Ben Kweller

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Hey, this is Justin Richmond from the Broken Record podcast.
Join me this June for a live taping of Broken
Record at the Tribeca Festival. We're all bee in conversation
with Infinity Song, a New York based soft rock band
comprised of four siblings who will also be doing a
couple of songs for us. You'll hear the artist and
a career spanning conversation about their inspirations and dynamic styles.

(00:39):
We'll be at the SVA Theater on June twelve at
eight thirty pm. Defund tickets. Visit tribecafilm dot com slash
Broken Record all lowercase. That's tribecafilm dot com slash Broken Record.
Hope to see there. For close to three decades, Benkqueler's
been crafting deeply personal indie rock that's both intimate and expansive,

(01:00):
from his early days fronting the band Radish as a
teenager in the nineties to his acclaimed solo career that
began in the early two thousands, He's consistently delivered songs
that feel raw, honest, and almost conversational. But his latest album,
Covered the Mirrors finds Ben in a different place entirely.
This isn't just another collection of songs. It's an unflinching

(01:21):
examination of grief, healing, and the complicated process of moving
forward after unimaginable loss. In today's episode, we'll talk with
Ben about the loss of his teenage son Dorian, how
Ben and his family embraced grief and managed to not
retreat from their lives and work, and what it means
to return to making and releasing music. We'll also talk
about Ben's journey through the music industry, from bidding wars

(01:44):
with his first band that led to him performing for
idols like Tom Petty at a private party in Malibu,
to going independent and moving to his ranch in Texas.
This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. This episode
is brought to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to

(02:04):
meet challenges head on so you can explore with confidence.
Adventure Seekers and takers can explore the full Defender lineup
at land ROVERUSA dot com. Here's my conversation with Ben
Queler from his ranch outside of Austin. It's like amazing
to be you have a beautiful spot.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
It's like it's in a beautiful part of the country. Yeah,
it's beautiful. This bactual physical space we're in.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thank you. Yeah. This barn was actually moved here from
Fourth and Lavaca in downtown Austin. It was part of
the Missouri Pacific Railroad station in the eighteen eighties and
it was moved here in the nineteen eighties as just
a horse barn. But it was like four of these

(02:49):
long classic Texas hill country story. It was like, you know,
four of these long and there were four brothers and
each brother got a quarter of the barn. You know.
It's like it's like that kind of thing. I don't
know where the other sections are, like if they are
still around or what, but.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Be interesting to track down if it's possible.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Exactly you know it was here on this property is
just a horse barn. This front wall over here was
just wide open to the elements. And so when we
moved to this property, we just used it just as
you know, bicycles and punching bags and kids would our
boys would skateboard in here, and so it was just
like a just a gnarly garage space. And then last

(03:32):
year we decided to renovate it and really turn it
into a studio. So we put a front wall on it.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
This is only a year's worth of work.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, it took about a year. Yeah, And a lot
of this wood is old wood, and you know, you
can see the old and the new kind of feathered
in together. And then these huge columns, the blue columns.
There's six of those, so that's like the original structure.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
I like the old and the new mixtent though, and
I also like that, you know, it's all just everything's
in flux, you know.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
And I just love thinking about, like all the energy
of the people that have come and gone through this
building on a train.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
It's very fun to imagine that stuff. You know, you
can just sit and think about it forever. I'll never
crack it, but now just can only all you can
do is imagine.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Do you know why this was moved here in eighty one?

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Well, so the ranch originally was the hurl Butt Ranch.
There's a really famous Central Texas family, the hurl Butts.
So this was originally like thousands of acres back in
the day. And in fact, the first Willie Nelson's picnic
was out here about a mile down the road, but

(04:40):
on the hurl Butt ranch.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Because they were friends the hurl Butts and Willie and
so there's a lot of history on this land. When
we found this property was twenty fifteen and it just
sat on the market for a year and no one
really wanted it. We were in the middle of a drought,
and we always kind of had that My wife and

(05:02):
I had that dream search of like okay, we want
like some acreage, an old house, and some water, natural water.
And this came up and we kind of watched it,
and but it was really far away from Austin. We
were living downtown Austin at the time. And we came
and looked looked at the property and it was so cool,

(05:24):
like but it was one of those things where every
structure on the property was worse than the next and
so like it was just like it needed so much work.
Windows were busted in the main house. There were deer
living inside like animals. Like it was gnarly. It was
like a ghost house, but you could tell it was
really cool, you know, like if you just put some
love into it. Bones it had good bones, exactly, And

(05:50):
so we went for it. And we originally didn't think
we would live here. We just knew we wanted to
have a creative space, you know, recording music, making art,
a little retreat type vibe. And the more we came
out here and the more we realized that, well, we
don't really have a nine to five job, you know,

(06:11):
we can kind of be anywhere. We were like, let's
just move full time. So in twenty eighteen we moved
to the main house, which I'll walk you over there
in a little while, and we just loved it. We
loved being out in the country. We're about forty five
minutes west of Austin, and yeah, I just I can't
imagine not living where I do. And I think also

(06:35):
just you know, being a touring artist, you know, I'm
always in cities, just like all the time, and so
it really is fun to land at the airport and
in an hour, I'm back here with the trees and
the sky and the birds and now the studio.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, and your whole life is kind of an odd
mix of urban in country totally. Oh yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
I'm a little bit of this, a little bit of that,
you know. That's always and you know, my mom always
said it was because I'm a Gemini, because she's all
into that stuff astrology and geminized the twins, and so
we were really good at seeing both sides of every coin.
And my wife Liz a libro, which is the balance.
So we actually work really well together, and you know,

(07:24):
we hardly fight because we kind of just like see
each other's point of view really easily, which is nice.
But I just remember that I didn't really answer your question.
So why was this bar moved here? So it was
the hurl Butt ranch and it was just land. And
in nineteen eighty one, this local legend, Bobby Stevens, bought

(07:44):
this parcel of land, which is thirty acres because the
hurl Butt family eventually, like you know, divvied it up
and who knows what happened, you know, thousands of acres
became just little plots. So Bobby Stevens bought this ranch
thirty acres and he was driving in Austin and saw
wrecking ball about to knock over this Victorian house. So

(08:06):
he jumped out of his pickup truck nineteen eighty one,
was like, yo, what are you guys doing with that
wrecking ball? And they said, oh, well the bank, the
bank needs it gone by six pm, you know, and
and Bobby was like, well, can I have it? Like
it's a house, you know. He's like, can I have it?
And they were like, well, if you give us, you know,
a thousand bucks, sure, and so he was like, all right,
I'll be right back. And so he gave him a
thousand bucks, chain saw down the center of the house,

(08:31):
put it on two flatbed trailers and moved it out here.
So the house was moved here from West sixth Street
in Austin.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
And on did he do that all in the four
to six pms?

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Like pretty much? He at least got it off the property. Yeah,
Like this guy Bobby can do anything, Like he is
just the epitome of like can fix anything and just
has that drive and determination, you know. So he moved
the house here and he lived here for a long time.
And then shortly after they found this barn you know,

(09:04):
from the railroad station and moved it here. And then
there's a little house on the other end of the property,
which we call the Happy House, which is where the
band stays when we're rehearsing or if I'm producing an album,
the artist has lodging and that was moved here from Austin,
which is actually even crazier because it's from the Zilker
neighborhood like a block away from where my family lived

(09:27):
in Austin. So when we saw this property, we're just like, what,
like that place is from Zilker And there were just
so many little signs you know that's just pointed to
this being home for us.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
That's great. Are you a person that's always looked for
signs and things to know what.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
The ve always I've always been aware of them and
felt energies from things that happen and numbers and patterns,
and I mean, gosh, I guess actually going back now
that I think about it, to the way I started
writing songs when I was about eight, just like every
other American kid, I learned heart and soul. Someone showed

(10:06):
me how to play it dunda dun da dun da
dun da dud d dante and that just repeats. And
so I noticed, like, okay, well it's in the key
of C, which I didn't know at the time, but
I'm just seeing the white keys and you play this chord,
you skip one, go down, play the next one, skip one,
go down, play the next one, and go up one.
And so I'm like, okay, I see that pattern. And

(10:28):
I said, well, what if you don't play the second chord,
you go from the first chord to the third chord
and then up to the second chord and then the
fourth chord. And that sounded like let it be because
I was a big Beatles fan because my dad, that's
all he played was the Beadles and Hendrix and the Hollies,
like a lot of British invasion rock and roll. That's
what I grew up on. And so I'm like, wow,

(10:50):
so let it be is heart and soul, kind of
inside out. So then I was like, all right, dude,
well skip the second and third chord. Let's go from
the first chord to the fourth chord, then the second chord,
then the third chord. And that sounded like a progression
I'd never heard before. Meanwhile, there's thousands of songs with
that progression, you know. But at eight years old, I

(11:12):
was like, wow, this is incredible. And so I wrote
my first song, and I would just sing about girls
in love because that's what the Beatles sing about. So
I'm like, you write love songs. I guess that's what
you do. You know, That's all I knew. And so
that's how it started. And so you know, I'm very
visually inclined. But yeah, signs are you know, I've always

(11:37):
sort of felt them and seen a little deeper, I
guess than what's there. I'm really curious person. I like
to know how things work. I like to kind of
peek behind the curtain and really know about life and
what the hell is all this? You know. I mean,
it's not a very novel thing to say, but that's
just kind of who I am.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
That's still essential to who you are.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
And then like from a spiritual level, like I've always
just sort of been fascinated about like what's beyond, you know,
what is out around us that I don't see?

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, you know you were raised Jewish, right, Yeah, you
were born in.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
San Francisco, born in San fran.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
And then reared in Texas.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Reared in Texas.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I didn't really know you were born in San
fran But once I learned that, there was a lot
about you that makes a little more sense, okay, in
the way that like that, like well even just your
dad raising listening to British Invasion music primarily, and you
can hear a lot of that in totally what you
do for sure, And so would seem to me being

(12:43):
raised in the Jewish faith in San Francisco at easier
than out here in Texas.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Oh yeah, I mean we were the only Jewish family
in Greenville, which is a small town that we moved to,
and so yeah, I definitely, like, you know, remember hanging
out with kids who were like, you're going to go
to Hell? And I'm like, really, like what's hell all about? Like,
you know, because we didn't really you don't really talk
much about Hell in Judaism. But yeah, we left San
francisc go when I was six months old. My dad's

(13:10):
a doctor. He did his residency in San fran and
I was born there and he was part of the
Rural Health Service, which back in the late seventies early eighties,
the government would help pay for medical school as long
as you served in a rural community after medical school.
So he did his residency in San Fran and he

(13:32):
would get all these offers like, hey, there's a town
in Ohio or Pennsylvania, are you interested in that? And
then one came along it's like there's a town in
Texas that's never had a doctor. And my dad was
like that sounds cool, like you know, the wild West
or something, and so they came to Texas. I was
six months old, so he was doc like. He was

(13:53):
just like everyone's doctor, pediatrics, geriatrics, calm and cold, like
even like minor surgeries.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
If need be, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Well, I think they would for deliveries. They would at
least go to the hospital, which is like forty five
minutes away. But you know, he did a lot, like
he's a beast my dad. As a kid, I remember
just like feeling cool, like to be able to say, well,
I was born in California, Like there was just something
cool about California.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
You know, do you remember the feeling when you came here?

