Labi Siffre

Since getting his start in the late ‘60s, Labi Siffre has had an unflinching commitment to writing exactly what he feels. The result was a debut album that announced a singular talent: a British singer-songwriter who could move seamlessly from jazz-inflected soul to tender love songs, all while addressing themes of love, identity, and justice that most pop artists wouldn't touch.

Over the next decade, Siffre built a catalog that defied category. Still, his 1972 song "Crying Laughing Loving Lying" became an international success, and his song "Something Inside So Strong"—written years later in response to apartheid—also became a big hit, revealing the true scope of his artistry.

And then there's "I Got The..." from his 1975 album Remember My Song that would quietly become one of the most sampled songs in hip-hop history, most famously by Dr. Dre on Eminem's "My Name Is."

On today's episode, Justin Richmond talks to Labi Siffre about growing up in 1950s London and the music he discovered that set him on his particular artistic path. Labi also talks about how he wants music to enliven him and how much it annoys him when people tell him to chill. And he explains why, after decades in the music industry, he's never regretted choosing honesty over commercial compromise.

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite songs from Labi Siffre HERE.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Since getting his start in the late sixties, Leby
Siffrey has had an unflinching commitment to writing exactly what
he feels. The result was a debut album that announced
a singular talent, a British singer songwriter who can move
seamlessly from jazz inflected soul to tender love songs, all

(00:36):
while addressing themes of love, identity, and justice that most
pop artists wouldn't touch. Over the next decade, Siffrey built
the catalog that defied category. Still, his nineteen seventy two
song Crying, Laughing, Loving, Lying became an international success, and
his song something Inside So Strong, written years later in
response Apartheid, also became a big hit, revealing the true

(00:58):
scope of his artistry. And then there's Igattha from his
nineteen seventy five album Remember My Song that would quietly
become one of the most sampled songs in hip hop history,
famously by doctor dre on Eminem's My Name Is. Yet,
despite his influence, which instead of waning, has actually grown
over generations, Sefrie has remained something of a hidden treasure,

(01:20):
an artist whose integrity and independence kept him just outside
of the mainstream On today's episode, I talked to Labby
Siffree about growing up in fifties London and the music
he discovered that set him on his particular artistic path.
Labby also talks about how he wants music to enliven
him and how much it annoys him when people tell
him to chill, and he explains why, after decades in

(01:40):
the music industry, he's never regretted choosing honesty over commercial compromise.
This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my
conversation with Labby Siffrey Man. So I came to your

(02:03):
music through hip hop. I was a big hip hop
fan growing up and going looking for samples. I discovered
your music a handful of times across a few different
using a few different songs. And over the years, some
of those songs that have discovered you through have kind

(02:24):
of faded away in my in my consciousness, and and
and what sort of been left is your your actual
real catalog of songs that just every year grow in
terms of how much I love them and how much
I listened to them. And so it was a really
bizarre way to discover a songwriter as delicate as as

(02:48):
as your as your songwriting could be in a in
a in a songwriting, sometimes it's as fierce in terms
of social criticism as your songwriting can be. But uh,
I'm really glad that I discovered you about twenty years ago,
and and and and so glad that we're able to
speak because, like I said, your music is it means
a lot. I gotta say, though the British music scene

(03:14):
confuses me. It seems like what confuses me is it
seems like there were a bunch of different scenes. But
I'm not sure that there was like a I just
I'm not so familiar with it, I guess, being from
the States. And so I was curious when you were
growing up playing music before just before you got your

(03:35):
contract to do your first album, your self titled album,
where were you and what was going on musically?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Uh? Well, Christmas nineteen sixty nine, Uh, I was in
Amsterdam trying to see if I could well, just to
try and see what would happen if I went to
a different country, and I was one of the gigs

(04:07):
I did was at the parodies. Uh I made I
make of friends with a Czech classical guitarist and his lady.
He and I we did the We did the Paradiso,
which was a kind of a psychedelic club, and he
was on stage and he played an excellent classical guitarist

(04:30):
and there was, you know, kind of smashing your applause.
Then I did my set and it was huge cheers
and a huge amount of things. And I came off
the stage and I said to him, what was that
all about? He said, well, they were they were screening
Porner behind you and h and and about. Well, like

(04:59):
I said, that was in That was in December sixty nine,
and that the and towards the end of that I
got a call saying somebody wants to offer you a
publishing deal and a record deal. I had a band
called Safari up till that moment, and I was on
electric guitar, my old Harmony, and for some reason I

(05:20):
decided the amp was getting between me and the guitar,
and I wanted the Turvius to be one just me
and the guitar. So I sold my electric guitar on
an acoustic and went off to Amsterdam. And I remember
the first gig very unlike me, because I was not

(05:41):
the most confident personal in the world at that time.
Still probably not, and I asked if I could sit in,
which I thought was very brave of me at the time,
and I found myself on stage. It was a listening audience.
It was the first folk club that I had ever
been in. That's one of the things that always amuses
me because in my categories, of which there are legions,

(06:05):
one of them is folk. I don't know anything about
as far as I'm concerned. Folk music is Robert Johnson.
Yeah that I know that I know, But European folk music,
I mean, but that's fine, But you know, but I

(06:25):
not part of my learning. But it's I think it's
probably because I, apart from that I do play occasionally
electric guitar, I mainly am seen with an acoustic right.
And you have to remember that reviewers and the business generally,
I mean, the only way of describing music is to
hear it. So people who write about it tend to

(06:47):
write in comparisons. They say, that sounds a bit like
that person and a bit like that person crossed with
that person, and the whole system of saying what the
music is just doesn't work. Like I say, the anywhere
of describing music is to hear it, so which is
why I get soul, flunk jazz was the other one,

(07:15):
not independent whatever it is. Indeed, indeed, indeed I get
about five.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
I was reading a Spin article about you, or is
an interview with you from nineteen eighty eight, I want
to say, and they said, you know, he's he started
as an R and B artist in England. That's true,
you know, But was that true?

