May 29, 2025 • 55 mins
Today, we're revisiting a gem from our archives. In late 2020, Wilco's frontman and acclaimed songwriter Jeff Tweedy released his compact yet powerful book, "How to Write One Song" – a remarkable guide for unlocking anyone's creative potential through songwriting. This exploration of creativity immediately resonated with Broken Record host Malcolm Gladwell, leading to a fascinating conversation about the book and examining what has established Tweedy as one of the most distinctive songwriters of the 21st century so far.
You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite songs from Jeff Tweedy & Wilco HERE.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin, we have a pretty great episode from our back
catalog to play for you today. In late twenty twenty,
Wilco's frontman and songwriter released his compact How to Write
One Song Book, an immense guide for bringing out anyone's
inner latent creativity through songwriting. This is just the kind
(00:35):
of idea that my co host, Malcolm Gladwell loves, and
so the two had a nice little conversation about the
book and about what's made Tweety one of the consummate
songwriters of the twentieth century so far, So enjoy this
episode from twenty twenty. This is broken record, real musicians,
real conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Can I start with this tantalizing little anecdote. You're telling
your book that when your dad got mad, he would
go into the basement and write poems. And all I
could think of is this is the Jeff Tweety origin story.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Pretty much? I think, so yeah, it was your father musical.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
My father was a frustrated entertainer. He got my mom
pregnant in high school and they dropped out and he
got a job on the railroad, and I think his
whole life, I think that he wished that he had
had an opportunity to be on stage somehow. But he
(01:43):
was not particularly musical. But he was entertaining, that's for sure.
But he aspired to be musical. He always he liked
to sing. He drank a lot, and he got up
at every wedding and embarrassed us, terribly humiliated us in
lots of cases.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
But were his poems?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Were they any good?
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
I know my dad was brilliant, you know, they weren't.
I don't think that they were good in like a
Robert Frost way or but they might have been good
in a Jimmy Stewart kind of or Ogden Nash maybe
at the high end of his aspirations. But you know,
(02:29):
he wouldn't have had any of those references other than
Jimmy Stewart. So but he did, you know, he made
un requited forays into indulging his musical side many times,
like he bought uh an organ from the mall that
the salesman claimed would teach him how to play, and
he would just sit there and watch the lights flash
(02:51):
as it would play itself, and drink a beer. It
was a I have a lot of memories of that.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
But the poem he wrote the poems when you said
when he was angry.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
That was my memory of them.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Yeah, and I sadly, you know, a couple of summers
ago when he passed away, we you know, we emptied
out the house, the house that I the only house
I'd ever lived in when you know, like my parents
bought when my mom was pregnant with me. And I
found a lot of his homework from when he taught
(03:30):
himself or basically learned computing, early on math homework and
stuff like that. But I didn't find any of the
notebooks that had any of the poems.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
So I suspect that he just got it off his
chest and then threw them away, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I just I just love these kinds of generational parallels.
It's almost like, you know, if you were on the couch,
I would say, you're like tweety two point zero, you're
like the do over, the frustrated musicians who's writing these
essentially lyrics, and then you're you. You've come along and
(04:12):
you've turned it into an art.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Well, yeah, I mean, uh, there's there are tons of
parallels that I mean. I mean it's disturbing as you
get older, how much you start to look like your parents,
and I look like exactly like my dad. And you know,
I think he suffered from a lot of the same
mood disorders that I've dealt with in my life. But
he clumsily, but somehow, you know, as far as employment goes,
(04:39):
and far as far as like not having worsening consequences
which would be typical of alcoholism, he managed to medicate
himself clumsily for his entire life, you know, for anxiety.
I'm sure he had anxiety and depression and and yet
and he did, instinctively seem to have turned to some
(05:00):
of the same things that have provided some solace for
me that weren't unhealthy, you know, like getting things off
his chest. And you know, I was indulged a lot,
perhaps because I was a do over.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
When did you write your first song? Do you remember.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
The first song I remember writing? And I'm pretty sure
that there were songs before this, But the first song
I remember writing was a song called your Little World,
and it was about a girl and her not having
enough room in her world for me.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
And how old are you when are you writing?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Maybe thirteen fourteen?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You don't remember it, do you?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Your little World's much too small? Oh, I ain't got
no room at all, So yeah, I was. I can
remember it, I could play it.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Actually. One of the weird things is is that.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
This local musician who went by the name Joe Cammel
band Joe Cammel and the Caucasians, they actually recorded that
song and made a single out of it.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Oh really it is?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
It exists?
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Yeah, yeah, because I was. I was this kid that
hung out with all, like at the record stores and
hung out at the you know, with around other musicians
when I could get near them, and I would always say,
I write songs. And this guy in this band, Joe Cambill, said, hey,
let me hear one of your songs. And I went
(06:34):
over to his house and I played him this song.
He said, oh, that's great, I'm going to record it.
We're gonna like go to record this song, and he did.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
It's fantastic. What when do you think you wrote your
first good song?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Well, I honestly don't think that that one was terrible.
I think it's you know, it's it's not great, but
it was it was good enough for somebody else to want,
you know, see some potential in it. The first song
I liked that I wrote was probably screen Door on
the first Uncle Tupelo record. You know, that's the first
(07:10):
one where I felt like I had said something that
felt true to me and that I didn't necessarily have
anybody else's song to convey that idea. I always look
at it like I'm trying to make songs and a
new song for me to sing that someone hasn't already written,
(07:30):
So that one was the first one that felt like that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
How old are you when you write that song?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Sixteen sixteen seventeen?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, so pretty. It's funny. I just I have heard
musicians of various kinds answer that question over the years,
and there's a whole set of them who like, you know,
ten years passed between the first songs they write and
the first one they like. Yeah, but you you have
a much less ambiblic relationship to your early songwriting.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
One of the things I feel like I've had some
shame of out in my life is how shamelessly I
love stuff that I make. And I think over time,
I've really made peace with it because I think that
that's like kind of beautiful and it's kind of one
of the things that's allowed me to grow. I don't
(08:26):
I don't tend to keep liking things that I've made.
I tend to get pretty dissatisfied with them over time.
But when initially, even when I figure out how to
play something on the guitar that someone else has done,
I feel like I invented it. I have this, like,
really you know, sort of delusional relationship with the joy
(08:47):
that I take from making something, and I think that's
that that really comes naturally. So a lot of times,
my favorite song is always the one I'm working on.
Almost invariably I was like, Wow, this is a this
is really great, and it dissipates over time.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
But I I've always felt like that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Does that make you a bad judge of your own songwriting?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I think it does, And that's part of the reason
that I've had to learn a lot of different ways
to get out of the get my ego out of
the way, like allow things to just state for a
lot longer, or put them away and forget them, forget
about them so that I can come back to them
with a little bit more objectivity. But in general, I
think it's just kind of the spirit of it is
(09:35):
what comes across a lot of times, and that that,
in a lot of cases is enough because you know,
not every song has to be the greatest song that's
ever been written.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
But it sure helps if you feel like it is
at the moment, in the moment.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
You know, you describe in this lovely book You've just done,
how to write one song. Yeah, you describe a series
of exercises songwriting exercises, and also describe a kind of
what a songwriting day should look like. And I was
curious before we go into that, how long did you
(10:12):
I mean, if that's the pattern of songwriting you practice, now,
how long have you been doing it that way? Did
you always have this kind of very structured way about
writing music.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
No, I think that I've as I've gotten older. I
think one of the things I've really had to learn
how to do is provide myself structure because I work
in a profession that doesn't have a lot of structure
outside of touring, which is extremely structured and routine. You know,
but being home has always been a little bit dangerous
(10:44):
for me in terms of my mental health. Though the
routine has been something I've had to learn and has
helped me quite a bit. That being said, I don't
remember a time where I haven't felt like a kind
of a nagging sense all day that I should be
(11:05):
making something, that I should be learning something, or I
should be reading something, or I should be listening to something,
and that tends to provide a lot of momentum to
my days. This ugly feeling that I'm avoiding almost all
the time is that I don't want to get to
the end of the day and feel like I didn't
(11:26):
learn anything, or didn't make something, or just didn't participate
in my life in the ways that I've found to
be the most enjoyable and helpful to me.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
You described this ideal songwriting day in the book. When
was the last ideal songwriting day you had and what
did it look like?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
It's been a while.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I think the ideal day, the last one I might
have had, would have been during the process of making
the album I just released, Love is the King, where
you know, around eight o'clock at night or something, I
would have started working on a song that I was
thinking about recording. The next day, I would have you know,
(12:13):
worked on it and played around with it, maybeate a
little demo of it on my phone until like maybe midnight,
gone to sleep, woke up. Probably would have finished the
lyrics early in the morning, because they tend to kind
of untangle themselves in my sleep a lot of times,
(12:34):
and I like to I like to write even before
I get out of bed, you know, where I feel
like I'm still sort of you know, the judgment side
of me is still sleeping or something, you know, And
I would have gotten up and come to the studio,
maybe worked on that song for a little while in
(12:54):
the studio, head lunch, maybe taken a nap, would have
gotten up from the nap, finished the song, maybe invited
my younger son over to sing a harmony vocal on it.
