Babyface

Kenny “Babyface” Edmonds is a pillar of contemporary R&B. As a producer and songwriter, Babyface’s discography includes hits for powerhouse vocalists like Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston, Beyonce, Ariana Grande, and Stevie Wonder.

Although Babyface’s career is most often associated with pop hits, he started writing songs in the singer/songwriter tradition, pulling influence from James Taylor and The Beatles.

On today’s episode Justin Richmond talks to Babyface about the childhood crushes he had that continue to inspire his songwriting today. He also plays a song he wrote in high school that he considers one of the best songs he's ever written. And he reveals how he was on the verge of making new music with Whitney Houston a month before she died.

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite Babyface songs HERE.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin, Kenny, Babyface, Edmunds is a pillar of R and B.
His discography is vast and varied, and in my opinion,
he's one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And
as a producer, he knows how to get the most
natural vocal performances from the best singers. I'm talking powerhouse

(00:39):
vocalists like Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston, Beyonce, Ariana Grande, and
Stevie Wonder. As a label owner, Babyface created the Face
Records in the late eighties with famed record exec La Reid. Together,
they went on to release classic albums from Outcast, TLC
and Usher, among others. Although Babyface's career is most often

(01:00):
associated with pop and R and B hits, he started
writing songs in the singer songwriter tradition, pulling from influences
as surprising as James Taylor in The Beatles. He taught
himself guitar in sixth grade and started writing songs about
young love and heartbreak. Many of those experiences served as
inspiration for the hundreds of songs he's written since. On

(01:23):
today's episode, I talked to Babyface about those early childhood memories,
and he plays a song he wrote in high school
that he considers to be the best song he's ever written,
and it's never been released. He also talks about how
Bootsy Collins christened him Babyface and how his nickname made
female fans flock to him at the end of shows.

(01:44):
He also reveals how he was on the verge of
making a new album with Whitney Houston just a month
before she died. This is broken record liner notes for
the Digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my conversation with
the Babyface from the Village Studios in La. How long
you've been playing guitar?

Speaker 2 (02:05):
I started playing when I was in sixth grade, picked
it up. It was my most my brother's guitar, but
it was he had a little a band that he
was saying, and so the guitar player let him music
acoustic guitar. Brought it to the house and told us
not to touch it.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Out of that gos, I touched it. Anytime you tell
someone don't touch So it's a long time to do
with my kids. Don't touch the panel, don't touch the guitar.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, don't ever, that's a good idea.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
How impactful you your older brothers on your music sensibility.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
One brother in particular, Melvin, He was impactful in the
sense that he brought in that guitar. He also was
in a band Caught the Soul Innovations, and he was
like the front man, and it was it was just
incredible to watching him. He had a great voice, and
I think that's that clearly made me think that maybe

(03:03):
I could do something like that. You know, yeah, I
wasn't sure though.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
What was it like seeing him perform?

Speaker 2 (03:09):
It was great because he was a great performer and
he was like he could sing, but also and at
the time, this is like sixty nine seventy, this is
like when James Brown is hot and the Temptations that everybody,
so you had to sing as well as you had
to also be able to scream and dance like James Brown.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
So he used to do all of that.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
And it was pretty incredible to watch to see that,
and ultimately he ended up joining group after seven. And
it's funny when I think of who he wasn't after
seven the post to who he was as a kid,
because he had so much more energy and just dancing
and everything as a kid. So it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
What do you think the evolution was for him from
fiery James Brown kind of it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
I think he did it really well.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
But then there was some other people in the neighborhood,
this guy named Alvin Omanson who is really good at
James Brown. So they used to kind of spar off
at each other, and I beat him one day, so
I think he decided I'm just gonna singh So doing
them splits that wasn't easy.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, was it a competitive thing with you guys? Like
when you saw was it was it like I want
to I want to do that, but better?

Speaker 2 (04:22):
It was never competitive to me. I always thought that
he had the better voice. I always thought my brother
Kevan had the better voice. I was always just kind
of like songwriter and and just you know whatever, if
I can make my song sound good, And I was
always easy, comfortable to be in the back, so it
was I didn't have to take the lead. So in

(04:44):
that sense, I never competed.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
What was one of the earliest songs you you loved?

Speaker 2 (04:48):
I think one of my first memories, uh, I remember
in sixth grade there was I mean, obviously I love
the Jackson five when they came out, but I also
was loved Smoking Robinson the Miracles, and as a matter
of fact, one of the first songs I sang in
front of a class, I sing two songs, this song

(05:09):
I'm a Girl Watcher and Smoking Robinson is here I
Go Again. And me and like three other guys, we
created a little singing group and sing in front of
our class in sixth grade. And that was also the
same year that I between sixth and seventh grade, when
I sang for my brother's band.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
They had an event at.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
My high school, one of those mixers, and they needed
somebody to sing of Michael Jackson songs. So my brother
auditioned myself and my brother.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
Kevin, and I won. I don't know how I won.
I won, And then you.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Know, I sang Who's Loving You in front of this crowd.
And that's and the thing that's what's always funny. I
can remember for the longest time when I would hear
I Want You Back, because that's the music that they
would play as I walked on the stage, and I
get so nervous just the thought of hearing that and

(06:09):
to walk up on that stage, I just be I
turned to mess, my heart beat beating hard, and every
now and then when I hear it done good to
do it could still get me just a little bit
to this day.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Really, Yeah, that's one of the most joyous songs of
all time.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Oh showtime.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Do you think do you think you've ever gotten over
that sort of I don't know if it's stage fright or.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
I think not.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
I think it's an interesting thing, those stage fright and
those triggers, those things that make you that you can't control.
And I think ultimately I thought I learned how to
control it. And then a few years ago I did
Dancing with the Stars, and I found myself right back

(06:56):
in that same place where I couldn't get rid of
the nerves.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
And then for the longest time, to this day, there's
a song that we did. I did a remix of
the X Fi House theme, and so now when I
hear X Files, I get a little.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
That song has been kicking my ass for years anyway, terrifying.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
So it's funny. It's funny how how these triggers can
work for you. Yeah, music triggers.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, Smoking Robinson, that's a great in terms of a songwriter.
I think we.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Forget how Smokey was amazing and just and he just
did it so natural that I think that's about how
we forget because it was like a conversation for him. Yeah,
you know, and so he clearly was a huge inspiration.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
In that way.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah. Yeah, because you were playing guitar, did you gravitate
more towards that music, like a Bill Withers or anything.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Like that, or I liked Bill Withers, but when I
was playing. When I started playing, Bill Withers wasn't around,
and I didn't learn how to play the guitar to
learn what other guitar players were doing. My brother he
come on, he came home and played these chords. So

(08:26):
he started that it wasn't that part, and I added
that later, but it was first, and I was like,
looked at it. I was like, that's crazy. And then
I would go and when he'd leave, I'd go in
another room and pick up the guitar and try to
do it. The other thing is he was right handed,
so it was a right handed guitar. So that's why

(08:49):
to this day I played upside down.

