December 9, 2025 • 55 mins
When Chicago released their debut album in 1969, they blended brass, jazz sophistication, and rock power into something completely their own. By 1975, when Chicago IX: Chicago's Greatest Hits arrived, the band had already amassed an extraordinary catalog of songs that captured both the experimental spirit of the late '60s and the pop sensibility of the '70s. That compilation became one of the best-selling albums of the decade, introducing new listeners to the band's range while cementing their legacy.
Now, Chicago is celebrating the 50th anniversary of that landmark release with an expanded edition that offers fans a deeper look at this pivotal moment in the band's history.
On today's episode, Bruce Headlam talks to Lee Loughnane and Jimmy Pankow of Chicago about recording their early albums. They also discuss how they came up with the idea of incorporating a horn section into a rock band. And they explain why after being on the road since the 70’s they don’t even bother to unpack their suitcases anymore.
You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite songs from Chicago HERE.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
When Chicago released their debut album in nineteen sixty nine, they,
along with bands like Blood, Sweat and Tears, Sligne, The
Family Stone, and also James Brown and the JB's, We
defined what a band could be, blending brass, jaz sophistication,
and rock power into something completely unique. Over the next
half century, the band became one of the most commercially
(00:40):
successful acts in American music history, with a string of
hits that remained staples of classic rock radio even today.
By nineteen seventy five, when Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest Hits, arrived,
the band had already amassed an extraordinary catalog of songs
that captured both the experimental spirit of the late sixties
with the pop sensibility of the seventies. That compilation became
(01:01):
one of the best selling albums of the decade. Now
Chicago is celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of that landmark release
with an expanded edition that offers fans a deeper look
at this pivotal moment in the band's history. On today's episode,
Bruce Headlam talks to Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco of
Chicago about recording their early albums. They also discussed what
inspired them to incorporate a horn section into a rock band,
(01:24):
and they explained why after decades of been on the
road since the late seventies, they don't even bother to
unpack those suitcases anymore. This is broken record, real musicians,
real conversations. Here's Bruce Headlam with Lee Locknane and Jimmy
(01:45):
Panco of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
We have Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco. Hello, two of
the original members of the Great band Chicago to composers, arrangers,
but I think most importantly two members of the brass section,
because that is what really drove so much of that
(02:08):
horns with the horns.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Actually hid one of the greatest guitar players away from
being top.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Ten recognized as a great guitar player.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I think people recognize, well, they recognize him, but it
was really he came in second to the brass when
we were really up there popularity wise.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
And I do want to mention the third member of
the National Brass Yes, Walter oh Walt Perizader. I feel
he's here in spirit, yes, so we talk about all.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
You know, he was a big part of this. He
actually came up with the idea you know that wound
up becoming Chicago. We were students at Deepaul University and
Walt and Danny Sarafin and Terry Cath were members of
a club act that we're working at Chicago, which we're
kind of.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
On the way out.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
And Walt knew Lee and I at Deepaul University and
he approached us with this, Hey, you guys, what do
you think about this idea? Because we used to go
to the Pussycat and sit in with them. They were
called the Missing Links, and Lee and I would go
show up.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
I played every now and then. Yeah, what kinds where
they play Top forty? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Yeah, everybody that played We played Top forty when we
were We were a club act before we left to
go to California to make records. But he approached us
with this idea, what do you guys think about a
rock and roll group with a horn section that's like
a main character?
Speaker 5 (03:42):
You know?
Speaker 3 (03:42):
How can we We were thinking of going to Vegas
and playing those like side clubs rather than the big rooms.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And somebody told me that he got that idea from
a Beatles song, Got to get You into My life?
Is that true?
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Well? I don't know I don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
We did a cover of Got to Get You Into
My Life and the clubs as well as Magical Mystery
Tour Little Help from My Friends, and I kind.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Of recorded it me because I played bass on Little
Help From As You did boo boom.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, that was it true. He said from the beginning,
it'll be a democracy.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yes, well, we all thought the same thing. We just
shook hands and let's do this.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
We met wals apartment and agreed to devote all our
energy and time to this idea.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
And you know we should.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, And he said you can only leave two ways,
you ask out or you die.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Right, Yeah, A little final for me.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, yeah, Well I'll want a decision by the end
of the podcast for both of you. Guys.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
What are you going to do next?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah? So you are in New York. Your Chicago band
you you Mad you Bones in LA. But New York
is where you recorded I think your first two albums. Yeah,
you have fond memories of New York. I was a
fifty second What kind of studio is that?
Speaker 4 (05:05):
It was a multi story office building and they had
several studios on several floors and uh we.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Food aid shift and Simon and Garfunkel had it at
the day.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah, we were We were the new guys, so they
gave us the graveyard shift. Simon and garfunk recorded all
day and then we started recording at midnight and wound
up going back to the hotel.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
The only people on the street were the garbage drugs.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Go back to the hotel with a triple decker sandwich
and you never good to go.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Oh yeah, the stage deli.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Oh yeah, And did you meet with Simon and Garfunkel
while you were there? Did you?
Speaker 5 (05:45):
Actually? I never saw. I'm met Art in the elevator.
Really yeah. I was coming to work and he was leaving. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, we just had kind of two ships in the night,
you know, but we did.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
You know, Jimmy.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Gercio was producing us, and he got close to Roy
Hallie who was producing Simon and Garfriend and they traded
notes and Roy actually came down and assisted in some
of the recording techniques.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
No, no kidding.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Yeah, he added some of his expertise, and he also
knew the board at CBS very well.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Well, he knew the board, but he wasn't ready for
rookies to come in. He left the project pretty quickly
because we were learning how to record. We knew how
to play these songs backwards and forwards because we'd been
working with them in the various clubs that we played,
but we had to learn how to record, how far
(06:45):
to stand away from them, you know, being worried about
Oh my god, I can't make a mistake because this microphone,
the thing is in my way here.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, it was quite intimidating, you know. And I say this,
you know, in performance, knowing that this was going on
tape forever.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
We better do this right.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
But you had producers to set up the room. Oh sure,
but still it took a lot of figuring out.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's just a matter of the actual playing the instrument
to that thing and then going into the control room
and listening to it backing on. Oh so I have
to step back a little bit on this to do
a better blend, a natural blend. I mean, they can
do it electronically and with the with the everything inside
(07:31):
the control room, but it's better if we control ourselves.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
We had, Yeah, we kind of had to mix ourselves
in the room, you know, to get the right blend
in the section, especially when you do an overdub.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Now, when you recorded back then would you do the
the rhythm tracks first? Would you do the piano and
then add the horns?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Well, it was a progressive process. We actually started recording
with the whole band in the room, you know, you know,
we live track because we would realize that we needed
to isolate things because if somebody were to stay it
was audible on every instrument.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
Yeah, we were doing We.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Were doing isolation already, we had stuff in between us,
so it would lessen that problem. But we were able
to record with the brass because we were going to
play the same notes on the song, so when we
did it on our own, the bleed through wasn't going
to matter.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
But you know, interestingly enough, you know, the technology wasn't
available in those days. We recorded on eight tracks, and
they only had so much they could do with so
little room, so we utilized various rooms. We actually recorded
does anybody really time it as an introduction in the church.
(08:48):
They used a cathedral downtown, I don't know which one
with a high ceiling and it created a natural room
echo that we couldn't get on the board because we
didn't have the technology, So we used the church to
That's how you get it. That's why those cuts on
(09:10):
Chicago Transit Authority had that big room sound because of
the the nature of the room that we recorded in.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
How many of those tracks did you record at the church?
Speaker 5 (09:21):
I know we did those two.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
We might have done questions there too, I think we did.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
We did.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
But Simon and garfunk Cal, you know, got busy and
busy and busier, and we went to a smaller room
on the second floor with Studio B and we had to,
you know, kind of reapproach everything all over again. It
was a different parameter in terms of acoustics. I remember
(09:49):
on Make Me Smile, Gercio had me go in the bathroom.
They ran a mike cable into the bathroom and I
was whacking the toilet seat with a newspaper to fatten
the snare.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
I mean, we you know, we used tricks like what
you had.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
You can get away a lot of stuff, and it's
just you know, creative.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
We should do business first before we talk.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
The business is.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
The business is you put out one of the best
selling greatest hits collections of all time, which was Chicago nine.
All right, and if you like the songs on it
are just all these incredible classics. You're re releasing a
new version.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Yeah, it's the fiftieth anniversary.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Fiftieth anniversary.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, it's a re release of the greatest Hits with
twenty one tracks.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
The original was eleven, I think.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Yeah, Yeah, And we threw a bunch more songs on
the re release, including the first eight albums and then
even some cuts from Chicago ten which follows.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah. Do you listen to the remixes? Do you like
what you hear?
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Sure? You know.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
The thing is that we've heard them so many times,
and when we play them live now, when we go back,
I can listen to at least when I go back
and listen to the original recordings, I realize how much
we have developed the songs even further through the years.
(11:21):
It's amazing to me that it's not quite exactly the
same as what it was when we recorded. We're doing
a little some different harmonies, we're doing a little different breaks,
you know.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
It's just is that interesting? It was organic?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah. I also want to mention this is your fifty
eighth consecutive year of touring, Yes, which is staggered. You've
toured every year, every year, every year, even through COVID, well,
even through.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
COVID well we worked the first two months of COVID
up until we were working in Las Vegas.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Vegas. We were the last stand on the strip.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Oh really, Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Rod start was at the Coliseum and we were at
the Venetian and it was Saturday night, March.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
Seventeen, I think it was the sixteenth.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Yeah, And I got in the car to fly home
the next Sunday morning. The driver turn around, looked at
me and say, good thing, you're leaving. Vegas is going
down to five percent occupancy tomorrow. It's going to be
a ghost town.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So wow, we got the heck out of town.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
But it was pretty wild.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It was very weird, and we actually thought we were
going to go back to work real quick, that it
was going to be everybody two or three weeks and
may we're back.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Do you remember was there something odd about that last
show was where people already talking and thinking about COVID.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
For us, it was business as usual, the same thing
we just do. That was yeah, and then next thing
you know, we were off the road. Everybody was off
the road. Yeah, it was a complete shutdown, but we
were one of the first people to go back with
June of twenty.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
June of twenty one, we were off for a whole
fifteen months.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Oh yeah, right, right, okay.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
So we worked each year. We worked the beginning of
the year in twenty twenty, and then the world shut down,
and then we came back as soon as we possibly could.
