June 28, 2021 • 27 mins
The role most people know David Boies for is not “husband.” But our interview with this legendary litigator and his whipsmart wife showed us how tragic loss, and a few well considered compromises (involving Las Vegas), can lead to an “upward spiral of kindness” — and a marriage that any couple would envy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and
we're going on a series of double dates to find
out what makes a marriage last. I don't often find
(00:40):
myself hanging out with a pair of heavy hitting lawyers
just for fun. But when Marlo and I had the
chance to sit down with David and Mary boys, that's
exactly what it was. They're an incredible couple. I mean,
when David met Mary, she was the assistant director for
the Domestic Policy Staff under President Jimmy Carter and David
(01:02):
was chief counsel for Ted Kennedy. Well, you don't get
more power couple than that, certainly not. When we say
d down to chat with them, we were eager to
know about their first meeting. Were they cautious lawyers or
was the attraction immediate? It took me about twelve seconds.
He wasn't married, always good he was really smart, he
(01:27):
was very good looking, and he had a little money
in his pocket. So and he was a nice guy
would have liked so it took me twelve seconds. Took
him a while, No, it didn't take me very long.
But what did you think, did you? I thought she
was really sexy, which at that stage was very high
(01:51):
priority for me and very smart. Yeah, And I asked
her out the next time I was in Washington. But
we were negotiating at that time because Kennedy. We were
working on airline deregulation, and Kennedy had a bill that
was very radical. President Carter supported a bill that was
(02:13):
more moderate, and so we had negotiating sessions with me
and six or eight other people from the administration, different agencies,
and then him and I said to my colleagues, we
are not negotiating with this man. And they said, well why,
I said, no offense, But he's a hundred times smarter
(02:34):
than all of us put together. That was nineteen seventy
and you get married, and that was a long time.
You waited. Well, he'd been married twice, yes, And people
were warning me, you know, this guy marries, but he
(02:55):
doesn't really stay with people. And that was fine with
me because I'd already been married. I sort of got
that out of my system. But once I moved to
New York, I thought, I'm not going to live in
New York and not be married. So are we getting
married or am I moving back to Washington. That's good.
I don't remember quite that way. I mean, I don't
(03:19):
remember I remember me asking you. I don't remember you
bring it up to me, but you might have what
gave you the optimism to get married a third time? Oh,
I was just too much in love. And were you
a little nervous about marrying a guy who'd been married
twice before? Absolutely? And I figured, well, we won't have children,
(03:42):
and it'll be fun as long as it lasts, and
then I'll do something else. Why did you think you
wouldn't have children? Because he already had four and I
knew that if we had children then I'd be really
in in this marriage. And how old were you this time?
Thirty two? That's a good age to get married. It
was a wonderful age. And the first child came when
(04:05):
I was thirty three, and then the second when I
was thirty five, and it was just good timing. I
wasn't anxious to get married. I wasn't looking to get married.
But you know, every time I saw him, I went
week in the knees and I thought, that's a good sign.
And it's still true. Yeah, that's a great sign. Well,
(04:28):
I have a mental picture of your evenings together. First
of all, you both have your computer, and I would
think that in the evening hours you have a hard
time not being on them. Here's a typical night. We
go out to dinner a lot, and we go out
(04:49):
just the two of us a lot when we can
and have We call them dates. They are dates, and
a typical dinner starts with sweetheart, did you see what
the Supreme Court did this morning? Can you believe that?
Or what do you think of this opinion? Our very
first real date, we talked about the IBM anti trust
(05:11):
case for two and a half hours. Well, I was fascinated.
Well this was this was after after though, after she
had appeared like ninety minutes late because there had been
some crisis in the White House and she had had
to stay and work on it, which she thought was
(05:32):
entirely understandable because she was working for the President of
United States. I thought, if it was an efficient president
of the United States, he would have had his work done.
But so it was. We did get to the ibmount
of trust case, but only after she arrived and we'd
went through what she'd been doing. That's true. Would you
wait at ninety minutes I did. I didn't know she
(05:53):
was She was definitely worth waiting for no cell phones
in those days. Yeah, yeah, that's right, there was no.
I mean because I was on the phone constantly, constantly, constantly.
I was asked to get something done, and it was
not something that could be done out of the White House, right.
And it was a Friday night, and it was getting
(06:14):
later and later and later, and I was just on
two lines, three lines. It was. It was fun and
wonderful and crazy, and I'd look at the watch and say, oh,
I wonder if he's still there. That's amazing. It's like
Phil gave a party in Chicago for me, for all
(06:35):
the people in Chicago that he worked with him that
he knew, and the movie critic and the TV critic
and the newspaper people. I was very excited about it.
