March 10, 2020 • 51 mins
Bassist, songwriter, and composer Esperanza Spalding sits with Bruce Headlam to discuss her latest work and the opera she’s writing with the legendary saxophonist Wayne Shorter. They also discuss why Esperanza shies away from being labeled a prodigy, what it’s like jamming at Joni Mitchell's house, and how, despite her improvisational approach, she’s so much more than just a jazz musician.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Pushkin. When Esperanza Spalding won Best New Artist at the
Grammys in twenty eleven, she made headlines for two reasons.
One she was the first ever jazz musician to win
the award, and two she stole Best New Artist from
Justin Bieber. The believers are still pissed. Since that first
(00:28):
big win, Esperanza has won three more Grammys and released
seven studio albums, including twenty seventeen's Exposure, which was conceived, written,
and recorded entirely in seventy seven hours on Facebook Live.
In twenty eighteen, to released twelve Little Spells. It was
inspired by the Japanese healing art ray Ki, with each
song composed as a spell for a specific part of
(00:50):
the body. Looking at her body of work and how
she's evolved from a young, prodigious stand up bass player
and jazz composer to an experimental, multimedia conceptual artist, it's
easy to see why Esperanza Spalding sees herself as more
than a jazz musician, but her improvisational approach to turning
abstract ideas into emotionally moving pieces of music pretty much
(01:12):
makes her the personification of jazz, whether she likes it
or not this is broken record liner notes for the
digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Esperanza sat with Bruce Heilom
and Brooklyn to talk about the instinctual way she makes music,
(01:33):
jamming with Joni Mitchell, and the opera she's writing with
the legendary Wayne Shorter that's set to be released next year. Wow,
this voice is really beautiful. It's got a good vibe
and it's huge. This is actually reminding me how much
I love to be in the studio. It's been about
a year, and I think that means it's time to
go back soon. You haven't been in a studio in
(01:55):
a year, and was for that. That was for twelve
Little Spells, for the four Bonus Spells. It's actually sixteen
Little Spells now because because of some of the finagling
that one must do when you're dancing through the music industry,
I wanted twelve and for there to be a second
(02:18):
wave and reason to talk about the project again. I
was asked and encouraged right for more songs, because apparently
I'm I've yet to grow into the awareness of what
it is to generate music as commodity. My first instinct
is already to figure out a way to just release
(02:38):
it big and around and wide. Um. So I wanted
to release the twelve Little Spells one every day at
twelve twelve leading up to my birthday, and I wanted
to just blast them out because I wanted the the
effect of the Spells to reach as many people as possible. Um.
(02:59):
But that's it. It's hard to capitalize on that approach.
So in collaboration with the label, we came up with
the idea, well, let's make former bonus Spells and then
there's a reason to go get the record. So now
we should explain twelve Little Spells, which was your last
full album. Yeah, they were twelve songs now sixteen, but
(03:21):
they were based on different parts of the body. Did
the concept come first for that or did the songs
come first? It came as a hit, almost like an
instruction manual. I can remember I was in transit. I
don't remember from where to where, but I know that
by the time I got home to my apartment, I
(03:42):
had written out the outline of the whole project that
it was twelve Little Spells and the title and what
the title was saying, which was an announcement of what
this work is as an interim piece before the next
big project. So the titles twelve little spells to tide
you over to the next full thing. Touch in my, Touch,
in mine, the longing deep down. You have to dance now, no,
(04:05):
all limbs are readying to rise, dancing the animal with others.
And it was a it's a sort of poem explanation
of what this project is until the next project, which
is about dancing and movement and dancing that the wild, untethered,
free forms of dance with structured presentation. Um. Yeah. So
(04:28):
by the time I got home, here were the song titles,
here were their effects on the body, and I had
my instruction manual. And then I spent a month and
some change just assembling that structure, assembling that entity from
the instruction manual. So you wrote all that on the subway, No,
I wrote it all in the castle in Italy. Okay,
(04:50):
but m yeah, that was amazing. That was amazing. Every
morning I would be, um, you know, go for where
will you pick up your espresso in the morning if
you so desired? And they had me in the converted
pig pen because I didn't want to be in the cask,
because I figured it would be extremely haunted. So I
would go get my espresso and then walk around the
(05:12):
priffrey of the castle back towards my converted pig pen,
which is on another, you know, part of the grounds,
and I would pass Azar Nafisi almost every day, who
was working on her book, And just that process of witnessing,
you know, a master craftsman sitting and witnessing the development
of their piece page by page, you know, was the fuel,
(05:34):
part of the fuel I think for making this happen,
because you know, the creative process is abstract. It feels
sometimes like you're doing nothing. So it was so encouraging
and affirming to witness another person in that practice, accumulating
that body that they came to work on. Now there's
always the descriptions of you you were prodigy, or this
you were that. I would like to lean into the
(05:56):
microphone now and spell those myths that I was a
prodigy or anything like that. I wasn't a prodigy. I am.
I have a talent in music, and I found my
way early on. But I have seen prodigies, and I
know prodigies, and it's a thing. It's like it's like
(06:18):
a subset of the species, you know, and I just
I partly want to dispel that myth because I think
it it's misleading. You know, it makes it seem like
maybe there's something special or something different fundamentally about you know,
my makeup as an as an entity, as a humanoid,
(06:40):
and it's not true. You know, there are some folks
who are and they're exceedingly rare, and then there are
other folks who just figured out a way to get
a lot of practice in early on and it accumulates
and then you can do things that other ten year
olds can't do. But it's best of it because I
(07:01):
was a prodigy. It's because I I played a lot.
You know, I practice a lot. Well is that good?
Because you know prodigies and you know, being a prodigy
often is it's maladaptive. They don't. It's if you're great
at something when you're five, often you're doing the same
thing at thirty five. And people are you know, there's
always those those great classical musicians who are you know,
(07:24):
who are described as the fifty year old child prodigy.
You know, they can't kind of get past what they
did at a a certain age, right. And I the part
that I resonate with about that quote unquote prodigy part
is simply the part where nobody can explain why you
(07:45):
can do what you can do, you know, And I
think part of what sets a prodigy apart is that
for the same amount of time that their friend in
the music school puts in, this kid just gets more done. Somehow, somehow,
there's a to do more for reasons that nobody can explain.
And at a certain point, when you want to expand
(08:06):
past what it is you've become good at, but you
don't remember why you can do what you do, that
is intimidating and stressful it can be. And I can't
appreciate why you wouldn't you wouldn't lean into that territory.
And there are some aspects about you know, my practice
that I it's like abousing before the divination. There are
(08:27):
some aspects that I don't know. I don't know how
that happens or how it works. But when I try
to apply that to like a new medium, let's say,
like writing an opera doesn't work, then you discover like, hmm, okay,
there's a process here, there's a there's a skill set
that must be developed to yield the same results over here.
As I'm able to yield over there without having necessarily
(08:49):
mastered that skill set, you know, So just saying I
have compassion for the fifty year old child prodigies out there.
What was your first experience of music then? What do
you remember? Well, it would be my mother singing in
the house and making up little songs about whatever was
(09:16):
happening in the moment. So she she had this one.
You don't need to cry because your mama is by
your mama who love you and will never never leave you.
You don't need to cry because your mama is by
you know. I don't know where that comes from, but she,
she would always have this sort of soundtrack happening to life.
(09:37):
There was a wake up song, there was a prepping
the meal song. And that is my first memory of music.
My first memory of music out there was hearing your
mom on my stage's neighborhood. Like I've said that so
many times in my life, but it was and hearing
your hearing your mom, hearing the box cello suite. I
(10:00):
don't know if it was aomara, was the box teller sueeze,
but by the way, he was a vehicle and on
mister Rodgers neighborhood, mister Rodgers neighbor which also the interesting
piece about that episode is after Yoma performed, they went
(10:21):
to make Believe Land, and in that episode, the next
thing that happened is Lady Amberlin was dressed as an
upright bass and the other woman character was playing an
upright bass. And I don't have a conscious memory of
(10:42):
seeing that. But that, again, was like the download that
all came at once, and then it's a humbling reckoning
of like, oh, I'm again just I'm just following the
programming that I didn't even realize I received, you know,
a five. So now was that just a memory or
on mister Rodgers Neighborhood that actually happened. I only know
(11:04):
that that happened because I've seen it since I don't
have a conscious memory of seeing that in the episode.
What I remember is hearing I didn't know it was
about tells at the time. I can remember the prickling
in the this um almost like pain, you know, such
a deep sensation of attraction to something that I felt
(11:24):
towards the music that Yoma was playing. No conscious memory
of seeing the basses. But later when I saw the episode,
I went, oh damn, I'm just I've just following the instructions.