We kept trying to go back on the road, but
nobody was over up their buildings.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I'm being home that long was
strange because we were never home that long.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Other than COVID. What is the longest time you took
away from the road as manned.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
Probably six months?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Really really, it just never gets tired.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
I stopped unpecking. Yeah, I'm always backed. Yeah too.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
I take the dirty clothes out, clean them, put them
back in the bag, exactly, wait to leave from the environment.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
You know, we're always ready to go to the next fire.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Slide down the pole, when the when the Chicago signal
goes off in the sky.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Exactly, and they're still coming. You know, they were sold
out every night. It's it's a it's a phenomenon we
never ever expect, did you know? You see four generations
in the audience and they're all they're all grooving on
their own level.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
That's amazing. Okay, I'm gonna do something that I never do,
because you were just mentioning that first.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Album and I'm I'm.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Not gonna I've never done that, but no, I'm just
gonna play. I wanted to play till to that last
little becomes a horn fill throughout the whole song, just
(14:47):
because that to me, if if you could just play
that five seconds to someone, they would just go, that's
that is to me, that's Chicagoe.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
I can name that too.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
You can name that tone, name that band. So, now,
this was not a song you guys wrote.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
Robert wrote it, Robert Liam wrote that.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yes, and so because you had multiple composers, what was
the what was the process for introducing songs to the band?
Did you have something formal? Do you all sit down?
Speaker 5 (15:14):
We just brought songs in.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
You know, you do a demo and you know you
sing a rough guide lead into the tape machine with
the piano part. As you're saying it, that was a demo.
Now it's a record. You know, people were making records
for demos, and I remember bringing you know, I wrote
(15:39):
just you and me and I brought it in. We
were at Caribou Ranch and the guys were all there,
and I brought the song in and you know, again
it was the cassette with You and My Love and
my Life with acoustic piano, and you know, we put
it in the machine in the booth and everybody listened
to it. I said, is this any good? And Robert
(16:02):
looked at me. He said, Jimmy, that's a hit song.
I went, really yeah, And so you know, I didn't know.
It was a personal experience at the piano, just like
when Lee writes his song.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
We and we just we would bring what we had
into the room.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
And everybody kind of voted on it, you know, and
the song really didn't come alive until everybody in the
band added their special magic to it individually.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Well, this is what I'm interested in this song in
particular because to me, it's it's such a great encapsulation
of your music. Then you god, chord changes, key changes,
tempo changes, I mean, everything is constantly moving. For example,
the brass stuff, those brass, the stabs off the start,
(16:53):
that great rift towards the end. Like was that part
of what Robert brought in or was that something you
guys added? How did that work?
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Robert actually arranged his own horns back. Is that right?
Anybody really? Time it is?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Beginnings, students, those are no. I did questions, but he did.
He did beginnings. He did does anybody real any time?
Speaker 5 (17:15):
It is?
Speaker 4 (17:15):
He did dialogue and quite a few others, and I
kept in current, Man, Robert, you arrange some great stuff. Man,
you should keep going with this. But he realized how
difficult it was.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
He had Jimmy just killing me.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, okay, So those were his those were his ideas.
That's amazing.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
Beginning.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
There were there were occasions that I had to come
in and revoice things because he wasn't particularly adept at
voicing because it wasn't his thing. So he'd write the charts,
which are his arrangements, and I just revoice him to, uh,
(17:57):
capture the essence of the section.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
So tell me what that means revoicing it in terms
of the well.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
You know, typically, you know, I kind of inherited the
chair for or creating this approach to the horns. And
uh maybe because you know, I played trombone. What I
was hearing was a trombone lead. Yeah, so you know
(18:25):
the trombone because it's a baritone instrument, and the trumpet
and the sacks are above it.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
If I voiced it.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
By nature of the instrument, the disparity and the voices
would not be cool. It wouldn't be the equanimity of
the voicing would not happen, you know. So I had
to I.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
Had to play up an active basically. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
So you know, Yeah, is basically in the upper register
for a lot of the charts, and the trumpet is
in the middle, and then the sacks is right there
in the middle between the trumpet and the trombone, so
it tightens the voicing.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Was the was the trumpet amos always on top?
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Well, there's there are times of times the trumpet, Yeah,
it leaves upstairs too.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Yeah, you know, it isn't always like that.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
But in terms of just the typical accompaniment with the vocals, right, yeah,
the section is more tight. The voicing is tight, so
it has more of a punch, you know. And then
we overdob and we put the trumpet upstairs on the
on the double, and we put the bone, I do
(19:37):
the pedals on the bone, and we might.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Play a wide triad, but then let the rhythm section
play the color notes, the sevens extensions.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
That's the conundrum when we're playing live, you have to
pick there's only three of us, Okay, in live performance.
In the studio we had the luxury of overdobing of
multi so we could we could add all those extensions
in the second take or even the third take. Sometimes
(20:15):
we tripled if we wanted really a big sound. But
live there's only three of us, So it's very important
to be economically precise. You have to pick just the
right three voices to express the nature of the chord.
If it's a seven chord or a nine chord, you're
(20:35):
not going to just play the root and the third
and the fifth. You need to play those extensions to
paint the right colors of that extended chord.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And you'd hope that the base or somebody else was filled.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Well, yeah, yeah, you'll leave yeah, you leave the guts
to the rhythm section.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
But you're saying sometimes you guys would play chord tones
and leave the color notes to sure the rest of
the band. To me, that famous riff phil at the
end of what I just played, it's got the it's
the Is that the trumpet on top doing hitting the
single note? Yes, and then there's the trombone in the sacks.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Are oh bo.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, are they playing the same note orre they playing
different notes?
Speaker 5 (21:21):
Different notes? Different notes?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Okay, were they in maybe thirds or something?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
They're playing thirds. I'm playing at the top note b
b b B.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Chord.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Wow. Wow, But this is the way Robert wanted it.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, I got a kick out of his A
lot of his voicing.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
I left alone because it was really great.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, it's just simple to the point.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
I mean, I have to be at beginnings. Be let
it live, let it.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
I mean the alto trumpet line in the beginning, it's
still I get chills when I hear it.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
I love it. I mean, Robert wrote some great stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
And then for you guys for playing, I mean, I
know different groups. You know, string quartets. People are always
looking at each other. There's a lot of body language
to signal when you're coming in. How did you guys
learn to play so precisely together?
Speaker 5 (22:19):
We guessed, and we guessed write a lot.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
You know what, man, I gotta tell you a lot
of times Jimmy would say, Okay, this next time, we're
gonna go boah.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
We're gonna like we called it the grease, right, We're
gonna put the grease on the second note, and I
would go, he's not gonna put the grease on the
second note, He's gonna do it on a third note.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
So I'd do it on the third and I would
make it too well, and he was I knew he
wasn't gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
How do you know he wasn't going to do it?
Speaker 5 (22:49):
I didn't for sure, but I just guessed right.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
But you know the old adage, you know, the horn
section is like one set of lungs. You know, we
feel each other by its asmosis or something. And you
know when I'll never forget it. When we assembled for
the first time, and we'll to parents basement in Maywell, Illinois,
and we were playing James Brown Stuff.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I heard it. Papa's got a brand new band. Papa's
got I heard it immediately. I said, this is magic.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
You just knew this is you. Three guys were locked in.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
I'm yeah, I was, I mean blown away. It was magic.
I said, this is unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
We'll be back with more from Lee, Lock Nane and
Jimmy Panco after the break.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I want to take you back just a little bit
further before you met what and I'll start with you Lee.
What were how did music come into your life? What
was We were playing with different bands, but but even
before that year a band.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Called Ross and Majestics and Andow Band, and we played
the Irish clubs in Chicago. We played like R and B,
well not R and B, country and western songs, Irish
dances and all kinds of stuff, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And was your family musical? Is that how you?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
My father was a trumpet player.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Oh was that right? Okay?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, he was. He was a band leader and he
never actually left the States. He was a chief warrant
officer in the Army Air Force when it was combined
at the time, and he'd have all these players come through.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
And then go to the front vides. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Did he play with a lot of military.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
I think he had stopped playing by that time. He
was just the band leader and these cats would come
through and then go. He would let him go a
well on the weekend.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
So you sorry, no, absolutely, of course, I'm.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
The cry baby of the band, by the way. Okay,
sentimental irishman. That's well.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
If you can't be sentimental with your father, I don't
see what you can't, Candy.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Absolutely, he was good to them and they then they'd
go over and fight the war and hopefully come back.
But they were some of the greatest players out of
the big bands, you know, Tommy Dorsey and Jimmy Dorsey
and Glenn Miller, all those bands. When they got drafted,
they'd come through his band.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Is that right? Did he have stories about them?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
He didn't like to tell the stories. He wanted to
get away from it when he came home.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Oh, okay, And did you play in school? Did you
do play school school?
Speaker 5 (25:39):
And I started in grade school? Yeah, eleven years old.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Wow, And that was back when in grade school they
walked you into a big room full of brass and
said pick an instrument. Yep, there was a lot of
that in schools.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Well, he had played the trumpet, so that was the
first choice.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
And they just checked my teeth to make sure I
wasn't going to harm myself. You know, my lips were
gonna be bloody mess by the time I got done.
And it seemed to work out, so I never stopped since.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
And then you went to college for music, Yes.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
The Paul University and which where we met.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And were your parents happy about that?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
They weren't too happy when I decided to do this
for a living. They were trying to talk me out
of doing it, and because you know how many people
make it, I was one of the lucky ones. We
were a couple of the lucky ones.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Did when did they finally accept that you'd made it?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I'm not exactly sure, but when they started coming to
shows and.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Going that's pretty good any day now.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I mean like when you mentioned does anybody know what
time it is? That was sort of a crossover from
the big bands to modern rock and roll?
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And then what were your Were you influenced by big
bands growing up?
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah, because my dad had all those records. I used
to to play along with them.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
You guys aren't unique. Their their blood, sweat and tears.
