October 16, 2025 • 33 mins
On her flight to emigrate from Italy in 1959, Anita was tasked with babysitting a two-year-old boy being brought to the US for adoption. During the flight, Anita fell in love with the child, and for the rest of her life, she wondered what became of him.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin, Karen, I'm I'm sorry to be intruding like this,
you know, just calling up at it O.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hi, oh hi, sorry, my mom called on.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
So then you just you just drop whoever you're talking to.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That's the kind of daughter.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I am not.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Very professional, but okay, yes, it actually is. Well, because
you know you're a you're a dear friend of Jackie.
So I thought maybe you know, I would turn to
you with my concern. I I've been trying to call
Jackie and she doesn't seem to be accepting my phone calls.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, I know, I could confirm that she's okay, okay,
Oh that's good, thankful, Oh, thank god. Yeah, I could
confirm that, and I can confirm that she's annoyed by
your persistence that I could confirm, okay, And I don't know.
(01:24):
I don't know what to tell you. Maybe she just
feels that you're using her, well, I am, well, maybe
she doesn't like.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That, yeah, because she wants to be the user.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Right, that's an excellent point you've got there.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Okay, Jackie, if you're out there listening, which let's face it,
you're probably not. If I am using you, it's on
behalf of America in Canada, of course, from Pushkin Industries.
(02:01):
I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight Today's episode. Stephano
right after the break. It's impossible to talk to Debbie
(02:25):
without hearing stories about her mom, Anita. Anita was Italian,
and in every story it's her autemismo for roach or
fierce optimism that takes center stage.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Truly, for her, the glass was beyond half full. It
was always full, even if there was a drop of
water in there, Jonathan, it was just always full.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
As an example, Debbie tells the story of how Anita
comforted some cousins who were concerned their child was crying
too much.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
And my mom said, no, you don't have to worry.
She's like me. I was like that for years. I
was always crying very easily. My mom was around seventy
eight years old at the time. And they said, did
you grow out of it? And my mom goes, yeah,
and they said when and she said about two years ago,
So you know, they had something to hope for.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Anita died in twenty twenty, and her death was hard
on Debbi. She misses her mom a lot and thinks
about her a lot, and perhaps because of this, she
finds herself returning to the one Anita story that has
yet to find its happy ending, and that is the
story of the airplane and the baby. Anita grew up
(03:40):
in a part of Italy called Eastria, and after World
War Two the region was seated to Yugoslavia. Suddenly, her
family was under oppressive socialist rule. So Anita and her
brother hatched an escape plan. They double layered their clothing,
borrowed a motor boat, and sailed into the Adriatic Sea.
Anita could easily have drowned.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
But my mom said, you know, you're young, and you
don't think about that kind of stuff. You just think
about freedom.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
And her brother made it to Italy, where the police
took them to a refugee camp. In the coming years,
Anita would live in several such camps.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
When I would talk to her other friends about it,
her friends would say, oh, it was hard, you know
it was. The food wasn't good most of the time,
and we didn't have money. But you would never have
known that. Talking to her, she was just eternally optimistic.
She said, it was wonderful. They opened the doors and
I saw so many people that I knew. There we'd
(04:38):
play cards, and we'd drink, and you know, the girls
would do each other's hair and just had fun.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
In nineteen fifty nine, Anita got her chance to leave
the camps a visa to the United States, and so
all alone, Anita set out to America.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
So she was getting ready to get on the flight
from Rome to New York. And there was an adoption
agency that were taking children from orphanages from Italy to
the United States. And they asked my mom if she
would babysit this little boy, this little two year old boy,
and she said, of course. Did she learn his name, Stephano, It's.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Anita, and you have I got a picture of a
little baby Stefano.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
This is Anita in a video Debbie filmed a year
before her mom's death. In the video, Anita is clutching
a photograph taken during the flight.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
So you look at how beautiful he is.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
The photograph is oddly composed, almost like it was taken
by accident when the camera was set down. Anita and
Stefano's faces are both partially cut off, but you can
tell that Anita is smiling big with the two year
old Stefano peaceful in her arms.
Speaker 6 (05:58):
How old were you there?
Speaker 5 (05:59):
Twenty four? Look at how beautiful and sixty years ago
nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It was a long flight to New York and they
had to stop three times to refuel, so for eighteen hours,
Anita held Stephano close.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
I think she just fell in love with him. She
just fell in love with that little baby. She said,
he was the best baby you could ever see.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
How good baby heels. He's the best baby. It was
very happy. I was happy, Eddie. The baby was heavy.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It was Anita's first time on an airplane and Stephano's two.
They were both leaving behind everyone they knew and setting
out alone for a new life in America. Clutching this
baby over the ocean, the two of them smiling at
each other. Anita and Stefano bonded. They were both off
to what she hoped was a better life.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
They get to New York, she was holding the baby
and the agency came up to her and then just
took him right out of her arms. She said, they
didn't say anything to her, They.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
Just take him away from me, and he started crying.
He don't know nobody.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
There was no chance to even say goodbye.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
And I was crying him. I would crying out.
Speaker 6 (07:16):
Yeah, of course that's sad.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
It was like my baby.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
She would cry. She would cry when she talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Even after raising two kids of her own, Anita never
stopped talking about the child who was hers for a day.
All through her life, even into her last years, everyone
heard about Stephano. Anita continued to hope, always needed to
believe that Stefano's life was a good one.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
She would say, I wonder where he is. Was he
in a good home? What was his life like?
Speaker 5 (07:48):
I would like to know him and see how he's doing.
