May 5, 2022 • 39 mins
Anita Hill speaks with Thelma Golden, Director and Chief Curator of The Studio Museum in Harlem, about the roles space and representation play in achieving equality and how museums are being reinvented to reflect diverse artists and audiences.
If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to subscribe to our email list.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to
Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other
Pushkin shows ad free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign
(00:35):
up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts
or at Pushkin dot Fm. I think of my role
as a curator as a kind of interlocutor between artists,
their objects, and the audience. That's Belma Golden, the director
(00:58):
and chief curator of the Studio Museum in Harlem. She's
been at the helm of hundreds of exhibits, and throughout
her decades long career, Golden has been committed to the
work of artists of African descent. I think of the
exhibition as what surfaces to the public, but the work
(01:18):
has been what it means to be in collaboration, what
it means to be in communion with artists. Golden sees
art as essential to community and to culture. Visual art
can create for us this incredible space of wonder. I
think that the space of art in museums allows also
(01:41):
the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in other places.
The space of art gives us the chance to engage
with each other around ideas, through artwork. I'm Anita Hill.
This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality and what
(02:02):
it takes to get there. On Getting Even, I speak
with people who are improving, are imperfect world, people who
took risks and broke the rules. In this episode, Thelma
Golden and I discussed the role of a curator, her
journey to becoming one, and how she currently approaches her
(02:24):
work at the Studio Museum in Harlem. I just want
to start out by saying that in twenty seventeen eighteen
in Venice, it was a wonderful moment that stands out
for me and I'm sure that people didn't expect me
to be at the Venice Biennale, but they absolutely expect
(02:48):
that you would be at the Venice Biennale. Of course
you would be, And what stands out so much for
me was that you belong there. This is your space,
You have created your role in it. Everyone knows it
and they respect it. And even at my age, it's
(03:12):
important to be able to see that and to experience it.
And honestly, by experiencing your comfort there, your sense of
belonging there, and your presence and knowing what you've done,
I felt more comfortable thank you. I am very humbled
(03:32):
to be in this conversation with you. I'm so grateful
for your comments because they really speak to not only
what I aspire to as a young person when I
imagined myself entering the museum world, when I thought about
what it would mean to have a life and a
(03:54):
career in and of the arts, but also what it
is meant to continue to do this work and to
show up for this work every day. That's amazing. So
let's art with talking about your relationship with the art
world starting at an early age for you, right, yes,
(04:18):
started at a very early age through what I think
for so many of us, can always be an important
lover in our lives. And that is the introduction not
just to art, but to the idea of the history
of art that was introduced to me by a teacher
when I was in fifth grade. To that point, like
(04:39):
many children, I enjoyed what it meant to make, to
put my hands into something and create. I grew up
with a mother who was deeply creative, a mother who
could so, who cooked, who decorated, so I understood the
sort of the power and pleasure of creativity. But to
(04:59):
be introduced to the history of art, and to understand
that that history contained the histories of our cultures, of
our countries of people was fascinating to me. It was
made very possible by my parents, who then supported my
desire to go to museums. I grew up in New
(05:21):
York City, and my parents were deeply involved in the
cultural world, but their cultural interest was theater and music.
And then it was also made possible by the librarians
at the Queensboro Public Library who allowed me at a
very young age. You know, they'd lift those big, large
art books off the shelf of the art section and
(05:41):
let me sit there and look at them. And so
this was all sort of created in me, very very
early in my life. You say it was created in you,
but it was also something maybe that was intuitive, that
was their internally in you. Do you ever think that
you're right? It was perhaps cultivated and nurtured by the
(06:03):
adults around me that the possibility then, when I got
to college to begin to express the sense of what
I would do in the world, it seemed that there
was actually nothing else I imagined that I would do.
So when specifically did you first imagine that you would
actually work in a museum. Well, I put it into
(06:27):
the world when I was applying to college, and in
my college application essay, I stated that I wanted to
be a contemporary art curator. So I think that was
the moment when I began to say it. Through my
college years, I was in art history an African American
Studies double major at Smith College, and during those years
(06:51):
studying in those two disciplines, I had many, many internships,
but the most significant internship that I had was in
nineteen eighty five. I was an intern at the Studio
Museum in Harlem, and that internship shaped me. It seemed
somewhat telling the story now, it always feels like, well, then,
(07:12):
of course you are director of the Studio Museum now,
But no, I mean that internship really created for me
a path. It gave me this sense of who I
could be in the art museum world, how I could
be in the art museum world, and it was transformative.
(07:34):
I'm just curious about the idea that you said, you
put in your application that you wanted to be a curator.
Did you know exactly what the job of a curator
was at that time? I did, But here's why I knew.
I knew what a curator was. Because I had the
(07:55):
amazing experience of being a high school intern at the
Metropolitan Museum working in a curatorial department, I came to
know very generally about the job, but more specifically because,
as I say, this interest was really courage by my parents.
My father shared with me a picture of a curator
who was a curator at that time at the Metropolitan Museum,
(08:18):
and her picture was in a magazine and her name
was Lowry Stoke Sims. And Lowry was the first African
American curator of modern and contemporary art at the Metropolitan
when she entered the Met in nineteen seventy two, before
being appointed to be director of the Studio Museum in
(08:38):
Harlem in two thousand. She is seen as a pioneer
in the art in the museum world. And so my
whole time as a high school student at the Met
my hope was that I was going to run into
Lowry Stoke Simms, you just walking through the halls. That
did not happen. But when I was in college and
had the chance to be connected with her and meet her,
(09:01):
she became instantly moved from just being this inspiration out
in the world, but became a mentor of friend, and
then I went on to work for her in two thousand,
when I came to the Studio Museum. Did you understand
the power of a curator, the power of the act
of curating art? And if so, how did you understand it?