You know that all came at the same time. Um,
those are my first memories of music. Well, you can
do worse than following, mister rogers omen I agree. I
think you did well. And then your first instrument was what, well,
(11:47):
it would have been violent. They didn't have any um,
half sized or quarter sized cellos at the program that
I first enter music through, so it was fortunately or
unfortunately violin and that yeah, unfortunately you didn't like the violin.
(12:09):
I didn't really like the violet. I like other people
playing the violin, but yeah, I was seeking that sound.
I was seeking what I heard. I wanted the cello,
and thank god, and then I just get past the
tell I want right up to the next floor, up
to the base. And then when did the bass start?
You know, I don't know if the bass has started yet.
(12:30):
It's such a immense territory and for all the technical
facility one can accumulate early on again serves a very
profound function in music. And I I think that the
older one gets, the more one matures, the better they
(12:56):
are at actually being a bass player. So I don't know,
I don't know if bass has begun yeah, when you
started playing. How much were you practicing? I don't remember really,
probably a lot, I don't. I don't remember those early days.
I just remember um playing by ear and suddenly hearing
(13:20):
this music that I was told was jazz and having
a very deep, again visceral reaction to whatever they were doing,
you know, having no understanding of what it was or
how it worked. Um, yeah, are you still that kind
of instinctual player or because this is what scares people
(13:42):
about jazz. It's incredibly complicated. It seems like endless scales
is all that theory? Do you know all that stuff?
You know some? Yeah? Yeah, and it never ends because
the in not because I don't feel authorized to speak
on behalf of the genre in anyway, because I would
(14:06):
say I'm a jazz singer when I need to be,
and I can play bass for the jazz musicians, but
the center piece, like the center of what it is
I do isn't really jazz because of that practice and
devotion that is required. You don't think you have it,
(14:29):
not in that way, not in that way as an instrumentalist,
which is fine. It's cool because I can still support
the instrumentalists who are in that devotional, devotional practice. But
that's how you started. You were you were known as
a jazz bassis, absolute best new artist I think, right right? Yeah,
And still I wonder what the parallel isn't writing? It's
(14:52):
like you can support, you can be a part of
something without actually being a devotee of that craft. Well,
most writing is all you mean writing music or writing,
I mean writing word. So what do you know? Because
if I go on YouTube, I see you playing with
(15:13):
Herbie Hancock and check Korea. Yeah, what are they? What
are you giving them? Then there's got to be more
technically sophisticated players are at least more theoretically sophisticated players
than you. You're doing this by instinct. What do they
get when I asked you to come and play with me?
What what am I getting? You're getting listening and lightspeed
(15:40):
response and some a dance floor for your dance. I'm
giving you a moving dance floor. And I have studied
some of the theory, just to say partially, I like
to rearticulate this because for any young aspiring instrumentalist listening,
(16:06):
I want to make sure that I'm speaking that truth
that to be a quote unquote jazz musician like, don't
listen to me. Listen to Scott Colly or you know,
Ben Williams, Christian McBride or Linda o or players who
if you if you want to have a queue into
(16:26):
the expression of the jazz pedagogy, listen to those bass players.
I'm doing something that's valuable and beautiful in works and supports,
but it's not really coming from that kind of devotional space.
It's very intuitive and very much in the presence, very
much something that evolves in relationship with players. You know, So, yes,
I can play with her, but I can play with
(16:48):
chick because I'm I'm becoming what is needed in that
moment with my technical facility to you know, come as
my voice, as my listening as my voice. It's almost
like an active listening with players like that. So are they?
Are they because you're a band leader as well. When
(17:08):
you're playing with players like that, are they kind of
setting the tone and then you're responding? Is it more
call response with them? Yeah, it's it's more like, well
with somebody like you know, Herbie Hancock or Jerry Allen.
They want to have the conversation that can only happen
with you in the room. It's not like, Okay, I
(17:30):
hear these ten songs, you happen to be the one here,
so yeah, come get in on this and make this
work for me. Especially with Herbie, especially with Jerry, it's
more like, oh, who are you? What do we sound
like together? And in that space it might kind of
be an advantage not be too tethered to a technical
or historical or pedagogical approach to making the music, because
(17:52):
then you're free to discover what's actually happening in real time,
which might not sound like anything that that player did before.
It's going to have their character ristic. But that is
my superpower, you know, of being president, going like whoa
what what is this? Actually? Right now? Let's make it
and it won't probably happen again. And that was that,
You know, do you have to do You have to
(18:15):
make eye contact with a player. To do that, you
have to see what he's doing just here? Really, could
you do it blindfolded? Yeah? Of course really? Yeah, of course.
I don't look. I don't look at the instrument I
want to play. No, I don't mean your instrument. I
mean I mean I mean the combination of like if
if you're playing with you know Wayne Shorter here be
hancocked there. Yeah, that's a that's a great day. I
(18:37):
wish that would happen more. But you know, string quartets,
the players kind of have to see each other, they
have to see the cues. I'm wondering how important is
that in when you're playing in a jazz combo. Well,
I'm thinking of I'm thinking of Wayne's quartet. They are
(18:58):
very much connected with each other, looking at each other.
But I am positive they could do everything they do
blindfolded because they're they're co composing a scene. You know,
It's like, I'm sure actors could have a perfectly potent
and coherent improvised scene blindfolded because you're you're responding to
(19:24):
the reality of emotional response. You're responding to what comes
at you, and eventually a momentum of the scene is
generated and that is propelling you forward as much as
you're creating it as you go. You know, that mode
of performance, co composition improvisation is like that. Okay, next
time you're with Herbie Hancock, I want you to blindfold
(19:46):
yourself and see see how it comes. I don't I
wouldn't never ask him to do that, but I'll think
I'll just I'll hold it in the space and see
what happens if I don't look. I mean, I remember
dancing tango a little bit when I was a teammate,
and you know, there's certain fundamentals that you learn, and
it's an improvisational dance form, right Obviously, when you're dancing
(20:10):
with a phenomenal dancer, everything just kind of works, you know.
And I remember that experience of being very inexperienced and
getting on the dance floor and just be like, oh damn,
I can do I'm good. Shoot everything. I'm twisting and
turning and kicking all kinds of stuff, and then you
go dance with the next partner and it's like fuck.
You know, it's like a fumble, looks like a like
(20:32):
a civil ware drawer without a divider, you know. So
there's also something to be said for the potency of
the master, you know that partially just by playing with
somebody like that, the the immensity of their musicianship and
ability to make everything work kind of heightens your own
(20:53):
capacity and shows what is possible. We'll be back with
more from Esperanza Spalding after the break. We're back with
more from Esperanza Spalding. What's it like working with Wayne Shorter?
You talked about his writing before, Ye, what's it like
(21:13):
playing with him? We've actually only played a few times,
and it felt like visiting another planet. It truly felt
like we've been living on one musical planet your whole life,
seeing different lands and territories and cities and towns and
(21:34):
ruralities and municipalities, and then you step onto what you
think is just another land. You know, music starts, Okay,
here we are, and all of a sudden you recognize, like, no,
all of this is different. All of this is extraterrestrial,
(21:56):
all of this is expansive. All of this is just
more and different and shaped like the Earth. And maybe
the gravity is similar, but it's not. He is so
incredibly adept at connecting seemingly disparit ideas in a room,
(22:22):
in a conversation, and musically that is, it's like it
feels like you have to start listening at light speed
to be able to connect what just came over there
with what's happening over there. That is nebulous. I apologize
it's hard to describe it, but is it scary playing
(22:44):
with someone like that? Yeah? Sure, yeah, very much. So, Yeah,
And why is it scary? Why is it scary? What
does scary? I mean in that context? Is it scary?
It's scary in a sense of oh damn, can I
can I hang? Can I help? Can I woo? Can
(23:06):
I feel free? What is that of the most that
I can bring into the space? Will it have a place?
Will it work? You know? You know, it's like sitting
at a table and a conversations already happening, and you're like,
I don't know what anybody here is talking about, but
I'm being asked to come and speak. So it's something
(23:28):
about having the trust that your life is enough, that
what you've lived endows you with insight and perspective and presence,
and that the other people at the table actually want
to talk with you. So it's not about I'm able
to refer to the things that you all have studied
and know. It's something about having the confidence that at
(23:49):
any point in time we can find like a common
space to converse. Do you always find do you always
feel confident when you're playing with someone like that you
can find it? You ever feel nervous, Like this guy's
talk talking about something I can't really of course we
don't we all. I mean hopefully that's how you know
you're expanding and having new tastes and new experiences. You know.
