February 27, 2025 • 41 mins
We are thrilled to welcome the acclaimed narrative series Heavyweight to the Pushkin network. In each episode Jonathan Goldstein sets out to help someone confront their past and heal old wounds. Today we’re sharing their very first episode, “Buzz.”
And because we couldn’t only pick one segment to share, here’s a list of the Revisionist History team’s favorite episodes:
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, Hello Revisionist History listeners. We're having a very exciting
week here at Pushkin. You know that I'm Canadian, right,
We actually fly a big maple leaf flag here at
Pushkin HQ. Well, this week we added another Canadian. The
great Jonathan Goldstein, native of Quebec, has brought his acclaimed
narrative series Heavyweight to the Pushkin Network.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh Canada, our home and native land, true patrid love,
in all our hearts command.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Jonathan and the Heavyweight team represent everything we believe in
here at Pushkin. The power of storytelling, the value of
intelligence and emotion, the belief that Canadians can and should
dominate all aspects of American culture. Heavyweight examines personal histories
and resentments. It tries to heal old wounds, and then
the process reminds us of our shared humanity. Yes, it's
(01:14):
that good. We're dropping the first ever episode here in
the feed about Jonathan's quest to reconcile his father with
his estranged brother Buzz Enjoy And there is much, much,
much more to come. And if you want to listen
to more Heavyweight, which I'm sure you do, check out
the show notes for the Revisionist History team's favorite episodes.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yell from Gimblet Media. This is Jonathan Goldstein. Your old
pal is that.
Speaker 5 (01:47):
Was called Gimblet Gimblet Media.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
That's correct.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
It sounds like giblets, the inside of a chicken, like
all the innerds.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Well, everybody loves giblet.
Speaker 6 (01:54):
You Oh shit, they're my kids.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Hey guys, I'm up here. Do you know what my
new podcast is about.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
I know, I don't know anything about it.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Each week, I travel into people's past to help them
repair something that's been troubling them. I'm sort of like
a therapist.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Like a therapist.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
So yeah, do you find out? Do you find that funny?
I supportive? That's the laughter of support.
Speaker 6 (02:23):
I think it's great.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I think it's great. Do you have any questions for
me about what my show is and what it's going
to be? Like, what's the name of your show?
Speaker 6 (02:33):
What's the name of your show?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yes, we're gonna go now, but Johnson's just about tell
me the name of his new show.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
As soon as he tells me, I'm going to bang
down on him in five Remember to do that, Yes.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
To hang up the phone on each other? Okay, ready, Yes,
the name of the show is Heavyweight Heavyweight, you get
it too one. Hello. Hello from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan
Goldstein and this is Heavyweight today's episode.
Speaker 6 (03:08):
But hello, hey Dad, Hi Johnny.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Hey, how you doing good? You good good good yum
tiv Shanapova oximea O.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
What's that meaning?
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I'm not sure. Oh, this is my father Buzz. I'm
calling him at his home in Montreal. And the reason
we're talking crazy talk is because it's young Kipper the
Jewish day of Atonement, which seems as good a day
as any to talk with him about forgiveness. So I
wanted to I wanted to ask you something and I
(03:45):
just wanted to gauge your interest. Yeah, how how would
you feel about paying your brother Sheldon a visit?
Speaker 6 (03:55):
I have no feelings by I'm not really interested. You're not. No.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
My father Buzz is eighty and his brother, Sheldon, his
only sibling, is eighty five, and for the past forty
they've pretty much been on the outs. My father lives
in Montreal and Sheldon lives in Florida, and the last
time they saw each other over twenty years ago was
at their mother's funeral when they had a fight over
(04:23):
the details of the arrangements. Since then, they've hardly spoken.
It worries me because there's not a lot of time left,
and I don't want my father to have regrets. When
the subject of his brother comes up, as it often
has over the years, my father feels competing things. He
grows angry or defensive, but other times he'll become sad
(04:44):
and remorseful. And it's the sorrow and the remorse that
I like best, because it's these feelings that I believe
speak to his better self, the self I want to encourage.