Speaker 2 (07:35):
I started as a Jimmy Reid clone when I bought
my first guitar, a four pound ten from Chapels and
Ealing Broadway, if anybody knows that, I got home and
I bought two books. In the UK at that time,
everybody bought Bert Whedon's Player in a day. But I

(07:57):
also got chet Atkins had a by guitar. And I
remember sitting on my bed in my bedroom and I
couldn't make head or tail either of I just couldn't.
I just couldn't work anything out. But I already felt
because from the moment I heard Let's Together by Jimmy Reed.

(08:19):
I mean, he's known mainly for a big boss man,
but but the moment I heard Let's Get Together, it
was kind of like, I don't know the first time,
I don't know, like and still still for me, the
best work he ever did. Hey, Joe the Hendrix, say
and all the first time when we when we were

(08:41):
working at an is room jazz club in Drury Lane. Uh,
the first time I heard James Brown, I mean, these
these changes.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
For on record.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
It was on the jukebox there we were in the bar,
you know, after after hours, when the audience had everybody
gone away, and somebody put James Brown on and and
it was kind of my immediate thought was, he's got
it backwards. He's playing it backwards, because as a jazz person,
I was used to not on the one, not on

(09:19):
the one.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, it's a strange emphasis, you know.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
So I was immediately confute, confused, and I knew I
really liked it. But but I mean, that was my
first impression. He's playing it backwards. What's going on? So
so yeah, but like I say, I'm sitting in my
bedroom and I but I already felt Jimmy reed and

(09:48):
so I looked that, you know, that shuffle and and
it went from there, and then I I was, I was,
I was sixteen, and then I put a band together
with my I've got I've I had four brothers, the
brother just above me, was five years older than me.

(10:08):
He's he's a Sally responsible uh for a hell of
a lot, because he had a really extensive record collection,
but he only had the best wow in every genre. Yeah,
when I look back, he had the people who really
made every genre work.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Is that your brother who's on the cover of Children
of Children of Children?

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, he's holding me. I'm the baby.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
That's your brother on that.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
That's that's that's calling. And so I mean I could say,
for example, that I'm an autodidact. Now, oh yeah, I
taught myself bullshit. He had a huge record collection whom
I like, I say, from Robert Johnson through to Cecil Taylor.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
How does how do? How do you want? Tomass a
collection of of of really choice music from America at
that time. Like was it easy to get American records?

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, I mean, I mean all of us were. I
was brought up with the Great American Songbook, and I
was brought up with American jazz right the way, you know,
passing through our Tatum to Cecil Taylor as piano monk
Miles Mengus. I mean I started out as a Jimmy
Reid clone, and I had a disturbing piece of information.

(11:35):
His son clearly the kind of kid who walking down
the school school corridor you trip up, because his bass
player was his son, who was either nine or eleven
on that track, and it was kind.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Of how dare you wait, Jimmy, Jimmy Reid's.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Son, and it was kind of how do you be
so talented and be able to do that groove and
on that track. I don't know whether it's true, but
I was told that his son at the time of
that recording was either nine or eleven.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Nine, ten or eleven on Let's Get Together, which was
made famous later by I think cant He did like
a version that was a hit.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
And oh right, I mean that's that track still living,
It's that track is a part Wow.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, it's a strange. It's a strange. It's a shuffle,
as you said, but it's a He has a really like,
kind of laconic kind of well well, I mean, I.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Mean, Jimmy Reed. I always I also say this about
women Morton the composer, although it's a little unfair on Morton,
but it's pretty much Walton that they both have only
one thing that they do, but both of them are fantastic.
I mean, you know, I mean to get that shuffle right,
I don't. I don't think I've heard anybody else be

(12:50):
able to do it right. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Keith Richards famously, you know, is a fan of that
as well, and he tries, you know, he has his
version of it, but it's not the same.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
No, which is one of the funny things about we
were talking about genres. I mean, R and B now
is kind of what we used to call lovers lovers
rock ah and R and B then had muscle now

(13:20):
if I mean, I I must say one of the
things that well, I do find a little bit is
that I keep being told to chill.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
What do you mean explain music?

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Well, I go, you know, you go from music to
music and music and it's always recommended because it's music
to chill too. I don't want to chill. I want
to be enlivenment. You know, I don't. I don't. I
don't want to chill.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
You know, I agree, I agree, And you know, people
think about I love jazz as well, and people always
think about jazz as music you put to cool out
to chill, and it's like the first jazz is really
it energizes you. You get anxious. Yeah, exactly, exactly exactly,
you could get wired. Yeah, I get wired listening to jazz.
You know, I get the most energy I could get

(14:09):
from anything.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Clearly, also, they've never heard of David Sampon uh, and
they've clearly never heard Paul Gonzales twenty minutes solo chill sorry.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Man mingus, chilling, mingus.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
I think Monk is still my favorite pianist. Jazz pianis
so yeah. I mean I I like I say, it's
it's uh. And of course, of course when he gets
up the dance with Charlie Rowse or most most Underrated,

(14:46):
I love that band that those those that that's a
great band. And like I say, for me, my I
was talking about. You know, I could say I was
I taught myself, but in fact I was taught because
Collie had such like I said, with her, he had
the cream of of every genre that he bought. And

(15:06):
so I was taught by every musician I'd ever heard.
On that record collection. You don't do this kind of
thing on your own, you know. I remember hearing there
was a rock god being interviewed and there and he
was asked what his influences were, and he said, Oh,
I don't have any influences. It's just me. And I thought, well,
you're either a liar or a genius, and I know

(15:28):
you're not a genius. You know.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Do you remember who that was?