Speaker 4 (08:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
And so at one point he came to me and said,
when he finally he catched me playing it, he walked
in and he goes, I don't care what you do,
you will never be able to play that as good
as me, And that made that pushed me to work
harder at doing it, and unfortunately was not here anymore.
But I wanted to ask him because I always thought

(09:14):
that was mean for him to say. But at the
same time, it just occurred to me just here recently.
Maybe he was saying that because I was left handed
right and I would never be able to finger it
the way that he could finger it, so I won't
get it quite the same.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
And now it's a mystery.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's wild that you play so like left handed as beautifully.
I just I don't know how you do it.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
Well, I think it's it's however you pick up anything.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
If you don't know the rules, then the rules don't count.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
There are certain things just that it might be easier
for me to do with there's certain things that are
harder for me to do when it's the right handed.
So you just got to figure out your way around it.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
But I think once I realized you played upside down,
and when I listened to your music, your songs sound
in a way so different that sometimes I feel like, oh,
it makes sense that it's upside down, like it's the
or is there less rooted in the bass, And you
know it's just just interesting. I hear looseness, you know.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, I mean there's probably something to that. I think.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I always like to say, even when I played and
learn things on the piano I play, I'm not really
a piano player. I learned things to support my songwriting,
and that's what I did. Then I turned that into
my first song. You know, the song you just played,
song I just played. That was like I ended up.

(10:36):
I didn't write Here I Go again, I go here
I go falling in love again. That was my first song,
and I wrote it for a girl because I was
like in love and stuff, and.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
So the guitar really was just an instrument.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
For me to get these songs out of me. And
so I wasn't really trying to learn any songs that
were on the radio, and it was all just songwriting.
So I was just learning chords to support all my
little songs.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Wow, And for you, songwriting was about writing songs for
the girls you were in love with, crushes.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
On crushes, and it was it was purely kind of
an escape. So to say, wow, it wasn't anything but that.
I didn't think they were going to go anywhere. But
that was the that was the drive, and you would.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Have been like eleven twelve, ten, eleven twelve, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
So started in sixth grade, start picked up, picked it up.
Then then by the time eighth grade came, I was
kind of folks swinging and had a number of little
bands I was part of, and a lot happened in
a short amount of time I was. When I look
back at it, it's kind of crazy to think of
how much we did as a little band, because obviously

(11:50):
you will not find today thirteen and fourteen year olds
having a band, yeah and trying to play music that way,
and yeah, not even in in rock. You know, it's
hard to find that period. And back in the day
for us, that was we were all trying to be
in a band.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah. You know, how did you get to Manchild, which
was your first group you put a record out with?

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, And in high school, starting as a sophomore, I
joined this well created this band that we called Tarny Silver,
and we played from my sophomore year to my senior year.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
We played everything.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
We were like the go to band for the mixers,
the proms and everything, and.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
In fact, we had did it so much.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
One year, I think it was my last year as
a senior, there was another guy that was challenging us.
Decided to challenge us because he said he wanted to
play at the mixer that year the homecoming, and I said,
I'm fine, we don't, but people were saying, well, no,
we think we want tarns Silver to play.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
So I think their band was called Destiny, and so we.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Actually had a school vote about what band will played
for the homecoming and we won.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
It was quite disappointing to him, but dave Man.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Was his name.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
But we played.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
We played all those things, and that was playing these
colleges on the weekends. We played for you know, IU
and Purdue and ball State.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
So we were like semi popular.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
So my senior year, the drummer that we had a
guy named Rayferd Griffin, who's actually was a really good drummer.
He went on to play with Jean Lupatti and George
Duke and Stanley Clark, so he was an incredible player.
He was an incredible player. He was like way too
good for us. So he was in our band and
he was getting ready to go away to college, and
then our saxophone player he was getting ready to go

(13:53):
away to college. So the band was gonna break up.
And it was my senior year, and all of a
sudden I woke up. I realized and my other friends
they were all getting ready to go to college as well,
and I hadn't prepared.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
I was just like being in a band. I didn't
know what I was going to do.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
And we had this one last show that we did
at a friend's house and one of the guys, Rayfert Griffin,
his brother, Reggie Griffin, was a man Child and he
was an excellent musician, Like he played sacks, he played keyboards, cleaverne,

(14:31):
and he played a guitar, excellent player. And he came
and saw our show and he asked me that night
if I would consider joining Manchild, And so he saved
my life at that point because I had no plans,
no band, and no band, and I did not know
that they were on track to getting a record deal.

(14:55):
So I really at high school. The year I graduated,
I joined the band and had a record deal. That's wild,
and so I got really lucky, you know, And then.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
I want to play I want to play one of
the songs off the first record that that you wrote
and sang funky situation you guys were going.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Man, So, I actually wrote this when I was in
Turn Silver and uh So I wrote that in high
school because it was part of it was one of
our one of the songs that we would actually play,
you know, when we when we do these gigs. So
we were obviously inspired. We were heavily inspired by like

(15:45):
earth Wind and Fire. Then we were also inspired by
the chick Corea and and Stanley Forever Turned Forever, and
so we we were like, so we tried to be
jazzy too, So that's what because it goes to a
little jazzy and then inspired by Stevie Wonder too and
all that. So all that was kind of ended up

(16:05):
being mixed, not done very well, but still the ideas
was was there, but it was part of being a
little confused, not really knowing how to put it all together,
not knowing how to make a hit, not knowing how
to make something commercial, but just trying to make that
we thought it was commercial. But that was one of

(16:26):
the first songs that you know that man Child took
from me that it's funny to hear it right now,
and I can. I definitely wrote that on acoustic guitar,
and I was trying to be like I was trying
to be funky, you know, funky situation. But we were
so influenced by earthwinder Fire, so influenced that I went

(16:46):
to see earth Fire with the silvers and stylistics, and
I actually had the chance to interview Maurice White.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
And you interviewed Maurice White in the seventies.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yes, I lied and said I was a news reporter
and got in to meet him. And me and my
friend Darryl, we were so into them Aryl Simpson.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
So we watched the show.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
And they were kind of new there, so nobody was
completely familiar. It was more of a black thing. They
hadn't quite crossed over yet. So when we would go,
we learned their songs and play their songs live. We
take their whole routines and do it. We did it
so well that actually, a couple of years later, there