And I was producing a movie add that I was
also starring him, and I was supposed to begin the
music score on Tuesday. The composer had a heart attack,
(06:56):
and so my co producer said, you can't go away
this weekend. We're going to have to write an entire
score by Tuesday. So I called Phil and I say, um, oh,
I'm you know, so thrilled that you're giving this party
for me. But I have sort of bad news. I
(07:20):
can't come. Hey, you're kidding right anyway, So he gave
these two hundred people came to his house. He had
a tent, he had a bandy at all these people,
and there is no molo And I know that, and
I really thought, you know, this is it. This guy's
gonna like dump meet tomorrow. So these things happen to me.
(07:42):
When you're dealing with people who are in responsible jobs,
you can't you you can't walk out on the president,
and I can't walk out on a movie that I
have to deliver it. And these men who marry us
or who stay in love with us through that, you know,
they have to be the kind of menical handle of
that who can take that. I think it's important to
(08:04):
I mean, because I think you know, part of what
you know makes relationships work is each of you being
interested in the other and interested in what the other
is doing and how to help the other. Right, you
do talk about shop. We do. We talked about a
lot of other things, but but we do talk about
it because, um, you know, if if you've got a
(08:28):
difficult case, difficult legal problem or factual problem, you know
it's good to just be able to talk it through
with somebody who's a knows what you're doing and be
as smart, and the three is sort of thoughtful and
and finally and finally is patient. You know, because the
(08:50):
more you get into something that's really complicated, the deeper
you get into it, the fewer and fewer people are
interested in that level of detail. If I tell somebody like, um,
I've got a maybe a very interesting case where I'm
trying to sue health insurance for price fixing and I
(09:15):
trust violations, that's sort of interesting to people because they
want to improve the healthcare system and big companies getting
together and conspiring is kind of interesting. But then you
begin to get into the second and third, and fourth,
and fifth and sixth level of detail, and you began
talking about how many you know insurance there are in
this county and Alabama and nobody, you know, unless it's
(09:41):
your spouse, interested in that, And what do you have
to prove under section two of the Clayton in order
to win this? You understand, and I'm fascinated by it.
And so we talk about law, we talk about politics,
We talk a lot about history. We debate, you know,
(10:02):
did eisenhowerd do the right thing here. It's fun. But
when our children were growing up, they s times thought
we were arguing because they didn't understand what we were
talking about. We're talking intensely and you know, yeah, and
well you were debating, yeah exactly, you know, because we don't.
We don't entirely agree on everything. And that's good too. Yeah,
(10:25):
were you married to a lawyer before? No, I was
married to a college professor. And what were you ever
married to a lawyer? Yes? Both my former wives of ours?
Really huh, there's a there's a theme. I mean, I
think I think it's important that you have different interests,
but it's also important that you share some interests, right,
(10:47):
and it's important that they understand what you're doing. So yeah, yeah,
In many ways, you're chewing up time that might otherwise
be devoted to differences that cause anger and yeah, right, yeah,
and the words, it saves you from what other couples
(11:08):
might devote to conflict. And that's true, although often we
have friendly disagreements. You know, I think the court went
too far on this or when Clarence Thomas said X,
I didn't see any basis for that, and then he
would say, well, you've got to look at it this way. So, yes,
(11:31):
we avoid topics of conflict, but we have lively disagree.
I have a lawyers fight. That's interesting. Well, I mean,
I think I think actually one thing I hadn't really
thought about this before, but but I think maybe one
thing that helps in times of conflict is being lawyers
(11:52):
because as lawyers you understand that there are different points
of view. You're always dealing with somebody who has a
different point of view, and and you understand that somebody
who is your adversary is not your enemy. But I think,
I think more important is it if you keep in
context disputes, disagreements. If you get angry, and you keep
(12:18):
that in the context of the overall relationship, you don't,
you're not likely to powder go off or or stay
angry very long because you understand that it's such a
tiny part of your relationship, in such a small part
(12:39):
of your time together. As a couple, They've had a
lot of joy, but no shortage of tragedy either. David
in particular, has had his share of heartbreak. I've lost
two children. Oh yeah, my daughter had lung cancer. My
son and this aneurism. She was forty eight, and he
(13:00):
was fifty terrible. My job was to be there. There's
nothing you can say. You're never the same when you
lose a child. So I m. When we first heard
that Jonathan was in a bad way, you said, I,
(13:20):
I can't do this again, and I said you can
and we will, we must and and we are. Ye.