Speaker 2 (15:34):
No, I don't remember. Well, it was the kind of
person to very quickly forget. So, yeah, I mean I
had so, I probably had thousands of teachers.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Can you can you locate that Jimmy Reid blues shuffle
thing and you're playing at all because it's funny. I
don't know if I hear it.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, I mean I I used to play it exactly
as he played it. Now I play it differently. Before before,
I mean before I had my first record deal, I'm
publishing deal. On the same day, I had a band
call Safari, and we did We did some wood stuff

(16:14):
and I arranged several backrack how David's song cool. But
because I come basically from the jazz tradition, I've never
seen the point of doing a cover where the only
thing that changes is the singer's voice. The whole idea

(16:36):
is that you're supposed to try, at least to take
the material and put you into it. If you've got
somebody to put into it. It's to take you and
make it your own, even if it's not very good
your own. But you're supposed to do what you do.
My good friend Woody who was the drum well, we

(16:58):
all met, Woody, Bob and I we met. Our first
real work was with a guy called Hamilton King's Blues Messengers,
which I replaced the Kings. I replaced Ray Davis as
the guitarist in that band. And what he was on drums,
Bob was on his Hammond B three.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
And did you know Ray Davies at that time?

Speaker 2 (17:23):
No, no, I no, And it's actually it's only in
the past ten years that I you know, it just
came across Hamilton's band and in which the article said
that Ray Davis was a guitarist, not Dave Davis, who
was the lead guitarist in the.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
King Yeah, Ray a songwriter.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yes, sorry. I replaced him with Hamilton King's whose Messengers.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
I think was in that as well, the drummer of Fleetwood.
At a certain point it.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Might will have done. I mean Hamilton Hamilton influenced a
few people still see him now another giant. Yeah. That
The thing about me is that I don't I don't
have one genre that I write in. But when I

(18:17):
got my contract, my first contract, when they discovered that
I could actually hold the stage on my own. I mean,
I supported people like Chicago at the Olympia in Paris,
me and my guitar and you walk on stage, nobody
knows who the hell you are. I had learnt because I,

(18:42):
you know, a lot of the gigs that I did
once I had my contract were in what we call
working men's clubs, and they were also in clubs where
you know, you know, I remember one in whole huge club.
These were places where people went to eat, drink and
have a laugh. And I did that for quite a
few years, and I had to learn how to walk

(19:04):
on stage, sit down and make them be quiet from
listen and I this is one of the reasons why
I worry about about people kids starting out now. I
don't know whether it's the same in the States, but
you know, there's not many places they can what I
would call learn their trade, which I think is a

(19:26):
disservice to them. The first thing that seems to go
when money is short is the arts is very annoying
and stupid culturally, frankly, But when they realized that I
could actually hold the stage on my own. I had

(19:47):
years and years, about thirty odd years of forty years
of performing like that. Although my albums are mainly with
a band with guys and girls playing, I should think
probably ninety percent of my performances over fifty odd years
have been me solo on stage kind of four guitars

(20:10):
and a keyboard. And well, the other thing is once
we started recording, because I think the first thing we had,
the first on the first album, and the first song
that we recall a turntable hit. It was a radio hit,
and every said it's always going to get this is
going to chart. There's a song called make my Day.

(20:32):
I find I kind of got channeled into something that
I was quite happy with because I could do it.
It was obviously me. But jazz and funk and blues
were not part of that deal. So they may occasionally
slip in over those years. But and I'm no, I mean,

(20:55):
that's not a fault. You know, it's not that that
wasn't anything about the music business saying oh you can
only do this, But that's just the general trend of
how it went.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
But you know, you think about your first three albums,
the first one your title it's you with the guitar
looking very singer songwritery or you know, so maybe I
could see how they could think folk and then the singer,
and then the singer and the song is your second album,
and then you know, the third album is again it's
you with the guitar on the cover. So I mean,
I guess I see why the image might People might

(21:29):
see the image and think, oh, well, you know it's folks,
and you know, you got your cat Stevens around and
your who are you know, whoever else, and so it
fit a niche.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Well, that was also the time when you you were
asked could you please smile?

Speaker 1 (21:45):
And how did you take that?

