June 19, 2025 • 53 mins
This week, we check back in with Scott to find out what turns his life has taken since the original episode aired in 2019.
When Scott was a heroin addict, he crossed a line he thought he would never cross. And he’s been trying to uncross it ever since.
Credits
This episode was produced by Jonathan Goldstein, Stevie Lane, Kalila Holt, and BA Parker, with editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Blumberg, Nathan Foster, Jacob Eppler, and Jackie Cohen. This episode was mixed by Bobby Lord. Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hearst, Michael Charles Smith, Podington Bear, Shadowlands, Stratus, Haley Shaw, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin Stevie Lay and I'd like to welcome you into
the studio. Thanks for being here. Oh, I'm recording. I
hope you know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Oh, thank you for telling me.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Okay, so I have your verbal consent.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yes, I'm opting in.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Okay, so I'm recording.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm also recording.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I don't remember being asked for my consent.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Jonathan, can I record?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You may, Thank you, Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
So we're gonna be re listening to an encore presentation
of an episode that we did or that you know
you produced six years ago about a man named Scott. Yes,
and here's a little glimpse behind the curtain. There's a
lot of investigation. Yes, that takes place, and you're captain
(01:04):
of the heavyweight investigative Bureau.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I love attending that my job is a PI.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, it's kind of. I mean, it's like it is.
That's what I did a lot of research I did.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
I will say that this is an episode that genuinely
at every turn we were surprised by what happened.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, and that was.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Really I feel like that was like really fun while
making it. Yeah, but like I do feel that that
translates into the story in a really amazing way.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, and at the very end, I'm going to catch
up with Scott. We're going to find out where in
his life he is all these years later.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So I guess should should we play it for the people.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Without a do or a don't? Let's sit back, pop
the foot, rest on your bark a lounger and enjoy.
But oh, sorry, did I scare you?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
No?
Speaker 5 (01:57):
No?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Okay, well I just wanted to. Sorry I got excited.
But first a word from our sponsors. Let's play truth
or dare? Okay, go ahead, No, Jackie, you cut out.
You cut out. I couldn't hear if you said truth
(02:18):
or dare? Which one did you say?
Speaker 6 (02:20):
No?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
I'm not willing, I'm not interested. I don't want to play.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Have you ever have you ever peed in a shower?
Tell the truth? Have you ever peed in a shower? Jackie.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's just not a question, John, is it?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Because the answer is yes?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Affirmative?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay? Have you ever peed in a bathtub?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Negative?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
You've never peed in a bathtub.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
That's disgusting. Why would you peel on yourself?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I'm not saying that I did you did?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
You just said no?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I didn't? Okay, Okay, you you were surprised because I'm
not in the hot seat.
Speaker 7 (02:54):
You are, You're not.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
We're having a conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I want to have a we are having a conversation. Okay,
you could do you want to get read the conversation
from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight
Today's episode. Scott. Okay, we're rolling. So Scott, first of all,
(03:32):
thank you. Maybe the thing to do would go on
if you're lucky. The mistakes you make as you move
through life are small and harmless, calling your teacher mommy,
leaving gum in your jeans in the wash, or talking
over the person you're trying to talk to. No, no, sorry, sure,
hang on a second, Yeah, yeah, tell me more, Scott.
(03:57):
But the mistake Scott made wasn't the small kind. It
was the big kind. Big because it hurt his dad,
one of the people Scott loves most, and he's been
trying to fix that mistake for the past eight years.
For Scott, the story all begins when he was a kid,
which is when he first discovered drugs.
Speaker 8 (04:16):
The first one was weed, I know, that was when
I was thirteen, and then alcohol, and then it quickly
kind of descended from there. So I first did cocaine
when I was fourteen fifteen, first did meth when I
was about fifteen, and then it was around that same
time that I found opiates.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Scott's mom suffered from chronic pain and there were always
pills in her medicine cabinet, stuff like OxyContin and fentanyl.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
It is this feeling of like finding a missing piece
to a puzzle. All of the sudden, my anxiety was gone.
I didn't have as much self doubt, and I was
able to speak my mind and connect and talk and
approach girls. And at the time it really felt like
a cheat code that I would have for life.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And for a while it worked. Scott graduated high school,
then college, and found his way into a job as
a well paid graphic designer, but he was still using
drugs the way he always had to manage his anxiety
and make friends, like the friend who got him to
shoot heroin for the first time.
Speaker 8 (05:18):
And I say friend now by looking back on it,
we weren't necessarily friends at all. But he said, if
you can give me a ride to go pick up
some drugs, then I'll give you some for your trouble.
And so we're driving down I seventy. He's in shotgun.
I'm in the driver's seat with my arm extended out
over the middle part of the car as he shoots
(05:38):
me up for the first time, and I instantly passed
out and kind of swerved across three lanes before he
grabbed the wheel, and then I kind of came back
to a foot away from hitting a guard rail that
right there just threw gasoline onto the fire. It went
(06:01):
from you know, doing it on the weekends once or
twice a month, to doing it every weekend, to doing
it every few days to every other day.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Within a year, Scott lost his job and moved into
his dad's basement, back into his childhood home in Colorado.
He still needed to get high every day and now
had no money. There were boxes in the basement filled
with old jewelry and silverware, stuff that had belonged to
Scott's mom before she'd passed away, So Scott started stealing
stuff from the boxes to bring to a pawnshop down
(06:30):
the road. He figured an item or two wouldn't be missed,
but pretty soon it became a daily thing.
Speaker 8 (06:37):
All the while, the voice in the back of my
head was still there, knowing what was right and was wrong,
and so I felt immense guilt.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Soon the boxes were empty, and Scott began to eye
other things, things right out in the open, things that
belonged to his dad.
Speaker 8 (06:53):
So like a radio on the shelf, just right there
in the living room, taking that, and then a baseball
signed by the early thirties New York Yankees, you know,
Babe Ruth and Louke Eric and everything like that.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Did your dad know what was going on?
Speaker 8 (07:10):
I mean, my dad is a very unique person. He's
kind of like chronically petrified of direct conversations, you know.
I remember, even as a kid, he would have me
order the pizza, you know, when we were ordering a
pizza or something like that, because he didn't want to
talk to the person on the phone.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So Scott's dad never brought up the missing stuff until
Scott started taking money.
Speaker 8 (07:32):
I knew right where his checkbook was, you know, it
was right there on the secretary by the front door.
And I had a light table where I put down
a piece of paperwork that I'd found with his signature
on it, and then put the check over it and
kind of traced over it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
The checks were small, sixty dollars here and there, but
soon the account was thousands of dollars overdrawn, so his
dad had to make a decision. It was one thing
for a clock to go missing, another thing entirely for
his savings to disappear. So the man who couldn't bring
himself to pick up the phone to order pizza, picked
up the phone and reported his son to the police.
Speaker 8 (08:07):
So then they piled me into the back of the
police car and then brought me to the jail.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Were you scared at this point?
Speaker 8 (08:15):
I was petrified. I was petrified of the legal consequences
I had, but I think I was equally or more
petrified of the detox that I knew that was coming.
I remember scrawling out the hours I was sober on
a little jail house notepad that they give you, And
you know, I was doing three hundred dollars a day
of heroin at that point. So it was a really, really,
(08:36):
really bad withdraw There was just a series of horrible
days where I just couldn't stop crying. I would have
these kind of vivid dreams of seeing family or being happy,
and then wake up to realize I'm still in a
(08:56):
jail cell.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
A couple of weeks into his detention, a garbled voice
came over the loud speaker. Scott had a visitor.
Speaker 8 (09:04):
Nobody had visited me yet, and so I thought it
was a mistake at first. So I go up there
and there's my dad come to visit me.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
But Scott's father wasn't there to offer support. He was
there to present his son with a list of all
the things he'd stolen. The radios, the watch collection, the
family silver. It was two columns containing some fifty items,
and at the very top of the page.
Speaker 8 (09:31):
His most prized possession, the luger, this German pistol that
my grandfather had taken off of a German in World
War II. This gun was something that I knew was
like his pride and joy. That was like the quintessential
(09:51):
memento and the biggest piece that my dad had to
remember his dad by. And so that was the one
big thing that I had promised myself that I would
never take, and I took it.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Of all the things Scott had stolen from his dad,
of all the mistakes he'd made, this is the one
he regrets most.
Speaker 8 (10:19):
I've only seen my father cry when his dad passed away,
when my mom passed away, And in that jail when
he was telling me about him knowing about the gun
and being gone. You know, this was a piece of
his father that he thought he would be able to
(10:40):
hold on to for the rest of his life. And
I sold for fourteen hundred dollars worth of drugs.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
For four months, Scott sat in jail awaiting trial. When
he was finally sentenced, the judge decided to dismiss the
charges if Scott completed this two year treatment program that
was modeled on rehab programs from the seventies. Scott would
have to shave his head and scrub the floors with
a toothbrush, that kind of thing. The judge told Scott
that of the roughly three hundred people he'd sent there,
(11:09):
none had made it through.
Speaker 8 (11:11):
So that was encouraging right at the very beginning. But
I was like, get me in. Whatever I need to do,
I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
After two years, Scott walked out of the facility and
he's been clean since. He has a wife, two young kids,
and a job at a residential treatment facility in Colorado
where he works with addicts and their families. He's trying
to make up for who he used to be by
paying it forward, but there's one person he's never been
able to pay back.
Speaker 8 (11:42):
I have all but forgiven myself for a lot of
the things that I've done in the past, but this
is one thing that, no matter the amount of counseling,
it still bothers me on the deepest level that I
did this to my dad.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So about five years ago, Scott took his dad's list
of the stolen items and set off to recover the
luger along with everything else.