I'm sorry, maybe you're far away. I don't know where
are you. I was thinking all this year about him
all the time. Yeah, and I love you even if
I don't see you too long.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
That's a nice story, and I don't know if you
understand it. I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
When Anita was still alive, there were several attempts at
finding Stefano. Anita sought out help from various friends and family,
but no one was able to get anywhere. They even
looked into a TV show that reunited adoptees with their
birth parents, but Anita wasn't Stefano's birth parent. But then
One day, Debbie brought up the subject of Stefano with
(08:29):
her close friend Lindsay.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Lindsay starts plugging stuff into the computer and she said, up,
I found him.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Hang on, but did you even have his last name?
Speaker 4 (08:39):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And who's this, Lindsay. Does she work for the state
department or something? You would think as someone who makes
his living tracking people down, like a nice version of
dog the bounty hunter, A dog the bounty hunter who
rather than dragging people off to jail, drags them off
to heal. I'm professionally piqued by this, Lindsay.
Speaker 7 (09:04):
I have a skill for finding digital footprints of people.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
This is Lindsay.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
I'm the person that people go to if you want
to know something.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
The only information she knew about Stefano was his age
and the date of the flight. But with that she
found Stefano's immigration record, which had the name of the
man on it who was set to adopt him. From there,
Lindsay found the adoptive father's obituary.
Speaker 7 (09:30):
Under the list of surviving children, there was the name Stephen,
and you know, we put that together.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
As Stephaniel Stefano. In America, Stefano became Stephen, although Lindsay
now had Stephano's full name, she had no way of
getting in touch with them. She call Hied social media,
but he was nowhere to be found. She did find
his two brothers, though, so she messaged one.
Speaker 7 (09:58):
He said that it was a very nice story, but
he doesn't speak to Stephen anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, And when Lindsay tried the other brother.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
It was basically this thing that they don't speak either.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And then Lindsay dug a little deeper and it looked
like he might have a criminal record.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Debian Lindsay couldn't see what Stephen's criminal record was. It
just came up as a flag on one of those
people finding websites. But the reality of what they were
doing suddenly sank in. They were looking for a potentially
dangerous stranger to introduce to the elderly Anita, and it
gave them pause.
Speaker 7 (10:37):
That paired with them not speaking to his brothers. Just
we weren't there. Maybe this was our bapest way to
go about this, and we wanted to take some time
to kind of figure out a game plan.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The time passed and no game plan emerged. Any year later,
Anita died, never having gotten to reunite with Stefano. After
the loss of a parent, there's often an attempt to
honor a final wish, donating to a beloved cause or
(11:11):
scattering ashes in a favorite place. But Debbie feels a
need to fulfill a different kind of wish on her
mother's behalf. She wants to know that Stefano is okay.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Anita's death was very, very, very difficult, and I think
it's healing for Debbie if we find him, and I
think that she needs this more than b thinks she does.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Lindsay says, Debbie never got the chance to fully grieve
Anita after she died COVID hit. Then her father developed
dementia and Debbie became his full time caretaker. Then her
father died.
Speaker 7 (11:45):
Just always onto this next draining saying, you know, and
since it is honoring this wish of her mom, it's
helping her feel And I can just see that when
we talk about the story, she's so hopeful and she's
so determined, and this is something that I haven't seen
(12:07):
with Debbie in a very long time.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
And for Debbie, she hopes this story might mean something
to Stefano too.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Maybe he needs to know that this woman thought of
him for most of his life, loving him from a distance,
wondering about him, praying for him. I mean, what a
thing to know after the break, Let's find him. Let's
(12:37):
find that guy, that little Stefano.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So so here we are, here, we are, my producer,
Khalila Houlton, I gather in the studio or mission is twofold.
We want to find a way to contact Stephen. But
before we do, we want to figure out what Stephen's
mysterious criminal record actually is. Khalila starts tiptapping away on
her computer while I settle in and offer the kind
(13:24):
of input that only an investigative journalist with a decades
long track record can I've gone through different phases in
my life where a V neck was more appealing than
a crew neck. It kind of goes it's always darkest
before the dawn? Is that true? I was like to Augie,
I was like, smell how good that is? And He's
like that smells disgusting. I was like, I could think
of other times when it's darker. It's probably darker at night.
(13:46):
My gal don't do much talking dances even when she's
walking on ontok Oh, look at that little squirrel. Oh,
here's criminal traffic, and then finally we find the record
we've been looking for. Do you why uh okay? In
nineteen eighty nine. That was a long time ago, so
(14:06):
there's really no other criminal past except to that's all
I'm seeing. Boy, that's sad that that was enough to
kind of make them drop the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Yeah, please leave your message for five.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Khalila digs up some possible phone numbers for Stephen online,
and in the weeks to come, I leave numerous voicemails.
Hi there, I'm looking for a Stephen. I call so
many numbers. I hear automated messages entirely new to me.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
The number is in service?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Is in service?
Speaker 4 (14:37):
By your call again.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
None of these phone numbers lead me to Stephen. They
just lead me to different robotic voices.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
You're calling out, all right?
Speaker 7 (14:46):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
With the telephone having crapped on our heads, we decide
that what we need is an even older form of communication,
the US Postal Service. Khalila uncovers three possible mailing addresses
for Steven. So we write three letters and drop them
in the mailbox, letting them fly off into the world
like three hopeful birds. And then time as is its
(15:16):
wont passes two years go by two years. It's unlikely
the average podcast listener's brain, raised on podcasts about celebs,
elk Steak and the science of why people go to
the bathroom, can easily conceptualize the passage of so much time.