(17:27):
was a friend of ours that went to was going
to school in Boston, and he called us in a
frantic He said, you know, you guys need to sue
this group. I just saw this group and they stole
all of your songs and stole your whole act.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
You need to sue talk about.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
That's how earth Wind and Fire we were. So when
I listened to that record, that's what I hear. I hear,
I hear all those influences of from Earth Wind and
Fire to Return Forever to Stevie Wonder, and it's all
it's all mixed.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
And it sounded a little Parliament too. I was just
really on the maybe the got some bootsy solo records
or something that sounded very.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Not quite yet. I think later on these records never
came up. But later on I think I was, like
Reggie was definitely Parliament influence.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
But I think we never really messed with that. We didn't.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
And that's the interesting thing because this band, Manchild, I
always think that I missed the.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Group up when I joined it.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Why is that because the band was so funky before
and I was just learning funk that was real fun
yet that was it wasn't all the way there, but
it was trying to be there, but I was just
learning it. And the thing is when we were in
Tarres Silver, before I was asked to join, we used

(18:54):
to play all these as I told you before we
used to play all these colleges and they were always
more of a white audience. So everything we played, all
they wanted to do is dance and drink and dance,
and so we thought we were amazing. We're like, this
is there's nothing, there's no crowd, we can't win. Before
before we're over there dancing and they're running around them.

(19:16):
You know, it's the best audience with it, and we
just thought we had we was the ship. Then one
day we got a gig to play for Tech High School,
which was a all black school, and we got it
to play for their prom and we went and started
playing and they sat there with their.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Arms folded looking at us like like what is this ship?

Speaker 2 (19:38):
You know? And we even pulled out one of theirse
went for O songs I think devotion, thinking that was
gonna get them. Nope, what is this its Soon as
we stopped playing, they put on the Ohio players and
the DJ and they was all on the floor dancing,
and like realized how how unblack we were at that
point and.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
How funky we didn't know anything about black and men.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
That same time period, we were asked to go down
to this little club called the Inn Crowd which is
where Man Child played, and they let us come down
there to open up for them. We performed and they
were kind to us, and then next up came out
Man Child. They this is the first time seeing them,

(20:24):
and when they came out, there was like dry ice
coming out and they did this version of Chaka Khan
Rufus and Chaka Khan, I'm a backbone.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, I'm a woman, I'm a backbone.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
And so the chorus on that was I'm a woman,
I'm a backbone, and they came out I'm a man child,
I'm I'm a motherfucker, I'm a man. He was just
so funky and so it was like, oh my god,
I didn't know. And then they also included you know,
returned to Forever Licks and they they were so they

(20:57):
were very good and Chucky Bush was the key up
Wheer who was who played with us for a little bit,
so he was everybody was.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
They were like.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Next level musicians. I thought that's when they were at
their best. And when I joined the band, I think
they were looking to stretch and go further so and
try to be a little more mellowed and go other places.
They had the lead singer, this guy named Flash Farrow,
who was one of the best front men I've ever

(21:26):
known and ever seen. He was like Mick Jagger, he
was like he had a rough voice, so the songs
that I was writing wasn't necessary for him, and I
was I was singing, writing these softs love songs, and
and he wasn't really feeling it, and neither was I
think Bobby the drummer, and they kind of like didn't

(21:47):
really completely like it. In fact, they gave me a nickname,
which wasn't a nice nickname, but Waterfall. Really, yeah, all
you do is waterfall music, you know, and you bring
stop ringing that fucking ass waterfall music. And that's all
I knew what to do, except every now and then
try to do funky situations. But they were like such

(22:11):
one of the best funk bands and I had ever
seen and never heard at that particular point, and I
feel like had they stayed kept that direction, then it
might have been something else with them. And I think
I changed that direction. We ended up getting a hit
song that I wasn't really a party with, especially for you,
that that did well. But I don't think I think

(22:33):
it was meant. It was a place for me to
learn how to how to write music. It helped me
learn how to do be more urban, do more R
and B. Because I was like a waterfall kid. I
listened to James Taylor, and really, you know, when I
go in my car on Sundays, I love to listen
to James Taylor.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
So I did like acoustic music. I like John Denver,
so I like bread great pop songs.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, So I was like in the Beatles, so I
would do that. I was always would be on my
acoustic guitar, so things would be prettier in that sense,
and then i'd write them slow songs were pretty that way.
So I was just kind on a different page.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
When did you get into the Beatles back.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
The same time?

Speaker 2 (23:15):
It was into smoky yeah, because we had a black
station that was WTLC, and then we had the pop station,
which was w IP So on Sundays when I would
go to church, as soon as the choir would be done,
i'd go sit in the car and I wouldn't listen
to TLC because it'd be just other church music. So

(23:36):
that's when I got educated with pop music. That's why
I first heard James Taylor Wow and listened to the
pop stations.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
What were the James Taylor songs and Beatles songs that
kind of pulled you in.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
You've Got a Friend Beatles.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
It was everything from I Want to Hold Your Hand
to Ultimate Yesterday and everything.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
It was everything The Beatles did really gorgeous sound in.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, it was just great copyrights. Bottom line. I was
just soaking all of it in. It didn't always have
a place to put it, but I still soaked it in.

Speaker 5 (24:07):
Well.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
I gotta say I want to play song for much
later in your Creator you wrote and produce for Whitney Houston.
I want to play because it made me think when
you were talking about that, like coming out of church
and with the choir and then tuning into you know,
hearing James Taylor and these things. It's like in your music,
I feel like I really hear like the combination and

(24:28):
to the personalness of the singer songwriter thing. And I
know you're famous for love songs, but in a lot
of ways, sometimes your love songs to me feel greater
than just romantic love. It feels almost like a devotional
kind of thing. And Exhale, which you wrote for Whitney,
always felt I want to play little that always struck
me that way.

Speaker 5 (24:48):
Sometimes you're live, sometimes your correct life never tells up
the windso lies.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
When you've got for rid.