Common practice in that moment when I'm asking someone else
like Sammy to sing on something would be to really
focus on the lyrics and make sure they're where I
(13:16):
want them to be.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
So I would have done some revisions on.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
That, maybe until around five or six, and have a
rough mix to take home and have some dinner and
listen to records generally until I get excited about trying
to make something to beat something I just heard, some
sort of like trying to activate some competitive side of
my brain, and then start the whole process over with
(13:42):
maybe seeing if I could, you know, come up with
another song for the next day.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
So in your ideal world, is it a song from
start to just finish in that one day, or is
is it that you have little bits and pieces already
there that you're going back and finding and playing with.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I can do a song start to finish in one day,
but typically there are little pieces of raw material that
have been accumulated. Yeah. I think one of the things
I might do at eight o'clock, say, the beginning.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Of the day I just described, would be to go.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Through my phone and find a musical idea that I'm
excited by that I don't know, just catches me enough
unaware to start dreaming about it and start like fantasizing
about where it could go or what it could sound like.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Do you have your phone with you right now? Can
you play as a musical idea off the phone?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Let's see.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Well, this one sounds a little bit maybe a little
bit more finished than normal. It's the tunnel at the
(15:11):
end of the light.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So that is that? Has that little bit been turned
into a song yet or is it just waiting?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
It's waiting.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
I mean there's and then there's stuff that's maybe I
don't even know what this is, just some chords I
thought were pretty uh, but yeah, there's there. There are dozens,
(15:44):
or not dozens. There's probably literally hundreds of those things
in my phone. When they stack up a little bit,
I usually transfer some to the computer here at the loft,
so they're at least in a couple places.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, and now time for a coffee break with my
Broken Record co host, Malcolm Gladwell. This coffee break is
brought to you by the Starbucks Coffee Company.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
With me today, I.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Have the esteemed co host of this show, Malcolm Gladwell,
who I don't think I'm telling tales out of school
here is quite a coffee drinker, right.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I enjoy coffee and a coffee shop aficionado. I'm it's
more than just its experience. It's not just a coffee.
I spend enormous amounts of time in coffee shops.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Would you say you would rather drink coffee in a
coffee shop or would you rather take it to go?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Always in? Always in? Yeah, you know, I'm not a
guy who like takes it in, like sits in my
car and drinks my coffee my car. Otherwise you're you're
ruining the fun, which is settle in a nice table
sun streaming in the window, eaves dropping on conversations, and
then you you enjoy your cup of coffee. Okay, I'm like,
(16:58):
this is a little moment in my day where I
can reflect and relax and sit back with a cup
of coffee. Wow, there's a moment in the afternoon. That's
my coffee moment. No, morning, Coffee's an experience. That's the thing.
I have my experience in the afternoon. In that little
moment in the middle of the afternoon, when everything's quiet,
(17:20):
you get feeling a little bit like calm, and you know,
and I go and I sit in the coffee shop
and enjoy myself. Remember the first time going to a Starbucks, Malcolm,
I do?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I had all these friends who they were, all these
grow friends, I mean from Stanford. They all lived in
in San Francisco, and everybody came east for a wedding.
It's in Long Island. And I remember on the morning
of the wedding, Chris, who was the chief hipster of
(17:54):
the California crowd, said, this is like, I don't know
when this was mid nineties. Maybe Chris says to the
assembled multitudes, I hear there's a Starbucks finally out here.
We piled into cars that we drove somewhere like it
was somewhere in and you know, central Long Island. Remember this,
It was quite the journey and we were like, whoa,
(18:15):
it's like this thing called Starbucks had finally arrived in
Long Island because I guess it starts I mean clearly
starts in Seattle, right. Yeah, it's very exciting, remember that.
I remember it was like it was like a destination.
It's like, that's what we're doing on the morning of
the wedding, getting a cappuccino.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It remains, it remains thirty thirty years on, remains a
destination for me.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yes, yes, I'm sure that Starbucks is still there.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Absolutely leads me to want to ask sort of seasons aside,
are you a hot coffee guy or only hot colbrew?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Only hot? To me, the whole coffee on ice thing
is like, what are you doing? Wow, that's not We're
not here for that. On a on a ninety eight
degree humid day, I will go in and I'm having
and there's always a point of confusion because I'll go
into cofee, Im sall, I have a capuccino and there's
a pawn and they're expecting me to say iced, and
(19:12):
I say not iced. This is not I'm not doing it.
I'm not. I'm not. I'm not, like, you know, turning
my back on my coffee experience just because the weather's
on the warm side. No, No, the experience remains the same.
It doesn't matter where I am having my cappuccino and
it's not got ice in it, it's hot.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I gotta say, I'm running through my memories of going
to coffee with you, and I really can't place an
iced coffee in your hand at all. I think you're
telling the truth there that you really are not doing ices.
Before we end this coffee break, I gotta ask you, Malcolm. Yeah,
there's been a whole wave of oat milk drinkers of late.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Not doing it almond milk. I am aware and grateful
for the option, and I don't look down anyone who
wants to go to the oat milk route. I am
an unwavering traditionalist. I have a cappuccino that is hot
with whole milk. I don't, I don't. I never wave
(20:09):
from that. My thing is, you know, I'm very very
you know. My whole thing on now, I've only only
drunk five liquids. I was gonna be yeah right, it's
red wine, it's water, it's espresso based beverages, it's milk,
and it's tea. That's it. And does this stand still
to this day? Yeah? Never waver never waver.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
All right, man, Well, thanks for the coffee break, Malcolm,
all right, justin all right. I know Malcolm said he
doesn't like ice drinks, but I happen to love him.
And so after we talked, I went down to my
local Starbucks here in Long Beach to try their ice
or Chotta oat milk shaken espresso. And this drink is incredible.
It's a blonde espresso combined with or chata syrup that
delivers a fusion of cinnamon, vanilla, and rice flavors, shaking
(20:52):
together with ice and topped with oat milk. I'm a
person who likes to explore the Starbucks menu. I'll go
up and down that thing whenever I'm at Starbucks. But
there are a lot of people and I can be
this way too that like the Staples. If you're one
of those people, this drink still retains that wonderful coffee flavor,
but on the back end chases it with this wonderful
(21:13):
milky cinnamony or Chota flavor as well, and it has something,
in my opinion for everyone. Your eyes for Shota oat
milkshake and espresso is ready at Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
So I'm investinated by this process. How long might some
a little bit linger on your phone or in your
archive before you use it? Is there stuff? And if
we went into the you said sometimes you download them
on at the loft. How far back would we have
stuff there from ten years ago you've never used?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, I mean probably there are.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
I used to do it on cassettes and basically I
used to just leave a cassette in a dictaphone old
style like what you would have Steno would have used,
or someone in an you know, secretary pool, and I
would just leave it on the coffee table and until
it filled up, and then I'd put another cassette in.
(22:06):
And there's there are dozens of those cassettes on the
Suki ray album that I made under the name Tweetye.
There's a song on there that I finished after fourteen years.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I think what song was it. It's called I'll Sing It.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Was there a little snippet of it that was the
original snippet.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
It's actually in the track I actually just played over
the cassette version. Yeah, yeah, And then I think that
ended up on the Summer Teeth box set that we
just put out because it was written around the same
time as Summer Teeth.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, when you go back and find a little snippet
like that, do you remember when you created the snippet
or is that gone?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
It depends. A lot of times I don't remember at all.
I have no recollection at all of a lot of
times I don't even remember the tuning, and I have
to like sit and figure out because I use a
lot of different tunings, and I really hate it when
I don't bother to tune the guitar to a standard
pitch because then it makes it even harder to figure
(23:08):
out what tuning I'm in and stuff like that. So
a lot of times it's it's it's completely gone wherever
it happened, which is kind of I love it when
that happens, even though it can be frustrating trying to
relearn it.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
But then there are times.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Where I absolutely have a distinct memory of where I
was and what was happening. And a lot of times
that's because there are other ambient elements that it made
their way onto the recording. I like, say, backstage and
somebody in Wilco walks through and says something, and I
(23:44):
can viscerally feel that that room and I'll know even
what city it was. In a lot of cases, sometimes
when I'm doing it in hotel rooms in Europe and
you have the windows open. Whenever we're fortunate enough to
find a hotel that has windows that open, you hear
like people leading on at the cafes or something like that.
(24:05):
That's those are always really kind of special recordings. It
a lot of times mean a lot to me, even
without them being finished.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah. We did an interview with Nora Jones while back
now and she was talking about how she did her
song Wintertime with You, and she was talking about this
this very process that she had some scraps, a little
bits and pieces, and you had bits and pieces and
(24:34):
you kind of put it together to create a really
beautiful song. Can you can you? Because of walk us
through that little case study of this time with a
twist with another person involved, but doing it, seems like
both of you were doing doing the work of creativity
in the same way. Is that true?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
I think that well, first of all, Norah Jones doesn't
need me to help her write a song, for sure,
but we admire each other, so there's a there's already
a kind of a base level of camaraderie or something,
you know, but I haven't found many people that I've
worked with to have it just wildly different approaches to it.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Everybody seems to have.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Sort of the core process is sort of similar. You
basically start with something that is nothing, you know, that
feels but feels like it could be something, and then
you basically surrender this idea that you can't you can't
do that, you can't make something out of nothing, and
(25:42):
you do it. And it's really the most important part
is just letting go of the idea that it can't happen.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I think, and with someone else.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
It requires a lot of waiting until you both have
you know, both people have to feel comfortable and supported
enough and trusting enough to kind of throw out ideas
until you know, a light bulb goes off in two
heads at once. It's a little bit more full proof
in a way because you have that consensus of universality
(26:13):
for two people as opposed to like just trying to
imagine that everybody will like something you like.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
We'll be right back with more from Jeff Tweety. After
the break, We're back with more of Malcolm's conversation with
Jeff Tweety.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
You've done an unusual amount of collaboration with other artists
you write for, maybe Staples. You did those beautiful Mermaid
Avenue albums with Billy Bragg that I are among my favorites.
