June 3, 2025 • 52 mins
Shirley Manson rose to '90s fame as the magnetic front woman of Garbage, but she was already a seasoned singer when guitarist Steve Marker spotted her in a music video for her previous band, Angelfish. She joined the Garbage in 1994. The band was made up of Steve Marker and producers Duke Erikson and Butch Vig—renowned for his work with Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins.
Nearly 30 years and over 17 million albums later, Garbage is preparing to release their eighth studio album, Let All That We Imagine Be The Light. Shirley’s voice remains as sharp and compelling as ever.
On today’s episode, Leah Rose sits down with Shirley Manson to discuss how an unexpected piece of advice from an acting coach during her time on the Fox sci-fi series Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles continues to shape her creative process. Shirley also opens up about the challenges of communicating with her bandmates—and shares a hilarious story about meeting one of her musical heroes, Patti Smith—only to discover she had green curry smeared across her face.
You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite songs from Shirley Manson & Garbage HERE.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Hey, this is Justin Richmond from the Broken Record podcast.
Join me this June for a live taping of Broken
Record at the Tribeca Festival. We're all bee in conversation
with Infinity Song, a New York based soft rock band
comprised of four siblings who will also be doing a
couple of songs for us. You'll hear the artist and
a career spanning conversation about their inspirations and dynamic styles.
(00:39):
We'll be at the SVA Theater on June twelve at
eight thirty pm. Defund tickets, wos A tribecafilm dot com
slash Broken Record all lowercase. That's tribecafilm dot com slash
Broken Record. Hope to see there. Shirley Manson, the iconic
Scottish singer songwriter, rose to eight girl status in the
nineties as a fierce and magnetic frontwoman of Garbage. Though
(01:02):
her tenure with the band now spans over three decades,
Shirley was already a season lead singer when she joined
in nineteen ninety six. She was invited to audition for
Garbage after guitarist Steve Marker spotted her in a music
video for her previous band Angelfish. Today, Garbage is sold
over seventeen million albums worldwide, with all original members still
(01:22):
going strong. The band is now preparing to release their
eighth studio album, Let All That We Imagine Be the Light,
and Shirley's unmistakable voice remains as sharp and compelling as ever.
On today's episode, Lee Rose sits down with Shirley Manson
to discussed how an unexpected piece of advice from an
acting coach during her time on the Fox sci fi
series Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles continues to shape her
(01:45):
creative process. Shirley also opens up about the challenges of
communicating with her bandmates and shares a hilarious story about
meeting one of her musical heroes, Patti Smith. This is
broken record, real musicians, real conversations. This episode is brought
to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to meet challenges
(02:08):
head on so you and explore with confidence. Adventure Seekers
and risk takers can explore the full Defender lineup at
land ROVERUSA dot com. Here's Leah Rose with Shirley Manson.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I've been watching and listening to a lot of interviews
that you've done over the years. And I heard you
talking about working with an acting coach, maybe after working
on Terminator, and you learned some really interesting thing or
got some really interesting insight from the acting coach. Can
you remember what she told you and how that sort
(02:42):
of influenced you at the time.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I studied under an acting coach called Sharon Chatton in
Los Angeles, and she absolutely changed my whole life and
my relationship to my music, to my work, I guess
for one of a better term, and I think about
her almost every single day.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Yeah, she taught me so much about not just being
an art but being a human and being trying to
be in the moment, which is such a profound gift
if you are able to teach yourself to live in
the moment and not worry about tomorrow or yesterday. And
up until meeting her, I was much more fearful, I guess,
(03:26):
of trying to be creative, and then she just taught
me how to sort of sink into it and play
instead of plan, and that was profound. That's just one
of the very many things she taught me. But that
was a real kicker for me, is how to be
in the moment of creation and not be rigid, but
(03:48):
to be really fluid and just go with whatever is
coming out and investigate that and chase that rabbit and
not try and force something that perhaps was preordained.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Do you remember the first project, creative project that you
applied her advice to and did that turn out differently
for you?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
My band Garbage had been on a long hiatus for
a lot of different reasons. But we had been dropped
by Entrascope Records, and my mother had been diagnosed with
a very extreme and aggressive form of dementia called Pick's disease,
which took her out of the game in like eighteen months.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
And then two of my really close girlfriends, one lost
her young husband and the other lost her six year
old son. And it was all during this hiatus that
I was on from the band, and that took up
a lot of my time and energy. But I also,
as you said rightly pointed out, I was on the
(04:49):
Sarah Connor Chronicles on the Fox Networks. It was a
big show, a big TV show. And then I started
to study with Sharon and then I got back with
the band I think in about twenty ten, and we
started work on Not Your kind of People, which was
our fifth studio record, and so I started plowing it.
(05:09):
Then the things I'd learned over that course of time
in my life, which was really a very difficult and
tumultuous time, And yeah, I've just gotten better at adhering
to the lessons Sharon taught me as time has passed.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Is there anything specific you can point to on the
new album that maybe is a result from that advice
from her?
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Well, I immediately think of have We Met the Void? Which
was I was in the studio with Duke, the guitarist
in Garbage. It was just the two of us, and
we had been talking about a book he was reading
about witchcraft, and we sort of were chuckling together, and
I was like, let's try and write a song about that.
You know, about how women were destroyed by because they
(05:56):
were powerful, or they were intelligent, or they were intuitive.
They were put to death for all these reasons. That's
what I want to write about. And I went, I
hopped into the vocal booth and he played this particular
piece of music that he had written with the band,
and I was determined I was going to write about
witchcraft or witches, and instead I heard the first few
(06:21):
bars of the music, and I just had a picture
of myself when I was a young woman in my
early twenties. It was a situation that had happened in
real life, and I just sort of swung into it,
and this bizarre story that had occurred to me in
my life came out of nowhere. I hadn't even thought
about it in years. And that's kind of what I
(06:43):
mean of like just having a thread of an idea
and then it just turning left and be willing to
follow it, even though that wasn't my intention. It was
like I just realized I saw the thread, I grabbed it,
and I just followed the thread into the void. And
so that would be one of that would be a
(07:04):
really like sort of an example of what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that song,
and I was going to ask you how did you
get in the headspace to record that, because it's like
you're growling and it's so it's so raw and feels
a little bit primal and sinister.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Well, it is sinister. It's definitely sinister. And it was
a very dark experience. You know, when you find out
you know your partner is having another and entirely different
relationship outside of the one that you thought you had.
And so, yeah, that song.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Is very dark. I love it.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
I love it too. It's oh, I love it too.
And it feels so personal, you know that. And it's
funny this sort of joy you experience when you can
throw in really personal things into a lyric, you know,
being able to name my city that felt like radical
to me, you know. And I love the line, have
(08:03):
you motherfuckers been seeing each other? You know? Something I've
said at the time, And it's something that you know,
I've said quite a few times since, you know, And
I think anyone who's ever been cheated on can really
relate to that line, you know, that moment when you're like,
hold on a minute, something crazy is happening here, and
it's not really what I expected to happen to me today,
(08:28):
you know, totally. Yeah, it's such a horrible feeling, you know,
it's just a horrible, horrible feeling.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Isn't it awful that you can still feel that too
so many years later?
Speaker 4 (08:39):
But isn't it also wonderful, you know, to be still
in contact with those really raw feelings of your youth
when you were an entirely different person and you didn't
know what you do now. I think there's something really
glorious about that and exciting. You know, It's like, ah,
I remember her. I can remember what I was wearing.
I can remember you know how I wore my hair
(09:00):
and my makeup, and you know the bag I used
to use. And it's like a real sort of Proustian
moment right of the Madeline. It's like, ah, I like
being able to touch all my ghosts totally.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Do you ever wonder if you miss remember things? Like
if you were to actually go back and see yourself
or just be sort of like an eyewitness to your
early life, what if it's totally different. I think about
that all the time.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I know for a fact everything will be different. You know.
I know that our memories are so flawed, but I
do believe that you sort of remember the important parts
of the storyline. You know, you get it. There was
you know, a deceit that you know and you were furious,
and so you remember.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
The big picture.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Yeah, the details not so much, although again in this song,
I remember these crazy details because my partner lived opposite
Goudy Cathedral in Barcelona, and I can remember standing looking
at this young woman thinking, oh my god, you're having
an affair with my boyfriend, and hearing the bells of
(10:09):
the cathedral chime.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
You know what I mean. It was so weird. It
was so weird.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
But then again, maybe somebody'll say, yea, Guidi's bell stopped
working one hundred years ago, so maybe I'm completely tripping
as well. But yeah, I guess that's part of the
fun of memory. You survived it, and the details probably
don't matter that much.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yes, what is the dynamic like when you're in the
studio with Duke and you're entering this really private, intense moment.
I know, maybe you were in a vocal booth by yourself,
but do you feel comfortable enough where you can just
totally go there with him there?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
I mean I feel comfortable with the whole band, you know,
the three of them, Steve, Butch and Duke. I used
to feel very self conscious when I went into the
vocal booth, and I was not happy particularly, I felt
very isolated and judged. And now again going back to
Shan Chattan and my acting teacher, she taught me how
(11:13):
to switch that all off. She was like, you're not
there to serve anybody.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
You're there to.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Serve your creative instinct. Whereas when I first joined the band,
because I joined the band under strange circumstances, you know,
Butch was, you know, one of the premier producers in
America in the nineties, and he had a lot of weight,
and there was so much respect, and he had this
(11:38):
power that I felt that I did not have. And
I also, you know, really wanted the band to be
proud of me. They had selected me to do this job.
I wanted to do the very, very best job I
could do, and as a result, I think, looking back,
as a young woman trying to prove herself, it was
difficult and I didn't necessarily enjoy the creative aspect of it.
(12:03):
I found it taxing, and as I said, I felt
like I was sort of being judged, and so so
a lot of the joy of creativity that I experience
now I was kind of robbed from me, not through
anybody else's fault, but my own. I hastened to add,
this was all imagined in my own mind. But now
I have no self consciousness at all. I don't care
(12:25):
if I make mistakes or if I'm singing out of
tune as long as I've sort of getting the idea across,
you know, Whereas back in the day, I'd really freak
out if I didn't hit a note, or I would
be scared to try something vocally that I didn't know
I could absolutely pull off with a plum. I didn't
want to fail in front of them, and so I didn't.