(09:25):
And how do you understand it today? I came to
understand the power of curating when I was an intern
at the Studio Museum, because I came to understand the
institution and its history, and the way in which the institution,
through its exhibitions and its collection, had changed art history.
(09:47):
It had opened the cannon so that the histories, the lives,
the visions, and the voices of black artists would be documented.
So I understood how important this act was to create
narrative through artworks, through objects, and through the voice of
artists into creat what would be full and rich and
(10:12):
diverse art histories. And it continued to make me understand
the role that institutions and individuals and institutions have in
not only creating this opportunity for us in the present,
but how important curatorial work in the present is two
futures that have yet to be created. I think so
(10:33):
many of us who come from the humanities. Think of
creating narratives as coming from literature, but you understood it
as not only coming from art itself, but also coming
from the way art is presented. Yes, And you know,
I think that's really a powerful message to take in.
(10:55):
That just seems so clear to me that this was
the work that you're destined to do, that you're supposed
to be doing, and it feels like that today. Well,
I have worked on lots of exhibition but you know,
exhibition making for me as a curator has really been
just one part of the work, because I think of
(11:16):
the exhibition as what surfaces to the public, But the
work has been what it means to be in collaboration,
what it means to be in communion with artists, and
sometimes that doesn't always surface into an exhibition, but I
see that really as the core of my work, and
that is one of the things that stands out about
(11:37):
you and your work. But I do want to think
about your memory of the various exhibitions. Can you tell
us when you really feel that an exhibition that you
curate it actually reflected your vision for art. You know,
(12:00):
I have to say that I believe that every exhibition
I've made has reflected my vision for art. So as
a curator, I often see my exhibitions existing in a
particular moment. I've often said sometimes exhibitions are the way
to ask and answer questions, and for me, those questions
(12:21):
in particular continue to change and evolve, so that I'm
always entering into curating with the same core principles, but
the nature of what it means to think through objects
and through artists has changed for me over the course
of my career. And you focus on not only what
(12:42):
the audience is feeling, but also you focus on the artists.
And can you say more about how your focus is
on the artist who you've worked with. I think of
my role as a curator as a kind of interlocutor
between artists, their objects, and the audience. And I think
(13:06):
that when I'm operating at my best in this role
that actually my role is the least significant in that equation.
It is the one that, though is creating the opportunity
for the conversation between an artist, their objects and ideas,
and the audience itself. Now, not every artist I've worked
(13:27):
with is living, but I kind of carry that same
sensibility even when I'm working with an artist that I
don't have the opportunity to have the kind of conversation with.
But most of my work has been with living artists,
and it really has been about how can I be
in service to creating an intellectual space, a physical space
(13:49):
in the form of an exhibition for their work, for
their voice, for their vision. But it seems to me
that you also see the art that you work with
as having the possibility of shaping culture. How does that
play in then to the way it's exhibited. I think
(14:13):
that art, the arts broadly, but visual art specifically, provides
the opportunity for us to as audience members, to have
many different kinds of experiences. It can be an experience
of inspiration. Visual art can create for us this incredible
(14:34):
space of wonder. It can be a space of instigation.
Works of art can allow us to think about the
world in different ways, seeing it through the vision of artists.
I think that the space of art in museums allows
also the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in
(14:58):
other places. The space of art gives us the chance
to engage with each other around ideas through artwork. After
the break, Val mcgolden and I discuss the importance of
art in the black community and how essential museums are
to representation and inspiration. You're listening to getting even I'm
(15:30):
Anita Hill. I'm speaking with Elma Golden, director and chief
curator of the Studio Museum about her storied career. We
also talk about how museums are being reinvented to reflect
diverse artists and audiences. Can you give us an example
of one of your exampits that really did bring about
(15:55):
a different conversation or shift the narrative about the way
the world operates, or at least encourage people to ask
different questions. There are so many different ways to answer
that question. It's such a good one, and I think
I'll go back to my beginnings and perhaps this is
(16:15):
why this has remained so important to me. And it's
important to know how you got there. What was the
very first exhibit that you curated and where was that?
The first fully conceived group exhibition I made was the
exhibition I curated in nineteen ninety four, which had the
title Blackmail Representations of Masculinity and Contemporary American Arts ninety
(16:41):
four that moment, so the Blackmail exhibition was deeply inspired
by the artworks by artists who were looking at the
image of black masculinity as it was portrayed in popular
culture and media. That moment was so defined by the
confirmation hearings, by the Simpson Trial, by Rodney King, and
(17:07):
the exhibition existed in the public's imagination sort of attached
to high level of controversy. The way in which I
saw that exhibition is that it existed within a high
level of conversation because it was an exhibition about representation,
the history of representation, how it existed in our art
(17:28):
and art historical worlds, but also how it lived in
popular culture. It was an exhibition that had a range
of artists, cross generation, but was existing in a moment
which continues where this was also existing in the world.
And for me that sort of formed me and formed
my sense of how I wanted to exist as a
(17:52):
curator in the world. And in many cases I would
suspect for that exhibit, the conversation involved lots of tensions
and lots of contradictions, and of course it did, because
life includes that. But in the space of an exhibition,
in the space of the kind of narrative and exhibition creates,
(18:15):
there was the possibility to wrestle with those contradictions, to
be in the kind of conversation that could open up
space for new ideas and ways of seeing. I really
do believe in that way, that of thinking about this
sort of space where we can engage as a community,
(18:35):
in the sort of deep thinking about who we are,
what we are, what makes us human, how we see
each other, how we understand each other. You curated that
exhibit while you were at the Whitney Museum, but ultimately
you left the Whitney and you moved uptown back to
(19:01):
the Studio Museum. What was your calculus when you made
that decision. Yes, it was quite a moment, you know,
of personal investigation and personal reckoning. Even in my own family,
you know, my parents had very different views of this move.
(19:21):
It was interesting to me that my parents did not agree.
