am done parenting.
I am done. So when he said, well, if you
don't want to do this, you can't live here anymore,
I think he thought, oh, well, she's going to go
to a friend's house for one night, and then she's
going to come back and reality will hit and then
we'll be back on track for his agenda. I think
(07:25):
what neither of us expected is how big headed both
of us were going to be about it. And I
certainly did not think that he would dig in his
heels as hard as he did. Like my extremely Western
oriented influenced mind, I was like, is he crazy? Like
why is this an issue? I'm just I'm home, I'm
(07:46):
doing my school work. Like I wasn't, Like even though
I was a rebellious kid, I wasn't creating problems for anybody. Yeah,
like people need to know, Like it's not because in America,
when a teen is rebellious, you're like assuming all these
like is she getting pregnant? I was reading the newspaper
exact like to me, it was like he has to
(08:07):
come around, like this cannot be my only option. But
it pretty much was in his eyes.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What was that period like? And how long did it last?
How did you survive outside of your home?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
You know, when you're a teenager and you have a
life full of friends, You're like, fine, I'll go stay
with my friend. We've been trying to do sleepovers for
the last year. And when I left, I left with
the mindset that this is gonna blow over and in
the meantime, I will stay with my friends and figure
it out. I think reality hit me when after two
(08:38):
days my best friend's mom said, I think you need
to go home. And that's when I was like, oh no,
Like where am I gonna go? Like what home? You know,
because I when I left, my dad was very clear
that you're not coming back here unless you're ready to
fall into line with the plan. And then it became
(08:58):
a story of like, let me try this friend, and
let me try this auntie, and who lives nearby and
who is a commutable distance and how am I going
to get there? Things that I had never worried about
until then.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah, were you ever fearful during this extended period because
at the time you thought it was a transient state, Right,
I'm going to be back in a couple of days.
But as the months and the years passed, what did
you feel being away from your family?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I was lonely. I was very consumed by like what
is happening? Like how did my life go so off
track in one day? I felt like no one is
ever going to understand what I want in life, like
nobody in India certainly. Yeah, I was trying. My sister,
who lived in Ohio, was trying to get me a visa.
(09:47):
I was trying to get myself a visa to come
to the US to study, because if I made it
to my sister's house, she was willing to take me
in and I would be safe and secure for a while.
But coming to America is not so easy as an Indian,
you know, as an Indian person, especially somebody with no
parents lobbying for them, no paperwork really, So even though
(10:09):
I had sent out all kinds of things into the
universe and my sister was trying, I didn't think it
was gonna happen. Nothing was materializing. I was so exhausted.
I feel like there's a part of that exhaustion that
will never leave my body. At that point, I had
exhausted every relative, every friend, every human being I knew
(10:31):
in Mumbai to take me in to host me. You know.
I was like, there's no endgame, Like he's won. So
when I went back, I was like, Okay, maybe I
should channelize my efforts into go with his plan. But
how to make it the best plan for me?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Okay, so optimize the suboptimal.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, like, maybe the guy is not as bad as
my brain is imagining him to. Maybe the circumstances can
be bettered than what they throw up. And the initial
negotiation of the arrangement, because there was just nothing left,
I had given up. I was like, this is it,
Like I can't fight this anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Absolutely, at some point you just stopped the resistance because
it's too tiring.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You just don't have an end game, Like there was nothing,
There was no door opening.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, Sasarn, I mean your story could have just sort
of ended there. But you secretly got a visa without
anyone knowing. You packed a bag, you picked up the visa,
you got on a plane, you're not staying with your sister.
And what's so interesting to me is that this counterfactual
life of which you knew so little. I'm going to
(11:44):
literally pack my bags move across the world with no
plan whatsoever, still felt like the better bet than the
one that your dad had paid for you. Yeah, so
tell me more about how you thought about that trade
off and where you found that fearlessness.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
You know, I'm telling you it was not fearlessness, it
was but desperation. I was surrounded by women who did
not understand be or my curiosity my whole life. They
didn't understand why I wanted to read a newspaper every day.
They didn't understand why I wanted to work, Like, why
would anybody want to be a lawyer when you can
be home and running a home. I realized that if
(12:24):
I get married in that setting, that's who I'm going
to become, because that's what that system creates. You could
see it, it could see it in all the women
around me. They were not unhappy women. Just to be clear,
they were affluent women. They had all the money in
the world to shop and eat out and all the
(12:45):
things that we would consider markers of a good life, right,
But I was a kid that hated shopping, like I
don't belong in that world. Even here, I remember always
being the one thinking, this feels like this whole thing
is not serving the women. It's serving somebody, It is
not serving them. Yeah. It was that that feeling of
(13:07):
keep me away from this that gave me courage to
pursue that other thing, like whatever that other thing was. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So then over the next three decades, you build this
really beautiful life in the US. Right, You go to college,
you marry your now husband, you work as an attorney,
and you become a stay at home mom to your
three kids. How in the world, Sarna did stand up comedy,
of all things, become a realistic career option.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
But it was not. I'm still not sure it is.
I tried and failed at so many things, like so
many things, like I was a matchmaker for a minute.
Was so bad, Oh my god, it was terrible. Matchmaking
is a whole job of just basically telling women it's
(13:58):
not too late. That's it. That's the whole job. Ninety
percent of it is that, I'm telling you, being honest.
I tried a cooking, a vegan chili business because I'm
vegetarian and trying to be always. I used to take
my kids for a lot of the things that I
was trying. One so they gave me courage, and two
because I wanted them to learn. I wanted them to
(14:18):
see that your mom is trying new things and it's okay,
and she might fail, and that's also okay.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
But my daughter, I think when she was with me
on many of these trips, started noticing. She's like, Mom,
you know. I think what turned it for her was
she saw a guy who bought my chili once because
we were talking for a long time, and then as
soon as I turned it around, he threw the chili away.
And I think it was an aha moment in my
(14:45):
daughter's mind that, like, he paid all that money because
he wanted to hear what she was saying. He had
no interest in the chili. It's her stories that are
the product. Then she started making notes like all their
kids have been hanging out at our house for years.
