The Shark That Ate Hollywood: Jaws at 50

Steven Spielberg thought his career was finished. He was behind schedule, his actors were fighting, the crew were mutinous and worst of all, his shark was broken. It looked like Jaws was destined for failure, but the movie that came out defined the Hollywood blockbuster. In this special episode celebrating 50 years of Jaws, we take lessons from the greatest monster movie that almost wasn't made.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. It was a shark bigger than anything previously seen
in these waters, far bigger the great white as an
apex predator, but this specimen was truly at the top
of the food chain. Normally, a shark reaching fourteen, fifteen

(00:39):
or sixteen feet would be considered large, but snout to tailfin,
this monster measured twenty five feet, the length of a
school bus. Its body was thicker too, and its huge
jaws were set with rows of jagged teeth, each one
the size of a shot glass. Most Great Whites are

(01:03):
content to feast on seals, small whales, or other sharks,
but this creep was billed as a true man eater.
This shark would swallow you whole, a little shaking, a
little tenderising, little downyard girl. Rumors of its existence had

(01:26):
swirled around the island community of Martha's Vineyard since the
early summer of nineteen seventy four, but the creature only
surfaced in the waters of Nantucket Sound as July gave
way to August. When it breached, it did so in
full view of several boatloads of horrified witnesses. This bad

(01:49):
fish was the stuff of nightmares, and many there that
day had endured sleepless nights dreading this encounter, but the
reality was so much worse than their feared. We were
very scared, said one onlooker, Richard Zanuk. The shark came

(02:11):
arching out of the water, only it rose tale first,
as if mooning Xanak and his crew. This animatronic prop
would have been funny had so much money and so
many reputations not been in serious jeopardy. Jesus Christ said

(02:35):
movie producer Xanak. We're making a picture called Jaws, and
we don't have a fucking shark. I'm Tim Harford, and
you're listening to another cautionary tale. Marking fifty years of Jaws.

(03:14):
The fiasco of the flopping and flailing mechanical shark was
many months in the future when Hollywood producers Richard Zannak
and David Brown sat down to a sumptuous lunch with
the author of Jaws. Peter Benchley, a jobbing journalist, had
only recently completed his story of an Atlantic resort town

(03:36):
terrorized by a giant shark, devouring locals and vacationers alike.
Being an unknown, Benchle's advance on the hardback had been modest.
In fact, he had been down to the last six
hundred dollars in his checking account when a bidding war
erupted over the paperback rights to his still unpublished novel.

(03:58):
This in turn excited the interest of the movie studios.
At least one film company had sniffed at Jaws and
concluded that it would be fighting off more than it
could chew. It seemed like an impossible tale to bring
to the screen, requiring an absurd budget and pushing the
bounds of any special effects then available. But Xanak and

(04:22):
Brown fell hook line and Sinker for Jaws. They weren't
any richer than the other movie execs bidding for the rights,
but they were confident that they could whoo Peter Benchley
into signing with them. They just promised to make Jaws
a better film than their rival suitors. But over lunch

(04:44):
things were off to a shaky start. The producers, aware
that this would be a tricky film to handle, had
hired a well regarded, well established director to take the helm.
This lunch was an opportunity to introduce him to Benchley.
The director seemed enthusiastic enough and explained his big plans

(05:06):
for filming The Whale. Eventually winced. The director plowed on
opining more about the whale. It was on the third
mention of a whale that Richard Zanak exploded, for God's sake,
this is a fucking shark. The director was duly fired.

(05:29):
For his replacement, Zanak and Brown were excited about a
precocious young talent that'd recently worked with, but did he
have the maturity and authority to keep such a movie
from careering off into disaster. The kid can bring visual
excitement to it, said Zanak, and will give him the
support he needs. The kid was Steven Spielberg. If we'd

(05:57):
read Jaws twice, said Richard Zanak, we might never have
made the movie. To make a picture called Jaws, you
definitely need a shark. The titular Great White is the
heart of the story, and the power of the novel
is in the realistic portrayal of its deadly attacks on humans.