One of them thought very specifically that because I'd been
at the Whitney for over a decade and it was
the first African American curator there, that I was, you know, pathbreaker,
that I should continue that within an institution that lived
within that sense of power and privilege in history. And
(19:45):
my other parent felt the opposite. My other parent felt
that I had been educated from kindergarten all the way
through college in prestigious, mainstream institutions that lived within this
sense of power and privilege. And yes, I had had
this incredible experience at the Whitney, but the reality was
(20:05):
that my job at the Whitney ended. I was longer
at the Whitney. I was considering what my next step
would be. And when the call came that let me
know that Lowry Stokes Sims was being appointed to be
the director of the Studio Museum and was interested in
a conversation with me to be her chief curator. That
(20:26):
is all I needed, right the idea of what it
would mean to work for Lowry, to work with Lowry
at an institution that not only was incredibly important to
me that early internship experience, but also to do it
with Lowry at a moment which potentially, as we discussed
(20:49):
what could be, could begin to imagine the museum at
the next phase of its life. And here we are
in twenty twenty two, and I am celebrating my twenty
second year at the museum, and I am so proud
of that and feel privileged to have had this experience.
And it sounds like you are excited about not only
(21:11):
what you went into, but where it has grown, where
the Studio Museum has grown as the world's leading institution
devoted to the visual art by artists of African descent.
I don't think it's by chance that the Studio Museum
is in Harlem. Was it important for you to be
(21:32):
in the Harlem community in doing your work there? Well,
it was important to me to be in an institution
that formed itself around an idea of art and artists.
That's where the Studio in our name comes from. That
was created in a radical revisioning of what museum could
be in our name, but cited itself in the Harlem
(21:56):
community in the present of our founding, but also look
back to the past of Harlem when we were founded.
But also I believe that those who were involved in
the creation of the Studio Museum and we're also making
a stake into the future that exists for us now.
It seems to me that what you're talking about in
(22:17):
terms of the space and the Studio Museum was about
was a revision of what museums can be and what
they needed to be for the future. I don't think
that everyone has learned the lesson because I think even
today what we have and certainly historically museums have been
(22:41):
oppressively white spaces where you visit it and you see
things on the wall. You don't see the artists. You
see the art. You may find out a few things
about the artists, but the primary focus to me in
my experience, is that the exhibits are about the art.
They're primarily, let's say, located in white, upper class, middle
(23:07):
class neighborhoods. We tend to think of the patrons as
being primarily not people of color, and the exhibits, as
well as the costliness of admissions into these spaces are
somewhat prohibitive for many people. Is enough being done to
(23:28):
revise what a museum can be. I mean, it seems
to mean you've got a very inclusive approach to your work,
but I'm not sure that we see that throughout the
museum world. I think that museums can be different, and
the reason I know that is because in looking at
the history of museums, we have had many periods of
(23:50):
reinvention and reevaluation of museums that have created two models.
The museum that I'm privilegedly was part of that in
the late sixties when museums were being protested here in
New York City because of their exclusion of black and
Latino and women artists, and these protests were being led
primarily by artists but also concerned citizens, and these were
(24:13):
the great museums in New York City. That while there
was an effort in those protests to shift and change
those institutions, there also was an effort to create new
institutional models. And the Studio Museum in Harlem and Elms
Debater here in New York came out of that moment.
So is enough being done? There's much more work to
(24:35):
be done, And I think the field acknowledges in this
moment the necessity for that work. But it's not simply
a case of revision. In some cases, it's a case
of reinvention. So I think that we're also in a
moment where we're going to see new models. You know,
we see so many arts institutions now, for example, being
(24:56):
started by artists taking away this idea of who and
how we understand the formation of institution, but creating spaces
that clearly reflect directly the needs of audience. We have
to make the experience something that can be meaningful welcoming
for everyone, right, And so does that mean have a
(25:18):
more diversity in terms of the directors of the museum curators?
How do you realize or reinvent or revise what we
have now? I think all of the above and then some.
But what I'll say about that is I think that
in every situation it might be a different combination of
(25:39):
those factors. I think that the other part of this
that's most important to me is that while institutions exist
in this way that they are broad, we also have
to really acknowledge the specificity of who we are institutionally
and lean into that as we try to reimagine and reinvent.
(26:01):
So if we have an institutional mandate to create access,
we have to then also take the steps to say, well,
what does access look like and what is that experience
in real terms when visitors come to the museum. We
also have to think about, you know, how we make
(26:22):
art and we make culture more truly accessible so that
it has the opportunity to exist for all people and
we can move to a place where we can see
an art in a museum where the barriers that we
know that still exists for many people don't continue to exist.
(26:43):
So you are now at the Studio Museum. You are
developing a new space in terms of a new building,
which is so so, so exciting. Can you tell us
how that came about? Yes, it is so exciting, and
(27:03):
it came about really through the sort of vision I
would say of all the directors of the Studio Museum
that came before me. And the reason I say that
is because the ambition for this institution began at its founding.
And even though at our founding we were in a
(27:25):
rented second story space over a liquor store on Fifth
Avenue between one hundred twenty fifth Street one hundred and
twenty six Street, the vision for what would be a
state of the art, purpose built building to celebrate and
stewart the work of black artists was always what I know,
they imagine. So we embarked on this project, selected the
(27:50):
architects Sir David Ajay to design the building. David known
of course for his design of the National Museum of
African American History and Culture, but significant also for us
at the Studio Museum because of his ongoing work with
art and artists specifically. And so we close the building,
the old building in twenty eighteen and began a process
(28:14):
that began with its demolition to now we are in
construction on this new space and hope to be open
in a few years. I listen to you speak and
you talk about the history, the present, and the future.