When you're writing with another person in mind, does it
change the way you write a song?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, I think it does.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
I honestly think that that is the thing that I
am most comfortable doing. I think it's the thing I
truly aspire to do more than almost any other thing
that I get to do.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I always pick myself.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Being a person that would write songs for other people
to sing, and Uncle Tupelo. I wanted my songs to
be sung by Jay because he had this magnificent, like rich,
authoritative voice, and I had this squeaky, you know voice
that I didn't feel like was quite my own, even
(27:30):
at the time, I was struggling to find it. As
much as I felt great when I sang, I just
loved the idea of writing the song more than the
idea of singing it. And I still think that that's
where my most natural abilities lie, is in helping somebody
with another with their song, like working with Nora or
(27:52):
finding something for someone to sing like Mavis. I don't
look at it as like I'm putting words in her mouth.
I feel like I'm just kind of helping find something
that she feels comfortable singing that makes sense for her
to sing. Same thing with the Woody Guthrie lyrics. That
was even more along the lines of what I feel
(28:14):
I have the strongest sense about as being something that
comes naturally to me, because those lyrics were sacrosanct. You know,
they're like you know, you're not You're not gonna mess
with them.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
They're there.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
You don't even need to worry about whether or not
they're good enough. They're important for people that don't know.
There were all these lyrics that Woody Guthrie left behind
that the music was never documented or he never really
made any music for. There was all these archival lyrics
and writing that we took and made songs out of,
and with those I would just sit and read them
(28:46):
over and over and over again until the meter would
emerge and then next there would be a melody that
would emerge, and in a lot of cases with Woody
Guthrie lyrics, you read it and all of a sudden,
a Carter Family song emerges, because that's what he was
actually writing his lyrics to was someone else's song. I
did the same thing with a bunch of lyrics for
(29:07):
Bob Dylan that never came out because I was I
wasn't able to be a part of that process for
that record that they did a couple of years ago,
where they had a bunch of lyrics that Dylan had written.
It's like Elvis Costello is a part of it, and
some of the Mumfords and mumfort But anyway, t Bone
had asked me if I could do it, and I
(29:28):
got all these lyrics, and then my wife started treatment
for cancer, so I couldn't go to LA for the
amount of time that they wanted me to. But I
did the same thing with those lyrics. I wrote them,
I wrote and recorded a whole record in a weekend.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Like, did you find it sort of freeing to not
have to do it in your own with you with
your own voice in mind? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (29:50):
I think that I just struggle with allowing myself to
comment on certain things that I don't feel like I
have the authoritative weight to weigh in on, for for
in terms of like mayvs Or something like that, or
the things that I feel like Mayvas has a voice
(30:11):
of righteousness of some you know, of some broader scope
in historical importance and place.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
You know.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
There's just a way to it that I feel very
privileged to have been able to write for. But a
lot of those things are are not going to make
as much sense coming out of my mouth. It just
doesn't feel right for a lot of you know, social reasons.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think, what's the right word to describe your attitude
towards your own voice? Are you self conscious about it?
Speaker 4 (30:50):
No?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I mean that about Tupelo and how you preferred if No.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
I feel like I've gotten way better as a singer,
and I've worked really hard to get better over a
lot of time. And I actually I enjoy my voice,
my singing voice quite a bit. I actually do like
listening to myself singing now when I find things that
I want to sing a lot of cases, i feel
like I'm the only person that could sing it the
way I want to hear it. But that doesn't mean
(31:18):
that I'm oblivious to the fact that my voice isn't
technically great in the you know, by the normal criteria
of American idol or the voice or you know, whatever,
whatever you know.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
But all my favorite singers are like that.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Almost all my favorite singers have non traditional voices that
have become communicative.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
You know.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
It's like it's like where they trade virtuosity or technique
or whatever for sincerity or sentiment and conviction. And I
feel like I found that in my voice over time,
and I'm very, very proud of the idea that I
still work at getting better and try and sing in tune,
(32:01):
you know. But I'm more I'm much more concerned with
making the words feel the way I want them to feel.
Speaking voice, on the other hand, is awful. I cannot.
I will never listen to the book that I just
read or this interview. I might listen to you do
(32:24):
another interview with someone else.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So on this point in the book, you talk about stealing,
but you're being a little bit mischievous because you don't
really be in stealing, but you're talking about being open
to influence essentially. So give me an example of another
artist whose work you find lots of stuff to borrow
(32:47):
from and be inspired by. And I'm just curious, does
it come from everywhere? Are there predictable places where you
go to find ideas well?
Speaker 4 (32:56):
The thing I'm describing in the book is just based
on this belief that you can't really copyright a group
of chords. What I'm describing in the book is basically
me saying, well, I'm gonna look for a song that
I think has a bunch of cool chords in it,
and I'm gonna learn how to play it, and then
I'm gonna take it and make it into something that
(33:18):
no one would hear that song in it anymore. But
it's basically like just when you're a little bit stuck,
just realizing that the world is full of these, you know,
sort of naturally occurring shapes that you can appropriate. You know,
I don't look at them as being particularly ownable by anybody,
(33:39):
and especially if I don't you know, sing the same
type of song or put the same type of melody
over it, or even have the same rhythm or you know,
there are many many ways to describe it. But it's
such a it's such a liberating thing to do to
just go, oh, I'll just take these chords and and
and start there because I haven't been able to come
up with anything all day. That being said, there are
(34:03):
just tons and tons of artists, new and old, every
day of my life that I encounter, and to me,
you have to work to not encounter art that inspires you,
I think, and I think that that does overwhelm people.
I think sometimes some people do get to a certain
point where they want to hide from influence or hide
(34:24):
from the feeling that they're being challenged by other artists.
But I look at it like most of the time
I get that way too. I can feel overwhelmed sometimes,
but more often than not, I feel really invigorated by
the fact that if I go looking, it won't take
me long at all to find something that shows me
(34:47):
where the bar is that I should be aiming for.
Speaker 6 (34:50):
We'll be right back with more from Jeff Tweety after
the break.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
What's an example of a song you listened to recently
that triggered all kinds of reactions and inspirations in you?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
You know, Kate.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
I think Kate Lebon writes a lot to music that
makes me feel that way. She's just the first person
that popped into my mind. She she's an artist that
has this undeniable kate leabondness about what she does, you know,
like we're and that's that's that's hard to find, you know.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
I think there's she has a very specific.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
Angle that she comes at what she does, and and
nobody else knows that precise angle. I think the song
Meet the Man I wanted to Meet the Man. I
think that's the name of it. So I think it's
the last song on her most recent record. It has
all of these twists and turns that are unpredictable, and
I don't know, when you.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Listen to that song, can you turn off the part
of your brain that wants to to kind of learn
from it, use it, employ it in some way and
just enjoy it or do you Is it is that
part of the brain always on?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Well, that is how I enjoy it. I think that.
I think that is part of how I enjoy it.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
I I think I enjoy it first and foremost the
way I have enjoyed music since I was a little kid,
before I played any music or wrote any music. I
am just attracted to sound and excited by records. And
I don't think that that's any different, but I don't
feel burdened by the knowledge that I have now, and
(36:27):
I think it just adds this insight, like, oh wow,
I can kind of tell what reaverb is going on there.
But that being said, the things that I tend to
enjoy the most are the things.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
That I have zero idea how they came to be.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Those are the things I listen to, you know, like
have more repeated listenings, tend to be like some hip
hop records and things that are outside of my skill set,
and you know, and then then there are times where
I crave comfort food, where I just want to hear
a simple country song played on an acoustic guitar, and
(37:05):
I have a very very firm grasp on how that
comes to be, but it doesn't diminish its importance in
my life.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
You know, is there an artist, a contemporary of yours
whose career you'd have loved to have?
Speaker 5 (37:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I honestly, I've thought about that a lot.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
I have moments where I have a professional jealousy. I
think it'd be impossible not to have these moments, especially
if you're somewhat competitive like I am. I think it's like,
why is everybody righting about this guy now, like you know,
like that, like I'm not ashamed to admit I have,
like you know, it's it's not the end of the
(37:42):
world to admit you have petty feelings, you know. But
but honestly, I don't think so, because when I take
a step back, the prevailing emotion is gratitude. I mean,
it wouldn't This is nothing like I would have been
ever been able to imagine for myself, you know, thirty
years in from my first time probably playing on a
(38:05):
stage or you know, getting in front of people.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
Right back with more from Jeff Tweety, we're back with
the rest of Malcolm's conversation with Jeff Tweety.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
It would be really fun if we put together a
bunch of the stuff we've been talking about in a song,
Like is there a song that you could break down,
play and break down for us? Will you talk about
all the little pieces that brought it together, how the
song was created, the little bits of influence if you
(38:39):
remember them. Is there one that's that fresh in your
memory that you could do that a little mini masterclass.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Let me think I have a guitar here, so that's
the g chord I always play when I pick up
a guitar. It's an inadvertence.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
You're the invariant g, the tweety G.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
It's pretty same.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
It's my grounding. Well, there's a song on the new
record called Opaline where I was writing at this summer
(39:26):
or this spring, when there was so much going on
in the world, and our relationships with our police departments
were being investigated and talked about a lot. So I'm
not a person that's ever had that feeling. I've never
really been a fan of police because I've always felt
(39:47):
like police had a lot more to do with their mentality,
had a lot more to do with the people that
made fun of me and school and were more jockey
and it's just a general atmosphere around police that I've
not enjoyed. But I've not had this experience that a
lot of minorities have had with police in this country.