I'm not surprised that you're not jumping at the idea,
but I'm a little surprised at yours against the idea.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Yeah, time's passed. He hasn't shown much interest, so I'm
respecting that and I leave them alone.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
What he did do was he called you on your
eightieth birthday not so long ago, and you felt good.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
About it to him on his eightieth birthday.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
This kind of tit for tat accounting is what always
gets in the way. There's been a competition between the
brothers since I was a kid. I remember how in
my grandmother's small New York kitchen, Sheldon and Buzz got
into an argument about who could do the most push ups,
and the next thing I knew, my father was pulling
off his shirt and dropping to the kitchen floor in
his undershirt. My mother, not used to seeing the side
(05:41):
of him, stood over my father, flapping a dishtowel hysterically
while begging him to the point of tears to please stop.
Now you go, my father said, rising from the floor
when he was done. But Sheldon shook his head with
a smile. It was like he didn't even think my
father was worth the effort.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
You know what it is at this point with him,
I'll tell you what it is. I don't think it's
even anger. He's past anger, and he's past any feelings
of Animosity's he just doesn't care. Yeah, you know, that's apathy.
I mean, sometimes at least hate or love their emotions.
Apathy is nothing. Yeah, you know what. Johnny as a child,
(06:24):
even when I was ten, when I was nine and eight,
I was crazy about him. We had a great you know,
I loved him. He was the older brother.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
He was hello, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm listening.
Speaker 7 (06:36):
You know.
Speaker 6 (06:38):
I just looked up to him, and he had older friends.
Sometimes he'd take me along with him and he was good.
Somebody trying to somebody trying to call here, binging me here.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Don't you see, Buzz, it's father time? Who is bringing
you here? And Buzz loses track of time. Air Conditioners
remain boxed all through July, and expired coupons from the
mid nineties make plump his wallet, so I worry he'll
put off reaching out to Sheldon until it's too late.
(07:11):
The most complicated question, the one I keep coming back to,
is how did the bad blood begin? And there are
many versions. An ill fated trip to Montreal where Sheldon
felt slighted about having to stay in my father's basement,
an ill fated trip to New York where my father
felt slighted about having to stay in Sheldon's attic, rude
words spoken to each other's wives. In one version of
(07:33):
the story, Sheldon's refusal to bring a table to my
brists almost resulted in my being circumcised on an ironing board.
But in the version being told today, my father was
asked by Sheldon to pay more than his fair share
for their mother's funeral, and I.
Speaker 6 (07:48):
Said, you always working some kind of an angle, So
he got furious. He got furious, He started screaming into
the phone, go to hell, drop dead, bye bye bye.
Was that was how that ended? But I feel he's
the kind of guy that the gun he has angles
like that, you know he has angles. I always felt
(08:09):
I was on the up and up with him and
he wasn't with me.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
If you've got a stronger sense that he was interested
in seeing you, then would you yet?
Speaker 6 (08:19):
Yeah, you would be my I wouldn't stay at house though,
that's out of the question.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Okay, quick sidebar. Anytime I've ever raised the prospect of
visiting Sheldon, no matter how hypothetical the scenario, my father
always makes a point of insisting, how no matter what,
he would not stay in Sheldon's house, even if he
was invited to which I should point out he never is.
Speaker 6 (08:42):
I wouldn't stay it his house. How come you I
wouldn't stay there? I mean, not my thing?
Speaker 4 (08:48):
How come you always bring that up? I mean, normally,
when someone goes to visit someone that they haven't seen
in decades, don't stay at a hotel, you know.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
I would stay at a motel or somewhere near ATel.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
No, we'd get a place, you know, with an ice machine,
and uh, you know why you want.
Speaker 6 (09:05):
To you're interested in making a trip.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
I mean, I'm interested. Do you think that there's anything
to be gained in in seeing him?