Speaker 8 (12:06):
So I went to the old antique stores that I
used to go to. I went to the old sports
memorabilia spot to see if I could track down the
baseball that I had sold.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
He succeeded in getting some things back, a Crossley antique radio,
a Ham radio, and that Christmas, with his sister, all
his aunts and uncles gathered round, Scott surprised his dad
with the items he'd recovered. Scott was feeling pretty proud
of himself until Uncle Bill piped up.
Speaker 8 (12:32):
And my uncle, you know, basically says, well, he's the luger.
In there is the luger, one of the things that
you were able to get back.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Uncle Bill was close with Scott's grandfather, like him, he'd
also served in the military. He believed the luger should
have been his to begin with, not a little brothers.
Speaker 8 (12:49):
And I was like, no, no, I wasn't able to
find that. And then that led to probably about a
ten minute spiel of his about how important that gun
was to him. And I remember the day when I
found out that that was stolen. It still bothers me
and and it was just like in the middle of
Christmas morning and were out presence, and every word that
(13:11):
he said just like, uugh, it felt like a kick
in the gut.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And how do you think it made your father feel.
Speaker 8 (13:19):
Very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, but he's not the
type of person that would toss it back in my face.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
You know.
Speaker 8 (13:27):
That's kind of my uncle's style, but not necessarily his.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Although Scott's dad didn't say anything, Scott understood that his
dad felt the same way as Uncle Bill, that it
was nice to have all those items returned, but the
only one he really cared about was the luger and
it was gone all because of Scott.
Speaker 8 (13:51):
I know that there's still trust issues there. I know
that there's still pain there, and I've told him over
the years that I'm going to do what I can
to try and get it back, And I know by
the glean in his eye that that would matter quite
a bit, and that if I am able to track
this down, it would be seismic.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
No matter what Scott accomplishes in life or how good
he feels, there's always that nagging voice that cries out,
what about the luger? Were you able to get that back?
Even when Scott is relaxing in front of the TV,
if anything about World War two comes on, he has
to change the channel. And so Scott's come to me.
He wants to find his grandfather's luger and has no
(14:34):
idea where to begin. My first thought is why me?
Why not the guys from Firearms Chat podcast, the Reloading Podcast,
Wasted Ammo podcast, Socialist Rifle Association Podcast, Concealed Carry Podcast,
New Shooter Canada or gun Girl Radio, the firearms show
(14:55):
for the Second Amendment. Woman, I'm more the wistful type
than the pistol type, more the pond type than the
gun type. Do you think we'll have to go to
a gun show?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
I think it just kind of depends on where it
ended up.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Like the thing that's a little scary, and maybe I'm
completely like out of line with thinking this, But is
it possible like that these guns can filter back into
like a kind of nether world of.
Speaker 8 (15:24):
Like Nazi sympathizer people.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Exactly like, yeah, it's possible. Yeah, I don't abide by
Nazi sympathizers, but I'm rapidly becoming a Skatzi sympathizer. As
Anton Chekhov once said, if a gun shows up in
the first act, it must be fired in the second
and that's a lot of presh. But as Jonathan Goldstein
(15:49):
once said, if a gun's to be fired at all,
please don't let it hit me in the wallet, because
that's where I keep the charge card I use for
purchasing quality products like the ones coming your way. Not
(16:10):
knowing where to start, I spend several hours on a
gun collector's discussion board run by someone named Jan with
an iron cross for an avatar. I introduce myself to
my fellow gun nuts and announce that I'm looking for
a gun. Right away, an Internet pop up pops up,
telling me that my content has been blocked and to
(16:31):
quote see administrator. Immediately after, the Gimblet Media HR department
confiscates my computer. I unholster my weapon of choice, the telephone.
I dial gun dealerships all over the country to seek advice.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
It's going to be almost impossible.
Speaker 9 (16:52):
There may not be any type of record because it.
Speaker 10 (16:54):
Could just be in some private collector's collection. It's gonna be.
Speaker 7 (16:57):
Hard for you.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I'm gonna tell you straight up.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Do you know when it was sold?
Speaker 8 (17:01):
Do you have any type of serial number?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Of course, a serial number. Scott doesn't know the serial number,
but he admits there's one person who.
Speaker 8 (17:11):
Might, Uncle Bill, my dad's older brother.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, mister Christmas Morning himself. Are you in touch with
your uncle?
Speaker 8 (17:22):
I am, I mean not a ton, but I am.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, So maybe he would. He would be a place
to start.
Speaker 8 (17:36):
Now, I'm uh, I mean, of course, there's a cloud
of anxiety. My chest starts tightening when I think about
actually doing it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Shortness of breath would come next, then burning in the
chestel region. It was sounding to this reporter like the
healing process had already begun.
Speaker 8 (18:00):
But maybe we could both do it. Yeah, we could
do a three person call.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So with me on the line as his emotional defibrillator,
Scott dials up Uncle Bill.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Good after that this is Bill.
Speaker 8 (18:17):
Hello, Uncle Bill, how are you.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I'm good, mister Goldstein.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah. Hi. After Scott and I jockey over who will
hide behind who's petty coats? Scott boldly peers out from
behind my petty coats and asks Uncle Bill about the
serial number.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I believe it had a fairly low serial number, but
unfortunately we never took a photo of the writing on
the inside of.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
The holster, so you don't have the serial number. I
do not. But the moment we bring up the gun,
it's Christmas Morning all over again.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
It's a piece of history of his history that was
part of what formed him to be the man that
I knew. And that's about all we have from him
from that era, and now we don't have that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
When Uncle Bill speaks to the gun, it's as though Scott,
the person responsible for its disappearance, isn't there, even when
he pipes up to defend himself.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
The gun disappeared to help beat his habit, and I
was really pissed at him.
Speaker 9 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I paid off every cent with his dad either.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
It wasn't like I was going to go and beat
him up or anything, but I was pissed that he
felt the need to quote keep it safe, and then
he didn't keep it safe.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Do you still feel like you fault your brother for that?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Somewhat?
Speaker 6 (19:59):
Now?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
The reality of World War two events is that they
didn't really like to talk about the war. We didn't
have PTSD as a doosis. The damage was usually doubtless
with alcohol, and he a lawful lot of them drank
too much, and that's how they self medicated.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
After the war, Scott's grandfather became an alcoholic. He spent
his days in an easy chair with a glass in
his hand, and in the evenings he kept a bottle
of whiskey on the nightstand to make sure he didn't
wake up in a withdrawal. Like the Luger, it seems
addiction has also been a part of Scott's family for decades.
(20:42):
Before getting off the phone, Uncle Bill does offer a
couple helpful bits of information. He tells us that the
Luger was a mouser and that returning World War II
soldiers were often issued something called bring back papers, documents
detailing any items they took home. If we could find
those papers, Bill says, there's a chance the gun's serial
(21:02):
number might be there. He also says that if anyone
has the bringback papers, it'd be Scott's older sister, Mary,
the family record keeper and also one of Scott's biggest supporters.
Speaker 8 (21:15):
She's a good person and an honest one.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
When Scott was in jail, Mary was the one who
visited most, gave him money for the commissary, and helped
him with his court case. When I explained the length
Scott's going through to get their dad's gun back, Mary
becomes emotional. The whole thing reminds her of a story
from when they were kids. Mary, Scott, and their dad
had gone out shopping.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
He accidentally still a bookmark from the store, just because
he thought we'd paid for it.
Speaker 10 (21:42):
And we hadn't, and he cried all the way home
and made us go all the way back to the
store almost an hour away, to return it.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Mary still sees her little brother as the same well
meaning kid who's trying to make things right. She's not
sure she has the bringback papers, but wants to help,
so over the weekend she digs through their grandfather's old stuff.
She finds wartime postcards, letters to their grandmother, photos of
their grandfather and his army buddies huddled in fox holes.
Speaker 10 (22:09):
And then she found the actual document the bringback papers.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Holy cow, Okay, so what and.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
By now it's pretty crazy?
Speaker 10 (22:19):
Yeah, but yellowing with it almost looks like it as
a coffee stains right through the metal. And then it
has just written in underneath it Luger pistol cerial number
four five nine.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Wow, Hi Giovanni, how are you, Johnson? I'm good. How
are you? I'm doing well, doing well. I get Giovanni's
number from another gun dealer who tells me that if
I'm looking for a World War two era luger, Giovanni
is my man. Giovanni owns one of Colorado's largest historical
(22:55):
firearm shops and is something of an expert in lugers,
and so armed with the serial number, I get ready
to make some headway. The serial number is four or
five nine.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Okay, No, you have any incomplete synumer.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Giovanni explains that lugers serial numbers have both numbers and letters,
so there could be a four five nine, A four
five nine B and so on. I re examined the
scan Scott sent me, but no letter. How many four
five nine serial number guns are there? Probably out there?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Lugers probably about.
Speaker 10 (23:39):
It could be one hundred.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Hoping to narrow the pool. I tell Giovanni it wasn't
just any luger, it was a mouser. Does that give
you an event? Okay? So in giving you that serial number,
it's not like you can look it up in a
database or anything.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh, absolutely no.
Speaker 7 (23:59):
No.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
What would you do if you were trying to track
down this gun?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I will give up.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Before hanging up, Giovanni says, there's one last thing we
could try, retracing the gun's path. Go back to the
pawnshop clerk to see if he has a record of
who he sold the gun to. Giovanni says, the clerk
has no obligation to reveal that information, but it's worth
a shot. The clerk's name is George, and he and
Scott were friendly back when Scott was living with his dad.
(24:38):
They're still connected on Facebook. So Scott messages asking if
George might be willing to talk to us, and George says.