(40:09):
I'm aware of that, but I was trying to put
myself into that that headspace of living with that fear.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
So those were those were the lyrics.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
That I was playing around with. It's like I hear
the police outside my window. I can hear them talking
on the radios and uh, oh, you poorlice outside my window.
How can hear.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Them talk in all the radios.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
I keep my head, order my pillow, pray that they
go on leave me alone. So that's like just one
(41:08):
little chunk of this song that was a melody that
I had without any words.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Did you write that chunk first?
Speaker 4 (41:17):
Yea, I did, And then I had a piece that
was like, oh, you know, I didn't really have any lyrics,
so I was I We had a golden orb weave
spider weaver spider in our garden this spring that I
(41:40):
named Opaline for some reason, just because it just seemed
like a cool name. I had an aunt opal and
so I just started singing.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
To her, Oh, oh, made believe that she still love me?
Speaker 4 (42:02):
Oh believe. It's how to see reality.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I need got no love it all.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
So that's just writing a country song that's just trying
to figure out a way to get to the line.
Reality is hard to see when you've got no love
at all. Because one of the things that has been
on my mind.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
A lot these last few years.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Or you know, for a while now, is how do
you get to the point where reality doesn't matter? And
it obviously is very negotiable for a lot of people
in our information climate that we can shop for, a
reality that we trust and believe, and there isn't a
shared consensus a lot of times, which is really maddening
(43:01):
and strange to witness. We don't even have the same
agreed upon fictions anymore, you know, Like it's it's really troubling.
And my theory is that must be a lot easier
to do when people have been isolated from a lot
of their feelings of being cared for or having affection
(43:25):
and warmth in their life.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
So you have in this song, you have that opening
image of the kid in bed head under the pillow
and hearing the cops outside and worrying, and then you
have opening yeah, and then you also have other interesting
element is it's very plainly a country song. But we're
(43:49):
not in country territory.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Are we.
Speaker 4 (43:53):
Well, I mean, country territory is pretty pretty vast in
my opinions. To me, where country music fails is when
it tries to adhere to the tropes of country music
and becomes like civil war re enactment or something. It's
you know, it's not it's not about what's happening. And
(44:15):
this is this is a weird song for me to pick,
but I'm gonna stick with it now because we're in it.
But you know, this is this is like a This
is a little bit of a pistiche to where I
got all of these elements to make sense to me
and feel good to me. There's a story that runs
through it that feels apprehendible to me, you know. So
(44:36):
I had that, and that's probably what I put in
my phone first, aside from the initial chord progression that
I might have hummed over. That was like the first
document of this song. And then I was out driving
my car on a toll road right after that, and
(44:56):
there was a hearse on a toll road outside Chicago,
and this literally literally happened, and I went through a
toll next to a hearse And as I went through
the toll, I looked back and the hearse was stuck
at the toll like it didn't have any money or whatever.
But as I kept driving, I kept looking in the
(45:17):
rear view mirror and it was it just kept not
being let through the toll, and I just felt like
I'd been hit over the head with one of the
most striking metaphors I'd ever encountered in the real world,
you know, Like what is you know what is purgatory?
I don't know, Like I was just just one of
(45:38):
the craziest things.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
And so.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
I actually wrote this in the car into my phone
of just voice memo into my phone. There's nothing worse
then a hearse drive and slow out on the toll way.
(46:03):
Stop being at the tolls, No change, no easy pass,
what a way to go? There's nothing words then a
heart's driving slow?
Speaker 5 (46:28):
Oh you know.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
Then you get back into the forest.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Do why wait, don't question, But you had the heart
experience and you have these two little bits that you've
already done. Why do you think the hearst experience belongs
to this song or not any number of other things
that you have stashed away for future reference. How do
you know it belongs here?
Speaker 3 (46:52):
It's just what was in my mind.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
So I don't really think of things as accidents that
I need to really investigate. And it just it sang
well to these this melody before I could even make
a decision and about where it should go, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
What I mean.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
It's like that song was already in my mind. I'd
been working on it. So those are the those are
the patterns that you walk around with when you have
a song in your head. And that's one of the
reasons I enjoy having a song on my head because
then everything that happens to me is d you know,
like everything fits in that melody. It makes it makes
(47:35):
some order out of the world. I suppose you know.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
So those lyrics that you just sang for me, is
that exactly as you composed them in the car? Or
would you fiddle with them later?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
No, that's exactly as I composed them in the car.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
And did you compose them in the car like like
off the cuff or did you were you playing within
your mind before you recording.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I played with it in my mind.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
A little bit before I decided that I should document
it before I get home.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Yeah, you know. And again I'm sorry. Now I'm total
I can't get over theat this so much fun. Do
you pull over or do you keep driving and you're
singing into your phone?
Speaker 4 (48:13):
Well, I mean, not to get too technical, but I
pressed a button on my phone that allowed me to
record it without having to take my eyes off the road.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
No, I didn't mean I was suggesting you were an
unsafe driver, but I was suggesting, like, does it I
was imagined there was a scenario where you're so caught
up in this that you're like, I gotta focus and
you're like pull into the you know, the I Hop
parking lot, and but no, no, you're just you're just
driving merrily down the road, singing us into your phone.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I love also that you know, ninety nine percent of
humanity seize the hers. I doesn't see the hers or
sees the hears and doesn't immediately understand the the perfection
of that metaphor. Well, I feel like you're attuned you
you are attuned to these things.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
Thank you. I think we all should be.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
I mean, we're like we're walking around and that there's
no there's no failed experiment. And if you're paying attention
to the world, I think we get tired. I think
we get overwhelmed, like I was saying before, with like
inspiration or influence and things like that. And you know,
we're not always receptive and we're not always we don't
always have.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
The energy or.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
A lot of us have a lot of concerns all
the time about a lot of other things that would
require more mental energy than we have, and that tends
to crowd out a lot of you know, paying attention
to the strangeness of the world or the you know.
I don't feel like I'm doing anything super unique in
that regard. I just think that I am aware that
(49:48):
my brain wants to make sense of stuff, and I
give it an opportunity to make sense of stuff, you know,
or actively participate in the fact that it does that.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
I think all of our brains do that.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
All of our brains would much prefer to find some
reason for something to be the way it is, then
for to try and accept and understand ambiguity and randomness
and and things like that.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
So we're we're.
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Designed to do that, and then sometimes it hits you
over the head because it is just too perfect and beautiful,
like a hearse being stuck at a toll booth plassa.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Well, you're not done, We're not done. Keep going.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
Well the thing, you know, So there's another verse and
verse verse of chorus versus a chorus.
Speaker 3 (50:39):
And then.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
By that time I think I had already recorded it,
and I had recorded the song without any lyrics. I
didn't sing it, I just was just and then I
envisioned this like long outro guitar solo. So I needed
(51:02):
another verse and I needed something that was going to
set up a long guitar solo into a chorus, And
that was actually the hardest part, because I wanted something
that sort of tied those two pieces together a little bit,
at least ambiently somehow.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
So I came up.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
I came up with a bunch of things that I
actually changed over time, and I can't remember all the
different changes because I only know.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
I only remember what I ended up on. But it was.
Speaker 4 (51:38):
Uh, I'd like to find out while she had to
go my heart once what a heart can't control. So
(51:59):
I hang in the air as the light gets cold,
and I heard in his shadows welcome home. And then
it goes into the solo there. But to me it
(52:22):
was kind of like I had become the guy that
was hiding from the cops that got killed, They got
murdered by cops, that ended up on the highway in
a hearse, not having the change even the money to
go through a toll, you know, comically dark even in
(52:43):
my demise, still completely just devoid of any luck whatsoever,
you know, which is a country trope in a way,
you know, just like the beautiful Loser, but still but
still singing. This is a theme on the record actually
is still singing from beyond the grave to this woman
(53:07):
who basically took a took everything away in his opinion
or his feeling, but knowing basically saying, I'm I'm still
going to be in that air that you breathe.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
I'm still going to be.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
I can't have what I want, but I can still
imagine that you are going to think about me from
time to time. And it's a it's a sad, pathetic
notion that a lot of a lot of weak men
have and I've had in my life.
Speaker 3 (53:36):
And and is that you'll miss me.
Speaker 4 (53:38):
When I'm gone, And and uh, I think it's more
often than not wishful thinking.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Yeah, you to finish the song for us.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Oh well, it's just one more chorus.
Speaker 5 (53:55):
It's so beautiful, thank you, Oh believe.
Speaker 4 (54:06):
May believe that she's de love me. Oh it's hard,
ser really.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
When you got no love it all?
Speaker 2 (54:28):
I love that. Thank you, well, thank you, Jeff. I
think that's a lovely way to wrap things up.
Speaker 3 (54:36):
Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
I hope you enjoyed that catalog episode of Broken Record.