(12:46):
And now I'm like, I'm willing to try anything, and
if they like it, they like it. If they don't,
then if as long as I like it, I feel good.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
What is the creative dynamic within the band? Like, now,
how do the songs come together? Is it usually the
guys go off and make tracks on their own and
then bring you in and then you write to the track,
or how do the songs get made?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Well?
Speaker 4 (13:10):
This record was very different from any other record we've
ever made because I had two hip surgeries, two hip replacements,
both at the beginning of the making of this record
and at the very end the dovetail of making this record,
I had another hip placement and no different hip. Oh yeah,
I'm fully bionic. It's super hot. I'm so Lindsey Wagner.
(13:35):
But as a result of being mechanically broken, I spent
a lot of time in bed, and I had a
lot of brain fog because I was on a lot
pain killers, and I didn't want to go into the studio.
I didn't feel I felt very vulnerable, and I was
arguably a little depressed. But I knew that if we
wasted too much time not making our next record, it
(13:57):
would be a decade until we got another record out.
And I was determined that wouldn't be the case. And
so I urged the band to go and work without me,
which is a first. Like usually we do everything together.
It were allway in the same room pretty much, you know,
and in this case, they went into Butcher's home studio
and they would send me musical ideas as it came
(14:18):
to them, and then I would work, you know, on
my belodies or my lyrics or whatnot by myself, and
that I've never done that, and it was strange, and
I do think it was great for me in one regard,
but it also unfortunately underscored for me how much of
an outsider I remain in Garbage in that, you know,
(14:41):
there are three men of the same age, pretty much
come from the same part of the country. They love
each other very much, and they're really tight. And the
three of them are you know, quite quiet in a
funny way and a little uncommunicative, you know, that very
sort of stiff upper Midwestern lip that you can encounter
(15:05):
a lot. So they don't really communicate with me creatively,
which I find as I get older harder and harder
to navigate. When I was young, I'd put in a
lot of energy into facilitating communication within the band, and
then I just got well, then I got broken. When
(15:27):
you can't walk, it's like, fuck everything, Fuck everyone. I'm
just trying to literally learn how to get up out
of a seat and walk across the room. And I
didn't have any energy to spend on anybody else or
anything else, and as a result, there was very little communication.
And I find that hard because I'm such a communicative person.
(15:48):
I gasp for contact and connection. And I feel like
me and the boys are I mean, we love each other.
We've got a great dynamic. If you came into a room,
you'd be like, oh, they're all great. They really get
along and we do and it's lovely, but creatively that
it feels to me like there's quite gulf now in
(16:10):
a funny way between us, which hopefully at some point
we can manage, you know better. I'm certainly more robust
now than I was three years ago, you know, when
I started upon this sort of physical period of disintegration
and rehabilitation.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, so are you health wise? Are you doing better now?
Where now are?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Be warned, she's back.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
But yeah, it was very hard. You know.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
It's really changed the way I look at the world
and look at other people, and it's sort of forced
me to really try and tap into my compassion, which
I I've never been famous for my compassion. And now
I realize how much people are dealing with privately. And
I now walk down the street and I can see
(17:02):
people's bodies move a certain way and I'm like, Oh,
they're going to need a hit replacement, or oh their
knees fucked, or oh my god, you know this person
doesn't look well. I mean, it's just it's horrible. It's
a horrible, like sort of education I got that I
wish I hadn't. But at the same time, it's also
been quite magical in a funny way. It's taught me
(17:23):
to be more patient with my body. It's taught me
to try harder, focusing on tiny tiny increments, Like I'm
a big stroke person. I like, you know, I'm fast
and I'm furious.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
And it taught me.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Recovery taught me to like, if you can literally walk
a centimeter, that's okay, you'll walk to tomorrow. Wow, that
was brand new for me because I have never been
that kind of person.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So do you really feel like you weren't a compassionate person?
I feel I obviously I don't know you, but I
feel like just hearing you talk and you seem very empathetic,
and you seem like you take a lot on and
you you seem compassionate.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
I mean, I've always had compassion though for the big picture,
and I'm really talking more about the small picture of people, individuals,
individual interaction. I think I find it harder to tune
into my sympathy and understanding of an individual in front
of me as opposed to a cause. Oh interesting, yeah, everything,
(18:28):
Like I've never noticed small things when I was young.
I mean I really didn't. I didn't notice nature. Like
my father is really interested in environmental protection, and he
would take me on nature rambles, you know, and he'd
be pointing at mushrooms or the color of a leaf
or the texture of a stone, and it would bore
(18:49):
the shit out of me, you know. And then as
I got older, I noticed my first husband was similar.
We'd be like on a bus going into town and.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
He'd be like, oh, look at the little bird on the.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Branch, and I'd be like what huh, And I'd be
in my brain, you know, thinking about God only knows what.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Now that I'm.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Older, I've we started to see the tiny thing and
I'm so blown away by it, and I'm like, oh,
I've missed out on so much in my life by
not paying attention to any of this. You know, there's
so much beauty that I was oblivious to. So I
guess that's what I mean about, like compassion has been
sort of ignited, I think by my attention to small things.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
We'll be back with more from Shirley Manson and Lea Rose.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
After the Break, I saw on your last album, No
God's No Masters, you had a song called Waiting for God,
and then on the new album, you have a song
the Day that I Met God. So I was curious
how those songs in your mind, if there's any relationship
to those songs, if they have a relationship to each other,
(19:58):
and also, at this point in your life, what your
relationship with God is?
Speaker 4 (20:03):
That might be the best question I've ever been asked
in my life. Well, first of all, yes, there is
a connection between the two songs, but I didn't realize
that at the time, and it's only you know. Since
we finished the record and I thought about no God,
No Masters, and I thought about waiting for God to
(20:24):
show up and its relationship to the day I met God,
I realized they are absolutely interconnected, and one of the
reasons being waiting for God.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I wrote about.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
My long overdu shamefully over you awareness about black lives
in America, I mean, though arguably the world. But it
was triggered, my awareness really was triggered by the murder
of George Floyd, and it again turned me around. The
(20:55):
death of that man. The murder of that poor man
made me realize I had a lot of work to do.
I needed to educate myself. I was horrified by what
happened to him. It was one of the most grotesque
and a bomberable things I've ever seen, and it sent
me off on a long journey towards educating myself about colonialism,
(21:16):
about white supremacy, about racism, etc.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Etc.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
And waiting for God was my dismay at a lot
of the systemic injustices that exist worldwide, and then coming
into making this record, as I mentioned earlier, i'd I
had so much physical problems. Yeah, for lack of a
better word, I realized that if I did not discipline
(21:44):
myself to think differently from the mindset I was in
when I made No God's No Masters, that I would
probably destroy myself in some way or another, or I
certainly would never recover my equilibrium both physically and emotionally.
You know, in such a state, I couldn't afford to
(22:05):
engage with my outrage that I'd employed. So if it
lean no Gosna Masters, I realized, like, you are in peril,
and you really need to look at the world differently,
otherwise you really will put yourself back on your heels
and possibly might never fully recover your vigor. And so,
(22:28):
as I mentioned, I had these two hip surgeries, and
I was taking a lot of pain medication in the first.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Few weeks of both both surgeries.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
And I was kind of suffering from a really quite
extreme brain fog. When the band sent me this piece
of music, and I was on my treadmill during my
rehab learning how to walk again, and just out of
the blue, this song arrived in my head. It wasn't
premeditated or anything. It was just like I came up.
(22:59):
You know, the chords are so beautiful in the chorus,
and I came up with what I think is a
really beautiful melody, and these beautiful words appeared, and I
was like, this is actually a really beautiful chorus. And
I was shocked to realize that I had stumbled upon,
arguably my faith in that moment with these words. I
(23:21):
was like, this is something I believe in as someone
who has rejected organized religion since I was eleven years old,
and I told my dad I was no longer going
to Sunday School and I cut myself off from the
organized thinking of believing that.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
In that moment of writing that.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Chorus, I was like, actually, oh my god, I've kind
of found my faith here. This is what I believe in,
This is what I would like to employ in my
life as a sort of higher power.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Can you talk about the role that religion played in
your family growing up, because it seems like that wasn't
a little thing. You telling your father that you're rejecting
organized religion. How big of a deal was that?
Speaker 4 (24:02):
It was a huge deal for me as a child,
and not solely because my dad made us go to
school and we went to My parents went to the church.
I just, out of my three sisters, for whatever reason,
I was a child who really took Sunday School to heart.
I was very engaged with Jesus. I loved all the imagery.
(24:24):
I loved the lessons. I really believed in the Ten Commandments.
I have, actually, and I'm shamed to say this, but
I have read the New Bible from start to finish.
That's how maniacal I was. A complete It shows you
how nuts I was.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
So I really was shocked.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
As I started to grow up, I started to get
the sense that most people were not true believers. I
started noticing a lot of hypocrisy and it began to
really upset me. And then by the time I was
about eleven, I was just like, I'm no longer going
to the church because it's full of hypocrites and I
don't believe in what's being spidered. I think this is
a whole load of bullshit. And the minister I railed against.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I felt his ego.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
As a child, I felt this ego rather than this
well I talk about the word compassion again, I wasn't
receiving his compassion. I felt instead I was watching a performance.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
So I just rejected it. And I was furious at
being let down by Jesus. And I say that in
all sincerity. I felt really let down. I was like, Wow,
this is a horrible, horrible sham. As I've gotten older,
I see organized religion in a completely different light now.
(25:42):
But I was looking at it very simply as a child,
of like this was something I believed in. I've found
out a load of Bolics, and I'm furious about it,
and I reject it completely.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Where did all that passion and excitement and love that
you were, you know, giving to Jesus and giving to religion.
You were devout and you were such a good student.
Where did all that go? Once you decided religion isn't
for me?