(15:40):
If this was a video podcast, I'd stare into the
camera with my patented deadpan affect as my beard and
fingernails grew in time lapse. But since it isn't a
video podcast, I present you an audiophonic aid that was
(16:08):
only ten seconds. Now imagine two years, two years of
refreshing my inbox and calling my answering service to no avail,
and then Debbie and I check back in Where are
you right now? It appears that you have a ladder
behind you.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Yes, I'm at home.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And where does this ladder lead to?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Nowhere, it's ladder to.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
We're going nowhere with this ladder.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I hope we're going somewhere with this story. I hope
we're not on a ladder to nowhere. It seems Debbie
hasn't given up on Stefano. She tells me Lindsay found
some of the same phone numbers we did, So Debbie
two tried calling and leaving messages. No one ever called back,
though still Debbie wants to keep trying, and so more
letters are sent, more voicemails left, and two more months
(16:57):
go by. I've completely given up hope. And then one
afternoon I finally hear from Stephen. You did, I did?
You did?
Speaker 6 (17:09):
I did?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, sucked. I wasn't holding out a lot of hope
me either. I tell Debbie about the phone call. How
Stephen told me he dismissed my letters as a scam.
I asked if he'd be open to a conversation with Debbie,
but he said he doesn't have transportation, and when I
said we could do a video call, he said he
(17:31):
hasn't a cell phone nor a computer, and he quote
doesn't follow the Internet. But eventually he said he'd be
okay with a telephone call.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
I would love her.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
I think it's a gift that he doesn't realize.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
You know, So he is available one o'clock green Mountain time,
So that would be like, oh, sorry, mountain time, Mountain time,
not green Mountain After the break, Stephano at long last,
his green Mountain time A thing sounds like a coffee thing.
That would be three o'clock in St Cafe, So one
(18:06):
o'clock Green Mountain. The next day, at one pm, Green
Mountain time, Debbie and I convene. Okay, I'll give him
(18:27):
a call, I'll phone him all and I'll introduce you guys.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Okay, okay, Hello.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Hello, Stephen. Y Hi, it's Jonathan phoning. I'm here with Debbie.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Oh you are Hi, Stephen?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
How are you?
Speaker 8 (18:53):
I'm fine? How are you?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I'm good. I'm really good, and I'm really excited to
hear your voice and to know that you're here right now. So, Stephen.
My mom her name was Anita.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
And Debbie lays it all out for Steven, the plane ride,
the love Anita felt for him, and how that love
endured for Anita's entire life.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
You were always on her mind for many, many years
and told many people about you.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
God bless your mom.
Speaker 8 (19:35):
I wish she had adopted me.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I think she would have liked that too.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Anita always wanted to know whether, after being taken from
her arms, Stephano's life had been a good one. So
we started at the beginning with Steven's adoption.
Speaker 9 (19:54):
My foster parents told me.
Speaker 8 (19:58):
Roughly at the age of eight.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
You call them your foster parents. Did they adopt you?
Speaker 8 (20:05):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Were they good people?
Speaker 8 (20:09):
I mean there was three squares a day.
Speaker 9 (20:14):
I mean there was no abuse or anything like that.
Speaker 8 (20:20):
I don't mind. Uh lickens is what my dad called it.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Did you say, Lincoln?
Speaker 8 (20:28):
Yeah? About It wasn't abuse.
Speaker 9 (20:34):
It was just for disappoint purposes?
Speaker 8 (20:39):
Was that?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Was that? Roth?
Speaker 8 (20:42):
Well for a little kid, it is?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Did did you? But did you feel loved?
Speaker 8 (20:50):
Yes? I did?
Speaker 9 (20:54):
Oh I remember from childhood. Out of the friends and
they turned out to be drug addicts. I turned out nominal.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
What do you mean when you say nominal?
Speaker 9 (21:12):
Well, I have a serious alcohol problem. Okay, I know
I sound like I've been drinking, but I haven't. I
don't have anything here. I was pretty much known as
a boozer.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Back in the day. Stephen says the drinking got bad,
which led to the duy.
Speaker 9 (21:38):
You don't think when you drink, you get behind the
wheel of a vehicle drunk is preposterous.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Did your father?
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Did your adoptive father do something similar?
Speaker 8 (21:54):
He drank, but not in excess.
Speaker 9 (21:58):
I never saw him on a drunken stupor well, nobody's
ever seen me.
Speaker 8 (22:07):
I won't watch them.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, so you drink Alone.
Speaker 9 (22:13):
Yes, that song by that one guy, George sirgood, I
Drink Alone reminds me of me.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
As the conversation goes on, Debbie grows increasingly quiet. So
I do my best to draw Steven out. Did you
did you get married?
Speaker 8 (22:34):
No, I've never been married. I've had relationships that they
come and go.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Would you say that you that you've been in love?
Speaker 8 (22:47):
I've been infatuated, proved that.
Speaker 9 (22:52):
And I lived with a lady for many years, but
that was back in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
What can you say about her, Joanne?
Speaker 8 (23:05):
Hmm uh, she died in a long camp. Sure, and
I lived with her for like nine years.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Oh boy, did she pass away while you were living together?
Speaker 8 (23:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
That must have been hard.
Speaker 8 (23:27):
Yeah was, But I moved on.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Stephen tells us that he was in the Navy for
four years, that he missed Vietnam by just a month.
Most of his professional life was spent working in factories.
I asked him about his brothers why they no longer speak,
but he says nothing in particular happened. They just drifted. Overall,
he says his life has been nominal and fortunate. When
(23:59):
I ask how so, he cites the fact that he's
never been homeless, although there was a brief period in
twenty fourteen when he ended up in a veteran shelter.