They're like, all these kids who have broken relationships or
(15:05):
bad grades or whatever, they love hanging out with my
mom because she's going to make them laugh about it,
and she's gonna make them feel better about it. My son,
who at the time was fourteen or fifteen, said to me, Mom,
when I tell my friends your stories, they stop dead
in their tracks. They want to hear more. Now these
(15:26):
are fifteen year old boys. They don't want to hear
about anything. Of all the people that you can try
to get attention from, try to get a fifteen year
old boy who's although I obsessed with sports, that happening.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
That's the true marker of success. That is the pressure test.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And then my daughter did this whole birthday gift experiment.
You know, she reached out to people I've known my
whole life and said, can you write a line or
two about my mom? It's for her birthday. I'm making
a gift. And she stuffed this whole water dispenser that
I had been wanting for my kitchen, and instead of
stuffing it with water and lemons and all that, she
(16:06):
stuffed it with notes from people about what they had
to say about me. And overwhelmingly the notes were like,
she's funny, She's hilarious. She made us laugh. That is
one thing I've had my whole life. People have always
said that I'm funny, and my whole life I was like, great,
of all the gifts that I could have gotten, I
(16:27):
got this funny. What are you doing with funny? Nothing? Useless?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Do you remember what your first jokes were about?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, of course. My first joke was about how I
came to America with nine dollars in my pocket. Ten
thousand in the bank, but nine in the pocket, because
there is truth to that. In my life. I came
to America as a broke teenager, It's true, but my
(16:58):
sister took me in in a big way and she
was living a good life. So in some way, I
relate to both sides of being an immigrant. I relate
to being that broke person who has nothing, but I've
also intimately seen the life where you come in and
work and get that American dream very quickly. Yeah, so
(17:20):
my life experience is actually the range.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Now.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
In New York, you know, we all go to charitable
events and people talk about where they give money and
the effects of that charity. Often in those rooms, I'm
the only one who received charity for many, many years
and then found a seat on the table. So when
I wrote that joke, I actually meant both sides of it,
(17:46):
And then I wrote a lot of jokes of my
mother in law. Oh my god, I remember. One of
the earliest jokes I remember was like, my mother in
law asked my husband because he brought me to meet her,
right we were not arranged. She was like, I got
you a jacket at Brooks Brothers for her. And it
feels so rude and grasp but it's like and then
(18:06):
I built it into how crazy she is, but we
all are. I probably will be about my son.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, so I'm not in denial about that. I want
to know. Did you feel at all constrained by having
an Indian heritage and being concerned about offending people, feeling
like certain categories were off limits.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
No? And I tell you why, because I have thought
about it. I've been penalized for being brutally honest my
whole life. In some way, I just don't know how
else to be like I don't the only other setting
is off Like me, I don't say anything. I just
don't have it in me to not observe what my
(18:46):
eyes are seeing and then talk about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I love that part of you, and I so resonate
with it. My Mom's always like, you know, there's things
you can choose not to share right, man to share? Yeah, exactly,
But I'm like, say it, but my factory settings are
to fully disclose every little thought I'm thinking all the time.
It dries my mom crazy because she's much more of
that discretion and privacy, and I've never known that setting.
(19:12):
In any case.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
The idea that this is our culture is entirely a
male construct, like men that I now have a thing
in my head, and I've taught my kids to do this.
If somebody says this is our culture, replace the word culture,
but this is how our men like it, because culture
was created by the men. The women didn't have any
say anyway. And then once you replace the words with
(19:36):
how men like it, it starts to look absurd, like
why do I care how they like it?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
One hundred percent? So your first experience with stand up
was an open mic night at a Mexican restaurant called
Plia Dettes. Okay, if you can travel back to the
moment when you are prepping for this set and you're
about to come out backstage, what was that experience?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Like? It was great. I no one expected it to
be anything.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well expectations that's great, Yes, my kids.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I was so irritated that my kids were making me
do this, So I was like, all right, fine, my
five friends will come and will whatever clap about the
mother in law being blah blah and whatever. Like. There
was no there was no anxiety because there was nothing
to lose.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, and you weren't worried that your jokes would fall
flat or that you know, you wouldn't get people to laugh.
That just wasn't a concern.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I've never heard it about that. Okay, I have a
reputation in the business. Some of the toughest jobs come
to me and I take them. My shows are filled
with kids who don't drink. Kids are very tough, but
I take them all in. I can handle it. I've
made kids laugh for twenty years as a mom. I
can do this. Yeah. I never like, I know what
(20:54):
it takes. I know, I just I've never questioned it.
I don't question it now.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
To your point, like the version of comedy you want
to do is actually the version that everybody loves, and
there is nothing more satisfying in the world than when
the authentic version is the thing that resonates most of people.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I think that what you're saying is so true and
people need to hear it because we spend so much
time becoming something that we think we need to be
that we don't spend enough time just acknowledging who we are.
And maybe there's a big space for that.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. I want to know what you feel. Comedy
(21:58):
offered you as a person that other things didn't.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Comedy saved me without a question. Comedy put food on
my table thirty years ago, when I didn't even know
it was a business.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
When you're trying to catch surf, you're saying, like to
invite yourself to these friends homes and stay other catches.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
People invited me in because they knew I will make
the dinner table fun. Who do we want? When you
plan a party? Who do you want? You want somebody
who's going to make the room light, make the room fun.
Who's gonna who's gonna make your other guests feel welcome?
Who's gonna make you feel relaxed. Comedy is a weapon.
It's an art, it's a it's a therapy, it's a medicine,
(22:37):
it's everything. Comedy gave me things before I even knew
it was giving it to me. Honestly, these are all
things I've realized upon reflection. I had no awareness of
it even five years ago, that that's what my life was.
A lot of comics say to me, They're like, where
did you come from? It's like you fell out of
the sky six years ago, And I'm like, I, it's true.
(23:00):
I stepped foot on a comedy stage six years ago.
Since then, I have two specials out into the world
on major streaming platforms. I have a book, I have
a how is this happening so fast? It's happening so
fast because I've had comedy in me my whole life. Yeah,
we just didn't do it on a stage.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Comedy was a way of life, and I've used it.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Like when I write, I write more material than any comic.
I know why, because it comes so naturally to me.
I can no CrowdWork for an hour and a half,
not a single written joke, and no problem.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It's I love that you say that, because I really
resonate in my own space. People say, oh, cognitive science
has fueled your love of humans. I say, no, no, no,
I am a cognitive scientist because I've been inherently fascinated
by other people's minds from the time I was a
little kid trying to crack open the nut, trying to
understand what lights people up, what gets them to feel fearful.