Do you ever hear from people who say, well, there
are so many other problems that we're having in the
(28:36):
black community in Harlem in the world, that is the
museum the place to put this money. What I often
hear is a nuanced and subtle understanding that this museum,
but perhaps a museum, a cultural institution, is important within
(28:58):
the civic life of a community like Harlem. We are
very privileged in Harlem to work among some iconic cultural institutions,
and I think there is an incredible understanding in our
community of the way in which cultural institutions have been
anchors in the community in this community for some almost
(29:20):
a century for many of us a half a century,
and the desire for that to continue as a way
to continue to support the constant need for this community,
and a need that comes from the care and the
commitment that cultural institutions have to the lives of those
(29:41):
in our immediate neighborhood and throughout the city and essentially
throughout the world. It seems to me personally that art
has always been part of the life blood of a community,
of any community, but particularly this community, and it brings
vibrancy and that it brings joy into a community, which
(30:03):
is essential for communities to grow and prosper. Yes, it is,
it's essential, and that it brings joy, It brings a
sense of being able to ground into a space of inspiration.
It allows for the ability to engage with a sense
(30:24):
of one's own humanity, and all of that kind of
lives as deeply important and is acknowledged as such because
of the important place culture place within the Black community.
I want to explore this idea of where art is today.
I read the term post black art, and so for
(30:47):
someone who doesn't really understand the term, how would you
explain post black art. Yes, well, the term post black
as it was engaged around an exhibition that I curated
with the curator Christine Kim in two thousand and one,
an exhibition called Freestyle, which was an exhibition that looked
(31:12):
at the work of emerging black artists at that moment.
And what we were speaking about was the generational shift
that we saw that at first was subtle and then
became so much more apparent of a younger generation of
Black artists who were looking beyond the Black arts movement
(31:33):
as a way to understand themselves, their identity and culture
in the work that they were making. Oh, have we
evolved to a new generation for young black artists? Are
they in a different place now than they were when
you coined the phrase? Definitely? And that's what I think
is so important and significant about thinking about art that
(31:54):
you know, often we want to think in these long lineages,
but quite often when we look at the world and
how the world moves, that shifts become clear and apparent
in much more discrete ways. So that that exhibition in
two thousand and one, which included artists like Julie Murettu
and Mark Bradford and Sanford Baggers and so many others.
(32:18):
You know, if we look now and we see we've
had almost two groups of artists since that continue to reimagine,
redefine the space of what it means to make work
in this moment. And I also see those artists as
really moving society forward, not only moving art forward, but
(32:40):
moving society forward in our understanding about what art is
and what it does for us. I agree, and I
think that's why I continue to want to create space,
protect space, make more space for the visions and voices
of artists, and want to come back to Laurie Stokes SMS.
(33:04):
She has said that guardians of black culture are not
the gatekeepers. Many people may assume that people who hold
certain positions in the art world are untouchable or unattainable.
Do you see yourself as a guardian of black culture?
Not perhaps in the way that maybe others might imagine
(33:28):
that the term would mean. So I see myself as
a guardian in the sense that I want to protect
the space for black artists to work and to live
and to be. I want to create the structures that
support their creativity. I want to always be in a
(33:51):
space of interpretive power around making space for their work
and for them to be in the world. I see
myself as someone who is working in collaboration with artists
around making it possible for them to do what they do,
(34:13):
as it relates to how that can exist into a
public I do see you as being the guardian, not
the gatekeeper, and I see your work as expanding space
for the black radical imagination and art, as well as
enlarging our own imagination the public's imagination about where black
(34:38):
artists and their art belongs. When I became a university
professor in Brandeis, I was at a point when I
was starting to understand the power of art, and I
gave my university lecture to the university on a fairly
arcane legal principle around the equality and the way the
(34:59):
Supreme Court would interpret whether something was equal. And what
I chose to do rather than have a PowerPoint president
tation with notes, was to use art from our collection.
Photos of art from our collection that reflected to me
(35:20):
some of the points that I wanted to make in
my lecture about the law, and so that I think
that was one of the best experiences that I've had
in my teaching. Fantastic. I love, absolutely love hearing that
what we do, what I do in the classroom is curate.
(35:45):
To get prepared for a lecture, I am curating ideas exactly,
and so understanding what a curator does has also helped
me to understand my teaching. So I just want to
say thank you for being who you are and doing
(36:05):
what you do and for your continued attention to the
issues of culture, narrative change, positive change, and what in
my own work amounts to the creation of a more
equal society. Thank you, thank you for those words. I
(36:30):
am so grateful to you and will continue to feel
grateful for the space that you've created that's made it
possible for so many of us to chart these incredible
paths that will create a difference for the generations behind us.
(36:52):
As a curator, Thelma Golden shapes her exhibits narratives. As
a museum director, she shapes the identity of museum space,
expanding who it belongs to. Both are powerful roles, and
she uses them to help us understand how location, representation,
(37:12):
and creative fulfillment are linked to equity. Golden is a
leader in a movement to change museum world thinking about
artists and audiences access to art. I have no doubt
that her optimistic vision of museums as inclusive faces will
be on full display in the New Studio Museum, and
(37:36):
I look forward to its opening. In the next episode,
I speak with Houston based artists and community organizer Rick Low.
We discuss his work with Project row Houses, which is
both an art project and a housing project. The way
(37:56):
the houses are set up this fifteen on one block
and seven on the other block, and I remember we
were talking about what should we do with the other houses.
The logical thinking was that, oh, we should we should
have artists residents who live here, and that was a
logical thing. But as I was speaking with a woman
who was working with us as an administrator, she came
(38:18):
up with this idea, because what if we tried to
do a housing program from teen Mothers? Getting Even is
a production of Pushkin Industries and it's written and hosted
by me Anita Hill. It is produced by Mola Board
and Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer
is Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias.
(38:43):
Luis Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive
producers are Mia Lobel and Letal Malad. Our Director of
Development is Justine Lane. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg.