Here's some of our favorite Jeff Tweety songs. Hit the
link to the playlist in the episode description and be
sure to check out our video episodes at YouTube dot
com slash broken Record Podcast, and be sure to follow
us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can
follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is
produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from
(55:04):
Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Taliday.
Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you
love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to
Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers
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a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions,
(55:27):
and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's
back any beats.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
I'm justin Richmond.
Pushkin, we have a pretty great episode from our back
catalog to play for you today. In late twenty twenty,
Wilco's frontman and songwriter released his compact How to Write
One Song Book, an immense guide for bringing out anyone's
inner latent creativity through songwriting. This is just the kind
(00:35):
of idea that my co host, Malcolm Gladwell loves, and
so the two had a nice little conversation about the
book and about what's made Tweety one of the consummate
songwriters of the twentieth century so far, So enjoy this
episode from twenty twenty. This is broken record, real musicians,
real conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Can I start with this tantalizing little anecdote. You're telling
your book that when your dad got mad, he would
go into the basement and write poems. And all I
could think of is this is the Jeff Tweety origin story.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Pretty much? I think, so yeah, it was your father musical.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
My father was a frustrated entertainer. He got my mom
pregnant in high school and they dropped out and he
got a job on the railroad, and I think his
whole life, I think that he wished that he had
had an opportunity to be on stage somehow. But he
(01:43):
was not particularly musical. But he was entertaining, that's for sure.
But he aspired to be musical. He always he liked
to sing. He drank a lot, and he got up
at every wedding and embarrassed us, terribly humiliated us in
lots of cases.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
But were his poems?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Were they any good?
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
I know my dad was brilliant, you know, they weren't.
I don't think that they were good in like a
Robert Frost way or but they might have been good
in a Jimmy Stewart kind of or Ogden Nash maybe
at the high end of his aspirations. But you know,
(02:29):
he wouldn't have had any of those references other than
Jimmy Stewart. So but he did, you know, he made
un requited forays into indulging his musical side many times,
like he bought uh an organ from the mall that
the salesman claimed would teach him how to play, and
he would just sit there and watch the lights flash
(02:51):
as it would play itself, and drink a beer. It
was a I have a lot of memories of that.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
But the poem he wrote the poems when you said
when he was angry.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
That was my memory of them.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Yeah, and I sadly, you know, a couple of summers
ago when he passed away, we you know, we emptied
out the house, the house that I the only house
I'd ever lived in when you know, like my parents
bought when my mom was pregnant with me. And I
found a lot of his homework from when he taught
(03:30):
himself or basically learned computing, early on math homework and
stuff like that. But I didn't find any of the
notebooks that had any of the poems.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
So I suspect that he just got it off his
chest and then threw them away, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I just I just love these kinds of generational parallels.
It's almost like, you know, if you were on the couch,
I would say, you're like tweety two point zero, you're
like the do over, the frustrated musicians who's writing these
essentially lyrics, and then you're you. You've come along and
(04:12):
you've turned it into an art.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Well, yeah, I mean, uh, there's there are tons of
parallels that I mean. I mean it's disturbing as you
get older, how much you start to look like your parents,
and I look like exactly like my dad. And you know,
I think he suffered from a lot of the same
mood disorders that I've dealt with in my life. But
he clumsily, but somehow, you know, as far as employment goes,
(04:39):
and far as far as like not having worsening consequences
which would be typical of alcoholism, he managed to medicate
himself clumsily for his entire life, you know, for anxiety.
I'm sure he had anxiety and depression and and yet
and he did, instinctively seem to have turned to some
(05:00):
of the same things that have provided some solace for
me that weren't unhealthy, you know, like getting things off
his chest. And you know, I was indulged a lot,
perhaps because I was a do over.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
When did you write your first song? Do you remember.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
The first song I remember writing? And I'm pretty sure
that there were songs before this, But the first song
I remember writing was a song called your Little World,
and it was about a girl and her not having
enough room in her world for me.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
And how old are you when are you writing?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Maybe thirteen fourteen?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You don't remember it, do you?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Your little World's much too small? Oh, I ain't got
no room at all, So yeah, I was. I can
remember it, I could play it.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Actually. One of the weird things is is that.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
This local musician who went by the name Joe Cammel
band Joe Cammel and the Caucasians, they actually recorded that
song and made a single out of it.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Oh really it is?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
It exists?
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Yeah, yeah, because I was. I was this kid that
hung out with all, like at the record stores and
hung out at the you know, with around other musicians
when I could get near them, and I would always say,
I write songs. And this guy in this band, Joe Cambill, said, hey,
let me hear one of your songs. And I went
(06:34):
over to his house and I played him this song.
He said, oh, that's great, I'm going to record it.
We're gonna like go to record this song, and he did.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
It's fantastic. What when do you think you wrote your
first good song?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Well, I honestly don't think that that one was terrible.
I think it's you know, it's it's not great, but
it was it was good enough for somebody else to want,
you know, see some potential in it. The first song
I liked that I wrote was probably screen Door on
the first Uncle Tupelo record. You know, that's the first
(07:10):
one where I felt like I had said something that
felt true to me and that I didn't necessarily have
anybody else's song to convey that idea. I always look
at it like I'm trying to make songs and a
new song for me to sing that someone hasn't already written,
(07:30):
So that one was the first one that felt like that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
How old are you when you write that song?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Sixteen sixteen seventeen?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, so pretty. It's funny. I just I have heard
musicians of various kinds answer that question over the years,
and there's a whole set of them who like, you know,
ten years passed between the first songs they write and
the first one they like. Yeah, but you you have
a much less ambiblic relationship to your early songwriting.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
One of the things I feel like I've had some
shame of out in my life is how shamelessly I
love stuff that I make. And I think over time,
I've really made peace with it because I think that
that's like kind of beautiful and it's kind of one
of the things that's allowed me to grow. I don't
(08:26):
I don't tend to keep liking things that I've made.
I tend to get pretty dissatisfied with them over time.
But when initially, even when I figure out how to
play something on the guitar that someone else has done,
I feel like I invented it. I have this, like,
really you know, sort of delusional relationship with the joy
(08:47):
that I take from making something, and I think that's
that that really comes naturally. So a lot of times,
my favorite song is always the one I'm working on.
Almost invariably I was like, Wow, this is a this
is really great, and it dissipates over time.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
But I I've always felt like that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Does that make you a bad judge of your own songwriting?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I think it does, And that's part of the reason
that I've had to learn a lot of different ways
to get out of the get my ego out of
the way, like allow things to just state for a
lot longer, or put them away and forget them, forget
about them so that I can come back to them
with a little bit more objectivity. But in general, I
think it's just kind of the spirit of it is
(09:35):
what comes across a lot of times, and that that,
in a lot of cases is enough because you know,
not every song has to be the greatest song that's
ever been written.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
But it sure helps if you feel like it is
at the moment, in the moment.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
You know, you describe in this lovely book You've just done,
how to write one song. Yeah, you describe a series
of exercises songwriting exercises, and also describe a kind of
what a songwriting day should look like. And I was
curious before we go into that, how long did you
(10:12):
I mean, if that's the pattern of songwriting you practice, now,
how long have you been doing it that way? Did
you always have this kind of very structured way about
writing music.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
No, I think that I've as I've gotten older. I
think one of the things I've really had to learn
how to do is provide myself structure because I work
in a profession that doesn't have a lot of structure
outside of touring, which is extremely structured and routine. You know,
but being home has always been a little bit dangerous
(10:44):
for me in terms of my mental health. Though the
routine has been something I've had to learn and has
helped me quite a bit. That being said, I don't
remember a time where I haven't felt like a kind
of a nagging sense all day that I should be
(11:05):
making something, that I should be learning something, or I
should be reading something, or I should be listening to something,
and that tends to provide a lot of momentum to
my days. This ugly feeling that I'm avoiding almost all
the time is that I don't want to get to
the end of the day and feel like I didn't
(11:26):
learn anything, or didn't make something, or just didn't participate
in my life in the ways that I've found to
be the most enjoyable and helpful to me.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
You described this ideal songwriting day in the book. When
was the last ideal songwriting day you had and what
did it look like?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
It's been a while.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I think the ideal day, the last one I might
have had, would have been during the process of making
the album I just released, Love is the King, where
you know, around eight o'clock at night or something, I
would have started working on a song that I was
thinking about recording. The next day, I would have you know,
(12:13):
worked on it and played around with it, maybeate a
little demo of it on my phone until like maybe midnight,
gone to sleep, woke up. Probably would have finished the
lyrics early in the morning, because they tend to kind
of untangle themselves in my sleep a lot of times,
(12:34):
and I like to I like to write even before
I get out of bed, you know, where I feel
like I'm still sort of you know, the judgment side
of me is still sleeping or something, you know, And
I would have gotten up and come to the studio,
maybe worked on that song for a little while in
(12:54):
the studio, head lunch, maybe taken a nap, would have
gotten up from the nap, finished the song, maybe invited
my younger son over to sing a harmony vocal on it.