Speaker 7 (09:19):
Hmm?
Speaker 6 (09:21):
I guess there's something then, you know, you share your
common experience and talk about the old days, and there
are things that only he and I can remember, you know, yeah,
you know you What you could do is you could
call him and see what what what? What his attitude is?
You know, it depends on you, know how how how
(09:43):
how you feel, what kind of receptions you get.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yeah, I mean I would. I would be happy to
do that.
Speaker 6 (09:50):
I like your initial suggestion that you call him, feel
him out, and see what he's like.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Okay, I didn't suggest that, but you you suggested that.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Yeah. I like that just because you'll give me an
honest you'll give me an honest reaction.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
I'm happy to do it. But I mean, what what
what are you looking for from? What do you want
to hear from him?
Speaker 6 (10:13):
I missed my brother. I would like to see him. Okay,
that's all. Okay, you understand, and you come back on
me with an honest evaluation.
Speaker 8 (10:33):
Hello, Sheldon, yes speaking Hi. That was quite a shock
getting a phone call, you said, Johnath. Yeah, my hearing
is not that great, okay, And when I heard the
first message, I'm saying, who the heck is that? I
don't know anybody by that name.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Sheldon now lives outside of Fort Lauderdale, but my few
memories of him are from when he lived in upstate
New York. I remember he lived in a trailer. I
remember that he worked at a local prison, that he
smoked cigars, that he looked a little like my father,
but was hunched, like the world was weighing down on him.
And he always wore this expression on his face that
seemed to say, you gotta be kidding me. You're keeping okay,
(11:19):
you're keeping occupied.
Speaker 8 (11:20):
Yeah, I read a lot. I going to gym. I
go shopping, you know, here and there, little things here
and there.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
And so you still go. How often you go to.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
The gym three times a week?
Speaker 6 (11:36):
Wow?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
And what kind of stuff do you do there?
Speaker 8 (11:39):
Well? I do him about twenty minutes of aerobics, uh huh,
and then I do a little weight training. I try
to flirt a little with the women there.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Oh yeah. My father also goes to the gym. That's
a part of his routine. Also, he was happy to
hear from you on his eightieth birthday.
Speaker 7 (12:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (12:07):
Well he didn't call me on my eighty.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Fifth though, tit meet tat Yeah, like, so you know,
maybe we could uh go out for dinner. I don't
know that kind of thing.
Speaker 8 (12:22):
Uh huh uh. Well, what what kind of time frame
are we talking about here?
Speaker 7 (12:40):
I don't know. Our lives have been much different. I
don't know how much we have to have in common anymore. Yeah,
we don't have. We don't have much in common anymore
except the fact that we're elderly and retired. Other than that,
(13:01):
I don't know what we have in common.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
You have your past in common?
Speaker 7 (13:07):
Yes, uh, I'll tell you honestly. I'm not a very
sentimental person, and I being a pragmatist, I take things
the way they are. I try not to dwell upon
the past, and I try not to take people the
(13:31):
way I remember them, but as they are.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Do you think that makes things easier?
Speaker 7 (13:40):
Makes things easier for me?
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Yeah? Do other people around you? Sometimes? Doesn't make it
harder for other people around you ever.
Speaker 7 (13:54):
To be honest with you, I've been in the last
few years. I've been a loner. You would basically almost
call me a recluse. I don't social eyes with many people,
and I really don't give a damn what anybody thinks. Yeah,
(14:19):
and contrary to popular believe, I like being alone by myself.
I get along with myself very well.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (14:32):
Look, I don't want to be rude. Yeah yeah, but
I want to go have my lunch.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's fine, Sheldon. I
appreciate your talking to me, and you would be amenable
to spending some time.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
Why not? We are brothers. I mean, we're not closer
or anything, but you know we're not going to have
a chance to see each other much in the future.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Yeah, is that anything that you think about?