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Well, no, I was six months old. Oh never mind,
I remember no feeling.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Never mind. Yeah, that'd be a small miracle, ya, No.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
I mean the first memory of San Francisco really was
probably playing a gig there for the first time with
my band Radish. You know, like in the nineties, I
had this s grunge band. I was in high school.
I was fifteen, and yeah, we went on tour.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
What was the origin of Radish, by the way.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, the origin of Radish kind of goes back to
me sitting at the piano and writing songs. Okay. So
I always say the Beatles made me write songs and
Nirvana made me start a band, and so I'll never forget.
I was actually at the skating rink in Greenville, Texas,
and smells like teen Spirit came on, and I remember

(15:16):
exactly like where I was, like making this turn at
one end of the skating the roller rink and I
literally had to pull over and like hold onto the sidewalks.
I'm like, what the fuck is this? Like this is
the coolest music I've ever heard, And so I skated
around a lap back to the DJ booth and I
was like, what is this? And he pulled up the

(15:37):
CD with the little baby on and the dollar bill.
I was like, dude, this is band Ravana. It's really cool.
I was like yeah, And so, like I went to
the record store the next day and got that CD,
and I was like, all right, well I need to
start a band like this, you know, game over and
I figured that all you need to have is three people.
You know, bass, drums and guitar is the bare necessities.

(15:59):
It's like, you know, every stool, every chair like needs
a minimum of three legs. It's like, well, okay, rock band,
it's kind of the same thing, and so I started,
you know, in my town, there weren't a lot of musicians,
but eventually I met a drummer and bass player who
were great, and we had different band names, but eventually
it became radish and so I got to kind of

(16:22):
back up a little bit. So, you know, small town
kid in Texas writing songs, how do you even you know,
get out there?

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Right?

Speaker 2 (16:30):
And I started trying to get gigs. Literally, I'd look
in the Yellow Pages and like look for places to play.
In Greenville, Texas was a dry town, so there were
like no clubs or bars. But I would call plays
like the Bowling Alley and be like, hey, I got
a band, can we come play? And They're like, no,
we're a bowling alley or like Putt putt golf. Like

(16:52):
I'm just trying to think of any place where like
I could set up my band, you know, And eventually
there was this pool hall called Chauncey's Place. And dude,
I might have been like twelve or thirteen at this time,
and I remember calling Chauncey. I would just cold call people.
I mean, like I was little entrepreneur, dude, like at
twelve and Chauncey himself picked up the phone. I was like, hey,

(17:16):
my name's Ben. I got this band called Radish and
we really would love to come play a gig. He's like, well,
y'all any good. I'm like, yes, sir, we're really good.
And I was like, in fact, I can play you
a song right now over the phone. Oh way, and
he kind of chuckled because he was like in his
fifties or something. He's like yeah, He's like, okay, go ahead,
you know what I mean, because he was just getting

(17:37):
a kick out of this whole thing. And so, you know,
old school like holding the phone between my shoulder and
my ear, grabbed my guitar and I play him a
song and he's like that is pretty good. All right.
Next Thursday, you got your own gig, you know. And
so that was our first concert. That was in nineteen
ninety four. I still have the flyer wow for it.

(17:57):
And so then eventually that led to gigs in Dallas
and we started playing in the Dallas scene a lot.
And in the nineties there's a neighborhood in Dallas called
Deep Elam, which is iconic neighborhood for music, and in
the nineties it was really a great place, a great scene,
and I pretty much spent every weekend. As soon as

(18:18):
I got my driver's license, I would just go there
for the weekend, just like watch shows or play shows.
Tripping Daisy the Toadies, like a lot of great bands
were out of that scene.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
And Tripping Daisy was the precursor.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
To Polyphonic Spree, right, exactly amazing, And so you know,
we started playing gigs. Now, Meanwhile, there's a really important
part to my story because we didn't you know, it's
like we didn't really know anyone in the music business
except one person, and this person is so crucial to
the story. So rewind back to the sixties. My dad's

(18:52):
a drummer in high school and it's the high school
talent show and my dad's band plays some cover songs
or whatever, and then this kid gets up the next
act and does an accordion a medleyon accordion of Beatles songs,
and it's like incredible, and everyone's like, oh my god,
that was Who is this guy? And so they went

(19:14):
and introduced themselves. His name was Nils Nils Lofgren. So
it turns out, you know, Nils Lofkin is one of
the best guitar players of all time. He plays in
the East Street Band with Springsteen. He has played with
Neil Young, Crazy Horse like just such a legend. Also
has an incredible catalog of solo records which I also

(19:36):
grew up on with my dad playing those. So Grinn
is like the coolest like garage rock band ever that
no one knows so good. I'm so happy you mentioned that.
Just made my heart. Loved the shine. So my dad
and Nils became friends. My dad had the basement, so

(19:57):
they started a new band called the Radical Five. They
were also a trio, just three of them, but they
thought that was cool, the Radical Five, but there's only
three Like that was psychedelic, bro, you know what I mean.
And so they would play my dad's basement. My dad
would tell you, oh, well, I was never good enough
as a musician to really do music, so he and
he always had this thing for being a doctor and

(20:19):
went on to do that. But Nills and my dad
stayed in touch through the years, and so like, whenever
Nils would come through town, we would always go and
see him in Dallas, and so like my first concert
was Bruce Springsteen in the East Street Band, born in
the USA Tour nineteen eighty five Reunion Arena, Dallas, Texas,
Like holy shit, wow, you know. And so Nils was

(20:42):
like my contact, like he you know what I mean,
Like he was like, Okay, this is someone who's doing
the thing that like I want to do. And so
ever since that first song I wrote when I was eight,
I would make little cassettes and send them to Nils,
you know, and just be like Nils like, check out
you know these songs I'm writing. And he was always
so sweet, you know. I'd call him and be like

(21:03):
what do you think. He's like, oh, it's great, Ben,
Just like keep doing it, keep writing, you know what
I mean. Yeah, So fast forward back to the nineties.
Deep LM. Radish is getting more serious. We're playing gigs,
doing the whole thing. We did make like a cassette EP.
And then CD became a thing that you could do

(21:23):
like yourself, you know, like it became possible to duplicate
like you know, five hundred or one thousand CDs like
that was the thing. It was kind of expensive, but
it was attainable. So we saved up money and we
pressed our first CD, and so of course I sent
it to Nils and I guess it was on his
coffee table. He was making an album at the time,

(21:47):
and the producer was walking by, you know, through the
living room and was like, oh, what's the CD? And
he picks it up and the photo of the CD
was like three young kids behind bars, Like we thought
that would be a cool album cover. Yeah, we're tough,
you know, rawdug. So he's like, who are these kids?
And Nil said, oh, well, that's my friend's son's band,

(22:07):
you know. And this producer put it on and really
liked it. And so then we get a phone call
at my house.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Who wasn't the god you know.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
His name is Roger Greenawaltz, an extremely talented producer, probably
one of them I've had many mentors, you know. Roger
is up there with Nils like in like, well, he
calls and says, hey, can I speak to Ben? And
so my parents are like, oh, yeah, sure, who is
this though, you know, and he's like, well, I'm working
with Nils so and they're like okay. So I speak

(22:36):
to Roger and he says, hi, Ben, And he had
kind of this you know, grandiose voice was really cool
for me. But being a small town kid. I was like, whoa,
this is crazy. He's like, Hi, I'm Roger Greenawalt and
I'm producing Nils Lofgren right now, and I just heard
your CD and there's this song that I really love.
I want to come to Texas. I want to rehearse

(22:58):
your band. We're going to record a three song demo
and I'm gonna shop it around to major label record companies.
And I'm probably fourteen right now, and so I'm like, Okay,
I'm thinking to myself, I have no idea what the
fuck you just said, but sign me up, because like
this sounds like the best thing. This is exactly I
want to leave school, Like I want to play music.

(23:20):
This is it, you know. So Roger came to Texas
like during spring break or something, and we rehearsed every day,
and he would tell the three of us, He's like,
I'm taking you guys to art school right now. So
it's like the first time we ever worked with anyone
with you know, any kind of producer. And so he
would do things like one day, he'd walk in one

(23:40):
day and be like, Okay, today, John the drummer, he'd
be like, all right, we're gonna remove the rack Tom
on the floor. Tom, you don't get any symbols. All
you get is snare kick and high hat and so
like the whole day, that's all you get to work with.
He would do things like limiting us, you know, and
like taking away and just teaching us. And then as
far as songwriting, you know, he taught me what the
relative minor is, which is a whole concept. You know,

(24:03):
if you're in the key of C major, the relative
minor is a minor, which is that second chord and
heart and soul. So like I already knew what I
was here. I could hear it all, but I didn't
know how to put it to words and so like
things like that. So anyway, we recorded this three three
song demo and he starts sending it around and before
you know it, like the phone starts ringing off the

(24:24):
hook at my parents' house and it's like all these
major label record companies and so then you know, they
loved the demo. They're like, well, but we hear he's
really young, you know, like we got to see if
he can really perform. And so then we had to
go do the showcase, which is like this is like
some classic nineties shit that I'm talking about right now

(24:46):
because this is like so many people did this formula,
you know, but it actually worked for my band, which
is kind of nuts to think about. So we went
to New York and we did three shows. It was insane.
Friday night was at CBGB's and so like my first
gig in New York, you know, outside of Texas was
at CBGB's, and Saturday night was at Coney Island High,

(25:11):
which I don't think is there anymore, and then Sunday
was at Don Hills, which I'm not sure if that's
there anymore, but they say that On Friday night it
was like all the A and rs from the labels,
and then they would they left CBS and we're like yo.
They would call their boss, like the head of A
and R say, Yo, this band Radish. You got to
come tomorrow night and see them at Coney Island High.

