May 3, 2021 • 33 mins
On their first date, the NFL quarterback admired how this successful actress sauced up her fries and how she looked in her daisy dukes. A quarter century later, Rodney and Holly have met with the challenges of career stages, his recovery from addiction to pain medication and the autism of one of their children — facing down each obstacle and still holding fast to each other. A real testament to love’s longevity and grit, their story includes some tried and true lessons for us all.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and
we're going on a series of double dates to find
out what makes a marriage last. It's not every day
(00:40):
that I get to hang out with a former pro quarterback,
so I was pretty excited when we met up with
Rodney and Holly Robinson Pete. I knew you'd be happy
to talk to a real NFL champ, and Holly has
had success in so many TV shows. They're a classic
power couple. All I had to do was set the
levels on the recorder and it was game time. Okay,
(01:03):
So so Rodney, will you go first? Will you on
the radio? Have a pretty good part? Turned into my
radio voice right now? Ye, Rodney pot as, We're not
gonna have any of us. She's the gradgerator, that's got it.
You got a great boy. We started off talking about
(01:24):
their wedding, which Holly told us was a fantastic affair,
and the ceremony was presided over by my old pal
from my Chicago days, none other than the Reverend Jesse Jackson. Yes,
he was like a kind of a godfather and uncle,
if you will. And so he took you out for
a ride before he took us for a ride and
(01:45):
he essentially just started counseling us. So we thought we
were going to get this really awesome counseling moment. And
he said, a y'all, like, it's ready for this, because
this is no joke, this married thing. Jackie and I
have been married for decades and you got to really
(02:05):
be ready. And we said, we think we're ready. How
old were you? How old were you? I was twenty
nine at the time, I was thirty one. Yeah, so
you were You were not babies. That's good now, now
we didn't. Thank god we weren't because that helped. Yeah,
because had we I think met and started dating in
(02:28):
early twenties, Um, we wouldn't be here today. As Holly
likes to say, um I was you were saluously challenged?
Is whatsly challenge? Yes? Yes, he was dating someone and
I was dating everyone. Well, I mean, come on, NFL quarterbacks,
(02:55):
you got to experience the whole thing, right, I mean
how many minions young men go to bed every night
saying oh I wish that was a quarterback and the NFL.
So you know, I had to find out what that
was like. So how to do How did your favorite girl.
I was very unimpressed with the whole idea of dating
(03:18):
a quarterback. When he was drafted and when he was
a big star at USC, he was sort of off
my radar. There were only a handful of black quarterbacks
then in this time period, um and so he was
kind of on my radar because I remember my dad saying, oh,
this this guy had a dad was a big football fan,
mainly Eagles, but big football fan and certainly a proponent
(03:41):
of black quarterback. So whenever there was one that was
making waves, and Ridey was on the cover of Sports
Illustrated when he was at USC, he was like, you
know about this guy Rodney Pete, And I was like, run,
I was dating someone at the time, but he was
really he was. This guy wasn't the smartest he wasn't
(04:02):
the sharpest tool in the shed. He was I'm sort
of I think of myself as a worldly person that
I went to Sarah Lawrence and I had a junior
year in Paris, and he was definitely not on my level.
When I wanted you to go to Vietnam with me,
he asked, wasn't there still a war going on in Vietnam? Oh? Great, Yeah,
this is what I'm talking about. So, but the idea
(04:23):
of dating of a quarterback was what the last thing?
On paper? It sounds very sexy. How did you meet?
We met at a It was an R and B
kind of dinner club kind of thing, and and so
we were happening to be sitting and it was one
(04:43):
of those community tables. So I was with my friend
and she was who you were with your la, and
so we sat together and listened to music. And I
instantly because I knew who she was, but instantly was
even more attracted to her when I got to talk
to her and know her. And then she began to eat.
She ordered a big plate of French fries and doused
(05:06):
it with ketchup and then put hot sauce on top
of that. And I was like, okay, this is a
girl likes to let her hair down. And so here
was this nice setup, the perfect get to know you.
But Holly wasn't exactly feeling the vibe. At least Rodney did,
and fortunately for him, the two of them had a
mutual friend. And she said, I really like this guy
(05:28):
for you. I hate this guy you're dating, and I
really need you to stop sitting around waiting for him
to paid. You get put on your daisy dukes. We're
going to Rodney Peace's house for a pool party and
I was like, who. She said, that guy you saw
at the R and B Club. You need to go.
Let's go see him. I was like whatever. Turns out
he was only literally a five minute drive from my house.
(05:49):
I said, well, that's interesting. So we go to the party.
Nothing but girls lined up against the wall and a
lot and very few guys. So I was like, okay,
where is there something to eat? Again? Me eating? So
we grabbed a brisket off the barbecue. We ate it
and then we left, and about half an hour later,
there was a knock on my door. I remember only
(06:12):
the fight, and it was rodding me. I opened the
door and there was riding me with all these teeth,
just smiling at me, and he was like, I said,
don't you have a party going on at your house?
He said, well, when you left, the party was over.
Oh what a good So I was like okay. So
(06:34):
that's when I really decided to give him a shot.
And we really, with the exception of maybe two or
three awkward moments, have not ever been apart since. And
that was twenty six years ago. Wow, yeah, so we
you know, we had a couple ups and downs and moments.
We've never really broken up. And but the litmus test
(06:56):
was will he travel with me? When I asked Riddy
to go to Indonesia and Southeast Asia with me and
he said yes, I thought, okay, this this might be
something I did want to go and try. I like,
really traveled by a big geography and history guy, and
so I always wanted to travel, but I never could
really find people that wanted to be that kind of adventurous.
(07:20):
It was, hey, man, let's go, let's go to Japan.
This when I got downe with football, like let's go
to Japan, or let's go let's go to Italy, or
let's go somewhere else South America. And the group of
friends that I had close groups, no, let's just go
back to Hawaii and play some golf, or let's go
let's go to Mexico or or Cancoon or something like that.
It was never really stuff, really like really exotic type
(07:43):
of traveling, even though I wanted to. It just always
gave into the people I was with around and it
was just an easy thing to do. But that's that
time when you said he was monogamously challenged? Yeah, how
did you get past that? I had to literally, like
remember that song the clean up Woman. Yeah, I had
to be the clean up woman. I had to go
(08:03):
in and the thing was he was allowing me. So
when people girls would call or try to come over,
I had to say, he is now officially unavailable, like
no more rotten on that, Rodney Pete, that mister Gregaria
is the guy that given all the parties. He's dead.