(39:08):
You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and
on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on
all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign
up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. If you
love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing
(39:31):
to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can
hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free and
receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting Even
show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm.
To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
(39:55):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen
Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to
Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other
Pushkin shows ad free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign
(00:35):
up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts
or at Pushkin dot Fm. I think of my role
as a curator as a kind of interlocutor between artists,
their objects, and the audience. That's Belma Golden, the director
(00:58):
and chief curator of the Studio Museum in Harlem. She's
been at the helm of hundreds of exhibits, and throughout
her decades long career, Golden has been committed to the
work of artists of African descent. I think of the
exhibition as what surfaces to the public, but the work
(01:18):
has been what it means to be in collaboration, what
it means to be in communion with artists. Golden sees
art as essential to community and to culture. Visual art
can create for us this incredible space of wonder. I
think that the space of art in museums allows also
(01:41):
the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in other places.
The space of art gives us the chance to engage
with each other around ideas, through artwork. I'm Anita Hill.
This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality and what
(02:02):
it takes to get there. On Getting Even, I speak
with people who are improving, are imperfect world, people who
took risks and broke the rules. In this episode, Thelma
Golden and I discussed the role of a curator, her
journey to becoming one, and how she currently approaches her
(02:24):
work at the Studio Museum in Harlem. I just want
to start out by saying that in twenty seventeen eighteen
in Venice, it was a wonderful moment that stands out
for me and I'm sure that people didn't expect me
to be at the Venice Biennale, but they absolutely expect
(02:48):
that you would be at the Venice Biennale. Of course
you would be, And what stands out so much for
me was that you belong there. This is your space,
You have created your role in it. Everyone knows it
and they respect it. And even at my age, it's
(03:12):
important to be able to see that and to experience it.
And honestly, by experiencing your comfort there, your sense of
belonging there, and your presence and knowing what you've done,
I felt more comfortable thank you. I am very humbled
(03:32):
to be in this conversation with you. I'm so grateful
for your comments because they really speak to not only
what I aspire to as a young person when I
imagined myself entering the museum world, when I thought about
what it would mean to have a life and a
(03:54):
career in and of the arts, but also what it
is meant to continue to do this work and to
show up for this work every day. That's amazing. So
let's art with talking about your relationship with the art
world starting at an early age for you, right, yes,
(04:18):
started at a very early age through what I think
for so many of us, can always be an important
lover in our lives. And that is the introduction not
just to art, but to the idea of the history
of art that was introduced to me by a teacher
when I was in fifth grade. To that point, like
(04:39):
many children, I enjoyed what it meant to make, to
put my hands into something and create. I grew up
with a mother who was deeply creative, a mother who
could so, who cooked, who decorated, so I understood the
sort of the power and pleasure of creativity. But to
(04:59):
be introduced to the history of art, and to understand
that that history contained the histories of our cultures, of
our countries of people was fascinating to me. It was
made very possible by my parents, who then supported my
desire to go to museums. I grew up in New
(05:21):
York City, and my parents were deeply involved in the
cultural world, but their cultural interest was theater and music.
And then it was also made possible by the librarians
at the Queensboro Public Library who allowed me at a
very young age. You know, they'd lift those big, large
art books off the shelf of the art section and
(05:41):
let me sit there and look at them. And so
this was all sort of created in me, very very
early in my life. You say it was created in you,
but it was also something maybe that was intuitive, that
was their internally in you. Do you ever think that
you're right? It was perhaps cultivated and nurtured by the
(06:03):
adults around me that the possibility then, when I got
to college to begin to express the sense of what
I would do in the world, it seemed that there
was actually nothing else I imagined that I would do.
So when specifically did you first imagine that you would
actually work in a museum. Well, I put it into
(06:27):
the world when I was applying to college, and in
my college application essay, I stated that I wanted to
be a contemporary art curator. So I think that was
the moment when I began to say it. Through my
college years, I was in art history an African American
Studies double major at Smith College, and during those years
(06:51):
studying in those two disciplines, I had many, many internships,
but the most significant internship that I had was in
nineteen eighty five. I was an intern at the Studio
Museum in Harlem, and that internship shaped me. It seemed
somewhat telling the story now, it always feels like, well, then,
(07:12):
of course you are director of the Studio Museum now,
But no, I mean that internship really created for me
a path. It gave me this sense of who I
could be in the art museum world, how I could
be in the art museum world, and it was transformative.
(07:34):
I'm just curious about the idea that you said, you
put in your application that you wanted to be a curator.
Did you know exactly what the job of a curator
was at that time? I did, But here's why I knew.
I knew what a curator was. Because I had the
(07:55):
amazing experience of being a high school intern at the
Metropolitan Museum working in a curatorial department, I came to
know very generally about the job, but more specifically because,
as I say, this interest was really courage by my parents.
My father shared with me a picture of a curator
who was a curator at that time at the Metropolitan Museum,
(08:18):
and her picture was in a magazine and her name
was Lowry Stoke Sims. And Lowry was the first African
American curator of modern and contemporary art at the Metropolitan
when she entered the Met in nineteen seventy two, before
being appointed to be director of the Studio Museum in
(08:38):
Harlem in two thousand. She is seen as a pioneer
in the art in the museum world. And so my
whole time as a high school student at the Met
my hope was that I was going to run into
Lowry Stoke Simms, you just walking through the halls. That
did not happen. But when I was in college and
had the chance to be connected with her and meet her,
(09:01):
she became instantly moved from just being this inspiration out
in the world, but became a mentor of friend, and
then I went on to work for her in two thousand,
when I came to the Studio Museum. Did you understand
the power of a curator, the power of the act
of curating art? And if so, how did you understand it?
(09:25):
And how do you understand it today? I came to
understand the power of curating when I was an intern
at the Studio Museum, because I came to understand the
institution and its history, and the way in which the institution,
through its exhibitions and its collection, had changed art history.