Other bands would have bigger horn. James Brown I think
had a trombone, but not a lot of bands had
your sound. Slim the Family, stonehead a trumpet.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, the brass was always uh a background instrument and
all the other bands. We were a lead voice. We
became a lead band.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Our approach is melodic, whereas a typical horn section is
harmonic and frosting on the cake. Because we are a
lead voice, we are a melodic horn section that interplays
in and around what the lead vocal is doing, so
it becomes intrinsic in the song. If you take the
(27:44):
brass out, there's empty spaces.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Were there models for that that you listened to?
Speaker 5 (27:50):
No, I just I arranged what I heard. I wanted.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
I wanted the section to be a lead voice, and
that wasn't just.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Not shots. You know, do you Emma seeless, right?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
And that's kind of the approach we do, because if
you take it away, you know there's something missing. Maybe
subconsciously it was job security, but you know, you know,
we just felt it out.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Interesting that you say job security, because there are people
now who, for whatever reasons, they have decided that they
are not going to listen to what is popular, and
then twenty years later they're grown up and they decide
to listen to Chicago Transit Authority for the first time
and then give a reaction reaction videos, and they inevitably
(28:50):
ask if the horn players are part of the band,
you know, thinking that it's too big.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Or they are they even real horns?
Speaker 5 (28:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Well, I mean they had to have been real horns
because there was no electronic instruments to be able to
play them back then, you.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Know, and again there was no competit narrative. We invented this,
you know, this approach became our signature.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It does remind me of times a little bit of
he didn't have a vocalist, but like the Mingas band sometimes,
were you guys influenced at all by Oh?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (29:25):
I was a jazz guy, you know, and I brought
that to the table, and Lee was in his his bands.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
I had my own quintet.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
It was modeled after the Crusaders, if you will, canniball. Atterly,
we were doing jazz covers, you know, milestones, give Samba
about better Me and uh, our repertoire kind of evolved
into jazz rock funk. I started, uh, you know, experimenting
(29:56):
with more contemporary motifs. So when I when I became
part of the our thing, I started there and then
now a way, Uh, I have a vocal group to
work with, I have a rhythm section that is rock
and roll to work with.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
I mean Terry kaz blew me away.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
I mean, you know, he was brilliant and Terry couldn't
read music, so he helped me help him and vice versa.
I sat with him for hours because Introduction, which is
the first cut on Chicago. Transmittory is an incredibly intricate piece.
I mean there's every time signature and key change, and
(30:40):
I mean Terry was going for the throat, but he
didn't know how to put it on paper. He didn't
you know, he heard it, but he didn't write. He
couldn't write it, he couldn't read it. Yeah, so I
had to sit with him and Okay, this is a
B minor, this is an F sharp major, this is
(31:00):
a flat and fifth.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
You know, I had to create a chord chart.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Only then could I arrange the song for the because
I needed a roadmap. And Terry, in sitting with me,
learned eventually how to read charts. And I learned how
to embrace rock and roll because I had been a
jazz guy. So working with Terry opened my brain up
(31:27):
to you know, guitar man, you know rock and roll.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
This is awesome. I can put horns with this, this
is cool.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So do you remember meeting Terry for the first time?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah, it was he Walt asked him to come over
to school to Paul to talk about their gig or
some shit. I don't I don't remember, but yeah, he
and Danny Canea de Paul and I met Terry.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
To Paul, what was your first impression?
Speaker 5 (31:57):
He was wild. He was wild.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
You know. He had this kind of kangaroo jacket and
long blonde hair, and he was a big guy, big
sturdy Norwegian, and he was gruff, you know. And there
is something, you know, very cave man Terry, and you know,
(32:23):
I was immediately taken aback by it. You know, it
was like, oh, this guy is very interesting. Yeah. And
I heard him play.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
It was like, holy shit, he was playing bass. Well,
he was playing bass.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
I think it was before we were in Walt's basement
that I heard him playing guitar. Somewhere. I don't know,
maybe he was just horsing around. It might have been
the apartment he used to sit between custom speakers, you know,
those were his headphones.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
It was and man.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
But then when we first got together Walt's parents, I
really heard Terry.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
My jaw dropped.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I mean, this guy was like, yeah, God, feel his
feel I mean he felt it in every inch of
his body.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
And you know, you couldn't help but be.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
But he's also a great rhythm player too.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
Great rhythm player and single lead vocals sing the book. Yeah,
he did it all.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
He did it all. I've never seen or heard anybody
who can do that.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
And then what was your impression of Robert when you
met him? Do you remember meeting him for the first time.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I think Walt actually met Robert first. He went he
was he went to a club where was it Bobby Charles?
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Bobby Charles and the Wanderers. The Wanderers.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
It was at sub dive on the South Side, and
Robert was playing acoustic piano and Walt. Walt asked him
if you knew if he played B three Oregon because
we didn't have a bass player, and Walt was interested pedals.
To save money, man, maybe we could find an organ
(34:13):
player that could play the bass pedals on the organ
and we wouldn't have to pay a bass player.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
And Roberts said, oh yeah, man, I play organ. Never
done in his life.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
He immediately went out and bought I used them three
organ and started woodshedding at home, so when when we
got together, he could at least I.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Think we did that for about six months or so
before we.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Before we met Peter, and then you hired Peter. Do
you remember meeting Was he like a highre like you
went looking for a bass player?
Speaker 3 (34:47):
He was leaving. He was in the process of leaving.
The exceptions that were that were like the drinking and
Cuddy was sort of They were a Top forty band.
They were everybody played forty five minutes, fifteen off. They
would take their fifteen minutes off and go backstage and
learn another song, another song, and then come out and
(35:11):
try it on the next set. Hell did they get
But they would sound exactly like the record.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
Yeah. And they had.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Two amazing vocalists, Jimmy Vincent and Peter and they were
really they were like the thing, you know. They appeared
on local TV and they were probably one of the
most popular club acts in the Midwest at that time.
We were at that time, we were beginning to get
(35:40):
fired from these clubs because we started discovering our own voice,
particularly particularly Robert Lamb, who started bringing original material into
the band, and we'd start trying those songs out at clubs,
and no sooner we do that, the club owners would
would come to us and say, hey, you play that stuff,
(36:02):
You're out of here. I want Top forty. That's what
my customers want to come to hear. And so we
either had to dick to the Top forty or get
fired and we started fired.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
This sort of set a pattern for the rest of
your career.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Not only that, we set a pattern for the type
of stuff that we were doing, and the and the
way we were feeling about life, and some of the
illegal things that we were doing on our fifteen minute breaks.
As opposed to having a drink with the boys, we
were going out and yeeling smoking a joint instead.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
You weren't learning a song, so we were, but we.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Were taking that drinking audience we weren't doing in a
new song, and we would take that drinking new audience
away to come and listen to us. And that's what
became interesting for Setara to come and hear us.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Well here's the deal man. Yeah, there were, you know,
no scenery.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
We started getting fired from these typical nightclubs. A club
opened on Rush Street called Barnaby's that actually encouraged new stuff.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
You know. They it was wow, Okay, this is what
we've been looking for.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
And we got a gig at Barnaby's and we could
do they they loved it. We could do our thing.
We were doing expanded arrangements of hit songs. There was
a group called Vanilla Fudge. They inspired that as well.
They do you know, extended versions with alternate chord changes,
(37:32):
and you know, so we started doing that and then
and then that evolved into completely original material, which we
were able to do at Barnaby's. One engagement at Barnabys,
we were an opening act for The Exceptions. Peter se
Tera and the Exceptions were the headliner. And he heard
(37:55):
us doing these beetle covers. He was a huge Beatles fan.
He heard us doing Magical Mystery tour and got to
get you in my life and it blew him away.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
Next thing, you know, he was in the band.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
And then how soon after that did you leave for
Los Angeles?
Speaker 4 (38:13):
All of it started in February of sixty eight and
in June sixty seven, I'm sorry, And in June of
sixty eight we headed to California, So a year and
a half.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And you also did you tour with Janis Choplin? Why
have that rank?
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Well, yeah, we met her at the Fillmore West and
along we also we opened for Jimmy Hendrix. We were
at the Whiskey a Go Go It' Sunset Strip. We
were opening for Albert King and we were in the
dressing room waiting to go back on and there was
a knock on the door and we opened the door
(38:50):
and Hendrix is standing there and we're going, whoa is.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
That Jimmy Hendricks?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
You know, and you knew his stuff?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Oh yeah, oh he was.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
I was playing like Jimmy Hendrix before we heard Jimmy Hendrix.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Yeah, we were. In fact, we were doing his cover.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
We were in Fox the Lady in Purple Heads, in
our in our set, and Hendricks heard him. And before
we went back, I say, he came to the dressing
room he said, you guys have a guitar player that's
better than me and a horn section that sounds like
one set of lungs.
Speaker 5 (39:21):
Do you guys want to go on the road? Fuck? Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
And next thing you know, we opened for his summer tour.
We were the opening acting for him.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
It was at the end of his career and the
end of Genesis, but it was our foot in the
door to the business. We never took our foot out
of the door.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
What was he like to tour with?
Speaker 4 (39:44):
He was very introspective, very shy, quiet, And it was
funny because you know, we traveled together. Terry was nervous
around him, and he was nervous around Terry. You know,
he didn't know how to approach each other. Eventually they
got comfortable and they started trading ideas.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
And you know, Terry would love to have played with him.
He would have joined Jimmy. Hendry expand in a flash
and left us.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
See you guys, well we were there was actually some
chatter amongst us about maybe doing a project together with
him with Jimmy, and of course he left us too early,
and then Terry left us too early.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
He also and maybe it was Walt who told the
story that he was telling you how he felt tremendous
pressure to have another hit and that he was finding Hendrick. Yeah,
he was finding it very hard to probably.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I mean that's that sort of goes along with the
business itself. You know, it's always what have you done lately?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, you just don't think that would apply to Jimmy Hendrix.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
It applies to everyone who's ever picked up an instrument.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
I forget which artist it was. I think Joni Mitchell,
You're only as good as your last hit. How quickly
did they forget? Almost infinitely. That's another reason that this
Journey of ours is such a phenomenon, because these songs
broke that mold. These songs have become timeless, these songs
(41:21):
we are along for the ride. We're just blessed with
this ride that this music has given us.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Do you think it's the songs those yeah, Oh.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
My gosh, yes, I mean these songs and we hear
it every night. These songs have become fabrics of lives, soundtracks.