Did you lie into that Rodney her cleaning up? Yeah?
(08:24):
It was, Yeah, I did, because I really liked her. Um,
but it was it was uncomfortable at times, I would say,
because I think I had a certain way of living
and I was comfortable living that way, um, not realizing
that I really need needed to change because my place
(08:48):
and my my world was I had a lot of
male friends would like to go hang out. My place
was the meeting place. It was like everyone would come
to my house before we go to dinner or go out,
and then we would end up back at my house afterwards.
And and so I was like central always Rodney's house,
my house. Yeah, your folks were like that in Beverly Hill.
(09:12):
Yeah for the comics. Yea. The party was always happening there,
but the cool house, and I had to kind of
like say to him, now, you got to make up
your mind what you want here, because it's not going
to be this gray area for me. I was working,
self sustaining, you know, woman, and if he wanted me
(09:34):
and not your typical NFL wife, and by that I
mean someone who basically picks up and goes to the
NFL city and takes care of their man all day long.
I wasn't going to be that person. And I couldn't
run around and try to just police him all the time.
So the little parties had to stop. Like these these
parties had to go. I never really broke things off
(09:57):
with girls I dated or girlfriends. Yeah, he always left
the door just a little bit of jar, just a
little bit of space, and that that that gray area
wasn't working. Definitely not working, bless you. Deep down inside,
that's what I wanted. I wanted. I did not want
that the woman that I would eventually marry to have
(10:18):
an identity that was attached to mine. I wanted her
to have her own world and have her own things,
and have her own career and not be that one
that's waiting for me to come home, going, okay, home
now yeah we're you know, what do we do now?
And kind of thing. I didn't. I didn't really want that.
So that was another thing that I That was another
(10:38):
thing that excited me about Hollay that she could, I guess,
pick up and leave at any time and be good
with it and didn't need me. And when did you
know he was the one? I think I knew he
was one when he didn't put up a fight when
I was kicking all those girls out of his life.
(11:01):
I mean I was going through drawers, checking phone records.
Really yeah, my parents had a terrible divorce. I had
this vision, vision of being married for my whole life,
and I just wanted to make sure he was telling
me the truth and being honest with me. How old
were you when your parents go to divorce? Like around
six seven? Yeah? And what about your parents marriage? Fifty
(11:26):
four years? Really? Yeah? Still going? Ah wow? So that's
what I wanted. And I loved that he had this marriage,
this mom and dad that you know together forever, So
you knew? So I knew when I knew when I
saw him not resisting me. He's allowing me to do
my thing. I think he understood early what I needed
(11:48):
to feel comfortable, and he allowed me to do it right.
And when I saw that he wouldn't you know, he
didn't shut me down, I thought, wow, he's he must
be pretty serious about this. But that was the male
behavior you were accustomed to, wit I was accustomed to
witnessing guys try to push back on me, you know,
(12:09):
trying to get them to be monogamous. They were very
they were very intimidated and threatened by me because I'm
a strong woman who does my own thing. And not
many of you guys who are you know, not many
of you, the Phils and the Rodneys of the world,
are comfortable with with strong women who are independent. To
some people, that's a threat and not an exciting thing.
(12:30):
For Rodney, that was a plus. But you're perfect for
a quarterback. I mean really, you know you cannot be
a shy little bird married to an NFL quarterback. I
don't think that works well. You have a lot of
guys want that. They do, Yeah, they don't want the
(12:50):
shy bird, do they? A lot of them do they want?
You know, this is my time, But to Phil's point,
when you are the quarterback's wife, you gotta kind of
be a first lady. H You have to organize things.
You got to speak for the you know, you have
to take care of the receiver's wives. The offensive line
wise got to be Switzerland with everyone. You gotta really
(13:11):
be You've got to really be on your game. It's
not just stand there and look pretty. The life of
the life of a quarterback's wife is not easy, especially
in Philadelphia. You have to have a thick skin. And um,
he did choose the right person. So we would, you know,
we we would do a lot too. We were good team.
One time that she she kind of what got involved
(13:35):
in a little dispute when they were bad mouthing me
a little bit, well, the media. We had had a
bad game and everybody was coming down to me and
they were blasphemy, blasphemy, and so this one decides to
call in to the radio station for you, but disguise
her voice. Oh, like, tell these guys you don't know
(13:59):
what you're talking about. And she was being way too
specific because she was defending me so hard that and
they totally made me, Yeah, they did. Those were tough,
tough tough days. Yeah, we'll have more. After a quick break,
(14:27):
we're back to our conversation with Rodney Pete and Holly Robinson.
Pete and Marlow wanted to know about their biggest challenge
as a couple. The big giant challenge came when RJ
got diagnosed with autism. So when he was three and
he got diagnosed, that was the kick in the gut.
(14:48):
Like that, to this day, I'm not sure how we
survived that because there was blame and denial, and you know,
I when I found out we got the diagnosis, you know,
I went to books and I started dog earring pages
and highlighting passages, just trying to turn kid for him.
And then I would go by the he was playing
(15:10):
for the Raiders, and I would go to Oakland and
I'll look under the bed and there was the whole
package that I sent with all the highlighted passages, not
even opened. He didn't even look at it because he's
in denial. Yeah, he didn't want he didn't want to
deal with the fact we didn't know what autism was.
This lady sat down across from us, this developmental pediatrician,
(15:31):
told us everything our son would never be. He won't speak,
he won't go to mainstream school, he won't play sports.
It made Rodney crazy. It made him feel you know,
she told us what this three year old would never
be and it was just the most horrible, awful, horrible thing.
And then you start blaming each other. You're like, we
(15:52):
don't know why he got this thing. We don't know
what autism is. He has a twin sister, you know,
and he wasn't hitting the milestones that she was hitting.
At the same time. There were no signs of anything
with her. No but crazy. When they went in for
the diagnosis, for the evaluation, she mimicked him the whole time.
She was like, you're I'm going You're going down. I'm
(16:15):
going down. And they came back to us with diagnosis.
They're both on the spectrum. We're like, what her to?
No way? And then oh, yes, yes, she's doing everything.