Speaker 10 (24:46):
Yes, and then he calls me back a couple minutes later,
just in tears.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It turns out that when George bought the gun from
Scott eight years ago, he intended to keep it for
himself at the time, George and his wife were expecting
a baby.
Speaker 10 (25:02):
And about two weeks after I had sold him that gun,
he found out his wife had brain cancer.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
Oh my god, like really aggressive.
Speaker 10 (25:10):
Brain cancer, and she ended up having to go undergo
really aggressive radiation, and so because of that, they ended
up losing the baby.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Just months after buying the gun from Scott, George sold
it to pay for his wife's medical bills, and.
Speaker 10 (25:26):
Then she passed away a number of months after that.
And it just brings up these kind of horrible memories
that he's trying to avoid diving back into.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Each time the gun has changed hands, it seems it's
been in the midst of violence, desperation, and personal tragedy. Well,
George doesn't want to talk. He does remember the name
of the person he sold the gun to, the owner
of a rare coin and gold boullion shop, a man
(25:58):
named Klaus.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
I just keep my collecting interest private. You know, some
people think just because you buy Nazi guns that you
are na seen.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
When I first phone Klaus at his store, he's reluctant
to talk. He's nervous about being judged for his hobby.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I'm a collector, but you know, some people associated collecting
World War two German memorabilia with, you know, Nazism.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I reassure Klaus that that's not what I think, But
over the course of our phone call, I become less
sure of what I think.
Speaker 5 (26:31):
I have a Luger serial number seven. What makes it
so interesting that Hitler's party pen number was number seven,
so he was, you know, the party member number seven.
I have a number seven Luger.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
How did you acquire something like that?
Speaker 5 (26:55):
I have some things that are very, very unusual, you know,
I came I'm an immigrant.
Speaker 8 (27:03):
I came from Germany.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
My grandfather was a Nazi officer, and my father was
was in the youth.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I have many questions for Klaus. First and foremost, why
are you telling me Jonathan Goldstein about your familial ties
to the Nazis? But I'm not here to interrogate Klaus.
I'm here to find Scott's gun. So I try to
steer us back on track. I tell Klaus that I'm
calling on behalf of a man named Scott, whose grandfather
(27:37):
once owned a Mauser Luger that George sold to him
some years ago. Klaus tells me that's not possible. He
tells me he never bought a gun from George. He
doesn't even know who George is. And besides, he says
he's never owned a Mauser Luger. Maybe you're mistaken, I say,
all these guns kind of look alike, black, shiny, shooty.
(28:00):
Maybe you lost track of it, maybe it fell behind
the couch. Klaus tells me he'll look around, but he's
non committal, just trying to get me off the phone.
Then at eleven thirteen PM, I get a text, Hello Jonathan.
It reads call me at your convenience, and speaking of convenience,
(28:26):
no need to so much as move a muscle, because
I'm about to march right over there and dump a
truckload of savings directly onto your face. Discu Hey, this
(28:50):
is Jonathan Goldstein speaking. How are you well. I have
some news for you. I found the gun.
Speaker 11 (28:59):
What Yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
No, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
No?
Speaker 7 (29:05):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (29:07):
You found it?
Speaker 9 (29:09):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (29:10):
Wow, Yeah, I'm blown away.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
It's a matter of whether we'll be able to get it. Okay,
it's still in Klaus's possession.
Speaker 7 (29:26):
So did you talk to him?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I did, and uh, it was an interesting conversation. So
you found you found the gun.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
Yeah, you know, I was surprised last night. It took
a look and I went into my vault room and
I found it.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
The luger was still in the original holster. Attached to
it was a tag with Scott's grandfather's name. Would you
be open to, uh, the idea of selling it back
to him?
Speaker 5 (29:59):
Well, my first thought is probably not. It's just that
I legally purchased the gun. And I mean I'm a collector,
and you know I paid for it.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So I mean, would you would you say that his
grandfather paid for it with his service?
Speaker 5 (30:26):
I mean it's war bounty that someone brought over from Germany.
You know, he didn't pay for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
From Claus's perspective, the gun Scott stole was already stolen property.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
He took it off as a German officer. And you know,
as we spoke prior, my grandfather was an officer in
World War Two, and you know, my thoughts were chia,
you know, could that gun been his? At this point,
I'm not really compelled to let go of the gun,
(31:00):
but I still give it some thoughts.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
So the way that we left it was u He
said that he'd think about it.
Speaker 7 (31:11):
Okay, Well, I won't start celebrating yet, but we know
who has it, we know where it is, so now
it's just kind of tactfully figuring out what it's going
to take to get it back.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I really do respect your optimism. I don't think we're
going to get the gun back. Personally, I'm gonna try.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
We're going to get that gun.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Since Scott's not ready to admit defeat, I suggest he
tried making his case directly to Klaus in a letter,
So Scott writes from the heart. He explains the full
story of his addiction, his time in jail, and his
guilt about his dad. My greatest regret was that I
would never be able to get this heirloom back in
the hands of my father, Scott writes, But now, for
(32:03):
the first time, that seems like a possibility. Eight years ago,
I was so addicted to heroin that I was pretty
sure I was going to die. That fact has since
been replaced with another, more hope filled one second chances
are real. Klaus receives the letter but offers no response.
(32:26):
Two weeks go by and still we hear nothing, so
I send another email. Klaus's answer is short. I have
considered Scott's response, and I have decided to not sell
the gun at this time. If my position ever changes,
I will contact you.
Speaker 11 (32:42):
Klaus.
Speaker 7 (32:44):
That's just ridiculous.
Speaker 8 (32:46):
Settling on the fact that we know where it is
and not getting it back.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
That's just like super frustrating.
Speaker 7 (32:55):
I mean, there's got to be something we can do.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Scott says he's willing to pay whatever Klaus wants for
the gun. So again, I contact Klaus. It's not a
money issue. Klaus responds almost immediately, I'm just not interested
in selling a gun to an individual. I can't figure
out what exactly Klaus means by an individual. Maybe in
(33:19):
the past he sold guns to organizations or museums. When
I write him back, he responds with this, based on
the background information, I would not sell this gun back
to Scott. So it's not really an individual per se,
it's this individual. Scott's letter hadn't made Klaus feel sympathetic.
(33:40):
It made him feel nervous. Like with Scott's criminal past,
A gun and a second chance might not make for
a great combo. If there was any hope, it's now gone. Well,
I have an update update Okay. A couple days later,
I catch Scott at work. Yeah, I have another update.
(34:02):
Uh huh, it looks like Klaus is willing to sell
the gun.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Ah, you're kidding me.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
No, you were right. Oh, you were right to be hopeful.
I did not think that I was going to be
reporting this back to you.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
What brought it about? What changed his mind?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I'd asked Klaus the same question. It seemed as though
over the weekend you had a change of heart.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
I figured you were going to haunt me until I
finally get it back to the guy.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I probably would.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
I just thought, you know, it seems like the guy
really wanted that item back. So yeah, I just didn't
want to be haunted about it.
Speaker 7 (34:44):
So oh, I can't even believe it.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
But there was still one thing that Klaus hadn't changed
his mind about, And I feel bad having to tell Scott.
He is saying that he is willing to sell the gun,
but he won't sell it to you. Klaus doesn't trust Scott.
Bottom line, I mean, he doesn't know me.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
He doesn't know that it's become a contributing member of society.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
After everything Scott's done to redeem himself, the rehab, the
good works, Klaus's judgment stings, but Scott gets it. It's
something he's experienced before, people accusing him of theft when
things go missing, women breaking things off when they learn
he was once an addict. The world still sees Scott
as a bad bet, but he sweeps aside his feelings
(35:31):
to address the more pressing question, who can we get
to buy the gun? The first person that comes to
my mind is the person who's always believed in Scott most.
What about your sister?
Speaker 8 (35:43):
Yeah, absolutely, now, she would be totally open and willing
to do that.
Speaker 7 (35:48):
Oh, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Well, it looks like we're going to be buying a gun.
Speaker 8 (35:52):
Let's buy a gun.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's right, except we don't. After looking into Colorado's complicated
gun laws, we learn that because Mary's not a full
time Colorado resident, it's illegal for her to buy the gun,
so we discuss options. Scott's could buy it and give
it to his dad, but that's also illegal in Colorado.
(36:14):
Only blood relatives can gift each other guns. We consider
Uncle Bill totally legal, but Scott's worried he'd buy it
and then want to keep it for himself. Out of
viable family members, we consider getting a middleman to buy
the gun from Klaus, then sell it to Scott, who
can then give it to his dad. But as it
turns out, there's a term for this, a straw purchase,
(36:37):
and it's a federal felony. It's been nearly two weeks
of phone calls with Scott, with lawyers with the Colorado
Firearms Unit, and with each passing day, I become increasingly
nervous about Klaus changing his mind. So I present Scott
with what might be our last remaining option, his dad Win.
(37:02):
Scott falls silent for the first time in the course
of this quest. He seems defeated. Thought of placing his father, Win,
the man afraid of the crack voiced pizza boy, in
a room with Klaus, the man with the gun vault
and the luger that may or may not have belonged
to Adolf Hitler, makes him wonder if maybe it's all
just gone too far. But at this point it's the
(37:25):
only way to get the gun, so Scott agrees Win
will buy the luger. After the break, Win and Klaus.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Scott and his dad Win meet me on the way
to see Klaus. Mary's here too, She's come along for support.
Klaus told us to meet him at a gun shop.
He knows where they can run the necessary background check.
We all get into Scott's.