Speaker 5 (25:05):
You a shoe were.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
Oh my god. If there is such thing as a
perfect song, that's it.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
I remember.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
In writing this because I was thinking of songs that
you've seen in the other films that were haunting, And
it was a couple of years before that Bruce Springsteen
did The Streets of Philadelphia and it was a haunting
kind of feel. So I wanted this to have a
haunting kind of thing and wasn't exactly sure I was
gonna do it. And this song wasn't necessarily always supposed

(25:41):
to happen because Whitney hadn't necessarily always agreed that she
would sing on this album. So this is kind of
like one of the last ones to show up, you know,
because we ultimately needed a theme song for it, but
until she sung, it wasn't gonna be one I did.
I worked hand in hand with Forrest Whitaker, who checked,

(26:03):
who listened to every song. So I was down at
the production offices and I had my whole rig there
and he bringing something for me to put some music to.
And that's and he'd give me a reference to something
that he wants something like that was never a reference
for anything like this, but everything else there might have

(26:24):
been a reference to. And then I had to kind
of write for the scene and see if it would fly.
And I think almost every time I did something, he
always liked it. And we did all this without Clive
being a part of it, yeah, which was very chancy,
but it was for the film. So but this was

(26:48):
the first time I actually ended something in the Clive
with Clive had note notes.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
I don't have Clive ears, but yees still, I know
that's a perfect song.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
Well it just felt good, you know. And it was
also at.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
An interesting time with Whitney because she wasn't singing as
strong and there's you know, the big songs, so it
was it was nice to come in and do something
chills going for the big you know, I'll always love You,
So it was it was great to do a left turn.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Like there's so much wisdom in that. And I mean,
what is what does the song like that come from?

Speaker 2 (27:29):
It comes from watching the movie, comes from watching and
watching the relationship with these girls and imagining what what
Whitney's character would say to those those people. So a
lot of times you find wisdom and just watching people
and and and watching how they how they love, or

(27:50):
how they hurt and how they fuck up, you know,
and and there's something that you can you can take
from that. And the one thing I would say today
is that in terms of writing, with what I say
in writing today, I see a lot of kids like
I think, Scissors like an excellent writer because it's not

(28:11):
just our melodies, but her words and how she says,
how her words are today, how people would talk and
how people think. She does it in such a clever way.
And I'm like a student of that at this particular point,
learning that because we were able to write simpler things
before and say these words, and the simplicity of it

(28:33):
was enough. Today it's got to be a little bit more.
It's a little bit more clever and a little bit
more how people think and how people talk today, it
doesn't we don't talk the same way, we don't hear
the same way. And so I think because of that,
I won't say easier to do it. It was just
of the time.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
I think it was just different. I mean, it's funny
because I don't think people in the nineties necessarily talk
like people in the fifties or sixties either, But there
was a universality still to music that could you know, But.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
I do think things have changed. Don't know that obviously
that music still connects to people today, and kids are
read still finding it and they don't necessarily it still
talks to them. It's just that when you're doing something today,
you need to talk to them how they talk on
their level.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
We're going to take a quick break and then we'll
come back with my conversation with Babyface. We're back with
more of my conversation with Babyface. What was the creation
of Girls' Night Out? Like, I could hear a Babyface
on this new record, but to your point, I can
definitely also hear you trying to do what you do

(29:46):
within the context of what the singers now are doing.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, the actual concept of Girls Night Out came from
my partner who helped me put the record together, So
Rika and So she had come to me and said,
you know, that's the way it did versus h and versus.
I got so many more new followers and a lot

(30:11):
of younger ones, and so she was like, you know,
you got to figure out a way to connect with them.
You got you know, you can't just do what you've
done before because they won't really speak to them. So
maybe the best way to connect with them when you're
writing and everything is to work with younger artists like Excel.
Maybe you work with girls again, yeah, and you connect
that way. But don't just write it for them. Write

(30:33):
with them, you know, collaborate with them. Make sure you're
speaking their language and they speak and you guys can
actually work together. And that's ultimately what it came down to.
We went in the studio with each artist basically had
a data do it, a data write it, and a
data basic get the basic recording.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
You'd bring in a concept maybe and then we start
right there, go fresh. Was it nerve wracking and going
like that?

Speaker 2 (31:02):
No, it was it was either going to work or not.
You know, there was no pressure. It was like, you know,
we tried and if it doesn't, it didn't work. There's
some people came we couldn't figure it out, and some
people we figured it out, but we have to come
back and finish it up in terms of odubtion. But
the basic idea of every song was always done in
that day. Wow, And that was kind of the magic

(31:24):
of it a little bit. I mean, look, do I
feel like I did an album full of hits? No,
I did an album full of moments, and those moments
that we whatever happened in that moment, that's what That's
what we came out with, and we tried to make
it the best that it could be.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Would you think about music previously like that, like, oh,
is this an album full of hits versus or were
you always doing moments?

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Well, sometimes you do want to necessarily do hits. You
do want to do something that's going to really kind
of hit everybody, hit everybody in the room, and if
it's not there, then you want to keep working on
it and get it, you know. And we didn't have
that luxury. We just kind of like, this is it,
this is a moment, and we'll.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Roll with it.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, So in that sense, I do I think I
could have maybe even made it better, yeah at the time,
but we just took that moment and that was kind
of like the experience yehself, you know, That's what I'm saying.
And because of that, you know, also not just working
with you know, the girls, but also working with some
younger producers that come with tracks and things that allowed

(32:27):
me to also kind of like get into that and
build from there as well. So it was all an
effort of trying to speak to an audience that I
don't normally speak to, but speak to them through another
form of artistry.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
So to say, yeah, collaboration.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah yeah, out of any of those collaborations, do you
think you forged any you know, lasting relationships.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yes, no question, And I'm sure we'll do more work
together and that that's great. So I think that the
process was fun and the results was, you know, came
out nice.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
So it came out great. I got to say, like,
you know, it's interesting. Rolling Stone recently put out like
a list of like two hundred greatest singers. I looked
at the list and I was like, yeah, it's not
it's like something like I'll read that one that makes
sense to me and some of the things. But I
sort of making just jotting down, like what do I
think are my favorite singers? And I started putting them down.
I'm like, man, you know, like maybe it's just a
time thing. But I didn't really have anyone beyond the nineties,

(33:23):
and I did sort of think of I don't think
it was because I'm biased towards that music. But and
not that there's no good R and B singers. Now
there's some great singers, but there's no vehicles. Sometimes I
think these days for like for a great vocalist to
show how great their vocals are. But it sounds to
me on this record like you really I don't know,
I realized, like, man, you really know how to work
with singers, because these days there's a lot of effects

(33:46):
on voices and things, but you still found a way
to kind of create something where they could really drive
the song.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Man.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, I think it's it's that's just emotion, so and
it's it's not about how many rips you do or anything.
It's really just about our emotion.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Can you get on it? Yeah, I feel like you've
been given something.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
There are a lot of really good vocalists girls that
can sing today. There's a lot of them, and it's
like there weren't that many back in the day, you know,
where we could just count on. You know, there was Brandy,
there was Monica, there was Whitney, you know, Deborah Cox,
and you know we had a few, but not as

(34:27):
many as there are today. There's so many girls that
can really blow and what people that we don't know
and even as many just as many that you can
find on on TikTok or the singing wasn't like that before.
Also the difference in terms of like how even with
how it used to be so rare to find whether

(34:48):
it's a white kid or that they could sing sing
and really have riffs, and that changed completely, Like you
can find so many of these kids, like these young
white kids that can like clearly blow and that.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
It sounds like they grew up on gospel.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah sometimes and that was clearly just left for you know,
initially there was Tina Marie who was that?