She's she's flapping and stemming and turning and twirling and
not making eye contact. And then when she came out
and this this is a three year old, right, And
we didn't realize until later that she was mimicking him
(16:36):
to let him know that she was with him. She
was not She's not on the spectrum. She's, you know,
a normal, typical kid, but she oh, yeah, it was rough.
And when you go in and she spends forty minutes
with your kids and says, he gives you a lifelong diagnosis,
(17:01):
You're like, well, it was longer than it's like a
two hour thing. Still two hours, it's still that's short
a pair of time. You're gonna tell me what my
son will never do. So that was the beginning of
when I didn't know, like I always envisioned, Oh, I'm
gonna have this husband forever. And that was the first
moment where I was like, he's not getting on board
(17:23):
with what I need to do. I have to roll
up my sleeves and become a gangster for this kid.
Did I cannot worry about Oh, he's not the son
I dreamed of, and he's not going to play in
the NFL. He's not gonna win the Heisman Trophy. Like
the little things that I felt like Rodney was like
obsessing on, although they weren't really those things, but to
(17:44):
my mind they were. Whenever RJ would come to the games,
when he would play, all the other football players kids
would run around and get autographs and be like, you know,
into it and connecting, and Argie would be twirling around
in the corner, flapping his hands, you know, not talking
to anybody, and it was devastating. If I had to
go back, I would have been nicer and more patient,
(18:06):
because I understand now that the processing of the diagnosis
of autism, especially for a dad and his son, is
much different than it is for a mom. Oh my god.
Remember we were dealing with bullying at school. There was
so much going on, and now when you look back,
(18:27):
I realized that as much as we blamed each other
or were frustrated with each other about the because I
was frustrated that Rodney was in denial, and I knew
that that denial was eating up time and there was
a small window of time that r J had to
get his brain right in order to present himself to
(18:50):
the world, and Rodney was not moving fast enough for me.
And it was the only time, even with all the
football teams and the drama that we've dealt with or
whatever we were dealing with, that I felt like I
can't do this with him because he's slowing me down.
He's holding me back from just doing everything I can
(19:11):
to get this kid ready for life because I was
stuck in my own selfish world, like why me and
what did I do wrong? And this is not the
vision I had for my firstborn son. And I wanted
to experience the things that I did growing up because
it was beneficial for me. And now he's gonna do it.
And then I went into Okay, I'm an athlete. I'm
(19:32):
gonna do it like my dad did. I'm gonna coach
it out of him. And yeah, I was not equipped
with the right tools, and I didn't believe the therapist.
I didn't I just said I can do this myself.
And it came to a point where she's like, you
gotta get on board. And there was an embarrassing moment
with all of the therapies and one of our big
group sessions that I was asked to kind of do
(19:55):
something because it doesn't end at the therapy. You got
to go home and it's twenty four seven. You gotta,
you know, talk to him the right way and engage
with him the right way. And I didn't have any
of those tools because I didn't study it, wasn't willing
to learn. And so the embarrassing moment was when the
therapist asked me to engage with my son, and he
had no engagement with me, no eye contact, no laughter,
(20:17):
no plane. And then one of the other therapists got
on the floor with him and started talking to him
in special ways, engaging him with eye contact certain ways,
and he immediately lit up and responded to everything that
she was doing. And it wasn't like immediately the light
(20:38):
went off, but I did, deep down know that I
was doing so I had to change the way I
was thinking. But I responded like, she set me up
to this, set me up to fail. She was, you know,
trying to make me look bad, and so I was
still stuck in my selfish ways, and she was like, look,
this is the way it has to happen, and unless
(21:00):
you can do this and get on board with it,
we can't last. And so when he realized that he
had to change his way and it happened on a dime,
it was just the most amazing thing. So thank God,
right right, And that was huge hurdle, huge Pete hurdle
(21:20):
number one. Yeah, that was that was one. I didn't
think we could we were gonna. So when that happened,
I was like, oh shit, we can handle we can
handle a lot of other things now, like if that
one was tough, right, it breaks up couples very, very easily.
So that was a huge hurdle. And I'm glad he
came through. And how lucky is he to have en
(21:43):
latent parents like you guys, I mean, I know he is, really,
I mean, he's very lucky. And and also I would
I mean, I suppose that what that doctor said, that
pediatrician said that day was not true. All that poor doctor.
I went on Oprah show and talked about that doctor
(22:03):
so bad. I feel badly. I didn't mention her name,
but I wanted other parents to hear. If you're getting
this diagnosis today, never let some doctor tell you what
your three year old is going to become. It's a
horrible thing to do to I mean, there's so much
hope that she robbed us of in that moment. And
had I not been the bulldog mom and the Johnny
(22:24):
come Lately dad who was on board later on, we
wouldn't mean, we might have succumbed to that hopelessness. So
this is this gigantic boulder in the middle of your marriage. Yes,
how do you still become a couple who gets to play.
I think there was a period of time where it
(22:44):
was just so about r J that we did neglect
each other. We tried to make it about each other,
but I think it just became get this kid as
right as possible so that when we die, he's going
to be okay. And how did you find your way
back to each other. We've done a lot of talking,
a lot of advocacy. I think the advocacy and starting
(23:08):
the foundation and meeting with other parents and seeing the
change we were affecting, yeah, helped us go Okay, we're
doing something, we're doing something right, and that bonded us.
It's powerful when he goes and speaks to other dads
because being a macho black athlete and like they sit
(23:30):
in the room going, wow, he was in denial and
they're like, see, honey, he's in denial and he figured
it out. And so that's a powerful it's some powerful
image to put out there. Right, tell us about r
J today? Yeah, you go, Phil, You still doing them
(23:52):
water works things? Huh. Well. He now works with the
Los Angeles Dodgers. He's a clubhouse attendant. They love him.
And every time I like I put on social media
or a post I say thank you Dodgers for giving
my son a job. They always write me back, going, no,
thank you for RJ. You know what he brings to
(24:13):
this clubhouse. We've had some tough losses over the last
few years. RJ is the guy that has to put
the champagne back at the sixth inning, you know, when
we're gonna lose the World Series or whatever. So it's
an emotional thing, an emotional journey. So when the doctor
told us he would never have a job and he
would probably never have friends, Yeah, he never had friends
(24:36):
growing up, and now he has, you know, a whole
dugout full of friends. And that's really just so powerful.
So RJ is driving. J is, he's communicating, he's connecting.