Speaker 7 (15:11):
Not much more?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
And so I call my father back and let him
know that Sheldon is amenable. And because I know that
from my father, the days tend to pile up like
unboxed air conditioners. I have my mother get on the
phone to help nail down a firm travel.
Speaker 6 (15:29):
Date and Dad.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
He wants to go, if Dad wants to go, if
he wants.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
To go next weekend.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
We don't have to go on the weekend. We can
go during the week.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
Yeah. Comes, as you know, you caught me off. God,
how about it. I'll call you Wednesday or Thursday.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
How's that today's Monday? Or yeah, or even if you
feel like calling tomorrow, you can call me.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Yeah, okay, I'll probably I'll call you at the latest Thursday.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
To get the Thursday.
Speaker 6 (16:09):
At the latest, that's three.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Days from today. Yeah, okay, all right, you do what
you want to do.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
You call me, but I'll call you Thursday.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Coming up after the break Thursday, and so on Thursday,
possibly with a little nudging from my mother, Buzz agrees.
And then my father and I are off to Florida
to visit my uncle Sheldon.
Speaker 9 (16:36):
And then you have an address, Yeah, I do, okay.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
My dad and I meet up at the Fort Lauderdale Airport.
I flew from New York and my dad from Montreal.
My father's all dressed up, wearing a faux Swaede sports
jacket that I've never seen him in. We grab our
airport rental and prepare for the two hour drive to
Sheldon in the ninety degree heat. It's immediately made clear
that faux swayed might not have been the best fashioned choice.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
It's like we're on a safari.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
On the road to Sheldon's. My father will experience a
spectrum of feelings as we first set out, there's excitement.
Speaker 9 (17:13):
You know, my brother was funny in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I could laugh.
Speaker 10 (17:16):
We're gonna have laughed with him, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
He's a very funny man.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
A half an hour in and there's bitterness.
Speaker 10 (17:23):
We invited him to your Moments and he returned a
very cold card. Sorry, we will not be attending.
Speaker 9 (17:31):
You know, it's so mean, you.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 10 (17:34):
Even the writing.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
An hour in and how is Buzz feeling.
Speaker 6 (17:39):
I'm relaxed.
Speaker 9 (17:40):
I'm kind of old to get anxious, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What I mean.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Half an hour to Sheldon's a.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Little bit apprehensive.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
Yeah, ten minutes to Sheldon's and Buzz is feeling all right, Yeah,
he's feeling a little.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (17:58):
It's gonna be strange. Yeah, it's gonna be very strange.
I mean, the man is a stranger to me now,
and yet he's my brother.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
You understand.
Speaker 9 (18:06):
It's a very strange feeling.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (18:11):
I wonder if he's getting nervous, maybe because he's waiting
for us.
Speaker 11 (18:17):
Right, Yeah, yell sat, Oh it's hot, it's really hot.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yeah. Sheldon lives in the corner house on a quiet
suburban street ring the bell.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I guess is this his door?
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I'll double check, maybe because there is.
Speaker 10 (18:53):
Yeah, thank you, I smell the good smell of cigar.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
There I become a monk me.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
And after all the years and the worry and the dread,
things seemed to be going swimmingly. We sit down at
Sheldon's kitchen table and my father gets right into it.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Now, there's things I want to know. You said that
Rainy died.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
The dead are a good place to begin as a subject. There,
easily agreed upon and not likely to spark a fight.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
The uncle died. The uncle died. He was the youngest brother. Oh,
he died long ago.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
He died.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Oh you know who died? Offfman, real prick. Yeah, I
didn't know him that well, we didn't know. Yeah, nish shocking. Yeah,
he was fat. He was fat, red head, red head right, yeah, nish.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Remember Johnny.
Speaker 10 (19:54):
Johnny was a sex man.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Ye, john He would fuck a dog on the street,
if you sort of dog. He tried to the dog.
Can I get your guys a cold?