That's what marriage is kind of for, to be the
cushion of life. Right. When my father died, I loved
him so much and he was my best friend ever.
(13:43):
You know, I was a real daddy's girl. And when
he died, I just, I mean I just grieved something terrible.
You know. I went to a shrink that I had
gone to years before, and I said, I, this is like,
is this sick that I'm crying so much? You know?
What is? You know? He said, no, this is what
(14:04):
life is. He said, And this is why some people
don't commit to love, Yeah, because they know at the
end somewhere something's going to happen. The loss is gonna happen.
Right And Phil, God, Phil just brought me through it
and had my mom come and live with us for
three months. I mean, and she was a mess and
(14:24):
I was a mess. He just entertained us everybody invited people.
He took us out. I mean it was just we
both my mother and I were both basket cases. But
he really came through it, really, And that's the cushion. Oh,
a good Irish man, a good Irish lad. Yeah, we'll
(14:45):
have more. After a quick break, we're back to our
conversation with David and Mary. Boys. They're both so smart.
It's hard to believe that David was dropping out after
high school. I mean, I don't know what would happened
(15:06):
if my first wife had not gotten me go to college.
But why didn't you want to go? I didn't like school.
I'm dyslexic. As I got further along in school, reading
was I didn't really like reading the law? How did
you do it? I listened well. I can learn almost
everything I wanted just listening in class to my professors.
(15:27):
I'm still not a great reader, but I mean I
didn't read at all until I was in third grade. Nothing.
The most important thing is to understand that it is
an input problem. It's not a processing problems. It is
an ability to absorb information. It's not how well you think.
(15:48):
I mean, there's no negative correlation between dyslexia and intelligence. Right,
But all those facts that you have to gather in
order to make a case, all the research I have
to do, and I do have to do some reading.
But as I said, I listened really well. I think
it has taught me to organize my thoughts, to simplify things,
(16:13):
see how the things are important, because you can't read everything.
That's breathtaking. It really is. I bet you can't imagine it, right.
I'm not hard wired that way, but I don't have
his processing power. But it's fun to live with. So
(16:34):
where are you on the jealousy meter? I'm sicilian, I'm
very jealous. David has friends who are women, and they
are friends, and I was jealous for a while, but
then I put that away. I said, how did you
deal with it? I said, you know what, if he
wanted to be with him, he'd be with him. He's
(16:56):
left two wives, he knows how to do it. He
doesn't want to be here, He'll just go off. So
why am I thinking about this? I figured we off
and had his former wives or one of them come
on vacations because they're grandchildren and children were there, and
(17:19):
he asked me, once, do you mind if Carol comes
on the Christmas trip, I thought his first wife, and
I thought, why would I mind? Because her four children
who were still growing up and then grandchildren were on
those trips, and you're spending a week in the Caribbean.
How can I say grandmother can't be there. So I
(17:41):
said him myself, if he wanted to be with her,
he would be with her. So yeah, bring her on.
And I really meant that. And it's been good, and
it's good for the children. Yeah, I'm sure it is,
but I'm not jealous of them at all. His second
wife is a friend of mine. Yeah. When I met her,
(18:02):
I sort of gasped and thought, that's me ten years older.
That's how this works. Okay, you know, it'll be fun
while it last. Turns out it did last. One of
the things I think that we've learned from a lot
of these couples is that people a change things about
(18:22):
themselves in order to accommodate another person. Well. Well, I mean,
for example, she wanted to tear down my house, and
that seemed to me at the time to be a
really bad idea, because I thought it was a perfectly
(18:42):
good house, a ranch style, hideous of rubbish. It was.
It was a nicer house than I'd ever lived in
my life until then, and I thought it was I
thought it was perfectly good. Now I eventually understood that
building another house was more important to her than keeping
(19:03):
the house that we had was to me. And once
I understood that, I was perfectly happy to tear down
the house and build a new one. And as in
so many things, she was right, because this is a
much nicer house, and I'm much happier here than I
would have been if we hadn't torn down the durned
(19:23):
the house and built this one. But you were able
to not make that a power struggle and just and
just say, Okay, this means more to her than to me.
It does. And also and also you know, there are
lots of things that I don't do so well, and
a lot of things that I don't know so well
that she knows better than I do and does better
than I do. Each of us is very conscious of
(19:48):
if there's something that's more important to the other than
it is to us, that we just decide to do
it the way the other one wants to. For example,
one of the things that I did before we were
married was I would go to Las Vegas often and
when we got married. Um, Mary despised Las Vegas. She
(20:14):
you know, I mean the first time we went, she
pointed out that most of the men there were wearing
more jewelry than she was. And um, I mean she
there was almost nothing there that she really liked. But um,
and then then she realized that I enjoyed going there,
(20:37):
and um, and I'd like to gamble, and I liked
the shows, and I liked and I liked the ambiance
and um and so she um uh and not grudgingly.