(23:57):
You know, I've been asking these questions since I was little.
That is what has led me to be a cognitive
scientist formally. But little Maya was a budding cognitive scientist
and the time she was so.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Taking it in and analyzing it your whole life. You know.
In Hindi, there's a very popular Hindi movie Silsilla. It
was a very popular and controversial love triangle back in
the day. In that movie, the wife asks the husband,
who has now discovered that the woman is in love
with another man. She asks him, how did you know?
And he he says in Hindi kayama kinzer, which means
(24:35):
the person who loves something, they look from a different
They look with an intensity that you cannot match when
there's no love there. Yeah, that's what you're describing. You're
trying to decode this from such a raw cerebral space
since your childhood that it's not it's not explainable to
(24:56):
normal people. It's not explainable in a way that academics
would be like oh you got an A plus in
this class. It's not about all those things. And I'm
like that in comedy we are definitely kindred spirits because
I didn't even know what a joke was when I
started writing like ten jokes a day.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, I heard that you or maybe read you literally
googled what is a joke? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And I didn't know what a cognitive scientist was when
I was growing up. I was like, what is this.
I don't know what this is.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, you just did it. There wasn't design. I mean
I certainly not in my case. I mean I fell
into it. I resisted it for the longest time.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Is there a moment that you can remember in the
last several years where you really felt vulnerable or there
was some pain associated with this whole trajectory.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Every day? Look, I today, I am the breadwinner in
my family. My husband lost his job during COVID, and
we live a very big life. We have three kids.
One just finished college, one is in college, and one
is going to high school. When the college tuition is due,
I have a panic attack that I'm going to pay
(26:03):
this by selling short tickets. Like what you know, it's
a tremendous responsibility to take, and aside from the financial responsible,
it's emotional responsibility because my husband is looking to me
for courage. We're both immigrants, we don't have anybody here
when he feels down and out, it's my trajectory is
(26:26):
giving him hope that he's going to find his way back.
My daughter now works with me, so I can't I
can't lose my cool around her because I need to
be strong for her. But privately, do I get anxiety
attacks all the time. One thing that I've done is
I've started scheduling my panic attacks, Like I'm so busy
(26:46):
that I've now said, okay, January second and lunchtime, I'm
going to panic about this thing because until then I
just need to get through this holiday slate of shows.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Oh my god, I cannot afford just today's interview fall
on a skettle panic attack day? Are we good?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Today? We're on a really good day because I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Not wonderful, wonderful, like do you know.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
What I mean? Like? Of course, I at that dark
places every day every day. I'm fifty years old. I
didn't know that I started comedy later in life until
I was on a news segment and somebody looked at
me and said, you started comedy late at life, and
I was like, I did, Like it didn't occur to
me until that point because I was so busy just going.
But I'm very laser focused in that way. When I
(27:31):
have a goal, that's all I'm chasing, Like I'm not
thinking about the noise around it. Single minded fact that
I remember coming home and thinking, Wow, I did start late,
and now what if I never make it? And what if?
You know, I'm in the entertainment business as a fifty
year old woman trying to sell a TV show and
a movie, and every day I get reminded that this
(27:54):
is it's gonna be a fight, all right.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I want more of these Zarna anti tips. Other than
scheduling your panic attacks, what else do you do to
manage that kind of existential worry.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
One is I learned to take a break and not quit.
You there will be a time where you're like, I
just cannot do this today, and everybody is gonna have
to understand whatever that this is. Yeah, because you're gonna
have an endless slate of there's always an episode to record,
there's always a person to meet. At some point, you're
gonna say to yourself today it is I'm just gonna
(28:27):
take a break and shut out the noise. And two,
I have really learned to find the joy in the
things that give me happiness. I used to think this
was like all white lady mumbo jumbo. Honestly right like
it feels a white lady mumbo jumbo. But I will
take my makeup off, I will go get my nails done.
I will pay for somebody to massage my back while
(28:50):
I'm getting my nails done. I will do whatever I
need to do with no I mean, and I know
they all look at me. I know they're judging me.
Especially our women judge each other the most.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Look. My family is tumble. There's no phrase in tumble
for self care. They eradicated that phrase from the dictionary.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Exactly. I have the same thing like, can I not
have my time now without apologizing to anybody? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
What has surprised you about the person that you've become
after being a professional comedian for all these years? Are
there new parts of your personality that have surfaced that
you weren't aware were there? Or new insecurities, vulnerabilities, really anything.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'll tell you, and it's gonna sound very arrogant, but
I'm gonna say it's okay. Be honest. I'm a pretty
freaking phenomenal business woman, and I can see that coming.
I've been obsessed with entrepreneurship my whole life. I've been
reading entrepreneurship books. My whole childhood was Fortune magazine, Forbes magazine.
(29:54):
What color is your parachute? You name it. I've done
the self help, the business this, how he started this company,
how that company went bankrupt. I've read it all. Yeah,
But until I became my own entrepreneurial owner, I didn't
realize how good I would be at it. My instincts
are so good. I can tell you, like with one
(30:16):
eye close, which decision makes sense and which will not
lead to money.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I love that you share that reflection, because the whole
thesis of my book, The Other Side of Change, is
that going through the change process is involves some element
of revelation about these hidden superpowers that were just not
on display before that we didn't know we have. And
you just perfectly articulated that you discovered a new superpower
(30:43):
in yourself as a result of going through this change.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I mean, I am very surprised, but I'll be honest
with you, because I'm when the words sometimes in business
meetings come out of my mouth, I'm surprised I'm saying
these things. There are times when somebody will make a
crazy ask and I'll be like, look, I would do it,
but it's not right for my business, and I'm shocked,
like I'm an auntie. How did I undo forty years
(31:08):
of saying yes to everything? But I did for my business,
which is now my new baby. Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
So you've established over the course of your life that
you are a risk taker, right. You defied your domineering father,
you disrupted an arranged marriage, you fled your home country.
You literally became a stand up comedian during a pandemic,
which is most people's biggest fear. I think what I'm
(31:37):
hearing from you is that you have a high tolerance
for failure. You're comfortable with discomfort on a daily basis.