(25:34):
And so Saturday night it was the A and R's
plus the head of an R's. After the Saturday show,
the head of an RS called the presidents and we're like, yo,
you got to come see this band Radish. On Sunday
they're playing at Don Hills. This is what I was
told you know like this is all the legend of
it all sounds right, and so on Sunday night, I
remember our lawyer, Jonathan Aralick. He after the show at

(25:55):
don Hills. He was like, I've never seen this before,
like and this is like this attorney was at a
huge law firm like that represented Madonna and Springsteen, like
big big stuff, and he's like, you had every president
of every major record label was in that room. Like
it was kind of nuts. And so we ended up
signing with Mercury Records, and the album it like didn't

(26:20):
really do much. It was like, you know, classic big
budget major label thing. I remember, like really funny because
I I remember I was fifteen, and I remember the
publicist from Mercury would come to me all the time
be like, Ben, you have to stop dyeing your hair
different colors because like we're spending so much money on
press shots, like no one's gonna know what you look like.

(26:41):
And I was like whatever, you know, like stuff like that,
like just and we went to the UK and actually
had like a hit song in the UK called Little
Pink Stars. The like did really well, and we did
like Redding Festival. We'd sort of faith no more over
there in Europe, and then it was time for our

(27:01):
second album. But at this point Mercury was bought by
PolyGram and it was like all these corporate mergers, and
then it eventually became Island def Jam music group who
didn't really give a shit about Radish.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
It's unfortunate. You guys were really cool. I mean, I
don't want to say unfortunate because that ends well, but is
what it is, like of all the sort of post
you know, there was a lot of those posts Nirvana groups.
Most didn't I don't feel got the proper signal from Nirvana,
you know, like they did a version of Nirvana that

(27:37):
was like not that great, right, and whatever whatever you
guys took from it was really actually really it felt
like the spirit of it continued, you know right on Maneah.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Well that's cool to hear. You know, Nirvana really was
always my favorite band, but it was like also the Beatles,
so there was just definitely like this melodic thing that
I was obsessed with.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
What was your family thinking they were?

Speaker 2 (27:59):
They were so supportive. I mean that is like the thing,
you know, it doesn't make sense, but it also kind
of makes sense because if you look at the timeline,
like back to eight years old. Like by the time
I was fifteen, you know, it's the whole ten thousand
hours and you're an expert thing, right, Yeah, Well, like
I was already like just so deep in my path,

(28:20):
so like when it was time to go perform in
New York, and also I was just so I had
so much confidence, you know, and determination, and my parents
were just like, well, this is what he's doing. And
they were so supportive.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
And you were kind of out on your own. Was
anyone accompanying you on those.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Shoe So that's a good question. I mean I remember
when it was time to go on tour, you know,
well we called Nils and was like, okay, well what
do we do, you know, like we need like a
crew or something. And so Nils's guitar tech, Michael Mtuzac,
we called him twos Two's was our chaperone slash tour manager,
slash guitar tech you know, slash driver. So two's another mentor,

(29:02):
you know, taught me the code of the road and
how the road life is.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
You know.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Also, Nils did an interesting thing when the record deal happened.
He called my parents and was like, I need Ben
to go to AA meetings. I didn't drink. I didn't
do drugs, but he was like, as a preparatory situation,
like he should go to AA meetings and like hear
stories because there's gonna be a lot of temptation out there,

(29:28):
and you know what I mean. And that was kind
of a cool thing. So I would go at fifteen
to the local AA meetings and sit around with like
these old people who are smoking cigs and you know,
drinking coffee, and I'd just chill with them and listen
to stories. And that must have been helpful, you know.
I never got lost in drugs and alcohol. I always

(29:49):
just really stayed clear about the music.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Wow, that's amazing man, So thanks Nels. Yeah, that's an
incredible support man.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
So what's funny And I didn't mention it, but like
in the Radish time, when all the labels wanted us,
you know, we did the New York thing with the showcases,
then we to go to LA to meet the West
Coast labels. And at that time it was Maverick.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Records, which was Madonna right.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Madonna's label, and Guyo Siri was running that and Freddie DeMann,
who was Madonna's manager Interscope. So Jimmy iveen with Interscope.
Jimmy had a party at his house in Malibu, and
so it was some famous fight, like a vander Holyfield
fight that only like you know, ten people could pay

(30:37):
per view in America, and like Jimmy had it piped
into his house straight from Vegas in the theater room.
As it was a party for everyone was going to
watch this fight. I didn't even not many people watched.
It was just a party, right, But it kind of
blew my mind. That was a moment at fifteen years old,
coming from Greenville, Texas, where my only understanding of pop

(31:02):
culture was MTV, the radio and like Rolling Stone magazine. Right,
so we get it. We walk into Jimmy's house and
it's me and our drummer and my dad and the
drummer's dad, like you know, and so we're hanging with Jimmy.
It's like early afternoon. There's a few people there. Dre's there,

(31:26):
and so we're like, well, that's fucking cool. And so
we're like hanging with doctor Trey. I think my dad
smoked a joint with doctor Dre in the in the
limo actually, because he had his Limo just parked out front.
But then like later as people started showing up, it
was like Axel Rose, Robbie Robertson from the band who
my dad was most stoked about. He was like, dude,
you know who that is. That's Robbie Robertson from And

(31:48):
I'm like, I didn't know who the band was yet,
you know what I mean, Like all I knew was like,
that's Doctor tre that's Axel Rose. Holy fucking shit. You know,
Joe's strummer from the Clash was there. What the nineteen
ninety seven swimsuit calendar Sports Illustrated girls were there, And
of course Jimmy knew that I was a huge petty fan,
and he was like, hey, Tom's gonna come later too,

(32:10):
you know, he said he's coming, and so I was like,
oh shit, this is incredible. But it just like blew
my mind because like from my existence in Greenville, texts
is like Doctor Dre and Axel Rose are in such
different lanes. They don't even know each other. In my mind,
I'm like, that's just different worlds, but all being in

(32:30):
the same room. That's when I realized, I'm like, oh wow, okay,
so actually they are the same like there, this is
like showbiz, like they're entertainers, they're artists, and like of
course they know each other because like who else can
relate with this life, you know.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
What I mean.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
So like it kind of was real eye opening for
me because as a consumer, you just see everything as branded, right,
and that's what I guess people want, but it's it's
we're all.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Exactly separate. This this doctor drad gets fed to that
audience and be audience exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
But it is funny because Jimmy came up to me,
He's like, all right, Ben, Tom's on his way, and
I was like, oh fuck, I'm so nervous, you know,
to meet Tom Petty. And so like I walked out
front and I sat on like the stup like like
the steps right outside of the front door, just waiting
like I don't know why, like I'm at this like

(33:28):
party at some dude's house, Like I don't need to
go out there, but like in my mind I'm fifteen,
I'm like, I'm just gonna go sit and pretend like
I'm not doing anything. Sure enough, a rolls Royce pulls up,
Rick Rubin gets out of the driver's seat and Tom
gets out of the passenger seat and they walk and there,
walking towards me, right to the front door, and I

(33:49):
remember just sitting there and like them both being like hey,
and just walked by me and entered the house. And
so I'm just like looking around and I'm like, Okay,
I guess I'll go back inside the party now, like,
you know, like what was I doing?

Speaker 5 (34:07):
Man?

Speaker 2 (34:07):
And so I go back in the party and uh,
and Rick walks and he goes and sits on a couch,
you know, and he's like talking to people, and Tom's there,
and at some point Tom walked by me again and
he was like, hey, man, do you have any weed
on you? And that was like the one moment in
my life where I'm like, God, damn, why don't I

(34:28):
have any weed on me right now? But I love
that like of all the people he's asking, like the
fifteen year old, he looks year olds, probably got.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
Some weed on him.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
And so I'm like, no, man, sorry, He's like all right,
it's all good. Then later he we circle back, you know,
and see each other, and he's like, so, Jimmy's telling
me that, you know, you're a really good artist, you know,
And I'm like, well, I don't know about that. But
he's like, well, you know, never sell your publishing. I'm
like okay, He's like, I sold my publishing. They gave

(35:02):
me ten thousand dollars. I thought I was rich. I've
never made a dime off American girl. It's like damn,
Like that's raw, you know, and we just start talking.
So you know, it was just like sweet of him,
like you know, just like going straight to some business
like bullet points for like this young kid, you know,
like he was like trying to teach me some shit.
And then later the party's sort of dying down. And

(35:24):
this is another thing like at that time in my life,
like I was just so hungry, you know, and I
would take my guitar with me everywhere. I would play
for anyone at the drop of a hat. I want
to get back into that mindset, by the way, Like
I've been thinking about that a lot, Like there's something
so beautiful about like when you're a teenager and like
you're just naive and all you care about is the
one thing you love, you know, which in my case

(35:47):
was music. So of course, like why wouldn't I just
go everywhere with a guitar and like, why wouldn't I
just play for anyone, anywhere, at anytime. You know, I
love that there's something so beautiful that kind of goes away,
or it did for me, you know.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
I think Neil still has that. And that's why bother
because when you're around Neil, you realize, yeah, there's something
going on in them like that, it's just there and
you don't want to take them out of you. I
got that, yes.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
So they were like, hey, kid, play us a song.
And so I was like all right. And so I'm
sitting in this chair and there's a couch to my
left and to my right and this big like crystal
coffee table that's probably like you know, six feet long,

(36:34):
and then a chair on the other end. And so
it's like me, Tom Petty's to my right on the
couch with other people kind of standing around Joe Strummers
where you're sitting like on the other side of the
coffee table, and just other people kind of around right,
and they're like, all right, play us a song, kid.
I'm like, all right, pop open my guitar case, pull

(36:54):
out my acoustic I start playing a song. I finish it,
and they're all like whoo you know, clapping and like
screaming like that's awesome, blah blah. And so I hand
my guitar to Tom and I said, Tom, play us
a song. It's like all right. And he said the
coolest thing to my fifteen year old small town brain.

(37:16):
He said, this is a Bech song. And I was like,
oh my god, Tom Petty listens to Beck like I'm thinking,
you know what I mean, like this is so fucking cool,
and so again like I just shattering, you know, genres
and like realities of marketing and all the shit that
were fed right and the lanes and the categorical nonsense. Yes,

(37:40):
like yeah, like, oh, he's so cool. Tom's cool. He
freaking knows about Beck like that was you know. And
so not only does he play a Beck song, he
plays a Beck song I had never heard before, asshole Wow,
which was on One Foot in the Grave and which
I didn't which of course I went and found like
the next day, you know, at Amoba Records or whatever.
But he plays this song that I never heard it,

(38:02):
which is such a really unique chord progression. Everyone out
there should listen to this song. Then Tom says Joe
and hands my guitar to Joe's drummer, and so he's like, ah,
fuck off everyone, and they're all like, no, Joe, play
play London Calling. Play London Calling. And I'm like, what's
London Calling because I didn't know the class yet. Wow,

(38:25):
you know, And so they play London Call. It's like,
oh fucking twas fuck.