Speaker 9 (38:07):
Car, people with microphones and stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Scott's dad, Win is seated up front. He's brought along
the luger's empty case, which sits on his lap. When
is bride eyed and smiley, but knowing from Scott how
shy and nervous his dad can be, gives his jolliness
a slightly forced quality. A road work case in point,
when our eta gets pushed back due to roadwork, Win
(38:34):
bursts into song, Oh work here? Or this is when
as Scott tells us about his day's pretty dark day,
when is the one giggling in the background.
Speaker 8 (38:48):
Four people into detox programs this morning, So a lot
of distraught parents and overdosing teenagers to deal with this morning.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
The destination is on your land.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Maybe you can even pull in. Oh what is a
private party? We pull into a parking lot and we
all get out of the car, all except for Scott.
After the way Klaus responded to his letter, He's afraid
if he goes in he'll blow the whole deal.
Speaker 9 (39:19):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 11 (39:20):
Cool, well, have fun.
Speaker 9 (39:24):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
From behind the windshield, Scott watches as his father ambles
towards the gun shop, empty gun case in his hand.
I can imagine how Scott's feeling. Scott already believes he's
failed his dad in so many ways, Sending him to
buy back his own gun in a rundown looking gun
shop with bars on the windows must feel like one
(39:48):
more failing. Let's buy ourselves a gun. Time to buy
a gun. At the door, a large man wearing sunglasses
and a holstered gun silently greets us wind Ducks. Inside
(40:09):
walls and shelves of the gun shop are full of
Nazi metals, Nazi helmets, Nazi hats, belts, uniforms, guns, and
Swastika armbands. And at the center of it all is Klaus,
who is at present chummily talking to a large tattooed
clerk with a white goatee. They quiet down when Win,
(40:29):
Mary and I approach. Klaus appears to be in his sixties.
He's a slight man with thinning, slick back hair. Winn
walks over, smiling nervously as Klaus turns to greet him,
and then the grandson of a Nazi officer shakes hands
with the son of an American soldier. As Mary and
(40:54):
Klaus introduce themselves, I adjust the levels on my recorder.
The goateed man has a look about him that says
I don't listen to podcasts just the same. I take
a deep breath, scoop my testes out of my MPR
tote bag, and, in my best vocal approximation of Ira Glass,
demand my journalistic rights. Uh. And would it be okay
(41:20):
if we were to be recording for the thing they
we're doing in the background?
Speaker 5 (41:25):
Absolutely not okay, Absolutely no.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Cut it. The luger sits on a glass display counter.
Winn walks over. That's it, he says, his father took
it off of my grandfather. Klaus jokes to the goateed
man the gun is pristine. Mary and I take turns
holding it. It's heavier than we expect. Win hands a
(41:49):
driver's license over for the background check. While we wait,
there's an awkward silence. I consider asking if anyone seen
Mama Mia too. Here we go again, and if so,
whether they thought the closing super Trooper number at the
Hotel Belladonna was a bit much. But before I can
clear my throat of anxiety, mucus, the background check is complete.
(42:13):
After all the hoopla. It took all of ten minutes.
Wind gives Klaus the money, and Klaus gives Win the gun.
For perhaps the first time ever, the luger changes hands
without incident. Klaus watches as Winn carefully places the gun
back into its case. Don't let it get out of
(42:33):
the family anymore, he says, as the goated man watches
us Wind our way to the exit. On the ride back,
everyone is quiet. I imagine Scott is feeling relief, Mary
Pride and her brother, but watching Win in the front seat,
(42:54):
staring out the window, gun case at his feet, it's
hard to say what he's feeling.
Speaker 8 (43:04):
God, this is crazy to see.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
At Mary's apartment, we all have around the dining room table,
Scott's grandfather's gun has been placed at the center. Scott
and Mary marvel at it, but I'm amazed at the
tag is still on it. Yeah, and it has a number.
Speaker 8 (43:20):
Four or five nine. Look at that.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
This is crazy.
Speaker 8 (43:26):
You understand how crazy this is.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
If Winn does understand how crazy it is, it's hard
to tell. There's something muted about his response. In fact,
since we've entered the apartment, Wind hasn't seemed interested in
his father's gun at all. When Scott asks him if
he'd like to hold it, he declines, well, Scott and
Mary passed their grandfather's gun between them. Winn sits silently.
(43:52):
I tried to draw him out. Did you put any
hopes in ever getting that gun back?
Speaker 9 (43:58):
I thought it was unfortunate that this appeared, but I
pusn't saying darn. I wish I could find that gun.
It's just a material of object.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
No one is sure what to say. Sure, it's a
material object, but it's a material object that carries great meaning.
It's a material object that connects him to his dad.
Speaker 9 (44:30):
I was not as close to my dad as I
would like to have been, the guy with a glass
of Scotch whiskey in his hands, sitting in the easy chair,
tossing out criticisms as needed. The way you grow a
better son is to criticize.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Him for the first time all day when isn't cracking
a silly joke or smiling.
Speaker 9 (44:52):
My main memory of my dad was being afraid of him. Remember,
one of my early memories is that I'd somehow succeeded
in getting a bruised bone on my shin, and I
was like three years old, and my mother was sufficient
concerned that she took me to the doctor and had
an X rayed, and it was, oh, how in the
(45:14):
world did little teddy that was me then get a
bruise on his bone? And I think what it is
is that I think I got kicked by a guy
wearing size twelve wingtips.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Scott's never heard this story before, and it seems almost
like he doesn't want to believe it.
Speaker 8 (45:34):
Were there good parts about your relationship with him, if
you had to name, if.
Speaker 9 (45:39):
I had to name, hmmm, I don't know. He was
just kind of scary all the time.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
Wynn explains that his relationship with his father wasn't the
same as Bill's relationship with their father.
Speaker 9 (45:56):
I think I felt criticized mostly for not being as
good as my brother. He always did well in school,
and I wasn't always so wondrous, and I always saw
myself as a little more plump and a little less at.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
The Bill was always the louder voice in the room.
So that Christmas, when Bill lectured Scott about the significance
of the luger, Scott had assumed Bill was speaking for
his dad too, But he wasn't.
Speaker 8 (46:24):
I saw it as this treasured possession that linked to
you to the good parts of Grandpa. But your relationship
with him is complicated and different than I even knew.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Scott was right in believing that the gun was a
reminder of Win's father, and that it carried a lot
of meaning for Win. He just misunderstood the nature of
that meaning. To know that Scott had been thinking about
(46:56):
it all these years, even maybe past year, having thought
about it, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 9 (47:05):
It makes me feel loved that he would make it
a part of his life to try to track it down.
It feels like maybe I was at least partially successful
in not being like my dad. Yeah, that I was
somebody he could run over to and climb up in
the lap of when he was little and stick his
fingers up my nose. He used to like to do that.
(47:27):
I could never stick my fingers up my dad's nose.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Wynn looks over at his son.
Speaker 9 (47:39):
Don't let it bother you anymore. The greatest prize that
I got out of this whole thing was the fact that,
even though all this crap disappeared, I got to get
my boy back. The funeral plot that I had bought
for myself to be next to your mom. I thought
I was going to have to bury my sons in it,
and I am delighted that I never had to do that.
(48:03):
That's ever so much better.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Maybe eight years ago, during Wind's visit to Scott in jail,
it wasn't the missing gun that had made him cry.
It was missing his son. But now the gun tells
a different story.
Speaker 9 (48:22):
The gun has grown, so it's not just my dad anymore.
It has a whole story to tell about my son.
And it's back returned by this guy here. Thank you
for doing all that.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Of course, a few weeks later, I get this text
from Scott the other night. It reads, I stumbled upon
a World War II documentary and for the first time
(49:04):
in eight years, Scott didn't changed the channel.
Speaker 6 (49:46):
Now that the fern ures raft turned into its goodwill home,
Now that the last month's raft is stealing with the
damaged pos.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Take this moment to dissolve.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
If we mess him, if we talk.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
The things that accident. Hey Scott, Scott, I'm good.
Speaker 10 (50:25):
How are you?
Speaker 9 (50:26):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Good and good. This is kind of suiting that we're
out of sync. This is exactly what happened during our
first interview. Do you remember I remember that is suiting. Yeah,
I just wanted to catch up with you and see
what's changed.
Speaker 11 (50:45):
I mean, the biggest changes is my my dad passing away.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
I'm so sorry to hear this.
Speaker 7 (50:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 11 (50:52):
I mean, it's it was truly in his style of
how he let us know that he had lever cancer
was a group text message and the words were, I
have terminal cancer and there's nothing that they say it
can do. Very sad news. Oh no, kind of a thing.
(51:16):
And that was in alignment with his wanting to avoid
talking over the phone.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah. He wouldn't even talk with the pizza delivery guy.
Speaker 11 (51:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (51:25):
And and so then it was, yeah, it was.
Speaker 11 (51:28):
It was about a year, a little little over a
year from what he sent out that mass text that
he passed away.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Do you think that returning the luger changed your relationship
with your dad in his last years.
Speaker 11 (51:45):
Our relationship opened up on a much deeper level after this,
And I mean that's the full circle part.
Speaker 12 (51:53):
Of it is you go back to, you know, those
early days, my dad changing the locks on his house.
So you go from that fear of me to cut
to fifteen years later, I was the only person with
a key to his house. I was the one that
was at his bedside all throughout him declining through this disease,
(52:17):
and then I was the executor of his estate, Like
I'm the one combing through and looking through all of
these things to figure out what sentimental belongings to hold
on to and what to let go of.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Where is the gun now?
Speaker 11 (52:32):
After my dad was diagnosed, he had offered the gun
to me, Oh, and he said, I would like you
to have this just because of all of the work
and everything you did to get it back, But it
meant so much more to my uncle, you know.