Common practice in that moment when I'm asking someone else
like Sammy to sing on something would be to really
focus on the lyrics and make sure they're where I
(13:16):
want them to be.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
So I would have done some revisions on.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
That, maybe until around five or six, and have a
rough mix to take home and have some dinner and
listen to records generally until I get excited about trying
to make something to beat something I just heard, some
sort of like trying to activate some competitive side of
my brain, and then start the whole process over with
(13:42):
maybe seeing if I could, you know, come up with
another song for the next day.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
So in your ideal world, is it a song from
start to just finish in that one day, or is
is it that you have little bits and pieces already
there that you're going back and finding and playing with.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I can do a song start to finish in one day,
but typically there are little pieces of raw material that
have been accumulated. Yeah. I think one of the things
I might do at eight o'clock, say, the beginning.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Of the day I just described, would be to go.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Through my phone and find a musical idea that I'm
excited by that I don't know, just catches me enough
unaware to start dreaming about it and start like fantasizing
about where it could go or what it could sound like.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Do you have your phone with you right now? Can
you play as a musical idea off the phone?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Let's see.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Well, this one sounds a little bit maybe a little
bit more finished than normal. It's the tunnel at the
(15:11):
end of the light.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So that is that? Has that little bit been turned
into a song yet or is it just waiting?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
It's waiting.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
I mean there's and then there's stuff that's maybe I
don't even know what this is, just some chords I
thought were pretty uh, but yeah, there's there. There are dozens,
(15:44):
or not dozens. There's probably literally hundreds of those things
in my phone. When they stack up a little bit,
I usually transfer some to the computer here at the loft,
so they're at least in a couple places.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, and now time for a coffee break with my
Broken Record co host, Malcolm Gladwell. This coffee break is
brought to you by the Starbucks Coffee Company.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
With me today, I.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Have the esteemed co host of this show, Malcolm Gladwell,
who I don't think I'm telling tales out of school
here is quite a coffee drinker, right.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I enjoy coffee and a coffee shop aficionado. I'm it's
more than just its experience. It's not just a coffee.
I spend enormous amounts of time in coffee shops.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Would you say you would rather drink coffee in a
coffee shop or would you rather take it to go?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Always in? Always in? Yeah, you know, I'm not a
guy who like takes it in, like sits in my
car and drinks my coffee my car. Otherwise you're you're
ruining the fun, which is settle in a nice table
sun streaming in the window, eaves dropping on conversations, and
then you you enjoy your cup of coffee. Okay, I'm like,
(16:58):
this is a little moment in my day where I
can reflect and relax and sit back with a cup
of coffee. Wow, there's a moment in the afternoon. That's
my coffee moment. No, morning, Coffee's an experience. That's the thing.
I have my experience in the afternoon. In that little
moment in the middle of the afternoon, when everything's quiet,
(17:20):
you get feeling a little bit like calm, and you know,
and I go and I sit in the coffee shop
and enjoy myself. Remember the first time going to a Starbucks, Malcolm,
I do?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I had all these friends who they were, all these
grow friends, I mean from Stanford. They all lived in
in San Francisco, and everybody came east for a wedding.
It's in Long Island. And I remember on the morning
of the wedding, Chris, who was the chief hipster of
(17:54):
the California crowd, said, this is like, I don't know
when this was mid nineties. Maybe Chris says to the
assembled multitudes, I hear there's a Starbucks finally out here.
We piled into cars that we drove somewhere like it
was somewhere in and you know, central Long Island. Remember this,
It was quite the journey and we were like, whoa,
(18:15):
it's like this thing called Starbucks had finally arrived in
Long Island because I guess it starts I mean clearly
starts in Seattle, right. Yeah, it's very exciting, remember that.
I remember it was like it was like a destination.
It's like, that's what we're doing on the morning of
the wedding, getting a cappuccino.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It remains, it remains thirty thirty years on, remains a
destination for me.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yes, yes, I'm sure that Starbucks is still there.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Absolutely leads me to want to ask sort of seasons aside,
are you a hot coffee guy or only hot colbrew?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Only hot? To me, the whole coffee on ice thing
is like, what are you doing? Wow, that's not We're
not here for that. On a on a ninety eight
degree humid day, I will go in and I'm having
and there's always a point of confusion because I'll go
into cofee, Im sall, I have a capuccino and there's
a pawn and they're expecting me to say iced, and
(19:12):
I say not iced. This is not I'm not doing it.
I'm not. I'm not. I'm not, like, you know, turning
my back on my coffee experience just because the weather's
on the warm side. No, No, the experience remains the same.
It doesn't matter where I am having my cappuccino and
it's not got ice in it, it's hot.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I gotta say, I'm running through my memories of going
to coffee with you, and I really can't place an
iced coffee in your hand at all. I think you're
telling the truth there that you really are not doing ices.
Before we end this coffee break, I gotta ask you, Malcolm. Yeah,
there's been a whole wave of oat milk drinkers of late.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Not doing it almond milk. I am aware and grateful
for the option, and I don't look down anyone who
wants to go to the oat milk route. I am
an unwavering traditionalist. I have a cappuccino that is hot
with whole milk. I don't, I don't. I never wave
(20:09):
from that. My thing is, you know, I'm very very
you know. My whole thing on now, I've only only
drunk five liquids. I was gonna be yeah right, it's
red wine, it's water, it's espresso based beverages, it's milk,
and it's tea. That's it. And does this stand still
to this day? Yeah? Never waver never waver.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
All right, man, Well, thanks for the coffee break, Malcolm,
all right, justin all right. I know Malcolm said he
doesn't like ice drinks, but I happen to love him.
And so after we talked, I went down to my
local Starbucks here in Long Beach to try their ice
or Chotta oat milk shaken espresso. And this drink is incredible.
It's a blonde espresso combined with or chata syrup that
delivers a fusion of cinnamon, vanilla, and rice flavors, shaking
(20:52):
together with ice and topped with oat milk. I'm a
person who likes to explore the Starbucks menu. I'll go
up and down that thing whenever I'm at Starbucks. But
there are a lot of people and I can be
this way too that like the Staples. If you're one
of those people, this drink still retains that wonderful coffee flavor,
but on the back end chases it with this wonderful
(21:13):
milky cinnamony or Chota flavor as well, and it has something,
in my opinion for everyone. Your eyes for Shota oat
milkshake and espresso is ready at Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
So I'm investinated by this process. How long might some
a little bit linger on your phone or in your
archive before you use it? Is there stuff? And if
we went into the you said sometimes you download them
on at the loft. How far back would we have
stuff there from ten years ago you've never used?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, I mean probably there are.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
I used to do it on cassettes and basically I
used to just leave a cassette in a dictaphone old
style like what you would have Steno would have used,
or someone in an you know, secretary pool, and I
would just leave it on the coffee table and until
it filled up, and then I'd put another cassette in.
(22:06):
And there's there are dozens of those cassettes on the
Suki ray album that I made under the name Tweetye.
There's a song on there that I finished after fourteen years.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I think what song was it. It's called I'll Sing It.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Was there a little snippet of it that was the
original snippet.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
It's actually in the track I actually just played over
the cassette version. Yeah, yeah, And then I think that
ended up on the Summer Teeth box set that we
just put out because it was written around the same
time as Summer Teeth.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, when you go back and find a little snippet
like that, do you remember when you created the snippet
or is that gone?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
It depends. A lot of times I don't remember at all.
I have no recollection at all of a lot of
times I don't even remember the tuning, and I have
to like sit and figure out because I use a
lot of different tunings, and I really hate it when
I don't bother to tune the guitar to a standard
pitch because then it makes it even harder to figure
(23:08):
out what tuning I'm in and stuff like that. So
a lot of times it's it's it's completely gone wherever
it happened, which is kind of I love it when
that happens, even though it can be frustrating trying to
relearn it.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
But then there are times.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Where I absolutely have a distinct memory of where I
was and what was happening. And a lot of times
that's because there are other ambient elements that it made
their way onto the recording. I like, say, backstage and
somebody in Wilco walks through and says something, and I
(23:44):
can viscerally feel that that room and I'll know even
what city it was. In a lot of cases, sometimes
when I'm doing it in hotel rooms in Europe and
you have the windows open. Whenever we're fortunate enough to
find a hotel that has windows that open, you hear
like people leading on at the cafes or something like that.
(24:05):
That's those are always really kind of special recordings. It
a lot of times mean a lot to me, even
without them being finished.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah. We did an interview with Nora Jones while back
now and she was talking about how she did her
song Wintertime with You, and she was talking about this
this very process that she had some scraps, a little
bits and pieces, and you had bits and pieces and
(24:34):
you kind of put it together to create a really
beautiful song. Can you can you? Because of walk us
through that little case study of this time with a
twist with another person involved, but doing it, seems like
both of you were doing doing the work of creativity
in the same way. Is that true?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
I think that well, first of all, Norah Jones doesn't
need me to help her write a song, for sure,
but we admire each other, so there's a there's already
a kind of a base level of camaraderie or something,
you know, but I haven't found many people that I've
worked with to have it just wildly different approaches to it.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Everybody seems to have.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Sort of the core process is sort of similar. You
basically start with something that is nothing, you know, that
feels but feels like it could be something, and then
you basically surrender this idea that you can't you can't
do that, you can't make something out of nothing, and
(25:42):
you do it. And it's really the most important part
is just letting go of the idea that it can't happen.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I think, and with someone else.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
It requires a lot of waiting until you both have
you know, both people have to feel comfortable and supported
enough and trusting enough to kind of throw out ideas
until you know, a light bulb goes off in two
heads at once. It's a little bit more full proof
in a way because you have that consensus of universality
(26:13):
for two people as opposed to like just trying to
imagine that everybody will like something you like.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
We'll be right back with more from Jeff Tweety. After
the break, We're back with more of Malcolm's conversation with
Jeff Tweety.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
You've done an unusual amount of collaboration with other artists
you write for, maybe Staples. You did those beautiful Mermaid
Avenue albums with Billy Bragg that I are among my favorites.