(24:12):
It's not always feel equipped like I'm gonna come in
and slay. I don't mean that, but are there times
you're playing with someone I'm gonna use Wayne Shorter and
you just feel like, man, I'm just disappointing here. I'm
not contributing. No, Well, listening is contributing. I mean, that's
so much of the gift of somebody who's so full,
like a Wayne Shorter, just hanging out with him at
(24:34):
the house. I mean just just listening is becomes dialogue,
you know, and becomes dynamic, um, because we we need
to be heard too, you know. For all that poetry
and wisdom and philosophy, philosophical playmaking that one can do,
(24:54):
it's not fun when you're just by yourself in the house, right.
I think he's really gonna and a musing himself. But
um yeah, that's that's valuable. That's what I mean by
being the moving dance floor. It is. It's valuable. It's valuable. Um.
So a very different artist did you like and I'd
(25:15):
like to know more about her influence is Joni Mitchell. Oh, Now,
Joni Mitchell is interesting to me because she has she
seems to have two audiences. Everybody likes everybody knows Big
Yellow Taxi and both sides now and people love her
and revere for being part of a generation. But jazz
people really like her. What is it you're hearing in her?
(25:36):
What inspires you? I mean, jazz people like creative seeking music.
You know, in general, all the jazz people that I
know don't just listen to jazz music. They we they
(25:57):
listen to move that seems to be reching and finding
new combinations of the sounds that we're all working with
out here essentially, So what is it about her music
that what are you hearing there? I think if I
(26:20):
actually try to articulate it, it's going to be a lie.
Because beyond the obvious that points that we all are
drawn to, like the poetic imagery and the unexpected way
that she illuminates a scene and brings us into a
place in a space, and an emotional understanding of a
(26:43):
person or a relationship, there's just some there's something magical
and magnetic which doesn't tell you anything, but I the
way where I feel the draw. I can't honestly articulate. Um.
(27:04):
I think part of it is the attraction to somebody
showing possibility that's so far beyond anything that's been revealed
in that genre or mode of playing before, you know,
as a quote unquote folk musician or as a poetter,
as a lyricist. It's like, you know, watching I can't
(27:32):
explain it. I should say, when I even said her name,
you sort of, yeah, put your hand up to your
heart like you're slightly stricken. And that's the that's the
that's the Yeah, that's the mystery, you know, that's the mystery.
You can hear strands of the sort of thing she
does in I think particularly your the Emily album. Okay, cool,
(27:55):
that's when I discover her music. Was that right? Okay?
Have you ever met her? Yeah? For sure. I jammed
at her house a few times, Okay this year last year.
Telling that story now, well, I I say, I very
surreal experience. Actually back up, tell us that story. How
(28:18):
you how you ended up there? Who was there? Well,
the first time that I went to her house, I
went to her house because um we okay, I had
to back up a step further. Last year, I moved
to la for seven months to be near Wayne and
(28:44):
to be on the ground moving forward the development this opera,
because I felt like it had gotten stagnant somehow, you know,
just the logistics of work, shopping in and getting it
off of the page and out of the speculative into
the real, and I thought I need to just go there.
You know, Wayne was having some really intense health issues,
(29:05):
and I wanted him to feel like this thing is
really happening, like we're doing this, we're doing this. So
that turned into some very inventive approaches to making workshops happen,
Orchestral workshops happened, scene workshops happen. At a time when
he couldn't physically write, he was suffering from a metabolic tremor,
(29:31):
and so we had to figure out a way to
get what he had written up into an orchestra. And
I thought that the most invigorating thing for him would
be to actually feel coming back at him what he
had written, so that it would feel like an opera
is really happening here. So we're doing those every week,
every two weeks, and at some point it came up, well, Gosh,
(29:54):
Joni heard that they're doing Joni Mitchell heard that you're
doing this and wish there that she could see it.
But you know, it's hard for her to leave the
house with blah blah blah. And I don't know whose
idea it was. I feel like it was her assistance.
So why don't we have the rehearsal at at Jonie's house?
So we did. We took us role in the opera,
(30:16):
and I mean she wanted to hear it when was
working on and thought it was cool. So she opened
her home to us. So we brought a piano player
and about five singers and a small little orchestra, probably
eight players, and we crammed into her music room and
she sat next to Wayne and I sat next to Wayne,
and Frank Gary, who's working on the set, who will
(30:37):
be making the sets, also came over. And it was
it was just a surreal moment in time that I
actually forgot about until you just said it, because it
was so surreal. It didn't seem like a part of
this plane, you know, because those I would say, those
are two of my favorite creators of all time, you know,
(30:59):
And yeah, a lot can be said about the moment. Partially,
it was surreal because I was so um dissatisfied with
the libretto at that particular moment, I was just cringing
that like the master of words was there hearing my
like unfinished words. It's so ridiculous, Um, but yeah, I was.
(31:21):
I was biting my nails. You know for sure. The
whole time was that the first time you'd met her? No,
I met a few times before, but I didn't stick,
you know, yeah, because I was just drooling and you know,
so this time not forming sentence. I was still dreaming,
drooling and forming sentences. But she said she liked my
my life force suit and that as life force it does,
(31:44):
and that really looked at my spirits. Yeah, that did
you design that? Of course? Yeah. I wanted to, um,
stay in touch with the Yeah, the focal point of
my work. I'm seeking ways to translate the Pope. I'm
(32:08):
seeking ways to bring us into resonance with our unique
and abundant life force energy. And I also wanted a
break from worrying about what to wear at events or
just in the street or anywhere. And I knew that
it was going to be a year of hard work,
so I made a work suit for myself. I just
(32:29):
said so that's all you wear. Yeah, that's all I wear.
How many of those do you have? Eleven twelve? You're
like a superhero. You just get in the constant every day.
That's the that's the goal. That's the goal. Be a superhero. Yeah. Yeah,
my version of it be a super me. You know. Um,
so what did you? I'm interested? What did Jone? I've
(32:50):
never met Johnny Mitchell? Oh you will, I would love to. Yeah,
we're both Canadian after all. Uh huh? Facts? What did
she say to you when when she heard what you
were doing? Mom? I don't remember. She said all kinds
of things. It was it was out of body. It
was out of body. But later I did play some
jam sessions that I got to play bass for her,
(33:12):
and I got to play an arrangement for her of
the Wolf that lives in Lindsay and she dug that,
so did she? Was she singing when you were playing? No,
I just perform. Yeah, when I played for her when
she was sinking. I mean it's like living room, like
a session like this. You know, she invites over musicians
(33:32):
and we play the song she wants to sing, and
people play songs that she wants to hear. Or songs
that they are working on. Like, so what you talked
about playing with with her? Be Hancock, What what's it
like playing with Joni Mitchell. Well, it's the deepest listening
you've ever done in your life. She's the deepest listening
(33:55):
ever because it's not about like, oh, I'm gonna play
with Jonie. I. I'm listening for what she's doing in
that moment and where her voice is going, and I
want to offer the the tones, the rhythms that make
(34:16):
it feel good for her to sing at that moment.
You know, how did it go? It was perfect? It's perfect.
She sang lever Man and a couple of other tunes,
had the old song lever Man. Yeah, okay, yeah, she
loves you know, she loves classics standing. She had trouble
(34:37):
for a long time finding bass player. She always sad
bass players didn't understand her music. M because you did,
I don't know, I don't know, but hm, that's interesting.
It did okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be back with
the more Bruce's conversation with Esperanza Spalding after a quick
break back, but before we hear the rest of Bruce's
(35:01):
interview with Esperanza Let's listen to a track offer album,
Emily's Devolution, which we'll talk a bit more about in
a second. First, here's the song change Us. You said
you weren't that you weren't the prodigy, and you weren't
even now you describe yourself as not you don't feel
like you're fully a part of the kind of jazz
(35:22):
world you're not. But it's it's. Um, I was just
gonna say, you went to Berkeley, which is like the
m I T of jazz. Oh god, it's not bless
it's heart. It's it's an incredible convening space for anybody
(35:45):
passionate about pursuing a career music. It is it truly, truly, truly,
truly is. But yeah, it's it's like those terms that
nomenclates or of what the music is. I think that
the term refers to a very specific kind of devotion.
(36:09):
So what I'm saying, I'm not a quote unquot jazz musician.
It's just out of respect for for that modality of devotion.
I'm devoted to making and to creating, and that's that's
its own thing. It's just it's okay with me that
I'm that I'm not, you know, an emissary of that
(36:30):
devotional practice. And and I think it's something also about
wanting to get out from under the signifier of being
a jazz musician, because I feel like in some ways
I use that or it was used to promote me
as a creator. And now, out of respect for what
(36:51):
the devotional practice is, I want to I want to
make sure that it were clear about what's what you know? Okay,
But because you, I mean, you do a lot of
different kinds of music. I mean re listening to Emily,
which was your album before this one, I think, well,
the album before this one you can't get because it
(37:15):
was about that. Yeah, but Emily was like a really
that was a really heavy I wish our co host
Rick Rubin was here because he's an old heavy metal guy.