(06:18):
Reading the book, twenty seven year old Stephen Spielberg had
been left terrified. I felt like I'd been attacked, he admitted.
In turn, he wanted audiences jumping out of their cinema
seats as if they'd been hit with an electric cattle
prod and that wasn't going to happen with some scale

(06:38):
model shark and actors on a sound stage in front
of a blue screen Jaws. The movie would get laughed
out of town. Spielberg insisted they film on the actual
ocean and that the shark be as believably scary as possible.

(06:58):
He had no idea what he was demanding. An early
suggestion from the producers was to use a real shark.
Hollywood had a long history of hiring animal wranglers thed
coaxed performances from Lassie the Collie, Flipper the Dolphin, and
cheat At the Chimpanzee. The producers had innocently assumed they

(07:21):
could get a shark trainer, said screenwriter Carl Gottlieb in
his behind the scenes book The Jaws Log With enough money,
Gottlieb wrote that trainer could get a great white to
perform a few simple stumps on Q. No great white
has ever been successfully held in captivity, and wild ones

(07:44):
show scant interest in doing anything but swim and eat
and make little sharks, and even had a wild fish
been enticed into performing on que. Steven Spielberg had no
intention of getting into the water to film the creature.

(08:04):
He was wise. A second unit had been sent to Australia,
where dem foot great whites were common. They were to
film underwater sequences with the diminutive actor standing in for
one of the movie's principal stars. Less than five feet tall.
This former jockey would make the real sharks looked much bigger.

(08:26):
The pint sized stuntman was protected from harm by a
steel cage, but as he prepared to enter it, an
excited great white lunged for the boat and became tangled
in the lines, lowering the cage into the water. A
frenzy thrashing and rolling of the wan Ton shark crushed
the cage like a beer cat. The actor then reportedly

(08:55):
locked himself away in a cabin, refusing to come out
until they were safely tied up at the dock. The
footage was great that this was clearly no way to
make a whole film, As Carl got leeb Riley observed,
you couldn't work with a star who when you shouted
action instead heard lunchtime guys. Right now. Hold that Spielberg,

(09:21):
a film buff since childhood, had the answer. Disney The
Giants Squid in Disney's twenty thousand Leagues under the sea
had been terrifyingly realistic. Let just hire the guy who
made that to create their giant mechanical shark. So sixty

(09:41):
four year old Bob Matty was brought out of retirement
and in a Californian shed, he began work on three
fake sharks. One hundred and seventy five thousand dollars had
been budgeted for each of these three automatons at a
time when a luxury Cadillac coup Deville could be yours

(10:02):
under eight thousand jewels was slated for release in time
for Christmas ninety teen seventy four, less than a year. Hence,
so time was incredibly short. The fake fish would need
to be working and in the waters off Martha's Vineyard
in May, so principal photography could wrap before pesky tourists

(10:26):
flocked to the resort come July. As Spielberg began storyboarding
his film with a rearing, snapping shark. In scene after scene,
the mechanical creatures took shape what Mattie was, indeed a
special effects wizard. His models could swim and flap their tails,

(10:48):
their jaws were chomped, and their eyes would roll. It
was all quite magnificent. The film crew headed east to
start work, confident that the shark team would follow close behind.
Spielberg playfully nicknamed the sharks Bruce, after Bruce Raemer, one
of his lawyers. Each Bruce was a marvel and by

(11:13):
far the most ambitious practical movie effects ever created. If
only someone had tested them in seawater, putionary tales will
return in a moment. Steven Spielberg and his exasperated crew

(11:39):
soon had new nicknames for the malfunctioning model sharks. Jaws
was replaced by Flaws. The special effects team were rechristened
Special Defects. When things got really bad, Spielberg called his
mechanical actors great white turds. Each Bruce had performed well

(12:02):
in freshwater tests, but on the rough ocean and in
corrosive saltwater, every began to fail. The lifelike neoprene sharkskins
soaked up water, adding vast weight to the model. This
seawater also degraded the special paint coating, requiring new pigment

(12:24):
to be flown out from California every day at great expense.
The sharks were bolted to intricate platforms attached to the seabed,
which became gummed up with barnacles and kelp. The hydraulic
hoses that made each bruce waggle began to fray, and
worst of all, the electric switches that controlled their complex

(12:48):
movements shorted out. The first time a bruce was towed
out to sea and placed in the water, it sank.
Bob Matty, like Victor Frankenstein, defended his monstrous creation from
the angry film crew and promised things would sooner improve,