He has a great job, his dream job, makes its
own money, does his own banking. I mean he is,
(24:58):
and he's happy. Like he said, he's driving, and he's
connecting with people. Still has issues, still has a lot
of OCD. Can't talk to women or girls yet. And
he's I'm not just saying this because he's my baby,
but he's gorgeous and so it's a success story. Yeah,
it's a kid that was the one we were worried
(25:21):
that was kind of pushing us apart together brought us
back together and still does. Did you go to the
couple's therapy? Yes, yeah, from day one. By the way,
I should say that was the one of traveling to
far places was one criteria and the other was you
have to be willing to sit down with a shrink.
(25:43):
And Rodney Pete did not come from that's not in
his background, Like his parents were like, where are you
are you giving my son a lobotomy? And so he
had to be willing to do that. And when he
said yes to that, because these little strong black men
don't do that. They do not sit down in a
room and have some person tell them anything. That's just
they'll go to a pastor or a preacher. We lent
(26:06):
a couple of times the irishman here sit well with him.
We had a fight in front of the therapist the
first day and he left slammed the door. Before we
were married, and the therapist was my therapist, and the
therapist said to me, this is not the guy for you.
(26:27):
That sounds like mine. But never day lady, you know,
because I mean in the middle of meeting and gets
mad and leaves. It's not a good sign at all.
This guy's not good for you. But but it was
interesting because every time we would run into that therapist
years later, he would say, you guys kill me. You
don't resolve anything, do We don't resolve everything. You can't
(26:48):
resolve everything. So I like that. I mean, you can't
resolve everything, and I do. I think if if I
have one of my very few faults that I have, UM,
if that I do try to micromanage, you know, our
relationship sometimes. Um. The autism thing was rough, But you
mentioned the other hurdle number two or three. I lost
(27:12):
count retirement when he retired. Yeah, when the lights went
out on the football career, I thought I was ready
for it, but I think I was so worn out
from the autism stuff that I was like, uh, you know,
is this now what? First of all, you don't want
(27:33):
it to end because it's something you've done for eight
years old. And then on top of that, it ends
at thirty eight and everybody's just in the prime of
their working career at that time, you know, and so
thirty eight is old for question. Yeah exactly. So now
you're at you know, thirty eight years old, and you're like, Okay,
I just had, you know, wonderful life doing what I
(27:54):
always wanted to do. That's over. Where am I going
to find that high? Where am I going to find
that same feeling? Yeah? Where am I gonna get that
rush from? And I went right from playing to a
show being hired by father to do a pretty popular
show called Best Damn Sports Show. But I wasn't happy.
(28:15):
I mean I was like still thinking that was going
to get feel that boy. So it spent a lot
of time chasing that rush because there was no handbook,
There was no hambig say this is what you're supposed
to do or feel like or all those type of things.
And then the other thing that was happening was Rodney
was in miss pain from playing football. They had opioids
(28:38):
hanging out in the you know, like mints in the
locker rooms, and so he was dealing with to get
them through the game, you mean, get him through the game,
get him through life, get him through the week, you know,
And he was drinking, and so he was dealing with
all of those things on top of retiring and then
(28:58):
me and denial about what those things were causing. And
he didn't know how many concussions he had. He had
so many As an athlete, you just deal. You just
basically live within paying because in football especially you play
on a Sunday, you don't feel good until that following
Friday or Saturday because you're dealing with the pain from
(29:18):
the past Sunday opioids and things that they gave you
that we find out now there was just so terrible
detriment to your body. It was they give it out
like candy. Yeah, there were There were definitely dark moments
and dark times and drinking and all that game and
taking pills. Found myself constantly, you know, like when you
dream and you're you're gonna plate you fall and you
(29:40):
can't stop falling. You're always falling. You can't find anywhere
to see. It was that kind of feeling in terms
of chasing that rush. Retirement. It's a huge thing. Yeah,
everybody in the world is going to have to retire
at some point. And I think the biggest thing, in
the biggest part of it is, and it's one hundred
percent true, is that I would not be here being
(30:04):
able to overcome a lot of things that I've been
able to work through and overcome if she was not
willing to work it out with me. You've been through
so many big tsunamis, you know, and you've and you've
ridden the wave and hung onto each other through it.
(30:25):
I mean, what if that isn't love? What is still
and still doing it tomorrow? Like still there, like still
still some of the repercussions of some of the decisions
that were made, still paying for that a little bit,
still dealing with that. And um, I think we're still work.
Everybody's a work in pros right right till the end.
(30:46):
One couple we've said, they said, we're always under construction.
I mean you are. We we are too. Don't think
we've made it. I mean we're you know, we're still
riding the waves of all kinds of stuff that we
have to You're you guys have been amazing. I mean
it's really really so juicy. So sorry it has. And
(31:09):
as we were wrapping up, Holly and Rodney had some
terrific advice for all couples who are works in progress.
We do something called we call it same page love,
where if you're on the same page, things are good.
When you're on a different chapter or even a whole
other book, that's a bad thing. So when you say
we try to get the same page love. Is that
like an exercise? Yeah, let's sit down, allow each other
(31:32):
to talk and listen. Give them a time limit, maybe
it's fifteen minutes. Okay, now you're on the clock. Because
what happens is you come to an agreement a couple
that also is a twenty second hug. Yeah I read that.
Oh my gosh, someone, if I call for it, she's
got to give it to me and vice versa. Can't
pull away, You got to hold that hug. There's all
(31:54):
this energy going on. You want to just fucking kill him.
What happens, even though you're angry, you start reminiscing about
why you're together and what it means to be together.
I think it's a physical your heart. I mean, all
that comes out right, it's just a it's the connection.
(32:17):
That's Rodney and Holly Robinson peak. What an inspiring couple.
It just goes to show that with bravery and perseverance,
you can get through almost anything as a couple as
long as you have the right person on your team.
Until next time, I'm Phill down to you and I'm
Marlo Thomas. Well, you gave us two great pieces of advice.
(32:39):
The twenty second Hug and the and the get on
the same page age love. That's great. That's our little hashtag.
That's great to have a hashtag these days. Marlod double Day.
There's a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created
by us and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is
(33:00):
associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You
by Cellwagon, Simfinette, Marlo and I are exactly producers, along
with Mia Lobel and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special thanks
to Jacob Wiseburg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Fame, John Snars, Carly Migliori,
(33:23):
Eric Sandler, Emily Rosdek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Kluger.