When you do something for somebody, don't do it grudgingly.
Don't don't make them feel that you're doing them a favor.
And she has sort of embraced going to Las Vegas.
(20:59):
And I think, although she may tell you differently when
the microphones are off and you're a private, but I
think she actually enjoys going there. How often do you go?
Probably three or four times a year, wow, to Vegas?
See what I did? I used to I used to
go six times a year. Wow. I used to go
(21:20):
every other month, but but now about three or four times.
I lost twenty dollars and I was depressed. I didn't
have twenty dollars worth of fun. Yeah, right back when
I didn't have a chance. Well what about you though, Well,
here's what I did. I figured out, okay, this gee,
(21:42):
I thought he was so intelligent. Here we are going
to lost Vegas. Now. He never went crazy, you know,
he never lost a lot of money. You know, he
never gambled the house. Yeah. And I decided, all right,
he likes to do this, I don't. We do stuff
I like to do that he doesn't like to do.
(22:04):
So we'll leave in it out. And I said, what
can I do there that I like? I like to
hit tennis balls. So we would go there and I
would hire the pro and I'd spend the afternoon on
the tennis court. And I was perfectly happy. Yeah, and
I so I just decided, he likes to do this,
(22:25):
We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't,
and so I'll find a niche Yeah, and I did.
I find. Now it's fun to go that's and the
shows are good. That's I think I can never stamp good. Yeah.
And so what are some of the things that he
does for you that that he doesn't like to do
(22:47):
what you like to do. I might be wrong about this,
but when we first started taking bike trips as a vacation, right,
a vacation. You're you know, you're grinding your way about. Yeah,
that's Our first bike trip was twenty nine, nine years ago,
(23:10):
and we've been doing them ever since. Really we do
two or three a year. Wow. And it's perfectly clear
that he does that. I think, you know, it's like
me in Las Vegas. I think now kind of like it.
I have come to sort of like it. Um, but
um in the beginning the idea of um, I mean,
(23:32):
you get it. These bike trips. You go for a
week and you and you travel like forty fifty sometimes
sixty miles a day, Oh my god, and get up
early and um you so hey, I don't like to
get up early, be I don't really dislike exercise, but
(23:54):
not a high priority for me. I'm just fascinated that
you do these bike trips. I'm gonna really. One of
the nice things is that we're together the entire day,
nothing else happening. You know, we can just ride together,
talk and it's very peaceful. Yeah. There came a time
when I said to you, whatever you want to do,
(24:17):
I want to do wow, And I thought to myself,
here you are. You're a lawyer. You're a feminist and
you're saying to this man, whatever you want. And I thought,
good grief, it's come to this. But a lot of
things changed. It wasn't a negotiation anymore. The next day
(24:42):
he became a nicer person who was and it became
an upward spiral. I think that's kindness, and it changed everything.
And I remember if, well, actually, whatever you want to Taiwan,
because I really felt the same way. We decided. I
don't know, ten years into our marriage, we've been bickering
(25:02):
about unimportant things, and we just decided are we in
or are we out married? Or aren't we? If we're married,
let's make that a really good thing. And so when
we disagree on stuff, and I think he has an
eye with what's really important here, a great, loving marriage.
(25:26):
So he's dead wrong on this issue, Who cares? I
don't really, I don't have to win every argument. Is
one of you more likely to be the peacemaker or
oh me? Of course? No, I don't think either one
of us. Yea, I would not say. I think we
kind of trade around on that. I would say either
(25:48):
one of us. I think that we're both pretty good.
As I say at keeping things in context. I'm married
to someone who is not your typical great lawyer. He
is off the charts. I use that to my advantage.
I don't resent that, you know, I learned stuff from him.
(26:08):
I still are you, I respond, but you pretty much
dazzle me with what you come up with, and I
love it. That's Mary and David boys. I don't know
how they could be more in tune with each other.
It was so moving to see how they share each
(26:30):
other's joys and sorrows and passions. That's what marriage is
all about. Until next time, I'm filled down at you
and I'm Marlo Thomas. I I don't need to be
right right. I can tell myself I'm right. Double Day
is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created
by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is
(26:53):
associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You
by Stellwagon Sympinet. Marlo and I are executive producers, along
with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin Special Thing
Thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars,
(27:14):
Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams,
and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember
to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.
Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and
we're going on a series of double dates to find
out what makes a marriage last. I don't often find
(00:40):
myself hanging out with a pair of heavy hitting lawyers
just for fun. But when Marlo and I had the
chance to sit down with David and Mary boys, that's
exactly what it was. They're an incredible couple. I mean,
when David met Mary, she was the assistant director for
the Domestic Policy Staff under President Jimmy Carter and David
(01:02):
was chief counsel for Ted Kennedy. Well, you don't get
more power couple than that, certainly not. When we say
d down to chat with them, we were eager to
know about their first meeting. Were they cautious lawyers or
was the attraction immediate? It took me about twelve seconds.
He wasn't married, always good he was really smart, he
(01:27):
was very good looking, and he had a little money
in his pocket. So and he was a nice guy
would have liked so it took me twelve seconds. Took
him a while, No, it didn't take me very long.
But what did you think, did you? I thought she
was really sexy, which at that stage was very high
(01:51):
priority for me and very smart. Yeah, And I asked
her out the next time I was in Washington. But
we were negotiating at that time because Kennedy. We were
working on airline deregulation, and Kennedy had a bill that
was very radical. President Carter supported a bill that was
(02:13):
more moderate, and so we had negotiating sessions with me
and six or eight other people from the administration, different agencies,
and then him and I said to my colleagues, we
are not negotiating with this man. And they said, well why,
I said, no offense, But he's a hundred times smarter
(02:34):
than all of us put together. That was nineteen seventy
and you get married, and that was a long time.
You waited. Well, he'd been married twice, yes, And people
were warning me, you know, this guy marries, but he
(02:55):
doesn't really stay with people. And that was fine with
me because I'd already been married. I sort of got
that out of my system. But once I moved to
New York, I thought, I'm not going to live in
New York and not be married. So are we getting
married or am I moving back to Washington. That's good.
I don't remember quite that way. I mean, I don't
(03:19):
remember I remember me asking you. I don't remember you
bring it up to me, but you might have what
gave you the optimism to get married a third time? Oh,
I was just too much in love. And were you
a little nervous about marrying a guy who'd been married
twice before? Absolutely? And I figured, well, we won't have children,
(03:42):
and it'll be fun as long as it lasts, and
then I'll do something else. Why did you think you
wouldn't have children? Because he already had four and I
knew that if we had children then I'd be really
in in this marriage. And how old were you this time?
Thirty two? That's a good age to get married. It
was a wonderful age. And the first child came when
(04:05):
I was thirty three, and then the second when I
was thirty five, and it was just good timing. I
wasn't anxious to get married. I wasn't looking to get married.
But you know, every time I saw him, I went
week in the knees and I thought, that's a good sign.
And it's still true. Yeah, that's a great sign. Well,
(04:28):
I have a mental picture of your evenings together. First
of all, you both have your computer, and I would
think that in the evening hours you have a hard
time not being on them. Here's a typical night. We
go out to dinner a lot, and we go out
(04:49):
just the two of us a lot when we can
and have We call them dates. They are dates, and
a typical dinner starts with sweetheart, did you see what
the Supreme Court did this morning? Can you believe that?
Or what do you think of this opinion? Our very
first real date, we talked about the IBM anti trust
(05:11):
case for two and a half hours. Well, I was fascinated.
Well this was this was after after though, after she
had appeared like ninety minutes late because there had been
some crisis in the White House and she had had
to stay and work on it, which she thought was
(05:32):
entirely understandable because she was working for the President of
United States. I thought, if it was an efficient president
of the United States, he would have had his work done.
But so it was. We did get to the ibmount
of trust case, but only after she arrived and we'd
went through what she'd been doing. That's true. Would you
wait at ninety minutes I did. I didn't know she
(05:53):
was She was definitely worth waiting for no cell phones
in those days. Yeah, yeah, that's right, there was no.
I mean because I was on the phone constantly, constantly, constantly.
I was asked to get something done, and it was
not something that could be done out of the White House, right.
And it was a Friday night, and it was getting
(06:14):
later and later and later, and I was just on
two lines, three lines. It was. It was fun and
wonderful and crazy, and I'd look at the watch and say, oh,
I wonder if he's still there. That's amazing. It's like
Phil gave a party in Chicago for me, for all
(06:35):
the people in Chicago that he worked with him that
he knew, and the movie critic and the TV critic
and the newspaper people. I was very excited about it.