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Well? I kind of, I mean I kind of thought
it's not my job to get in their way. They
know what they're doing. So it took me a while.
I mean, there was some difficulty in so far as
I could only talk music, and the music business is
not filled with people who know anything about music.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
There are people, but it's not filled with people.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, but it's not filled with them. And I happened
to be at the situation where I could only talk music.
So it was a matter of me explaining and I
and I also got into all show me a while
to get out of believing that people who were successful
in the music business knew about music.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well, I mean, let's just say you signed with with
with Pie Records. Who I mean we were just talking
about Ray Davies. I mean, the Kinks were signed a
Pie and you know, they did not get Ray and
Davies did not get along with the label sort of
felt that they had more of a pop sensibility and
weren't weren't interested in his experimenting, you know, in terms
of sound and song.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
And I have to say I did not get on
with it.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
Right you you allowed it to sort of.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Well, I take responsibility. I mean, I take responsibility for
my career.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
I mean I can bitch if I wanted to, but
it would be misplaced.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
In retrospect, I've been given a great deal of freedom
in so far as at the time. And I knew
this very early on. At the time, I was not mainstream.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
It seems like you could have been, though, I mean,
like even just crying, laughing, loving line not getting the
US release. You know, it's like you know when you
think like on Warner Repriez, you know, like Randy Newman's
getting released and you know who else, you know, some
of the Beach Boys more experiment Van Dyke Parks right like,

(23:45):
and you're like, there would have been there could have
been a market for in the US, you know.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
I got to say, Vandidike Parks would have been a
bit difficult for the I mean would.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Have It's difficult for everyone over here too.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
It just wonderful. And I'm so pleased that Van Dyke
Parks met Brian Wilson. So pleased because I loathed the
surfing stuff. I just thought, I just thought, well, here's
another gang of white guys, you know, stealing chut Berry's

(24:20):
music and not doing it very well with craping. Uh.
And then of course, if it hadn't been for Parks,
my very favorite, I mean it. I didn't like the
Beach Boys until I discovered the Sunflower album and then
there was backs on that and I thought, ah, this

(24:41):
is what he really does. Uh. And then still my
favorite of all the things he's done is this is
the song surfs up that album is there's a there's
a line in that which ends with the words of
Children's Song, at which point, on occasion I find crying. Uh,

(25:09):
it's it's one of my all time favorite tracks, you know,
along with five Union other's favorite track, but of the
Beach choice of his work. And then of course they
did he and I passed in when he kind of
vaguely left the Beach Boys. After recovering, he and Van
Dyke Parks did a really good album together. But I'm

(25:32):
so pleased that they met.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
We'll be back with more from labby Siffrey after the break.
What else were you listening to at the time, Because
I mean, your music really is one of one. It
doesn't sound much like anything else. What were you taking
in at the time of early and you like Steps
in the early seventies, at the time of seventy seventy
one seventy two, as you're making those first few records.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
What was I listening to? Ah? Well, one of the
things was I felt very lonely throughout my career because
I couldn't find people in the UK who were writing
anything that seemed related to what I was writing, very

(26:23):
much as far as subject matter is concerned, but also stylistically.
And it was not until I found this is early seventies,
until I found the kind of I suppose the triumvirate
of Brandy Newman, Harry Nilsen and Laura and Iro. Wow,

(26:47):
it's those three, I mean New York Tenanderberry. Really really
it should be one of the things that if you
haven't heard this, I'm going to lock you in a
room and handcuff you and you're going to listen to this.
And it was only when I discovered those three that
I thought that I felt I'd found a home. Wow,

(27:10):
that I found people who were kind of doing what
I was trying to do. So, I mean that was
that was that was a great comfort to me because
I did feel in the UK very alone stylistically.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Uh, what was it you felt you were trying to
do that they were doing as well.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Funny, it's not. This is one of the reasons why
I you know, you know the business about me having
a hard time in music business. I was very fortunate
because my first manager, who's really a real one, was

(27:53):
was guy called Peter Gormley, who in fact was also
the head of Festival International, which was the who I
signed with. And uh, I actually think they looked after
me in retrospect because I was never a really huge seller,

(28:14):
you know, commercially, I was not hugely commercially successful, and
at one stage they thought that maybe they put me
with certain particular writers who who were making more commercially

(28:34):
viable stuff, that it might rub off on me. Of course,
what's the foolish thing to think. But it made me
examine what I was trying to do. I started asking
myself what am I trying to do? And I remember,

(28:55):
rather I won't mention, you know, but this this is
a guy, you know, multiple hits and written for outloads
and loads of people. And I asked myself the question
of well, what am I trying to do? And I
came to the conclusion. My first conclusion was, well, they're
trying to write a hit and I'm trying to write
a good song. Immediately after which I thought, what the

(29:17):
hell do you mean by a good song? If five
million people or if a million people are emotionally moved
by a track that you think is rubbish, hang on,
that's a good song. What do you mean by a
good song? So which is my com was my conversation
with myself. You know, that's just lazy, siffy, you know,

(29:39):
forget about good song. And I finally came to the
conclusion that the problem was not a problem as far
as I was concerned, was that I wanted to write
useful songs, societally useful, said useful songs. That was the
conclusion I came. I mean, other people might come to

(30:01):
completely different conclusion, but that's what I realized I was
trying to do, which was one of the reasons I
think they they they were kind of patient because I
was bringing in huge amounts of money. And of course
I was one of those people then who and just
about every company has that, they have one or two

(30:22):
people who bring in all the money, and then they
can take other artists who they think can do well
but not that well. But they don't need to do
that well because they've got you know, they've got the
banc or someone of that of that, And so I was.
I was one of those artists who occasionally had a
hit uh and occasionally had a couple of covers, but

(30:46):
not a big sell.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
And and and who was subsidizing it was like Olivia
Newton John who was.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Managed Actually the main the main money maker in Gorney
management was griff Richard.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Ah Shadows Shadows, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Then Olivia, and then Dahlia Larvae and for a while
Cardia Glen Cardier, who I produced, I produced a track
which I'm still very very proud of. He wrote a song,
Oh my god, it's online and then my memory is
going again. We wait, it will come back to me.