Speaker 4 (26:10):
It went into music. Primarily. I was very active in
an all female choir, which I loved and was obsessed by,
and I was a member of the school orchestra. I
played violin, piano, clarinet. You know, I was a musical person,
and I also got involved on the stage, you know,
(26:31):
with dramatic arts. I had an amazing teacher actually at school.
She was a bit of a miss gene Brodie type
who plucked a couple of girls, I being one of
them from her year of kids and encouraged us to
join an Edinburgh youth theater and that became it sort
of an obsession for me.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
So yeah, I was so lucky.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
I had amazing, amazing teachers because Scotland in the seventies
they plowed a lot of money into education and the
school that I was at was attached to a very
prestigious music school called Saint Mary's, so we had we
had a music studio.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yes, I was. I was really spoiled.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
I had an incredible education thanks to the Scottish government
at the time.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
What was the rock scene like in Scotland when you
were a teenager? Were you going out and seeing bands
or were you more focused on what you were doing
with the drama class and or were you out were
you sort of like at bars and seeing shows.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Well, I didn't have any money, so I was being
punished because when at thirteen years old, I got caught smoking,
so I got no pocket money. So I couldn't actually
go to very many shows. So it's much later on
that I started going to see you know, Susie and
the Bansheese or the water Boys or the Smiths or like.
I saw a lot of amazing shows, but that was
(27:52):
much later on. When we were young, the rock scene
in Scotland hadn't really come to much because we didn't
have a music industry. Everything had to go through London. Yeah,
and so we had a very sort of disparate music
scene up in Scotland that started to change in the eighties.
(28:13):
But yeah, it wasn't it wasn't thriving, to be fair.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
It was Jesus a Mary Chainer from Scotland, right.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Hell yeah they are, I mean we have We had
amazing We had amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Artists, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
We had like the associates Jesus and Mary Chain and
my arguably one of my favorite bands of all time,
the Cocktail Twins.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Oh wow cool.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, and we claimed them as ours, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
But we had a lot of great punk bands, like
there was Zillows and Exploited and.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
We were very lucky.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
But yeah, I couldn't afford to go to any the
shows because I didn't have any money.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I was so curious about your post high school life.
I think it's around that time that you joined your
first band, but you were just sort of still living
at home but sort of floating around a little bit.
And what do you remember about that time?
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Well, again, I was really spoiled because our parents basically
kept us in the family home until we basically wanted
to leave. And I didn't leave my family home until
I was about twenty three. I was it was ridiculous,
but it was because my parents were so sort of
like easy Usye, they let us come and go as
we saw fit. I mean, I was very rebellious, and
I think my parents were smart enough to realize if
(29:28):
we fight her, she will win.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
So she has no compassion.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
She has no compassion at all.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
And so instead of stamping on my neck, what they
did was they just bounce back and let me be
and let me destroy basically my like my education. I
realized now, like they were just obviously like like, Okay,
we're going to let her do her thing. You know,
she's going to drive into a wall and you know,
hopefully she won't be blood too bloodied. But I failed
(29:58):
my schooling basically, And my dad said well, you need
to get a job. It's that simple. And so I
went and worked in a teen clothing store, which is
kind of like Forever twenty one. It was sort of
like that, were you like a cool shop girl or
I was a cool shop girl. I mean I didn't
think I was cool, but I was. And people used
(30:19):
to tell people even today, go, I remember you from
Miss Selfridge.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I thought you were the coolest girl.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
You know. And we had like I was doing my
hair up in crazy hair styles and I worked at
the makeup station for a while and I got to
paint people's.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Faces and it was great.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Oh, but then I had a bad attitude towards some
of the customers. I got relegated to the changing room,
which I hated, as you can imagine, and then I
was so rude. I got into an altercation with the customer.
I was then relegated to the stockroom and that.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Was the end of my Wow, like, she cannot be
around people.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I'd see customers like treat the clothes poorly, throw them
on the floor of the fitting room and then walk out,
and I'd be, excuse me, you need to pick that
up and take it back to me. Here at the
station and they would throw it on my lap and
I would throw it right back at and I'd get
in trouble for that, like throw her in the back exactly,
we're putting her upstairs and yeah. So that's that's what
(31:16):
happened to my glorious career in miss Selfridge. But at nighttime,
I was playing in a band and I was also
a big clubber. I love to dance, so I'd go
to this club called the Hooch Couch Club, which was
my favorite club in Edinburgh, and they played incredible music
and they had amazing bands that would come and play
and yeah, and it was full of people with incredible style.
(31:38):
And even to this day, I'm like, that is the
coolest scene I've ever been in.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, non, And it's extra cool because back then there
wasn't the Internet, so people couldn't just like order like
random shit online that they saw somebody else wearing. It
was people actually picking pieces themselves and putting things together exactly.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
And we didn't have much money, so we were really
into the vintage clothing stores, you know, so everybody looked different,
nobody looked the same, you know. Now I look at
kids and I'm like, why are you wearing white like
cut off mid drift T shirts and baggy jeans and
your hair straight like a Kardashian and you've got the
long nails like a Gardashian and you've got the same
(32:19):
exact same sneakers on. Like, I don't get it. I'm
like really curious. When we were young, we would die.
We'd rather die than look like someone else.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yes, once you were in a band. In the band
was touring, and it sounds like you weren't making like
real money, but you were able to support yourself at
some point right.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Well again, Luckily for me, my parents had shoved me
out of the house, so I didn't really need that
much money. I certainly didn't make much money, but I
realized now looking.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Back, I just did it. Literally. I loved it.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I got excited by it, and I had a lot
of like tenacity, Like I sang back up with another
girl in the band that I was in called Gouby
Miss McKenzie, and she would leave recording sessions early because
she'd get tired. She'd be like, I need to go
to bed, Like I can't handle this. I would be
there all night long to sing two lines as a
(33:18):
backing vocalist. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I just believed in it.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
And I wanted to be there and wanted to be
part of it. And I think that tenacity has served
me really well throughout my whole career. Is it's just like,
I am not the girl that goes home. It's the
same girl who read the entire Bible.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Exactly. She's nuts keep away from her same girl.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Was your path a lot different from your sister's paths?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Yeah, we were very different people. And again I stuck
in at everything I ever did. You know, I took
everything I did seriously. I stuck in at choir, stuck
in at you theater, stuck in at bali.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
You know, my.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Sisters were much less focused than I was. They were
just sort of like, yeah, maybe i'll play the piano
for a bit, but then i'll give that up and
then I'll go riding for a bit. They had less
interest in sort of the arts than I did. And
my big sister, God bless her. All she wanted to
do her whole life was be a nurse. She just
retired actually, but she's a very committed intensive care nurse
(34:22):
and she's a brilliant one.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Do you think being a middle child has influenced your
relationships in the way that you relate to other people,
like even in the band, does that come up the
way that you sort of view life.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Yes, absolutely everything is colored by my position in the family.
And I'm not being flipped. And I actually saw article
in the BBC that they've done a study on this,
and they asked oldest children and youngest children if they
enjoyed their position in the family, and they all apparently
are very high percentage. Geneway said yes, but all the
(35:00):
middle children said they hated the fact that they were
the middle child. And I was one of them. Oh,
I'm beginning now in my old age to go. Actually
it was quite cool because it really twisted me. And
being twisted is really good for being an artist, So
it's okay. It all worked out in the end. But
I was miserable because I felt like I didn't enjoy
(35:20):
any privilege, Like my big sister got to have all
the responsibility and freedom, my little sister got all the coddling,
and I got all the second hand clothes, and it
made me insane, you know, And it also made me
hungry for love and hungry for connection, and that has
(35:46):
been a difficult void to fill in my life.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
You know, Oh that makes.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Me so sad.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah, I don't feel sad.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
It's been good for me and I have an amazing
husband who's.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Fixed the whole. Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
But for so long I realized I was just I
don't know, I was just wanting to feel like somebody
saw me. I felt really invisible as a middle child.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
But then when you go on to become a lead
singer of a band and you occupy that position, which
is the central position, literally with a spotlight on you,
you're considered an it girl. How does that not fill
the whole? I mean, I know it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Well, in some ways it does fill the whole, Like
when I'm standing on stage like you say, right and
nestled in the middle of the band. They're flanking me
and there's a light on me, and I feel seen
and I feel understood. That has fixed it to a
certain degree. But of course you can't spend your whole
life doing that, and so you have to fix yourself
outside of work. And I definitely have done that. But
(36:50):
I do notice I love like even now, like I'll
love sitting in between two people, and I love being.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
A Shirley Sandwich.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
You know, it's it's sort of weird, but I like
really gravitate towards it, like wow, Yeah, it's funny. Yeah,
I'm grateful for it because I really do think it's
helped me in my career. I think it's helped me
be really good at what I do. Yeah, is because
a lot of artists, creative artists are not comfortable in
a live situation.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
They don't enjoy it. They do it because they have to,
you mean.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Live at the stage performing.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, live on stage performing They don't love it. They
don't enjoy it, and I do. I feel like I
might like my most whole self on stage.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I imagine as someone who came up and was super
popular the height of your career, MTV was everything, So
there was such a strong visual component that came along
with the success. Did that visual side of it? Did
that freak you out? Or did it make you feel good?
Speaker 4 (37:54):
I absolutely understood the power of video. Yeah, And I
absolutely understood the power of identity. I'd been in a band,
as I said before, for ten years before I joined Garbage,
and that band had taught me a lot about what
were your tools of the trade, so to speak. In
and so I understood that videos and the visualization of
(38:17):
the band were primary importance, and I put a lot
of energy into that. And I also, having been a
previous clubbing girl, I understood that what you wore was
also important, and I put a lot of weight behind
that too. And that sort of emphasis that I put
on that kind of thing was still quite unusual. It
wasn't part of course, And of course we arrived somewhat
(38:41):
at the tail end of grunge music, where everybody was
sort of playing glamour down. They were crushing glamour. They
were doing sort of a much more sort of low
key presentation, and I was like, I'm bringing in some
club flavors here, and I like wore the neon dresses,
and I wore I wore what I called like sort
of pop star makeup. You know, I wasn't coming out
(39:04):
with disheveled hair and no makeup. I came home with
a full face and glamorous.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Hair, and so I really stood out.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
You know, when we came out, everybody was like, well,
who's this, you know, and so yeah, I did know
that it was a powerful tool, but unfortunately for me.