And I was producing a movie add that I was
also starring him, and I was supposed to begin the
music score on Tuesday. The composer had a heart attack,
(06:56):
and so my co producer said, you can't go away
this weekend. We're going to have to write an entire
score by Tuesday. So I called Phil and I say, um, oh,
I'm you know, so thrilled that you're giving this party
for me. But I have sort of bad news. I
(07:20):
can't come. Hey, you're kidding right anyway, So he gave
these two hundred people came to his house. He had
a tent, he had a bandy at all these people,
and there is no molo And I know that, and
I really thought, you know, this is it. This guy's
gonna like dump meet tomorrow. So these things happen to me.
(07:42):
When you're dealing with people who are in responsible jobs,
you can't you you can't walk out on the president,
and I can't walk out on a movie that I
have to deliver it. And these men who marry us
or who stay in love with us through that, you know,
they have to be the kind of menical handle of
that who can take that. I think it's important to
(08:04):
I mean, because I think you know, part of what
you know makes relationships work is each of you being
interested in the other and interested in what the other
is doing and how to help the other. Right, you
do talk about shop. We do. We talked about a
lot of other things, but but we do talk about
it because, um, you know, if if you've got a
(08:28):
difficult case, difficult legal problem or factual problem, you know
it's good to just be able to talk it through
with somebody who's a knows what you're doing and be
as smart, and the three is sort of thoughtful and
and finally and finally is patient. You know, because the
(08:50):
more you get into something that's really complicated, the deeper
you get into it, the fewer and fewer people are
interested in that level of detail. If I tell somebody like, um,
I've got a maybe a very interesting case where I'm
trying to sue health insurance for price fixing and I
(09:15):
trust violations, that's sort of interesting to people because they
want to improve the healthcare system and big companies getting
together and conspiring is kind of interesting. But then you
begin to get into the second and third, and fourth,
and fifth and sixth level of detail, and you began
talking about how many you know insurance there are in
this county and Alabama and nobody, you know, unless it's
(09:41):
your spouse, interested in that, And what do you have
to prove under section two of the Clayton in order
to win this? You understand, and I'm fascinated by it.
And so we talk about law, we talk about politics,
We talk a lot about history. We debate, you know,
(10:02):
did eisenhowerd do the right thing here. It's fun. But
when our children were growing up, they s times thought
we were arguing because they didn't understand what we were
talking about. We're talking intensely and you know, yeah, and
well you were debating, yeah exactly, you know, because we don't.
We don't entirely agree on everything. And that's good too. Yeah,
(10:25):
were you married to a lawyer before? No, I was
married to a college professor. And what were you ever
married to a lawyer? Yes? Both my former wives of ours?
Really huh, there's a there's a theme. I mean, I
think I think it's important that you have different interests,
but it's also important that you share some interests, right,
(10:47):
and it's important that they understand what you're doing. So yeah, yeah,
In many ways, you're chewing up time that might otherwise
be devoted to differences that cause anger and yeah, right, yeah,
and the words, it saves you from what other couples
(11:08):
might devote to conflict. And that's true, although often we
have friendly disagreements. You know, I think the court went
too far on this or when Clarence Thomas said X,
I didn't see any basis for that, and then he
would say, well, you've got to look at it this way. So, yes,
(11:31):
we avoid topics of conflict, but we have lively disagree.
I have a lawyers fight. That's interesting. Well, I mean,
I think I think actually one thing I hadn't really
thought about this before, but but I think maybe one
thing that helps in times of conflict is being lawyers
(11:52):
because as lawyers you understand that there are different points
of view. You're always dealing with somebody who has a
different point of view, and and you understand that somebody
who is your adversary is not your enemy. But I think,
I think more important is it if you keep in
context disputes, disagreements. If you get angry, and you keep
(12:18):
that in the context of the overall relationship, you don't,
you're not likely to powder go off or or stay
angry very long because you understand that it's such a
tiny part of your relationship, in such a small part
(12:39):
of your time together. As a couple, They've had a
lot of joy, but no shortage of tragedy either. David
in particular, has had his share of heartbreak. I've lost
two children. Oh yeah, my daughter had lung cancer. My
son and this aneurism. She was forty eight, and he
(13:00):
was fifty terrible. My job was to be there. There's
nothing you can say. You're never the same when you
lose a child. So I m. When we first heard
that Jonathan was in a bad way, you said, I,
(13:20):
I can't do this again, and I said you can
and we will, we must and and we are. Ye.
That's what marriage is kind of for, to be the
cushion of life. Right. When my father died, I loved
him so much and he was my best friend ever.