Speaker 10 (20:09):
I'd like a beer, olive beer.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Even though they're in their eighties, Sheldon and Buzz still
possessed voices and temperaments suited to shouting out Brooklyn tenement windows,
while my voice olive beer is best suited to asking
a waitress if there will be a sharing charge the flight.
I forgot about that.
Speaker 7 (20:29):
Sorry.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Case in point this is Sheldon accidentally swiping a portable
microphone receiver off the kitchen table and me trying to
smooth things over like this.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
It's annoying.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
No, he just put it in the in your pocket.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
There, just stake it off.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Over the next couple of days, my testes will flee
like frightened cockroaches upward, ascending to heights not seen since
the bar Mitzvah that Sheldon was not attending. And while
we're on the subject of testes, here's Sheldon reminiscing about
the time he was examined for a rupture by their
family doctor.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
Me and Wilie Rosen were joining the yep, say you
how to be tested for a rupture?
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Hey?
Speaker 5 (21:13):
I remember he put his hand under my balls. I
started left and so hot I pissed right.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
In his hand.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Over the years, I've seen my father in the role
of husband, uncle, and grandfather, but I've never really seen
him in the role of younger brother. How odd to
see it now? At eighty, he sits beside Sheldon with
this expression I've never seen on his face. It's wide eyed,
sweet and deferential. But as the day wears on, Sheldon
(21:48):
and Buzz begin to squabble over their memories, fighting over
every little detail.
Speaker 10 (21:53):
Remember to Hallabaloo he had with the die haad dye,
that heavy set.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Girl a manicurist. She was a head dying manicurist. No,
she was a head dying. Here's what happened. She went
over to Earth.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
They even argue over the death of their grandmother.
Speaker 10 (22:07):
I have found her body.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
I opened the door. No, I My mother was across
the street at Greenborough. I remember walk and I knew she
was dead.
Speaker 10 (22:16):
I never saw a dead body of my life, but
I knew she was dead.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Sure, so wait till you found her, or you found her.
Speaker 10 (22:24):
I remember looking in on a room to see how
she do. I said it was awfully crop.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Quite I found them, but let him No, I'm not
some credit.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
The whole afternoon is like this. Every subject, even their
dead grandmother, somehow becomes fodder for another pissing match. They're
burning up all this time with small talk when what
they need is some big talk. In particular, they need
to address a story that I know who It's a
great deal of meaning for my father. It took place
in nineteen thirty nine, on the day their mother left them.
(22:58):
I've only ever heard the story from my father, never
from Sheldon. I wanted to ask what you remember, what
your perspective?
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Well, I remember that time was one Pop was smacking
Iran and she ran out in the hole in her.
Speaker 10 (23:13):
Slip fighting in the hole.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
He was smack smacking around. She ran out. Yeah, So
what happened the next morning? In the next morning, Yeah,
they're look in a closet, her clothes were gone. She left.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Oh what happened after this? And my father's telling is
that his mother returned soon after she left with a
policeman in tow.
Speaker 10 (23:37):
And they came back to try to get you. They
wanted you to come back with them, and where were you?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
I was there, but she was. They were trying to
drag you out of the.
Speaker 10 (23:48):
House, and you weren't trying to grin Now, no, no,
I could say my father.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And grandmother mother.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
This is the point of the story. For my father.
It proves once and for all how his mother loved
Sheldon more than she loved him. Sheldon didn't move out
with her, and after a year their mother returned earned
and together, Buzz and Sheldon grew up under the same
roof in the same bedroom, often sleeping under the same blanket,
(24:17):
each knowing who the mother had chosen, and each having
to do their best to carry on and live life
with the burden of that knowledge. A couple times during
the day I ask them why they haven't spoken in
(24:38):
so long, and they both insist, maybe out of embarrassment,
that they do talk, just not often. But it isn't true.