These people are in there, they're singing louder in the band.
It's like it's a communion. Little did we know. I mean,
we are so blessed to have this phenomenon occur that
(41:51):
never would have occurred to us.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
But now the music business as opposed to the fans.
You know, you found out at some point you didn't
have publishing. Wasn't that right, You didn't have publishing rights.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Oh no, Gercil took the publisher rights. So I mean,
I prefer not to talk about him anymore. Yeah, he
enough already, so he discovered us, thank you.
Speaker 5 (42:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
But then, but then Columbia dropped you after you made
them just a gigantic stack of money.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
Well, we made him a stack of money. But at
the time they dropped us, we were managed by a
guy that made a deal that they couldn't refuse.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
And Walter yet Nikoff.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
Agreed to the deal, and they realized after they went
back to New York that they had just screwed themselves
because they offered us way more than they thought we
were worth.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
They were never going to come up and they were
never going to recover.
Speaker 4 (42:55):
So they, you know, they let us go, and they
released everything they had over and over, repackage, repackaged.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
And started saying that we were done. Yeah, you know,
we weren't done, but you know, so Irving Azoff picked
us up and put us on Full Moon Records, and
not a bad guy to pick you up. Another historical thing,
just going.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Back to that first album, how how long after you'd
been in LA did you record your Chicrgo Transit Authority?
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Six months we got to LA and June sixty eight.
We were in New York in January sixty nine beginning
the recording of Chicago Transit Authority.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And now that was your first record deal. Columbia was a
little nervous, but you insisted on a double album. I'm
fascinated by that.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Well, we we as a band realized that these cuts
were longer cuts if we had done and Gercio completely
agreed and supported our vision here. We couldn't have captured
full picture this music with one disc, and he tried
to convince Clive Davis of that, and Class said, you
(44:03):
know budget before you know, our budget doesn't allow that
for a new artist. Of course, it was the right decision, Yeah,
and every The next two albums were also double albums
because Columbia realized that it was necessary.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
One last break and were back with Lee, Lock Nane
and Jimmy Panko. My introduction to you was from my
brother David, who was a trumpet player, and he brought
home the Carnegie Hall record.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Now, I know you don't like the sound the fourth album.
That was the fourth album.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
That was the best they could do at the time,
And I didn't realize that until fifty years later when
I did it.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
When I Lee did a remaster that is brilliant. Really Yeah,
He and an engineer took it into his studio and
gave it the digital.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Ten months later. But we had to take away all
of the noise and electronics and everything just to get
down to the instruments. And then we edited that to
get as much of the sound of Carnegie Hall out
of it, so we would delete everything up to the
(45:27):
whatever horn or voice it was, and then fade into
that note, let the note play finish, and then fade
out of it. And we did that for each instrument,
every drum, every well. Actually the drums were easier because
(45:47):
you can put gates on those, but also to build
up the sound of the drums, Tim Jessup, the engineer,
put together a drum sound, probably like ten tracks of drums,
but anyway, yeah, he built he built a drum sound.
So by the time we finished, we were able to
(46:08):
move the music forward as though you were sitting.
Speaker 5 (46:11):
In the audience.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
And for me it being the arranger, it was a
blessing me because my beef with Carnegie Hall, and again
it was lack of technology. That's what we had. Oh yeah,
and the horns. I couldn't listen to. The horns sounded
like kazoos. It wasn't our sound. It wasn't our big sound.
And Lee brought that back.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
But now most people the Carnegie Hall is considered it
the greatest acoustics at least in the world. What was
the issue, just the way it was, Mike, No, no, no, it's.
Speaker 5 (46:42):
Rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
It's a Cardigie Hall is built for acoustic music. That's
the difference. And if you put amplema, it's just you
can probably still hear some of the notes now towards
the building I here Chicago.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
That.
Speaker 5 (46:59):
Nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yeah, it's still when when I sit in my chair,
I screened a little of the sound out. So but
tell me about it's such a an amazing piece of music.
The ballet. It's got seven it's got seven parts make
Me Smile. I think it as at least two key
changes in it. And I'm not going to talk about
make Me Smile because I will encourage people listening to
(47:24):
go to YouTube to you know. Rick Biatto did a
wonderful did a wonderful breakdown of that song.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
He's amazing.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
He's got yeah, no, he's.
Speaker 5 (47:38):
I try to catch all his breakdowns. He does a
lot of it.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
He's done. He's done great ones, but I think yours
is one of the best.
Speaker 5 (47:44):
He's an amazing musicologist.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Yeah, yeah, he really is. And he does a fabulous
breakdown of make Me Smile, and you can hear all
the parts, and it's it's just a blast. But then
there's so much to say anxiety's moments, and then there's
the West Virginia Fantasies, which features you Lee on trumpet
(48:06):
beautiful beautiful trumpet line.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
I never learned what any of those names, because.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Well, you know the part where you're playing beautiful trumpet parts,
that's what it's called.
Speaker 5 (48:20):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
I mean, I come from it the other night because
I had a clip for a performance and when we're
when we're on stage, gig it, I can't hear a
lot of the nuances because there's so much going on
in my ears.
Speaker 5 (48:33):
And I heard that piece very.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Clearly, and your tone on that thing is so nice
because I had never heard it on stage.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
And then there's the beautiful counterpart where Walter would come
in on that was was that all written out? Was
any of this written over?
Speaker 5 (48:52):
Every note was written out?
Speaker 4 (48:53):
When I wrote the ballet, I just approached it as
a multi movement piece.
Speaker 5 (48:59):
You know, you're still writing it. When we were recording in.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
The Chicago, did you did you have a like a
classical piece of music you had in mind as a model.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
Not necessarily, but I wanted to create as a peon
perhaps to the great classic composers.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
Hey, why can't we do this? And you know rock
and roll?
Speaker 4 (49:19):
You know, so I just wrote an extended piece and
one movement evolved into another, into another. But I didn't
have anything titled in movements. That was Gercio's idea, said Jimmy,
let's title each one of those departures, each one of
those segues. So we have actual titles on these movements,
(49:43):
and we wind up with a almost a mini symphony
kind of approach.
Speaker 5 (49:50):
Well.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Also, the business, the studios and record companies were allowing
unlimited copyrights at that time, and within a few years
after that they cut it down to just ten copyrights
on a record completely changed writers in the record business
(50:13):
because they didn't want to share. Once you had ten
songs on a record, you wrote the eleven song, that
the writers would have to start sharing their royalties. They
didn't want to be doing that, so it completely changed
their writing.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
And I could get nasty here, but I'm not going to.
I'm Christian.
Speaker 5 (50:32):
Hey, more titles, more publishing.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
Well that's what that's where I was leading. But so anyway,
the greed changes everything. So we were just playing music
and writing music, and that's what we loved. Still to
this day.
Speaker 5 (50:48):
I had been listening to Bach.
Speaker 4 (50:51):
I am totally a fan of Johann Bach, I mean,
arguably the most perfect voicer in the history of music.
I mean his voicing and his intervals were perfect. He
was the template in music theory. Bach was a perfectionist,
(51:12):
but Bach also cooked. Bach grooved. So here's this perfectionist
that had an amazing feel as well. And I was
listening to the Brandenburg Concertos. I got absorbed in how
did he do this?
Speaker 5 (51:29):
How did he do this? It totally drew me in. Well.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
That inspired me to sit at a piano and start
fooling around with our peggios. Do do do do Do
Do Do Do Do do a La Bach and Color
of My World was directly inspired by the Brandenburg Concertos.
It's a twelve bar turnaround of major sevens and minor sevens.
(51:57):
It's around and I put a vocal over it and
then a flute so over it.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Wow, it's just amazing. But the changes in it are very,
very interesting. They're not they're all relative.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
There's a note in each major seven chord that that
sets up the next major seven or minor seven chord,
so they're they're.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Always using common notes to create the.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
Yeah do do do do do do do do do
do do do do Do.
Speaker 5 (52:29):
I only changed the F T an A to.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Make it an A minor seven from an F major
to an A writer, so they're relative.
Speaker 5 (52:37):
All the chords are relative, but they.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Flow, They flow beautiful, so it's not diatonic. It's not no,
but it's but it has that you use the common
tones to keep it exactly well. The whole thing is
just amazing.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Thank you now.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
But Lee, it took you a little longer to become
a writer.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Yeah, and these guys were already writers. I came in
with call on Me, you want to listen to my song?
So I had my little cassette put it in and had.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
You presented a lot of songs before call on Me.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
This was my first song wow, that I presented, and
I had to say though, you came out with a bang.
Came out with a bang, and Sata decided to sing
it and became a hit. It did come in still
hit today. It's going to be on this fiftieth anniversary album, so.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
It's pretty cool as it should be.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
And it was on the Chicago seven and then The
Greatest Hits, which we initially thought was going to be
our last album, because once you do the Greatest hits. Historically,
most bands are history after that.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
And did you think that was And it was that
around the time that Terry died.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
Or Terry died shortly after that, but it was something
that was going on, so it did enter our hits.
But we just kept playing music. We just kept playing
our shows.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
So there wasn't a There wasn't a point you thought
it's been a ten year run.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
No, because we kept working. We were interested in playing.
He was four audiences. We loved playing for live audiences. Yeah,
and you still do today.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
But even after Terry died, did you feel was there
a moment you felt like we can't do this? He
was such a he was such a huge force.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Not a matter I can't but he was the leader
at the time, and we had to decide that we
are still together. He would want us to keep going,
So let's do that.
Speaker 5 (54:34):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
I'm only halfway through my questions and we're out of time,
So you're gonna You're gonna come back at some point.
We're gonna keep going. Yeah, man, this has been.
Speaker 5 (54:43):
There won't be sixty more years though, right planning?
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah, you'll be you'll be talking to uh if my
brain's in a jar. That's all you'll be talking to.