(09:47):
It had opened the cannon so that the histories, the lives,
the visions, and the voices of black artists would be documented.
So I understood how important this act was to create
narrative through artworks, through objects, and through the voice of
artists into creat what would be full and rich and
(10:12):
diverse art histories. And it continued to make me understand
the role that institutions and individuals and institutions have in
not only creating this opportunity for us in the present,
but how important curatorial work in the present is two
futures that have yet to be created. I think so
(10:33):
many of us who come from the humanities. Think of
creating narratives as coming from literature, but you understood it
as not only coming from art itself, but also coming
from the way art is presented. Yes, And you know,
I think that's really a powerful message to take in.
(10:55):
That just seems so clear to me that this was
the work that you're destined to do, that you're supposed
to be doing, and it feels like that today. Well,
I have worked on lots of exhibition but you know,
exhibition making for me as a curator has really been
just one part of the work, because I think of
(11:16):
the exhibition as what surfaces to the public, But the
work has been what it means to be in collaboration,
what it means to be in communion with artists, and
sometimes that doesn't always surface into an exhibition, but I
see that really as the core of my work, and
that is one of the things that stands out about
(11:37):
you and your work. But I do want to think
about your memory of the various exhibitions. Can you tell
us when you really feel that an exhibition that you
curate it actually reflected your vision for art. You know,
(12:00):
I have to say that I believe that every exhibition
I've made has reflected my vision for art. So as
a curator, I often see my exhibitions existing in a
particular moment. I've often said sometimes exhibitions are the way
to ask and answer questions, and for me, those questions
(12:21):
in particular continue to change and evolve, so that I'm
always entering into curating with the same core principles, but
the nature of what it means to think through objects
and through artists has changed for me over the course
of my career. And you focus on not only what
(12:42):
the audience is feeling, but also you focus on the artists.
And can you say more about how your focus is
on the artist who you've worked with. I think of
my role as a curator as a kind of interlocutor
between artists, their objects, and the audience. And I think
(13:06):
that when I'm operating at my best in this role
that actually my role is the least significant in that equation.
It is the one that, though is creating the opportunity
for the conversation between an artist, their objects and ideas,
and the audience itself. Now, not every artist I've worked
(13:27):
with is living, but I kind of carry that same
sensibility even when I'm working with an artist that I
don't have the opportunity to have the kind of conversation with.
But most of my work has been with living artists,
and it really has been about how can I be
in service to creating an intellectual space, a physical space
(13:49):
in the form of an exhibition for their work, for
their voice, for their vision. But it seems to me
that you also see the art that you work with
as having the possibility of shaping culture. How does that
play in then to the way it's exhibited. I think
(14:13):
that art, the arts broadly, but visual art specifically, provides
the opportunity for us to as audience members, to have
many different kinds of experiences. It can be an experience
of inspiration. Visual art can create for us this incredible
(14:34):
space of wonder. It can be a space of instigation.
Works of art can allow us to think about the
world in different ways, seeing it through the vision of artists.
I think that the space of art in museums allows
also the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in
(14:58):
other places. The space of art gives us the chance
to engage with each other around ideas through artwork. After
the break, Val mcgolden and I discuss the importance of
art in the black community and how essential museums are
to representation and inspiration. You're listening to getting even I'm
(15:30):
Anita Hill. I'm speaking with Elma Golden, director and chief
curator of the Studio Museum about her storied career. We
also talk about how museums are being reinvented to reflect
diverse artists and audiences. Can you give us an example
of one of your exampits that really did bring about
(15:55):
a different conversation or shift the narrative about the way
the world operates, or at least encourage people to ask
different questions. There are so many different ways to answer
that question. It's such a good one, and I think
I'll go back to my beginnings and perhaps this is
(16:15):
why this has remained so important to me. And it's
important to know how you got there. What was the
very first exhibit that you curated and where was that?
The first fully conceived group exhibition I made was the
exhibition I curated in nineteen ninety four, which had the
title Blackmail Representations of Masculinity and Contemporary American Arts ninety
(16:41):
four that moment, so the Blackmail exhibition was deeply inspired
by the artworks by artists who were looking at the
image of black masculinity as it was portrayed in popular
culture and media. That moment was so defined by the
confirmation hearings, by the Simpson Trial, by Rodney King, and
(17:07):
the exhibition existed in the public's imagination sort of attached
to high level of controversy. The way in which I
saw that exhibition is that it existed within a high
level of conversation because it was an exhibition about representation,
the history of representation, how it existed in our art
(17:28):
and art historical worlds, but also how it lived in
popular culture. It was an exhibition that had a range
of artists, cross generation, but was existing in a moment
which continues where this was also existing in the world.
And for me that sort of formed me and formed
my sense of how I wanted to exist as a
(17:52):
curator in the world. And in many cases I would
suspect for that exhibit, the conversation involved lots of tensions
and lots of contradictions, and of course it did, because
life includes that. But in the space of an exhibition,
in the space of the kind of narrative and exhibition creates,
(18:15):
there was the possibility to wrestle with those contradictions, to
be in the kind of conversation that could open up
space for new ideas and ways of seeing. I really
do believe in that way, that of thinking about this
sort of space where we can engage as a community,
(18:35):
in the sort of deep thinking about who we are,
what we are, what makes us human, how we see
each other, how we understand each other. You curated that
exhibit while you were at the Whitney Museum, but ultimately
you left the Whitney and you moved uptown back to
(19:01):
the Studio Museum. What was your calculus when you made
that decision. Yes, it was quite a moment, you know,
of personal investigation and personal reckoning. Even in my own family,
you know, my parents had very different views of this move.
(19:21):
It was interesting to me that my parents did not agree.