(31:25):
Really good track. Uh when the fire dies uh uh.
And I produced that. It's happened a couple of times
when I've heard somebody and thought that's mine, that I
got it. You know, I gotta, I gotta produce it.
I gotta, I gotta do an arrangement and produce this

(31:45):
guy and uh and and that went very well. They
I don't listen to my stuff very much, but I
occasionally come across things and that track still gets to me.
So yeah, I so in fact, record record business wise,
I think I I think I've been very fortunate, and

(32:07):
I can certainly think of other people who originally I
would would would could have signed with who if I
had signed with today, I'd be broke.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Fair enough I signed.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
I was fortunate that I actually signed with a group
of people who were honest, and I still, fifty odd
years later, worked with three of them.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
One in particular, Bran Good. I did the art, he
does the commerce.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Were there other labels or management groups you were speaking with.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
No, I mean I I when what when the call came?
You know, first I was publishing and the recording for
the contracts up and down that time. I wasn't thinking
about anything. I mean, I no, I the business. It
would just never have occurred to me. People never believed
They say it, eh, god, it's bookshit.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
I never.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yet. Fame and fortune was not part of my plan,
not because I had a plan, It's just that they
never occurred to me. Yeah, I mean I decided at
thirteen that my first decison was I was going to
be a bass singer. I mean, I remember college took
me for two one hundred Oxford Street, which was a

(33:33):
jazz club, and a vibe slayer called Bill Losage and
his band were playing, and it was one of those
raised stages, and I remember I Holly was standing there,
and I was thirteen, and I was quite sure. I
didn't start growing really until later, so I was still
quite small, and I'm looking up and Bill Sage had
a girl singer with him. Excuse the arrogance that's going

(33:58):
to follow here. I was thirteen years of age and
I was looking up at her, and I had two
thoughts separated by about two seconds. My first what was
I can do that, immediately followed by I can do
better than that. I'm certain news. I'm thirteen years of age,

(34:22):
and I just wanted to make music. And the other
part of it, the business and the money and all
of the fame and well fames another thing. Uh it
just it wasn't that I you know, I had a
plan or I decided to do this or did I
didn't make any of those decisions. I just wanted. I
just wanted to be able to earn enough money so

(34:43):
I didn't have to do a day job and I
could just the musician. But anyway, yes, that was my
That was my first thing is I wanted to be
a I wanted to be a singer. And I mean
one of my greatest influences, I suppose as a vocalist
probably be the Holiday, would be at the top the
Divine's era, of course, be Joe Williams, Melton May, Jimmy

(35:13):
Read Hallan Wolf, Uh, Alan Wolf. I don't think I'll
ever get away from Alen Wold, and of course before that,
Fats Domino, who his timing is incredible, The end of
every line is perfect. Mm hmm, uh'd something. And of

(35:35):
course Louis Armstrong, the first jes singer whose timing and
phrasing is an embarrassment to us. All yeah, it was
still you know, it's kind of yea, I give in.
It's like it's like that bark moment, which actually I
took quite seriously, the bark moment. I remember buying, uh,

(36:01):
the partitas for for for solo violin, and I put
it on and it was actually had this conversation with myself,
which was, what's the bloody point? How dare you call
yourself the writer of music? What's the bloody point? BArch
has done everything, there's nothing left to do. In the

(36:23):
same way that Miles said of Louis Armstrong, Louis played.
Louis plays everything, including the modern stuff. Now, Louis wasn't Miles,
but I knew exactly what Miles meant.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
And you know what's fascinating about Louis too, I mean
he did fall out of I was gonna say he
never went out of side. He did fall out of
style a bit because I guess during you know, like
during the Bebop era, you know, Dizzy made fun of
him a bit, but he always had an audience like
Louis always had from beginning to end. He always had
an audience, which is fascinating to me, you know.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
We also for me as a singer, his timing and
phrasing yeah are remarkable.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah what he lacks in and maybe uh, you know,
some people don't prefer the dam you know as well.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
I mean, well, along come, you know, I mean along
comes very White. There hasn't been a bass baritone in
the charts apart from Barry White. And what another underrated
person as far as I'm concerned. What an amazing thing
at what great arrangements?

Speaker 1 (37:28):
Yeah, amazing arrangements, you know.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
So Louis. I mean I never had a problem with
the voice. I mean, you know, one of the one
of the one of the frankly I think unfair things
was the fact that you know, he was always laughing
and grinning and playing around, which didn't go down down
too well as far as the civil rights and on
the movement. But he was not an uncle Tom No, No, yeah,

(37:59):
you know, not not at all. If you see some
of his interviews, he is nobody's fool.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
No, And I know, like like like I was saying,
dizzy Gillespie, like you know, would make fun of him
openly for for a long time.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Apologize, but easy to make fun of Louis Armstrong's a
bit rich.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Point.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Go on, that's a bit rich.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
I'll let you say that they're were going.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
To go along the line of cab callaway on from onwards.
I mean, come on, that's.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
True, that's true. It's a good point. It's a good point. Yeah, yeah,
one last break and we'll be back with labby Siffrey.
Throughout your career, I mean, have you always been listening
to new music as it always been?