It's been a huge honor. Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (54:56):
Honor.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
An episode description, you'll find a link to our favorite
Chicago tracks, as well as the fiftieth anniversary re release
of Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest hits. Be sure to check
out YouTube Die Slash Broken Record podcast to see all
of our video interviews, and be sure to follow us
on Instagram at the Broken Record pot. You can follow
us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced
(55:20):
and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric
Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken
Record is production of Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
If you love this show and others.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
From Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is
a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free
listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin
Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show,
please remember to share, rate, and review us on your
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Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
When Chicago released their debut album in nineteen sixty nine, they,
along with bands like Blood, Sweat and Tears, Sligne, The
Family Stone, and also James Brown and the JB's, We
defined what a band could be, blending brass, jaz sophistication,
and rock power into something completely unique. Over the next
half century, the band became one of the most commercially
(00:40):
successful acts in American music history, with a string of
hits that remained staples of classic rock radio even today.
By nineteen seventy five, when Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest Hits, arrived,
the band had already amassed an extraordinary catalog of songs
that captured both the experimental spirit of the late sixties
with the pop sensibility of the seventies. That compilation became
(01:01):
one of the best selling albums of the decade. Now
Chicago is celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of that landmark release
with an expanded edition that offers fans a deeper look
at this pivotal moment in the band's history. On today's episode,
Bruce Headlam talks to Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco of
Chicago about recording their early albums. They also discussed what
inspired them to incorporate a horn section into a rock band,
(01:24):
and they explained why after decades of been on the
road since the late seventies, they don't even bother to
unpack those suitcases anymore. This is broken record, real musicians,
real conversations. Here's Bruce Headlam with Lee Locknane and Jimmy
(01:45):
Panco of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
We have Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco. Hello, two of
the original members of the Great band Chicago to composers, arrangers,
but I think most importantly two members of the brass section,
because that is what really drove so much of that
(02:08):
horns with the horns.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Actually hid one of the greatest guitar players away from
being top.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Ten recognized as a great guitar player.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I think people recognize, well, they recognize him, but it
was really he came in second to the brass when
we were really up there popularity wise.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
And I do want to mention the third member of
the National Brass Yes, Walter oh Walt Perizader. I feel
he's here in spirit, yes, so we talk about all.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
You know, he was a big part of this. He
actually came up with the idea you know that wound
up becoming Chicago. We were students at Deepaul University and
Walt and Danny Sarafin and Terry Cath were members of
a club act that we're working at Chicago, which we're
kind of.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
On the way out.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
And Walt knew Lee and I at Deepaul University and
he approached us with this, Hey, you guys, what do
you think about this idea? Because we used to go
to the Pussycat and sit in with them. They were
called the Missing Links, and Lee and I would go
show up.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
I played every now and then. Yeah, what kinds where
they play Top forty? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Yeah, everybody that played We played Top forty when we
were We were a club act before we left to
go to California to make records. But he approached us
with this idea, what do you guys think about a
rock and roll group with a horn section that's like
a main character?
Speaker 5 (03:42):
You know?
Speaker 3 (03:42):
How can we We were thinking of going to Vegas
and playing those like side clubs rather than the big rooms.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And somebody told me that he got that idea from
a Beatles song, Got to get You into My life?
Is that true?
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Well? I don't know I don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
We did a cover of Got to Get You Into
My Life and the clubs as well as Magical Mystery
Tour Little Help from My Friends, and I kind.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Of recorded it me because I played bass on Little
Help From As You did boo boom.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, that was it true. He said from the beginning,
it'll be a democracy.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yes, well, we all thought the same thing. We just
shook hands and let's do this.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
We met wals apartment and agreed to devote all our
energy and time to this idea.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
And you know we should.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, And he said you can only leave two ways,
you ask out or you die.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Right, Yeah, A little final for me.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, yeah, Well I'll want a decision by the end
of the podcast for both of you. Guys.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
What are you going to do next?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah? So you are in New York. Your Chicago band
you you Mad you Bones in LA. But New York
is where you recorded I think your first two albums. Yeah,
you have fond memories of New York. I was a
fifty second What kind of studio is that?
Speaker 4 (05:05):
It was a multi story office building and they had
several studios on several floors and uh we.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Food aid shift and Simon and Garfunkel had it at
the day.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah, we were We were the new guys, so they
gave us the graveyard shift. Simon and garfunk recorded all
day and then we started recording at midnight and wound
up going back to the hotel.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
The only people on the street were the garbage drugs.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Go back to the hotel with a triple decker sandwich
and you never good to go.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Oh yeah, the stage deli.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Oh yeah, And did you meet with Simon and Garfunkel
while you were there? Did you?
Speaker 5 (05:45):
Actually? I never saw. I'm met Art in the elevator.
Really yeah. I was coming to work and he was leaving. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, we just had kind of two ships in the night,
you know, but we did.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
You know, Jimmy.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Gercio was producing us, and he got close to Roy
Hallie who was producing Simon and Garfriend and they traded
notes and Roy actually came down and assisted in some
of the recording techniques.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
No, no kidding.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Yeah, he added some of his expertise, and he also
knew the board at CBS very well.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Well, he knew the board, but he wasn't ready for
rookies to come in. He left the project pretty quickly
because we were learning how to record. We knew how
to play these songs backwards and forwards because we'd been
working with them in the various clubs that we played,
but we had to learn how to record, how far
(06:45):
to stand away from them, you know, being worried about
Oh my god, I can't make a mistake because this microphone,
the thing is in my way here.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, it was quite intimidating, you know. And I say this,
you know, in performance, knowing that this was going on
tape forever.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
We better do this right.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
But you had producers to set up the room. Oh sure,
but still it took a lot of figuring out.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's just a matter of the actual playing the instrument
to that thing and then going into the control room
and listening to it backing on. Oh so I have
to step back a little bit on this to do
a better blend, a natural blend. I mean, they can
do it electronically and with the with the everything inside
(07:31):
the control room, but it's better if we control ourselves.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
We had, Yeah, we kind of had to mix ourselves
in the room, you know, to get the right blend
in the section, especially when you do an overdub.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Now, when you recorded back then would you do the
the rhythm tracks first? Would you do the piano and
then add the horns?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Well, it was a progressive process. We actually started recording
with the whole band in the room, you know, you know,
we live track because we would realize that we needed
to isolate things because if somebody were to stay it
was audible on every instrument.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
Yeah, we were doing We.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Were doing isolation already, we had stuff in between us,
so it would lessen that problem. But we were able
to record with the brass because we were going to
play the same notes on the song, so when we
did it on our own, the bleed through wasn't going
to matter.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
But you know, interestingly enough, you know, the technology wasn't
available in those days. We recorded on eight tracks, and
they only had so much they could do with so
little room, so we utilized various rooms. We actually recorded
does anybody really time it as an introduction in the church.
(08:48):
They used a cathedral downtown, I don't know which one
with a high ceiling and it created a natural room
echo that we couldn't get on the board because we
didn't have the technology, So we used the church to
That's how you get it. That's why those cuts on
(09:10):
Chicago Transit Authority had that big room sound because of
the the nature of the room that we recorded in.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
How many of those tracks did you record at the church?
Speaker 5 (09:21):
I know we did those two.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
We might have done questions there too, I think we did.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
We did.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
But Simon and garfunk Cal, you know, got busy and
busy and busier, and we went to a smaller room
on the second floor with Studio B and we had to,
you know, kind of reapproach everything all over again. It
was a different parameter in terms of acoustics. I remember
(09:49):
on Make Me Smile, Gercio had me go in the bathroom.
They ran a mike cable into the bathroom and I
was whacking the toilet seat with a newspaper to fatten
the snare.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
I mean, we you know, we used tricks like what
you had.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
You can get away a lot of stuff, and it's
just you know, creative.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
We should do business first before we talk.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
The business is.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
The business is you put out one of the best
selling greatest hits collections of all time, which was Chicago nine.
All right, and if you like the songs on it
are just all these incredible classics. You're re releasing a
new version.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Yeah, it's the fiftieth anniversary.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Fiftieth anniversary.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, it's a re release of the greatest Hits with
twenty one tracks.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
The original was eleven, I think.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Yeah, Yeah, And we threw a bunch more songs on
the re release, including the first eight albums and then
even some cuts from Chicago ten which follows.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah. Do you listen to the remixes? Do you like
what you hear?
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Sure? You know.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
The thing is that we've heard them so many times,
and when we play them live now, when we go back,
I can listen to at least when I go back
and listen to the original recordings, I realize how much
we have developed the songs even further through the years.
(11:21):
It's amazing to me that it's not quite exactly the
same as what it was when we recorded. We're doing
a little some different harmonies, we're doing a little different breaks,
you know.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
It's just is that interesting? It was organic?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah. I also want to mention this is your fifty
eighth consecutive year of touring, Yes, which is staggered. You've
toured every year, every year, every year, even through COVID, well,
even through.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
COVID well we worked the first two months of COVID
up until we were working in Las Vegas.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Vegas. We were the last stand on the strip.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Oh really, Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Rod start was at the Coliseum and we were at
the Venetian and it was Saturday night, March.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
Seventeen, I think it was the sixteenth.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Yeah, And I got in the car to fly home
the next Sunday morning. The driver turn around, looked at
me and say, good thing, you're leaving. Vegas is going
down to five percent occupancy tomorrow. It's going to be
a ghost town.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So wow, we got the heck out of town.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
But it was pretty wild.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It was very weird, and we actually thought we were
going to go back to work real quick, that it
was going to be everybody two or three weeks and
may we're back.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Do you remember was there something odd about that last
show was where people already talking and thinking about COVID.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
For us, it was business as usual, the same thing
we just do. That was yeah, and then next thing
you know, we were off the road. Everybody was off
the road. Yeah, it was a complete shutdown, but we
were one of the first people to go back with
June of twenty.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
June of twenty one, we were off for a whole
fifteen months.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Oh yeah, right, right, okay.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
So we worked each year. We worked the beginning of
the year in twenty twenty, and then the world shut down,
and then we came back as soon as we possibly could.