It was fine, says, except for the fact that he
couldn't control the heat or the air conditioning, and shortly
after that he moved into a room in his friend
Carl's house, which is where he is now.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I took a video of her telling the story. I
don't know if you're interested in hearing it.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
DeBie wants Stephen to hear what he meant to Anita
in Anita's own words. In response, Stephen says that he
doesn't have access to a car right now, plus he's
sick in bed. I assume he thinks we're asking him
to go somewhere, So I try again to explain, we
could try to play a little bit of the video
over the phone so that you can hear Anita's voice.
Speaker 9 (24:58):
Not right now.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I'm good, it's no misunderstanding. Stephen doesn't want to hear
Anita Bill. Debbie tries to explain her mom's feelings for
the baby she held during that flight to America.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I think in some ways she felt like sympathical with you,
you know, like sympathetic with you that you were both
leaving your homeland.
Speaker 8 (25:23):
Hm hmm.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I mean, is it strange to think that as a
baby you were able to have such a strong effect
on somebody.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
Well, I don't think of it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
As that, but well, how do you think of it?
Speaker 8 (25:41):
That could be anything like I love this little toddler,
you know, I love Peta. It could be.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
Anything.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
The conversation feels like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.
If it's a battle between optimism and pessimism, it feels
like pessimism is winning.
Speaker 8 (26:17):
It was surprising to get the letter, and I thought worries.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
People doing Yeah, I just felt like it was a gift.
Speaker 8 (26:31):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 9 (26:33):
Yeah, I'm a little old now to be concerned.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Did you feel like it's too late?
Speaker 8 (26:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I do.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
That.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Baby Stephano doesn't exist anymore. When he was taken out
of Anita's arms, he became Stephen, and Stephen is a
sixty eight year old man dealing with ill health. Feeling
of a stranger who encountered him for one day as
a toddler seemed largely irrelevant. Debbie wanted to give Stefano
a gift, but Stephen doesn't want that gift.
Speaker 9 (27:21):
I'm going to have to discharge now, so I'm going
to leave you folks.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Me Before he goes, though, Stephen asks if we could
mail him a copy of the photograph of Anita and
him on the plane.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
Mail that to me.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, please, okay, thank you, Okay.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
It was so nice talking to you. I really appreciate
you taking the time. I wish you the best. I
wish you well.
Speaker 8 (27:47):
Yay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
After we hang up, Debbie and I sit in silence
for a moment. Yeah, hmm.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
It's hard to know what to make of any of it.
On the one hand, Stephen's reaction is reasonable. It is
strange to be called up by the daughter of a
woman you spent one day with when you were a
two year old. In some ways, the story of Anita
and Stephano was an easier one to tell when it
was incomplete. A woman immigrates with a baby and thinks
(28:22):
about him for the rest of her life, and then
what the baby becomes a man and doesn't care. The
man who was once the baby faces hardship. Nice anecdotes
become harder to sum up when you involve the lives
of real people.
Speaker 10 (28:38):
He took it differently than I thought, definitely took it
differently than I thought it Just I think the part
that makes me cry a little bit is that he
didn't want to hear my mom. Yeah, but you can't
make people, you know, see things the way you see them.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
You can never assume a gift, you know. Debbie is disappointed, though,
not just because of what she wanted and didn't get,
but because of what she did get. Well, our picture
of Stephen's life is fragmented. Did the details he shared
contained a lot of sorrow.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
And I don't know how my mom. I think maybe
how would it have been for her if she would
have actually met him or talked to him?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
You know, maybe it's better that I did.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
How do you how do you think she would have
dealt with it? Like, what do you think she would
have said to him?
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Oh, she would have told him she loved him. She
probably would have invited him over. Really, she would have
figured out a way to feed him. My mom loved deeply. Yeah,
she really loved people deeply. The love that was more
than pizza. He can't. I don't think he could even
comprehend it. I think most people couldn't comprehend that.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
In that video of Anita, the one that Stephen didn't
want to hear, there's a moment where Anita wonders if
she's being understood.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
That's a nice story, and I don't know if you
understand it. I think so.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
When I fir saw it, I assumed she was referring
to her accent or less than perfect English. But now
I wonder if there was something more behind it. We
live our lives in the desperate hope that if we
find the right words, tell the story the right way,
our love will be understood. We will be understood. We hope,
even as we misconstrue and grow offended and talk past
(30:31):
each other, we hope love, some iota of it will
get through, even though time and time again were disappointed.
The next time I speak with Debbie, she tells me
how the night after her call with Stephen, she woke
up at three am from a bad dream. She got
(30:52):
out of bed and went downstairs, who was pouring outside,
And Debbie thought about Stephano, the boy her mother held
on the airplane back in nineteen fifty nine, And she
thought about the man she spoke to on the phone
sixty five years later, and she thought about her mom,
and she grieved, crying for about an hour. Maybe this
(31:12):
will plant a seed for Stephen, Debbie tells me, After all,
he did seem to really want that photograph. Maybe someday
he'll look back at the things she was trying to
tell him and he'll finally feel that love from her mother.
It seems like an unlikely hope, but in this way,
Debbie is like her mom.
Speaker 11 (32:18):
Now that the Fernitures returning to its goodwill home, now
that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage
to pose, take this moment to deserve.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
If we meant it, if we turn we remember, felt
around for funds from things that accidentally. This episode of
Heavyweight was produced by Khalila Holt and me Jonathan Goldstein,
(32:59):
along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane.
Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Ben Natta, Haaffrey,
Lucy Sullivan, and Trina Menino. Emma Monger mixed the episode
with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson, and
Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Saigon Would
(33:20):
Be Soul and Katie Mullins. Our theme song is by
the Weaker Than's courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on
Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast, or email us at Heavyweight at
pushkin dot Fm. Tune in next week for a special
Pushkin Anthology show about mistakes with the hosts of Risky Business,
Cautionary Tales and Heavyweight. Hey that's Me
Pushkin, Karen, I'm I'm sorry to be intruding like this,
you know, just calling up at it O.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hi, oh hi, sorry, my mom called on.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
So then you just you just drop whoever you're talking to.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That's the kind of daughter.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I am not.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Very professional, but okay, yes, it actually is. Well, because
you know you're a you're a dear friend of Jackie.
So I thought maybe you know, I would turn to
you with my concern. I I've been trying to call
Jackie and she doesn't seem to be accepting my phone calls.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, I know, I could confirm that she's okay, okay,
Oh that's good, thankful, Oh, thank god. Yeah, I could
confirm that, and I can confirm that she's annoyed by
your persistence that I could confirm, okay, And I don't know.
(01:24):
I don't know what to tell you. Maybe she just
feels that you're using her, well, I am, well, maybe
she doesn't like.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That, yeah, because she wants to be the user.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Right, that's an excellent point you've got there.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Okay, Jackie, if you're out there listening, which let's face it,
you're probably not. If I am using you, it's on
behalf of America in Canada, of course, from Pushkin Industries.
(02:01):
I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight Today's episode. Stephano
right after the break. It's impossible to talk to Debbie
(02:25):
without hearing stories about her mom, Anita. Anita was Italian,
and in every story it's her autemismo for roach or
fierce optimism that takes center stage.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Truly, for her, the glass was beyond half full. It
was always full, even if there was a drop of
water in there, Jonathan, it was just always full.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
As an example, Debbie tells the story of how Anita
comforted some cousins who were concerned their child was crying
too much.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
And my mom said, no, you don't have to worry.
She's like me. I was like that for years. I
was always crying very easily. My mom was around seventy
eight years old at the time. And they said, did
you grow out of it? And my mom goes, yeah,
and they said when and she said about two years ago,
So you know, they had something to hope for.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Anita died in twenty twenty, and her death was hard
on Debbi. She misses her mom a lot and thinks
about her a lot, and perhaps because of this, she
finds herself returning to the one Anita story that has
yet to find its happy ending, and that is the
story of the airplane and the baby. Anita grew up
(03:40):
in a part of Italy called Eastria, and after World
War Two the region was seated to Yugoslavia. Suddenly, her
family was under oppressive socialist rule. So Anita and her
brother hatched an escape plan. They double layered their clothing,
borrowed a motor boat, and sailed into the Adriatic Sea.
Anita could easily have drowned.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
But my mom said, you know, you're young, and you
don't think about that kind of stuff. You just think
about freedom.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
And her brother made it to Italy, where the police
took them to a refugee camp. In the coming years,
Anita would live in several such camps.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
When I would talk to her other friends about it,
her friends would say, oh, it was hard, you know
it was. The food wasn't good most of the time,
and we didn't have money. But you would never have
known that. Talking to her, she was just eternally optimistic.
She said, it was wonderful. They opened the doors and
I saw so many people that I knew. There we'd
(04:38):
play cards, and we'd drink, and you know, the girls
would do each other's hair and just had fun.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
In nineteen fifty nine, Anita got her chance to leave
the camps a visa to the United States, and so
all alone, Anita set out to America.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
So she was getting ready to get on the flight
from Rome to New York. And there was an adoption
agency that were taking children from orphanages from Italy to
the United States. And they asked my mom if she
would babysit this little boy, this little two year old boy,
and she said, of course. Did she learn his name, Stephano, It's.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Anita, and you have I got a picture of a
little baby Stefano.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
This is Anita in a video Debbie filmed a year
before her mom's death. In the video, Anita is clutching
a photograph taken during the flight.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
So you look at how beautiful he is.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
The photograph is oddly composed, almost like it was taken
by accident when the camera was set down. Anita and
Stefano's faces are both partially cut off, but you can
tell that Anita is smiling big with the two year
old Stefano peaceful in her arms.
Speaker 6 (05:58):
How old were you there?
Speaker 5 (05:59):
Twenty four? Look at how beautiful and sixty years ago
nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It was a long flight to New York and they
had to stop three times to refuel, so for eighteen hours,
Anita held Stephano close.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
I think she just fell in love with him. She
just fell in love with that little baby. She said,
he was the best baby you could ever see.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
How good baby heels. He's the best baby. It was
very happy. I was happy, Eddie. The baby was heavy.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It was Anita's first time on an airplane and Stephano's two.
They were both leaving behind everyone they knew and setting
out alone for a new life in America. Clutching this
baby over the ocean, the two of them smiling at
each other. Anita and Stefano bonded. They were both off
to what she hoped was a better life.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
They get to New York, she was holding the baby
and the agency came up to her and then just
took him right out of her arms. She said, they
didn't say anything to her, They.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
Just take him away from me, and he started crying.
He don't know nobody.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
There was no chance to even say goodbye.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
And I was crying him. I would crying out.
Speaker 6 (07:16):
Yeah, of course that's sad.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
It was like my baby.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
She would cry. She would cry when she talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Even after raising two kids of her own, Anita never
stopped talking about the child who was hers for a day.
All through her life, even into her last years, everyone
heard about Stephano. Anita continued to hope, always needed to
believe that Stefano's life was a good one.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
She would say, I wonder where he is. Was he
in a good home? What was his life like?
Speaker 5 (07:48):
I would like to know him and see how he's doing.