(13:10):
but it was clear Steven Spielberg's plans were in tatters.
The script was filled with shark. He lamented, shark here,
shark there, shark everywhere. The young director filmed what he could,
interior scenes, scenes on the docks, scenes on the beach,

(13:32):
street scenes, all the time hoping Bob Matty would perform
a miracle, but deep down fearing that his burgeoning directorial
career was about to sink without trace. The producers had
budgeted for a tight fifty five day location shoot that

(13:52):
when the last of those days rolled around June the
twenty sixth, not a single frame of mechanical shark footage
had been captured. The opening scene of Jaws. Both a
book and film is the savage death of lone swimmer

(14:12):
Chrissy Watkins. Chrissy, oblivious to the killer shark cruising nearby,
takes a leisurely moonlight skinny dip. The awfulness of Chris's death,
with the shark toying with her as she cries for help,
sets the tenor for the rest of the story. Spielberg

(14:34):
thought that having Bruce burst from the water jaws agape
would have been a spectacular opening for the film that
just wasn't going to happen. In Peter bench His's novel,
Poor Chrissy never sees the beast that attacks her in
the dark, and Spielberg followed suit, using a specially designed

(14:56):
waterproof box and put his camera at water level to
show Chrissy being tossed and mauled by an assailant just
beneath the surface. The actor playing Chrissy was strapped into
a harness with ropes, leading to two teams of stage
hands on the beach on queue they'd whip her to
and throw in the sea, though the instructions became confused

(15:20):
and the woman was pulled both ways at once, dragging
her under. It's this take where the actor's terror is
possibly real that made the final film, but she wasn't

(15:40):
the only person on set struggling to keep her head
above water. Spielberg's bosses back in Hollywood started to suggest
that the film be shut down. The young director was
losing confidence in the project too, fearing it would be
a turkey. His demands for realism were coming back to

(16:00):
haunt him. We were a bunch of upstarts who thought
we could take on the ocean, said Spielberg. And you
can't take on the ocean. Filming one scene, again using

(16:22):
cinematic sleight of hand to make up for the lack
of a working bruce, a boat was being tugged and
towed to simulate an unseen shark that was ramming it.
The motion proved too violent and the boat sprang a
leak and began to list. She's going over went up
the cry as a rescue craft race to save the actors.

(16:45):
This concern for the talent annoyed both the camera crew,
who were about to lose one thousand feet of precious
film to the sea, and the seventy year old soundman
who held his fifty thousand dollars tape recorder over his
head and bellowed, fuck the actors, save the sound apartment.

(17:06):
Such incidents didn't exactly endear Spielberg to his crew. They
viewed him as a sort of Captain Blygh and mutiny
was only ever a whisker away. They didn't have scurvy
or anything, said Spielberg, explaining their anger. But I wouldn't
let them go home. Screenwriter Carl Gottlieb thought the filmmakers

(17:31):
were falling apart before his eyes. Cold bored missing home
and missing out on other work, he worried that mental
exhaustion and alcoholism was on the horizon. Sensibly, a beer
ban was introduced at sea. Shooting a movie on location

(17:53):
is a laborious business, but on water progress proved glacial
even without the misbehaving bruces. The tides dragged boats off
their marks, Unexpected storms brewed, and actors fell over board,
causing more delay as dry costumes and fresh makeup were

(18:13):
sent for. The script also called for a horizon clear
of other craft, since when the film's hero set off
to kill Jaws, they're supposed to be far from help
of any kind. But as the summer of nineteen seventy
four progressed, Martha's vineyard became its usual magnet for yachts

(18:34):
and pleasure boaters. Each time a boat came into frame,
the camera stopped and the crew moodily waited for it
to pass. Every hour of filming at sea was costing
two thousand dollars, and back on land the budget for
food and accommodation was rocketing as the island's economy switched

(18:57):
to summer pricing. No one has ever taken a film
one hundred days over schedule, fretted Spielberg. I'll never work again.
Jaws should never have been made. It's a piece of shit.
Actor Robert Shaw, himself an accomplished novelist, was no fan

(19:21):
of Peter Benchley's story. The forty eight year old British
star was a late addition to the cast, signing on
just days before production started. Despite his reservations about the
source novel, the Experience Shakespearean reluctantly agreed to play quint,
a grizzled and fiery shark fisherman. Shaw was a masterful actor,