Just hearing you talk about the daily anxieties that you
go through. What advice would you have for people who
want to start some new enterprise of some kind. They're
not going to become Zarna, fine, but maybe they.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Want to take up something better than Sara. Why maybe better?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Fine? The star your What advice would you have for
people who might not have the genetic gift of fearlessness
that you have, who want to take that leap.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Okay, do not lean on your genetics because they have
not served many of us well, like all our medical
doctors will tell you these South Asian genetics especially, Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
So forget the genetics. I will give you the framework.
I will give you a statistical reason why you should
take chances and not worry about failure. The more chances
(32:29):
you take, the more you increase your surface area and
probability of succeeding. The failures will not matter in the end. Yeah,
in the end, all the failures are like the tasting
spoons of life. You know, when you're making a soup,
you taste it twenty times.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Absolutely, you just have to.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Get it perfect by the end, and it will happen
if you keep tasting enough, if you stand there with diligence,
and if you focus on what you're doing and don't
worry so much. Seek comfort in knowing that people are
so self obsessed today that nobody has time to judge
you and me. There was a time when what will
your aunt say and what will your Today, everybody is
(33:09):
obsessed with their own lives absolutely, which is liberating for
those of us who want to take chances. I opened
and closed fifteen businesses. None of my friends even realized.
They were like, oh, you also tried this, and I
was like, yeah, it didn't really work out, And that
was the extent of the conversation. And anybody who doesn't
understand your journey doesn't belong in your life anyway. You
(33:33):
don't owe an explanation to people who only want to
see you succeed. If they're not comfortable with comforting you
when you're failing, they're not comfortable with watching you fail.
They need to be out of your life anyway.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You talked about betting on yourself, So for all of
those who are listening, what advice do you have for
people who are maybe lacking the courage or confidence to
take that bet because there's so much unknown and so
much uncertainty on the other side, and they crave control,
they crave the security of the known path.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Right. I get that, And as a parent and a
spouse and with a lot of household responsibility, I for
one hundred percent get it. But I would say to
them that courage is a learned behavior. A lot of
people say I just don't have it in me, as
if other people just got it and they didn't. It's
not like that. You can learn courage the way you
(34:26):
learned to walk. Like baby steps will get you somewhere.
It may not take you all the way. It may
take you beyond where you want to go. But stop
saying to yourself I'm too scared. Stop the negative self
talk and reframe it and be like, what is the smallest,
lightest lift I can make in the direction that I
want to go? I tell my friends this all the time.
(34:49):
What is the lightest lift you can imagine that that
gets you half a foot into that direction? And let's
start with that one day at a time. I say
to myself every day when I wake up, nothing and
nobody will stop me. It's how I give myself courage.
Nobody gave it to me. I have to give it
to me. But because say it to myself enough, I
(35:11):
start believing it by the end of the day. So
my advice to everybody is to stop thinking do I
have it? Do I not have it? We all have it?
Are you going to tap into it? Is the question?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Hey, thanks so much? For listening. I love sharing our
incredible Slight Change guests with you. This year, we're taking
a break for the holidays, but we'll be back in
the new year with a whole slate of new episodes
for you as olays. We'll have stories of personal transformation
and experts with insights to help us through the biggest
changes life throws our way. The best thing you can
(36:08):
do to support us in the meantime is to follow
the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you've already
done that, try to leave a review, share an episode
with a friend, or, better yet, make a playlist of
your favorite Slight Change episodes as a gift for your
friends during their upcoming holiday travel. It'll help more people
find the show. For more from me, you can follow
(36:30):
me on Instagram at doctor Mayah Shunker. I'll be sharing
lots of updates about my new book, The Other Side
of Change, where I profile people you've never heard from
on the show and share new scientific insights for navigating change.
Thank you for all of your support and all of
the incredible messages you've shared with me and the team
this year. I'll see you in twenty twenty six. A
(36:53):
Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced
by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our
showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our
producers Brittany Cronin and Megan Luvin, and our sound engine
near Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song,
and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change
(37:16):
of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big
thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special
thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change
of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.
Pushkin hay Slight Changers. I can't believe I get to
say this, but Brenee Brown is launching my new book,
(00:36):
The Other Side of Change into the World. Join me
for an exclusive virtual conversation with Brene on the eve
of my book launch, January twelfth, at eight pm Eastern.
Brene's work has shaped my understanding of resilience, and I'm
delighted that she believes in this book as much as
I do. You can register for the event at the
(00:57):
link in the show notes or at changewithmaya dot com
slash launch. The event is open to anyone who has
pre ordered the book from any retailer in the US.
Are limited and registration closes on December fourteenth, so sign
up soon, and if you can't make the event live,
don't worry, a recording will be sent to everyone who
(01:19):
signs up. I can't wait to see you there. Okay,
Now onto Zarna Garg.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
People have always said that I'm funny. That is one
thing I've had my whole life, and my whole life,
I was a great. Of all the gifts that I
could have gotten, I got this funny. What are you doing? Funny? Nothing?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
When Zarna garg was growing up in Mumbai, her ability
to make people laugh didn't register as a valuable skill,
but today she is one of the most in demand
comedians in America. She's open for people like Amy Poehler
and Tina Fey, and has starred in two solo comedy specials.
Zarna first step foot on a comedy stage when she
(02:02):
was forty four years old, and she's quickly become known
for her irreverence style.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
A little about me. I'm an immigrant. I'm here to
take your jobs. Wat job, Jerry Seinfeld.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
But she doesn't just take risks on stage. What's defined
her success in life is a high tolerance for discomfort
and a steadfast trust in her own instincts.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Courage is a learned behavior. Nobody gave it to me.
I have to give it to me. A lot of
people say I just don't have it in me, as
if other people just got it and they didn't. It's
not like that. You can learn courage the way you
learned to walk.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
On Today's show, why It's never too late to bet
on yourself. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior,
and this is a slight change of plans a show
about who we are and who we become in the
face of a big change. I first encountered Zarna while
(03:19):
scrolling YouTube one day and instantly found her both relatable
and hilarious.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Everywhere you know. My eleven year old son came home
from school the other day and he goes, mom, my, teth.
School has asked me to declare my pronouns. What should
I say? I said, you tell them you are Indian.
Your pronoun is doctor.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
But I didn't know much about her personal story and
how exactly she scaled comedy heights until I read her
best selling memoir, This American Woman. As I would come
to learn, Zarna's courage to determine her own path was
a reaction to a life she knew she didn't want.