I'm sorry, maybe you're far away. I don't know where
are you. I was thinking all this year about him
all the time. Yeah, and I love you even if
I don't see you too long.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
That's a nice story, and I don't know if you
understand it. I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
When Anita was still alive, there were several attempts at
finding Stefano. Anita sought out help from various friends and family,
but no one was able to get anywhere. They even
looked into a TV show that reunited adoptees with their
birth parents, but Anita wasn't Stefano's birth parent. But then
One day, Debbie brought up the subject of Stefano with
(08:29):
her close friend Lindsay.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Lindsay starts plugging stuff into the computer and she said, up,
I found him.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Hang on, but did you even have his last name?
Speaker 4 (08:39):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And who's this, Lindsay. Does she work for the state
department or something? You would think as someone who makes
his living tracking people down, like a nice version of
dog the bounty hunter, A dog the bounty hunter who
rather than dragging people off to jail, drags them off
to heal. I'm professionally piqued by this, Lindsay.
Speaker 7 (09:04):
I have a skill for finding digital footprints of people.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
This is Lindsay.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
I'm the person that people go to if you want
to know something.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
The only information she knew about Stefano was his age
and the date of the flight. But with that she
found Stefano's immigration record, which had the name of the
man on it who was set to adopt him. From there,
Lindsay found the adoptive father's obituary.
Speaker 7 (09:30):
Under the list of surviving children, there was the name Stephen,
and you know, we put that together.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
As Stephaniel Stefano. In America, Stefano became Stephen, although Lindsay
now had Stephano's full name, she had no way of
getting in touch with them. She call Hied social media,
but he was nowhere to be found. She did find
his two brothers, though, so she messaged one.
Speaker 7 (09:58):
He said that it was a very nice story, but
he doesn't speak to Stephen anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, And when Lindsay tried the other brother.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
It was basically this thing that they don't speak either.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And then Lindsay dug a little deeper and it looked
like he might have a criminal record.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Debian Lindsay couldn't see what Stephen's criminal record was. It
just came up as a flag on one of those
people finding websites. But the reality of what they were
doing suddenly sank in. They were looking for a potentially
dangerous stranger to introduce to the elderly Anita, and it
gave them pause.
Speaker 7 (10:37):
That paired with them not speaking to his brothers. Just
we weren't there. Maybe this was our bapest way to
go about this, and we wanted to take some time
to kind of figure out a game plan.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The time passed and no game plan emerged. Any year later,
Anita died, never having gotten to reunite with Stefano. After
the loss of a parent, there's often an attempt to
honor a final wish, donating to a beloved cause or
(11:11):
scattering ashes in a favorite place. But Debbie feels a
need to fulfill a different kind of wish on her
mother's behalf. She wants to know that Stefano is okay.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Anita's death was very, very, very difficult, and I think
it's healing for Debbie if we find him, and I
think that she needs this more than b thinks she does.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Lindsay says, Debbie never got the chance to fully grieve
Anita after she died COVID hit. Then her father developed
dementia and Debbie became his full time caretaker. Then her
father died.
Speaker 7 (11:45):
Just always onto this next draining saying, you know, and
since it is honoring this wish of her mom, it's
helping her feel And I can just see that when
we talk about the story, she's so hopeful and she's
so determined, and this is something that I haven't seen
(12:07):
with Debbie in a very long time.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
And for Debbie, she hopes this story might mean something
to Stefano too.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Maybe he needs to know that this woman thought of
him for most of his life, loving him from a distance,
wondering about him, praying for him. I mean, what a
thing to know after the break, Let's find him. Let's
(12:37):
find that guy, that little Stefano.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So so here we are, here, we are, my producer,
Khalila Houlton, I gather in the studio or mission is twofold.
We want to find a way to contact Stephen. But
before we do, we want to figure out what Stephen's
mysterious criminal record actually is. Khalila starts tiptapping away on
her computer while I settle in and offer the kind
(13:24):
of input that only an investigative journalist with a decades
long track record can I've gone through different phases in
my life where a V neck was more appealing than
a crew neck. It kind of goes it's always darkest
before the dawn? Is that true? I was like to Augie,
I was like, smell how good that is? And He's
like that smells disgusting. I was like, I could think
of other times when it's darker. It's probably darker at night.
(13:46):
My gal don't do much talking dances even when she's
walking on ontok Oh, look at that little squirrel. Oh,
here's criminal traffic, and then finally we find the record
we've been looking for. Do you why uh okay? In
nineteen eighty nine. That was a long time ago, so
(14:06):
there's really no other criminal past except to that's all
I'm seeing. Boy, that's sad that that was enough to
kind of make them drop the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Yeah, please leave your message for five.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Khalila digs up some possible phone numbers for Stephen online,
and in the weeks to come, I leave numerous voicemails.
Hi there, I'm looking for a Stephen. I call so
many numbers. I hear automated messages entirely new to me.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
The number is in service?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Is in service?
Speaker 4 (14:37):
By your call again.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
None of these phone numbers lead me to Stephen. They
just lead me to different robotic voices.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
You're calling out, all right?
Speaker 7 (14:46):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
With the telephone having crapped on our heads, we decide
that what we need is an even older form of communication,
the US Postal Service. Khalila uncovers three possible mailing addresses
for Steven. So we write three letters and drop them
in the mailbox, letting them fly off into the world
like three hopeful birds. And then time as is its
(15:16):
wont passes two years go by two years. It's unlikely
the average podcast listener's brain, raised on podcasts about celebs,
elk Steak and the science of why people go to
the bathroom, can easily conceptualize the passage of so much time.