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well, you mentioned the Beatles, and that was different. We
in my little group. I remember Woody and I. I mean,
Woody is the drama. The drummer played in several bands
would be he toured with Sonny Stet Wow and uh.
He and I we would wait for the next Beatle

(39:13):
album because every album, about five of the albums, every
album changed the world as as musicians were concerned. I
remember he and I we were in Padi Circus and
there was there was a very it was a very
narrow small shop and it was a music It was
a record shop and they had speakers on the outside
and they played, and I remember we were standing and

(39:35):
we were facing Piccadilly Circus and she's leaving home. Came on.
I started crying, we're standing there where. Yeah, we're grown guys,
you know, we're toughies. And I started crying, and I
I purposely didn't look towards Woody because I was afraid

(39:59):
that he would be crying too, and then embarrassed. But
every but every every album was the world has changed.
And when I I heard nineteen ninety nine, which I
still haven't, I'll never get over it. Uh, my world
changed again. Wow. I mean it was like the first
time I heard Cecil Taylor my world, the first time

(40:20):
I heard on Coleman, my world changed, the first time
I heard Miles, My first time I heard Bird by
the Way. The orchestra, the album with Burden and orchestra
sometimes gets frowned upon. He doesn't give an inch on
that album. I mean, he just does what he does.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
I think it's a great album.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah I do too, I've heard it being you know,
oh he's sold out. I mean the same as when
Bob Dylan. The same as Dylan put down his acoustic
and picked up an electric guitar. Apparently he was a
traitor and he's betrayed the folk movement. Yeah shit, catch up.

(40:59):
But then again, the artist is one of the jobs
and the responsibility of the artists. The artist should always
be ahead of the audience. I mean, if you'd have
asked the listeners of the world world in the nineteen fifties,
how would you like popular music to go in the
sixties and seventies, you wouldn't have had. Well, all guys

(41:24):
with funny haircuts and cheeky chappi is not from New
York or from London. How about the northern Liverpool? How
about Liverpool? And they're influenced by motown and Little Richard
rock and roll, and they kind of get later on

(41:45):
into really knowing something about classical music. And for some
odd reason they're also kind of link to what we
used to call a British music hall. Yeah, no one
would have thought of that. You know, the audience doesn't
know what it wants of any artists. They think, but

(42:05):
the audience don't know what they want until they get it.
The artists, really good ones kind of always a pace
ahead of the audience. Yeah, and that's what's supposed to happen.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, Prince too, where were you when you heard nineteen
ninty nine, because you weren't making music at that point,
or at least releasing.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
I I was still making a lot of music, but
I wasn't really it wasn't exactly like me and the
music business fell out. It's just that I realized at
one stage that I shouldn't be in the music business.
I mean, I just I don't fit, and so I
kind of kept kind of retiring. And also after I

(42:52):
was probably possibly it must be love. No, it was
before it must be love. It was sometimes in the
second album when people started to recognize me when I
went out, and after about three months, I knew I
was never ever going to light it really or whatever.
I just joined, I'm never going I was never going

(43:15):
to enjoy that. I mean, I learned how to do it,
but I, like I say, that was never part of
my plan, and it never occurred to me that that
was going to happen. I just thought I'd make music. Actually,
I don't even think I even thought about being successful.
I mean, it didn't occur to me that I have
the business of being a successful musician. I just wanted

(43:37):
to play music.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
Was there was there was never a feeling of I
want to be successful just to show my parents that,
you know, look.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
What I've done. No, never, never, no, never.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Did your parents approve of your musical career?

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Of nineteen And i'mre in the hall of our house
and there's me with one suitcase, my guitar case and
a guitar and doing the I going to be a musician,
and my father and my mother in the hall. My
father is shouting, you're throwing your life away. I quote

(44:17):
for the batim. My father is shouting, you're throwing your
life away, and my mother is crying, and I and
I march out of the house in a I am
going to do this. And I walked down to the
bottom of the road and suddenly realized I don't know
where I'm going. So my advice to people who are
going to make a dramatic exit from the family is

(44:40):
at least make sure you've got bus fare. I mean,
when when you say had you got a plan? That's
that was? That was how good my plan was. And
if it hadn't been for Brian, my favorite brother who's
now dead. I walked down the hill, I got to
the bottom the street, the main street, and I didn't

(45:04):
have anywhere to go, and I don't have any money.
I called Brian and he had a run room. Uh.
And the kid schured and he said, well, you better
stay with me. So I stayed with him until because
he was he was just about to get married and
he was going to move from London up to Steptford,
I think, so I stayed with him. And yeah, he

(45:26):
helped me get a job. I mean, I mean I
didn't know anything about what should I do. I've got
to get a job, I suppose, and he helped me
get a home and then my first job in soul
Ways uh in Beth mcgreen. I just liked boxes around,
boxes of goods around, which is actually where a lot

(45:49):
of the stuff that they had they did. They did toys,
but they also were the distributor for super Fun, which
I think was the Czechoslovakian record company. They're still around
h But it was really good quality stuff, you know,
proper orchestras and everything. But they were slightly cheaper recordings

(46:10):
in the UK and other places, so they were affordable.
There was a Jordie in there who was older than me,
and I was this kid and he said to me,
have you taken anything yet, what do you mean, He said, well,
we don't get paid very much. In fact, I was
earning eleven pounds a week and I was living on milk,

(46:31):
read rolls and the apples. Yeah, that's what I was
living on. And and he said, we've got all these records.
Taste some. I said, it was kind of stealing. He said, yeah, yes, yes,
come on, and it was. And the part of the
stuff was I got Yanachek's Glagolithic Mass, which once again

(46:55):
changed my world familiar. I got the Master Sounds. Where's
Montgomery's Brothers? That's where I got it from the Master Sounds,
and a couple of things. I think I only took
three or four because it was kind of stealing, stealing,
But but it was a very good thing that I
had because that's where I discovered. That's that I mean,

(47:18):
that was my inn to twentieth century orchestral stuff, and
that was my inn to wars Montgomery.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, those are two strands you can that I can
hear through the music. So I can't hear Jimmy Reid
as well, but I can hear those things. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Well, I mean it's funny because before the first album,
I'd met a writer a fiction called David Leslie, David
Stewart Leslie, and I read one of his books. It
was really good, and he was kind of going to
be our manager. He asked me, let's write a musical.