If you like our show, please remember to share, rate,
and review. Thanks for listening.
Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and
we're going on a series of double dates to find
out what makes a marriage last. It's not every day
(00:40):
that I get to hang out with a former pro quarterback,
so I was pretty excited when we met up with
Rodney and Holly Robinson Pete. I knew you'd be happy
to talk to a real NFL champ, and Holly has
had success in so many TV shows. They're a classic
power couple. All I had to do was set the
levels on the recorder and it was game time. Okay,
(01:03):
So so Rodney, will you go first? Will you on
the radio? Have a pretty good part? Turned into my
radio voice right now? Ye, Rodney pot as, We're not
gonna have any of us. She's the gradgerator, that's got it.
You got a great boy. We started off talking about
(01:24):
their wedding, which Holly told us was a fantastic affair,
and the ceremony was presided over by my old pal
from my Chicago days, none other than the Reverend Jesse Jackson. Yes,
he was like a kind of a godfather and uncle,
if you will. And so he took you out for
a ride before he took us for a ride and
(01:45):
he essentially just started counseling us. So we thought we
were going to get this really awesome counseling moment. And
he said, a y'all, like, it's ready for this, because
this is no joke, this married thing. Jackie and I
have been married for decades and you got to really
(02:05):
be ready. And we said, we think we're ready. How
old were you? How old were you? I was twenty
nine at the time, I was thirty one. Yeah, so
you were You were not babies. That's good now, now
we didn't. Thank god we weren't because that helped. Yeah,
because had we I think met and started dating in
(02:28):
early twenties, Um, we wouldn't be here today. As Holly
likes to say, um I was you were saluously challenged?
Is whatsly challenge? Yes? Yes, he was dating someone and
I was dating everyone. Well, I mean, come on, NFL quarterbacks,
(02:55):
you got to experience the whole thing, right, I mean
how many minions young men go to bed every night
saying oh I wish that was a quarterback and the NFL.
So you know, I had to find out what that
was like. So how to do How did your favorite girl.
I was very unimpressed with the whole idea of dating
(03:18):
a quarterback. When he was drafted and when he was
a big star at USC, he was sort of off
my radar. There were only a handful of black quarterbacks
then in this time period, um and so he was
kind of on my radar because I remember my dad saying, oh,
this this guy had a dad was a big football fan,
mainly Eagles, but big football fan and certainly a proponent
(03:41):
of black quarterback. So whenever there was one that was
making waves, and Ridey was on the cover of Sports
Illustrated when he was at USC, he was like, you
know about this guy Rodney Pete, And I was like, run,
I was dating someone at the time, but he was
really he was. This guy wasn't the smartest he wasn't
(04:02):
the sharpest tool in the shed. He was I'm sort
of I think of myself as a worldly person that
I went to Sarah Lawrence and I had a junior
year in Paris, and he was definitely not on my level.
When I wanted you to go to Vietnam with me,
he asked, wasn't there still a war going on in Vietnam? Oh? Great, Yeah,
this is what I'm talking about. So, but the idea
(04:23):
of dating of a quarterback was what the last thing?
On paper? It sounds very sexy. How did you meet?
We met at a It was an R and B
kind of dinner club kind of thing, and and so
we were happening to be sitting and it was one
(04:43):
of those community tables. So I was with my friend
and she was who you were with your la, and
so we sat together and listened to music. And I
instantly because I knew who she was, but instantly was
even more attracted to her when I got to talk
to her and know her. And then she began to eat.
She ordered a big plate of French fries and doused
(05:06):
it with ketchup and then put hot sauce on top
of that. And I was like, okay, this is a
girl likes to let her hair down. And so here
was this nice setup, the perfect get to know you.
But Holly wasn't exactly feeling the vibe. At least Rodney did,
and fortunately for him, the two of them had a
mutual friend. And she said, I really like this guy
(05:28):
for you. I hate this guy you're dating, and I
really need you to stop sitting around waiting for him
to paid. You get put on your daisy dukes. We're
going to Rodney Peace's house for a pool party and
I was like, who. She said, that guy you saw
at the R and B Club. You need to go.
Let's go see him. I was like whatever. Turns out
he was only literally a five minute drive from my house.
(05:49):
I said, well, that's interesting. So we go to the party.
Nothing but girls lined up against the wall and a
lot and very few guys. So I was like, okay,
where is there something to eat? Again? Me eating? So
we grabbed a brisket off the barbecue. We ate it
and then we left, and about half an hour later,
there was a knock on my door. I remember only
(06:12):
the fight, and it was rodding me. I opened the
door and there was riding me with all these teeth,
just smiling at me, and he was like, I said,
don't you have a party going on at your house?
He said, well, when you left, the party was over.
Oh what a good So I was like okay. So
(06:34):
that's when I really decided to give him a shot.
And we really, with the exception of maybe two or
three awkward moments, have not ever been apart since. And
that was twenty six years ago. Wow, yeah, so we
you know, we had a couple ups and downs and moments.
We've never really broken up. And but the litmus test
(06:56):
was will he travel with me? When I asked Riddy
to go to Indonesia and Southeast Asia with me and
he said yes, I thought, okay, this this might be
something I did want to go and try. I like,
really traveled by a big geography and history guy, and
so I always wanted to travel, but I never could
really find people that wanted to be that kind of adventurous.
(07:20):
It was, hey, man, let's go, let's go to Japan.
This when I got downe with football, like let's go
to Japan, or let's go let's go to Italy, or
let's go somewhere else South America. And the group of
friends that I had close groups, no, let's just go
back to Hawaii and play some golf, or let's go
let's go to Mexico or or Cancoon or something like that.
It was never really stuff, really like really exotic type
(07:43):
of traveling, even though I wanted to. It just always
gave into the people I was with around and it
was just an easy thing to do. But that's that
time when you said he was monogamously challenged? Yeah, how
did you get past that? I had to literally, like
remember that song the clean up Woman. Yeah, I had
to be the clean up woman. I had to go
(08:03):
in and the thing was he was allowing me. So
when people girls would call or try to come over,
I had to say, he is now officially unavailable, like
no more rotten on that, Rodney Pete, that mister Gregaria
is the guy that given all the parties. He's dead.