Speaker 8 (52:49):
Yeah, so it's actually uncle Bill who has the gun now.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Scott, thank you so much for talking.
Speaker 11 (52:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Absolutely, Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together.
We'll be back next week with another Encore presentation and
along with it, another update from our guest
Pushkin Stevie Lay and I'd like to welcome you into
the studio. Thanks for being here. Oh, I'm recording. I
hope you know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Oh, thank you for telling me.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Okay, so I have your verbal consent.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yes, I'm opting in.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Okay, so I'm recording.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm also recording.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I don't remember being asked for my consent.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Jonathan, can I record?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You may, Thank you, Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
So we're gonna be re listening to an encore presentation
of an episode that we did or that you know
you produced six years ago about a man named Scott. Yes,
and here's a little glimpse behind the curtain. There's a
lot of investigation. Yes, that takes place, and you're captain
(01:04):
of the heavyweight investigative Bureau.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I love attending that my job is a PI.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, it's kind of. I mean, it's like it is.
That's what I did a lot of research I did.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
I will say that this is an episode that genuinely
at every turn we were surprised by what happened.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, and that was.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Really I feel like that was like really fun while
making it. Yeah, but like I do feel that that
translates into the story in a really amazing way.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, and at the very end, I'm going to catch
up with Scott. We're going to find out where in
his life he is all these years later.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So I guess should should we play it for the people.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Without a do or a don't? Let's sit back, pop
the foot, rest on your bark a lounger and enjoy.
But oh, sorry, did I scare you?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
No?
Speaker 5 (01:57):
No?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Okay, well I just wanted to. Sorry I got excited.
But first a word from our sponsors. Let's play truth
or dare? Okay, go ahead, No, Jackie, you cut out.
You cut out. I couldn't hear if you said truth
(02:18):
or dare? Which one did you say?
Speaker 6 (02:20):
No?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
I'm not willing, I'm not interested. I don't want to play.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Have you ever have you ever peed in a shower?
Tell the truth? Have you ever peed in a shower? Jackie.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's just not a question, John, is it?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Because the answer is yes?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Affirmative?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay? Have you ever peed in a bathtub?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Negative?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
You've never peed in a bathtub.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
That's disgusting. Why would you peel on yourself?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I'm not saying that I did you did?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
You just said no?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I didn't? Okay, Okay, you you were surprised because I'm
not in the hot seat.
Speaker 7 (02:54):
You are, You're not.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
We're having a conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I want to have a we are having a conversation. Okay,
you could do you want to get read the conversation
from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight
Today's episode. Scott. Okay, we're rolling. So Scott, first of all,
(03:32):
thank you. Maybe the thing to do would go on
if you're lucky. The mistakes you make as you move
through life are small and harmless, calling your teacher mommy,
leaving gum in your jeans in the wash, or talking
over the person you're trying to talk to. No, no, sorry, sure,
hang on a second, Yeah, yeah, tell me more, Scott.
(03:57):
But the mistake Scott made wasn't the small kind. It
was the big kind. Big because it hurt his dad,
one of the people Scott loves most, and he's been
trying to fix that mistake for the past eight years.
For Scott, the story all begins when he was a kid,
which is when he first discovered drugs.
Speaker 8 (04:16):
The first one was weed, I know, that was when
I was thirteen, and then alcohol, and then it quickly
kind of descended from there. So I first did cocaine
when I was fourteen fifteen, first did meth when I
was about fifteen, and then it was around that same
time that I found opiates.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Scott's mom suffered from chronic pain and there were always
pills in her medicine cabinet, stuff like OxyContin and fentanyl.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
It is this feeling of like finding a missing piece
to a puzzle. All of the sudden, my anxiety was gone.
I didn't have as much self doubt, and I was
able to speak my mind and connect and talk and
approach girls. And at the time it really felt like
a cheat code that I would have for life.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And for a while it worked. Scott graduated high school,
then college, and found his way into a job as
a well paid graphic designer, but he was still using
drugs the way he always had to manage his anxiety
and make friends, like the friend who got him to
shoot heroin for the first time.
Speaker 8 (05:18):
And I say friend now by looking back on it,
we weren't necessarily friends at all. But he said, if
you can give me a ride to go pick up
some drugs, then I'll give you some for your trouble.
And so we're driving down I seventy. He's in shotgun.
I'm in the driver's seat with my arm extended out
over the middle part of the car as he shoots
(05:38):
me up for the first time, and I instantly passed
out and kind of swerved across three lanes before he
grabbed the wheel, and then I kind of came back
to a foot away from hitting a guard rail that
right there just threw gasoline onto the fire. It went
(06:01):
from you know, doing it on the weekends once or
twice a month, to doing it every weekend, to doing
it every few days to every other day.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Within a year, Scott lost his job and moved into
his dad's basement, back into his childhood home in Colorado.
He still needed to get high every day and now
had no money. There were boxes in the basement filled
with old jewelry and silverware, stuff that had belonged to
Scott's mom before she'd passed away, So Scott started stealing
stuff from the boxes to bring to a pawnshop down
(06:30):
the road. He figured an item or two wouldn't be missed,
but pretty soon it became a daily thing.
Speaker 8 (06:37):
All the while, the voice in the back of my
head was still there, knowing what was right and was wrong,
and so I felt immense guilt.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Soon the boxes were empty, and Scott began to eye
other things, things right out in the open, things that
belonged to his dad.
Speaker 8 (06:53):
So like a radio on the shelf, just right there
in the living room, taking that, and then a baseball
signed by the early thirties New York Yankees, you know,
Babe Ruth and Louke Eric and everything like that.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Did your dad know what was going on?
Speaker 8 (07:10):
I mean, my dad is a very unique person. He's
kind of like chronically petrified of direct conversations, you know.
I remember, even as a kid, he would have me
order the pizza, you know, when we were ordering a
pizza or something like that, because he didn't want to
talk to the person on the phone.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So Scott's dad never brought up the missing stuff until
Scott started taking money.
Speaker 8 (07:32):
I knew right where his checkbook was, you know, it
was right there on the secretary by the front door.
And I had a light table where I put down
a piece of paperwork that I'd found with his signature
on it, and then put the check over it and
kind of traced over it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
The checks were small, sixty dollars here and there, but
soon the account was thousands of dollars overdrawn, so his
dad had to make a decision. It was one thing
for a clock to go missing, another thing entirely for
his savings to disappear. So the man who couldn't bring
himself to pick up the phone to order pizza, picked
up the phone and reported his son to the police.
Speaker 8 (08:07):
So then they piled me into the back of the
police car and then brought me to the jail.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Were you scared at this point?
Speaker 8 (08:15):
I was petrified. I was petrified of the legal consequences
I had, but I think I was equally or more
petrified of the detox that I knew that was coming.
I remember scrawling out the hours I was sober on
a little jail house notepad that they give you, And
you know, I was doing three hundred dollars a day
of heroin at that point. So it was a really, really,
(08:36):
really bad withdraw There was just a series of horrible
days where I just couldn't stop crying. I would have
these kind of vivid dreams of seeing family or being happy,
and then wake up to realize I'm still in a
(08:56):
jail cell.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
A couple of weeks into his detention, a garbled voice
came over the loud speaker. Scott had a visitor.
Speaker 8 (09:04):
Nobody had visited me yet, and so I thought it
was a mistake at first. So I go up there
and there's my dad come to visit me.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
But Scott's father wasn't there to offer support. He was
there to present his son with a list of all
the things he'd stolen. The radios, the watch collection, the
family silver. It was two columns containing some fifty items,
and at the very top of the page.
Speaker 8 (09:31):
His most prized possession, the luger, this German pistol that
my grandfather had taken off of a German in World
War II. This gun was something that I knew was
like his pride and joy. That was like the quintessential
(09:51):
memento and the biggest piece that my dad had to
remember his dad by. And so that was the one
big thing that I had promised myself that I would
never take, and I took it.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Of all the things Scott had stolen from his dad,
of all the mistakes he'd made, this is the one
he regrets most.
Speaker 8 (10:19):
I've only seen my father cry when his dad passed away,
when my mom passed away, And in that jail when
he was telling me about him knowing about the gun
and being gone. You know, this was a piece of
his father that he thought he would be able to
(10:40):
hold on to for the rest of his life. And
I sold for fourteen hundred dollars worth of drugs.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
For four months, Scott sat in jail awaiting trial. When
he was finally sentenced, the judge decided to dismiss the
charges if Scott completed this two year treatment program that
was modeled on rehab programs from the seventies. Scott would
have to shave his head and scrub the floors with
a toothbrush, that kind of thing. The judge told Scott
that of the roughly three hundred people he'd sent there,
(11:09):
none had made it through.
Speaker 8 (11:11):
So that was encouraging right at the very beginning. But
I was like, get me in. Whatever I need to do,
I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
After two years, Scott walked out of the facility and
he's been clean since. He has a wife, two young kids,
and a job at a residential treatment facility in Colorado
where he works with addicts and their families. He's trying
to make up for who he used to be by
paying it forward, but there's one person he's never been
able to pay back.
Speaker 8 (11:42):
I have all but forgiven myself for a lot of
the things that I've done in the past, but this
is one thing that, no matter the amount of counseling,
it still bothers me on the deepest level that I
did this to my dad.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So about five years ago, Scott took his dad's list
of the stolen items and set off to recover the
luger along with everything else.
Speaker 8 (12:06):
So I went to the old antique stores that I
used to go to. I went to the old sports
memorabilia spot to see if I could track down the
baseball that I had sold.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
He succeeded in getting some things back, a Crossley antique radio,
a Ham radio, and that Christmas, with his sister, all
his aunts and uncles gathered round, Scott surprised his dad
with the items he'd recovered. Scott was feeling pretty proud
of himself until Uncle Bill piped up.