Speaker 6 (38:29):
And then he starts going to dank gank gank gank
good dank gank gank gang good dank gang, London Calling girl,
and everyone's singing London Calling, and it was just such
a vibe and then he like you know, does like
a verse in of chorus and then he stands up,
hey kid, catch and he throws my guitar across the

(38:52):
you know, million dollar coffee table, and I stand up
and I catch it boom and I sit back down
and then I played another song. So that was like
my first time in Los Angeles.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
I don't know if show business gets any better than that.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
That's kind of the epitome, right.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
And Jimmy wanted you guys on Interscope.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Yeah, it was Interscope. He wanted us really bad, you know,
and he's the one we should have signed with. Like
if you look back and really analyze everything. He's the
one that probably would have been the right move. But
you know there everything is right like meaning like yeah,
like no regrets, like I'm so thankful that like history

(39:35):
played out the way it did, and then I was
able to have my solo career, Like I'm just happy
with the way things are, and even if I was unhappy,
that's still how it is, which we can get to
in a little bit of like how things go down
in life.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
We'll be back with more from ben Queler. After the
break between Radish and Shasha. Your first solo period, Yeah,
what what was happening in terms of your your songwriting
and your development.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Well, I started to write a lot more autobiographical songs
a lot. I started to really develop sort of I
guess what the Ben Kueller sound is, which is just
very sort of on the nose, straight up direct it
is what it is. And also when you write for
a band sometimes there's like a feeling like, well, it's

(40:28):
like everybody in the band has to kind of vibe
with the song you write because you're representing the band
through these songs, right, And so a big moment that
happened in that period was I met my wife Liz.
So Radish needed a bass player and a producer. We
were working with Bryce Gogin, amazing producer. Did like all
the pavement stuff, a bunch of Lemonheads records.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
That I love.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Bryce heard about a bass player in Boston, Josh La Tansi.
So me and John David Kent, the drummer from Radish,
we fly up to Boston. We auditioned Josh. He's great.
We're there for a few days. One of the nights
he had a gig. He was playing with a band,
so we went to the start to watch him on
stage and you know, check out his gig. And at

(41:12):
that gig, he introduced me to all of his friends
and Liz was one of the friends.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
So I meet Liz and we just hit it off
like it was like we knew each other from another life,
like another you know, kind of just an energy thing.
It's nineteen ninety eight, and she said, oh, you're from Texas. Cool.
I'm actually coming through Texas. I'm going on a road
trip with my best friend Anna and we're coming through Texas.

(41:40):
I said, oh, well, you got to stay at my
place and she's like, oh perfect. Meanwhile, you know my
place is my bedroom at my mom and dad's house,
because you know, I'm seventeen at this point, Liz was
twenty two, and I don't think I mentioned that I
was seventeen. Looking back, She's like, I totally assumed you
were at least eighteen, because you're like on a business
trip in Boston, like with your band, like it was

(42:02):
you know what I mean, Like didn't realize you were
like a high school dropout, and so they eventually got
to textas and the rest is history. Really, I mean,
I think maybe a month later, I told my parents, Hey,
I'm you know, most of my friends are going to college.
I'm not going to go to college. I want to
get closer to New York, keep pursuing music. So I'm

(42:25):
going to move to Connecticut and live with Liz. Because
she left Boston had to go back to Connecticut where
she grew up, and so I moved to Connecticut and
lived there with her in her childhood home, and that's
where I started writing this new body of work. So
I would go into New York City because Radish still

(42:47):
had this contract with Mercury, but really now it was
Island def Jam Music Group, and I would talk to them.
You know, like, hey, you know, we just made this
great album with Bryce Gagan at Muscle Shoals, Alabama. And
it was funny because like I'm trying to tell them,
like how good this album is. Meanwhile, it's like it
was like a double album, eighteen songs like really deck

(43:09):
and like just me spreading my wings, you know, and
they're just like, it's never going to come out. Basically
it never did, and in fact, actually we're going to
release it. We're working. That's a project we're working on,
like the unreleased Ratish album, which and what's really cool
about that record is that there's like four songs on
it that I ended up re recording for Shawsha. And

(43:32):
at that time, pro Tools came out with this product
like a do it yourself It was called like the
Inbox and it was like a do it yourself record
at home situation because I had like a Taskam cassette recorder,
but this inbox thing was new, and so I started
recording songs in my apartment in Brooklyn. We left Connecticut

(43:52):
moved to New York. So I made a CD called
Freak Out. It's Ben Queller and we pressed up a
thousand because I looked around the room. I'm like, I
don't have a band, it's just me, so that I'll
be Ben Queller. I'm solo. So I started playing gigs,
just like you know how I started as a kid,
like just calling around, and I started getting gigs in

(44:15):
the Lower East Side. And then there's another band starting
called the Strokes, and we become friends and playing gigs,
and the Moldy Peaches are starting. So now it's like
early two thousands right in New York, which was a vibe.
And one day I get a phone call from Evan
Dando of the Lemonheads, which was a complete hero of mine,
like up there with Kurt Cobain and the whole thing.

(44:37):
So cool. So I get this message, Ben, this is
Evan Dando calling. I can't stop playing this freak out record.
Give me a call back bye. And I was like,
oh my god, holy shit. So I call Evan back.
I'm like hey, it's Ben Cohler. He's like, hey, dude,
you want to go on tour? And I was like,
yes I do. He's like, great, pick me up at

(44:59):
the airport tomorrow at twelve and we'll head up to
Boston for a show. And I'm like okay, I'd like,
I don't know, like it's like he also just needed
someone to pick him up at the airport. And so
I throw my guitar in the trunk of my Volvo
and I drive to the airport pick up Evan. And
for like four or five months, all I did was

(45:21):
open for him. And so like all of my first fans,
as Ben Koehler, were Lemonheads fans. Yeah, and also like
this is the other thing, is like Evan calling me
was such a moment because up until that point, it
was just like business people that were kissing my ass
and like, you know, we're gonna make you a stock kid,

(45:43):
like you know, that was just so fickle and flighty
and you know, not real at the time. But Evan
calling me was like the first person that I an
artist that I actually respected and looked up to and
wanted to be appeer with, you know, And so that
was like probably the most meaningful bullet point, you know,

(46:03):
in this timeline. And so then from there it was
like he introduced me to Juliana Hatfield, I'd start opening
for her, and you know, then Jeff Tweety got a
copy of Freak Out, and so it just like started
becoming a thing. So meanwhile, I would take these flyers
to the Island f GM Music Group office of like,
hey guys, I'm opening for Wilco and or the Lemonheads.

(46:25):
They would be like how are you doing? Like how
are you getting these gigs? You're not ready, You're not
ready to you should be rioting and demoing.

Speaker 5 (46:32):
You know.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Like I was in there and I'm like, well, I'm already. Meanwhile,
like you know, I did make this bootleg CD without
telling anybody, you know what. I was just like trying
to hustle it.

Speaker 5 (46:41):
Man.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
So one day I was at a gig opening for
Evan and Ben Lee was also on the bill where
we became friends, and this guy came up to me
after the gig and said, hey, my name is Michael McDonald,
not from the Doobie Brothers stuff, Like yeah, yeah, my
name is Michael McDonald and I just started a record
company with Dave Matthews. It's called Ato Records, and we

(47:04):
really want to sign you. We want you to be
our first worldwide signing. And I was like, Okay, let's
do it. And so the day I got Radish basically
departed from Mercury. Ben Kuehler signed on to ATO Records
and those early days was that's two thousand and one
early days at Oh yeah, it was the first worldwide
they had licensed to the David Gray album, which did

(47:27):
amazing in the US. And uh so then we went
in and recorded Shasha.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
What was the process of making Shasha with ATO as
sort of your label, was it?

Speaker 2 (47:38):
That was cool? Yeah? We recorded in New York at
this really famous studio called Seer Sound, which used to
be the Hit Factory back in the sixties. John Lennon
did a lot of solo work there, so we showed
up day one. We worked with a great producer, British producer.
It's funny actually my first three albums were all produced

(47:59):
by British. British Yeah, kind of a thing, you know.
That's that's my that's my sixties British invasion. Yeah. So yeah,
we recorded. I mean at that point it was Josh
who was in Radish, you know, who introduced me to
my wife, and then John David, the Radish drummer, was
the drummer, so it was kind of Radish was the band.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
For different at least from the stuff that got released.
I mean, you're singing solid changed quite a bit bit
sure for sure.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Yeah, because I mean, like the Radish stuff that was
released is this album Restraining Bolt, which was like our
sort of major label debut, And yeah, I definitely like
had that sort of classic American singer thing from the
nineties that you're kind of sounding British, you know, you
know I want to Fly Take Me to the Sky.

(48:50):
You know, that was like, oh so common in the
post grunge era. I kind of outgrew that by the
time I went in and made Shasha.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
I Thank god the way you developed it seemed like
it was a really original style.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, well, you know, and I embraced the piano, you know,
because like in the Radish there was no piano. I
just played guitar and sang, but you know, like pianos
were it all started for me as an artist really,
and so I had these songs that I loved on
the piano, in other words, falling. There were just some

(49:25):
real good piano songs, and I just knew, if I'm
going to be a solo artist, piano is equal to
guitar in my book. You know, It's a fifty to
fifty thing kind of in my world. And also it
being a debut album, and knowing knowing who the hell
Bend Coelor was, Like, I really intentionally made the track

(49:46):
listings just sort of unique and eclectic, you know, a
rock song into a folk song into a seventies piano
ballad and the psychedelic like trippy thing. You know, I
love so many types of music, and I didn't want
to just be one thing. I wanted to just kind
of show people a little bit of everything, like all
my flavors. Here's all my flavors, and then stay along

(50:07):
for the ride, and I'll make a bunch of albums hopefully.
That's kind of what in my mind that was like
the game plan.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, you know, you might get a lot of flavors
on it, maybe like a maybe Elliott Smith would be
another person who you might get a rock song and
take a more of a folk into a piano ballad
into but in no way sounds like an Elliott Smith's
record either. You know, Beck was.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
An artist who really like would do that sort of
like back and forth a bunch of different stuff. And
I always loved his early work, like all of his
work's great, but you know, at that time, definitely was
inspired by a lot of his early stuff. I just
not even inspired by, but just like I really like
fucked with it, and like like I related to what
he was doing, you know, like I would listen to

(50:48):
back and be like, oh, I feel like I know
that guy. Like we you know, it was relatable to
me and probably like millions of other people who listened.
But you know, that was just in my little world.
But then also artists like you know, Neil Young or
Tom Petty like you know, and particularly Neil I would say,
you know, going back and forth from piano to guitar.
But then Nil's Lofgren, I mean, and if you listen

(51:09):
to his first solo album, which is just called Nils
Lofgrens Great, underrated, amazing album, you know he kind of
switches between guitar and piano. So naturally that's kind of
I just as a kid, was like, that's kind of
what you do in rock and roll. You play a
little piano here, you play little guitar, then you sing
on both those songs. You know, Yeah, that's what ties

(51:30):
it in as the voice.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Did you ever get feedback from from Dave as like
an artist like today?