When I did start attracting a lot of attention, it
became something unpleasant for me. I didn't enjoy the attention
the way I thought I would. I didn't revel in
(39:33):
the attention, and it started to make me a little unhappy.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Do you know why was it different attention than you
were anticipating?
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yeah, it was different kind of attention. I felt a
lot of expectation on my shoulders to present a certain way.
And of course I'm not a particularly vain person, as
I said earlier, like I understood why I had to
present a certain way and it was important, and I
don't think it was born of vanity. I mean, maybe
people that know me better would argue that, but I
(40:01):
don't think so. I just don't think I'm a particularly
vain person. But I had a lot of self doubt
and low physical ast. Yeah, I didn't feel beautiful, and
now looking back, I'm like, my god, you were so beautiful,
but you didn't think you were, you know, And so
I was hard on myself and if I didn't look
like the version of myself that presented on MTV, I
(40:25):
felt I was falling short of the mark, and I
felt I was disappointing everybody, and I was letting the
band down, and that if I was really a good
like music personality or lead singer, I would be able
to achieve the height you know of that I was
achieving on film, I would be able to muster that
in my real life.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
And I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
And therefore I felt, Oh, I'm not meant to be
doing this. I mean, I really did a number on myself.
I was like, I'm not meant to be doing this.
I'm not good enough, I'm not beautiful, stylish enough, I'm
not this, I'm not that, and it just it became
really unhealthy and horrible.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Did you have anybody back then that you could talk
to you about that, any other women who were in
a similar position.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
No, I didn't, And I think that as part of
the problem is a lot of my friends back home,
for whatever reason, just didn't really want to engage with
me about my career. I think it was very difficult,
you know, I think, and this happens a lot. I
think to people who gain public success, you know, a
visibly successful career in the public eye, I think it's
(41:30):
hard on your friends sometimes and it disrupts the power
balance between friends where previously it's all eglitarian and then
their attitude towards you change. Is my attitude didn't change
towards them, but their attitude towards me did, and I
think they projected a lot onto me, and it was
(41:51):
very lonely. And I also, deliberately, and this is on me,
I diminished my own light because I felt it was
hurting the people I loved. And again I'm not saying
this was sane or healthy thinking this was a very
destructive part of my personality, but I would everything. And
then of course you grow up and you start to
(42:12):
resent the fact that you've diminished your success and you've
diminished the things that have happened to you, and you
haven't owned the moments that really were deserving of celebration.
You know, when you meet Madonna, you want to go
home and scream I fucking met Madonna tonight and she
told me I was amazing, and you know, you want
to scream it from the rooftops, but you keep it
(42:32):
to yourself because you know that your friends are not
going to.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Enjoy that particular boast.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Yes, and so it's a very complicated experience. And yeah,
I didn't know any other women in the business, yet okay,
who did what I did? And so yeah, I was
totally on my own. And of course I'm in this
band with three older men who just moved through the
world very differently from me.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
One last break and we back with Shirley Manson.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I really appreciate how open you are about your in
the music industry and how reflective you are. And I
wonder does that have anything to do with you hosting
a podcast and being an interviewer. Do you think you
sort of understand the process in a different way now
after having that experience.
Speaker 4 (43:27):
Well, I definitely understand the process a wee bit better
than I did. I don't think I understand it more.
If anything, I understand it less, and I'm much more
self conscious. I have a deep respect for journalists that
I speak to who I and this never shame on me,
but this never ever struck my mind. But I understand
how much work goes into interviewing somebody I had no idea.
(43:51):
So I have a lot more respect, I guess, for
the process, and I do try and honor it, you know,
because I, yeah, I know what the journalist has done
on the other side, But hosting a podcast was utterly terrifying,
and I really realized how out of my depth I was,
and it cosed me a little distress and stress I
(44:11):
felt because I wanted to honor the person I was interviewing,
and I felt like, of course I didn't want to
just ask the same old, same oen.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Totally.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
Yeah, it caused me a lot of banks to never again.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
I wonder if, though, there is an advantage that you
might have because you know, you're an artist talking to
other artists, and artists naturally feel a lot more comfortable
in that situation with, you know, someone who maybe can
understand just how a creative person might think or move
in the world. So that might actually be a big
advantage that you have as an interviewer.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
I mean maybe, I certainly think there was no suspicion
that I had some kind of high agenda, you know,
so everybody was very relaxed and open with me. It
was me he was uptight. You know, I was the
one who was bringing a lot of stress to the equation.
But you know, there is a certain kind of understanding
with certain artists that you enjoy as a fellow artist.
(45:12):
You know, when you connect with an artist that really
gets you and you really get them. There is a
sort of level that you get to that I don't
believe I've ever gotten to in my life outside of music.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Is there anybody in particular who you've met over the
years who you really had like an instant connection.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
With Peaches and Karen O and Alanis and Liz Fair,
you know, all the women that kind of are in
my sphere. We share a certain kind of understanding and
a trust, I guess with each other. That is very
beautiful and consider a great privilege. You know that I'm
able to communicate with these women and we have these
(45:55):
profound conversations that just if you don't do what we do,
you cannot hold this the same conversation.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
You know what types of things come up in those conversations.
Speaker 4 (46:05):
Well, that's private for that, that's private. That's the witches called.
And what goes on in the coven stays in the coven,
you know. But yeah, can you can just be really
vulnerable with one another? And yeah, we talk about our
rule as artists in the world, you know. And yes,
it's a real gift, Consider a real gift.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Do you remember any moments? I mean, now you can
look back and hopefully celebrate those moments like meeting Madonna
or other big rock star moments where you got to
meet somebody who you just idolized or really respected and
it actually went well, like it was a good experience.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
All of my meetings with my heroes have gone well,
every single one.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Really.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Yeah, I've had like just magical moments.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
For that.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I know myself.
Speaker 4 (46:57):
No, I haven't met a single asshole and they've all
blown me away. But I will attribute some of that
to myself because I had really good taste in the
people that I choose to admire and be a pupil
of in the music industry. Like everybody that I was
obsessed with, I've met all of them.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Who's someone in particular that you can share a story
about I've.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Well, I mean, there's been so many. It feels obscene
to boast, you know, but I've just enjoyed incredible interactions.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
With so many.
Speaker 4 (47:31):
I mean, the funniest one, I'll tell you the funniest one. Okay,
I met Patti Smith. We were at the Montrose Jazz
Festival and she was actually opening for Garbage. This is
how ridiculous the music industry is and how tits up
it gets you know, we were the brand new thing,
so we were given this high position on the bill.
But Pat Smith is opening for us, and I was
obscene and I was embarrassed by it. But anyway, we
(47:55):
driving late on our bus. We get to the venue.
I am starving and I haven't eaten all day and
I get a I don't know how I remember this,
but I got a green tie curry and I I'm
tucking into it and there's a knock on the door
and I go come in. And then there's another knock
on the door and I go come in, and I'm
(48:16):
scoffing this food like a greedy bastard like I am.
And then there's a third knock on the door, and
I go for fox sake, and I get up off
my seat and I throw the door open. And who's
standing there but the Great Patti Smith, a serene and
goddess like as you can imagine, Yes she and very
quietly she said, I just wanted to come by because
(48:37):
I won't have time after my set, and I wanted
to say hi. And I'm like, oh, oh, hi, you know,
trying to be all of a sudden miss nice, you know, mismannerd.
We talk a little, and of course I'm loving to her,
and she's very graceful and elegant, and off she shuffles,
and I shut the door and I sit down and
I put my fork into my green curry and I
look up and there's a mirror right in front of me,
(48:59):
because I'm at my dressing table. I look up in
the mirror and there's green curry sauce all over my face, and.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
I'm just like, oh my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (49:11):
So that is one of the funny moments. I'll never
forget that I was so humiliated and it's all on me.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
So fun Is there anything else about the new album?
I want to make sure you're able to say everything
you want to say about the process or upcoming tour.
Is there anything that we didn't cover?
Speaker 4 (49:33):
I think you've done an amazing job, and I'm so
old over by obviously like the amount of work you
put into this. I mean, we touched on this earlier,
but I'm just really grateful to talk to somebody like you.
You know, as if older woman in the music industry,
how people relate to you shifts, you know, yes, and
(49:54):
you're sort of invisible in a funny way. Yeah, So
to talk to somebody of your caliber and get to
answer really wonderful questions.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
I'm very grateful for.
Speaker 4 (50:04):
I don't I couldn't begin to tell you how many
interviews I've done, you know, over the last few years
where I'm thinking to myself and I have I am
not the most confident, like, sort of believing in myself
kind of person. You know. I don't know, I am
the fucking shit and you should be so thrilled to
talk to me. I'm never like that. I'm just sort
of like, oh my god, I can't believe that Rolling
(50:25):
Stone would want to speak to me.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
I never take it for granted or anything like that.
But sometimes I'm sitting, you know, talking to journalists and
I think, is this really the level that we're at.
I'm an artist, I've been doing this for thirty years,
you know, and you're talking to me about a dress
I wore on stage. You know that you thought made
(50:49):
me look like a green witch? Are you fucking proud
of your mind?
Speaker 2 (50:53):
You know it's a shame on them.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
Oh yeah, well, you know, it's just it is what
it is, right. But as I said, I'm just really
grateful for your time and anybody talking about our work,
our new record in any context, I'm grateful for there's
so many artists out there, there's so many records, and
to be given an opportunity to just say, hey, we've
made this record.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
We think it's really good.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
It is really good. I sec thank you.
Speaker 4 (51:17):
But we made it with a lot of love, you know,
and we have no real expectations of it, but it
has brought us a gift into the world, and I
hope it's received that way, and hopefully it's just a
part another moment in a career that will continue.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
That's what I hope.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, it is going to continue. Thank you so much, Shirley.