Speaker 3 (35:12):
Who was that girl? Then?

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, and she know she was more. Yeah, she got
a little past sometimes at least a Stan spill got
a little bit of a pass, but not clearly not
like not like Tina, I like Tina, not like Celine
Dion came and just kind of tore it up and
to really have like could move their voice where where

(35:37):
Whitney was like okay, she could sing so and that
that all changed And I think I think it was
McDonald's anyway, you.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
Think it was McDonald's.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
I'm thing happened. Something was in the water.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
But I think overall just I mean, what the real
answer is that black music and R and B. So
it became so infectious that when people listened to things
enough that it becomes part of them. Yeah, you know,
And the same thing applies for even like overseas, even

(36:17):
for like the K pop Yeah, kids.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Say, man, come on, and that was you man. I mean,
I feel like we should say that flat out because
you may not want to, you know, and others and others.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
I was in the group with other people and others
my question help help influence.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
It's like there's a point R and B was on
the charts as like race music, you know, by the.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Nineties, nineties it was it was all included. Nineties it
was there was not really you could you couldn't tell
the difference hardly between the R and B chart and
the pop chart.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Yeah, because what was black was also pop as well.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, Bobby Brown and boised them in and you know,
even I had some things that were in pop at
the top tens that I didn't even I didn't know
that Whipping Piel.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
Was a top ten popping of the year nineteen. I
didn't know.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
I didn't know it even touched that stuff so because
I always thought of it just R and B. So,
but there was a point where it was that now
it's it's changed again. Where I mean, hip hop is
the one thing that's you always got to keep watching
things as you know, know how things will slight. But
the influence is crazy and it has been and always

(37:27):
has been. So when when speak people speak of the
future of R and B in the future, just black
music in general, it's always here because it's always influencing.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
It always is. And know what's funny, man, It's like,
you know, rock and roll and hip hop take a
lot of air out of the room and look great,
you know, no doubt. But when you think about it,
R and B really is like the great American art
form because if you go back nineteen forty, Louis Jordan,
the nineteen fifties, Ray Charles, nineteen sixty, you got Motown stacks,

(38:00):
all this great Atlantic artists in the seventies with you know,
Stevie Finley really come out earth Wind and Fought, and
you know in the eighties, come on, man, R and
B is kind always right there.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
It started here, It's in everything. So it always has
been so, and I think that's that people get. They
get tunnel vision on just one particular sound and one
particular thing. I love the changes, and I love to
see people experimenting with it and and growing making letting
it grow.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
So can't play a deal song Sweet November. I'm gonna
play a little, just a little bit of it. I
feel like this has something to do with with your name.

Speaker 6 (38:41):
But time that will read bad love that.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Wow, man, that's that's a great song.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
I wrote that right out of high school. Out of
high school, yeah it was. It was because I was
a man child. So second year or something seventy eight
or so, seventy eight seventy nine, right in that time.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
So this was a girl. It was like this one girl.
She was like the most.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
While we were in high school, we were really good friends,
and there's no way I would have ever thought I
would have been with her. But when I got out
of high school, we we started talking and then we
actually started dating.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
I remember Daryl was like, how how was this even happening?
How do you have her?

Speaker 2 (39:40):
And then I remember we went to go see Brookshields
Endless Love. We saw Endless Love together and then something happened.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
I think right before we were going away in Manchild.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
All of a sudden she stopped calling me and I
couldn't I couldn't reach her, and I don't know what happened,
but it was just like we're just like broken up.
And then there was no cell phones. There was no
good you couldn't return the phone, and.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
The social media.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
It was just done. And I was really messed up
about it.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
And and that's when I wrote this, you know, because
you know, that was the time period. It was in
the fall, and sudden I was thinking maybe maybe when
I come back, maybe maybe this November, we'll get back
together and find it. So that was actually a love
song that was written way back then.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
And would you have written the words or would you
write the words for piano and wrote it's at the piano?

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, wow, So.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Because it's kind of beautiful even just divorced from the music,
if you just look at the words like high level.
You know.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, it was when autumn first arrived you when my
lady we're dating.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
It was the second ign of attom. We shared a feeling.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, come on, that's it's like we started dating and
then all of a sudden, we like I remember, it
was raining and like it looks like something's going.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
To happen here.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yeah, it's like which that's an interesting song because that
the history of this song too. It's also that it's
the song that ultimately got me to be able to
sing on the Deal album because I did this. I
recorded this song, did the demo. I had always always
had the song, but when I got in the Deal,
I actually demoed it. And this isn't very far from

(41:28):
the demo at all. And so when we were working
on the second album for the Deal, Redick call Away
from Midnight Star was supposed to produce her album and
he did not because they had fell out with our
manager and our manager was the same manager they had,
so they didn't want to do anything everything to do
with us. So it was suddenly in our hands, me

(41:50):
in LA's hands too. Did Griffy said you guys should
produce it, and we were a little afraid, but we
thought we'd try. And this song I had submitted to
dig Griffy to see if I could place it on
the Whispers. I also sent the song, gave the song

(42:12):
to Luther hoping that he would sing wow, and he
never answered on it, but I got it case tape
to him so he would potentially do it too, And
so it never got to the Whispers because Dick Griffy
had heard it and he said, who is this? LA
told him this is you know, Kenny. I wasn't babyface
yet and he goes, this is Kenny, goes, so why

(42:35):
give this whispers? Why don't you guys do this song
on your album? And then La says, well, we don't
have anybody that can sing it, and said, what are
you talking about? You got who's singing this? He said, oh,
it's Kenny singing it. He said, well, how come he singing?
He said, because he's not the lead singer. And Dick
said that's stupid. He should be singing. Then LA had