One of them thought very specifically that because I'd been
at the Whitney for over a decade and it was
the first African American curator there, that I was, you know, pathbreaker,
that I should continue that within an institution that lived
within that sense of power and privilege in history. And
(19:45):
my other parent felt the opposite. My other parent felt
that I had been educated from kindergarten all the way
through college in prestigious, mainstream institutions that lived within this
sense of power and privilege. And yes, I had had
this incredible experience at the Whitney, but the reality was
(20:05):
that my job at the Whitney ended. I was longer
at the Whitney. I was considering what my next step
would be. And when the call came that let me
know that Lowry Stokes Sims was being appointed to be
the director of the Studio Museum and was interested in
a conversation with me to be her chief curator. That
(20:26):
is all I needed, right the idea of what it
would mean to work for Lowry, to work with Lowry
at an institution that not only was incredibly important to
me that early internship experience, but also to do it
with Lowry at a moment which potentially, as we discussed
(20:49):
what could be, could begin to imagine the museum at
the next phase of its life. And here we are
in twenty twenty two, and I am celebrating my twenty
second year at the museum, and I am so proud
of that and feel privileged to have had this experience.
And it sounds like you are excited about not only
(21:11):
what you went into, but where it has grown, where
the Studio Museum has grown as the world's leading institution
devoted to the visual art by artists of African descent.
I don't think it's by chance that the Studio Museum
is in Harlem. Was it important for you to be
(21:32):
in the Harlem community in doing your work there? Well,
it was important to me to be in an institution
that formed itself around an idea of art and artists.
That's where the Studio in our name comes from. That
was created in a radical revisioning of what museum could
be in our name, but cited itself in the Harlem
(21:56):
community in the present of our founding, but also look
back to the past of Harlem when we were founded.
But also I believe that those who were involved in
the creation of the Studio Museum and we're also making
a stake into the future that exists for us now.
It seems to me that what you're talking about in
(22:17):
terms of the space and the Studio Museum was about
was a revision of what museums can be and what
they needed to be for the future. I don't think
that everyone has learned the lesson because I think even
today what we have and certainly historically museums have been
(22:41):
oppressively white spaces where you visit it and you see
things on the wall. You don't see the artists. You
see the art. You may find out a few things
about the artists, but the primary focus to me in
my experience, is that the exhibits are about the art.
They're primarily, let's say, located in white, upper class, middle
(23:07):
class neighborhoods. We tend to think of the patrons as
being primarily not people of color, and the exhibits, as
well as the costliness of admissions into these spaces are
somewhat prohibitive for many people. Is enough being done to
(23:28):
revise what a museum can be. I mean, it seems
to mean you've got a very inclusive approach to your work,
but I'm not sure that we see that throughout the
museum world. I think that museums can be different, and
the reason I know that is because in looking at
the history of museums, we have had many periods of
(23:50):
reinvention and reevaluation of museums that have created two models.
The museum that I'm privilegedly was part of that in
the late sixties when museums were being protested here in
New York City because of their exclusion of black and
Latino and women artists, and these protests were being led
primarily by artists but also concerned citizens, and these were
(24:13):
the great museums in New York City. That while there
was an effort in those protests to shift and change
those institutions, there also was an effort to create new
institutional models. And the Studio Museum in Harlem and Elms
Debater here in New York came out of that moment.
So is enough being done? There's much more work to
(24:35):
be done, And I think the field acknowledges in this
moment the necessity for that work. But it's not simply
a case of revision. In some cases, it's a case
of reinvention. So I think that we're also in a
moment where we're going to see new models. You know,
we see so many arts institutions now, for example, being
(24:56):
started by artists taking away this idea of who and
how we understand the formation of institution, but creating spaces
that clearly reflect directly the needs of audience. We have
to make the experience something that can be meaningful welcoming
for everyone, right, And so does that mean have a
(25:18):
more diversity in terms of the directors of the museum curators?
How do you realize or reinvent or revise what we
have now? I think all of the above and then some.
But what I'll say about that is I think that
in every situation it might be a different combination of
(25:39):
those factors. I think that the other part of this
that's most important to me is that while institutions exist
in this way that they are broad, we also have
to really acknowledge the specificity of who we are institutionally
and lean into that as we try to reimagine and reinvent.
(26:01):
So if we have an institutional mandate to create access,
we have to then also take the steps to say, well,
what does access look like and what is that experience
in real terms when visitors come to the museum. We
also have to think about, you know, how we make
(26:22):
art and we make culture more truly accessible so that
it has the opportunity to exist for all people and
we can move to a place where we can see
an art in a museum where the barriers that we
know that still exists for many people don't continue to exist.
(26:43):
So you are now at the Studio Museum. You are
developing a new space in terms of a new building,
which is so so, so exciting. Can you tell us
how that came about? Yes, it is so exciting, and
(27:03):
it came about really through the sort of vision I
would say of all the directors of the Studio Museum
that came before me. And the reason I say that
is because the ambition for this institution began at its founding.
And even though at our founding we were in a
(27:25):
rented second story space over a liquor store on Fifth
Avenue between one hundred twenty fifth Street one hundred and
twenty six Street, the vision for what would be a
state of the art, purpose built building to celebrate and
stewart the work of black artists was always what I know,
they imagine. So we embarked on this project, selected the
(27:50):
architects Sir David Ajay to design the building. David known
of course for his design of the National Museum of
African American History and Culture, but significant also for us
at the Studio Museum because of his ongoing work with
art and artists specifically. And so we close the building,
the old building in twenty eighteen and began a process
(28:14):
that began with its demolition to now we are in
construction on this new space and hope to be open
in a few years. I listen to you speak and
you talk about the history, the present, and the future.