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Dave actually would come to the studio when we were
recording Shasha. We had a lot of hangs with Dave. Yeah,
it was great. He was so fun to be around.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
And yeah, would he give input or was he like
hands off and just kind of letting you see?

Speaker 2 (51:47):
He was pretty hands off creatively. I remember he would
talk about like video ideas, which is really fun, Like
this song in other words, one of the piano songs.
He was like, we need to go because it mentions
butterflies in the song, and he was he was like,
we gotta go. There's this place in Mexico where the
butterflies like come alive at a certain time. Like I'm
just picturing the video now, like let's go, and I'm

(52:09):
thinking my mind. I'm like, well, dude, you're Dave Matthew's
like you can go anywhere to shoot any kind of video.
But I'm like kind of like this guy that's never
put out a solo record, Like, you know, I don't
know if that's on the budget.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah yeah, yeah, at but is Dave Matthew subsidizing this?

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Yeah you really want to spend it on a video?

Speaker 5 (52:26):
You know?

Speaker 2 (52:27):
What a great guy. I mean, we had some great
times together. It was really fun. Early days Ato.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I was not so much pain attention to the mechanics
of how things worked at that time. But I remember
the Shasha record and me and all my friends really
loved that record. We were in bands at the time,
you know, and just trying to figure things out. And
then I just remember at some point, and you can
correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a memory
of like there being commercials on TV for like On

(52:55):
My Way, like your next album, Like yeah, it was like, whoa,
this guy's getting big.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
That sounds familiar. Actually, there was something in so ATO
Records went through RCA Records that's just for just au
and stuff, and I think there was something in Ato's
agreement with RCA that like if an album Ato puts
out does certain numbers, you know, one hundred thousand units

(53:21):
or more whatever, then the next album upstreams to RCA,
Like RCA was like, okay, well that's good enough for us,
so you know, we want to be involved. And so
I think and and Shasha hit that target whatever it was,
and so then for On My Way, r c A
definitely got involved. And I do remember there were some
commercials at that time that I don't remember what they were. God,

(53:44):
I'd love to find them be fun to watch.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yeah. Same. I don't exactly remember what they were, but
I just remember thinking that it was that's wild, like, Okay,
there's a I'm finding out, there's a new ben coming
from my TV. That's cool, bizarre, like was unexpected, you know,
And that's a really that's an amazing album.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, thank you. I love that album because it's very raw.
And that's Ethan John's behind the wheel on that drive,
the recording console. And yeah, we didn't even use headphones.
We just set up standing like right in front of
the drum kit, two guitars and a bass player and
in a little circle and just played everything live. So

(54:23):
we played really quietly and without headphones. You got to
play quietly to really hear each other. This really interesting
way to record. My guitar player at the time was
Mike Stroud, who one of the best guitar players I've
ever known, and we toured together. He eventually went on
to form Ratatat, which is such a cool group. Yeah, yeah,

(54:43):
that's Mike Stroud. So if you go back and listen
to on My Way album the guitar solo, so Mike's
and the right speaker, I'm in the left speaker, so
the guitar solos on the Rules and Disaster, like those
songs are basically Rattat guitar player. You know, half of
rat Attat is that record. So it's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
So, you know, On My Way kind of kicks up
to the level of URCA feeling like we can we
can deal with this kid. You know, also like kind
of broke through commercially to a degree. Yeah, and then
you do your self titled record.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah, So you know, I'm always an interesting documentation because
it's like really raw, like no overdubs, no headphones. It
was just a band playing songs, you know, and it's
really got a cool vibe to it, which is kind
of maybe in hindsight, unfortunate because like it had the
biggest push from the labe from RCA, you know, but
we delivered like this album that was like super low

(55:39):
fi and you know, very vibey, but like definitely no
hits on it kind of a thing, you know. But
my third album, I really wanted to do something really
expansive and just very layered, and I heard a bunch
of instrumentation and I met with Gil Norton, great producer
in London, and we were talking about the album. We're

(56:01):
talking about tracking it and okay, like who's going to
play the instruments? And I'm like, well, I got my
bass player, Josh and you know John David, you know,
played on the first two albums, and we can do
Mike Stroud, you know, and guitar or something. And then
Gil was like, who's playing on these demos because we
were listening to some of the demos I made. I said, oh, well,

(56:21):
I played all the instruments on the demos. It's like,
oh may. He's like, well, have you ever thought about
recording the album just you? I was like, well, no,
not really, but it sounds kind of interesting. He's like, oh, man,
I think that would be really fun. He's like, I've
only ever been in the studio with bands, so it'd
be really kind of fun to just work with one

(56:42):
artist and just like this does it all? Like you know,
we could just like layer everything up, and so that's
what we ended up doing. So he came to New
York and we recorded this little studio called the Magic Shop,
and it was like a musical playground. They had two pianos.
They had two grand pianos, a black one and a
white one. One was in tune. One was out and

(57:04):
we had him like facing each other like Yin and yang.
It looked pretty cool, and so we purposely kept one
out of tune. Then you got the organ, and then
there's a glock and spiel, and then at the other
end is the drum set and then here's a wall
of amps. We set it up all in a circle.
Because there's only going to be one source being played
at any given moments, you don't have to worry about

(57:25):
bleed or anything like that. So it was just like,
what do you want to record? Whatever you're inspired to record,
you just press record and pick up that instrument. So
it was really cool. So like every track, it's very
piano heavy. Every song pretty much it's like we would
do a take of the intune piano, take of the
autitune piano, then we'd add like glock and spiel. It
definitely has like this sort of like there's like a

(57:47):
Springsteen feeler, like more of like a Jeff Lynn style,
just layered, you know, one hundred acoustic guitars, but it
all kind of comes together into one sound in a
really unique way. Also, at that time, Liz was pregnant
with our first child and so we're living in New
York and that was an interesting dynamic because we were

(58:10):
the first of our peer group to actually have a baby.
That was kind of like an interesting you know, because
like up until that time, you know, it was like
touring and rock and roll and going staying out late.
You know, you don't have to answer to anyone, you know,
and so like now it's like, oh, we're pregnant, we're
having a baby, which we're so excited about, and now
I'm in the studio by myself. So it was like

(58:32):
kind of like one of the most liberating recording experiences
but also one of the most lonely. But it also,
I feel like, has some of my best songs. It's
got this song called thirteen, which is sort of one
of my best love songs, I feel.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
So that was my self titled album, and then after that,
as a songwriter, you know, whenever I would write a song,
I would put it in my sketch books. I would
always make lists of songs like buckets. I call them,
like different buckets of songs. They're each buckets an album
a potential album, I guess. And growing up in Texas,
you know, we talked about how you know, it was

(59:08):
all Beatles, British Invasion and then Nirvana. But then there's
the third pillar of my musical lineage, which is the
music that would be playing around me, like when I'd
go to Walmart or like sitting at Applebee's having lunch,
and that would have been the class of eighty nine

(59:31):
country music, Garth Brooks, Alan Jackson, Travis Tritt, all that stuff.
So like, there's like definitely a lot of country. So
I would write country songs, even going all the way
back to Radish. I would just sometimes you can't help
what you're right, you know, it just pops out and
I'm like, oh, that's a cool country song. So I'd
put each one of those in this country album bucket.

(59:53):
So after the self titled album, I'm like, Okay, this
will be my fourth album. I have like ten songs
here that are really good country songs. So that's going
to be the next one. And so I called it
Changing Horses. I decided, oh, well, I made the first
three album New York, maybe I should go back to
Texas for this one. And at that time, the band Spoon,

(01:00:16):
their drummer Jimmy, you know, he had just built a
great studio in Austin called Public Hi Fi, and Jim
was like, dude, come down here to Austin, make the
record of my new studio. You'll love it. And so
we rented a house in Austin for a few weeks
and we recorded Changing Horses, which is one of my
personal favorites that I've made. It's so unique, and you know,

(01:00:38):
I call it a country album. It very much is.
It's got pedal steel and doughbro all over it, played
by this amazing musician, Ben Kidderman. But it's my flavor
of country. You know. It's a Ben Coehler album, like
for sure. So we made that we go back to
New York. It turns out that the Changing Horses was
the last album for Ato Records. In the contract, we're

(01:01:00):
back in Brooklyn and Liz is like, man, life was
really nice in Austin. And Dorian, our son was born
before this. So actually when we came down to record
Changing Horses, Dorian was with us. He was like one,
you know, So when we're back in Brooklyn, she was like,
life was really easy in Austin. You know, having a
baby there was super easy and cool. And so we

(01:01:24):
decided to move to Austin in two thousand and eight
or nine. So we get to Austin. I always, in
the back of my mind knew that I wanted to
have a record company because I've just always been a
record nerd and I've just been obsessed with recording other
people and loving bands and records and the whole thing.
And so instead of renewing with ATO, I told him,

(01:01:47):
I'm like, hey, I love you guys so much, but
down in Austin just had a baby. I'm like, just
changing up everything. I'm going to start my own record label.
So the Noise Company was born, and that was in
twenty ten, and we put out an album for me
called Go Fly a Kite, which did it for an
independent release. For our first release, did really well, ended

(01:02:10):
up getting nominated for a Grammy for Best Album Art.
I will say a non music Grammy, but hey, it's
as my publicist said, dude, we can still say Grammy
nominated artist. But really proud of that release because artwork
is always actually really important to me, the aesthetics and
I just love the tactile, you know, experience of an

(01:02:32):
album and a record and so yeah, so we did that.
We discovered this great band wild Child signed them. So
that's it. So now that this is our like real
community at this point, you know, the locals.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Can Can you talk a bit about Dorian and your
relationship with him.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Dorian, it was a lot like me,
just very musical, super creative, and we joke that like
in second grade, he was given you know, at the
end of the school year, every kid gets award for
some different thing, and he got the friend to all

(01:03:12):
Ward and he really was you know, he wasn't concerned
with mundane, just sort of everyday stuff that most people learn.
Like he like, you know, we'd be having dinner and
he'd be like, Mom, this is amazing chicken, and she'd
be like that's beef, and like, you know, and that
was like when he was like, you know, a teenager,
you know, like he just never learned the difference between

(01:03:34):
Like he didn't care if if you were like conservative liberal,
like what, like, none of that shit mattered to him.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
He was just like he just saw you for you
and if he jibed with it, all good, if not
all good, like you know what I mean. He just
like did his thing and he was like a true connector.
I mean it's amazing. Like the funeral, so many people
showed up, Hundreds of people showed up, Like we met
so many kids that would just come up to us