Speaker 8 (12:32):
And my uncle, you know, basically says, well, he's the luger.
In there is the luger, one of the things that
you were able to get back.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Uncle Bill was close with Scott's grandfather, like him, he'd
also served in the military. He believed the luger should
have been his to begin with, not a little brothers.
Speaker 8 (12:49):
And I was like, no, no, I wasn't able to
find that. And then that led to probably about a
ten minute spiel of his about how important that gun
was to him. And I remember the day when I
found out that that was stolen. It still bothers me
and and it was just like in the middle of
Christmas morning and were out presence, and every word that
(13:11):
he said just like, uugh, it felt like a kick
in the gut.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And how do you think it made your father feel.
Speaker 8 (13:19):
Very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, but he's not the
type of person that would toss it back in my face.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
You know.
Speaker 8 (13:27):
That's kind of my uncle's style, but not necessarily his.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Although Scott's dad didn't say anything, Scott understood that his
dad felt the same way as Uncle Bill, that it
was nice to have all those items returned, but the
only one he really cared about was the luger and
it was gone all because of Scott.
Speaker 8 (13:51):
I know that there's still trust issues there. I know
that there's still pain there, and I've told him over
the years that I'm going to do what I can
to try and get it back, And I know by
the glean in his eye that that would matter quite
a bit, and that if I am able to track
this down, it would be seismic.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
No matter what Scott accomplishes in life or how good
he feels, there's always that nagging voice that cries out,
what about the luger? Were you able to get that back?
Even when Scott is relaxing in front of the TV,
if anything about World War two comes on, he has
to change the channel. And so Scott's come to me.
He wants to find his grandfather's luger and has no
(14:34):
idea where to begin. My first thought is why me?
Why not the guys from Firearms Chat podcast, the Reloading Podcast,
Wasted Ammo podcast, Socialist Rifle Association Podcast, Concealed Carry Podcast,
New Shooter Canada or gun Girl Radio, the firearms show
(14:55):
for the Second Amendment. Woman, I'm more the wistful type
than the pistol type, more the pond type than the
gun type. Do you think we'll have to go to
a gun show?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
I think it just kind of depends on where it
ended up.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Like the thing that's a little scary, and maybe I'm
completely like out of line with thinking this, But is
it possible like that these guns can filter back into
like a kind of nether world of.
Speaker 8 (15:24):
Like Nazi sympathizer people.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Exactly like, yeah, it's possible. Yeah, I don't abide by
Nazi sympathizers, but I'm rapidly becoming a Skatzi sympathizer. As
Anton Chekhov once said, if a gun shows up in
the first act, it must be fired in the second
and that's a lot of presh. But as Jonathan Goldstein
(15:49):
once said, if a gun's to be fired at all,
please don't let it hit me in the wallet, because
that's where I keep the charge card I use for
purchasing quality products like the ones coming your way. Not
(16:10):
knowing where to start, I spend several hours on a
gun collector's discussion board run by someone named Jan with
an iron cross for an avatar. I introduce myself to
my fellow gun nuts and announce that I'm looking for
a gun. Right away, an Internet pop up pops up,
telling me that my content has been blocked and to
(16:31):
quote see administrator. Immediately after, the Gimblet Media HR department
confiscates my computer. I unholster my weapon of choice, the telephone.
I dial gun dealerships all over the country to seek advice.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
It's going to be almost impossible.
Speaker 9 (16:52):
There may not be any type of record because it.
Speaker 10 (16:54):
Could just be in some private collector's collection. It's gonna be.
Speaker 7 (16:57):
Hard for you.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I'm gonna tell you straight up.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Do you know when it was sold?
Speaker 8 (17:01):
Do you have any type of serial number?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Of course, a serial number. Scott doesn't know the serial number,
but he admits there's one person who.
Speaker 8 (17:11):
Might, Uncle Bill, my dad's older brother.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, mister Christmas Morning himself. Are you in touch with
your uncle?
Speaker 8 (17:22):
I am, I mean not a ton, but I am.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, So maybe he would. He would be a place
to start.
Speaker 8 (17:36):
Now, I'm uh, I mean, of course, there's a cloud
of anxiety. My chest starts tightening when I think about
actually doing it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Shortness of breath would come next, then burning in the
chestel region. It was sounding to this reporter like the
healing process had already begun.
Speaker 8 (18:00):
But maybe we could both do it. Yeah, we could
do a three person call.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So with me on the line as his emotional defibrillator,
Scott dials up Uncle Bill.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Good after that this is Bill.
Speaker 8 (18:17):
Hello, Uncle Bill, how are you.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I'm good, mister Goldstein.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah. Hi. After Scott and I jockey over who will
hide behind who's petty coats? Scott boldly peers out from
behind my petty coats and asks Uncle Bill about the
serial number.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I believe it had a fairly low serial number, but
unfortunately we never took a photo of the writing on
the inside of.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
The holster, so you don't have the serial number. I
do not. But the moment we bring up the gun,
it's Christmas Morning all over again.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
It's a piece of history of his history that was
part of what formed him to be the man that
I knew. And that's about all we have from him
from that era, and now we don't have that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
When Uncle Bill speaks to the gun, it's as though Scott,
the person responsible for its disappearance, isn't there, even when
he pipes up to defend himself.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
The gun disappeared to help beat his habit, and I
was really pissed at him.
Speaker 9 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I paid off every cent with his dad either.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
It wasn't like I was going to go and beat
him up or anything, but I was pissed that he
felt the need to quote keep it safe, and then
he didn't keep it safe.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Do you still feel like you fault your brother for that?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Somewhat?
Speaker 6 (19:59):
Now?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
The reality of World War two events is that they
didn't really like to talk about the war. We didn't
have PTSD as a doosis. The damage was usually doubtless
with alcohol, and he a lawful lot of them drank
too much, and that's how they self medicated.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
After the war, Scott's grandfather became an alcoholic. He spent
his days in an easy chair with a glass in
his hand, and in the evenings he kept a bottle
of whiskey on the nightstand to make sure he didn't
wake up in a withdrawal. Like the Luger, it seems
addiction has also been a part of Scott's family for decades.
(20:42):
Before getting off the phone, Uncle Bill does offer a
couple helpful bits of information. He tells us that the
Luger was a mouser and that returning World War II
soldiers were often issued something called bring back papers, documents
detailing any items they took home. If we could find
those papers, Bill says, there's a chance the gun's serial
(21:02):
number might be there. He also says that if anyone
has the bringback papers, it'd be Scott's older sister, Mary,
the family record keeper and also one of Scott's biggest supporters.
Speaker 8 (21:15):
She's a good person and an honest one.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
When Scott was in jail, Mary was the one who
visited most, gave him money for the commissary, and helped
him with his court case. When I explained the length
Scott's going through to get their dad's gun back, Mary
becomes emotional. The whole thing reminds her of a story
from when they were kids. Mary, Scott, and their dad
had gone out shopping.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
He accidentally still a bookmark from the store, just because
he thought we'd paid for it.
Speaker 10 (21:42):
And we hadn't, and he cried all the way home
and made us go all the way back to the
store almost an hour away, to return it.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Mary still sees her little brother as the same well
meaning kid who's trying to make things right. She's not
sure she has the bringback papers, but wants to help,
so over the weekend she digs through their grandfather's old stuff.
She finds wartime postcards, letters to their grandmother, photos of
their grandfather and his army buddies huddled in fox holes.
Speaker 10 (22:09):
And then she found the actual document the bringback papers.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Holy cow, Okay, so what and.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
By now it's pretty crazy?
Speaker 10 (22:19):
Yeah, but yellowing with it almost looks like it as
a coffee stains right through the metal. And then it
has just written in underneath it Luger pistol cerial number
four five nine.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Wow, Hi Giovanni, how are you, Johnson? I'm good. How
are you? I'm doing well, doing well. I get Giovanni's
number from another gun dealer who tells me that if
I'm looking for a World War two era luger, Giovanni
is my man. Giovanni owns one of Colorado's largest historical
(22:55):
firearm shops and is something of an expert in lugers,
and so armed with the serial number, I get ready
to make some headway. The serial number is four or
five nine.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Okay, No, you have any incomplete synumer.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Giovanni explains that lugers serial numbers have both numbers and letters,
so there could be a four five nine, A four
five nine B and so on. I re examined the
scan Scott sent me, but no letter. How many four
five nine serial number guns are there? Probably out there?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Lugers probably about.
Speaker 10 (23:39):
It could be one hundred.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Hoping to narrow the pool. I tell Giovanni it wasn't
just any luger, it was a mouser. Does that give
you an event? Okay? So in giving you that serial number,
it's not like you can look it up in a
database or anything.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh, absolutely no.
Speaker 7 (23:59):
No.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
What would you do if you were trying to track
down this gun?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I will give up.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Before hanging up, Giovanni says, there's one last thing we
could try, retracing the gun's path. Go back to the
pawnshop clerk to see if he has a record of
who he sold the gun to. Giovanni says, the clerk
has no obligation to reveal that information, but it's worth
a shot. The clerk's name is George, and he and
Scott were friendly back when Scott was living with his dad.
(24:38):
They're still connected on Facebook. So Scott messages asking if
George might be willing to talk to us, and George says.
Speaker 10 (24:46):
Yes, and then he calls me back a couple minutes later,
just in tears.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It turns out that when George bought the gun from
Scott eight years ago, he intended to keep it for
himself at the time, George and his wife were expecting
a baby.