Did you lie into that Rodney her cleaning up? Yeah?
(08:24):
It was, Yeah, I did, because I really liked her. Um,
but it was it was uncomfortable at times, I would say,
because I think I had a certain way of living
and I was comfortable living that way, um, not realizing
that I really need needed to change because my place
(08:48):
and my my world was I had a lot of
male friends would like to go hang out. My place
was the meeting place. It was like everyone would come
to my house before we go to dinner or go out,
and then we would end up back at my house afterwards.
And and so I was like central always Rodney's house,
my house. Yeah, your folks were like that in Beverly Hill.
(09:12):
Yeah for the comics. Yea. The party was always happening there,
but the cool house, and I had to kind of
like say to him, now, you got to make up
your mind what you want here, because it's not going
to be this gray area for me. I was working,
self sustaining, you know, woman, and if he wanted me
(09:34):
and not your typical NFL wife, and by that I
mean someone who basically picks up and goes to the
NFL city and takes care of their man all day long.
I wasn't going to be that person. And I couldn't
run around and try to just police him all the time.
So the little parties had to stop. Like these these
parties had to go. I never really broke things off
(09:57):
with girls I dated or girlfriends. Yeah, he always left
the door just a little bit of jar, just a
little bit of space, and that that that gray area
wasn't working. Definitely not working, bless you. Deep down inside,
that's what I wanted. I wanted. I did not want
that the woman that I would eventually marry to have
(10:18):
an identity that was attached to mine. I wanted her
to have her own world and have her own things,
and have her own career and not be that one
that's waiting for me to come home, going, okay, home
now yeah we're you know, what do we do now?
And kind of thing. I didn't. I didn't really want that.
So that was another thing that I That was another
(10:38):
thing that excited me about Hollay that she could, I guess,
pick up and leave at any time and be good
with it and didn't need me. And when did you
know he was the one? I think I knew he
was one when he didn't put up a fight when
I was kicking all those girls out of his life.
(11:01):
I mean I was going through drawers, checking phone records.
Really yeah, my parents had a terrible divorce. I had
this vision, vision of being married for my whole life,
and I just wanted to make sure he was telling
me the truth and being honest with me. How old
were you when your parents go to divorce? Like around
six seven? Yeah? And what about your parents marriage? Fifty
(11:26):
four years? Really? Yeah? Still going? Ah wow? So that's
what I wanted. And I loved that he had this marriage,
this mom and dad that you know together forever, So
you knew? So I knew when I knew when I
saw him not resisting me. He's allowing me to do
my thing. I think he understood early what I needed
(11:48):
to feel comfortable, and he allowed me to do it right.
And when I saw that he wouldn't you know, he
didn't shut me down, I thought, wow, he's he must
be pretty serious about this. But that was the male
behavior you were accustomed to, wit I was accustomed to
witnessing guys try to push back on me, you know,
(12:09):
trying to get them to be monogamous. They were very
they were very intimidated and threatened by me because I'm
a strong woman who does my own thing. And not
many of you guys who are you know, not many
of you, the Phils and the Rodneys of the world,
are comfortable with with strong women who are independent. To
some people, that's a threat and not an exciting thing.
(12:30):
For Rodney, that was a plus. But you're perfect for
a quarterback. I mean really, you know you cannot be
a shy little bird married to an NFL quarterback. I
don't think that works well. You have a lot of
guys want that. They do, Yeah, they don't want the
(12:50):
shy bird, do they? A lot of them do they want?
You know, this is my time, But to Phil's point,
when you are the quarterback's wife, you gotta kind of
be a first lady. H You have to organize things.
You got to speak for the you know, you have
to take care of the receiver's wives. The offensive line
wise got to be Switzerland with everyone. You gotta really
(13:11):
be You've got to really be on your game. It's
not just stand there and look pretty. The life of
the life of a quarterback's wife is not easy, especially
in Philadelphia. You have to have a thick skin. And um,
he did choose the right person. So we would, you know,
we we would do a lot too. We were good team.
One time that she she kind of what got involved
(13:35):
in a little dispute when they were bad mouthing me
a little bit, well, the media. We had had a
bad game and everybody was coming down to me and
they were blasphemy, blasphemy, and so this one decides to
call in to the radio station for you, but disguise
her voice. Oh, like, tell these guys you don't know
(13:59):
what you're talking about. And she was being way too
specific because she was defending me so hard that and
they totally made me, Yeah, they did. Those were tough,
tough tough days. Yeah, we'll have more. After a quick break,
(14:27):
we're back to our conversation with Rodney Pete and Holly Robinson.
Pete and Marlow wanted to know about their biggest challenge
as a couple. The big giant challenge came when RJ
got diagnosed with autism. So when he was three and
he got diagnosed, that was the kick in the gut.
(14:48):
Like that, to this day, I'm not sure how we
survived that because there was blame and denial, and you know,
I when I found out we got the diagnosis, you know,
I went to books and I started dog earring pages
and highlighting passages, just trying to turn kid for him.
And then I would go by the he was playing
(15:10):
for the Raiders, and I would go to Oakland and
I'll look under the bed and there was the whole
package that I sent with all the highlighted passages, not
even opened. He didn't even look at it because he's
in denial. Yeah, he didn't want he didn't want to
deal with the fact we didn't know what autism was.
This lady sat down across from us, this developmental pediatrician,
(15:31):
told us everything our son would never be. He won't speak,
he won't go to mainstream school, he won't play sports.
It made Rodney crazy. It made him feel you know,
she told us what this three year old would never
be and it was just the most horrible, awful, horrible thing.
And then you start blaming each other. You're like, we
(15:52):
don't know why he got this thing. We don't know
what autism is. He has a twin sister, you know,
and he wasn't hitting the milestones that she was hitting.
At the same time. There were no signs of anything
with her. No but crazy. When they went in for
the diagnosis, for the evaluation, she mimicked him the whole time.
She was like, you're I'm going You're going down. I'm
(16:15):
going down. And they came back to us with diagnosis.
They're both on the spectrum. We're like, what her to?
No way? And then oh, yes, yes, she's doing everything.
She's she's flapping and stemming and turning and twirling and
not making eye contact. And then when she came out
and this this is a three year old, right, And
we didn't realize until later that she was mimicking him
(16:36):
to let him know that she was with him. She
was not She's not on the spectrum. She's, you know,
a normal, typical kid, but she oh, yeah, it was rough.