He would like guitar solos. But what were you listening
to when you did that album? Damn? I was listening
to Hm I a lot of David Bowie, a lot
(37:38):
of Jimi Hendrix. Um Cream, not a lot of cream,
but listening to Cream a little bit. I had seen
that documentary about Ginger Baker Um and you worked with
Tony Visconti, who produced a lot of Bowie, a lot
of t Rex, Yeah, got a lot of that good
vibe in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like sonically the world
(38:06):
that Emily needed to do. What she came to do
had those elements that you described. It was loud, and
it generated movement, and it was about a power trio
and it was about an expression of power and breaking
out of whatever had been practiced and whatever had become familiar,
whatever had become fixed identity. So that's what Emily needed
(38:31):
to burst into existence. And Emily was a real character,
did you It's the lava of myself. It was the
metal character of me. It was also maybe more than
your other work about the songs themselves. You've written a
lot of songs, but we tend to think of jazz
as kind of a flow, true, and this was more
(38:53):
like a song like change us. Oh my gosh, that's right.
There's no there's no reason that wouldn't be a top
forty hit. I know that's Did you want it to
be a top forty hit? I mean I didn't. I
didn't want it to not be a top forty hit.
But um, that hasn't hmm, I mean damn. I asked
(39:21):
Emily what she wanted to do, and those are the
songs that came out. And I didn't ask too many questions,
you know, there wasn't a lot of well what does
what does it? What should the influences be in this?
Like what do we want to happen with this song?
It was just like, here's the instruction manual from Emily,
let's build it and see what we get and we'll
(39:41):
morph it from there. You like the instruction manuals. I
do like the instruction manuals. I trust that because you
also did an album where you said, he was on
Facebook Live, We're going to do it in seventy seven hours, yeah,
and you did the whole thing yeah, and everybody could watch. Well,
that offering performance was the performance of the act of creation.
(40:03):
So how do you make an album of creation? They
make an album of the creation process. That was the
way that we figured out that we could capture or
share my favorite part of making things, which is that
moment where you get the hit, you think of the thing,
and then you forge it. That process of forging it
(40:24):
into the thing was the focal point of that project
as an act of improvisation. Actually, it's like a I
quote weighing a lot. One of my favorite quotes as
he says, composition is improvisation slowed down, and improvisation is
composition sped up. And that's what that project was. Have
you gone back to watch that after you've done? Thank you? No? No, No,
(40:49):
I haven't. Why not, Well, it's it already happened, you know,
it's like it already. It was a it was a
thing that was all in a moment. It's like a
kiss or a or a dance on a bridge that
you didn't expect with a stranger. It happened, and the
magic of it was that it was happening in real time,
and then it wasn't going to happen again, and that
(41:11):
everybody with us was with us in that moment, at
that particular spot on the continuum of eternity. So yeah,
I don't, I don't. I don't have any need to
go back and look at it. What I compared to
when I was watching clips of it was let it be,
which is that's what the Beatles tried to do. They
(41:32):
tried to show people how they were making an album.
Oh cool. That's why I'm wondering if you'd sort of
learned something about how you made music if you did
that well. Part of the I guess impetus for opening
up that process was to share the the ugly moments
(41:56):
and the scary moments, and the risk and the yeah,
the imperfections that go into making anything beautiful. So to
let it be seen that most of the process of
making the song was working with something that didn't really work,
but you can hear how a seed of that then
(42:19):
led to what it became. And I felt like that
was something worth sharing in a moment where so much
of what we interface with is polished and complete and
kind of seems like it just like both dropped down
glistening from the heavens. I was excited to share who
I actually am, who we all actually are as creators,
(42:44):
that that's most of who we are. The majority of
what makes us performers and artists and creators is that process.
The finished thing is only like the last one hundredth
of the whole being, you know, But most artists they
want to protected other nine nine. They don't want that
out because that's the ugly part. So why do you
(43:04):
want that out? I like that part. I wanted to
celebrate that part, and you know, that's my element also
the same way that performers get on stage and show
their best stuff. They show like the best that they
have to give to me. Me creating is my best stuff.
That's why I wanted to share that as the performance,
(43:26):
you know, which is kind of a jazz idea. I mean,
probably more than more than pop. When did the singing
start for you? I'm I'm you know, I was just thinking.
I was like, is that really matter? I mean, probably
eight or nine or ten. I feel like maybe we
(43:50):
could talk about I don't know what's what's brewing now.
I mean sinking started when I was out in the world,
probably fifteen. And I feel like this particular moment in
(44:18):
my life as a creator, I'm less interested in, like
the origin, and I'm more interested in now as an
origin point, you know. Okay, well let me reframe it.
I'm interested in I'm interested in what's happened because I
(44:38):
went back and read some early reviews and they'd say, oh,
her slender voice as she sings along, And then you
listen to these albums and you're like, no, that's like
a powerhouse. Okay, I don't really think about my voice.
I have to confess it's um, I really I practice,
(45:02):
you know. I try to sing to build. I studied
to sit to build capacity and different timbres and all that.
But do you sing to compose? I do sing to compose.
So you're working on this opera, Oh, yes, thank you,
(45:22):
segu Are you singing those parts? Are you? I will
sing in some capacity in this operation? No, I don't
mean in the final I don't mean in the final product.
I mean when you're working on it. Are you? Are
you singing in your head? Are you singing out loud?
Sometimes this process of igan opera is upside down inside
(45:45):
out from how operas are usually mate. Because it took
me so long to get the liberto written that Wayne
already wrote all the music. So now we're reckoning with
this incredible body of work, which is the music that
he wrote sort of in these three acts already, and
drawing story and language out from that. So in that case,
(46:11):
sometimes I sing, but I'm actually trying to hear what
an operatic voice would do with some of these lines.
And there's a lot of speaking because some of the passages,
the music functions as the environment and they're having a
conversation recitative it's called, or sometimes just spoken through thinking
(46:35):
about or further unpackaging that invitation to write what you
wish for the opera seeks to interrupt the repetition of
the same story being played out that's played out in
(46:57):
this original myth. And I'm looking for a way that
as a writer, I can even interrupt the way that
the endings are usually created. Um, what's the colemanth of Ifagenia?
So she's the one who gets her throat slit. Well,
she's sacrificed so that the winds will return, and that
(47:18):
Agamemnon and his brother and the fleet they've assembled to
go recapture Helen can sail across the ocean to troy Um.
And so it's the story before the Trojan horse story
that we all know. Um. And by this process of
making the opera has unlocked a question about who gets
(47:41):
to tell the story, even me as a as a
woman in the twenty first century, and it's a time
when voices that have often been in the background now
get to come up and and direct new narratives, new
speculative narratives. We get to bring to the to the
public arena, our stories that have been silenced for so long,
even in the space I'm asking the question, how do
(48:03):
we how do I how do we? How do I
break the cycle of the tyranny of the individual voice
of the storyteller? And I wonder what becomes possible in
the telling of this story when figures, people, characters who
are often scripted into storytelling opera singers or musicians or actors.
(48:26):
What becomes possible when their voice is activated in the
actual design of the story, in the telling of the story.
That is really really challenging to do. It's beyond my
capacity right now, but that's that's what we're reaching for.
Who's telling the story now? Well, I am I mean
(48:47):
and Euripides told it, and it's it's part of the odyssey,
and it was surely a myth that had been passed
on for generations before it got written down. But I am,
I am really curious right now what happens when the
ending isn't prescribed and instead of barreling towards what we've
(49:12):
been told must happen, we say, no, what happens if
we leave space for an unknown ending to emerge from us?
I guess co creating in real time so that the
sort that is the jazz Ethos isn't it. We're going
to substitute chords, We're going to change it well, and
(49:32):
all of those are just methods for approaching life in
real time and improvising in response to what's actually happening.
You know. It's not about like, oh, I'm going to
change the chord because I'm a jazz musician. It's about
while I have I have access to enough material that
I can respond to what's actually happening from a large
(49:56):
batch of possibility. I'm not I'm not fixed by what
I've practiced. I'm not fixed by what I've learned is
supposed to happen next. Oh that's it. Yeah, I'm not.
I am not limited to what I've learned is supposed
to happen next. That's the key to how how I
want to break open the ending of this opera. Yes, right,
(50:21):
I'm glad we're talking about this. That seems like a
perfect place to stop. Yeah, yeah, amazing. All right, Well,
thank you so much. Thanks es Bronze Spaulding for taking
Tom away from cracking the story structure of our upcoming
opera to talk with Bruce. You can hear all of
our favorite Es Bronze is Spaulding songs by checking out
(50:42):
the playlist for this episode at broken record podcast dot com.