(13:43):
You know, I was a real daddy's girl. And when
he died, I just, I mean I just grieved something terrible.
You know. I went to a shrink that I had
gone to years before, and I said, I, this is like,
is this sick that I'm crying so much? You know?
What is? You know? He said, no, this is what
(14:04):
life is. He said, And this is why some people
don't commit to love, Yeah, because they know at the
end somewhere something's going to happen. The loss is gonna happen.
Right And Phil, God, Phil just brought me through it
and had my mom come and live with us for
three months. I mean, and she was a mess and
(14:24):
I was a mess. He just entertained us everybody invited people.
He took us out. I mean it was just we
both my mother and I were both basket cases. But
he really came through it, really, And that's the cushion. Oh,
a good Irish man, a good Irish lad. Yeah, we'll
(14:45):
have more. After a quick break, we're back to our
conversation with David and Mary. Boys. They're both so smart.
It's hard to believe that David was dropping out after
high school. I mean, I don't know what would happened
(15:06):
if my first wife had not gotten me go to college.
But why didn't you want to go? I didn't like school.
I'm dyslexic. As I got further along in school, reading
was I didn't really like reading the law? How did
you do it? I listened well. I can learn almost
everything I wanted just listening in class to my professors.
(15:27):
I'm still not a great reader, but I mean I
didn't read at all until I was in third grade. Nothing.
The most important thing is to understand that it is
an input problem. It's not a processing problems. It is
an ability to absorb information. It's not how well you think.
(15:48):
I mean, there's no negative correlation between dyslexia and intelligence. Right,
But all those facts that you have to gather in
order to make a case, all the research I have
to do, and I do have to do some reading.
But as I said, I listened really well. I think
it has taught me to organize my thoughts, to simplify things,
(16:13):
see how the things are important, because you can't read everything.
That's breathtaking. It really is. I bet you can't imagine it, right.
I'm not hard wired that way, but I don't have
his processing power. But it's fun to live with. So
(16:34):
where are you on the jealousy meter? I'm sicilian, I'm
very jealous. David has friends who are women, and they
are friends, and I was jealous for a while, but
then I put that away. I said, how did you
deal with it? I said, you know what, if he
wanted to be with him, he'd be with him. He's
(16:56):
left two wives, he knows how to do it. He
doesn't want to be here, He'll just go off. So
why am I thinking about this? I figured we off
and had his former wives or one of them come
on vacations because they're grandchildren and children were there, and
(17:19):
he asked me, once, do you mind if Carol comes
on the Christmas trip, I thought his first wife, and
I thought, why would I mind? Because her four children
who were still growing up and then grandchildren were on
those trips, and you're spending a week in the Caribbean.
How can I say grandmother can't be there. So I
(17:41):
said him myself, if he wanted to be with her,
he would be with her. So yeah, bring her on.
And I really meant that. And it's been good, and
it's good for the children. Yeah, I'm sure it is,
but I'm not jealous of them at all. His second
wife is a friend of mine. Yeah. When I met her,
(18:02):
I sort of gasped and thought, that's me ten years older.
That's how this works. Okay, you know, it'll be fun
while it last. Turns out it did last. One of
the things I think that we've learned from a lot
of these couples is that people a change things about
(18:22):
themselves in order to accommodate another person. Well. Well, I mean,
for example, she wanted to tear down my house, and
that seemed to me at the time to be a
really bad idea, because I thought it was a perfectly
(18:42):
good house, a ranch style, hideous of rubbish. It was.
It was a nicer house than I'd ever lived in
my life until then, and I thought it was I
thought it was perfectly good. Now I eventually understood that
building another house was more important to her than keeping
(19:03):
the house that we had was to me. And once
I understood that, I was perfectly happy to tear down
the house and build a new one. And as in
so many things, she was right, because this is a
much nicer house, and I'm much happier here than I
would have been if we hadn't torn down the durned
(19:23):
the house and built this one. But you were able
to not make that a power struggle and just and
just say, Okay, this means more to her than to me.
It does. And also and also you know, there are
lots of things that I don't do so well, and
a lot of things that I don't know so well
that she knows better than I do and does better
than I do. Each of us is very conscious of
(19:48):
if there's something that's more important to the other than
it is to us, that we just decide to do
it the way the other one wants to. For example,
one of the things that I did before we were
married was I would go to Las Vegas often and
when we got married. Um, Mary despised Las Vegas. She
(20:14):
you know, I mean the first time we went, she
pointed out that most of the men there were wearing
more jewelry than she was. And um, I mean she
there was almost nothing there that she really liked. But um,
and then then she realized that I enjoyed going there,
(20:37):
and um, and I'd like to gamble, and I liked
the shows, and I liked and I liked the ambiance
and um and so she um uh and not grudgingly.