When you're writing with another person in mind, does it
change the way you write a song?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, I think it does.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
I honestly think that that is the thing that I
am most comfortable doing. I think it's the thing I
truly aspire to do more than almost any other thing
that I get to do.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I always pick myself.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Being a person that would write songs for other people
to sing, and Uncle Tupelo. I wanted my songs to
be sung by Jay because he had this magnificent, like rich,
authoritative voice, and I had this squeaky, you know voice
that I didn't feel like was quite my own, even
(27:30):
at the time, I was struggling to find it. As
much as I felt great when I sang, I just
loved the idea of writing the song more than the
idea of singing it. And I still think that that's
where my most natural abilities lie, is in helping somebody
with another with their song, like working with Nora or
(27:52):
finding something for someone to sing like Mavis. I don't
look at it as like I'm putting words in her mouth.
I feel like I'm just kind of helping find something
that she feels comfortable singing that makes sense for her
to sing. Same thing with the Woody Guthrie lyrics. That
was even more along the lines of what I feel
(28:14):
I have the strongest sense about as being something that
comes naturally to me, because those lyrics were sacrosanct. You know,
they're like you know, you're not You're not gonna mess
with them.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
They're there.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
You don't even need to worry about whether or not
they're good enough. They're important for people that don't know.
There were all these lyrics that Woody Guthrie left behind
that the music was never documented or he never really
made any music for. There was all these archival lyrics
and writing that we took and made songs out of,
and with those I would just sit and read them
(28:46):
over and over and over again until the meter would
emerge and then next there would be a melody that
would emerge, and in a lot of cases with Woody
Guthrie lyrics, you read it and all of a sudden,
a Carter Family song emerges, because that's what he was
actually writing his lyrics to was someone else's song. I
did the same thing with a bunch of lyrics for
(29:07):
Bob Dylan that never came out because I was I
wasn't able to be a part of that process for
that record that they did a couple of years ago,
where they had a bunch of lyrics that Dylan had written.
It's like Elvis Costello is a part of it, and
some of the Mumfords and mumfort But anyway, t Bone
had asked me if I could do it, and I
(29:28):
got all these lyrics, and then my wife started treatment
for cancer, so I couldn't go to LA for the
amount of time that they wanted me to. But I
did the same thing with those lyrics. I wrote them,
I wrote and recorded a whole record in a weekend.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Like, did you find it sort of freeing to not
have to do it in your own with you with
your own voice in mind? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (29:50):
I think that I just struggle with allowing myself to
comment on certain things that I don't feel like I
have the authoritative weight to weigh in on, for for
in terms of like mayvs Or something like that, or
the things that I feel like Mayvas has a voice
(30:11):
of righteousness of some you know, of some broader scope
in historical importance and place.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
You know.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
There's just a way to it that I feel very
privileged to have been able to write for. But a
lot of those things are are not going to make
as much sense coming out of my mouth. It just
doesn't feel right for a lot of you know, social reasons.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think, what's the right word to describe your attitude
towards your own voice? Are you self conscious about it?
Speaker 4 (30:50):
No?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I mean that about Tupelo and how you preferred if No.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
I feel like I've gotten way better as a singer,
and I've worked really hard to get better over a
lot of time. And I actually I enjoy my voice,
my singing voice quite a bit. I actually do like
listening to myself singing now when I find things that
I want to sing a lot of cases, i feel
like I'm the only person that could sing it the
way I want to hear it. But that doesn't mean
(31:18):
that I'm oblivious to the fact that my voice isn't
technically great in the you know, by the normal criteria
of American idol or the voice or you know, whatever,
whatever you know.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
But all my favorite singers are like that.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Almost all my favorite singers have non traditional voices that
have become communicative.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
You know.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
It's like it's like where they trade virtuosity or technique
or whatever for sincerity or sentiment and conviction. And I
feel like I found that in my voice over time,
and I'm very, very proud of the idea that I
still work at getting better and try and sing in tune,
(32:01):
you know. But I'm more I'm much more concerned with
making the words feel the way I want them to feel.
Speaking voice, on the other hand, is awful. I cannot.
I will never listen to the book that I just
read or this interview. I might listen to you do
(32:24):
another interview with someone else.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So on this point in the book, you talk about stealing,
but you're being a little bit mischievous because you don't
really be in stealing, but you're talking about being open
to influence essentially. So give me an example of another
artist whose work you find lots of stuff to borrow
(32:47):
from and be inspired by. And I'm just curious, does
it come from everywhere? Are there predictable places where you
go to find ideas well?
Speaker 4 (32:56):
The thing I'm describing in the book is just based
on this belief that you can't really copyright a group
of chords. What I'm describing in the book is basically
me saying, well, I'm gonna look for a song that
I think has a bunch of cool chords in it,
and I'm gonna learn how to play it, and then
I'm gonna take it and make it into something that
(33:18):
no one would hear that song in it anymore. But
it's basically like just when you're a little bit stuck,
just realizing that the world is full of these, you know,
sort of naturally occurring shapes that you can appropriate. You know,
I don't look at them as being particularly ownable by anybody,
(33:39):
and especially if I don't you know, sing the same
type of song or put the same type of melody
over it, or even have the same rhythm or you know,
there are many many ways to describe it. But it's
such a it's such a liberating thing to do to
just go, oh, I'll just take these chords and and
and start there because I haven't been able to come
up with anything all day. That being said, there are
(34:03):
just tons and tons of artists, new and old, every
day of my life that I encounter, and to me,
you have to work to not encounter art that inspires you,
I think, and I think that that does overwhelm people.
I think sometimes some people do get to a certain
point where they want to hide from influence or hide
(34:24):
from the feeling that they're being challenged by other artists.
But I look at it like most of the time
I get that way too. I can feel overwhelmed sometimes,
but more often than not, I feel really invigorated by
the fact that if I go looking, it won't take
me long at all to find something that shows me
(34:47):
where the bar is that I should be aiming for.
Speaker 6 (34:50):
We'll be right back with more from Jeff Tweety after
the break.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
What's an example of a song you listened to recently
that triggered all kinds of reactions and inspirations in you?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
You know, Kate.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
I think Kate Lebon writes a lot to music that
makes me feel that way. She's just the first person
that popped into my mind. She she's an artist that
has this undeniable kate leabondness about what she does, you know,
like we're and that's that's that's hard to find, you know.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
I think there's she has a very specific.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
Angle that she comes at what she does, and and
nobody else knows that precise angle. I think the song
Meet the Man I wanted to Meet the Man. I
think that's the name of it. So I think it's
the last song on her most recent record. It has
all of these twists and turns that are unpredictable, and
I don't know, when you.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Listen to that song, can you turn off the part
of your brain that wants to to kind of learn
from it, use it, employ it in some way and
just enjoy it or do you Is it is that
part of the brain always on?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Well, that is how I enjoy it. I think that.
I think that is part of how I enjoy it.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
I I think I enjoy it first and foremost the
way I have enjoyed music since I was a little kid,
before I played any music or wrote any music. I
am just attracted to sound and excited by records. And
I don't think that that's any different, but I don't
feel burdened by the knowledge that I have now, and
(36:27):
I think it just adds this insight, like, oh wow,
I can kind of tell what reaverb is going on there.
But that being said, the things that I tend to
enjoy the most are the things.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
That I have zero idea how they came to be.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Those are the things I listen to, you know, like
have more repeated listenings, tend to be like some hip
hop records and things that are outside of my skill set,
and you know, and then then there are times where
I crave comfort food, where I just want to hear
a simple country song played on an acoustic guitar, and
(37:05):
I have a very very firm grasp on how that
comes to be, but it doesn't diminish its importance in
my life.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
You know, is there an artist, a contemporary of yours
whose career you'd have loved to have?
Speaker 5 (37:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I honestly, I've thought about that a lot.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
I have moments where I have a professional jealousy. I
think it'd be impossible not to have these moments, especially
if you're somewhat competitive like I am. I think it's like,
why is everybody righting about this guy now, like you know,
like that, like I'm not ashamed to admit I have,
like you know, it's it's not the end of the
(37:42):
world to admit you have petty feelings, you know. But
but honestly, I don't think so, because when I take
a step back, the prevailing emotion is gratitude. I mean,
it wouldn't This is nothing like I would have been
ever been able to imagine for myself, you know, thirty
years in from my first time probably playing on a
(38:05):
stage or you know, getting in front of people.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
Right back with more from Jeff Tweety, we're back with
the rest of Malcolm's conversation with Jeff Tweety.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
It would be really fun if we put together a
bunch of the stuff we've been talking about in a song,
Like is there a song that you could break down,
play and break down for us? Will you talk about
all the little pieces that brought it together, how the
song was created, the little bits of influence if you
(38:39):
remember them. Is there one that's that fresh in your
memory that you could do that a little mini masterclass.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Let me think I have a guitar here, so that's
the g chord I always play when I pick up
a guitar. It's an inadvertence.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
You're the invariant g, the tweety G.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
It's pretty same.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
It's my grounding. Well, there's a song on the new
record called Opaline where I was writing at this summer
(39:26):
or this spring, when there was so much going on
in the world, and our relationships with our police departments
were being investigated and talked about a lot. So I'm
not a person that's ever had that feeling. I've never
really been a fan of police because I've always felt
(39:47):
like police had a lot more to do with their mentality,
had a lot more to do with the people that
made fun of me and school and were more jockey
and it's just a general atmosphere around police that I've
not enjoyed. But I've not had this experience that a
lot of minorities have had with police in this country.