Broken Record is producing help from Jason Gambrel, Mia Lobelle,
and Leah Rose for pushing industries our theme music spect
Kenny Beats, I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.
Pushkin. When Esperanza Spalding won Best New Artist at the
Grammys in twenty eleven, she made headlines for two reasons.
One she was the first ever jazz musician to win
the award, and two she stole Best New Artist from
Justin Bieber. The believers are still pissed. Since that first
(00:28):
big win, Esperanza has won three more Grammys and released
seven studio albums, including twenty seventeen's Exposure, which was conceived, written,
and recorded entirely in seventy seven hours on Facebook Live.
In twenty eighteen, to released twelve Little Spells. It was
inspired by the Japanese healing art ray Ki, with each
song composed as a spell for a specific part of
(00:50):
the body. Looking at her body of work and how
she's evolved from a young, prodigious stand up bass player
and jazz composer to an experimental, multimedia conceptual artist, it's
easy to see why Esperanza Spalding sees herself as more
than a jazz musician, but her improvisational approach to turning
abstract ideas into emotionally moving pieces of music pretty much
(01:12):
makes her the personification of jazz, whether she likes it
or not this is broken record liner notes for the
digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Esperanza sat with Bruce Heilom
and Brooklyn to talk about the instinctual way she makes music,
(01:33):
jamming with Joni Mitchell, and the opera she's writing with
the legendary Wayne Shorter that's set to be released next year. Wow,
this voice is really beautiful. It's got a good vibe
and it's huge. This is actually reminding me how much
I love to be in the studio. It's been about
a year, and I think that means it's time to
go back soon. You haven't been in a studio in
(01:55):
a year, and was for that. That was for twelve
Little Spells, for the four Bonus Spells. It's actually sixteen
Little Spells now because because of some of the finagling
that one must do when you're dancing through the music industry,
I wanted twelve and for there to be a second
(02:18):
wave and reason to talk about the project again. I
was asked and encouraged right for more songs, because apparently
I'm I've yet to grow into the awareness of what
it is to generate music as commodity. My first instinct
is already to figure out a way to just release
(02:38):
it big and around and wide. Um. So I wanted
to release the twelve Little Spells one every day at
twelve twelve leading up to my birthday, and I wanted
to just blast them out because I wanted the the
effect of the Spells to reach as many people as possible. Um.
(02:59):
But that's it. It's hard to capitalize on that approach.
So in collaboration with the label, we came up with
the idea, well, let's make former bonus Spells and then
there's a reason to go get the record. So now
we should explain twelve Little Spells, which was your last
full album. Yeah, they were twelve songs now sixteen, but
(03:21):
they were based on different parts of the body. Did
the concept come first for that or did the songs
come first? It came as a hit, almost like an
instruction manual. I can remember I was in transit. I
don't remember from where to where, but I know that
by the time I got home to my apartment, I
(03:42):
had written out the outline of the whole project that
it was twelve Little Spells and the title and what
the title was saying, which was an announcement of what
this work is as an interim piece before the next
big project. So the titles twelve little spells to tide
you over to the next full thing. Touch in my, Touch,
in mine, the longing deep down. You have to dance now, no,
(04:05):
all limbs are readying to rise, dancing the animal with others.
And it was a it's a sort of poem explanation
of what this project is until the next project, which
is about dancing and movement and dancing that the wild, untethered,
free forms of dance with structured presentation. Um. Yeah. So
(04:28):
by the time I got home, here were the song titles,
here were their effects on the body, and I had
my instruction manual. And then I spent a month and
some change just assembling that structure, assembling that entity from
the instruction manual. So you wrote all that on the subway, No,
I wrote it all in the castle in Italy. Okay,
(04:50):
but m yeah, that was amazing. That was amazing. Every
morning I would be, um, you know, go for where
will you pick up your espresso in the morning if
you so desired? And they had me in the converted
pig pen because I didn't want to be in the cask,
because I figured it would be extremely haunted. So I
would go get my espresso and then walk around the
(05:12):
priffrey of the castle back towards my converted pig pen,
which is on another, you know, part of the grounds,
and I would pass Azar Nafisi almost every day, who
was working on her book, And just that process of witnessing,
you know, a master craftsman sitting and witnessing the development
of their piece page by page, you know, was the fuel,
(05:34):
part of the fuel I think for making this happen,
because you know, the creative process is abstract. It feels
sometimes like you're doing nothing. So it was so encouraging
and affirming to witness another person in that practice, accumulating
that body that they came to work on. Now there's
always the descriptions of you you were prodigy, or this
you were that. I would like to lean into the
(05:56):
microphone now and spell those myths that I was a
prodigy or anything like that. I wasn't a prodigy. I am.
I have a talent in music, and I found my
way early on. But I have seen prodigies, and I
know prodigies, and it's a thing. It's like it's like
(06:18):
a subset of the species, you know, and I just
I partly want to dispel that myth because I think
it it's misleading. You know, it makes it seem like
maybe there's something special or something different fundamentally about you know,
my makeup as an as an entity, as a humanoid,
(06:40):
and it's not true. You know, there are some folks
who are and they're exceedingly rare, and then there are
other folks who just figured out a way to get
a lot of practice in early on and it accumulates
and then you can do things that other ten year
olds can't do. But it's best of it because I
(07:01):
was a prodigy. It's because I I played a lot.
You know, I practice a lot. Well is that good?
Because you know prodigies and you know, being a prodigy
often is it's maladaptive. They don't. It's if you're great
at something when you're five, often you're doing the same
thing at thirty five. And people are you know, there's
always those those great classical musicians who are you know,
(07:24):
who are described as the fifty year old child prodigy.
You know, they can't kind of get past what they
did at a a certain age, right. And I the part
that I resonate with about that quote unquote prodigy part
is simply the part where nobody can explain why you
(07:45):
can do what you can do, you know, And I
think part of what sets a prodigy apart is that
for the same amount of time that their friend in
the music school puts in, this kid just gets more done. Somehow, somehow,
there's a to do more for reasons that nobody can explain.
And at a certain point, when you want to expand
(08:06):
past what it is you've become good at, but you
don't remember why you can do what you do, that
is intimidating and stressful it can be. And I can't
appreciate why you wouldn't you wouldn't lean into that territory.
And there are some aspects about you know, my practice
that I it's like abousing before the divination. There are
(08:27):
some aspects that I don't know. I don't know how
that happens or how it works. But when I try
to apply that to like a new medium, let's say,
like writing an opera doesn't work, then you discover like, hmm, okay,
there's a process here, there's a there's a skill set
that must be developed to yield the same results over here.
As I'm able to yield over there without having necessarily
(08:49):
mastered that skill set, you know, So just saying I
have compassion for the fifty year old child prodigies out there.
What was your first experience of music then? What do
you remember? Well, it would be my mother singing in
the house and making up little songs about whatever was
(09:16):
happening in the moment. So she she had this one.
You don't need to cry because your mama is by
your mama who love you and will never never leave you.
You don't need to cry because your mama is by
you know. I don't know where that comes from, but she,
she would always have this sort of soundtrack happening to life.
(09:37):
There was a wake up song, there was a prepping
the meal song. And that is my first memory of music.
My first memory of music out there was hearing your
mom on my stage's neighborhood. Like I've said that so
many times in my life, but it was and hearing
your hearing your mom, hearing the box cello suite. I
(10:00):
don't know if it was aomara, was the box teller sueeze,
but by the way, he was a vehicle and on
mister Rodgers neighborhood, mister Rodgers neighbor which also the interesting
piece about that episode is after Yoma performed, they went
(10:21):
to make Believe Land, and in that episode, the next
thing that happened is Lady Amberlin was dressed as an
upright bass and the other woman character was playing an
upright bass. And I don't have a conscious memory of
(10:42):
seeing that. But that, again, was like the download that
all came at once, and then it's a humbling reckoning
of like, oh, I'm again just I'm just following the
programming that I didn't even realize I received, you know,
a five. So now was that just a memory or
on mister Rodgers Neighborhood that actually happened. I only know
(11:04):
that that happened because I've seen it since I don't
have a conscious memory of seeing that in the episode.
What I remember is hearing I didn't know it was
about tells at the time. I can remember the prickling
in the this um almost like pain, you know, such
a deep sensation of attraction to something that I felt
(11:24):
towards the music that Yoma was playing. No conscious memory
of seeing the basses. But later when I saw the episode,
I went, oh damn, I'm just I've just following the instructions.
You know that all came at the same time. Um,
those are my first memories of music. Well, you can
do worse than following, mister rogers omen I agree. I
think you did well. And then your first instrument was what, well,
(11:47):
it would have been violent. They didn't have any um,
half sized or quarter sized cellos at the program that
I first enter music through, so it was fortunately or
unfortunately violin and that yeah, unfortunately you didn't like the violin.