(19:45):
but he had a flaw. I do tend to drink
when totally bored, he admitted, and with the constant delays
on set, Shaw got bored totally bored. A production assistant
was charged with keeping the actor off the booze, but
the second Spielberg's boat chugged out of the harbor, Share

(20:07):
would nod his head towards the nearest bar. Let's go kid.
Another of Robert Shaw's predilections proved even more disruptive than
his drunkenness. Shaw developed a deep antipathy for one of
his co stars, and as they spent hour after hour
at sea together, Shaw made his dislike for the man

(20:31):
all too clear. He could be vicious, said Richard Dreyfus,
the young actor playing a cocky marine biologist to Shaw's
weatherbeaten seafarer. Shaw didn't appreciate Dreyfus's approach to acting, nor
his lack of stage credits. He'd even whisper criticisms of

(20:52):
his co star's performance seconds before a scene. Just as
Spielberg was shouting action, the older star began calling Dreyfus
fat and sloppy, and complained that Dreyfus never stopped talking.
It got ugly, said Spielberg. A particular low came when

(21:14):
a scene required Dreyfus to be showered with sea spray,
so Shaw, off camera grabbed the fire hose supplying the
water and directed it straight into his co star's face.
The cycle of humiliation was repeated day after day. Shaw's
frustration and boredom prompted him to drink, and the drink

(21:37):
awakened in Shaw what Dreyfus described as an evil troll.
Shaw's a perfect gentleman whenever he's sober, said an observer.
All he needed was one drink, and then he turned
into a son of a bitch. Perhaps weary of attacking
Dreyfus over his acting, Shaw began to set his co

(22:00):
star outlandish challenges, asking Dreyfus to perform press ups and
sit ups to prove himself. Finally, Sure proposed a wager
for one hundred dollars, would Dreyfus climb to the top
of a tall mast on their boat and jump off
into the ocean. He had my number, said Dreyfus, who

(22:21):
found himself unable to just ignore Shaw's bullying. Jaws was
now weeks behind schedule and millions over budget. The crew
were rebelling, the locals were increasingly resentful of their presence,
and Bruce, the mechanical shark, was still not working. Could

(22:44):
things get any worse? Perhaps if one of the movie's
lead actors took a high dive off a mast and
into the brooding ocean, cautionary tales will be back. I
don't care how much money he offers you. You're not

(23:06):
jumping off the mast. Not in my movie. Steven Spielberg
had finally intervened in the battle between his stars. Shaw's
bet with Dreyfus was off. The director could stall the studio,
shutting him down over the malfunctioning sharks and the unreliable weather,
but not if he let one of his stars drown

(23:28):
on a Dare this excitement over the more normal rhythm
of the location shoot resumed? Delay, delay, delay, and still
no working roofs.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Have that belt fully anchor up and reset?

Speaker 1 (23:45):
About Gerald. We spent a lot of time trying to
figure out how to make this movie, sitting around for
seven eight hours waiting for the shark to work, said Spielberg.
This all sounds infuriating, but maybe these delays made Jaws

(24:07):
not worse, but better. Do you do your best work
under a bit of time pressure against a tight deadline.
Say if your answer is yes, then you're not alone.
It's certainly not uncommon to hear people say that creativity

(24:28):
is spurred on by a ticking clock. In April nineteen seventy,
an explosion wrecked the oxygen tanks inside Apollo thirteen yestin
we've had a problem. The three astronauts inside were headed
for the Moon, but now had to hunker down in

(24:49):
the small lunar module designed to hold just two. If
the men were to survive the trip home, they'd need
to improvise a system to remove deadly carbon dioxide from
the air in their craft, using only the items available inside,
from bits of cardboard to plastic. Okay, that's two lithium

(25:12):
hydroxide canisters and one roll of that special gray ape.
At mission control, engineers work feverishly to bodge something together
and compose a list of verbal instructions which would be
clear enough for the cold, tired and oxygen starved astronauts

(25:32):
to follow. Okay, removed the inner bag from the outer bag,
cut the inner bag along the heat seal along one
side the filter built in this way wasn't pretty, but
it worked and the men were saved. A win. Then,
for creativity under pressure, an evidence that deadlines focused the mind. Well,