Zarna grew up in India in the nineteen eighties in
(04:01):
a well to do family. Things were comfortable, but she
always felt that her rebellious, outspoken personality type ran against
the cultural norms in her family. Things came to a
head when she was fourteen and her dad told her
it was time for an arranged marriage.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I just didn't want it. Look I thought I had
the choice. I assumed that I'm being asked do I
want to do it? So that was the first big
wake up call that no one was asking me. I
was being told that this is what we're doing, and
that if I didn't want it, then that means I
got to figure out my own life somewhere else. My
(04:40):
dad couldn't understand what my problem was, and in his mind,
he was asking for a very reasonable thing. He's like,
you would have gotten married at sixteen seventeen anyway, All
my siblings were married before they turned twenty, and often
in the arranged setting. To be very crass about it,
if you're younger, you get a better deal. In fact,
(05:00):
many people back then didn't understand what my problem was,
including women, including a lot of my aunts who were
arranged themselves. They were like, you know, he's going to
find a nice guy for you, Like why are you
fighting this so much?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
If you could articulate exactly what you were rejecting when
you were rejecting your father's decision to give you an
arranged marriage, what were you rejecting? What were you resisting?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
What my father was offering me was security, Like we
will place you in a situation where you will be secure,
and your baseline will be determined, like the floor is set.
But what I saw was that along with the floor,
the ceiling is set, because this family is now going
to decide what I can and cannot do. And I
(05:52):
remember thinking, I'm going to bet that I can do
better than whatever this is, Like, why do I need
somebody to set the ceiling for me? Why can't I
determine my own ceiling? I mean, I remember reading about
women who were lawyers and doctors and things, king like
why can't I be one of those people. I remember
(06:12):
reading in a lot of different places that life is
a gamble. You don't know how it's gonna work. I
remember thinking to myself that if life is a gamble,
I will gamble on myself.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
That's so beautifully said. I'm going to better myself, But.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I had no basis for it. Just so people know,
had no I had no business believing in myself.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, that that's a bad.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
As to lead anybody to believe that they should believe
in me, or me should believe in myself.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You said that you knew if you rejected your dad's
I was going to say advice, but it's not advice.
His proclamation of how things ought to happen, how things
were going to happen, you would need to find your
own way in your life. Tell me about what the
conversation looked like in which you said no, I don't
want this, and what followed.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I so clearly remember him saying I am done parenting.
I am done. So when he said, well, if you
don't want to do this, you can't live here anymore,
I think he thought, oh, well, she's going to go
to a friend's house for one night, and then she's
going to come back and reality will hit and then
we'll be back on track for his agenda. I think
(07:25):
what neither of us expected is how big headed both
of us were going to be about it. And I
certainly did not think that he would dig in his
heels as hard as he did. Like my extremely Western
oriented influenced mind, I was like, is he crazy? Like
why is this an issue? I'm just I'm home, I'm
(07:46):
doing my school work. Like I wasn't, Like even though
I was a rebellious kid, I wasn't creating problems for anybody. Yeah,
like people need to know, Like it's not because in America,
when a teen is rebellious, you're like assuming all these
like is she getting pregnant? I was reading the newspaper
exact like to me, it was like he has to
(08:07):
come around, like this cannot be my only option. But
it pretty much was in his eyes.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What was that period like? And how long did it last?
How did you survive outside of your home?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
You know, when you're a teenager and you have a
life full of friends, You're like, fine, I'll go stay
with my friend. We've been trying to do sleepovers for
the last year. And when I left, I left with
the mindset that this is gonna blow over and in
the meantime, I will stay with my friends and figure
it out. I think reality hit me when after two
(08:38):
days my best friend's mom said, I think you need
to go home. And that's when I was like, oh no,
Like where am I gonna go? Like what home? You know,
because I when I left, my dad was very clear
that you're not coming back here unless you're ready to
fall into line with the plan. And then it became
(08:58):
a story of like, let me try this friend, and
let me try this auntie, and who lives nearby and
who is a commutable distance and how am I going
to get there? Things that I had never worried about
until then.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah, were you ever fearful during this extended period because
at the time you thought it was a transient state, Right,
I'm going to be back in a couple of days.
But as the months and the years passed, what did
you feel being away from your family?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I was lonely. I was very consumed by like what
is happening? Like how did my life go so off
track in one day? I felt like no one is
ever going to understand what I want in life, like
nobody in India certainly. Yeah, I was trying. My sister,
who lived in Ohio, was trying to get me a visa.
(09:47):
I was trying to get myself a visa to come
to the US to study, because if I made it
to my sister's house, she was willing to take me
in and I would be safe and secure for a while.
But coming to America is not so easy as an Indian,
you know, as an Indian person, especially somebody with no
parents lobbying for them, no paperwork really, So even though
(10:09):
I had sent out all kinds of things into the
universe and my sister was trying, I didn't think it
was gonna happen. Nothing was materializing. I was so exhausted.
I feel like there's a part of that exhaustion that
will never leave my body. At that point, I had
exhausted every relative, every friend, every human being I knew
(10:31):
in Mumbai to take me in to host me. You know.
I was like, there's no endgame, Like he's won. So
when I went back, I was like, Okay, maybe I
should channelize my efforts into go with his plan. But
how to make it the best plan for me?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Okay, so optimize the suboptimal.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, like, maybe the guy is not as bad as
my brain is imagining him to. Maybe the circumstances can
be bettered than what they throw up. And the initial
negotiation of the arrangement, because there was just nothing left,
I had given up. I was like, this is it,
Like I can't fight this anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Absolutely, at some point you just stopped the resistance because
it's too tiring.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You just don't have an end game, Like there was nothing,
There was no door opening.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, Sasarn, I mean your story could have just sort
of ended there. But you secretly got a visa without
anyone knowing. You packed a bag, you picked up the visa,
you got on a plane, you're not staying with your sister.
And what's so interesting to me is that this counterfactual
life of which you knew so little. I'm going to
(11:44):
literally pack my bags move across the world with no
plan whatsoever, still felt like the better bet than the
one that your dad had paid for you. Yeah, so
tell me more about how you thought about that trade
off and where you found that fearlessness.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
You know, I'm telling you it was not fearlessness, it
was but desperation. I was surrounded by women who did
not understand be or my curiosity my whole life. They
didn't understand why I wanted to read a newspaper every day.