(12:09):
I didn't really like the violet. I like other people
playing the violin, but yeah, I was seeking that sound.
I was seeking what I heard. I wanted the cello,
and thank god, and then I just get past the
tell I want right up to the next floor, up
to the base. And then when did the bass start?
You know, I don't know if the bass has started yet.
(12:30):
It's such a immense territory and for all the technical
facility one can accumulate early on again serves a very
profound function in music. And I I think that the
older one gets, the more one matures, the better they
(12:56):
are at actually being a bass player. So I don't know,
I don't know if bass has begun yeah, when you
started playing. How much were you practicing? I don't remember really,
probably a lot, I don't. I don't remember those early days.
I just remember um playing by ear and suddenly hearing
(13:20):
this music that I was told was jazz and having
a very deep, again visceral reaction to whatever they were doing,
you know, having no understanding of what it was or
how it worked. Um, yeah, are you still that kind
of instinctual player or because this is what scares people
(13:42):
about jazz. It's incredibly complicated. It seems like endless scales
is all that theory? Do you know all that stuff?
You know some? Yeah? Yeah, and it never ends because
the in not because I don't feel authorized to speak
on behalf of the genre in anyway, because I would
(14:06):
say I'm a jazz singer when I need to be,
and I can play bass for the jazz musicians, but
the center piece, like the center of what it is
I do isn't really jazz because of that practice and
devotion that is required. You don't think you have it,
(14:29):
not in that way, not in that way as an instrumentalist,
which is fine. It's cool because I can still support
the instrumentalists who are in that devotional, devotional practice. But
that's how you started. You were you were known as
a jazz bassis, absolute best new artist I think, right right? Yeah,
And still I wonder what the parallel isn't writing? It's
(14:52):
like you can support, you can be a part of
something without actually being a devotee of that craft. Well,
most writing is all you mean writing music or writing,
I mean writing word. So what do you know? Because
if I go on YouTube, I see you playing with
(15:13):
Herbie Hancock and check Korea. Yeah, what are they? What
are you giving them? Then there's got to be more
technically sophisticated players are at least more theoretically sophisticated players
than you. You're doing this by instinct. What do they
get when I asked you to come and play with me?
What what am I getting? You're getting listening and lightspeed
(15:40):
response and some a dance floor for your dance. I'm
giving you a moving dance floor. And I have studied
some of the theory, just to say partially, I like
to rearticulate this because for any young aspiring instrumentalist listening,
(16:06):
I want to make sure that I'm speaking that truth
that to be a quote unquote jazz musician like, don't
listen to me. Listen to Scott Colly or you know,
Ben Williams, Christian McBride or Linda o or players who
if you if you want to have a queue into
(16:26):
the expression of the jazz pedagogy, listen to those bass players.
I'm doing something that's valuable and beautiful in works and supports,
but it's not really coming from that kind of devotional space.
It's very intuitive and very much in the presence, very
much something that evolves in relationship with players. You know, So, yes,
I can play with her, but I can play with
(16:48):
chick because I'm I'm becoming what is needed in that
moment with my technical facility to you know, come as
my voice, as my listening as my voice. It's almost
like an active listening with players like that. So are they?
Are they because you're a band leader as well. When
(17:08):
you're playing with players like that, are they kind of
setting the tone and then you're responding? Is it more
call response with them? Yeah, it's it's more like, well
with somebody like you know, Herbie Hancock or Jerry Allen.
They want to have the conversation that can only happen
with you in the room. It's not like, Okay, I
(17:30):
hear these ten songs, you happen to be the one here,
so yeah, come get in on this and make this
work for me. Especially with Herbie, especially with Jerry, it's
more like, oh, who are you? What do we sound
like together? And in that space it might kind of
be an advantage not be too tethered to a technical
or historical or pedagogical approach to making the music, because
(17:52):
then you're free to discover what's actually happening in real time,
which might not sound like anything that that player did before.
It's going to have their character ristic. But that is
my superpower, you know, of being president, going like whoa
what what is this? Actually? Right now? Let's make it
and it won't probably happen again. And that was that,
You know, do you have to do You have to
(18:15):
make eye contact with a player. To do that, you
have to see what he's doing just here? Really, could
you do it blindfolded? Yeah? Of course really? Yeah, of course.
I don't look. I don't look at the instrument I
want to play. No, I don't mean your instrument. I
mean I mean I mean the combination of like if
if you're playing with you know Wayne Shorter here be
hancocked there. Yeah, that's a that's a great day. I
(18:37):
wish that would happen more. But you know, string quartets,
the players kind of have to see each other, they
have to see the cues. I'm wondering how important is
that in when you're playing in a jazz combo. Well,
I'm thinking of I'm thinking of Wayne's quartet. They are
(18:58):
very much connected with each other, looking at each other.
But I am positive they could do everything they do
blindfolded because they're they're co composing a scene. You know,
It's like, I'm sure actors could have a perfectly potent
and coherent improvised scene blindfolded because you're you're responding to
(19:24):
the reality of emotional response. You're responding to what comes
at you, and eventually a momentum of the scene is
generated and that is propelling you forward as much as
you're creating it as you go. You know, that mode
of performance, co composition improvisation is like that. Okay, next
time you're with Herbie Hancock, I want you to blindfold
(19:46):
yourself and see see how it comes. I don't I
wouldn't never ask him to do that, but I'll think
I'll just I'll hold it in the space and see
what happens if I don't look. I mean, I remember
dancing tango a little bit when I was a teammate,
and you know, there's certain fundamentals that you learn, and
it's an improvisational dance form, right Obviously, when you're dancing
(20:10):
with a phenomenal dancer, everything just kind of works, you know.
And I remember that experience of being very inexperienced and
getting on the dance floor and just be like, oh damn,
I can do I'm good. Shoot everything. I'm twisting and
turning and kicking all kinds of stuff, and then you
go dance with the next partner and it's like fuck.
You know, it's like a fumble, looks like a like
(20:32):
a civil ware drawer without a divider, you know. So
there's also something to be said for the potency of
the master, you know that partially just by playing with
somebody like that, the the immensity of their musicianship and
ability to make everything work kind of heightens your own
(20:53):
capacity and shows what is possible. We'll be back with
more from Esperanza Spalding after the break. We're back with
more from Esperanza Spalding. What's it like working with Wayne Shorter?
You talked about his writing before, Ye, what's it like
(21:13):
playing with him? We've actually only played a few times,
and it felt like visiting another planet. It truly felt
like we've been living on one musical planet your whole life,
seeing different lands and territories and cities and towns and
(21:34):
ruralities and municipalities, and then you step onto what you
think is just another land. You know, music starts, Okay,
here we are, and all of a sudden you recognize, like, no,
all of this is different. All of this is extraterrestrial,
(21:56):
all of this is expansive. All of this is just
more and different and shaped like the Earth. And maybe
the gravity is similar, but it's not. He is so
incredibly adept at connecting seemingly disparit ideas in a room,
(22:22):
in a conversation, and musically that is, it's like it
feels like you have to start listening at light speed
to be able to connect what just came over there
with what's happening over there. That is nebulous. I apologize
it's hard to describe it, but is it scary playing
(22:44):
with someone like that? Yeah? Sure, yeah, very much. So, Yeah,
And why is it scary? Why is it scary? What
does scary? I mean in that context? Is it scary?
It's scary in a sense of oh damn, can I
can I hang? Can I help? Can I woo? Can
(23:06):
I feel free? What is that of the most that
I can bring into the space? Will it have a place?
Will it work? You know? You know, it's like sitting
at a table and a conversations already happening, and you're like,
I don't know what anybody here is talking about, but
I'm being asked to come and speak. So it's something
(23:28):
about having the trust that your life is enough, that
what you've lived endows you with insight and perspective and presence,
and that the other people at the table actually want
to talk with you. So it's not about I'm able
to refer to the things that you all have studied
and know. It's something about having the confidence that at
(23:49):
any point in time we can find like a common
space to converse. Do you always find do you always
feel confident when you're playing with someone like that you
can find it? You ever feel nervous, Like this guy's
talk talking about something I can't really of course we
don't we all. I mean hopefully that's how you know
you're expanding and having new tastes and new experiences. You know.
(24:12):
It's not always feel equipped like I'm gonna come in
and slay. I don't mean that, but are there times
you're playing with someone I'm gonna use Wayne Shorter and
you just feel like, man, I'm just disappointing here. I'm
not contributing. No, Well, listening is contributing. I mean, that's
so much of the gift of somebody who's so full,
like a Wayne Shorter, just hanging out with him at
(24:34):
the house. I mean just just listening is becomes dialogue,
you know, and becomes dynamic, um, because we we need
to be heard too, you know. For all that poetry
and wisdom and philosophy, philosophical playmaking that one can do,
(24:54):
it's not fun when you're just by yourself in the house, right.