Do you ever hear from people who say, well, there
are so many other problems that we're having in the
(28:36):
black community in Harlem in the world, that is the
museum the place to put this money. What I often
hear is a nuanced and subtle understanding that this museum,
but perhaps a museum, a cultural institution, is important within
(28:58):
the civic life of a community like Harlem. We are
very privileged in Harlem to work among some iconic cultural institutions,
and I think there is an incredible understanding in our
community of the way in which cultural institutions have been
anchors in the community in this community for some almost
(29:20):
a century for many of us a half a century,
and the desire for that to continue as a way
to continue to support the constant need for this community,
and a need that comes from the care and the
commitment that cultural institutions have to the lives of those
(29:41):
in our immediate neighborhood and throughout the city and essentially
throughout the world. It seems to me personally that art
has always been part of the life blood of a community,
of any community, but particularly this community, and it brings
vibrancy and that it brings joy into a community, which
(30:03):
is essential for communities to grow and prosper. Yes, it is,
it's essential, and that it brings joy, It brings a
sense of being able to ground into a space of inspiration.
It allows for the ability to engage with a sense
(30:24):
of one's own humanity, and all of that kind of
lives as deeply important and is acknowledged as such because
of the important place culture place within the Black community.
I want to explore this idea of where art is today.
I read the term post black art, and so for
(30:47):
someone who doesn't really understand the term, how would you
explain post black art. Yes, well, the term post black
as it was engaged around an exhibition that I curated
with the curator Christine Kim in two thousand and one,
an exhibition called Freestyle, which was an exhibition that looked
(31:12):
at the work of emerging black artists at that moment.
And what we were speaking about was the generational shift
that we saw that at first was subtle and then
became so much more apparent of a younger generation of
Black artists who were looking beyond the Black arts movement
(31:33):
as a way to understand themselves, their identity and culture
in the work that they were making. Oh, have we
evolved to a new generation for young black artists? Are
they in a different place now than they were when
you coined the phrase? Definitely? And that's what I think
is so important and significant about thinking about art that
(31:54):
you know, often we want to think in these long lineages,
but quite often when we look at the world and
how the world moves, that shifts become clear and apparent
in much more discrete ways. So that that exhibition in
two thousand and one, which included artists like Julie Murettu
and Mark Bradford and Sanford Baggers and so many others.
(32:18):
You know, if we look now and we see we've
had almost two groups of artists since that continue to reimagine,
redefine the space of what it means to make work
in this moment. And I also see those artists as
really moving society forward, not only moving art forward, but
(32:40):
moving society forward in our understanding about what art is
and what it does for us. I agree, and I
think that's why I continue to want to create space,
protect space, make more space for the visions and voices
of artists, and want to come back to Laurie Stokes SMS.
(33:04):
She has said that guardians of black culture are not
the gatekeepers. Many people may assume that people who hold
certain positions in the art world are untouchable or unattainable.
Do you see yourself as a guardian of black culture?
Not perhaps in the way that maybe others might imagine
(33:28):
that the term would mean. So I see myself as
a guardian in the sense that I want to protect
the space for black artists to work and to live
and to be. I want to create the structures that
support their creativity. I want to always be in a
(33:51):
space of interpretive power around making space for their work
and for them to be in the world. I see
myself as someone who is working in collaboration with artists
around making it possible for them to do what they do,
(34:13):
as it relates to how that can exist into a
public I do see you as being the guardian, not
the gatekeeper, and I see your work as expanding space
for the black radical imagination and art, as well as
enlarging our own imagination the public's imagination about where black
(34:38):
artists and their art belongs. When I became a university
professor in Brandeis, I was at a point when I
was starting to understand the power of art, and I
gave my university lecture to the university on a fairly
arcane legal principle around the equality and the way the
(34:59):
Supreme Court would interpret whether something was equal. And what
I chose to do rather than have a PowerPoint president
tation with notes, was to use art from our collection.
Photos of art from our collection that reflected to me
(35:20):
some of the points that I wanted to make in
my lecture about the law, and so that I think
that was one of the best experiences that I've had
in my teaching. Fantastic. I love, absolutely love hearing that
what we do, what I do in the classroom is curate.
(35:45):
To get prepared for a lecture, I am curating ideas exactly,
and so understanding what a curator does has also helped
me to understand my teaching. So I just want to
say thank you for being who you are and doing
(36:05):
what you do and for your continued attention to the
issues of culture, narrative change, positive change, and what in
my own work amounts to the creation of a more
equal society. Thank you, thank you for those words. I
(36:30):
am so grateful to you and will continue to feel
grateful for the space that you've created that's made it
possible for so many of us to chart these incredible
paths that will create a difference for the generations behind us.
(36:52):
As a curator, Thelma Golden shapes her exhibits narratives. As
a museum director, she shapes the identity of museum space,
expanding who it belongs to. Both are powerful roles, and
she uses them to help us understand how location, representation,
(37:12):
and creative fulfillment are linked to equity. Golden is a
leader in a movement to change museum world thinking about
artists and audiences access to art. I have no doubt
that her optimistic vision of museums as inclusive faces will
be on full display in the New Studio Museum, and
(37:36):
I look forward to its opening. In the next episode,
I speak with Houston based artists and community organizer Rick Low.
We discuss his work with Project row Houses, which is
both an art project and a housing project. The way
(37:56):
the houses are set up this fifteen on one block
and seven on the other block, and I remember we
were talking about what should we do with the other houses.
The logical thinking was that, oh, we should we should
have artists residents who live here, and that was a
logical thing. But as I was speaking with a woman
who was working with us as an administrator, she came
(38:18):
up with this idea, because what if we tried to
do a housing program from teen Mothers? Getting Even is
a production of Pushkin Industries and it's written and hosted
by me Anita Hill. It is produced by Mola Board
and Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer
is Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias.
(38:43):
Luis Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive
producers are Mia Lobel and Letal Malad. Our Director of
Development is Justine Lane. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg.
(39:08):
You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and
on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on
all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign
up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. If you
love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing
(39:31):
to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can
hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free and
receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting Even
show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm.
To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
(39:55):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen
Popular Podcasts
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com