(25:58):
The Harvard Business Review wasn't convinced. Two thousand and two
paper Creativity under the Gun examined examples where indeed time
pressure had produced impressive results, such as the Apollo thirteen explosion,
but the author's actual research findings were more surprising. Theresa A. Marblay, Constance,

(26:22):
Noonan Hadley, and Stephen Kramer collected nine thousand diary entries
from one hundred and seventy seven employees across seven US companies,
then asked those workers to note how time pressure they
felt during the day, but also described something that stood
out in their minds about each day. In a sad

(26:43):
indictment of the modern workplace, most of the diarists felt
they were operating under time pressure nearly every day. While
some workers felt burned out by this, others did renish it,
writing that their teams were pulling together and making progress.
But when the half of business reviewed team dug a
little deeper, they found that far from being spurred on

(27:06):
like NASA's Apollo thirteen engineers, workers under the gun were
usually less creative. Working in a hurry often means firefighting
and multitasking, scheduling meetings, replying to emails, attending meetings, applying
to more emails, leaving precious little time to focus on
the primary work task at hand. One comment that summed

(27:30):
up most of the diaries was the faster I run,
the behind it I get, and the first thing to
get jettisoned when time was tight seemed to be creativity.
Just five percent of the thousands and thousands of diary
entries written on busy days reported that any playful and

(27:51):
creative work had been produced. The Harvard Business Review authors
argued that, of course creativity was possible under a time crunch,
but only in very specific circumstances. The Apollo thirteen engineers
were able to give the carbon dioxide problem therefore attention,
no multitasking for them, and the imminent deaths of the

(28:14):
astronauts gave them more than enough motivation to see their
task through. But in most situations, the experts concluded that
the cornerstones of creative work exploration, idea, generation, and experimentation
just didn't happen when workers were scrambling against the deadline.

(28:35):
Don't be fooled into thinking that time pressure will in
itself spur creativity, the Harvard Business Review warned bosses. That's
a powerful illusion, but an illusion. Nonetheless, Jaws began as
the ultimate tight deadline movie. The producers wanted the film

(28:59):
to wrap in just fifty five days before high summer
on Martha's vineyard and ready for Christmas nineteen seventy four,
the traditional release season, but also in time to benefit
from the buzz around the novel. This was a mammoth task. First,
Spielberg had to turn Peter Benchley's sprawling book, with its

(29:22):
endless side plots and incongruous sex scenes, into a workable script.
Robert Sure wasn't the only person to think that the
novel was a piece of shit. Spielberg supposedly said the same,
which got back to Peter Benchley. Spielberg knows flatly zero,
retorted the novelist, he is b movie literate. The round

(29:46):
blew over. But Spielberg then had to find someone other
than Benchley to crank out a screenplay, storyboard, the resulting script,
cast the roles, set Bob Matty to work on his sharks,
and establish a floating location shoot. All this in a
matter of weeks. Talk about multitasking. Much as Peter Benchley

(30:12):
was wrong to insult Spielberg's storytelling skills, the director himself
admits that in all the hurry, he was in danger
of making a fairly standard monsterflick, one where the shark
might be seen in the very first scene. But the
constant delays gave him room to reconsider. It was good

(30:35):
fortune that the shark kept breaking, says Spielberg, because I
had to be resourceful figuring out how to create suspense
and terror without seeing the shark itself. The script went
through several iterations that what made it to the screen
was the version Spielberg hammered out at night in the

(30:56):
house he shared with Carl Gottlieb on Martha's vineyard. This
fits with another finding of the Harvard Business Review. Creativity
comes with collaboration, but most especially when just two confederates
work together. The paper argued that having a single focal
point to bounce new ideas off might help people stay

(31:20):
oriented toward the work. The other thing that Spielberg had
spare time for thanks to the delays was working with
his actors. The director had found the characters in Benchley's
novel too flat and unlikable, but he hit on a
way to make them more appealing and relatable. He encouraged

(31:43):
his cast to improvise sure Dreyfuss and the rest would
belly ache about sitting around waiting for the shark to work,
but they also had time to really think about their performances.
One of the film's greatest lines, when Jaws surfaces right
beside Robert Shaw's fishing vessel, the Orca, and he's told,