And when you go in and she spends forty minutes
with your kids and says, he gives you a lifelong diagnosis,
(17:01):
You're like, well, it was longer than it's like a
two hour thing. Still two hours, it's still that's short
a pair of time. You're gonna tell me what my
son will never do. So that was the beginning of
when I didn't know, like I always envisioned, Oh, I'm
gonna have this husband forever. And that was the first
moment where I was like, he's not getting on board
(17:23):
with what I need to do. I have to roll
up my sleeves and become a gangster for this kid.
Did I cannot worry about Oh, he's not the son
I dreamed of, and he's not going to play in
the NFL. He's not gonna win the Heisman Trophy. Like
the little things that I felt like Rodney was like
obsessing on, although they weren't really those things, but to
(17:44):
my mind they were. Whenever RJ would come to the games,
when he would play, all the other football players kids
would run around and get autographs and be like, you know,
into it and connecting, and Argie would be twirling around
in the corner, flapping his hands, you know, not talking
to anybody, and it was devastating. If I had to
go back, I would have been nicer and more patient,
(18:06):
because I understand now that the processing of the diagnosis
of autism, especially for a dad and his son, is
much different than it is for a mom. Oh my god.
Remember we were dealing with bullying at school. There was
so much going on, and now when you look back,
(18:27):
I realized that as much as we blamed each other
or were frustrated with each other about the because I
was frustrated that Rodney was in denial, and I knew
that that denial was eating up time and there was
a small window of time that r J had to
get his brain right in order to present himself to
(18:50):
the world, and Rodney was not moving fast enough for me.
And it was the only time, even with all the
football teams and the drama that we've dealt with or
whatever we were dealing with, that I felt like I
can't do this with him because he's slowing me down.
He's holding me back from just doing everything I can
(19:11):
to get this kid ready for life because I was
stuck in my own selfish world, like why me and
what did I do wrong? And this is not the
vision I had for my firstborn son. And I wanted
to experience the things that I did growing up because
it was beneficial for me. And now he's gonna do it.
And then I went into Okay, I'm an athlete. I'm
(19:32):
gonna do it like my dad did. I'm gonna coach
it out of him. And yeah, I was not equipped
with the right tools, and I didn't believe the therapist.
I didn't I just said I can do this myself.
And it came to a point where she's like, you
gotta get on board. And there was an embarrassing moment
with all of the therapies and one of our big
group sessions that I was asked to kind of do
(19:55):
something because it doesn't end at the therapy. You got
to go home and it's twenty four seven. You gotta,
you know, talk to him the right way and engage
with him the right way. And I didn't have any
of those tools because I didn't study it, wasn't willing
to learn. And so the embarrassing moment was when the
therapist asked me to engage with my son, and he
had no engagement with me, no eye contact, no laughter,
(20:17):
no plane. And then one of the other therapists got
on the floor with him and started talking to him
in special ways, engaging him with eye contact certain ways,
and he immediately lit up and responded to everything that
she was doing. And it wasn't like immediately the light
(20:38):
went off, but I did, deep down know that I
was doing so I had to change the way I
was thinking. But I responded like, she set me up
to this, set me up to fail. She was, you know,
trying to make me look bad, and so I was
still stuck in my selfish ways, and she was like, look,
this is the way it has to happen, and unless
(21:00):
you can do this and get on board with it,
we can't last. And so when he realized that he
had to change his way and it happened on a dime,
it was just the most amazing thing. So thank God,
right right, And that was huge hurdle, huge Pete hurdle
(21:20):
number one. Yeah, that was that was one. I didn't
think we could we were gonna. So when that happened,
I was like, oh shit, we can handle we can
handle a lot of other things now, like if that
one was tough, right, it breaks up couples very, very easily.
So that was a huge hurdle. And I'm glad he
came through. And how lucky is he to have en
(21:43):
latent parents like you guys, I mean, I know he is, really,
I mean, he's very lucky. And and also I would
I mean, I suppose that what that doctor said, that
pediatrician said that day was not true. All that poor doctor.
I went on Oprah show and talked about that doctor
(22:03):
so bad. I feel badly. I didn't mention her name,
but I wanted other parents to hear. If you're getting
this diagnosis today, never let some doctor tell you what
your three year old is going to become. It's a
horrible thing to do to I mean, there's so much
hope that she robbed us of in that moment. And
had I not been the bulldog mom and the Johnny
(22:24):
come Lately dad who was on board later on, we
wouldn't mean, we might have succumbed to that hopelessness. So
this is this gigantic boulder in the middle of your marriage. Yes,
how do you still become a couple who gets to play.
I think there was a period of time where it
(22:44):
was just so about r J that we did neglect
each other. We tried to make it about each other,
but I think it just became get this kid as
right as possible so that when we die, he's going
to be okay. And how did you find your way
back to each other. We've done a lot of talking,
a lot of advocacy. I think the advocacy and starting
(23:08):
the foundation and meeting with other parents and seeing the
change we were affecting, yeah, helped us go Okay, we're
doing something, we're doing something right, and that bonded us.
It's powerful when he goes and speaks to other dads
because being a macho black athlete and like they sit
(23:30):
in the room going, wow, he was in denial and
they're like, see, honey, he's in denial and he figured
it out. And so that's a powerful it's some powerful
image to put out there. Right, tell us about r
J today? Yeah, you go, Phil, You still doing them
(23:52):
water works things? Huh. Well. He now works with the
Los Angeles Dodgers. He's a clubhouse attendant. They love him.
And every time I like I put on social media
or a post I say thank you Dodgers for giving
my son a job. They always write me back, going, no,
thank you for RJ. You know what he brings to
(24:13):
this clubhouse. We've had some tough losses over the last
few years. RJ is the guy that has to put
the champagne back at the sixth inning, you know, when
we're gonna lose the World Series or whatever. So it's
an emotional thing, an emotional journey. So when the doctor
told us he would never have a job and he
would probably never have friends, Yeah, he never had friends
(24:36):
growing up, and now he has, you know, a whole
dugout full of friends. And that's really just so powerful.
So RJ is driving. J is, he's communicating, he's connecting.