We kept trying to go back on the road, but
nobody was over up their buildings.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I'm being home that long was
strange because we were never home that long.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Other than COVID. What is the longest time you took
away from the road as manned.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
Probably six months?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Really really, it just never gets tired.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
I stopped unpecking. Yeah, I'm always backed. Yeah too.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
I take the dirty clothes out, clean them, put them
back in the bag, exactly, wait to leave from the environment.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
You know, we're always ready to go to the next fire.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Slide down the pole, when the when the Chicago signal
goes off in the sky.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Exactly, and they're still coming. You know, they were sold
out every night. It's it's a it's a phenomenon we
never ever expect, did you know? You see four generations
in the audience and they're all they're all grooving on
their own level.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
That's amazing. Okay, I'm gonna do something that I never do,
because you were just mentioning that first.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Album and I'm I'm.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Not gonna I've never done that, but no, I'm just
gonna play. I wanted to play till to that last
little becomes a horn fill throughout the whole song, just
(14:47):
because that to me, if if you could just play
that five seconds to someone, they would just go, that's
that is to me, that's Chicagoe.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
I can name that too.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
You can name that tone, name that band. So, now,
this was not a song you guys wrote.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
Robert wrote it, Robert Liam wrote that.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yes, and so because you had multiple composers, what was
the what was the process for introducing songs to the band?
Did you have something formal? Do you all sit down?
Speaker 5 (15:14):
We just brought songs in.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
You know, you do a demo and you know you
sing a rough guide lead into the tape machine with
the piano part. As you're saying it, that was a demo.
Now it's a record. You know, people were making records
for demos, and I remember bringing you know, I wrote
(15:39):
just you and me and I brought it in. We
were at Caribou Ranch and the guys were all there,
and I brought the song in and you know, again
it was the cassette with You and My Love and
my Life with acoustic piano, and you know, we put
it in the machine in the booth and everybody listened
to it. I said, is this any good? And Robert
(16:02):
looked at me. He said, Jimmy, that's a hit song.
I went, really yeah, And so you know, I didn't know.
It was a personal experience at the piano, just like
when Lee writes his song.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
We and we just we would bring what we had
into the room.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
And everybody kind of voted on it, you know, and
the song really didn't come alive until everybody in the
band added their special magic to it individually.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Well, this is what I'm interested in this song in
particular because to me, it's it's such a great encapsulation
of your music. Then you god, chord changes, key changes,
tempo changes, I mean, everything is constantly moving. For example,
the brass stuff, those brass, the stabs off the start,
(16:53):
that great rift towards the end. Like was that part
of what Robert brought in or was that something you
guys added? How did that work?
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Robert actually arranged his own horns back. Is that right?
Anybody really? Time it is?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Beginnings, students, those are no. I did questions, but he did.
He did beginnings. He did does anybody real any time?
Speaker 5 (17:15):
It is?
Speaker 4 (17:15):
He did dialogue and quite a few others, and I
kept in current, Man, Robert, you arrange some great stuff. Man,
you should keep going with this. But he realized how
difficult it was.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
He had Jimmy just killing me.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, okay, So those were his those were his ideas.
That's amazing.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
Beginning.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
There were there were occasions that I had to come
in and revoice things because he wasn't particularly adept at
voicing because it wasn't his thing. So he'd write the charts,
which are his arrangements, and I just revoice him to, uh,
(17:57):
capture the essence of the section.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
So tell me what that means revoicing it in terms
of the well.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
You know, typically, you know, I kind of inherited the
chair for or creating this approach to the horns. And
uh maybe because you know, I played trombone. What I
was hearing was a trombone lead. Yeah, so you know
(18:25):
the trombone because it's a baritone instrument, and the trumpet
and the sacks are above it.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
If I voiced it.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
By nature of the instrument, the disparity and the voices
would not be cool. It wouldn't be the equanimity of
the voicing would not happen, you know. So I had
to I.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
Had to play up an active basically. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
So you know, Yeah, is basically in the upper register
for a lot of the charts, and the trumpet is
in the middle, and then the sacks is right there
in the middle between the trumpet and the trombone, so
it tightens the voicing.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Was the was the trumpet amos always on top?
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Well, there's there are times of times the trumpet, Yeah,
it leaves upstairs too.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Yeah, you know, it isn't always like that.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
But in terms of just the typical accompaniment with the vocals, right, yeah,
the section is more tight. The voicing is tight, so
it has more of a punch, you know. And then
we overdob and we put the trumpet upstairs on the
on the double, and we put the bone, I do
(19:37):
the pedals on the bone, and we might.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Play a wide triad, but then let the rhythm section
play the color notes, the sevens extensions.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
That's the conundrum when we're playing live, you have to
pick there's only three of us, Okay, in live performance.
In the studio we had the luxury of overdobing of
multi so we could we could add all those extensions
in the second take or even the third take. Sometimes
(20:15):
we tripled if we wanted really a big sound. But
live there's only three of us, So it's very important
to be economically precise. You have to pick just the
right three voices to express the nature of the chord.
If it's a seven chord or a nine chord, you're
(20:35):
not going to just play the root and the third
and the fifth. You need to play those extensions to
paint the right colors of that extended chord.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And you'd hope that the base or somebody else was filled.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Well, yeah, yeah, you'll leave yeah, you leave the guts
to the rhythm section.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
But you're saying sometimes you guys would play chord tones
and leave the color notes to sure the rest of
the band. To me, that famous riff phil at the
end of what I just played, it's got the it's
the Is that the trumpet on top doing hitting the
single note? Yes, and then there's the trombone in the sacks.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Are oh bo.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, are they playing the same note orre they playing
different notes?
Speaker 5 (21:21):
Different notes? Different notes?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Okay, were they in maybe thirds or something?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
They're playing thirds. I'm playing at the top note b
b b B.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Chord.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Wow. Wow, But this is the way Robert wanted it.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, I got a kick out of his A
lot of his voicing.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
I left alone because it was really great.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, it's just simple to the point.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
I mean, I have to be at beginnings. Be let
it live, let it.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
I mean the alto trumpet line in the beginning, it's
still I get chills when I hear it.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
I love it. I mean, Robert wrote some great stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
And then for you guys for playing, I mean, I
know different groups. You know, string quartets. People are always
looking at each other. There's a lot of body language
to signal when you're coming in. How did you guys
learn to play so precisely together?
Speaker 5 (22:19):
We guessed, and we guessed write a lot.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
You know what, man, I gotta tell you a lot
of times Jimmy would say, Okay, this next time, we're
gonna go boah.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
We're gonna like we called it the grease, right, We're
gonna put the grease on the second note, and I
would go, he's not gonna put the grease on the
second note, He's gonna do it on a third note.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
So I'd do it on the third and I would
make it too well, and he was I knew he
wasn't gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
How do you know he wasn't going to do it?
Speaker 5 (22:49):
I didn't for sure, but I just guessed right.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
But you know the old adage, you know, the horn
section is like one set of lungs. You know, we
feel each other by its asmosis or something. And you
know when I'll never forget it. When we assembled for
the first time, and we'll to parents basement in Maywell, Illinois,
and we were playing James Brown Stuff.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I heard it. Papa's got a brand new band. Papa's
got I heard it immediately. I said, this is magic.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
You just knew this is you. Three guys were locked in.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
I'm yeah, I was, I mean blown away. It was magic.
I said, this is unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
We'll be back with more from Lee, Lock Nane and
Jimmy Panco after the break.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I want to take you back just a little bit
further before you met what and I'll start with you Lee.
What were how did music come into your life? What
was We were playing with different bands, but but even
before that year a band.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Called Ross and Majestics and Andow Band, and we played
the Irish clubs in Chicago. We played like R and B,
well not R and B, country and western songs, Irish
dances and all kinds of stuff, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And was your family musical? Is that how you?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
My father was a trumpet player.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Oh was that right? Okay?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, he was. He was a band leader and he
never actually left the States. He was a chief warrant
officer in the Army Air Force when it was combined
at the time, and he'd have all these players come through.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
And then go to the front vides. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Did he play with a lot of military.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
I think he had stopped playing by that time. He
was just the band leader and these cats would come
through and then go. He would let him go a
well on the weekend.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
So you sorry, no, absolutely, of course, I'm.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
The cry baby of the band, by the way. Okay,
sentimental irishman. That's well.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
If you can't be sentimental with your father, I don't
see what you can't, Candy.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Absolutely, he was good to them and they then they'd
go over and fight the war and hopefully come back.
But they were some of the greatest players out of
the big bands, you know, Tommy Dorsey and Jimmy Dorsey
and Glenn Miller, all those bands. When they got drafted,
they'd come through his band.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Is that right? Did he have stories about them?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
He didn't like to tell the stories. He wanted to
get away from it when he came home.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Oh, okay, And did you play in school? Did you
do play school school?
Speaker 5 (25:39):
And I started in grade school? Yeah, eleven years old.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Wow, And that was back when in grade school they
walked you into a big room full of brass and
said pick an instrument. Yep, there was a lot of
that in schools.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Well, he had played the trumpet, so that was the
first choice.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
And they just checked my teeth to make sure I
wasn't going to harm myself. You know, my lips were
gonna be bloody mess by the time I got done.
And it seemed to work out, so I never stopped since.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
And then you went to college for music, Yes.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
The Paul University and which where we met.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And were your parents happy about that?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
They weren't too happy when I decided to do this
for a living. They were trying to talk me out
of doing it, and because you know how many people
make it, I was one of the lucky ones. We
were a couple of the lucky ones.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Did when did they finally accept that you'd made it?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I'm not exactly sure, but when they started coming to
shows and.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Going that's pretty good any day now.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I mean like when you mentioned does anybody know what
time it is? That was sort of a crossover from
the big bands to modern rock and roll?
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And then what were your Were you influenced by big
bands growing up?
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah, because my dad had all those records. I used
to to play along with them.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
You guys aren't unique. Their their blood, sweat and tears.
Other bands would have bigger horn. James Brown I think
had a trombone, but not a lot of bands had
your sound. Slim the Family, stonehead a trumpet.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, the brass was always uh a background instrument and
all the other bands. We were a lead voice. We
became a lead band.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Our approach is melodic, whereas a typical horn section is
harmonic and frosting on the cake. Because we are a
lead voice, we are a melodic horn section that interplays
in and around what the lead vocal is doing, so
it becomes intrinsic in the song. If you take the
(27:44):
brass out, there's empty spaces.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Were there models for that that you listened to?