They didn't understand why I wanted to work, Like, why
would anybody want to be a lawyer when you can
be home and running a home. I realized that if
(12:24):
I get married in that setting, that's who I'm going
to become, because that's what that system creates. You could
see it, it could see it in all the women
around me. They were not unhappy women. Just to be clear,
they were affluent women. They had all the money in
the world to shop and eat out and all the
(12:45):
things that we would consider markers of a good life, right,
But I was a kid that hated shopping, like I
don't belong in that world. Even here, I remember always
being the one thinking, this feels like this whole thing
is not serving the women. It's serving somebody, It is
not serving them. Yeah. It was that that feeling of
(13:07):
keep me away from this that gave me courage to
pursue that other thing, like whatever that other thing was. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So then over the next three decades, you build this
really beautiful life in the US. Right, You go to college,
you marry your now husband, you work as an attorney,
and you become a stay at home mom to your
three kids. How in the world, Sarna did stand up comedy,
of all things, become a realistic career option.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
But it was not. I'm still not sure it is.
I tried and failed at so many things, like so
many things, like I was a matchmaker for a minute.
Was so bad, Oh my god, it was terrible. Matchmaking
is a whole job of just basically telling women it's
(13:58):
not too late. That's it. That's the whole job. Ninety
percent of it is that, I'm telling you, being honest.
I tried a cooking, a vegan chili business because I'm
vegetarian and trying to be always. I used to take
my kids for a lot of the things that I
was trying. One so they gave me courage, and two
because I wanted them to learn. I wanted them to
(14:18):
see that your mom is trying new things and it's okay,
and she might fail, and that's also okay.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
But my daughter, I think when she was with me
on many of these trips, started noticing. She's like, Mom,
you know. I think what turned it for her was
she saw a guy who bought my chili once because
we were talking for a long time, and then as
soon as I turned it around, he threw the chili away.
And I think it was an aha moment in my
(14:45):
daughter's mind that, like, he paid all that money because
he wanted to hear what she was saying. He had
no interest in the chili. It's her stories that are
the product. Then she started making notes like all their
kids have been hanging out at our house for years.
They're like, all these kids who have broken relationships or
(15:05):
bad grades or whatever, they love hanging out with my
mom because she's going to make them laugh about it,
and she's gonna make them feel better about it. My son,
who at the time was fourteen or fifteen, said to me, Mom,
when I tell my friends your stories, they stop dead
in their tracks. They want to hear more. Now these
(15:26):
are fifteen year old boys. They don't want to hear
about anything. Of all the people that you can try
to get attention from, try to get a fifteen year
old boy who's although I obsessed with sports, that happening.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
That's the true marker of success. That is the pressure test.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And then my daughter did this whole birthday gift experiment.
You know, she reached out to people I've known my
whole life and said, can you write a line or
two about my mom? It's for her birthday. I'm making
a gift. And she stuffed this whole water dispenser that
I had been wanting for my kitchen, and instead of
stuffing it with water and lemons and all that, she
(16:06):
stuffed it with notes from people about what they had
to say about me. And overwhelmingly the notes were like,
she's funny, She's hilarious. She made us laugh. That is
one thing I've had my whole life. People have always
said that I'm funny, and my whole life I was like, great,
of all the gifts that I could have gotten, I
(16:27):
got this funny. What are you doing with funny? Nothing? Useless?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Do you remember what your first jokes were about?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, of course. My first joke was about how I
came to America with nine dollars in my pocket. Ten
thousand in the bank, but nine in the pocket, because
there is truth to that. In my life. I came
to America as a broke teenager, It's true, but my
(16:58):
sister took me in in a big way and she
was living a good life. So in some way, I
relate to both sides of being an immigrant. I relate
to being that broke person who has nothing, but I've
also intimately seen the life where you come in and
work and get that American dream very quickly. Yeah, so
(17:20):
my life experience is actually the range.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Now.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
In New York, you know, we all go to charitable
events and people talk about where they give money and
the effects of that charity. Often in those rooms, I'm
the only one who received charity for many, many years
and then found a seat on the table. So when
I wrote that joke, I actually meant both sides of it,
(17:46):
And then I wrote a lot of jokes of my
mother in law. Oh my god, I remember. One of
the earliest jokes I remember was like, my mother in
law asked my husband because he brought me to meet her,
right we were not arranged. She was like, I got
you a jacket at Brooks Brothers for her. And it
feels so rude and grasp but it's like and then
(18:06):
I built it into how crazy she is, but we
all are. I probably will be about my son.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, so I'm not in denial about that. I want
to know. Did you feel at all constrained by having
an Indian heritage and being concerned about offending people, feeling
like certain categories were off limits.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
No? And I tell you why, because I have thought
about it. I've been penalized for being brutally honest my
whole life. In some way, I just don't know how
else to be like I don't the only other setting
is off Like me, I don't say anything. I just
don't have it in me to not observe what my
(18:46):
eyes are seeing and then talk about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I love that part of you, and I so resonate
with it. My Mom's always like, you know, there's things
you can choose not to share right, man to share? Yeah, exactly,
But I'm like, say it, but my factory settings are
to fully disclose every little thought I'm thinking all the time.
It dries my mom crazy because she's much more of
that discretion and privacy, and I've never known that setting.
(19:12):
In any case.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
The idea that this is our culture is entirely a
male construct, like men that I now have a thing
in my head, and I've taught my kids to do this.
If somebody says this is our culture, replace the word culture,
but this is how our men like it, because culture
was created by the men. The women didn't have any
say anyway. And then once you replace the words with
(19:36):
how men like it, it starts to look absurd, like
why do I care how they like it?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
One hundred percent? So your first experience with stand up
was an open mic night at a Mexican restaurant called
Plia Dettes. Okay, if you can travel back to the
moment when you are prepping for this set and you're
about to come out backstage, what was that experience?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Like? It was great. I no one expected it to
be anything.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well expectations that's great, Yes, my kids.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I was so irritated that my kids were making me
do this, So I was like, all right, fine, my
five friends will come and will whatever clap about the
mother in law being blah blah and whatever. Like. There
was no there was no anxiety because there was nothing
to lose.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, and you weren't worried that your jokes would fall
flat or that you know, you wouldn't get people to laugh.