(01:04:04):
and say, you know, Dorian reached out to me and
like brought introduced me to these people, like he would
put people together and just like people have come up
to me since, like you know, we're friends because of Dorian,
like we never would have known each other or and
in all different scenes from like the skaters to the
band nerds like cool uncool again, like none of the

(01:04:27):
just people. You know, that's all it was.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
For him, seated.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Yes, we started, you know, he started making music like
in his bedroom here and dripping springs. Like when we
moved here full time, he really started playing guitar a
lot more, and I would hear him in his bedroom
coming up with original stuff, and I'd go in and
we'd talk and be like, dude, that's cool. Like then
he started learning fl fl Studio, which is like the competitor,

(01:04:53):
you know, it's one of these like recording softwares, but
it's like a real hip hop like a lot of
the hip hop producers use FL And he loved hip hop,
and so he started making beats. I mean, he would
like the incredible beats would be coming out of his bedroom.
I'd be like, dude, like this stuff is so good.
And then the last piece for him as an artist
was like his voice, Like he's started finding his voice

(01:05:16):
and it was such a like soultry sort of his
voice tone is a lot of people are like, oh god,
he sounds just like you, but really, if you listen,
it's actually a deeper register than me. It's a lower voice,
and it's like very raspy and just sultry is like
the word I always think when I think of his singing.
And he was like, Dad, like I want to put

(01:05:37):
out some of these songs. And so we started like
he would come over here to the barn and I
would sort of help him mix stuff. And he decided
he wanted to release his music under his middle name,
zev Zev, which means wolf, and so we started dropping
songs like as Zev you know, on Spotify, and it

(01:06:02):
was just so cool, you know, and he was sixteen
and it was really interesting, Like there was this period
of time where he just would we would have these conversations, uh,
you know, at dinner. We'd always have dinner together as

(01:06:22):
a family, Me, Liz, Judah and Dorian. And for a
minute there, like there's this like two week period where
he was constantly like god, guys like mom, Dad, Like
I just feel so weird, like I can't fit it
all in, Like I need, like Dad, we need to
be putting out a song like every Friday, Like let's

(01:06:44):
I want to put out his song constantly. And then
of course I'm like trying to explain well, like you know,
Spotify really prefers if it's like a four week ramp
up period and then then you got to pitch it
to editorial like all the bullshit that is driven into
our brains, you know, as professionals, and you know, he
but he's just like, no, dog, like I want to
I need to be dropping a song a day, yeah,

(01:07:05):
you know in his mind. And he but just this
interesting vibe where he was just like but yes, a dad,
like I need to put out music. He's like I
need to go hang with my friends. But like then
I feel bad, like I want to hang out with
you guys, you know, like, and I just can't fit it.
Like there was this weird thing that was happening, and
then one day Liz comes home, and she's like, God,

(01:07:28):
everyone who drives a black pickup truck is an asshole.
We're kind of like, really, okay, ha ha, like what
like she like, so she kept seeing these black trucks
that were like, I don't know, like running off the
road or like. She kept having these weird things, these
mother instinct vibe things.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
So one night we're sitting around the dinner table and
Dorian's it's like a Monday or Tuesday. It's school night,
and he says, Mom, Dad, I'm gonna go over to
Dylan's house after dinner and skate. And they're like, oh, okay. Well,
and Liz kind of gave it to him a little bit.
She kind of went into the thing of, well, Dorry,

(01:08:09):
you know you have that test this week at school.
You probably haven't studied, Like you need to study for that.
It's a school night, like you really need to start
thinking about your future, like you really need to start
getting your act together and like get serious about school,
you know, and just kind of giving him that talk,

(01:08:30):
and he was so sweet. He was like, yeah, I
know you're right, but I'm still gonna go to Dylan's
and skate. You know, we kind of like chuckled, and
we're like okay, you know, and so then he's like,
all right, love you guys. So we have dinner. He leaves.
Then Judah, me and Liz were watching some lame show
on Netflix. I don't remember what it is because we'd
never watched it since this night, and he always was

(01:08:54):
home by nine, and so it's like nine thirty, right,
and Liz said, hey, call Dorian, make sure he's heading home,
you know, by nine thirty. I didn't really want after
the whole conversation we had at the dinner table, I
didn't want to be like, dude, good look, you know.
So I looked on Find my app or whatever to

(01:09:16):
see his iPhone see where it was, and I saw
the blue dot was heading home on McGregor Lane in
Dripping Springs, and so I'm like, I told Liz, I'm like, oh,
he's on his way home. I see him. He's good
and she's like all right, cool. As we keep watching
the show, and like twenty minutes later, he's not home,
and he would have been like ten or fifteen minutes

(01:09:38):
away from home. So that was a little weird. So
I pull up Find My and the dots in the
same spot that it was when I looked twenty minutes ago,
and so I stood up and I'm like, hey, something's
not right. I'm gonna go check on Dorian, like maybe

(01:09:58):
flat tire or something or you know what I mean.
I'm just like anything. And there's like not really good
cell phone service over there. That's you know, we're in
the boonies. So like I know that road, and and
so I hop in the car and I just like
race down because you know, it's like every parent's worst
nightmare is that thought. You always think.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
This is a thought.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
It's always a thought. Be the worst of the worst
is what you think, and it never happens luckily, and
so you know, but I'm having a feeling, so like
I'm fucking speeding, racing down, and it was kind of
first weird thing was there were no deer on the side.
Usually at night out here there's you'll see deer on

(01:10:42):
the side of the road or see it's kind of
you know, but there was like the seas were parted.
It was a kind of the only thing I can
think of is like there were no animals. There was
one car that kind of drove towards me, that passed
me on the road at one point headlights and then
I'm just like hammering down and I make this turn

(01:11:03):
and I'm going on straightaway and I see all the lights, blue, red, flashing, spinning,
and I'm like, oh, fuck, okay, what something's up. I
race up fire trucks, cop cars. There's a little red
car on the side of the road with a young

(01:11:25):
lady standing there, shell shocked, just kind of standing by
her car. I pull right up to there's cones. I
jump out of the car. I start running towards the
police and everybody. I'm like, where is he? Where is he?
He's my son? Where is he? I look to my left,
I see the car. The door has been cut off.

(01:11:45):
He's not in the car. So I'm like, oh, and
so then a big officer, whoa, whoa, whoa, sir, sir, sir,
you're not allowed to be here. This is a you know,
active investigation, the whole thing. I'm like, where is he?
He's my son, I'm his father, Like what you know?
Where is he? And he was like, sir, you don't
want to go over there, And I'm like, what do

(01:12:06):
you mean, Like, hey, I do want to go over there,
Like I'm his dad, you know, like you don't know me, Like,
I appreciate you trying to do your job, but like
if my like is he dead, you know? And he said,
you don't want to go over there. That's how he
answered me. And so I knew. So I call Liz.

(01:12:28):
You know, I'm just like, honey, you gotta get down here.
And it's really bad. And she said, what it is
the worst scream I've ever heard through the phone. Her
and Juda get in the car the other Luckily we
had two cars, and her and Juda race down and yeah,

(01:12:49):
and Dorian was dead. Car crash, the red car that
was there. This young lady, she said she was driving
and Dorian was in front of her, and she saw
a big black truck driving toward them, and the black

(01:13:12):
truck went into Dorian into their lane. Dorian tried to
correct to the right. A month prior, we had that
huge freeze. This is twenty twenty three, there was some
crazy blizzard freeze in Texas that kind of made the news,
you know. So there were all these broken branches. The
weight of the ice would break branches and so the

(01:13:34):
side of the road was littered with these branches. Okay,
broken branches Dorian swerved to the right, and a branch
happened to be exactly at his head height, pierced through
the windshield and hit him in the head and that
was it. Instant, didn't feel a thing, didn't even probably

(01:13:55):
know what the hell happened. And so the girl in
the red car basically saw him swerve, but also thought
that maybe he just turned into a dry and then
when she went by him, she saw no, there's like
a car in the woods, and so she freaked out,

(01:14:16):
called nine one one, Thank god she was there. She
you know, called nine one one. They said the black
truck might not even know what happened, like it could
have been just like kind of didn't see what was going, like, oh,
kind of swerved and then you know, you don't think
that like just a little action is going to like
kill someone. So we don't know who was driving the
black truck. And like, also it's probably good we don't know,

(01:14:37):
like I don't, you know, like that's just it is
what it is, and hopefully they don't have any clue.
That'd be a lot better to live with just not knowing.
So yeah, so that was when my life really changed.
Driving home, the three of us instead of the four
of us, you know, wof And finally one of the

(01:15:01):
guys let me go see him. It's like, I have
to see him. And they apparently when they got to
the scene, they tried to resuscitate him. He was so
gone instantly, but they had him in the middle of
the road covered in a blanket, and I lifted the blanket,
I saw him and kissed him, and then the judge came,

(01:15:22):
the local Hayes County judge to pronounce him dead. It's
like all the craziest stuff, you know that I find
myself saying, like this stuff, it's unbelievable. I mean, everyone's
devastated at this scene. You know, I just lost my
sixteen year old son. And the judge said, if you
need anything, twenty four to seven, here's my cell phone.

(01:15:44):
And then of course they're like, what are we doing
with the body? And I'm like, well, god, like, I
don't even know what we're doing with my parents when
they die, like, let alone my son. So I need
to think this through. Now this is really weird. Rewind
four years. We're here, we just bought the property, and

(01:16:04):
we're hanging with my mom and dad and we're talking
about end of life, you know, we're talking about. Okay, Mom, Dad,
like what do you guys, Like, where do you want
to be buried? Like, you know, in the spiritual side
of me. And I think the way I am is
because I'm an artist and I've lived in chaos my
whole life since i was a kid thrown into music.
I really crave order and a schedule and a routine

(01:16:27):
and consistency. I really crave it, you know, So conversations
like this is kind of I think part of me
trying to like know what the hell's happening. So having
this conversation with my mom and dad, like, well, we
got these two plots up in Maryland, you know. I'm like,
well that sounds lame, like I don't know, And I
was like why. I know, Like I've heard of like

(01:16:47):
family cemeteries out in Texas, you know, like on ranches
and stuff, and so I started looking into it four
years ago and I'm like reading the criteria and I'm like, okay,
like we check all the points, like you have to
when when you create a cemetery on your property, you
have to basically section it off and survey it. It

(01:17:08):
becomes a detached from your property and becomes Parkland, Texas state. Well,
it's private parkland, but it's part of the state of
Texas at that point because like who knows what happens
to your property, but the cemetery is forever told my
parents and Liz, I'm like, dude, we could actually do
like this family cemetery. And they're like really, like that's
a little morbid. I'm like yeah, but like it could

(01:17:29):
be a thing, like then we'll all know like where
we're buried. And and the boys loved this, by the way,
like Judah and Dorian were all about having a cemetery
because they were like, oh in like ghost stories and
like you know, like just like cool like boyshit, you know,
kids stuff. And so we actually hiked around, the three
of us to like try to find our spot. And

(01:17:52):
so we seriously found a great spot for our family cemetery. Okay,
that was years ago. Then everyone's like, dude, kind of
give up them, and I'm like, you're right, it's a
little weird. So I moved on from that. So we're
driving home, We're like, what the fuck do we do?
And Liz said, well, we should call the rabbi. And

(01:18:13):
that's when you realize like, oh yeah, like priests and
rabbis like, no matter what you think, times like this
is when you realize they serve a really good role
in this world, you know. Yes, And so we called
Rabbi Folberg, who bar Mitzvah Dorian, who's been part of
our lives ever since we moved to Austin, you know,
since he was a little baby. So I called Rabbi Folbrog.