(40:09):
I'm aware of that, but I was trying to put
myself into that that headspace of living with that fear.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
So those were those were the lyrics.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
That I was playing around with. It's like I hear
the police outside my window. I can hear them talking
on the radios and uh, oh, you poorlice outside my window.
How can hear.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Them talk in all the radios.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
I keep my head, order my pillow, pray that they
go on leave me alone. So that's like just one
(41:08):
little chunk of this song that was a melody that
I had without any words.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Did you write that chunk first?
Speaker 4 (41:17):
Yea, I did, And then I had a piece that
was like, oh, you know, I didn't really have any lyrics,
so I was I We had a golden orb weave
spider weaver spider in our garden this spring that I
(41:40):
named Opaline for some reason, just because it just seemed
like a cool name. I had an aunt opal and
so I just started singing.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
To her, Oh, oh, made believe that she still love me?
Speaker 4 (42:02):
Oh believe. It's how to see reality.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I need got no love it all.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
So that's just writing a country song that's just trying
to figure out a way to get to the line.
Reality is hard to see when you've got no love
at all. Because one of the things that has been
on my mind.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
A lot these last few years.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Or you know, for a while now, is how do
you get to the point where reality doesn't matter? And
it obviously is very negotiable for a lot of people
in our information climate that we can shop for, a
reality that we trust and believe, and there isn't a
shared consensus a lot of times, which is really maddening
(43:01):
and strange to witness. We don't even have the same
agreed upon fictions anymore, you know, Like it's it's really troubling.
And my theory is that must be a lot easier
to do when people have been isolated from a lot
of their feelings of being cared for or having affection
(43:25):
and warmth in their life.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
So you have in this song, you have that opening
image of the kid in bed head under the pillow
and hearing the cops outside and worrying, and then you
have opening yeah, and then you also have other interesting
element is it's very plainly a country song. But we're
(43:49):
not in country territory.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Are we.
Speaker 4 (43:53):
Well, I mean, country territory is pretty pretty vast in
my opinions. To me, where country music fails is when
it tries to adhere to the tropes of country music
and becomes like civil war re enactment or something. It's
you know, it's not it's not about what's happening. And
(44:15):
this is this is a weird song for me to pick,
but I'm gonna stick with it now because we're in it.
But you know, this is this is like a This
is a little bit of a pistiche to where I
got all of these elements to make sense to me
and feel good to me. There's a story that runs
through it that feels apprehendible to me, you know. So
(44:36):
I had that, and that's probably what I put in
my phone first, aside from the initial chord progression that
I might have hummed over. That was like the first
document of this song. And then I was out driving
my car on a toll road right after that, and
(44:56):
there was a hearse on a toll road outside Chicago,
and this literally literally happened, and I went through a
toll next to a hearse And as I went through
the toll, I looked back and the hearse was stuck
at the toll like it didn't have any money or whatever.
But as I kept driving, I kept looking in the
(45:17):
rear view mirror and it was it just kept not
being let through the toll, and I just felt like
I'd been hit over the head with one of the
most striking metaphors I'd ever encountered in the real world,
you know, Like what is you know what is purgatory?
I don't know, Like I was just just one of
(45:38):
the craziest things.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
And so.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
I actually wrote this in the car into my phone
of just voice memo into my phone. There's nothing worse
then a hearse drive and slow out on the toll way.
(46:03):
Stop being at the tolls, No change, no easy pass,
what a way to go? There's nothing words then a
heart's driving slow?
Speaker 5 (46:28):
Oh you know.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
Then you get back into the forest.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Do why wait, don't question, But you had the heart
experience and you have these two little bits that you've
already done. Why do you think the hearst experience belongs
to this song or not any number of other things
that you have stashed away for future reference. How do
you know it belongs here?
Speaker 3 (46:52):
It's just what was in my mind.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
So I don't really think of things as accidents that
I need to really investigate. And it just it sang
well to these this melody before I could even make
a decision and about where it should go, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
What I mean.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
It's like that song was already in my mind. I'd
been working on it. So those are the those are
the patterns that you walk around with when you have
a song in your head. And that's one of the
reasons I enjoy having a song on my head because
then everything that happens to me is d you know,
like everything fits in that melody. It makes it makes
(47:35):
some order out of the world. I suppose you know.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
So those lyrics that you just sang for me, is
that exactly as you composed them in the car? Or
would you fiddle with them later?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
No, that's exactly as I composed them in the car.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
And did you compose them in the car like like
off the cuff or did you were you playing within
your mind before you recording.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I played with it in my mind.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
A little bit before I decided that I should document
it before I get home.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Yeah, you know. And again I'm sorry. Now I'm total
I can't get over theat this so much fun. Do
you pull over or do you keep driving and you're
singing into your phone?
Speaker 4 (48:13):
Well, I mean, not to get too technical, but I
pressed a button on my phone that allowed me to
record it without having to take my eyes off the road.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
No, I didn't mean I was suggesting you were an
unsafe driver, but I was suggesting, like, does it I
was imagined there was a scenario where you're so caught
up in this that you're like, I gotta focus and
you're like pull into the you know, the I Hop
parking lot, and but no, no, you're just you're just
driving merrily down the road, singing us into your phone.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I love also that you know, ninety nine percent of
humanity seize the hers. I doesn't see the hers or
sees the hears and doesn't immediately understand the the perfection
of that metaphor. Well, I feel like you're attuned you
you are attuned to these things.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
Thank you. I think we all should be.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
I mean, we're like we're walking around and that there's
no there's no failed experiment. And if you're paying attention
to the world, I think we get tired. I think
we get overwhelmed, like I was saying before, with like
inspiration or influence and things like that. And you know,
we're not always receptive and we're not always we don't
always have.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
The energy or.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
A lot of us have a lot of concerns all
the time about a lot of other things that would
require more mental energy than we have, and that tends
to crowd out a lot of you know, paying attention
to the strangeness of the world or the you know.
I don't feel like I'm doing anything super unique in
that regard. I just think that I am aware that
(49:48):
my brain wants to make sense of stuff, and I
give it an opportunity to make sense of stuff, you know,
or actively participate in the fact that it does that.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
I think all of our brains do that.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
All of our brains would much prefer to find some
reason for something to be the way it is, then
for to try and accept and understand ambiguity and randomness
and and things like that.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
So we're we're.
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Designed to do that, and then sometimes it hits you
over the head because it is just too perfect and beautiful,
like a hearse being stuck at a toll booth plassa.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Well, you're not done, We're not done. Keep going.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
Well the thing, you know, So there's another verse and
verse verse of chorus versus a chorus.
Speaker 3 (50:39):
And then.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
By that time I think I had already recorded it,
and I had recorded the song without any lyrics. I
didn't sing it, I just was just and then I
envisioned this like long outro guitar solo. So I needed
(51:02):
another verse and I needed something that was going to
set up a long guitar solo into a chorus, And
that was actually the hardest part, because I wanted something
that sort of tied those two pieces together a little bit,
at least ambiently somehow.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
So I came up.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
I came up with a bunch of things that I
actually changed over time, and I can't remember all the
different changes because I only know.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
I only remember what I ended up on. But it was.
Speaker 4 (51:38):
Uh, I'd like to find out while she had to
go my heart once what a heart can't control. So
(51:59):
I hang in the air as the light gets cold,
and I heard in his shadows welcome home. And then
it goes into the solo there. But to me it
(52:22):
was kind of like I had become the guy that
was hiding from the cops that got killed, They got
murdered by cops, that ended up on the highway in
a hearse, not having the change even the money to
go through a toll, you know, comically dark even in
(52:43):
my demise, still completely just devoid of any luck whatsoever,
you know, which is a country trope in a way,
you know, just like the beautiful Loser, but still but
still singing. This is a theme on the record actually
is still singing from beyond the grave to this woman
(53:07):
who basically took a took everything away in his opinion
or his feeling, but knowing basically saying, I'm I'm still
going to be in that air that you breathe.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
I'm still going to be.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
I can't have what I want, but I can still
imagine that you are going to think about me from
time to time. And it's a it's a sad, pathetic
notion that a lot of a lot of weak men
have and I've had in my life.
Speaker 3 (53:36):
And and is that you'll miss me.
Speaker 4 (53:38):
When I'm gone, And and uh, I think it's more
often than not wishful thinking.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Yeah, you to finish the song for us.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Oh well, it's just one more chorus.
Speaker 5 (53:55):
It's so beautiful, thank you, Oh believe.
Speaker 4 (54:06):
May believe that she's de love me. Oh it's hard,
ser really.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
When you got no love it all?
Speaker 2 (54:28):
I love that. Thank you, well, thank you, Jeff. I
think that's a lovely way to wrap things up.
Speaker 3 (54:36):
Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
I hope you enjoyed that catalog episode of Broken Record.
Here's some of our favorite Jeff Tweety songs. Hit the
link to the playlist in the episode description and be
sure to check out our video episodes at YouTube dot
com slash broken Record Podcast, and be sure to follow
us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can
follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is
produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from
(55:04):
Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Taliday.
Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you
love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to
Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers
callous content and ad free listening for four ninety nine
a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions,
(55:27):
and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's
back any beats.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
I'm justin Richmond.
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