Speaker 5 (27:50):
No, I just I arranged what I heard. I wanted.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
I wanted the section to be a lead voice, and
that wasn't just.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Not shots. You know, do you Emma seeless, right?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
And that's kind of the approach we do, because if
you take it away, you know there's something missing. Maybe
subconsciously it was job security, but you know, you know,
we just felt it out.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Interesting that you say job security, because there are people
now who, for whatever reasons, they have decided that they
are not going to listen to what is popular, and
then twenty years later they're grown up and they decide
to listen to Chicago Transit Authority for the first time
and then give a reaction reaction videos, and they inevitably
(28:50):
ask if the horn players are part of the band,
you know, thinking that it's too big.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Or they are they even real horns?
Speaker 5 (28:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Well, I mean they had to have been real horns
because there was no electronic instruments to be able to
play them back then, you.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Know, and again there was no competit narrative. We invented this,
you know, this approach became our signature.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It does remind me of times a little bit of
he didn't have a vocalist, but like the Mingas band sometimes,
were you guys influenced at all by Oh?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (29:25):
I was a jazz guy, you know, and I brought
that to the table, and Lee was in his his bands.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
I had my own quintet.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
It was modeled after the Crusaders, if you will, canniball. Atterly,
we were doing jazz covers, you know, milestones, give Samba
about better Me and uh, our repertoire kind of evolved
into jazz rock funk. I started, uh, you know, experimenting
(29:56):
with more contemporary motifs. So when I when I became
part of the our thing, I started there and then
now a way, Uh, I have a vocal group to
work with, I have a rhythm section that is rock
and roll to work with.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
I mean Terry kaz blew me away.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
I mean, you know, he was brilliant and Terry couldn't
read music, so he helped me help him and vice versa.
I sat with him for hours because Introduction, which is
the first cut on Chicago. Transmittory is an incredibly intricate piece.
I mean there's every time signature and key change, and
(30:40):
I mean Terry was going for the throat, but he
didn't know how to put it on paper. He didn't
you know, he heard it, but he didn't write. He
couldn't write it, he couldn't read it. Yeah, so I
had to sit with him and Okay, this is a
B minor, this is an F sharp major, this is
(31:00):
a flat and fifth.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
You know, I had to create a chord chart.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Only then could I arrange the song for the because
I needed a roadmap. And Terry, in sitting with me,
learned eventually how to read charts. And I learned how
to embrace rock and roll because I had been a
jazz guy. So working with Terry opened my brain up
(31:27):
to you know, guitar man, you know rock and roll.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
This is awesome. I can put horns with this, this
is cool.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So do you remember meeting Terry for the first time?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah, it was he Walt asked him to come over
to school to Paul to talk about their gig or
some shit. I don't I don't remember, but yeah, he
and Danny Canea de Paul and I met Terry.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
To Paul, what was your first impression?
Speaker 5 (31:57):
He was wild. He was wild.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
You know. He had this kind of kangaroo jacket and
long blonde hair, and he was a big guy, big
sturdy Norwegian, and he was gruff, you know. And there
is something, you know, very cave man Terry, and you know,
(32:23):
I was immediately taken aback by it. You know, it
was like, oh, this guy is very interesting. Yeah. And
I heard him play.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
It was like, holy shit, he was playing bass. Well,
he was playing bass.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
I think it was before we were in Walt's basement
that I heard him playing guitar. Somewhere. I don't know,
maybe he was just horsing around. It might have been
the apartment he used to sit between custom speakers, you know,
those were his headphones.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
It was and man.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
But then when we first got together Walt's parents, I
really heard Terry.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
My jaw dropped.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I mean, this guy was like, yeah, God, feel his
feel I mean he felt it in every inch of
his body.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
And you know, you couldn't help but be.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
But he's also a great rhythm player too.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
Great rhythm player and single lead vocals sing the book. Yeah,
he did it all.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
He did it all. I've never seen or heard anybody
who can do that.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
And then what was your impression of Robert when you
met him? Do you remember meeting him for the first time.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I think Walt actually met Robert first. He went he
was he went to a club where was it Bobby Charles?
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Bobby Charles and the Wanderers. The Wanderers.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
It was at sub dive on the South Side, and
Robert was playing acoustic piano and Walt. Walt asked him
if you knew if he played B three Oregon because
we didn't have a bass player, and Walt was interested pedals.
To save money, man, maybe we could find an organ
(34:13):
player that could play the bass pedals on the organ
and we wouldn't have to pay a bass player.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
And Roberts said, oh yeah, man, I play organ. Never
done in his life.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
He immediately went out and bought I used them three
organ and started woodshedding at home, so when when we
got together, he could at least I.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Think we did that for about six months or so
before we.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Before we met Peter, and then you hired Peter. Do
you remember meeting Was he like a highre like you
went looking for a bass player?
Speaker 3 (34:47):
He was leaving. He was in the process of leaving.
The exceptions that were that were like the drinking and
Cuddy was sort of They were a Top forty band.
They were everybody played forty five minutes, fifteen off. They
would take their fifteen minutes off and go backstage and
learn another song, another song, and then come out and
(35:11):
try it on the next set. Hell did they get
But they would sound exactly like the record.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
Yeah. And they had.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Two amazing vocalists, Jimmy Vincent and Peter and they were
really they were like the thing, you know. They appeared
on local TV and they were probably one of the
most popular club acts in the Midwest at that time.
We were at that time, we were beginning to get
(35:40):
fired from these clubs because we started discovering our own voice,
particularly particularly Robert Lamb, who started bringing original material into
the band, and we'd start trying those songs out at clubs,
and no sooner we do that, the club owners would
would come to us and say, hey, you play that stuff,
(36:02):
You're out of here. I want Top forty. That's what
my customers want to come to hear. And so we
either had to dick to the Top forty or get
fired and we started fired.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
This sort of set a pattern for the rest of
your career.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Not only that, we set a pattern for the type
of stuff that we were doing, and the and the
way we were feeling about life, and some of the
illegal things that we were doing on our fifteen minute breaks.
As opposed to having a drink with the boys, we
were going out and yeeling smoking a joint instead.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
You weren't learning a song, so we were, but we.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Were taking that drinking audience we weren't doing in a
new song, and we would take that drinking new audience
away to come and listen to us. And that's what
became interesting for Setara to come and hear us.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Well here's the deal man. Yeah, there were, you know,
no scenery.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
We started getting fired from these typical nightclubs. A club
opened on Rush Street called Barnaby's that actually encouraged new stuff.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
You know. They it was wow, Okay, this is what
we've been looking for.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
And we got a gig at Barnaby's and we could
do they they loved it. We could do our thing.
We were doing expanded arrangements of hit songs. There was
a group called Vanilla Fudge. They inspired that as well.
They do you know, extended versions with alternate chord changes,
(37:32):
and you know, so we started doing that and then
and then that evolved into completely original material, which we
were able to do at Barnaby's. One engagement at Barnabys,
we were an opening act for The Exceptions. Peter se
Tera and the Exceptions were the headliner. And he heard
(37:55):
us doing these beetle covers. He was a huge Beatles fan.
He heard us doing Magical Mystery tour and got to
get you in my life and it blew him away.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
Next thing, you know, he was in the band.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
And then how soon after that did you leave for
Los Angeles?
Speaker 4 (38:13):
All of it started in February of sixty eight and
in June sixty seven, I'm sorry, And in June of
sixty eight we headed to California, So a year and
a half.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And you also did you tour with Janis Choplin? Why
have that rank?
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Well, yeah, we met her at the Fillmore West and
along we also we opened for Jimmy Hendrix. We were
at the Whiskey a Go Go It' Sunset Strip. We
were opening for Albert King and we were in the
dressing room waiting to go back on and there was
a knock on the door and we opened the door
(38:50):
and Hendrix is standing there and we're going, whoa is.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
That Jimmy Hendricks?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
You know, and you knew his stuff?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Oh yeah, oh he was.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
I was playing like Jimmy Hendrix before we heard Jimmy Hendrix.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Yeah, we were. In fact, we were doing his cover.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
We were in Fox the Lady in Purple Heads, in
our in our set, and Hendricks heard him. And before
we went back, I say, he came to the dressing
room he said, you guys have a guitar player that's
better than me and a horn section that sounds like
one set of lungs.
Speaker 5 (39:21):
Do you guys want to go on the road? Fuck? Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
And next thing you know, we opened for his summer tour.
We were the opening acting for him.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
It was at the end of his career and the
end of Genesis, but it was our foot in the
door to the business. We never took our foot out
of the door.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
What was he like to tour with?
Speaker 4 (39:44):
He was very introspective, very shy, quiet, And it was
funny because you know, we traveled together. Terry was nervous
around him, and he was nervous around Terry. You know,
he didn't know how to approach each other. Eventually they
got comfortable and they started trading ideas.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
And you know, Terry would love to have played with him.
He would have joined Jimmy. Hendry expand in a flash
and left us.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
See you guys, well we were there was actually some
chatter amongst us about maybe doing a project together with
him with Jimmy, and of course he left us too early,
and then Terry left us too early.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
He also and maybe it was Walt who told the
story that he was telling you how he felt tremendous
pressure to have another hit and that he was finding Hendrick. Yeah,
he was finding it very hard to probably.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I mean that's that sort of goes along with the
business itself. You know, it's always what have you done lately?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, you just don't think that would apply to Jimmy Hendrix.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
It applies to everyone who's ever picked up an instrument.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
I forget which artist it was. I think Joni Mitchell,
You're only as good as your last hit. How quickly
did they forget? Almost infinitely. That's another reason that this
Journey of ours is such a phenomenon, because these songs
broke that mold. These songs have become timeless, these songs
(41:21):
we are along for the ride. We're just blessed with
this ride that this music has given us.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Do you think it's the songs those yeah, Oh.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
My gosh, yes, I mean these songs and we hear
it every night. These songs have become fabrics of lives, soundtracks.
These people are in there, they're singing louder in the band.
It's like it's a communion. Little did we know. I mean,
we are so blessed to have this phenomenon occur that
(41:51):
never would have occurred to us.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
But now the music business as opposed to the fans.