(42:58):
to have a group meeting to see if I could sing,
and once they had the group meeting, they voted me
not to sing. Still, I had no problem with it
because I wasn't trying to be a singer. Every time
I was doing these songs. It wasn't like I was
thinking I was gonna do a record with it. It's

(43:18):
just me writing songs.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
What you do.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
And so Dick Grify came back said, well, if this
ain't on the album, if he ain't singing it, then
you guys ain't got no album. So that's how I
was able to sing Sweet November on that album.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
What were they saying, you can't sing you that it's
a beautiful vocal.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
They didn't want me to sing because they were already
two lead singers.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Got it okay, So it was a it's a power thing.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah, you know, like, look, we got our singers. We
don't need any any more confusion.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
And I got that. I wasn't.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
I did not join the group to be a singer
at all, and so Sweet November is ended up being
that song that you know, it's a heartfelt song with
a song that ultimately got me to start singing in
the group to begin with.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
And it kind of solidified your name right.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Well, the name had nothing to do with that. The
name just came because everybody in the deal had a
great name. It was La, Ko d Carlos Stick and
Kenny Edmands and we were looking around trying to find names.
We tried Romeo not really it, and a couple other

(44:33):
names they were doing. Nothing was sticking until one day
La and Ko were in the studio working with Bootsy,
helping Bootsy do a demo and I walked in the
studio and Bootsy looks at me, he goes, Babyface, and
that was kind of like where it started. I didn't
like the name. I thought it was a little soft,
and I didn't like it all, but he said Babyface anyway.

(44:56):
So then this was probably in eighty five, so much
after the song. So we're like now eighty five, we're
out on tour. So d goes one night. I would
sing this song every night. One night you'd go, that's
Kenny Edmans, give it up to Kenny Edmans, and you know,

(45:17):
there'd be a little bit of love, a little bit
of something. But then one night he said give it
up to Babyface. It was a completely different reaction, and
that night a whole bunch of girls came back looking
for Babyface. I sung that song every night the same
I swear it was not any different, but singing it
as Babyface suddenly made it a whole other thing, which

(45:41):
just taught us a lesson of just being commercial and
name and everything branding, you know. So it was a
lesson and I became very comfortable when the girls came back.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
I was comfortable with having the new Babyface at that point. Yeah, yeah, questions.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
So that song was really personal. Yeah, exhale was more
from watching the movie.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
Watching the movie.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
You don't necessarily have to write from personal experience, you can,
you can, you can watch others, and.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
Yeah, it's really about watching others and how they how
they feel, and how they imagining having to go through that.
I'm always asked, how are you able to write for women? Yeah,
and I said, if you just kind of think of
it and think of whatever they go through and think
out how you'd feel, you know, it's not that hard
to figure out.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
Damn, that's fucked up, I feel, you know, think all
right about that, you know.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
And as a kid that was always falling in love
and thinking I was in.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Love, feeling like you were in love.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
You know, that's what it was. My very first song
was about a girl named round the new bould always
say her name, and that was in here I Go
falling in love again. And the second song that I
wrote that I clearly remember was about the same girl,
which was two years later, from sixth grade to eighth grade,
because she broke my heart what's called the Better Taste

(47:03):
of Life. Oh those are feelings that I that I
had and everything was exaggerated. I had written a song
called so Shy, So there were pieces. There would be
pieces of things, of songs that I would write. I
wrote a song called Anita, wrote a song called Shelley.
One of the best songs I ever wrote was a

(47:23):
song called Last Song Forever, which was I wrote that
when I was in my senior year, never recorded. I
think so. I think I let a group recorded as
they turned into a gospel.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Do you remember any of it?

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Could you play a little of it?

Speaker 3 (47:36):
I don't know what my voice is like right now.

Speaker 5 (47:42):
When I think Spanish, I remember a special feeling sweet Shore.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
Then I think.

Speaker 5 (47:57):
Spanish show moments. Those were special times. You told me
you can.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
You know when.

Speaker 4 (48:09):
This will blown away? I hope you know my now,
my love will always. I love you for usually know
man love King and no Beeta LEAs song for ound.

(48:34):
I gotta love you.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Then not do right now?

Speaker 2 (48:44):
And that's a little Pisa anyway. So that was in
my senior year. I wrote that song for a girl
that that liked be for a long time. And it's funny,
it's interesting. It was it was a it was a

(49:06):
white girl that liked me and in high school at
that time, it was like, you don't you don't do that.
And we were friends and we and we did music together.
We liked doing music together, and Darryl and everybody would
go to her house and write, write music and create music,

(49:27):
and so we always vibe with each other. And she
really got a crush on me. She was like, she
lived really close to the school and I lived so
far away. She was like asking, let me come over
to your house and pick you up and take you to.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
School in the morning.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
And she went to do everything in the world for me,
and I was like, that's great, but I didn't want
this girl to that same inund neighborhood picking me up
and stuff. And so I was like and I just
realized at the point I was like being very it
was almost like reverse racism to a certain extent for me.
And I was like, well, what about a lot of heat.

(50:00):
I'm sure what a brought heat? And back then they
call you times and stuff like that. Yeah, but in
our school that was you know, it wasn't like it
was it never happened, but it would sometimes. So one
point she had gone away to on a spring trip,
so she went down to Florida or something, and when

(50:20):
she was gone, I really missed her. So I thought
to myself, you know what, forget it.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
I don't care.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
I don't care what color she is, I don't care
any When she comes back, I'm going to tell her,
let's do this. And she came back. She had a tan,
she was fine as but I waited too long. When
she came back, she had changed at that point. She
wasn't interested anymore because she had tried and she finally

(50:51):
met someone else. I waited too long, and then that
was it. And then I wrote that song, and it
was just interesting to me because it was like, you know,
when someone's pushing for you to like you and trying
to like you, and you're pushing them away for reasons,
not because of how you feel, but because of what
everybody else thinks. And when if I had it just

(51:15):
not cared about that, yeah, then it maybe it would
have been different. But then it had that not happened,
I don't know if I'd written the song, so you
wouldn't have.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
The best song you ever wrote. How many other great
songs do you have sitting.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
There's a lot of things I can remember back in
those days, just stuff I've written on the guitar. I
can go through things to see songs that I've written
over the years I don't necessarily love, but it feels
like a lot of the things that I wrote that
were heartfelt from the guitar. I don't necessarily think they're
commercial songs, but their songs that I love. You know.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
Yeah, you did that record playlist like maybe fifteen or
so years ago. It was kind of more like it
was sort of more just you an acoustic in a way.
It was covering some of the songs some of the
things that inspired me, you know, But doing a record
of like that with originals would be Yeah, maybe it
would be cool capture.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
A moment right throughout it all, there were songs that
would I would write and these feelings that I would have,
you know, as a kid, And that's what the whole
idea of Waterfall came from doing things like that.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
We're gonna pause for a quick break and then come
back with the rest of my conversation with Babyface. We're
back with the rest of my interview with Babyface. You
didn't mention her name with the girl that you wrote
Sweet November four. Do you ever know what happened to her?
Did you ever figure that out?