He has a great job, his dream job, makes its
own money, does his own banking. I mean he is,
(24:58):
and he's happy. Like he said, he's driving, and he's
connecting with people. Still has issues, still has a lot
of OCD. Can't talk to women or girls yet. And
he's I'm not just saying this because he's my baby,
but he's gorgeous and so it's a success story. Yeah,
it's a kid that was the one we were worried
(25:21):
that was kind of pushing us apart together brought us
back together and still does. Did you go to the
couple's therapy? Yes, yeah, from day one. By the way,
I should say that was the one of traveling to
far places was one criteria and the other was you
have to be willing to sit down with a shrink.
(25:43):
And Rodney Pete did not come from that's not in
his background, Like his parents were like, where are you
are you giving my son a lobotomy? And so he
had to be willing to do that. And when he
said yes to that, because these little strong black men
don't do that. They do not sit down in a
room and have some person tell them anything. That's just
they'll go to a pastor or a preacher. We lent
(26:06):
a couple of times the irishman here sit well with him.
We had a fight in front of the therapist the
first day and he left slammed the door. Before we
were married, and the therapist was my therapist, and the
therapist said to me, this is not the guy for you.
(26:27):
That sounds like mine. But never day lady, you know,
because I mean in the middle of meeting and gets
mad and leaves. It's not a good sign at all.
This guy's not good for you. But but it was
interesting because every time we would run into that therapist
years later, he would say, you guys kill me. You
don't resolve anything, do We don't resolve everything. You can't
(26:48):
resolve everything. So I like that. I mean, you can't
resolve everything, and I do. I think if if I
have one of my very few faults that I have, UM,
if that I do try to micromanage, you know, our
relationship sometimes. Um. The autism thing was rough, But you
mentioned the other hurdle number two or three. I lost
(27:12):
count retirement when he retired. Yeah, when the lights went
out on the football career, I thought I was ready
for it, but I think I was so worn out
from the autism stuff that I was like, uh, you know,
is this now what? First of all, you don't want
(27:33):
it to end because it's something you've done for eight
years old. And then on top of that, it ends
at thirty eight and everybody's just in the prime of
their working career at that time, you know, and so
thirty eight is old for question. Yeah exactly. So now
you're at you know, thirty eight years old, and you're like, Okay,
I just had, you know, wonderful life doing what I
(27:54):
always wanted to do. That's over. Where am I going
to find that high? Where am I going to find
that same feeling? Yeah? Where am I gonna get that
rush from? And I went right from playing to a
show being hired by father to do a pretty popular
show called Best Damn Sports Show. But I wasn't happy.
(28:15):
I mean I was like still thinking that was going
to get feel that boy. So it spent a lot
of time chasing that rush because there was no handbook,
There was no hambig say this is what you're supposed
to do or feel like or all those type of things.
And then the other thing that was happening was Rodney
was in miss pain from playing football. They had opioids
(28:38):
hanging out in the you know, like mints in the
locker rooms, and so he was dealing with to get
them through the game, you mean, get him through the game,
get him through life, get him through the week, you know,
And he was drinking, and so he was dealing with
all of those things on top of retiring and then
(28:58):
me and denial about what those things were causing. And
he didn't know how many concussions he had. He had
so many As an athlete, you just deal. You just
basically live within paying because in football especially you play
on a Sunday, you don't feel good until that following
Friday or Saturday because you're dealing with the pain from
(29:18):
the past Sunday opioids and things that they gave you
that we find out now there was just so terrible
detriment to your body. It was they give it out
like candy. Yeah, there were There were definitely dark moments
and dark times and drinking and all that game and
taking pills. Found myself constantly, you know, like when you
dream and you're you're gonna plate you fall and you
(29:40):
can't stop falling. You're always falling. You can't find anywhere
to see. It was that kind of feeling in terms
of chasing that rush. Retirement. It's a huge thing. Yeah,
everybody in the world is going to have to retire
at some point. And I think the biggest thing, in
the biggest part of it is, and it's one hundred
percent true, is that I would not be here being
(30:04):
able to overcome a lot of things that I've been
able to work through and overcome if she was not
willing to work it out with me. You've been through
so many big tsunamis, you know, and you've and you've
ridden the wave and hung onto each other through it.
(30:25):
I mean, what if that isn't love? What is still
and still doing it tomorrow? Like still there, like still
still some of the repercussions of some of the decisions
that were made, still paying for that a little bit,
still dealing with that. And um, I think we're still work.
Everybody's a work in pros right right till the end.
(30:46):
One couple we've said, they said, we're always under construction.
I mean you are. We we are too. Don't think
we've made it. I mean we're you know, we're still
riding the waves of all kinds of stuff that we
have to You're you guys have been amazing. I mean
it's really really so juicy. So sorry it has. And
(31:09):
as we were wrapping up, Holly and Rodney had some
terrific advice for all couples who are works in progress.
We do something called we call it same page love,
where if you're on the same page, things are good.
When you're on a different chapter or even a whole
other book, that's a bad thing. So when you say
we try to get the same page love. Is that
like an exercise? Yeah, let's sit down, allow each other
(31:32):
to talk and listen. Give them a time limit, maybe
it's fifteen minutes. Okay, now you're on the clock. Because
what happens is you come to an agreement a couple
that also is a twenty second hug. Yeah I read that.
Oh my gosh, someone, if I call for it, she's
got to give it to me and vice versa. Can't
pull away, You got to hold that hug. There's all
(31:54):
this energy going on. You want to just fucking kill him.
What happens, even though you're angry, you start reminiscing about
why you're together and what it means to be together.
I think it's a physical your heart. I mean, all
that comes out right, it's just a it's the connection.
(32:17):
That's Rodney and Holly Robinson peak. What an inspiring couple.
It just goes to show that with bravery and perseverance,
you can get through almost anything as a couple as
long as you have the right person on your team.
Until next time, I'm Phill down to you and I'm
Marlo Thomas. Well, you gave us two great pieces of advice.
(32:39):
The twenty second Hug and the and the get on
the same page age love. That's great. That's our little hashtag.
That's great to have a hashtag these days. Marlod double Day.
There's a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created
by us and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is
(33:00):
associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You
by Cellwagon, Simfinette, Marlo and I are exactly producers, along
with Mia Lobel and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special thanks
to Jacob Wiseburg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Fame, John Snars, Carly Migliori,
(33:23):
Eric Sandler, Emily Rosdek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Kluger.
If you like our show, please remember to share, rate,
and review. Thanks for listening.
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