I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 4 (51:38):
I appreciate you, Leiah, and thank you. It's been really
lovely talking to you. And I'm yeah, lots of love.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Thank you, good night, bye bye bye.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
An episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist
of our favorite Garbage tracks, as well as their latest album,
Let All That We Imagine Be the Light. Be sure
to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast
to see all of our video interviews, and be sure
to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod.
You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Red. Broken
(52:10):
Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing
help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is
Ben Tolliny. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription
that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four
(52:31):
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember
to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.
Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
Pushkin. Hey, this is Justin Richmond from the Broken Record podcast.
Join me this June for a live taping of Broken
Record at the Tribeca Festival. We're all bee in conversation
with Infinity Song, a New York based soft rock band
comprised of four siblings who will also be doing a
couple of songs for us. You'll hear the artist and
a career spanning conversation about their inspirations and dynamic styles.
(00:39):
We'll be at the SVA Theater on June twelve at
eight thirty pm. Defund tickets, wos A tribecafilm dot com
slash Broken Record all lowercase. That's tribecafilm dot com slash
Broken Record. Hope to see there. Shirley Manson, the iconic
Scottish singer songwriter, rose to eight girl status in the
nineties as a fierce and magnetic frontwoman of Garbage. Though
(01:02):
her tenure with the band now spans over three decades,
Shirley was already a season lead singer when she joined
in nineteen ninety six. She was invited to audition for
Garbage after guitarist Steve Marker spotted her in a music
video for her previous band Angelfish. Today, Garbage is sold
over seventeen million albums worldwide, with all original members still
(01:22):
going strong. The band is now preparing to release their
eighth studio album, Let All That We Imagine Be the Light,
and Shirley's unmistakable voice remains as sharp and compelling as ever.
On today's episode, Lee Rose sits down with Shirley Manson
to discussed how an unexpected piece of advice from an
acting coach during her time on the Fox sci fi
series Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles continues to shape her
(01:45):
creative process. Shirley also opens up about the challenges of
communicating with her bandmates and shares a hilarious story about
meeting one of her musical heroes, Patti Smith. This is
broken record, real musicians, real conversations. This episode is brought
to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to meet challenges
(02:08):
head on so you and explore with confidence. Adventure Seekers
and risk takers can explore the full Defender lineup at
land ROVERUSA dot com. Here's Leah Rose with Shirley Manson.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I've been watching and listening to a lot of interviews
that you've done over the years. And I heard you
talking about working with an acting coach, maybe after working
on Terminator, and you learned some really interesting thing or
got some really interesting insight from the acting coach. Can
you remember what she told you and how that sort
(02:42):
of influenced you at the time.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I studied under an acting coach called Sharon Chatton in
Los Angeles, and she absolutely changed my whole life and
my relationship to my music, to my work, I guess
for one of a better term, and I think about
her almost every single day.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Yeah, she taught me so much about not just being
an art but being a human and being trying to
be in the moment, which is such a profound gift
if you are able to teach yourself to live in
the moment and not worry about tomorrow or yesterday. And
up until meeting her, I was much more fearful, I guess,
(03:26):
of trying to be creative, and then she just taught
me how to sort of sink into it and play
instead of plan, and that was profound. That's just one
of the very many things she taught me. But that
was a real kicker for me, is how to be
in the moment of creation and not be rigid, but
(03:48):
to be really fluid and just go with whatever is
coming out and investigate that and chase that rabbit and
not try and force something that perhaps was preordained.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Do you remember the first project, creative project that you
applied her advice to and did that turn out differently
for you?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
My band Garbage had been on a long hiatus for
a lot of different reasons. But we had been dropped
by Entrascope Records, and my mother had been diagnosed with
a very extreme and aggressive form of dementia called Pick's disease,
which took her out of the game in like eighteen months.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
And then two of my really close girlfriends, one lost
her young husband and the other lost her six year
old son. And it was all during this hiatus that
I was on from the band, and that took up
a lot of my time and energy. But I also,
as you said rightly pointed out, I was on the
(04:49):
Sarah Connor Chronicles on the Fox Networks. It was a
big show, a big TV show. And then I started
to study with Sharon and then I got back with
the band I think in about twenty ten, and we
started work on Not Your kind of People, which was
our fifth studio record, and so I started plowing it.
(05:09):
Then the things I'd learned over that course of time
in my life, which was really a very difficult and
tumultuous time, And yeah, I've just gotten better at adhering
to the lessons Sharon taught me as time has passed.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Is there anything specific you can point to on the
new album that maybe is a result from that advice
from her?
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Well, I immediately think of have We Met the Void? Which
was I was in the studio with Duke, the guitarist
in Garbage. It was just the two of us, and
we had been talking about a book he was reading
about witchcraft, and we sort of were chuckling together, and
I was like, let's try and write a song about that.
You know, about how women were destroyed by because they
(05:56):
were powerful, or they were intelligent, or they were intuitive.
They were put to death for all these reasons. That's
what I want to write about. And I went, I
hopped into the vocal booth and he played this particular
piece of music that he had written with the band,
and I was determined I was going to write about
witchcraft or witches, and instead I heard the first few
(06:21):
bars of the music, and I just had a picture
of myself when I was a young woman in my
early twenties. It was a situation that had happened in
real life, and I just sort of swung into it,
and this bizarre story that had occurred to me in
my life came out of nowhere. I hadn't even thought
about it in years. And that's kind of what I
(06:43):
mean of like just having a thread of an idea
and then it just turning left and be willing to
follow it, even though that wasn't my intention. It was
like I just realized I saw the thread, I grabbed it,
and I just followed the thread into the void. And
so that would be one of that would be a
(07:04):
really like sort of an example of what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that song,
and I was going to ask you how did you
get in the headspace to record that, because it's like
you're growling and it's so it's so raw and feels
a little bit primal and sinister.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Well, it is sinister. It's definitely sinister. And it was
a very dark experience. You know, when you find out
you know your partner is having another and entirely different
relationship outside of the one that you thought you had.
And so, yeah, that song.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Is very dark. I love it.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
I love it too. It's oh, I love it too.
And it feels so personal, you know that. And it's
funny this sort of joy you experience when you can
throw in really personal things into a lyric, you know,
being able to name my city that felt like radical
to me, you know. And I love the line, have
(08:03):
you motherfuckers been seeing each other? You know? Something I've
said at the time, And it's something that you know,
I've said quite a few times since, you know, And
I think anyone who's ever been cheated on can really
relate to that line, you know, that moment when you're like,
hold on a minute, something crazy is happening here, and
it's not really what I expected to happen to me today,
(08:28):
you know, totally. Yeah, it's such a horrible feeling, you know,
it's just a horrible, horrible feeling.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Isn't it awful that you can still feel that too
so many years later?
Speaker 4 (08:39):
But isn't it also wonderful, you know, to be still
in contact with those really raw feelings of your youth
when you were an entirely different person and you didn't
know what you do now. I think there's something really
glorious about that and exciting. You know, It's like, ah,
I remember her. I can remember what I was wearing.
I can remember you know how I wore my hair
(09:00):
and my makeup, and you know the bag I used
to use. And it's like a real sort of Proustian
moment right of the Madeline. It's like, ah, I like
being able to touch all my ghosts totally.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Do you ever wonder if you miss remember things? Like
if you were to actually go back and see yourself
or just be sort of like an eyewitness to your
early life, what if it's totally different. I think about
that all the time.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I know for a fact everything will be different. You know.
I know that our memories are so flawed, but I
do believe that you sort of remember the important parts
of the storyline. You know, you get it. There was
you know, a deceit that you know and you were furious,
and so you remember.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
The big picture.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Yeah, the details not so much, although again in this song,
I remember these crazy details because my partner lived opposite
Goudy Cathedral in Barcelona, and I can remember standing looking
at this young woman thinking, oh my god, you're having
an affair with my boyfriend, and hearing the bells of
(10:09):
the cathedral chime.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
You know what I mean. It was so weird. It
was so weird.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
But then again, maybe somebody'll say, yea, Guidi's bell stopped
working one hundred years ago, so maybe I'm completely tripping
as well. But yeah, I guess that's part of the
fun of memory. You survived it, and the details probably
don't matter that much.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yes, what is the dynamic like when you're in the
studio with Duke and you're entering this really private, intense moment.
I know, maybe you were in a vocal booth by yourself,
but do you feel comfortable enough where you can just
totally go there with him there?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
I mean I feel comfortable with the whole band, you know,
the three of them, Steve, Butch and Duke. I used
to feel very self conscious when I went into the
vocal booth, and I was not happy particularly, I felt
very isolated and judged. And now again going back to
Shan Chattan and my acting teacher, she taught me how
(11:13):
to switch that all off. She was like, you're not
there to serve anybody.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
You're there to.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Serve your creative instinct. Whereas when I first joined the band,
because I joined the band under strange circumstances, you know,
Butch was, you know, one of the premier producers in
America in the nineties, and he had a lot of weight,
and there was so much respect, and he had this
(11:38):
power that I felt that I did not have. And
I also, you know, really wanted the band to be
proud of me. They had selected me to do this job.
I wanted to do the very, very best job I
could do, and as a result, I think, looking back,
as a young woman trying to prove herself, it was
difficult and I didn't necessarily enjoy the creative aspect of it.
(12:03):
I found it taxing, and as I said, I felt
like I was sort of being judged, and so so
a lot of the joy of creativity that I experience
now I was kind of robbed from me, not through
anybody else's fault, but my own. I hastened to add,
this was all imagined in my own mind. But now
I have no self consciousness at all. I don't care
(12:25):
if I make mistakes or if I'm singing out of
tune as long as I've sort of getting the idea across,
you know, Whereas back in the day, I'd really freak
out if I didn't hit a note, or I would
be scared to try something vocally that I didn't know
I could absolutely pull off with a plum. I didn't
want to fail in front of them, and so I didn't.
(12:46):
And now I'm like, I'm willing to try anything, and
if they like it, they like it. If they don't,
then if as long as I like it, I feel good.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
What is the creative dynamic within the band? Like, now,
how do the songs come together? Is it usually the
guys go off and make tracks on their own and
then bring you in and then you write to the track,
or how do the songs get made?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Well?