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yes? She lives in Indianapolis. And did I ever follow
up and ask about what happened?

Speaker 3 (52:45):
I did.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
She said she had just met someone else and felt
really bad about how it ended, and I don't really care.
I even met with round the new boat. I met
with her from the whole sixth grade thing. That's a
whole long story. And I actually talked to her as
well because I wanted to see I was so interested
to find out if my memory was the same. Yeah,

(53:09):
did did things happen the way that I thought they happened?

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Did they kind of remember the same?

Speaker 2 (53:15):
It was pretty close? Pretty close, It was pretty It
was pretty pretty hon it, which was mind blowing to
me that I, you know, that I really remembered it
kind of the right way.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
So wow, it seems like you carry things, you know,
like with you.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
My memory of those days stay with me because there
was something very powerful about when you're young and when
you're in love and how powerful that is, and that
that feeling you want to die, you know. That's like
when I wrote Breathe Again, I was writing from that

(53:52):
perspective of like thinking, you know, if you leave me,
I'll never breathe again, and that kind of desperate thing
that kids feel because it's the first time and it's
like everything is, you know, amplified by a million yes.
And I used to love to go to that space sometimes.
If I'm writing a love song, a heartfelt love song,

(54:13):
then it's great to go to that space too, you know,
as a reference, you know, for those feelings, so.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
You can conjure up that.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
So as I carry these stories, I carry those feelings too, amazing,
you know, and able to call on those in that way.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
We should listen to just a bit of breathing. I
love hearing your songs, if you're cool with it.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
That song was when I was writing it. I did
the music first, and I was writing in and I
was actually writing it for another artist, writing for an
artist named MacArthur who was Melvin Gentry, who was part
of a Nice Star. And initially I was coming up
with the track for his album. And then as I
did that and those chords came to me and those

(55:14):
lyrics in my hand said oh no, this is not
for him, this is this is a tony song, you know,
and then all of a sudden, it just you know,
like flushed in the whole idea of it. And I
was able to go back to that that little kid,

(55:35):
you know, that was like destroyed in eighth grade and
and thinking of those words. And that's that's how you know,
you go to those moments, and that's how you can
revisit those feelings again and again. It doesn't always have
to be what's going on in your life now. It
could be about either watching someone or going back to

(55:55):
his actual feeling that you may have had someone.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Yeah. Wow, you tell me about your relationship with Darryl Simmons,
Like a strong partnership you guys have. Man.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
Daryl's a great guy. Darryl.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
I know him since I was in I think ninth grade.
He used to come over to my house. He was
friends with my brother when I was in eighth grade
and he used to come over. And his memory of
me was that he had heard that I had a
microphone and they had a band, and I think I
had a microphone and my brother Michael played guitar as well,

(56:27):
and so they started this band and I was still
playing guitar a little bit, but the guitar electric guitar
I had, I shared it with my brother Michael and
Michael would take the guitar and leave it on at
rehearsal all the time.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
It's the wrongest in the world.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
But it was when I first kind of met there
where he was like wanting me to be in the band.
But my brother Michael, he voted against it because he
used to want me in it. So it was a
little bit later where we met me and my other
friend and manual officer where we had just became this
little singing thing called the Elements, and we had this

(57:07):
group called the Elements, which all of it's a long story,
but basically Daryl joined that group and we became, you know, friends.
And I was always a writer and Daryl sometimes would
be around helped me write. And then sometimes it wasn't
that he would help me write, it's just that his
being there, mate, all of a sudden, I would think
of something sometimes, as you have a person that doesn't

(57:29):
know I always write the songs, but them just being
there all of a sudden, you think of something that
you wouldn't have thought of. You know, it's just their energy.
It kind of helps in songwriting.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
I think it was a communication thing. That's just like
the way you guys communicated.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Yeah, It's just one of the kind of thing, is
I don't you just might think of a word that
you might be joking around something, and then all of
a sudden, the word hits you. They helped kind of
help you get your creative juices going. It's not always
particularly always just songwriting and stuff. Sometimes it's just their vibe.
And you know, we've been friends ever since. I've a

(58:02):
few friends, a couple of friends for sure that I've
known since I was a kid, you know, and that's
rare to have, you know, to be friends with people
for that long.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Well, especially when you're in inhabiting the world that you're
you're in and must be really grounding and great.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
It's it's it's a blessing in that way, and not
everybody is in it. Like it's just having somebody from
Indianapolis that kind of knew you when you're growing up
and and seeing you change, you know, seeing seeing you
go through the changes in your life and who you've
become and who you were at the time.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Do you still write with them ever?

Speaker 2 (58:37):
We don't write that much together, but we talk all
the time.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Yeah, when was the last time you guys got together?

Speaker 2 (58:43):
And I think I mean that was part of the love.
Marriage divorce intended the return of the tender love. He
doesn't writing with me there in the last ten years
or so. Yeah, it's I think when you're a writer
that's writing today and you're constantly writing with younger writers,
the writing kind of changes and so you lean towards
other people in terms of like when you because because

(59:06):
they're they're speaking differently, and if you're not doing it
on a continuous basis, what you have to offer is
in quite the same.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
So yeah, yeah, I do want to ask all the
great singers you work with. You wrote a song that
Aretha did Willing to Forgive.

Speaker 3 (59:20):
Yeah, there was a hit for her.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
What was working with Aretha?