I think he's really gonna and a musing himself. But
um yeah, that's that's valuable. That's what I mean by
being the moving dance floor. It is. It's valuable. It's valuable. Um.
So a very different artist did you like and I'd
(25:15):
like to know more about her influence is Joni Mitchell. Oh, Now,
Joni Mitchell is interesting to me because she has she
seems to have two audiences. Everybody likes everybody knows Big
Yellow Taxi and both sides now and people love her
and revere for being part of a generation. But jazz
people really like her. What is it you're hearing in her?
(25:36):
What inspires you? I mean, jazz people like creative seeking music.
You know, in general, all the jazz people that I
know don't just listen to jazz music. They we they
(25:57):
listen to move that seems to be reching and finding
new combinations of the sounds that we're all working with
out here essentially, So what is it about her music
that what are you hearing there? I think if I
(26:20):
actually try to articulate it, it's going to be a lie.
Because beyond the obvious that points that we all are
drawn to, like the poetic imagery and the unexpected way
that she illuminates a scene and brings us into a
place in a space, and an emotional understanding of a
(26:43):
person or a relationship, there's just some there's something magical
and magnetic which doesn't tell you anything, but I the
way where I feel the draw. I can't honestly articulate. Um.
(27:04):
I think part of it is the attraction to somebody
showing possibility that's so far beyond anything that's been revealed
in that genre or mode of playing before, you know,
as a quote unquote folk musician or as a poetter,
as a lyricist. It's like, you know, watching I can't
(27:32):
explain it. I should say, when I even said her name,
you sort of, yeah, put your hand up to your
heart like you're slightly stricken. And that's the that's the
that's the Yeah, that's the mystery, you know, that's the mystery.
You can hear strands of the sort of thing she
does in I think particularly your the Emily album. Okay, cool,
(27:55):
that's when I discover her music. Was that right? Okay?
Have you ever met her? Yeah? For sure. I jammed
at her house a few times, Okay this year last year.
Telling that story now, well, I I say, I very
surreal experience. Actually back up, tell us that story. How
(28:18):
you how you ended up there? Who was there? Well,
the first time that I went to her house, I
went to her house because um we okay, I had
to back up a step further. Last year, I moved
to la for seven months to be near Wayne and
(28:44):
to be on the ground moving forward the development this opera,
because I felt like it had gotten stagnant somehow, you know,
just the logistics of work, shopping in and getting it
off of the page and out of the speculative into
the real, and I thought I need to just go there.
You know, Wayne was having some really intense health issues,
(29:05):
and I wanted him to feel like this thing is
really happening, like we're doing this, we're doing this. So
that turned into some very inventive approaches to making workshops happen,
Orchestral workshops happened, scene workshops happen. At a time when
he couldn't physically write, he was suffering from a metabolic tremor,
(29:31):
and so we had to figure out a way to
get what he had written up into an orchestra. And
I thought that the most invigorating thing for him would
be to actually feel coming back at him what he
had written, so that it would feel like an opera
is really happening here. So we're doing those every week,
every two weeks, and at some point it came up, well, Gosh,
(29:54):
Joni heard that they're doing Joni Mitchell heard that you're
doing this and wish there that she could see it.
But you know, it's hard for her to leave the
house with blah blah blah. And I don't know whose
idea it was. I feel like it was her assistance.
So why don't we have the rehearsal at at Jonie's house?
So we did. We took us role in the opera,
(30:16):
and I mean she wanted to hear it when was
working on and thought it was cool. So she opened
her home to us. So we brought a piano player
and about five singers and a small little orchestra, probably
eight players, and we crammed into her music room and
she sat next to Wayne and I sat next to Wayne,
and Frank Gary, who's working on the set, who will
(30:37):
be making the sets, also came over. And it was
it was just a surreal moment in time that I
actually forgot about until you just said it, because it
was so surreal. It didn't seem like a part of
this plane, you know, because those I would say, those
are two of my favorite creators of all time, you know,
(30:59):
And yeah, a lot can be said about the moment. Partially,
it was surreal because I was so um dissatisfied with
the libretto at that particular moment, I was just cringing
that like the master of words was there hearing my
like unfinished words. It's so ridiculous, Um, but yeah, I was.
(31:21):
I was biting my nails. You know for sure. The
whole time was that the first time you'd met her? No,
I met a few times before, but I didn't stick,
you know, yeah, because I was just drooling and you know,
so this time not forming sentence. I was still dreaming,
drooling and forming sentences. But she said she liked my
my life force suit and that as life force it does,
(31:44):
and that really looked at my spirits. Yeah, that did
you design that? Of course? Yeah. I wanted to, um,
stay in touch with the Yeah, the focal point of
my work. I'm seeking ways to translate the Pope. I'm
(32:08):
seeking ways to bring us into resonance with our unique
and abundant life force energy. And I also wanted a
break from worrying about what to wear at events or
just in the street or anywhere. And I knew that
it was going to be a year of hard work,
so I made a work suit for myself. I just
(32:29):
said so that's all you wear. Yeah, that's all I wear.
How many of those do you have? Eleven twelve? You're
like a superhero. You just get in the constant every day.
That's the that's the goal. That's the goal. Be a superhero. Yeah. Yeah,
my version of it be a super me. You know. Um,
so what did you? I'm interested? What did Jone? I've
(32:50):
never met Johnny Mitchell? Oh you will, I would love to. Yeah,
we're both Canadian after all. Uh huh? Facts? What did
she say to you when when she heard what you
were doing? Mom? I don't remember. She said all kinds
of things. It was it was out of body. It
was out of body. But later I did play some
jam sessions that I got to play bass for her,
(33:12):
and I got to play an arrangement for her of
the Wolf that lives in Lindsay and she dug that,
so did she? Was she singing when you were playing? No,
I just perform. Yeah, when I played for her when
she was sinking. I mean it's like living room, like
a session like this. You know, she invites over musicians
(33:32):
and we play the song she wants to sing, and
people play songs that she wants to hear. Or songs
that they are working on. Like, so what you talked
about playing with with her? Be Hancock, What what's it
like playing with Joni Mitchell. Well, it's the deepest listening
you've ever done in your life. She's the deepest listening
(33:55):
ever because it's not about like, oh, I'm gonna play
with Jonie. I. I'm listening for what she's doing in
that moment and where her voice is going, and I
want to offer the the tones, the rhythms that make
(34:16):
it feel good for her to sing at that moment.
You know, how did it go? It was perfect? It's perfect.
She sang lever Man and a couple of other tunes,
had the old song lever Man. Yeah, okay, yeah, she
loves you know, she loves classics standing. She had trouble
(34:37):
for a long time finding bass player. She always sad
bass players didn't understand her music. M because you did,
I don't know, I don't know, but hm, that's interesting.
It did okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be back with
the more Bruce's conversation with Esperanza Spalding after a quick
break back, but before we hear the rest of Bruce's
(35:01):
interview with Esperanza Let's listen to a track offer album,
Emily's Devolution, which we'll talk a bit more about in
a second. First, here's the song change Us. You said
you weren't that you weren't the prodigy, and you weren't
even now you describe yourself as not you don't feel
like you're fully a part of the kind of jazz
(35:22):
world you're not. But it's it's. Um, I was just
gonna say, you went to Berkeley, which is like the
m I T of jazz. Oh god, it's not bless
it's heart. It's it's an incredible convening space for anybody
(35:45):
passionate about pursuing a career music. It is it truly, truly, truly,
truly is. But yeah, it's it's like those terms that
nomenclates or of what the music is. I think that
the term refers to a very specific kind of devotion.
(36:09):
So what I'm saying, I'm not a quote unquot jazz musician.
It's just out of respect for for that modality of devotion.
I'm devoted to making and to creating, and that's that's
its own thing. It's just it's okay with me that
I'm that I'm not, you know, an emissary of that
(36:30):
devotional practice. And and I think it's something also about
wanting to get out from under the signifier of being
a jazz musician, because I feel like in some ways
I use that or it was used to promote me
as a creator. And now, out of respect for what
(36:51):
the devotional practice is, I want to I want to
make sure that it were clear about what's what you know? Okay,
But because you, I mean, you do a lot of
different kinds of music. I mean re listening to Emily,
which was your album before this one, I think, well,
the album before this one you can't get because it
(37:15):
was about that. Yeah, but Emily was like a really
that was a really heavy I wish our co host
Rick Rubin was here because he's an old heavy metal guy.