That just wasn't a concern.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I've never heard it about that. Okay, I have a
reputation in the business. Some of the toughest jobs come
to me and I take them. My shows are filled
with kids who don't drink. Kids are very tough, but
I take them all in. I can handle it. I've
made kids laugh for twenty years as a mom. I
can do this. Yeah. I never like, I know what
(20:54):
it takes. I know, I just I've never questioned it.
I don't question it now.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
To your point, like the version of comedy you want
to do is actually the version that everybody loves, and
there is nothing more satisfying in the world than when
the authentic version is the thing that resonates most of people.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I think that what you're saying is so true and
people need to hear it because we spend so much
time becoming something that we think we need to be
that we don't spend enough time just acknowledging who we are.
And maybe there's a big space for that.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
of plans. I want to know what you feel. Comedy
(21:58):
offered you as a person that other things didn't.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Comedy saved me without a question. Comedy put food on
my table thirty years ago, when I didn't even know
it was a business.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
When you're trying to catch surf, you're saying, like to
invite yourself to these friends homes and stay other catches.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
People invited me in because they knew I will make
the dinner table fun. Who do we want? When you
plan a party? Who do you want? You want somebody
who's going to make the room light, make the room fun.
Who's gonna who's gonna make your other guests feel welcome?
Who's gonna make you feel relaxed. Comedy is a weapon.
It's an art, it's a it's a therapy, it's a medicine,
(22:37):
it's everything. Comedy gave me things before I even knew
it was giving it to me. Honestly, these are all
things I've realized upon reflection. I had no awareness of
it even five years ago, that that's what my life was.
A lot of comics say to me, They're like, where
did you come from? It's like you fell out of
the sky six years ago, And I'm like, I, it's true.
(23:00):
I stepped foot on a comedy stage six years ago.
Since then, I have two specials out into the world
on major streaming platforms. I have a book, I have
a how is this happening so fast? It's happening so
fast because I've had comedy in me my whole life. Yeah,
we just didn't do it on a stage.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Comedy was a way of life, and I've used it.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Like when I write, I write more material than any comic.
I know why, because it comes so naturally to me.
I can no CrowdWork for an hour and a half,
not a single written joke, and no problem.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It's I love that you say that, because I really
resonate in my own space. People say, oh, cognitive science
has fueled your love of humans. I say, no, no, no,
I am a cognitive scientist because I've been inherently fascinated
by other people's minds from the time I was a
little kid trying to crack open the nut, trying to
understand what lights people up, what gets them to feel fearful.
(23:57):
You know, I've been asking these questions since I was little.
That is what has led me to be a cognitive
scientist formally. But little Maya was a budding cognitive scientist
and the time she was so.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Taking it in and analyzing it your whole life. You know.
In Hindi, there's a very popular Hindi movie Silsilla. It
was a very popular and controversial love triangle back in
the day. In that movie, the wife asks the husband,
who has now discovered that the woman is in love
with another man. She asks him, how did you know?
And he he says in Hindi kayama kinzer, which means
(24:35):
the person who loves something, they look from a different
They look with an intensity that you cannot match when
there's no love there. Yeah, that's what you're describing. You're
trying to decode this from such a raw cerebral space
since your childhood that it's not it's not explainable to
(24:56):
normal people. It's not explainable in a way that academics
would be like oh you got an A plus in
this class. It's not about all those things. And I'm
like that in comedy we are definitely kindred spirits because
I didn't even know what a joke was when I
started writing like ten jokes a day.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, I heard that you or maybe read you literally
googled what is a joke? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And I didn't know what a cognitive scientist was when
I was growing up. I was like, what is this.
I don't know what this is.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, you just did it. There wasn't design. I mean
I certainly not in my case. I mean I fell
into it. I resisted it for the longest time.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Is there a moment that you can remember in the
last several years where you really felt vulnerable or there
was some pain associated with this whole trajectory.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Every day? Look, I today, I am the breadwinner in
my family. My husband lost his job during COVID, and
we live a very big life. We have three kids.
One just finished college, one is in college, and one
is going to high school. When the college tuition is due,
I have a panic attack that I'm going to pay
(26:03):
this by selling short tickets. Like what you know, it's
a tremendous responsibility to take, and aside from the financial responsible,
it's emotional responsibility because my husband is looking to me
for courage. We're both immigrants, we don't have anybody here
when he feels down and out, it's my trajectory is
(26:26):
giving him hope that he's going to find his way back.
My daughter now works with me, so I can't I
can't lose my cool around her because I need to
be strong for her. But privately, do I get anxiety
attacks all the time. One thing that I've done is
I've started scheduling my panic attacks, Like I'm so busy
(26:46):
that I've now said, okay, January second and lunchtime, I'm
going to panic about this thing because until then I
just need to get through this holiday slate of shows.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Oh my god, I cannot afford just today's interview fall
on a skettle panic attack day? Are we good?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Today? We're on a really good day because I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Not wonderful, wonderful, like do you know.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
What I mean? Like? Of course, I at that dark
places every day every day. I'm fifty years old. I
didn't know that I started comedy later in life until
I was on a news segment and somebody looked at
me and said, you started comedy late at life, and
I was like, I did, Like it didn't occur to
me until that point because I was so busy just going.
But I'm very laser focused in that way. When I
(27:31):
have a goal, that's all I'm chasing, Like I'm not
thinking about the noise around it. Single minded fact that
I remember coming home and thinking, Wow, I did start late,
and now what if I never make it? And what if?
You know, I'm in the entertainment business as a fifty
year old woman trying to sell a TV show and
a movie, and every day I get reminded that this
(27:54):
is it's gonna be a fight, all right.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I want more of these Zarna anti tips. Other than
scheduling your panic attacks, what else do you do to
manage that kind of existential worry.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
One is I learned to take a break and not quit.
You there will be a time where you're like, I
just cannot do this today, and everybody is gonna have
to understand whatever that this is. Yeah, because you're gonna
have an endless slate of there's always an episode to record,
there's always a person to meet. At some point, you're
gonna say to yourself today it is I'm just gonna
(28:27):
take a break and shut out the noise. And two,
I have really learned to find the joy in the
things that give me happiness. I used to think this
was like all white lady mumbo jumbo. Honestly right like
it feels a white lady mumbo jumbo. But I will
take my makeup off, I will go get my nails done.