(48:02):
This was a long time before I got my deal,
So he and I wrote a musical for children called
The Magic Bed. He wrote the book and I wrote
the song. Now this is before. This is long before
i'd started work on anything like on the first album,
which was several years later that I that I started
on the on the first on those tracks. So in fact,

(48:24):
by the time I got the deal, I'd already written
probably half of the first album, but A with a
Magic Bed, almost from the get go, Apart from the
songs that I wrote in my bedroom before I had
marched out of the house grandly telling them I'm going
to be a musician. It was after that that I
actually kind of got into writing and from the from
that first batch, some of which are now bonus tracks

(48:48):
on some of the re mastered stuff. They're really good
song Wow, they're very mean. When I listened to them,
I think, yeah, that's very mean, and they're really good
and actually surprises me because I I can't really, It's

(49:10):
sometimes difficult for me to remember that person. And for example,
Woody who mentioned before the drummer, as I say to
all this sunny stick in the bands that we had,
would he remember things from our past that which is
probably a blooding thing. I was going to say.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
You you've had you've kept relationships for a long time,
so it's surprising me that you kind of can't. And
you were in a partnership for I mean what nineteen to.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Well, Peter, Peter and I were together for forty eight years,
Ruth and I were together for nineteen years, and Peter
Rout and I were in a manager Tina for sixteen years.
I mean, so very lucky. All in all, I've had
fifty two years of love, which is a wonderful thing

(50:08):
they both did.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
No, I'm always you know, curious, forty eight years does
it ever feel like enough?

Speaker 2 (50:20):
Love is never remard.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Because you hear these things. You hear forty eight years,
sometimes you hear fifty years. And when I was younger,
I used to think, oh, wow, well, you know, it's
like a lifetime. You know, should be so lucky, and
then you start to get you know, I'm a little
bit older. I sort of think forty eight, there's no time,
you know, my god.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
You know, well we I mean if they were both alive,
we'd all still be together. I mean, I mean people.
One of the things that people get asked is what
makes a good marriage. I mean, we were a family
of three husbands, you know, when when when Route joined us,
that question about what makes a good marriage? Uh. And

(51:05):
one thing that happens in a good marriage is that
you become a tea and Peter and I were a
really good team. Uh. And then when Route joined us,
we were a better team because anything that two of
us couldn't do, the third could.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yeah, And that's how it functioned. That's how we functioned,
and we and it was very clear which what each
of us was good at.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Uh, that's how. That's what a good marriage done. You
become a team or not necessarily you have to be married,
but a good you know, the partners. I mean human beings,
you know about apart from apart from some notable departures,
human beings are I'm very pleased about evolution. I wish

(51:57):
it would hurry up and do something about the human race.
But human and I don't mind the fact that we
are genetically programmed at all, but human beings in the
main I can certainly think of quite a lot of exceptions,

(52:18):
have a need to nurture and be nurtured. Unfortunately, more
than half of the world doesn't accept that. But that
is what human beings are. They are programmed, and hopefully

(52:39):
as I grow up that is made even stronger by association,
finding the right person or something. And I mean I've
often thought that the answer to the human problem is that,
you know, everything does start with the family. I mean,
I'd spent my whole life trying to make one, and eventually,

(53:00):
when there were three of us, I suddenly realized one
day what I've been trying to do for all those
years before that I actually done it. You know, talk
about you talk about the forty eight years. Yeah, fortunately,
I mean yeah, I mean there's that commitment, but it's
the business of Okay, So you start with they the couple,

(53:24):
and that's that family of two. You can have a
family too, and then it widens, you know, usually with children,
and then that's the family. And then as it goes on,
you include your first cousin, yeah, oh, your nephew, and
then you've gon include, and it goes like that until

(53:46):
you get to a few friends. One of the things
that I just couldn't understand that made me really annoyed
when Facebook turned up, what do you mean you're all friends?

Speaker 1 (53:58):
You know?

Speaker 2 (53:58):
I mean, this isn't your friend. You don't understand, do you?

Speaker 1 (54:05):
No?

Speaker 2 (54:06):
No, this is not your friend.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Do you want? I think you want that argument?

Speaker 2 (54:12):
And so you're so. And it occurs to me that
if we can, only, if we can only widen the
amount of people who we consider to be family, which
means that you you have a responsibility to them and
they have a responsibility to you. And the more that
gets widened, that would be a solution to Are are

(54:39):
ever ever annoying as a species? Hubris? Uh? You know
we're all number one. All our nations are great nations.
Even some of our towns and cities are great towns
and cities. You know, there's a difference between great and powerful. Yeah,

(55:02):
And if you've got homelessness and child poverty, you are
not a great nation. No matter how wealthy you are,
you have child poverty, you are not a great nation.
And you know you can sit on your sofas and
in comfort declare yourself to be a patriot and wave