Speaker 4 (13:10):
This record was very different from any other record we've
ever made because I had two hip surgeries, two hip replacements,
both at the beginning of the making of this record
and at the very end the dovetail of making this record,
I had another hip placement and no different hip. Oh yeah,
I'm fully bionic. It's super hot. I'm so Lindsey Wagner.
(13:35):
But as a result of being mechanically broken, I spent
a lot of time in bed, and I had a
lot of brain fog because I was on a lot
pain killers, and I didn't want to go into the studio.
I didn't feel I felt very vulnerable, and I was
arguably a little depressed. But I knew that if we
wasted too much time not making our next record, it
(13:57):
would be a decade until we got another record out.
And I was determined that wouldn't be the case. And
so I urged the band to go and work without me,
which is a first. Like usually we do everything together.
It were allway in the same room pretty much, you know,
and in this case, they went into Butcher's home studio
and they would send me musical ideas as it came
(14:18):
to them, and then I would work, you know, on
my belodies or my lyrics or whatnot by myself, and
that I've never done that, and it was strange, and
I do think it was great for me in one regard,
but it also unfortunately underscored for me how much of
an outsider I remain in Garbage in that, you know,
(14:41):
there are three men of the same age, pretty much
come from the same part of the country. They love
each other very much, and they're really tight. And the
three of them are you know, quite quiet in a
funny way and a little uncommunicative, you know, that very
sort of stiff upper Midwestern lip that you can encounter
(15:05):
a lot. So they don't really communicate with me creatively,
which I find as I get older harder and harder
to navigate. When I was young, I'd put in a
lot of energy into facilitating communication within the band, and
then I just got well, then I got broken. When
(15:27):
you can't walk, it's like, fuck everything, Fuck everyone. I'm
just trying to literally learn how to get up out
of a seat and walk across the room. And I
didn't have any energy to spend on anybody else or
anything else, and as a result, there was very little communication.
And I find that hard because I'm such a communicative person.
(15:48):
I gasp for contact and connection. And I feel like
me and the boys are I mean, we love each other.
We've got a great dynamic. If you came into a room,
you'd be like, oh, they're all great. They really get
along and we do and it's lovely, but creatively that
it feels to me like there's quite gulf now in
(16:10):
a funny way between us, which hopefully at some point
we can manage, you know better. I'm certainly more robust
now than I was three years ago, you know, when
I started upon this sort of physical period of disintegration
and rehabilitation.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, so are you health wise? Are you doing better now?
Where now are?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Be warned, she's back.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
But yeah, it was very hard. You know.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
It's really changed the way I look at the world
and look at other people, and it's sort of forced
me to really try and tap into my compassion, which
I I've never been famous for my compassion. And now
I realize how much people are dealing with privately. And
I now walk down the street and I can see
(17:02):
people's bodies move a certain way and I'm like, Oh,
they're going to need a hit replacement, or oh their
knees fucked, or oh my god, you know this person
doesn't look well. I mean, it's just it's horrible. It's
a horrible, like sort of education I got that I
wish I hadn't. But at the same time, it's also
been quite magical in a funny way. It's taught me
(17:23):
to be more patient with my body. It's taught me
to try harder, focusing on tiny tiny increments, Like I'm
a big stroke person. I like, you know, I'm fast
and I'm furious.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
And it taught me.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Recovery taught me to like, if you can literally walk
a centimeter, that's okay, you'll walk to tomorrow. Wow, that
was brand new for me because I have never been
that kind of person.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So do you really feel like you weren't a compassionate person?
I feel I obviously I don't know you, but I
feel like just hearing you talk and you seem very empathetic,
and you seem like you take a lot on and
you you seem compassionate.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
I mean, I've always had compassion though for the big picture,
and I'm really talking more about the small picture of people, individuals,
individual interaction. I think I find it harder to tune
into my sympathy and understanding of an individual in front
of me as opposed to a cause. Oh interesting, yeah, everything,
(18:28):
Like I've never noticed small things when I was young.
I mean I really didn't. I didn't notice nature. Like
my father is really interested in environmental protection, and he
would take me on nature rambles, you know, and he'd
be pointing at mushrooms or the color of a leaf
or the texture of a stone, and it would bore
(18:49):
the shit out of me, you know. And then as
I got older, I noticed my first husband was similar.
We'd be like on a bus going into town and.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
He'd be like, oh, look at the little bird on the.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Branch, and I'd be like what huh, And I'd be
in my brain, you know, thinking about God only knows what.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Now that I'm.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Older, I've we started to see the tiny thing and
I'm so blown away by it, and I'm like, oh,
I've missed out on so much in my life by
not paying attention to any of this. You know, there's
so much beauty that I was oblivious to. So I
guess that's what I mean about, like compassion has been
sort of ignited, I think by my attention to small things.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
We'll be back with more from Shirley Manson and Lea Rose.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
After the Break, I saw on your last album, No
God's No Masters, you had a song called Waiting for God,
and then on the new album, you have a song
the Day that I Met God. So I was curious
how those songs in your mind, if there's any relationship
to those songs, if they have a relationship to each other,
(19:58):
and also, at this point in your life, what your
relationship with God is?
Speaker 4 (20:03):
That might be the best question I've ever been asked
in my life. Well, first of all, yes, there is
a connection between the two songs, but I didn't realize
that at the time, and it's only you know. Since
we finished the record and I thought about no God,
No Masters, and I thought about waiting for God to
(20:24):
show up and its relationship to the day I met God,
I realized they are absolutely interconnected, and one of the
reasons being waiting for God.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I wrote about.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
My long overdu shamefully over you awareness about black lives
in America, I mean, though arguably the world. But it
was triggered, my awareness really was triggered by the murder
of George Floyd, and it again turned me around. The
(20:55):
death of that man. The murder of that poor man
made me realize I had a lot of work to do.
I needed to educate myself. I was horrified by what
happened to him. It was one of the most grotesque
and a bomberable things I've ever seen, and it sent
me off on a long journey towards educating myself about colonialism,
(21:16):
about white supremacy, about racism, etc.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Etc.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
And waiting for God was my dismay at a lot
of the systemic injustices that exist worldwide, and then coming
into making this record, as I mentioned earlier, i'd I
had so much physical problems. Yeah, for lack of a
better word, I realized that if I did not discipline
(21:44):
myself to think differently from the mindset I was in
when I made No God's No Masters, that I would
probably destroy myself in some way or another, or I
certainly would never recover my equilibrium both physically and emotionally.
You know, in such a state, I couldn't afford to
(22:05):
engage with my outrage that I'd employed. So if it
lean no Gosna Masters, I realized, like, you are in peril,
and you really need to look at the world differently,
otherwise you really will put yourself back on your heels
and possibly might never fully recover your vigor. And so,
(22:28):
as I mentioned, I had these two hip surgeries, and
I was taking a lot of pain medication in the first.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Few weeks of both both surgeries.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
And I was kind of suffering from a really quite
extreme brain fog. When the band sent me this piece
of music, and I was on my treadmill during my
rehab learning how to walk again, and just out of
the blue, this song arrived in my head. It wasn't
premeditated or anything. It was just like I came up.
(22:59):
You know, the chords are so beautiful in the chorus,
and I came up with what I think is a
really beautiful melody, and these beautiful words appeared, and I
was like, this is actually a really beautiful chorus. And
I was shocked to realize that I had stumbled upon,
arguably my faith in that moment with these words. I
(23:21):
was like, this is something I believe in as someone
who has rejected organized religion since I was eleven years old,
and I told my dad I was no longer going
to Sunday School and I cut myself off from the
organized thinking of believing that.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
In that moment of writing that.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Chorus, I was like, actually, oh my god, I've kind
of found my faith here. This is what I believe in,
This is what I would like to employ in my
life as a sort of higher power.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Can you talk about the role that religion played in
your family growing up, because it seems like that wasn't
a little thing. You telling your father that you're rejecting
organized religion. How big of a deal was that?
Speaker 4 (24:02):
It was a huge deal for me as a child,
and not solely because my dad made us go to
school and we went to My parents went to the church.
I just, out of my three sisters, for whatever reason,
I was a child who really took Sunday School to heart.
I was very engaged with Jesus. I loved all the imagery.
(24:24):
I loved the lessons. I really believed in the Ten Commandments.
I have, actually, and I'm shamed to say this, but
I have read the New Bible from start to finish.
That's how maniacal I was. A complete It shows you
how nuts I was.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
So I really was shocked.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
As I started to grow up, I started to get
the sense that most people were not true believers. I
started noticing a lot of hypocrisy and it began to
really upset me. And then by the time I was
about eleven, I was just like, I'm no longer going
to the church because it's full of hypocrites and I
don't believe in what's being spidered. I think this is
a whole load of bullshit. And the minister I railed against.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I felt his ego.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
As a child, I felt this ego rather than this
well I talk about the word compassion again, I wasn't
receiving his compassion. I felt instead I was watching a performance.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
So I just rejected it. And I was furious at
being let down by Jesus. And I say that in
all sincerity. I felt really let down. I was like, Wow,
this is a horrible, horrible sham. As I've gotten older,
I see organized religion in a completely different light now.
(25:42):
But I was looking at it very simply as a child,
of like this was something I believed in. I've found
out a load of Bolics, and I'm furious about it,
and I reject it completely.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Where did all that passion and excitement and love that
you were, you know, giving to Jesus and giving to religion.
You were devout and you were such a good student.
Where did all that go? Once you decided religion isn't
for me?
Speaker 4 (26:10):
It went into music. Primarily. I was very active in
an all female choir, which I loved and was obsessed by,
and I was a member of the school orchestra. I
played violin, piano, clarinet. You know, I was a musical person,
and I also got involved on the stage, you know,
(26:31):
with dramatic arts. I had an amazing teacher actually at school.