(01:18:36):
I'm like, you're not going to believe this. Dorian's dead
car crash. And so he introduced me to this funeral director, Mitzi,
who is incredible through the process. And so I get
on the phone with Mitzi and she's like, oh, Austin's
very populated cemeteries. She's like, I'm like, this is kind

(01:18:58):
of weird, but like, have you ever done a family burial,
like on people's property? And she's like, oh, I did
one in West Texas. Once I said, well, I know
this sounds weird, but like I already know I researched
this a few years ago and I know that we
qualify to do it. She's like, oh, well, that takes
like months, you know, to approve for the state to

(01:19:19):
approve something like that, and She's like, but you told
me that judge gave you his number and said call
him twenty four to seven. He's like, if anyone can
make something like this happen, it would be that judge.
So it's like, okay, So I called the judge of
Hayes County and I said, Judge, it's mister Queller, Dorian's dad.

(01:19:40):
I know, you know this is a little strange, but
we can do a family cemetery on our property. I
just I never set that up, you know, like it's
that is we want to bury him here on the ranch,
can we? He said, ah, he said, dude, that takes months.
You know. He's like telling me the same thing. He's like,

(01:20:02):
but he said, let me make a call. We'll get
back to you. So an hour later, the judge calls
me and says, mister Queller, your son was so important
of this community. The state of Texas is going to
green light this. Just get him into the ground and
we'll deal with the paperwork later. And that was the
first moment where I felt like I could control something.

(01:20:24):
Because when something like this happens and it shatters you
so wide open, it's complete chaos, and it shows you
how little control we have over anything, and so for
me to be able to call a shot, you know,
was like just it was everything in that moment for me.

(01:20:46):
And so then Jewish custom, you know, you're supposed to
get the body in the ground pretty quick, twenty four hours.
We don't do embalming or anything. You go in a
pine box that just you know, goes back into the earth.
Very simple, very you know. And so I called Mitzi
from the funeral home. I said, and I'm like, well,
who who digs the grave? You know? And she's like, well,

(01:21:09):
you really just need someone who can dig. She's like
there's a specific measurements. She's like she's rattling off the
measure She's like it needs to be like seven feet long,
by this and by this depth, you know, real deep.
And I was like, I know who I'm gonna call.
Bobby Stevens, the dude who moved the house here, who
moved the barn here. Yeah, he exactly. So I called

(01:21:32):
Bobby Stevens and word it guy. I mean people knew
at this point. This is maybe a two days later
or something. And I called Bob, having, Bobby, have you
ever dug a grave before? And He's like I can't
say I have, but I would for you. And I
was like, I just start crying. I'm like, oh, Bobby,
I'm like, all right, dude, bring your whatever, your back

(01:21:55):
ho or tractors, you know, your digger, bring it over,
you know. And dude, that guy dug the grave. So
before you leave, we'll walk over to that spot. I'll
show you. So now this is acred land like it
already was, but it's like it's like such another level
for me to be creative here and like and Dorian

(01:22:18):
was just trying to get home and so we were
able to bring him home and he's here so we
can go sit with them. You know. We got his
picture up over the door. He's always looking down on
us and so yeah, he's still with me.

Speaker 3 (01:22:31):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
We'll be back with more from Bankweller. How did you
guys as a family process or not process or continue on?

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
Well, they say God only gives us the things we
can handle. And I believe that. It's really funny, like
all the cliches and you find as a father, like
you know, it's there's so many cliches you hear, like
when you you know, have kids, like oh, someone will

(01:23:10):
tell you you're having your first baby, and they're like, oh, man,
savor every moment, and you're like, hey, you know, but
like all the cliches are so true. You know, That's
what you realize as you get older, right, and just like.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
The priests and rabbis, Yeah, you sometimes lived your life
not considering them.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
No, but like actually like not liking them and whatever reason.

Speaker 1 (01:23:30):
You know what I mean, And then you realize there's
a moment where you need them, and cliches like tradition
in that way, cliches are really this just universal thing glee.

Speaker 2 (01:23:40):
And so there's that one. You know, someone told us,
you know, well, God only gives us things we can handle,
and and maybe that's true, and maybe it was always written.
You know that Dorian was only going to live to
be sixteen. And luckily Liz and I were so strong
and our bond with Judah and Judah and Dorian were

(01:24:02):
so close. And my mom has a theory that we
choose our parents like that, like you know, before you
you're born, you get kind of they're like, hey, you
can go to these parents or these parents, and you
kind of get your soul gets to decide, and so
it's kind of this interesting fun game to kind of
think through of, Like, so Dorian souls about to come

(01:24:25):
to earth and they're like, well, so there's this Ben
and Liz. You know, the dad's a musician. You always
wanted to be a musician and you weren't able to
really do it in your past lives. But this one's
gonna could be really good for you. Dorian. You're gonna
have this little brother, Judah you're gonna really love. But
the bummer is you're only going to live to be sixteen,

(01:24:47):
you know, So it's gonna be like a short bang
like you know, but dude, you're gonna do so much
and you're gonna make such a big impact, and that
Judah is gonna be good. Like we're making it where
Judah is going to be really strong so he'll be
able to handle this. Your parents have already been through
dimer tragedies. You know, your mom lost her mom when
she was eight. So like that, I like to kind

(01:25:09):
of game that out. It's again, it lets me feel
like everything is okay because it was meant to be
that way.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
Yeah, so it's a really beautiful thought.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
So yeah, how did we handle it?

Speaker 5 (01:25:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
We just one step at a time, one breath at
a time.

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
As a musician, How did it impact you creatively?

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
So immediately, absolutely zero drive or desire to create anything.
That's actually thinking about cliches. That's actually one cliche that's
always been false, at least for me, you know, the
one where they say, ah, to make good art, you
got to be depressed and fucked up, and I may
I don't even make art if I'm depressed and fucked up.

(01:25:52):
I actually have to be in a good state of mind.
So when this all went down, I'm just on the couch,
like we're just mourning and it's so horrible. And so
I think it was only you know, maybe a few
months later when when song ideas start coming to me
and I wanted that music. Songwriting has just been the

(01:26:14):
one thing in my life since I was eight years old.
That's been the constant, you know, through everything, and so
I was really happy when a melody came to me
or a phrase idea or something. I'd walk out to
the grave, you know, be like, dude, send me some songs, man, Like,
send me some cool ideas. Dude, Like let's keep this going,

(01:26:34):
you know, like let's write a song together, you know.
And so I would. I started writing, and so that
became this new album which is called Cover the Mirrors,
and I call it sort of a moody album, but
maybe it's not. I'm really bad at talking about my music.

(01:26:55):
I really know nothing, but to me, it's a moody,
sort of down tempo album. There are some rockers and
there's some like up tempo things, but generally for me,
it's definitely like a somber feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:27:08):
Do the songs directly deal with your loss.

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):
Or yeah, yeah, I think they all do. They all
definitely to me touch on all the aspects of what
I've gone through since losing him. The casual list and
you might not hear every reference being like, oh yeah,
that's about he lost his son, but it is. You know,

(01:27:32):
still I have most of the same emotions that I
did prior to losing him. It's just this big wound
in my heart, you know, that's the difference now. But
I'm still like the same guy. And talking to other
people that lost children has been a great help for me.
And there's one guy that I spoke to and he

(01:27:55):
told me something really interesting that was, you know, I
hate to tell you this, but but like now you
have a superpower. You never wanted it, but you have
it now. And what it is is like your normal
happiness scale, Like happiness is kind of here up here,
and your sadness is like down here. But now your

(01:28:16):
happiness is way up here, but your sadness is way
down there. And also your like spectrum band of empathy
has just increased. And so like it's like this weird
like what you've lost everything, but you've also gained this
new superpower. That's always explaining it to me. It's kind

(01:28:39):
of interesting because I feel that, and so it's kind
of been fascinating too, like just in the songwriting process too,
and just like lyrics and I don't know, they hit
differently from me, you know, certain ideas and concepts.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
Well, I mean the new album is really it's really beautiful,
you know, thank you, not only just the writing, but
there's a depth that sonically and in your voice and
in the chords and yeah, just anthing to it that's
really just sounds gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (01:29:13):
Oh well, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:29:15):
Would you mind if you're up for playing breaks?

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
Whoa Breaks?

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
It's one of my favorite songs from it so far.
I mean, you know, I'm so.

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
Happy you want to hear this one because I've actually
never performed it before, so this is the first time
to sing this for anybody. This is called breaks.

Speaker 3 (01:29:38):
When you think about being away from you want to
you convince yourself it'll be okay, but it's not being
u at first, it's enough, but time makes it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:05):
It's the breaks. It always breaks a.

Speaker 3 (01:30:10):
It's the breaks, it always breaks the hard.

Speaker 4 (01:30:15):
It's the ticks.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
It always takes, feeling that wakes, the moment that the
falls a pr Yeah, A word sounds sweet. On the
other end of that line, I'm paralyzed by the state

(01:30:43):
arm in lou it's in.

Speaker 4 (01:30:47):
My mind, my crag.

Speaker 5 (01:30:51):
Z min crazy haze in mind.

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
It's the breaks, it always breaks the hard.

Speaker 4 (01:31:03):
It's the breaks, it always breaks. The hart. It's the text.

Speaker 3 (01:31:09):
It always takes, the feeling that at a wakes, the
moment that it falls apart. Yeah, walking hotel always like
Olympic tracks, shoot after shoot, talking to myself to stop

(01:31:35):
and stretch my back, just boiling for you.

Speaker 4 (01:31:44):
For two There's absolutely nothing I can do because it's
the breaks.

Speaker 3 (01:31:52):
It always breaks the hart. It's the breaks, it always
breaks the hard. It's the takes, it always takes the
feeling that awakes the moment.

Speaker 4 (01:32:06):
That it falls Apard.

Speaker 5 (01:32:10):
Yeah, same phone call.