(32:05):
you're going to need a pleigo Podge, was pure insation
and never in the script. Likewise a monologue delivered by
share In it, his character explains that his deep hatred
for sharks stems from a grizzly wartime experience being shipwrecked

(32:25):
in waters infested with them.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
No distress signal of vincent.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
This speech had already passed through the hands of several
script doctors, but Shaw edited the lines and took them
to Spielberg and Gottlieb after dinner one evening. I think
I have a version that will work. He told them.
It was a showstopper, said Richard Dreyfus, whose character sits
beside shore as he tells the grim tale of his

(32:54):
shipmates getting eaten one by one.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
You know the thing about a shaggy again, lifeless eyes,
black eyes like a doll's eye. When he comes Outdie
doesn't seem to me Lewin until he bides you, and
those black eyes roll over white and then ah, then
you hear that terrible, high pitched screaming, the ocean turned

(33:22):
redden speed of all the pound and the horror and
the arkme in the repeated pieces.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Dreyfus and Shaw had been at loggerheads throughout production. Sitting
together hour after hour in boredom had sparked a bitter conflict,
but more canny observers saw some method to Shaw's mad
baiting of his co star. I think it was absolutely planned,
said one of the crew. Sure knew the plot called

(33:55):
for antagonism between his salty old mariner and the cocky,
upstart marine biologist. If Shaw could get Drayfus to hate
him in real life, then further acting wouldn't be required.
The malfunctioning Bruss just gave Shaw the time he needed
for his plan to play out, and interestingly, Shaw's show

(34:21):
stopping monologue marks a pivot in the script by showing
his vulnerability and humanity. The fisherman wins over the marine biologist,
and of friendship blossoms in real life. Shaw's baiting of
Dreyfuss also stopped the second Spielberg called cut on the scene.

(34:45):
On August eighteenth, nineteen seventy four, weeks and weeks behind schedule,
Bob Matty's Sharks began to work as planned. Filming wrapped
on September the eighteenth, though the director hadn't stuck around
for the final shots. He had caught wind of a
coup plot to throw him in the water. The second

(35:05):
the camera stopped rolling, he wisely fled back to La
to avoid their disgruntlement. The endless delays had taken their toll.
Spielberg began having nightmares regularly for the next three months.
There were still pickups to shoot, including a scene completed

(35:27):
in the warm tranquility of an La swimming pool and editing. Jaws,
now wildly over budget, would miss its lucrative Christmas release window.
But the film was good, excellent. Even test audiences loved it,
and the critics were bowled over. A problem plagued film

(35:51):
turned out beautifully, wrote Variety. The critics were especially impressed
by Spielberg's restraint in not showing the shark for the
first eighty two minutes of the film, making the unseen
beast all the more terrifying for its invisibility. The lack
of explicit carnage also had the added bonus of making

(36:16):
Jaws a PG movie, meaning whole families could go see it,
and widening its box office potential. Summer was until then
a dead zone for new releases, but Jaws upended that.
It turned a profit just two weeks after opening in
June nineteen seventy five, and by Labour day it was

(36:38):
the most successful motion picture in history. The age of
the summer blockbuster had dawned and Hollywood was transformed, and
this runaway success of Jaws was in no small part
down to the delays caused by Bob Matty and his

(36:59):
mooning fish. The key sources for this episode were the
Jaws log by Carl Gottlieb and Joseph McBride's Steven spielberg
a biography. For a full list of sources, go to
Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales as written by me Tim

(37:30):
Harford with Andrew Wright, Alice Fines, and Ryan Dinny. It's
produced by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. The sound design
and original music are the work of Pascal Wise. Additional
sound design is by Carlos San Juan at Brain Audio Bender.
Dapfhaffrey edited the scripts. The show features the voice talents

(37:51):
of Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough, Sarah Jupp, Messaam Monroe,
Jamal Westman, and rufus Wright. The show also wouldn't have
been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Retta Cohne,
Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, Pose and
Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries.

(38:15):
It's recorded at ward Or Studios in London by Tom Barry.
If you like the show, please remember to share, rate
and review. It really makes a difference to us and
if you want to hear the show, add free sign
up to Pushkin Plus on the show page on Apple
Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm, slash plus