(15:40):
If this was a video podcast, I'd stare into the
camera with my patented deadpan affect as my beard and
fingernails grew in time lapse. But since it isn't a
video podcast, I present you an audiophonic aid that was
(16:08):
only ten seconds. Now imagine two years, two years of
refreshing my inbox and calling my answering service to no avail,
and then Debbie and I check back in Where are
you right now? It appears that you have a ladder
behind you.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Yes, I'm at home.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And where does this ladder lead to?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Nowhere, it's ladder to.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
We're going nowhere with this ladder.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I hope we're going somewhere with this story. I hope
we're not on a ladder to nowhere. It seems Debbie
hasn't given up on Stefano. She tells me Lindsay found
some of the same phone numbers we did, So Debbie
two tried calling and leaving messages. No one ever called back,
though still Debbie wants to keep trying, and so more
letters are sent, more voicemails left, and two more months
(16:57):
go by. I've completely given up hope. And then one
afternoon I finally hear from Stephen. You did, I did?
You did?
Speaker 6 (17:09):
I did?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, sucked. I wasn't holding out a lot of hope
me either. I tell Debbie about the phone call. How
Stephen told me he dismissed my letters as a scam.
I asked if he'd be open to a conversation with Debbie,
but he said he doesn't have transportation, and when I
said we could do a video call, he said he
(17:31):
hasn't a cell phone nor a computer, and he quote
doesn't follow the Internet. But eventually he said he'd be
okay with a telephone call.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
I would love her.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
I think it's a gift that he doesn't realize.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
You know, So he is available one o'clock green Mountain time,
So that would be like, oh, sorry, mountain time, Mountain time,
not green Mountain After the break, Stephano at long last,
his green Mountain time A thing sounds like a coffee thing.
That would be three o'clock in St Cafe, So one
(18:06):
o'clock Green Mountain. The next day, at one pm, Green
Mountain time, Debbie and I convene. Okay, I'll give him
(18:27):
a call, I'll phone him all and I'll introduce you guys.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Okay, okay, Hello.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Hello, Stephen. Y Hi, it's Jonathan phoning. I'm here with Debbie.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Oh you are Hi, Stephen?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
How are you?
Speaker 8 (18:53):
I'm fine? How are you?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I'm good. I'm really good, and I'm really excited to
hear your voice and to know that you're here right now. So, Stephen.
My mom her name was Anita.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
And Debbie lays it all out for Steven, the plane ride,
the love Anita felt for him, and how that love
endured for Anita's entire life.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
You were always on her mind for many, many years
and told many people about you.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
God bless your mom.
Speaker 8 (19:35):
I wish she had adopted me.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I think she would have liked that too.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Anita always wanted to know whether, after being taken from
her arms, Stephano's life had been a good one. So
we started at the beginning with Steven's adoption.
Speaker 9 (19:54):
My foster parents told me.
Speaker 8 (19:58):
Roughly at the age of eight.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
You call them your foster parents. Did they adopt you?
Speaker 8 (20:05):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Were they good people?
Speaker 8 (20:09):
I mean there was three squares a day.
Speaker 9 (20:14):
I mean there was no abuse or anything like that.
Speaker 8 (20:20):
I don't mind. Uh lickens is what my dad called it.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Did you say, Lincoln?
Speaker 8 (20:28):
Yeah? About It wasn't abuse.
Speaker 9 (20:34):
It was just for disappoint purposes?
Speaker 8 (20:39):
Was that?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Was that? Roth?
Speaker 8 (20:42):
Well for a little kid, it is?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Did did you? But did you feel loved?
Speaker 8 (20:50):
Yes? I did?
Speaker 9 (20:54):
Oh I remember from childhood. Out of the friends and
they turned out to be drug addicts. I turned out nominal.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
What do you mean when you say nominal?
Speaker 9 (21:12):
Well, I have a serious alcohol problem. Okay, I know
I sound like I've been drinking, but I haven't. I
don't have anything here. I was pretty much known as
a boozer.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Back in the day. Stephen says the drinking got bad,
which led to the duy.
Speaker 9 (21:38):
You don't think when you drink, you get behind the
wheel of a vehicle drunk is preposterous.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Did your father?
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Did your adoptive father do something similar?
Speaker 8 (21:54):
He drank, but not in excess.
Speaker 9 (21:58):
I never saw him on a drunken stupor well, nobody's
ever seen me.
Speaker 8 (22:07):
I won't watch them.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, so you drink Alone.
Speaker 9 (22:13):
Yes, that song by that one guy, George sirgood, I
Drink Alone reminds me of me.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
As the conversation goes on, Debbie grows increasingly quiet. So
I do my best to draw Steven out. Did you
did you get married?
Speaker 8 (22:34):
No, I've never been married. I've had relationships that they
come and go.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Would you say that you that you've been in love?
Speaker 8 (22:47):
I've been infatuated, proved that.
Speaker 9 (22:52):
And I lived with a lady for many years, but
that was back in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
What can you say about her, Joanne?
Speaker 8 (23:05):
Hmm uh, she died in a long camp. Sure, and
I lived with her for like nine years.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Oh boy, did she pass away while you were living together?
Speaker 8 (23:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
That must have been hard.
Speaker 8 (23:27):
Yeah was, But I moved on.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Stephen tells us that he was in the Navy for
four years, that he missed Vietnam by just a month.
Most of his professional life was spent working in factories.
I asked him about his brothers why they no longer speak,
but he says nothing in particular happened. They just drifted. Overall,
he says his life has been nominal and fortunate. When
(23:59):
I ask how so, he cites the fact that he's
never been homeless, although there was a brief period in
twenty fourteen when he ended up in a veteran shelter.
It was fine, says, except for the fact that he
couldn't control the heat or the air conditioning, and shortly
after that he moved into a room in his friend
Carl's house, which is where he is now.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I took a video of her telling the story. I
don't know if you're interested in hearing it.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
DeBie wants Stephen to hear what he meant to Anita
in Anita's own words. In response, Stephen says that he
doesn't have access to a car right now, plus he's
sick in bed. I assume he thinks we're asking him
to go somewhere, So I try again to explain, we
could try to play a little bit of the video
over the phone so that you can hear Anita's voice.