Speaker 10 (25:02):
And about two weeks after I had sold him that gun,
he found out his wife had brain cancer.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
Oh my god, like really aggressive.
Speaker 10 (25:10):
Brain cancer, and she ended up having to go undergo
really aggressive radiation, and so because of that, they ended
up losing the baby.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Just months after buying the gun from Scott, George sold
it to pay for his wife's medical bills, and.
Speaker 10 (25:26):
Then she passed away a number of months after that.
And it just brings up these kind of horrible memories
that he's trying to avoid diving back into.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Each time the gun has changed hands, it seems it's
been in the midst of violence, desperation, and personal tragedy. Well,
George doesn't want to talk. He does remember the name
of the person he sold the gun to, the owner
of a rare coin and gold boullion shop, a man
(25:58):
named Klaus.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
I just keep my collecting interest private. You know, some
people think just because you buy Nazi guns that you
are na seen.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
When I first phone Klaus at his store, he's reluctant
to talk. He's nervous about being judged for his hobby.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I'm a collector, but you know, some people associated collecting
World War two German memorabilia with, you know, Nazism.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I reassure Klaus that that's not what I think, But
over the course of our phone call, I become less
sure of what I think.
Speaker 5 (26:31):
I have a Luger serial number seven. What makes it
so interesting that Hitler's party pen number was number seven,
so he was, you know, the party member number seven.
I have a number seven Luger.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
How did you acquire something like that?
Speaker 5 (26:55):
I have some things that are very, very unusual, you know,
I came I'm an immigrant.
Speaker 8 (27:03):
I came from Germany.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
My grandfather was a Nazi officer, and my father was
was in the youth.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I have many questions for Klaus. First and foremost, why
are you telling me Jonathan Goldstein about your familial ties
to the Nazis? But I'm not here to interrogate Klaus.
I'm here to find Scott's gun. So I try to
steer us back on track. I tell Klaus that I'm
calling on behalf of a man named Scott, whose grandfather
(27:37):
once owned a Mauser Luger that George sold to him
some years ago. Klaus tells me that's not possible. He
tells me he never bought a gun from George. He
doesn't even know who George is. And besides, he says
he's never owned a Mauser Luger. Maybe you're mistaken, I say,
all these guns kind of look alike, black, shiny, shooty.
(28:00):
Maybe you lost track of it, maybe it fell behind
the couch. Klaus tells me he'll look around, but he's
non committal, just trying to get me off the phone.
Then at eleven thirteen PM, I get a text, Hello Jonathan.
It reads call me at your convenience, and speaking of convenience,
(28:26):
no need to so much as move a muscle, because
I'm about to march right over there and dump a
truckload of savings directly onto your face. Discu Hey, this
(28:50):
is Jonathan Goldstein speaking. How are you well. I have
some news for you. I found the gun.
Speaker 11 (28:59):
What Yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
No, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
No?
Speaker 7 (29:05):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (29:07):
You found it?
Speaker 9 (29:09):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (29:10):
Wow, Yeah, I'm blown away.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
It's a matter of whether we'll be able to get it. Okay,
it's still in Klaus's possession.
Speaker 7 (29:26):
So did you talk to him?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I did, and uh, it was an interesting conversation. So
you found you found the gun.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
Yeah, you know, I was surprised last night. It took
a look and I went into my vault room and
I found it.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
The luger was still in the original holster. Attached to
it was a tag with Scott's grandfather's name. Would you
be open to, uh, the idea of selling it back
to him?
Speaker 5 (29:59):
Well, my first thought is probably not. It's just that
I legally purchased the gun. And I mean I'm a collector,
and you know I paid for it.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So I mean, would you would you say that his
grandfather paid for it with his service?
Speaker 5 (30:26):
I mean it's war bounty that someone brought over from Germany.
You know, he didn't pay for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
From Claus's perspective, the gun Scott stole was already stolen property.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
He took it off as a German officer. And you know,
as we spoke prior, my grandfather was an officer in
World War Two, and you know, my thoughts were chia,
you know, could that gun been his? At this point,
I'm not really compelled to let go of the gun,
(31:00):
but I still give it some thoughts.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
So the way that we left it was u He
said that he'd think about it.
Speaker 7 (31:11):
Okay, Well, I won't start celebrating yet, but we know
who has it, we know where it is, so now
it's just kind of tactfully figuring out what it's going
to take to get it back.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I really do respect your optimism. I don't think we're
going to get the gun back. Personally, I'm gonna try.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
We're going to get that gun.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Since Scott's not ready to admit defeat, I suggest he
tried making his case directly to Klaus in a letter,
So Scott writes from the heart. He explains the full
story of his addiction, his time in jail, and his
guilt about his dad. My greatest regret was that I
would never be able to get this heirloom back in
the hands of my father, Scott writes, But now, for
(32:03):
the first time, that seems like a possibility. Eight years ago,
I was so addicted to heroin that I was pretty
sure I was going to die. That fact has since
been replaced with another, more hope filled one second chances
are real. Klaus receives the letter but offers no response.
(32:26):
Two weeks go by and still we hear nothing, so
I send another email. Klaus's answer is short. I have
considered Scott's response, and I have decided to not sell
the gun at this time. If my position ever changes,
I will contact you.
Speaker 11 (32:42):
Klaus.
Speaker 7 (32:44):
That's just ridiculous.
Speaker 8 (32:46):
Settling on the fact that we know where it is
and not getting it back.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
That's just like super frustrating.
Speaker 7 (32:55):
I mean, there's got to be something we can do.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Scott says he's willing to pay whatever Klaus wants for
the gun. So again, I contact Klaus. It's not a
money issue. Klaus responds almost immediately, I'm just not interested
in selling a gun to an individual. I can't figure
out what exactly Klaus means by an individual. Maybe in
(33:19):
the past he sold guns to organizations or museums. When
I write him back, he responds with this, based on
the background information, I would not sell this gun back
to Scott. So it's not really an individual per se,
it's this individual. Scott's letter hadn't made Klaus feel sympathetic.
(33:40):
It made him feel nervous. Like with Scott's criminal past,
A gun and a second chance might not make for
a great combo. If there was any hope, it's now gone. Well,
I have an update update Okay. A couple days later,
I catch Scott at work. Yeah, I have another update.
(34:02):
Uh huh, it looks like Klaus is willing to sell
the gun.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Ah, you're kidding me.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
No, you were right. Oh, you were right to be hopeful.
I did not think that I was going to be
reporting this back to you.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
What brought it about? What changed his mind?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I'd asked Klaus the same question. It seemed as though
over the weekend you had a change of heart.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
I figured you were going to haunt me until I
finally get it back to the guy.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I probably would.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
I just thought, you know, it seems like the guy
really wanted that item back. So yeah, I just didn't
want to be haunted about it.
Speaker 7 (34:44):
So oh, I can't even believe it.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
But there was still one thing that Klaus hadn't changed
his mind about, And I feel bad having to tell Scott.
He is saying that he is willing to sell the gun,
but he won't sell it to you. Klaus doesn't trust Scott.
Bottom line, I mean, he doesn't know me.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
He doesn't know that it's become a contributing member of society.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
After everything Scott's done to redeem himself, the rehab, the
good works, Klaus's judgment stings, but Scott gets it. It's
something he's experienced before, people accusing him of theft when
things go missing, women breaking things off when they learn
he was once an addict. The world still sees Scott
as a bad bet, but he sweeps aside his feelings
(35:31):
to address the more pressing question, who can we get
to buy the gun? The first person that comes to
my mind is the person who's always believed in Scott most.
What about your sister?
Speaker 8 (35:43):
Yeah, absolutely, now, she would be totally open and willing
to do that.
Speaker 7 (35:48):
Oh, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Well, it looks like we're going to be buying a gun.
Speaker 8 (35:52):
Let's buy a gun.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's right, except we don't. After looking into Colorado's complicated
gun laws, we learn that because Mary's not a full
time Colorado resident, it's illegal for her to buy the gun,
so we discuss options. Scott's could buy it and give
it to his dad, but that's also illegal in Colorado.
(36:14):
Only blood relatives can gift each other guns. We consider
Uncle Bill totally legal, but Scott's worried he'd buy it
and then want to keep it for himself. Out of
viable family members, we consider getting a middleman to buy
the gun from Klaus, then sell it to Scott, who
can then give it to his dad. But as it
turns out, there's a term for this, a straw purchase,
(36:37):
and it's a federal felony. It's been nearly two weeks
of phone calls with Scott, with lawyers with the Colorado
Firearms Unit, and with each passing day, I become increasingly
nervous about Klaus changing his mind. So I present Scott
with what might be our last remaining option, his dad Win.
(37:02):
Scott falls silent for the first time in the course
of this quest. He seems defeated. Thought of placing his father, Win,
the man afraid of the crack voiced pizza boy, in
a room with Klaus, the man with the gun vault
and the luger that may or may not have belonged
to Adolf Hitler, makes him wonder if maybe it's all
just gone too far. But at this point it's the
(37:25):
only way to get the gun, so Scott agrees Win
will buy the luger. After the break, Win and Klaus.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Scott and his dad Win meet me on the way
to see Klaus. Mary's here too, She's come along for support.
Klaus told us to meet him at a gun shop.
He knows where they can run the necessary background check.
We all get into Scott's.
Speaker 9 (38:07):
Car, people with microphones and stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Scott's dad, Win is seated up front. He's brought along
the luger's empty case, which sits on his lap. When
is bride eyed and smiley, but knowing from Scott how
shy and nervous his dad can be, gives his jolliness
a slightly forced quality. A road work case in point,
when our eta gets pushed back due to roadwork, Win
(38:34):
bursts into song, Oh work here? Or this is when
as Scott tells us about his day's pretty dark day,
when is the one giggling in the background.