I will pay for somebody to massage my back while
(28:50):
I'm getting my nails done. I will do whatever I
need to do with no I mean, and I know
they all look at me. I know they're judging me.
Especially our women judge each other the most.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Look. My family is tumble. There's no phrase in tumble
for self care. They eradicated that phrase from the dictionary.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Exactly. I have the same thing like, can I not
have my time now without apologizing to anybody? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
What has surprised you about the person that you've become
after being a professional comedian for all these years? Are
there new parts of your personality that have surfaced that
you weren't aware were there? Or new insecurities, vulnerabilities, really anything.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'll tell you, and it's gonna sound very arrogant, but
I'm gonna say it's okay. Be honest. I'm a pretty
freaking phenomenal business woman, and I can see that coming.
I've been obsessed with entrepreneurship my whole life. I've been
reading entrepreneurship books. My whole childhood was Fortune magazine, Forbes magazine.
(29:54):
What color is your parachute? You name it. I've done
the self help, the business this, how he started this company,
how that company went bankrupt. I've read it all. Yeah,
But until I became my own entrepreneurial owner, I didn't
realize how good I would be at it. My instincts
are so good. I can tell you, like with one
(30:16):
eye close, which decision makes sense and which will not
lead to money.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I love that you share that reflection, because the whole
thesis of my book, The Other Side of Change, is
that going through the change process is involves some element
of revelation about these hidden superpowers that were just not
on display before that we didn't know we have. And
you just perfectly articulated that you discovered a new superpower
(30:43):
in yourself as a result of going through this change.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I mean, I am very surprised, but I'll be honest
with you, because I'm when the words sometimes in business
meetings come out of my mouth, I'm surprised I'm saying
these things. There are times when somebody will make a
crazy ask and I'll be like, look, I would do it,
but it's not right for my business, and I'm shocked,
like I'm an auntie. How did I undo forty years
(31:08):
of saying yes to everything? But I did for my business,
which is now my new baby. Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
So you've established over the course of your life that
you are a risk taker, right. You defied your domineering father,
you disrupted an arranged marriage, you fled your home country.
You literally became a stand up comedian during a pandemic,
which is most people's biggest fear. I think what I'm
(31:37):
hearing from you is that you have a high tolerance
for failure. You're comfortable with discomfort on a daily basis.
Just hearing you talk about the daily anxieties that you
go through. What advice would you have for people who
want to start some new enterprise of some kind. They're
not going to become Zarna, fine, but maybe they.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Want to take up something better than Sara. Why maybe better?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Fine? The star your What advice would you have for
people who might not have the genetic gift of fearlessness
that you have, who want to take that leap.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Okay, do not lean on your genetics because they have
not served many of us well, like all our medical
doctors will tell you these South Asian genetics especially, Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
So forget the genetics. I will give you the framework.
I will give you a statistical reason why you should
take chances and not worry about failure. The more chances
(32:29):
you take, the more you increase your surface area and
probability of succeeding. The failures will not matter in the end. Yeah,
in the end, all the failures are like the tasting
spoons of life. You know, when you're making a soup,
you taste it twenty times.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Absolutely, you just have to.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Get it perfect by the end, and it will happen
if you keep tasting enough, if you stand there with diligence,
and if you focus on what you're doing and don't
worry so much. Seek comfort in knowing that people are
so self obsessed today that nobody has time to judge
you and me. There was a time when what will
your aunt say and what will your Today, everybody is
(33:09):
obsessed with their own lives absolutely, which is liberating for
those of us who want to take chances. I opened
and closed fifteen businesses. None of my friends even realized.
They were like, oh, you also tried this, and I
was like, yeah, it didn't really work out, And that
was the extent of the conversation. And anybody who doesn't
understand your journey doesn't belong in your life anyway. You
(33:33):
don't owe an explanation to people who only want to
see you succeed. If they're not comfortable with comforting you
when you're failing, they're not comfortable with watching you fail.
They need to be out of your life anyway.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You talked about betting on yourself, So for all of
those who are listening, what advice do you have for
people who are maybe lacking the courage or confidence to
take that bet because there's so much unknown and so
much uncertainty on the other side, and they crave control,
they crave the security of the known path.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Right. I get that, And as a parent and a
spouse and with a lot of household responsibility, I for
one hundred percent get it. But I would say to
them that courage is a learned behavior. A lot of
people say I just don't have it in me, as
if other people just got it and they didn't. It's
not like that. You can learn courage the way you
(34:26):
learned to walk. Like baby steps will get you somewhere.
It may not take you all the way. It may
take you beyond where you want to go. But stop
saying to yourself I'm too scared. Stop the negative self
talk and reframe it and be like, what is the smallest,
lightest lift I can make in the direction that I
want to go? I tell my friends this all the time.
(34:49):
What is the lightest lift you can imagine that that
gets you half a foot into that direction? And let's
start with that one day at a time. I say
to myself every day when I wake up, nothing and
nobody will stop me. It's how I give myself courage.
Nobody gave it to me. I have to give it
to me. But because say it to myself enough, I
(35:11):
start believing it by the end of the day. So
my advice to everybody is to stop thinking do I
have it? Do I not have it? We all have it?
Are you going to tap into it? Is the question?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Hey, thanks so much? For listening. I love sharing our
incredible Slight Change guests with you. This year, we're taking
a break for the holidays, but we'll be back in
the new year with a whole slate of new episodes
for you as olays. We'll have stories of personal transformation
and experts with insights to help us through the biggest
changes life throws our way. The best thing you can
(36:08):
do to support us in the meantime is to follow
the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you've already
done that, try to leave a review, share an episode
with a friend, or, better yet, make a playlist of
your favorite Slight Change episodes as a gift for your
friends during their upcoming holiday travel. It'll help more people
find the show. For more from me, you can follow
(36:30):
me on Instagram at doctor Mayah Shunker. I'll be sharing
lots of updates about my new book, The Other Side
of Change, where I profile people you've never heard from
on the show and share new scientific insights for navigating change.
Thank you for all of your support and all of
the incredible messages you've shared with me and the team
this year. I'll see you in twenty twenty six. A
(36:53):
Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced
by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our
showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our
producers Brittany Cronin and Megan Luvin, and our sound engine
near Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song,
and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change
(37:16):
of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big
thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special
thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change
of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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