When you do something for somebody, don't do it grudgingly.
Don't don't make them feel that you're doing them a favor.
And she has sort of embraced going to Las Vegas.
(20:59):
And I think, although she may tell you differently when
the microphones are off and you're a private, but I
think she actually enjoys going there. How often do you go?
Probably three or four times a year, wow, to Vegas?
See what I did? I used to I used to
go six times a year. Wow. I used to go
(21:20):
every other month, but but now about three or four times.
I lost twenty dollars and I was depressed. I didn't
have twenty dollars worth of fun. Yeah, right back when
I didn't have a chance. Well what about you though, Well,
here's what I did. I figured out, okay, this gee,
(21:42):
I thought he was so intelligent. Here we are going
to lost Vegas. Now. He never went crazy, you know,
he never lost a lot of money. You know, he
never gambled the house. Yeah. And I decided, all right,
he likes to do this, I don't. We do stuff
I like to do that he doesn't like to do.
(22:04):
So we'll leave in it out. And I said, what
can I do there that I like? I like to
hit tennis balls. So we would go there and I
would hire the pro and I'd spend the afternoon on
the tennis court. And I was perfectly happy. Yeah, and
I so I just decided, he likes to do this,
(22:25):
We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't,
and so I'll find a niche Yeah, and I did.
I find. Now it's fun to go that's and the
shows are good. That's I think I can never stamp good. Yeah.
And so what are some of the things that he
does for you that that he doesn't like to do
(22:47):
what you like to do. I might be wrong about this,
but when we first started taking bike trips as a vacation, right,
a vacation. You're you know, you're grinding your way about. Yeah,
that's Our first bike trip was twenty nine, nine years ago,
(23:10):
and we've been doing them ever since. Really we do
two or three a year. Wow. And it's perfectly clear
that he does that. I think, you know, it's like
me in Las Vegas. I think now kind of like it.
I have come to sort of like it. Um, but
um in the beginning the idea of um, I mean,
(23:32):
you get it. These bike trips. You go for a
week and you and you travel like forty fifty sometimes
sixty miles a day, Oh my god, and get up
early and um you so hey, I don't like to
get up early, be I don't really dislike exercise, but
(23:54):
not a high priority for me. I'm just fascinated that
you do these bike trips. I'm gonna really. One of
the nice things is that we're together the entire day,
nothing else happening. You know, we can just ride together,
talk and it's very peaceful. Yeah. There came a time
when I said to you, whatever you want to do,
(24:17):
I want to do wow, And I thought to myself,
here you are. You're a lawyer. You're a feminist and
you're saying to this man, whatever you want. And I thought,
good grief, it's come to this. But a lot of
things changed. It wasn't a negotiation anymore. The next day
(24:42):
he became a nicer person who was and it became
an upward spiral. I think that's kindness, and it changed everything.
And I remember if, well, actually, whatever you want to Taiwan,
because I really felt the same way. We decided. I
don't know, ten years into our marriage, we've been bickering
(25:02):
about unimportant things, and we just decided are we in
or are we out married? Or aren't we? If we're married,
let's make that a really good thing. And so when
we disagree on stuff, and I think he has an
eye with what's really important here, a great, loving marriage.
(25:26):
So he's dead wrong on this issue, Who cares? I
don't really, I don't have to win every argument. Is
one of you more likely to be the peacemaker or
oh me? Of course? No, I don't think either one
of us. Yea, I would not say. I think we
kind of trade around on that. I would say either
(25:48):
one of us. I think that we're both pretty good.
As I say at keeping things in context. I'm married
to someone who is not your typical great lawyer. He
is off the charts. I use that to my advantage.
I don't resent that, you know, I learned stuff from him.
(26:08):
I still are you, I respond, but you pretty much
dazzle me with what you come up with, and I
love it. That's Mary and David boys. I don't know
how they could be more in tune with each other.
It was so moving to see how they share each
(26:30):
other's joys and sorrows and passions. That's what marriage is
all about. Until next time, I'm filled down at you
and I'm Marlo Thomas. I I don't need to be
right right. I can tell myself I'm right. Double Day
is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created
by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is
(26:53):
associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You
by Stellwagon Sympinet. Marlo and I are executive producers, along
with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin Special Thing
Thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars,
(27:14):
Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams,
and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember
to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.
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