You know, you found out at some point you didn't
have publishing. Wasn't that right, You didn't have publishing rights.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Oh no, Gercil took the publisher rights. So I mean,
I prefer not to talk about him anymore. Yeah, he
enough already, so he discovered us, thank you.
Speaker 5 (42:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
But then, but then Columbia dropped you after you made
them just a gigantic stack of money.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
Well, we made him a stack of money. But at
the time they dropped us, we were managed by a
guy that made a deal that they couldn't refuse.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
And Walter yet Nikoff.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
Agreed to the deal, and they realized after they went
back to New York that they had just screwed themselves
because they offered us way more than they thought we
were worth.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
They were never going to come up and they were
never going to recover.
Speaker 4 (42:55):
So they, you know, they let us go, and they
released everything they had over and over, repackage, repackaged.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
And started saying that we were done. Yeah, you know,
we weren't done, but you know, so Irving Azoff picked
us up and put us on Full Moon Records, and
not a bad guy to pick you up. Another historical thing,
just going.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Back to that first album, how how long after you'd
been in LA did you record your Chicrgo Transit Authority?
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Six months we got to LA and June sixty eight.
We were in New York in January sixty nine beginning
the recording of Chicago Transit Authority.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And now that was your first record deal. Columbia was a
little nervous, but you insisted on a double album. I'm
fascinated by that.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Well, we we as a band realized that these cuts
were longer cuts if we had done and Gercio completely
agreed and supported our vision here. We couldn't have captured
full picture this music with one disc, and he tried
to convince Clive Davis of that, and Class said, you
(44:03):
know budget before you know, our budget doesn't allow that
for a new artist. Of course, it was the right decision, Yeah,
and every The next two albums were also double albums
because Columbia realized that it was necessary.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
One last break and were back with Lee, Lock Nane
and Jimmy Panko. My introduction to you was from my
brother David, who was a trumpet player, and he brought
home the Carnegie Hall record.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Now, I know you don't like the sound the fourth album.
That was the fourth album.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
That was the best they could do at the time,
And I didn't realize that until fifty years later when
I did it.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
When I Lee did a remaster that is brilliant. Really Yeah,
He and an engineer took it into his studio and
gave it the digital.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Ten months later. But we had to take away all
of the noise and electronics and everything just to get
down to the instruments. And then we edited that to
get as much of the sound of Carnegie Hall out
of it, so we would delete everything up to the
(45:27):
whatever horn or voice it was, and then fade into
that note, let the note play finish, and then fade
out of it. And we did that for each instrument,
every drum, every well. Actually the drums were easier because
(45:47):
you can put gates on those, but also to build
up the sound of the drums, Tim Jessup, the engineer,
put together a drum sound, probably like ten tracks of drums,
but anyway, yeah, he built he built a drum sound.
So by the time we finished, we were able to
(46:08):
move the music forward as though you were sitting.
Speaker 5 (46:11):
In the audience.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
And for me it being the arranger, it was a
blessing me because my beef with Carnegie Hall, and again
it was lack of technology. That's what we had. Oh yeah,
and the horns. I couldn't listen to. The horns sounded
like kazoos. It wasn't our sound. It wasn't our big sound.
And Lee brought that back.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
But now most people the Carnegie Hall is considered it
the greatest acoustics at least in the world. What was
the issue, just the way it was, Mike, No, no, no, it's.
Speaker 5 (46:42):
Rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
It's a Cardigie Hall is built for acoustic music. That's
the difference. And if you put amplema, it's just you
can probably still hear some of the notes now towards
the building I here Chicago.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
That.
Speaker 5 (46:59):
Nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yeah, it's still when when I sit in my chair,
I screened a little of the sound out. So but
tell me about it's such a an amazing piece of music.
The ballet. It's got seven it's got seven parts make
Me Smile. I think it as at least two key
changes in it. And I'm not going to talk about
make Me Smile because I will encourage people listening to
(47:24):
go to YouTube to you know. Rick Biatto did a
wonderful did a wonderful breakdown of that song.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
He's amazing.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
He's got yeah, no, he's.
Speaker 5 (47:38):
I try to catch all his breakdowns. He does a
lot of it.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
He's done. He's done great ones, but I think yours
is one of the best.
Speaker 5 (47:44):
He's an amazing musicologist.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Yeah, yeah, he really is. And he does a fabulous
breakdown of make Me Smile, and you can hear all
the parts, and it's it's just a blast. But then
there's so much to say anxiety's moments, and then there's
the West Virginia Fantasies, which features you Lee on trumpet
(48:06):
beautiful beautiful trumpet line.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
I never learned what any of those names, because.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Well, you know the part where you're playing beautiful trumpet parts,
that's what it's called.
Speaker 5 (48:20):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
I mean, I come from it the other night because
I had a clip for a performance and when we're
when we're on stage, gig it, I can't hear a
lot of the nuances because there's so much going on
in my ears.
Speaker 5 (48:33):
And I heard that piece very.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Clearly, and your tone on that thing is so nice
because I had never heard it on stage.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
And then there's the beautiful counterpart where Walter would come
in on that was was that all written out? Was
any of this written over?
Speaker 5 (48:52):
Every note was written out?
Speaker 4 (48:53):
When I wrote the ballet, I just approached it as
a multi movement piece.
Speaker 5 (48:59):
You know, you're still writing it. When we were recording in.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
The Chicago, did you did you have a like a
classical piece of music you had in mind as a model.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
Not necessarily, but I wanted to create as a peon
perhaps to the great classic composers.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
Hey, why can't we do this? And you know rock
and roll?
Speaker 4 (49:19):
You know, so I just wrote an extended piece and
one movement evolved into another, into another. But I didn't
have anything titled in movements. That was Gercio's idea, said Jimmy,
let's title each one of those departures, each one of
those segues. So we have actual titles on these movements,
(49:43):
and we wind up with a almost a mini symphony
kind of approach.
Speaker 5 (49:50):
Well.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Also, the business, the studios and record companies were allowing
unlimited copyrights at that time, and within a few years
after that they cut it down to just ten copyrights
on a record completely changed writers in the record business
(50:13):
because they didn't want to share. Once you had ten
songs on a record, you wrote the eleven song, that
the writers would have to start sharing their royalties. They
didn't want to be doing that, so it completely changed
their writing.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
And I could get nasty here, but I'm not going to.
I'm Christian.
Speaker 5 (50:32):
Hey, more titles, more publishing.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
Well that's what that's where I was leading. But so anyway,
the greed changes everything. So we were just playing music
and writing music, and that's what we loved. Still to
this day.
Speaker 5 (50:48):
I had been listening to Bach.
Speaker 4 (50:51):
I am totally a fan of Johann Bach, I mean,
arguably the most perfect voicer in the history of music.
I mean his voicing and his intervals were perfect. He
was the template in music theory. Bach was a perfectionist,
(51:12):
but Bach also cooked. Bach grooved. So here's this perfectionist
that had an amazing feel as well. And I was
listening to the Brandenburg Concertos. I got absorbed in how
did he do this?
Speaker 5 (51:29):
How did he do this? It totally drew me in. Well.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
That inspired me to sit at a piano and start
fooling around with our peggios. Do do do do Do
Do Do Do Do do a La Bach and Color
of My World was directly inspired by the Brandenburg Concertos.
It's a twelve bar turnaround of major sevens and minor sevens.
(51:57):
It's around and I put a vocal over it and
then a flute so over it.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Wow, it's just amazing. But the changes in it are very,
very interesting. They're not they're all relative.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
There's a note in each major seven chord that that
sets up the next major seven or minor seven chord,
so they're they're.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Always using common notes to create the.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
Yeah do do do do do do do do do
do do do do Do.
Speaker 5 (52:29):
I only changed the F T an A to.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Make it an A minor seven from an F major
to an A writer, so they're relative.
Speaker 5 (52:37):
All the chords are relative, but they.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Flow, They flow beautiful, so it's not diatonic. It's not no,
but it's but it has that you use the common
tones to keep it exactly well. The whole thing is
just amazing.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Thank you now.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
But Lee, it took you a little longer to become
a writer.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Yeah, and these guys were already writers. I came in
with call on Me, you want to listen to my song?
So I had my little cassette put it in and had.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
You presented a lot of songs before call on Me.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
This was my first song wow, that I presented, and
I had to say though, you came out with a bang.
Came out with a bang, and Sata decided to sing
it and became a hit. It did come in still
hit today. It's going to be on this fiftieth anniversary album, so.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
It's pretty cool as it should be.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
And it was on the Chicago seven and then The
Greatest Hits, which we initially thought was going to be
our last album, because once you do the Greatest hits. Historically,
most bands are history after that.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
And did you think that was And it was that
around the time that Terry died.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
Or Terry died shortly after that, but it was something
that was going on, so it did enter our hits.
But we just kept playing music. We just kept playing
our shows.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
So there wasn't a There wasn't a point you thought
it's been a ten year run.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
No, because we kept working. We were interested in playing.
He was four audiences. We loved playing for live audiences. Yeah,
and you still do today.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
But even after Terry died, did you feel was there
a moment you felt like we can't do this? He
was such a he was such a huge force.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Not a matter I can't but he was the leader
at the time, and we had to decide that we
are still together. He would want us to keep going,
So let's do that.
Speaker 5 (54:34):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
I'm only halfway through my questions and we're out of time,
So you're gonna You're gonna come back at some point.
We're gonna keep going. Yeah, man, this has been.
Speaker 5 (54:43):
There won't be sixty more years though, right planning?
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah, you'll be you'll be talking to uh if my
brain's in a jar. That's all you'll be talking to.
It's been a huge honor. Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (54:56):
Honor.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
An episode description, you'll find a link to our favorite
Chicago tracks, as well as the fiftieth anniversary re release
of Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest hits. Be sure to check
out YouTube Die Slash Broken Record podcast to see all
of our video interviews, and be sure to follow us
on Instagram at the Broken Record pot. You can follow
us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced
(55:20):
and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric
Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken
Record is production of Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
If you love this show and others.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
From Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is
a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free
listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin
Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show,
please remember to share, rate, and review us on your
podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
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