She was a bit of a miss gene Brodie type
who plucked a couple of girls, I being one of
them from her year of kids and encouraged us to
join an Edinburgh youth theater and that became it sort
of an obsession for me.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
So yeah, I was so lucky.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
I had amazing, amazing teachers because Scotland in the seventies
they plowed a lot of money into education and the
school that I was at was attached to a very
prestigious music school called Saint Mary's, so we had we
had a music studio.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yes, I was. I was really spoiled.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
I had an incredible education thanks to the Scottish government
at the time.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
What was the rock scene like in Scotland when you
were a teenager? Were you going out and seeing bands
or were you more focused on what you were doing
with the drama class and or were you out were
you sort of like at bars and seeing shows.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Well, I didn't have any money, so I was being
punished because when at thirteen years old, I got caught smoking,
so I got no pocket money. So I couldn't actually
go to very many shows. So it's much later on
that I started going to see you know, Susie and
the Bansheese or the water Boys or the Smiths or like.
I saw a lot of amazing shows, but that was
(27:52):
much later on. When we were young, the rock scene
in Scotland hadn't really come to much because we didn't
have a music industry. Everything had to go through London. Yeah,
and so we had a very sort of disparate music
scene up in Scotland that started to change in the eighties.
(28:13):
But yeah, it wasn't it wasn't thriving, to be fair.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
It was Jesus a Mary Chainer from Scotland, right.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Hell yeah they are, I mean we have We had
amazing We had amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Artists, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
We had like the associates Jesus and Mary Chain and
my arguably one of my favorite bands of all time,
the Cocktail Twins.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Oh wow cool.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, and we claimed them as ours, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
But we had a lot of great punk bands, like
there was Zillows and Exploited and.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
We were very lucky.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
But yeah, I couldn't afford to go to any the
shows because I didn't have any money.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I was so curious about your post high school life.
I think it's around that time that you joined your
first band, but you were just sort of still living
at home but sort of floating around a little bit.
And what do you remember about that time?
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Well, again, I was really spoiled because our parents basically
kept us in the family home until we basically wanted
to leave. And I didn't leave my family home until
I was about twenty three. I was it was ridiculous,
but it was because my parents were so sort of
like easy Usye, they let us come and go as
we saw fit. I mean, I was very rebellious, and
I think my parents were smart enough to realize if
(29:28):
we fight her, she will win.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
So she has no compassion.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
She has no compassion at all.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
And so instead of stamping on my neck, what they
did was they just bounce back and let me be
and let me destroy basically my like my education. I
realized now, like they were just obviously like like, Okay,
we're going to let her do her thing. You know,
she's going to drive into a wall and you know,
hopefully she won't be blood too bloodied. But I failed
(29:58):
my schooling basically, And my dad said well, you need
to get a job. It's that simple. And so I
went and worked in a teen clothing store, which is
kind of like Forever twenty one. It was sort of
like that, were you like a cool shop girl or
I was a cool shop girl. I mean I didn't
think I was cool, but I was. And people used
(30:19):
to tell people even today, go, I remember you from
Miss Selfridge.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I thought you were the coolest girl.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
You know. And we had like I was doing my
hair up in crazy hair styles and I worked at
the makeup station for a while and I got to
paint people's.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Faces and it was great.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Oh, but then I had a bad attitude towards some
of the customers. I got relegated to the changing room,
which I hated, as you can imagine, and then I
was so rude. I got into an altercation with the customer.
I was then relegated to the stockroom and that.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Was the end of my Wow, like, she cannot be
around people.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I'd see customers like treat the clothes poorly, throw them
on the floor of the fitting room and then walk out,
and I'd be, excuse me, you need to pick that
up and take it back to me. Here at the
station and they would throw it on my lap and
I would throw it right back at and I'd get
in trouble for that, like throw her in the back exactly,
we're putting her upstairs and yeah. So that's that's what
(31:16):
happened to my glorious career in miss Selfridge. But at nighttime,
I was playing in a band and I was also
a big clubber. I love to dance, so I'd go
to this club called the Hooch Couch Club, which was
my favorite club in Edinburgh, and they played incredible music
and they had amazing bands that would come and play
and yeah, and it was full of people with incredible style.
(31:38):
And even to this day, I'm like, that is the
coolest scene I've ever been in.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, non, And it's extra cool because back then there
wasn't the Internet, so people couldn't just like order like
random shit online that they saw somebody else wearing. It
was people actually picking pieces themselves and putting things together exactly.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
And we didn't have much money, so we were really
into the vintage clothing stores, you know, so everybody looked different,
nobody looked the same, you know. Now I look at
kids and I'm like, why are you wearing white like
cut off mid drift T shirts and baggy jeans and
your hair straight like a Kardashian and you've got the
long nails like a Gardashian and you've got the same
(32:19):
exact same sneakers on. Like, I don't get it. I'm
like really curious. When we were young, we would die.
We'd rather die than look like someone else.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yes, once you were in a band. In the band
was touring, and it sounds like you weren't making like
real money, but you were able to support yourself at
some point right.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Well again, Luckily for me, my parents had shoved me
out of the house, so I didn't really need that
much money. I certainly didn't make much money, but I
realized now looking.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Back, I just did it. Literally. I loved it.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I got excited by it, and I had a lot
of like tenacity, Like I sang back up with another
girl in the band that I was in called Gouby
Miss McKenzie, and she would leave recording sessions early because
she'd get tired. She'd be like, I need to go
to bed, Like I can't handle this. I would be
there all night long to sing two lines as a
(33:18):
backing vocalist. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I just believed in it.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
And I wanted to be there and wanted to be
part of it. And I think that tenacity has served
me really well throughout my whole career. Is it's just like,
I am not the girl that goes home. It's the
same girl who read the entire Bible.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Exactly. She's nuts keep away from her same girl.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Was your path a lot different from your sister's paths?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Yeah, we were very different people. And again I stuck
in at everything I ever did. You know, I took
everything I did seriously. I stuck in at choir, stuck
in at you theater, stuck in at bali.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
You know, my.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Sisters were much less focused than I was. They were
just sort of like, yeah, maybe i'll play the piano
for a bit, but then i'll give that up and
then I'll go riding for a bit. They had less
interest in sort of the arts than I did. And
my big sister, God bless her. All she wanted to
do her whole life was be a nurse. She just
retired actually, but she's a very committed intensive care nurse
(34:22):
and she's a brilliant one.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Do you think being a middle child has influenced your
relationships in the way that you relate to other people,
like even in the band, does that come up the
way that you sort of view life.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Yes, absolutely everything is colored by my position in the family.
And I'm not being flipped. And I actually saw article
in the BBC that they've done a study on this,
and they asked oldest children and youngest children if they
enjoyed their position in the family, and they all apparently
are very high percentage. Geneway said yes, but all the
(35:00):
middle children said they hated the fact that they were
the middle child. And I was one of them. Oh,
I'm beginning now in my old age to go. Actually
it was quite cool because it really twisted me. And
being twisted is really good for being an artist, So
it's okay. It all worked out in the end. But
I was miserable because I felt like I didn't enjoy
(35:20):
any privilege, Like my big sister got to have all
the responsibility and freedom, my little sister got all the coddling,
and I got all the second hand clothes, and it
made me insane, you know, And it also made me
hungry for love and hungry for connection, and that has
(35:46):
been a difficult void to fill in my life.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
You know, Oh that makes.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Me so sad.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah, I don't feel sad.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
It's been good for me and I have an amazing
husband who's.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Fixed the whole. Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
But for so long I realized I was just I
don't know, I was just wanting to feel like somebody
saw me. I felt really invisible as a middle child.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
But then when you go on to become a lead
singer of a band and you occupy that position, which
is the central position, literally with a spotlight on you,
you're considered an it girl. How does that not fill
the whole? I mean, I know it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Well, in some ways it does fill the whole, Like
when I'm standing on stage like you say, right and
nestled in the middle of the band. They're flanking me
and there's a light on me, and I feel seen
and I feel understood. That has fixed it to a
certain degree. But of course you can't spend your whole
life doing that, and so you have to fix yourself
outside of work. And I definitely have done that. But
(36:50):
I do notice I love like even now, like I'll
love sitting in between two people, and I love being.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
A Shirley Sandwich.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
You know, it's it's sort of weird, but I like
really gravitate towards it, like wow, Yeah, it's funny. Yeah,
I'm grateful for it because I really do think it's
helped me in my career. I think it's helped me
be really good at what I do. Yeah, is because
a lot of artists, creative artists are not comfortable in
a live situation.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
They don't enjoy it. They do it because they have to,
you mean.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Live at the stage performing.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, live on stage performing They don't love it. They
don't enjoy it, and I do. I feel like I
might like my most whole self on stage.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I imagine as someone who came up and was super
popular the height of your career, MTV was everything, So
there was such a strong visual component that came along
with the success. Did that visual side of it? Did
that freak you out? Or did it make you feel good?
Speaker 4 (37:54):
I absolutely understood the power of video. Yeah, And I
absolutely understood the power of identity. I'd been in a band,
as I said before, for ten years before I joined Garbage,
and that band had taught me a lot about what
were your tools of the trade, so to speak. In
and so I understood that videos and the visualization of
(38:17):
the band were primary importance, and I put a lot
of energy into that. And I also, having been a
previous clubbing girl, I understood that what you wore was
also important, and I put a lot of weight behind
that too. And that sort of emphasis that I put
on that kind of thing was still quite unusual. It
wasn't part of course, And of course we arrived somewhat
(38:41):
at the tail end of grunge music, where everybody was
sort of playing glamour down. They were crushing glamour. They
were doing sort of a much more sort of low
key presentation, and I was like, I'm bringing in some
club flavors here, and I like wore the neon dresses,
and I wore I wore what I called like sort
of pop star makeup. You know, I wasn't coming out
(39:04):
with disheveled hair and no makeup. I came home with
a full face and glamorous.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Hair, and so I really stood out.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
You know, when we came out, everybody was like, well,
who's this, you know, and so yeah, I did know
that it was a powerful tool, but unfortunately for me.
When I did start attracting a lot of attention, it
became something unpleasant for me. I didn't enjoy the attention
the way I thought I would. I didn't revel in
(39:33):
the attention, and it started to make me a little unhappy.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Do you know why was it different attention than you
were anticipating?