Speaker 9 (24:58):
Not right now.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I'm good, it's no misunderstanding. Stephen doesn't want to hear
Anita Bill. Debbie tries to explain her mom's feelings for
the baby she held during that flight to America.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I think in some ways she felt like sympathical with you,
you know, like sympathetic with you that you were both
leaving your homeland.
Speaker 8 (25:23):
Hm hmm.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I mean, is it strange to think that as a
baby you were able to have such a strong effect
on somebody.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
Well, I don't think of it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
As that, but well, how do you think of it?
Speaker 8 (25:41):
That could be anything like I love this little toddler,
you know, I love Peta. It could be.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
Anything.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
The conversation feels like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.
If it's a battle between optimism and pessimism, it feels
like pessimism is winning.
Speaker 8 (26:17):
It was surprising to get the letter, and I thought worries.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
People doing Yeah, I just felt like it was a gift.
Speaker 8 (26:31):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 9 (26:33):
Yeah, I'm a little old now to be concerned.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Did you feel like it's too late?
Speaker 8 (26:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I do.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
That.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Baby Stephano doesn't exist anymore. When he was taken out
of Anita's arms, he became Stephen, and Stephen is a
sixty eight year old man dealing with ill health. Feeling
of a stranger who encountered him for one day as
a toddler seemed largely irrelevant. Debbie wanted to give Stefano
a gift, but Stephen doesn't want that gift.
Speaker 9 (27:21):
I'm going to have to discharge now, so I'm going
to leave you folks.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Me Before he goes, though, Stephen asks if we could
mail him a copy of the photograph of Anita and
him on the plane.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
Mail that to me.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, please, okay, thank you, Okay.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
It was so nice talking to you. I really appreciate
you taking the time. I wish you the best. I
wish you well.
Speaker 8 (27:47):
Yay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
After we hang up, Debbie and I sit in silence
for a moment. Yeah, hmm.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
It's hard to know what to make of any of it.
On the one hand, Stephen's reaction is reasonable. It is
strange to be called up by the daughter of a
woman you spent one day with when you were a
two year old. In some ways, the story of Anita
and Stephano was an easier one to tell when it
was incomplete. A woman immigrates with a baby and thinks
(28:22):
about him for the rest of her life, and then
what the baby becomes a man and doesn't care. The
man who was once the baby faces hardship. Nice anecdotes
become harder to sum up when you involve the lives
of real people.
Speaker 10 (28:38):
He took it differently than I thought, definitely took it
differently than I thought it Just I think the part
that makes me cry a little bit is that he
didn't want to hear my mom. Yeah, but you can't
make people, you know, see things the way you see them.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
You can never assume a gift, you know. Debbie is disappointed, though,
not just because of what she wanted and didn't get,
but because of what she did get. Well, our picture
of Stephen's life is fragmented. Did the details he shared
contained a lot of sorrow.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
And I don't know how my mom. I think maybe
how would it have been for her if she would
have actually met him or talked to him?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
You know, maybe it's better that I did.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
How do you how do you think she would have
dealt with it? Like, what do you think she would
have said to him?
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Oh, she would have told him she loved him. She
probably would have invited him over. Really, she would have
figured out a way to feed him. My mom loved deeply. Yeah,
she really loved people deeply. The love that was more
than pizza. He can't. I don't think he could even
comprehend it. I think most people couldn't comprehend that.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
In that video of Anita, the one that Stephen didn't
want to hear, there's a moment where Anita wonders if
she's being understood.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
That's a nice story, and I don't know if you
understand it. I think so.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
When I fir saw it, I assumed she was referring
to her accent or less than perfect English. But now
I wonder if there was something more behind it. We
live our lives in the desperate hope that if we
find the right words, tell the story the right way,
our love will be understood. We will be understood. We hope,
even as we misconstrue and grow offended and talk past
(30:31):
each other, we hope love, some iota of it will
get through, even though time and time again were disappointed.
The next time I speak with Debbie, she tells me
how the night after her call with Stephen, she woke
up at three am from a bad dream. She got
(30:52):
out of bed and went downstairs, who was pouring outside,
And Debbie thought about Stephano, the boy her mother held
on the airplane back in nineteen fifty nine, And she
thought about the man she spoke to on the phone
sixty five years later, and she thought about her mom,
and she grieved, crying for about an hour. Maybe this
(31:12):
will plant a seed for Stephen, Debbie tells me, After all,
he did seem to really want that photograph. Maybe someday
he'll look back at the things she was trying to
tell him and he'll finally feel that love from her mother.
It seems like an unlikely hope, but in this way,
Debbie is like her mom.
Speaker 11 (32:18):
Now that the Fernitures returning to its goodwill home, now
that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage
to pose, take this moment to deserve.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
If we meant it, if we turn we remember, felt
around for funds from things that accidentally. This episode of
Heavyweight was produced by Khalila Holt and me Jonathan Goldstein,
(32:59):
along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane.
Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Ben Natta, Haaffrey,
Lucy Sullivan, and Trina Menino. Emma Monger mixed the episode
with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson, and
Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Saigon Would
(33:20):
Be Soul and Katie Mullins. Our theme song is by
the Weaker Than's courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on
Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast, or email us at Heavyweight at
pushkin dot Fm. Tune in next week for a special
Pushkin Anthology show about mistakes with the hosts of Risky Business,
Cautionary Tales and Heavyweight. Hey that's Me
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