He would like guitar solos. But what were you listening
to when you did that album? Damn? I was listening
to Hm I a lot of David Bowie, a lot
(37:38):
of Jimi Hendrix. Um Cream, not a lot of cream,
but listening to Cream a little bit. I had seen
that documentary about Ginger Baker Um and you worked with
Tony Visconti, who produced a lot of Bowie, a lot
of t Rex, Yeah, got a lot of that good
vibe in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like sonically the world
(38:06):
that Emily needed to do. What she came to do
had those elements that you described. It was loud, and
it generated movement, and it was about a power trio
and it was about an expression of power and breaking
out of whatever had been practiced and whatever had become familiar,
whatever had become fixed identity. So that's what Emily needed
(38:31):
to burst into existence. And Emily was a real character,
did you It's the lava of myself. It was the
metal character of me. It was also maybe more than
your other work about the songs themselves. You've written a
lot of songs, but we tend to think of jazz
as kind of a flow, true, and this was more
(38:53):
like a song like change us. Oh my gosh, that's right.
There's no there's no reason that wouldn't be a top
forty hit. I know that's Did you want it to
be a top forty hit? I mean I didn't. I
didn't want it to not be a top forty hit.
But um, that hasn't hmm, I mean damn. I asked
(39:21):
Emily what she wanted to do, and those are the
songs that came out. And I didn't ask too many questions,
you know, there wasn't a lot of well what does
what does it? What should the influences be in this?
Like what do we want to happen with this song?
It was just like, here's the instruction manual from Emily,
let's build it and see what we get and we'll
(39:41):
morph it from there. You like the instruction manuals. I
do like the instruction manuals. I trust that because you
also did an album where you said, he was on
Facebook Live, We're going to do it in seventy seven hours, yeah,
and you did the whole thing yeah, and everybody could watch. Well,
that offering performance was the performance of the act of creation.
(40:03):
So how do you make an album of creation? They
make an album of the creation process. That was the
way that we figured out that we could capture or
share my favorite part of making things, which is that
moment where you get the hit, you think of the thing,
and then you forge it. That process of forging it
(40:24):
into the thing was the focal point of that project
as an act of improvisation. Actually, it's like a I
quote weighing a lot. One of my favorite quotes as
he says, composition is improvisation slowed down, and improvisation is
composition sped up. And that's what that project was. Have
you gone back to watch that after you've done? Thank you? No? No, No,
(40:49):
I haven't. Why not, Well, it's it already happened, you know,
it's like it already. It was a it was a
thing that was all in a moment. It's like a
kiss or a or a dance on a bridge that
you didn't expect with a stranger. It happened, and the
magic of it was that it was happening in real time,
and then it wasn't going to happen again, and that
(41:11):
everybody with us was with us in that moment, at
that particular spot on the continuum of eternity. So yeah,
I don't, I don't. I don't have any need to
go back and look at it. What I compared to
when I was watching clips of it was let it be,
which is that's what the Beatles tried to do. They
(41:32):
tried to show people how they were making an album.
Oh cool. That's why I'm wondering if you'd sort of
learned something about how you made music if you did
that well. Part of the I guess impetus for opening
up that process was to share the the ugly moments
(41:56):
and the scary moments, and the risk and the yeah,
the imperfections that go into making anything beautiful. So to
let it be seen that most of the process of
making the song was working with something that didn't really work,
but you can hear how a seed of that then
(42:19):
led to what it became. And I felt like that
was something worth sharing in a moment where so much
of what we interface with is polished and complete and
kind of seems like it just like both dropped down
glistening from the heavens. I was excited to share who
I actually am, who we all actually are as creators,
(42:44):
that that's most of who we are. The majority of
what makes us performers and artists and creators is that process.
The finished thing is only like the last one hundredth
of the whole being, you know, But most artists they
want to protected other nine nine. They don't want that
out because that's the ugly part. So why do you
(43:04):
want that out? I like that part. I wanted to
celebrate that part, and you know, that's my element also
the same way that performers get on stage and show
their best stuff. They show like the best that they
have to give to me. Me creating is my best stuff.
That's why I wanted to share that as the performance,
(43:26):
you know, which is kind of a jazz idea. I mean,
probably more than more than pop. When did the singing
start for you? I'm I'm you know, I was just thinking.
I was like, is that really matter? I mean, probably
eight or nine or ten. I feel like maybe we
(43:50):
could talk about I don't know what's what's brewing now.
I mean sinking started when I was out in the world,
probably fifteen. And I feel like this particular moment in
(44:18):
my life as a creator, I'm less interested in, like
the origin, and I'm more interested in now as an
origin point, you know. Okay, well let me reframe it.
I'm interested in I'm interested in what's happened because I
(44:38):
went back and read some early reviews and they'd say, oh,
her slender voice as she sings along, And then you
listen to these albums and you're like, no, that's like
a powerhouse. Okay, I don't really think about my voice.
I have to confess it's um, I really I practice,
(45:02):
you know. I try to sing to build. I studied
to sit to build capacity and different timbres and all that.
But do you sing to compose? I do sing to compose.
So you're working on this opera, Oh, yes, thank you,
(45:22):
segu Are you singing those parts? Are you? I will
sing in some capacity in this operation? No, I don't
mean in the final I don't mean in the final product.
I mean when you're working on it. Are you? Are
you singing in your head? Are you singing out loud?
Sometimes this process of igan opera is upside down inside
(45:45):
out from how operas are usually mate. Because it took
me so long to get the liberto written that Wayne
already wrote all the music. So now we're reckoning with
this incredible body of work, which is the music that
he wrote sort of in these three acts already, and
drawing story and language out from that. So in that case,
(46:11):
sometimes I sing, but I'm actually trying to hear what
an operatic voice would do with some of these lines.
And there's a lot of speaking because some of the passages,
the music functions as the environment and they're having a
conversation recitative it's called, or sometimes just spoken through thinking
(46:35):
about or further unpackaging that invitation to write what you
wish for the opera seeks to interrupt the repetition of
the same story being played out that's played out in
(46:57):
this original myth. And I'm looking for a way that
as a writer, I can even interrupt the way that
the endings are usually created. Um, what's the colemanth of Ifagenia?
So she's the one who gets her throat slit. Well,
she's sacrificed so that the winds will return, and that
(47:18):
Agamemnon and his brother and the fleet they've assembled to
go recapture Helen can sail across the ocean to troy Um.
And so it's the story before the Trojan horse story
that we all know. Um. And by this process of
making the opera has unlocked a question about who gets
(47:41):
to tell the story, even me as a as a
woman in the twenty first century, and it's a time
when voices that have often been in the background now
get to come up and and direct new narratives, new
speculative narratives. We get to bring to the to the
public arena, our stories that have been silenced for so long,
even in the space I'm asking the question, how do
(48:03):
we how do I how do we? How do I
break the cycle of the tyranny of the individual voice
of the storyteller? And I wonder what becomes possible in
the telling of this story when figures, people, characters who
are often scripted into storytelling opera singers or musicians or actors.
(48:26):
What becomes possible when their voice is activated in the
actual design of the story, in the telling of the story.
That is really really challenging to do. It's beyond my
capacity right now, but that's that's what we're reaching for.
Who's telling the story now? Well, I am I mean
(48:47):
and Euripides told it, and it's it's part of the odyssey,
and it was surely a myth that had been passed
on for generations before it got written down. But I am,
I am really curious right now what happens when the
ending isn't prescribed and instead of barreling towards what we've
(49:12):
been told must happen, we say, no, what happens if
we leave space for an unknown ending to emerge from us?
I guess co creating in real time so that the
sort that is the jazz Ethos isn't it. We're going
to substitute chords, We're going to change it well, and
(49:32):
all of those are just methods for approaching life in
real time and improvising in response to what's actually happening.
You know. It's not about like, oh, I'm going to
change the chord because I'm a jazz musician. It's about
while I have I have access to enough material that
I can respond to what's actually happening from a large
(49:56):
batch of possibility. I'm not I'm not fixed by what
I've practiced. I'm not fixed by what I've learned is
supposed to happen next. Oh that's it. Yeah, I'm not.
I am not limited to what I've learned is supposed
to happen next. That's the key to how how I
want to break open the ending of this opera. Yes, right,
(50:21):
I'm glad we're talking about this. That seems like a
perfect place to stop. Yeah, yeah, amazing. All right, Well,
thank you so much. Thanks es Bronze Spaulding for taking
Tom away from cracking the story structure of our upcoming
opera to talk with Bruce. You can hear all of
our favorite Es Bronze is Spaulding songs by checking out
(50:42):
the playlist for this episode at broken record podcast dot com.
Broken Record is producing help from Jason Gambrel, Mia Lobelle,
and Leah Rose for pushing industries our theme music spect
Kenny Beats, I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.
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