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yeah, it was different kind of attention. I felt a
lot of expectation on my shoulders to present a certain way.
And of course I'm not a particularly vain person, as
I said earlier, like I understood why I had to
present a certain way and it was important, and I
don't think it was born of vanity. I mean, maybe
people that know me better would argue that, but I
(40:01):
don't think so. I just don't think I'm a particularly
vain person. But I had a lot of self doubt
and low physical ast. Yeah, I didn't feel beautiful, and
now looking back, I'm like, my god, you were so beautiful,
but you didn't think you were, you know, And so
I was hard on myself and if I didn't look
like the version of myself that presented on MTV, I
(40:25):
felt I was falling short of the mark, and I
felt I was disappointing everybody, and I was letting the
band down, and that if I was really a good
like music personality or lead singer, I would be able
to achieve the height you know of that I was
achieving on film, I would be able to muster that
in my real life.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
And I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
And therefore I felt, Oh, I'm not meant to be
doing this. I mean, I really did a number on myself.
I was like, I'm not meant to be doing this.
I'm not good enough, I'm not beautiful, stylish enough, I'm
not this, I'm not that, and it just it became
really unhealthy and horrible.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Did you have anybody back then that you could talk
to you about that, any other women who were in
a similar position.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
No, I didn't, And I think that as part of
the problem is a lot of my friends back home,
for whatever reason, just didn't really want to engage with
me about my career. I think it was very difficult,
you know, I think, and this happens a lot. I
think to people who gain public success, you know, a
visibly successful career in the public eye, I think it's
(41:30):
hard on your friends sometimes and it disrupts the power
balance between friends where previously it's all eglitarian and then
their attitude towards you change. Is my attitude didn't change
towards them, but their attitude towards me did, and I
think they projected a lot onto me, and it was
(41:51):
very lonely. And I also, deliberately, and this is on me,
I diminished my own light because I felt it was
hurting the people I loved. And again I'm not saying
this was sane or healthy thinking this was a very
destructive part of my personality, but I would everything. And
then of course you grow up and you start to
(42:12):
resent the fact that you've diminished your success and you've
diminished the things that have happened to you, and you
haven't owned the moments that really were deserving of celebration.
You know, when you meet Madonna, you want to go
home and scream I fucking met Madonna tonight and she
told me I was amazing, and you know, you want
to scream it from the rooftops, but you keep it
(42:32):
to yourself because you know that your friends are not
going to.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Enjoy that particular boast.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Yes, and so it's a very complicated experience. And yeah,
I didn't know any other women in the business, yet okay,
who did what I did? And so yeah, I was
totally on my own. And of course I'm in this
band with three older men who just moved through the
world very differently from me.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
One last break and we back with Shirley Manson.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I really appreciate how open you are about your in
the music industry and how reflective you are. And I
wonder does that have anything to do with you hosting
a podcast and being an interviewer. Do you think you
sort of understand the process in a different way now
after having that experience.
Speaker 4 (43:27):
Well, I definitely understand the process a wee bit better
than I did. I don't think I understand it more.
If anything, I understand it less, and I'm much more
self conscious. I have a deep respect for journalists that
I speak to who I and this never shame on me,
but this never ever struck my mind. But I understand
how much work goes into interviewing somebody I had no idea.
(43:51):
So I have a lot more respect, I guess, for
the process, and I do try and honor it, you know,
because I, yeah, I know what the journalist has done
on the other side, But hosting a podcast was utterly terrifying,
and I really realized how out of my depth I was,
and it cosed me a little distress and stress I
(44:11):
felt because I wanted to honor the person I was interviewing,
and I felt like, of course I didn't want to
just ask the same old, same oen.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Totally.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
Yeah, it caused me a lot of banks to never again.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
I wonder if, though, there is an advantage that you
might have because you know, you're an artist talking to
other artists, and artists naturally feel a lot more comfortable
in that situation with, you know, someone who maybe can
understand just how a creative person might think or move
in the world. So that might actually be a big
advantage that you have as an interviewer.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
I mean maybe, I certainly think there was no suspicion
that I had some kind of high agenda, you know,
so everybody was very relaxed and open with me. It
was me he was uptight. You know, I was the
one who was bringing a lot of stress to the equation.
But you know, there is a certain kind of understanding
with certain artists that you enjoy as a fellow artist.
(45:12):
You know, when you connect with an artist that really
gets you and you really get them. There is a
sort of level that you get to that I don't
believe I've ever gotten to in my life outside of music.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Is there anybody in particular who you've met over the
years who you really had like an instant connection.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
With Peaches and Karen O and Alanis and Liz Fair,
you know, all the women that kind of are in
my sphere. We share a certain kind of understanding and
a trust, I guess with each other. That is very
beautiful and consider a great privilege. You know that I'm
able to communicate with these women and we have these
(45:55):
profound conversations that just if you don't do what we do,
you cannot hold this the same conversation.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
You know what types of things come up in those conversations.
Speaker 4 (46:05):
Well, that's private for that, that's private. That's the witches called.
And what goes on in the coven stays in the coven,
you know. But yeah, can you can just be really
vulnerable with one another? And yeah, we talk about our
rule as artists in the world, you know. And yes,
it's a real gift, Consider a real gift.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Do you remember any moments? I mean, now you can
look back and hopefully celebrate those moments like meeting Madonna
or other big rock star moments where you got to
meet somebody who you just idolized or really respected and
it actually went well, like it was a good experience.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
All of my meetings with my heroes have gone well,
every single one.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Really.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Yeah, I've had like just magical moments.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
For that.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I know myself.
Speaker 4 (46:57):
No, I haven't met a single asshole and they've all
blown me away. But I will attribute some of that
to myself because I had really good taste in the
people that I choose to admire and be a pupil
of in the music industry. Like everybody that I was
obsessed with, I've met all of them.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Who's someone in particular that you can share a story
about I've.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Well, I mean, there's been so many. It feels obscene
to boast, you know, but I've just enjoyed incredible interactions.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
With so many.
Speaker 4 (47:31):
I mean, the funniest one, I'll tell you the funniest one. Okay,
I met Patti Smith. We were at the Montrose Jazz
Festival and she was actually opening for Garbage. This is
how ridiculous the music industry is and how tits up
it gets you know, we were the brand new thing,
so we were given this high position on the bill.
But Pat Smith is opening for us, and I was
obscene and I was embarrassed by it. But anyway, we
(47:55):
driving late on our bus. We get to the venue.
I am starving and I haven't eaten all day and
I get a I don't know how I remember this,
but I got a green tie curry and I I'm
tucking into it and there's a knock on the door
and I go come in. And then there's another knock
on the door and I go come in, and I'm
(48:16):
scoffing this food like a greedy bastard like I am.
And then there's a third knock on the door, and
I go for fox sake, and I get up off
my seat and I throw the door open. And who's
standing there but the Great Patti Smith, a serene and
goddess like as you can imagine, Yes she and very
quietly she said, I just wanted to come by because
(48:37):
I won't have time after my set, and I wanted
to say hi. And I'm like, oh, oh, hi, you know,
trying to be all of a sudden miss nice, you know, mismannerd.
We talk a little, and of course I'm loving to her,
and she's very graceful and elegant, and off she shuffles,
and I shut the door and I sit down and
I put my fork into my green curry and I
look up and there's a mirror right in front of me,
(48:59):
because I'm at my dressing table. I look up in
the mirror and there's green curry sauce all over my face, and.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
I'm just like, oh my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (49:11):
So that is one of the funny moments. I'll never
forget that I was so humiliated and it's all on me.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
So fun Is there anything else about the new album?
I want to make sure you're able to say everything
you want to say about the process or upcoming tour.
Is there anything that we didn't cover?
Speaker 4 (49:33):
I think you've done an amazing job, and I'm so
old over by obviously like the amount of work you
put into this. I mean, we touched on this earlier,
but I'm just really grateful to talk to somebody like you.
You know, as if older woman in the music industry,
how people relate to you shifts, you know, yes, and
(49:54):
you're sort of invisible in a funny way. Yeah, So
to talk to somebody of your caliber and get to
answer really wonderful questions.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
I'm very grateful for.
Speaker 4 (50:04):
I don't I couldn't begin to tell you how many
interviews I've done, you know, over the last few years
where I'm thinking to myself and I have I am
not the most confident, like, sort of believing in myself
kind of person. You know. I don't know, I am
the fucking shit and you should be so thrilled to
talk to me. I'm never like that. I'm just sort
of like, oh my god, I can't believe that Rolling
(50:25):
Stone would want to speak to me.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
I never take it for granted or anything like that.
But sometimes I'm sitting, you know, talking to journalists and
I think, is this really the level that we're at.
I'm an artist, I've been doing this for thirty years,
you know, and you're talking to me about a dress
I wore on stage. You know that you thought made
(50:49):
me look like a green witch? Are you fucking proud
of your mind?
Speaker 2 (50:53):
You know it's a shame on them.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
Oh yeah, well, you know, it's just it is what
it is, right. But as I said, I'm just really
grateful for your time and anybody talking about our work,
our new record in any context, I'm grateful for there's
so many artists out there, there's so many records, and
to be given an opportunity to just say, hey, we've
made this record.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
We think it's really good.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
It is really good. I sec thank you.
Speaker 4 (51:17):
But we made it with a lot of love, you know,
and we have no real expectations of it, but it
has brought us a gift into the world, and I
hope it's received that way, and hopefully it's just a
part another moment in a career that will continue.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
That's what I hope.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, it is going to continue. Thank you so much, Shirley.
I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 4 (51:38):
I appreciate you, Leiah, and thank you. It's been really
lovely talking to you. And I'm yeah, lots of love.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Thank you, good night, bye bye bye.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
An episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist
of our favorite Garbage tracks, as well as their latest album,
Let All That We Imagine Be the Light. Be sure
to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast
to see all of our video interviews, and be sure
to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod.
You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Red. Broken
(52:10):
Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing
help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is
Ben Tolliny. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription
that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four
(52:31):
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember
to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.
Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
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