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Like? That was surreal to actually go in with the
Aretha Franklin. And she was so nice to me. She
wasn't always nice to everybody, so that's why I felt privileged.
She was such a pro. She like, you get you
maybe get one, you maybe get three runs down maybe,

(59:44):
but she'll come and say I'm gonna do it once,
I'm gonna do it twice, and that's it, you know.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
And could you kind of direct her beforehand, say hey,
you know.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
Every now and then she might let you, but for
the most part she just kind of like she'd do
her homework and then she she'd go. I mean, she
would have been with me and we were able to
do some things. But I think probably my fondest experience
with Rita was doing Hurt psych hel Xcel the way

(01:00:16):
she she's that was a one time through. That was
one time wow, and it was just unbelievable. Oh and
I think my best work with her, and I ended
up doing kind of the greatest hits records with her
with we were doing covers and stuff, but to be honest,
her voice wasn't quite the same anymore. It was like

(01:00:39):
you could hear what she could what she was trying
to do, but it wasn't quite the same anymore. But
so having her have done that with her psych hell,
she loved the song and she and she's singing like
she loved it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
Her voice was still her voice at that point, and
hearing it in like just us in a studio space was.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
H It was like just like here, she just came in
and she said, let's go, let's do it, and it
was it was done unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
You told me the story making end of the Road.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
So end of the Road was written for Boomerang. Went
to see the movie before it was all the music
was there, and there was one particular scene that I
thought would have worked great, and we got the word
that boyster Man might do the song. So I definitely
was writing the song in a very old Philly kind of,

(01:01:36):
you know way, so that whole sound of Philadelphia, so
because that's where they were from, So definitely writing in
that kind of like that. And so as I as
I started putting it together, I had a little house
in Atlanta that I would go to write up my
songs for this project in general, and so I got

(01:02:00):
it pretty far.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
I was pretty excited about it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
I written that most of the words and stuff, and
then I then I called Daryl over to see as
to I really got one, and Daryl was like, this
is one, and so I demoed it and he helped.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
Me finish it up.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
And initially I thought the song was so strong, I
almost considered trying to keep it for myself, you know,
but I wasn't going to be an artist on this
Boomerang thing. But hindsight, there's no question it was supposed
to be boised them in when they started singing and
it was it was automatic.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
So we just flew up there to Philadelphia.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
They were on tour and they came in, had just
one afternoon to sing it down and uh, and that's
how we that's that's how we started.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Is it true that wasn't vocally in the best shape
Wanya was.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
They were on tour, so he was like a little
bit of a cold and stuff like that, and they
were all kind of a little bit because they were
out there singing. But it was fine, you know. Obviously
it was new for all of us because like we
hadn't worked with a group like that before, and so
coming up with these parts. They were great because they
could help come up with parts on top of it

(01:03:13):
and a lot of the notes were already there because
I had done armies and stuff, and then they were
built on top of it and created on the spot,
and it felt like it just felt like it was
a natural thing, you know, and it's ultimately that rolled
over into you know, I'll make Love to you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Incredible. Yeah, setting up in my room at such a
different groove from from from so many songs of that era.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Even Yeah, it was sitting up in my room was
once again going back to funky situation, you know, be
trying to figure out how to do funk, you know,
way years later, just trying to give something that was
supposed to be just be one particular scene. I think
the the music that was there in the scene first

(01:04:02):
was Aliah back and forth, and I needed to have
something that just kind of grooved a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
So that was what I came up with.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
And I hadn't and I knew it was going to
be for Brandy, So I was trying to imagine how
she would sing it, you know, Yeah, and then when
she came and sing it out, blown away, how.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Good she is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
That's such a cool vocal mass.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
She's just so good. She's Brandy is so good. I
think I can put Brandy up in the top ten
of like singers. In terms of studio singers. There aren't
very many that can they are as good as she is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Wow, they just aren't even at that young age.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Even at that young age, there just aren't very many.
She's like, she's a beast.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Who else would you put on that list?

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
I mean, some people you put on the list based
off because their their vocals are just crazy. I mean,
obviously Whitney you know, yeah, because it's Whitney Houston. What
I'm talking about is not just great voice, but also
somebody just knows how to really just kill it every time.
It just sounds almost perfect every time. I don't know
that I could. Brandy's just one of those people I

(01:05:12):
think I was impressed by, you know, I was very
impressed by Money Loan and when she's singing scissors, yeah,
I'm ridiculous. So there are people that you know that
just have it. I mean the list could probably I
could probably go down and listen get more. But I

(01:05:33):
would always just say that in terms of somebody I
always feel that's underrated would be Brandy.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Is there was there anyone you wanted to work with
that you just missed? Like you mentioned the Lea, I
was thinking.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
Child, I've always wanted to work with her.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
I think, isn't she making music right now?

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
She's got yeah no, but that doesn't meaning because she's
got so much pain in her voice that I would
love to work with that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
So that's that's the one that sticks. I always got it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
I just want to play one more cut. So this
this was some of the Preacher's Wife's soundtrack. My heart
is calling.

Speaker 5 (01:06:10):
Because I'm trying too. But when I swear.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Reservations, my spectization there, it's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Man, I'd do it better today.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
What would you do different?

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
The groove wasn't The groove was good, but it wasn't
like Whitney was all the way on the pocket with it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
Is that why it be? Uh? And I would have
made this core stronger?

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Was it tough working with Whitney? Like was it similar
to reatha where you'd only get a couple of takes?

Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
Whitney would shot she worked.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Our problem would be we'd be sitting around joking and
laughing and stuff all the time, and okay, it should
work and uh, and then we finally get it down.
But a lot of times we would just be always
laughing about stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
So one of the great joys of my life is
that we got three Michael albums with Quincy and then uh.
But one of my I wish we could have got
like a full Whitney baby face record, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Yeah, I think there would have been a shot at
that that she, you know, had she lived longer, we
were certainly in talk to doing work together again.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
You guys were talking again.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Clive had called me and and said, you know, she's ready.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
I think she's about ready to do this. And then
she you know, you know she was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
She was right on the road of turning everything around
and getting it back.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
When was that Clive call in comparison to maybe a
month before, were starting to collect songs already and not
yet I was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
I was waiting to see if it was true.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
We didn't see whether her voice was back there because
I wanted to do it with her when her voice
was in shape. And yeah, and I wanted it, you know,
because I loved working with Whitney, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
So was there ever a chance to do more work
in the nineties, like beyond the soundtrack because it was
a big gas like nineteen ninety nineteen ninety eight, and
there's like a big yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
I think we were just thinks she was just on
a different page and I was on a different page
at that point. You know, man, the way she interprets this,
see some of Me with you one of the greatest question.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Man, Well, thank you so much. We appreciate you using
this was great. Thanks again the Babyface for talking through
his career and playing for us. You can hear a
playlist of all of our favorite Babyface songs, along with
others he's written and produced. At broken record podcast dot com.

(01:08:40):
You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot
com slash broken Record Podcast. We can find all of
our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at
broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose,
Jason Gambrell, Ben Tolliday, and Eric Sander. Our editor is
Sophie Craig. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

(01:09:02):
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Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.