Speaker 8 (38:48):
Four people into detox programs this morning, So a lot
of distraught parents and overdosing teenagers to deal with this morning.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
The destination is on your land.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Maybe you can even pull in. Oh what is a
private party? We pull into a parking lot and we
all get out of the car, all except for Scott.
After the way Klaus responded to his letter, He's afraid
if he goes in he'll blow the whole deal.
Speaker 9 (39:19):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 11 (39:20):
Cool, well, have fun.
Speaker 9 (39:24):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
From behind the windshield, Scott watches as his father ambles
towards the gun shop, empty gun case in his hand.
I can imagine how Scott's feeling. Scott already believes he's
failed his dad in so many ways, Sending him to
buy back his own gun in a rundown looking gun
shop with bars on the windows must feel like one
(39:48):
more failing. Let's buy ourselves a gun. Time to buy
a gun. At the door, a large man wearing sunglasses
and a holstered gun silently greets us wind Ducks. Inside
(40:09):
walls and shelves of the gun shop are full of
Nazi metals, Nazi helmets, Nazi hats, belts, uniforms, guns, and
Swastika armbands. And at the center of it all is Klaus,
who is at present chummily talking to a large tattooed
clerk with a white goatee. They quiet down when Win,
(40:29):
Mary and I approach. Klaus appears to be in his sixties.
He's a slight man with thinning, slick back hair. Winn
walks over, smiling nervously as Klaus turns to greet him,
and then the grandson of a Nazi officer shakes hands
with the son of an American soldier. As Mary and
(40:54):
Klaus introduce themselves, I adjust the levels on my recorder.
The goateed man has a look about him that says
I don't listen to podcasts just the same. I take
a deep breath, scoop my testes out of my MPR
tote bag, and, in my best vocal approximation of Ira Glass,
demand my journalistic rights. Uh. And would it be okay
(41:20):
if we were to be recording for the thing they
we're doing in the background?
Speaker 5 (41:25):
Absolutely not okay, Absolutely no.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Cut it. The luger sits on a glass display counter.
Winn walks over. That's it, he says, his father took
it off of my grandfather. Klaus jokes to the goateed
man the gun is pristine. Mary and I take turns
holding it. It's heavier than we expect. Win hands a
(41:49):
driver's license over for the background check. While we wait,
there's an awkward silence. I consider asking if anyone seen
Mama Mia too. Here we go again, and if so,
whether they thought the closing super Trooper number at the
Hotel Belladonna was a bit much. But before I can
clear my throat of anxiety, mucus, the background check is complete.
(42:13):
After all the hoopla. It took all of ten minutes.
Wind gives Klaus the money, and Klaus gives Win the gun.
For perhaps the first time ever, the luger changes hands
without incident. Klaus watches as Winn carefully places the gun
back into its case. Don't let it get out of
(42:33):
the family anymore, he says, as the goated man watches
us Wind our way to the exit. On the ride back,
everyone is quiet. I imagine Scott is feeling relief, Mary
Pride and her brother, but watching Win in the front seat,
(42:54):
staring out the window, gun case at his feet, it's
hard to say what he's feeling.
Speaker 8 (43:04):
God, this is crazy to see.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
At Mary's apartment, we all have around the dining room table,
Scott's grandfather's gun has been placed at the center. Scott
and Mary marvel at it, but I'm amazed at the
tag is still on it. Yeah, and it has a number.
Speaker 8 (43:20):
Four or five nine. Look at that.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
This is crazy.
Speaker 8 (43:26):
You understand how crazy this is.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
If Winn does understand how crazy it is, it's hard
to tell. There's something muted about his response. In fact,
since we've entered the apartment, Wind hasn't seemed interested in
his father's gun at all. When Scott asks him if
he'd like to hold it, he declines, well, Scott and
Mary passed their grandfather's gun between them. Winn sits silently.
(43:52):
I tried to draw him out. Did you put any
hopes in ever getting that gun back?
Speaker 9 (43:58):
I thought it was unfortunate that this appeared, but I
pusn't saying darn. I wish I could find that gun.
It's just a material of object.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
No one is sure what to say. Sure, it's a
material object, but it's a material object that carries great meaning.
It's a material object that connects him to his dad.
Speaker 9 (44:30):
I was not as close to my dad as I
would like to have been, the guy with a glass
of Scotch whiskey in his hands, sitting in the easy chair,
tossing out criticisms as needed. The way you grow a
better son is to criticize.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Him for the first time all day when isn't cracking
a silly joke or smiling.
Speaker 9 (44:52):
My main memory of my dad was being afraid of him. Remember,
one of my early memories is that I'd somehow succeeded
in getting a bruised bone on my shin, and I
was like three years old, and my mother was sufficient
concerned that she took me to the doctor and had
an X rayed, and it was, oh, how in the
(45:14):
world did little teddy that was me then get a
bruise on his bone? And I think what it is
is that I think I got kicked by a guy
wearing size twelve wingtips.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Scott's never heard this story before, and it seems almost
like he doesn't want to believe it.
Speaker 8 (45:34):
Were there good parts about your relationship with him, if
you had to name, if.
Speaker 9 (45:39):
I had to name, hmmm, I don't know. He was
just kind of scary all the time.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
Wynn explains that his relationship with his father wasn't the
same as Bill's relationship with their father.
Speaker 9 (45:56):
I think I felt criticized mostly for not being as
good as my brother. He always did well in school,
and I wasn't always so wondrous, and I always saw
myself as a little more plump and a little less at.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
The Bill was always the louder voice in the room.
So that Christmas, when Bill lectured Scott about the significance
of the luger, Scott had assumed Bill was speaking for
his dad too, But he wasn't.
Speaker 8 (46:24):
I saw it as this treasured possession that linked to
you to the good parts of Grandpa. But your relationship
with him is complicated and different than I even knew.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Scott was right in believing that the gun was a
reminder of Win's father, and that it carried a lot
of meaning for Win. He just misunderstood the nature of
that meaning. To know that Scott had been thinking about
(46:56):
it all these years, even maybe past year, having thought
about it, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 9 (47:05):
It makes me feel loved that he would make it
a part of his life to try to track it down.
It feels like maybe I was at least partially successful
in not being like my dad. Yeah, that I was
somebody he could run over to and climb up in
the lap of when he was little and stick his
fingers up my nose. He used to like to do that.
(47:27):
I could never stick my fingers up my dad's nose.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Wynn looks over at his son.
Speaker 9 (47:39):
Don't let it bother you anymore. The greatest prize that
I got out of this whole thing was the fact that,
even though all this crap disappeared, I got to get
my boy back. The funeral plot that I had bought
for myself to be next to your mom. I thought
I was going to have to bury my sons in it,
and I am delighted that I never had to do that.
(48:03):
That's ever so much better.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Maybe eight years ago, during Wind's visit to Scott in jail,
it wasn't the missing gun that had made him cry.
It was missing his son. But now the gun tells
a different story.
Speaker 9 (48:22):
The gun has grown, so it's not just my dad anymore.
It has a whole story to tell about my son.
And it's back returned by this guy here. Thank you
for doing all that.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Of course, a few weeks later, I get this text
from Scott the other night. It reads, I stumbled upon
a World War II documentary and for the first time
(49:04):
in eight years, Scott didn't changed the channel.
Speaker 6 (49:46):
Now that the fern ures raft turned into its goodwill home,
Now that the last month's raft is stealing with the
damaged pos.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Take this moment to dissolve.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
If we mess him, if we talk.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
The things that accident. Hey Scott, Scott, I'm good.
Speaker 10 (50:25):
How are you?
Speaker 9 (50:26):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Good and good. This is kind of suiting that we're
out of sync. This is exactly what happened during our
first interview. Do you remember I remember that is suiting. Yeah,
I just wanted to catch up with you and see
what's changed.
Speaker 11 (50:45):
I mean, the biggest changes is my my dad passing away.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
I'm so sorry to hear this.
Speaker 7 (50:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 11 (50:52):
I mean, it's it was truly in his style of
how he let us know that he had lever cancer
was a group text message and the words were, I
have terminal cancer and there's nothing that they say it
can do. Very sad news. Oh no, kind of a thing.
(51:16):
And that was in alignment with his wanting to avoid
talking over the phone.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah. He wouldn't even talk with the pizza delivery guy.
Speaker 11 (51:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (51:25):
And and so then it was, yeah, it was.
Speaker 11 (51:28):
It was about a year, a little little over a
year from what he sent out that mass text that
he passed away.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Do you think that returning the luger changed your relationship
with your dad in his last years.
Speaker 11 (51:45):
Our relationship opened up on a much deeper level after this,
And I mean that's the full circle part.
Speaker 12 (51:53):
Of it is you go back to, you know, those
early days, my dad changing the locks on his house.
So you go from that fear of me to cut
to fifteen years later, I was the only person with
a key to his house. I was the one that
was at his bedside all throughout him declining through this disease,
(52:17):
and then I was the executor of his estate, Like
I'm the one combing through and looking through all of
these things to figure out what sentimental belongings to hold
on to and what to let go of.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Where is the gun now?
Speaker 11 (52:32):
After my dad was diagnosed, he had offered the gun
to me, Oh, and he said, I would like you
to have this just because of all of the work
and everything you did to get it back, But it
meant so much more to my uncle, you know.
Speaker 8 (52:49):
Yeah, so it's actually uncle Bill who has the gun now.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Scott, thank you so much for talking.
Speaker 11 (52:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Absolutely, Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together.
We'll be back next week with another Encore presentation and
along with it, another update from our guest
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