Speaker 4 (01:32:19):
What you do today?

Speaker 5 (01:32:21):
Cool?

Speaker 3 (01:32:23):
Gotta go? How could all those hours give us nothing
to say? I never know.

Speaker 4 (01:32:35):
My day.

Speaker 3 (01:32:37):
Move slow still, they give me nothing. I can't show you.
But the breaks it always breaks.

Speaker 4 (01:32:46):
The harr Yeah, the breaks, it always breaks.

Speaker 5 (01:32:51):
The harr.

Speaker 4 (01:32:53):
It's the takes.

Speaker 3 (01:32:54):
It always takes, the feeling that awakes the moment that
it falls. Oh yeah, I want to see the world
through your eyes again. Want my friend standing by, Wanna

(01:33:20):
touch a body, Wanna kiss your skin, tuck in, nest
on mine, hand on your chest, and cry.

Speaker 4 (01:33:34):
Cry baby cry.

Speaker 3 (01:33:38):
It's the breaks, it always breaks, the hard. It's the breaks,
it always breaks, the hard. It's the tikes, it always takes,
the feeling that awakes the moment day falls apart. It's
the breaks, it always breaks. The hard Yeah, the breaks,

(01:34:03):
it always breaks the hard.

Speaker 4 (01:34:06):
It's the eggs and make you feel the wounds that
want to heal.

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):
From way too much time.

Speaker 7 (01:34:13):
Apall cry, Babby cry, cry babyaby, cry, cry Babby crying.

Speaker 1 (01:34:30):
Yeah, it was really beautiful man, Thank you for requesting
that one. That song. It's like it's like the course
is already good. With the it's the breaks always break.
I mean, I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
I don't even know, like grammatically if it even makes
itse like. But so I've like thought this through, you know,
because I got called out on a song once. I
was hanging out with some friends and William H. Macy
was there. Oh I love this guy, legend Yeah, And
I played my song Run, and in the chorus of Run,
it says, since I I was fifteen, I have ran

(01:35:13):
everywhere you can run, and Macy was like, I don't
know if that's correct. Since I was fifteen, I have ran.
It's I have run everywhere. But but I have ran
sounded so much better than run, do you know what
I mean? And so now ever since then, I'm like
really think through my lyrics in a different ways. I

(01:35:34):
always think of Macy And so with the breaks, that
always breaks the heart. So I'm calling the song breaks
b R a k e s like the breaks of
a car, you know, like the stopping of it. And
then it's those breaks like it's the stops right right
that then breaks b our eaks heart. So That's where

(01:35:58):
I'm coming at it from.

Speaker 1 (01:36:00):
That bit is so loaded, but then it goes somewhere else,
and so then it becomes even like this more rich
song because it because in the the changes on the
it's the takes that I was taken. It's do lyrically,
but it takes.

Speaker 2 (01:36:16):
Changes, takes the feelings that awakes, the moment that it
falls apart.

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
It's so simple, but it's there's so but it's so.

Speaker 2 (01:36:23):
It's like this like uh, cathartic. I get into this
meditative state on that song, you know, And it's actually
it was around the self titled album. I think I
was saying, how you know, I was like really like
zeroing in on my songwriting in a way, and kind
of I felt like on that album, I finally felt
like I found I found Ben Kuehler's sound like Run

(01:36:48):
was kind of the beginning of that. But there's this
song Penny on the Train Track and thirteen where it's
like I just went through this moment where I just
kept writing verse after verse and but still with like
a poppy chorus.

Speaker 1 (01:37:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:03):
Breaks is sort of one of those songs where it's
just it's definitely a story. You're in the long ride.
It's like, Okay, buckle up, this is gonna take a second.
I hope that it keeps the listeners attention. I mean,
that's another thing, is like I never want anything to
be I don't enjoy making overly self indulgent music, you
know what I mean, And like I am a firm

(01:37:24):
believer of like don't boris get to the chorus and like,
if you're gonna say something like it better be good. So,
I mean, I hope that And that's sort of a
challenge when I'm writing a song like breaks. I want
to take you on a journey, but I like, every
word's got to mean something, whether it literally means something
or the rhyme of it is interesting enough to just

(01:37:47):
keep you listening, you know. I want it's kind of
a fun trick to see if how long I can
keep your attention.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
Yeah. So it's a great song.

Speaker 2 (01:37:54):
Thank you. I really I am really flattered that you
chose that one for me to play. And this one, now,
this one was like a very private song and I
even recorded it when no one was here, like I
just set up to my and then we built it
on top of that vocal and guitar performance the strings.

(01:38:15):
That's another thing about Cover the Mirrors as an album
that's different for me from my past albums, is that
there is a lot of strings on this album. You know,
I've had songs over the years where it's like maybe
an album will have like one or two songs that
has strings, or you maybe have one ballad with strings.
But this one, almost half the album has strings. And

(01:38:36):
it wasn't intentional. I just kept hearing these string parts
in my head now looking back, and when I listened
to it, there is like this sort of dare I say,
like a funeral element, memorial vibe that just because of
that sound, I don't know, but I love it. I
mean it's really comforting. Also, like the lead violinist on
all these tracks as a friend of mine in Austin

(01:38:58):
Warren Hood, the best violinist fiddle player ever, so good.

Speaker 1 (01:39:05):
You know what's interesting us who talk about or write
about music often boil albums down sometimes for finding an
easy way to just reference something like that album is
this and you just come up with this very But
do you do that with your own album?

Speaker 3 (01:39:23):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (01:39:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
I like think like Shasha is like okay, that was
the opening debut, like a bunch of different types of
songs on one like here I Am and I can
do like these different things on my Way is just
like garage rock. Just right there, band in the room,
press record on the tape machine, let it run, do
three takes, pick your favorite and move on. Ben Koehler.

(01:39:50):
When that's me playing all the instruments, that was me
really layering and going for a very lush sound and
just there's a lot going on in the speakers of
that one, and then of course changing horses. I think
of that that's the country.

Speaker 1 (01:40:03):
Album, you know, Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
I am figure. I mean, this is I guess I'll
maybe in a years think of it as like the
Dorian album. I mean, because it is. It's the first
music I've made since he died.

Speaker 1 (01:40:15):
So well, I did want to ask to just you
mentioned thirteen a couple of times. Yeah, that's that's d
Seron's favorite song of yours.

Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
Ye it is, man, it's so sweet. Ed is obsessed
with that song. I think also one of the things
he really loves about it is like it's like an
anti pop song. There's no chorus to that song, like
it really is just verse verse. It was so fun
to write that song, and that was I finished it

(01:40:46):
in the studio when I was doing the self titled album.
So Gil was there in the control room, I was
in the live room. I had the opening phrase, We've
been in the rain, We've been on the mountain, We've
been around the five And I just kept writing verses,
and I had like a sheet of paper for each verse,
and I would shuffle him around on the floor and

(01:41:08):
to create eight, What's verse one? What's verse two? And
I orchestrated the like I knew that the first verse
and the last one. So I knew I was going
to end in the taxi when you told me you
loved me, and then I wasn't alone. I knew that
was it. You got to have your book ends, at
least in my mind, that's you know. If I have that,
I'm good. And then so I just orchestrated each verse

(01:41:29):
and what number you know, when they appeared. Ed has
been a friend now of mine for many years. We
met funny enough. It was like a Thursday. I was home,
I was here. I got a call from a booking
agent and she said, hey, BK, are you in Austin

(01:41:50):
tomorrow Friday? And I said, yeah, I'm around. She said,
can you open for Ed Sheeran? And I was like, yeah,
I mean I guess so like what happened?

Speaker 5 (01:42:00):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:42:01):
She's like, well, the opening act is stuck in Australia
something with immigration and like the passport and isn't going
to make the show, so can you fill in? And
I was like sure. So I showed up to the gig,
like I sound checked. I just played solo acoustic and
I sound checked, and his crew's like getting the stage going,
and there was just one guitar stand and one guitar

(01:42:23):
and I remember asking his crew guys, I'm like, so,
where's like all the back line, where's the band? He's
like band? What band?

Speaker 1 (01:42:29):
Man?

Speaker 2 (01:42:29):
He just played solo and I was like, oh no, shit,
like we're in an arena, you know. And I was
like that is so great, Like I love that because
I love performing solo, and so many times as an
artist you're told like you gotta bring a band on
or like Saturday Night Live didn't let Ed play solo
on Saturday Night Live because they were like, you gotta
have a band. So even Ed had to like get
a band just to do Saturday Night Live, you know.

(01:42:52):
But anyway, so I was like good for him. So
then anyway, we ended up meeting that night. He came
up to me after my set and he was like, dude,
and he was like, what do you are You? Can
you come to Dallas and open tomorrow in Dallas? And
I'm like sure, And so I did Dallas and then
he was like, can you do Oklahoma City? And then
eventually he was just like, just do the rest of
the tour. The other guys can't make it. And so

(01:43:13):
I ended up doing this whole East Coast run with
Ed back in twenty fifteen, and so we became close friends.
And he called me when him and his wife Cherry
were getting married and I was like, mate, can you
play thirteen at our wedding as our first dance? I

(01:43:34):
was like, I'd be honored, you know. So we did
that and it was really fun, and I just remember
in a haze that night during the party him stumbling
towards me with Harry Styles and their arms are around
each other, and Ed comes up to me. He's like,
this has ben fucking quella, Harry. Can you believe that

(01:43:56):
song thirteen that he played earlier? And Harr's like yeah, man,
and Ed's like it doesn't have a fucking chorus, and
then Harry's like, yeah, wow, like a song without a chorus,
Like they were just like loving that, and I love that,
you know what I mean, because I mean these are
like so two of the biggest pop stars in the world.
Like if you don't have a chorus, you're done, you know, Yeah,

(01:44:17):
And I think that's one of the reasons. You know,
it's obviously like very heartfelt song and you know, it's
like taken straight out of my love life with Liz.
And then I think, you know, people like Ed and
Cherry can relate with that, and you know other people.
But from a technical standpoint, I just loved that he
loved that it doesn't have a chorus.

Speaker 1 (01:44:39):
That's incredible. Man. Well, hey man, thank you for having
me out and being so generous with your time and
with your music, and.

Speaker 2 (01:44:48):
Well, thank you for having me on Broken Record of course, honor.

Speaker 1 (01:44:54):
In the episode description, you'll find a link to a
playlist of some of our favorite Bank Collor songs, and
be sure to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken
Record podcast to see all of our video interviews, tunes,
and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the
Broken Record pot. You can follow us on Twitter at
broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah
Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan.

(01:45:17):
Our engineer is Ben Tolliny. Broken Record is a production
of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others
from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is
a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free
listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin
Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show,

(01:45:39):
please remember to share, rate, and review us on your
podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.

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