(55:23):
your little fat flag. You know, start, yes, start, you know,
take life seriously. Unfortunately that is a rarity. Yeah, h yeah,
which is probably why I write some of the things
I write.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Do do you consider your songs part of your family,
part of your.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
They're my songs. I try and protect them as nice
as I can, because well, I mean, there's that business
once the end up trying to be useful. And also
there's that there's I mean, there's there's the spin offs
which aren't aren't intentional, but they just happened if you

(56:03):
write a certain kind of song.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
One of the things about writing love songs, for example,
is that you could say that it's part of the job.
It's actually part of it. It's something that does happen
if you do it well. And that is you find
yourself saying things that loads and loads of people want
to say but they can't. So by the things that

(56:28):
you write, you provide them with something so they can
say something. I mean, it's it's like an audio version
of buying flowers for the love. You know. It's it's
because you can't because you can, and most people, lots
of people can't say these things and you can say
it in song, So it's a kind of gift. And

(56:50):
the other thing, of course, is that there are lots
of things. I mean, it's always fascinated me that as
a child, and I think it's still the same now.
The advice given is don't talk about politics or religion.
And I'm from very young. I mean, I spent eleven
years in a monastery school. From very young. It seems

(57:10):
to me, well, who benefits if we don't talk about
politics or religion? Religion, by the way, is politics. Who
benefits if we don't talk about the two things which
are in fact the two things that govern most things
on this planet apart from money. I know, I've written

(57:32):
things that very very few people would even dare to write.
You're not going to find very many people who've written
a song like school Days, for example, or a Kiss
in the mirror and so. But as far as I'm concerned,
those things are important. And it also it annoys me
because novelists can do it, novelists can address serious issues.

(57:59):
But about I mean, I always loathed that business. And
there's still critics, certainly in the sixties and seventies who
actually said no, pop music's not supposed to last. What
do you mean, Yeah, yeah, so you want us to
write crap and you'll applauded.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Yeah, it's supposed to be disconfection, just kind of for
the moment. It's yeah, yeah, it's well, you certainly did
the opposite. It's it's incredible how you how your music
seems to only pick up steam as it as time
goes on. I mean, you know, even just I really

(58:37):
enjoyed the movie The Holdovers I was watching. I watched
that on a plane maybe a year ago. There's There's
there's your song, you know, the title track from Loving Line,
and then you know, Blessed Telephone now as its whole
whole life of its own amongst young people, and certainly
these songs are standing the test of time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Well, my first agent and I remember saying, I I
don't know why I came up in conversation. He said
to me, I think it was probably see a good
song never dies. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry. Now that's
how Ericans as well. But I mean, the interesting thing
is I've always very much believed in my work. I mean, uh,
you know, sometimes you know, we can within the distant

(59:19):
past I have thought to myself, Uh, this is a
good one. People will catch up. But it didn't happen.
I mean that was that was the mantra in the older,
in the time, in the in the early days of
of the Stones and the Beatles, as far as their
management was concerned, you have to break in America.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
So it was only when uh dre uh yeah, uh
took the baseline I'd written for on for I got there.
In fact, they took quite a lot of the track. Yeah,
it was more than basement, uh base. But but that

(01:00:01):
was the beginning of a kind of America, part of
American small boat of America, uh, discovering my work and
then Candy and and everybody else. So it did happen.
I wish I'd be a bit more savvy. I hope

(01:00:23):
that young I hope that young musicians are rather more
I don't know, it sounds kind of more knowledgeable about
the business than I was. I mean, I was fortunate
that I was in that regardless when I said, my
first deals was with honest people who kind of you know,
I know it gets this, it does this, and by

(01:00:44):
the way, here's the accounting, this is what we're doing,
and I hope young people starting starting out are more
savvy than I was.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Can before we go, can I ask you what the
the story behind Blessed Telephone is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
I've done a gig. I think I can't remember this Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool,
I can't remember. And on well, and I was in
my hotel room and a certain person rang just to
ask how did how did it? How did it go?
And then on. At the end of the conversation, which

(01:01:22):
lasted half an hour or more, I found myself sitting
on the bed in my hotel room and picking up
the guitar and writing the telephone Wow, I mean that
people often ask how long does the song take? I've written?
I mean, I mean it must be love. I remember
we were we were living above the car showroom, and

(01:01:44):
Peter had gone off to work, and the door closed,
and I picked up the guitar and went to the
sofa to work, and I started writing. And I read
the first verse and the core and then the chorus,
and it must be love. And it's the only time
I've ever done this. I thought, you have to finish
this one, so if we this is that one took well,

(01:02:06):
it took a day to complete the song, but it
then took a couple of weeks to actually sort out
which what goes where. But I mean there are songs
of mine that have taken several years to write. You
know a lot of people, and there's people online who
you know who give this advice because loads and loads
and loads of people they get to a stage, they

(01:02:27):
half in a song and can't go any further with it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Yeah, do you still play? Do you still play?

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
I'm well, I mean, I'm you're you're you're seeing me
in my studio? Oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm still I mean,
I say it as a joke, but I'm not sure
it is a joke. I don't be writing on my
deathbit I expect.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Wow. Wow, Well, it was really great to meet you.
You know, real honor, real pleasure. Thanks taking the time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Find my pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Indeed, in an episode description, you'll find a link to
our favorite Labrysi free tracks, as well as some of
the hip hop songs that have sampled his work. You
sure to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record
Podcast to see all of our video interviews, and be
sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record pot.
You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken

(01:03:16):
Record is produced and edited by Leah Rohadse, with marketing
help from Eric Sandler and Jordana McMillan. Our engineer is
Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is production of Pushkin Industries. If
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(01:03:39):
and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
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