In fact, my father learned of Sheldon's wife's death many
years after the fact, and then only from me. Sheldon's
daughter got in touch through Facebook and we made a
phone date where she caught me up on her life
(24:59):
in Sheldon's and a few nights later, while over at
my parents for dinner, I told my father of his
sister in law's death. There was a terrible look that
fell across his face, one of sadness, but something else too,
maybe shock over just how far he and Sheldon had drifted.
I found out about Judy about her death.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Who your wife? I didn't know about it either until
you told me.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Yeah, I didn't I tell you.
Speaker 7 (25:30):
Didn't know about it.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
No, we didn't know. We didn't know.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
She was sick about two years. Judy, well, when she
got the diagnosis, she was already stage four. What did
I know about cancer? So the surgeon, so he said, So,
I said, well, doc, how did the surgery go? I
(25:59):
always show you went very well? But the kansas in
her living now spread. I said, it's in. No, I
said what. And on top of that, I'm driving home,
I'm all fucked up, and I'm space style and my
(26:20):
driver windows open, and some kids pull up alongside me,
a flip a lit cigarette into my car.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
You know where I usually eat? I come in and
buy myself by the ball. They got a waitress, Stair
always waits on me.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
He takes cook care for dinner. Sheldon takes us to
a local outback steakhouse. As people walk by, he provides
a running commentary of an elderly couple.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Don't get like that couple. Whatever you did, it's time.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
For the execution of an overweight couple.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Fat people are fat today.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
It's as though he's sharpening his wit, readying it for
the main event. Teasing my dad about Canada.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
I don't know how you could take Canada on your wife.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So he got nice. Neighbor's nice. It's okay.
Speaker 10 (27:23):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
I wasn't gonna have to say, you're living in the
same place for am.
Speaker 10 (27:28):
Oh, about thirty five, thirty eight years, something like that.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I'm happy here. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
For my father, I know this is a touchy subject,
believing as he always has, that Sheldon looks down on
him for the dinkiness of his Canadian life and home.
It's like a constant reminder of just who is second best. Later,
my father will repeat Sheldon's words. You're still living in
that same place, He'll say, for how many years? But
(27:56):
just then I watch my father clench and unclench his
jaw as he does when he is brooding. I know
he's trying to take the high road, trying not to
ruin the evening, what.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Two hundred dollars and thirty cents.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Sheldon invites us back to his place for cookies, but
my father says he isn't up for it, thank you,
and I'll get cold. As we walk through the restaurant
parking lot to the car, my father is silent. I
find myself feeling protective of him. After midnight, lying awake
(28:33):
in our hotel, my father insisted we stay at one.
I lay in bed thinking about that day in nineteen
thirty nine when my grandmother came back for Sheldon, not
my father. For my father, not only did it push
him away from Sheldon, making him feel jealous and resentful,
but it also cast a shadow over the rest of
his life, causing him to always feel passed over. He's
(28:55):
mellowed with age, but as a kid, I saw it
come out in all kinds of ways, always sensitive to slights,
ready for a fight at the smallest perceived defense. I
wonder if there's a different way for my father to
see things. If there is is, the only living person
in this world who can help is Sheldon. When their
mom left, Sheldon was nine, my father five. Sheldon would
(29:18):
have understood a lot more than my father. Yesterday, Buzz
and Sheldon talked like a couple of kids who used
to play stickball in the old neighborhood. Today, if me
and my big fat meddling Yap have any sway, they'll
have a chance to talk as men, as brothers, even
because if not. Now when.
Speaker 10 (29:42):
Day two, this is a damn good cigar he sent
me well, Dominica Republic. They make a damn good cigar
in Dominical Republic.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Despite the difficulties of last night, the coin is flipped
back to the good side. Sheldon offers my father a cigar,
and with the cigar some cigar talk, some pretty foul
cigar talk.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
We'll ride Mount Queen's Boulevard. Johnny's in the back seat
with the who. He's got his naked ass up in
the and he's well. The funny thing, we had to
stop for a light and there's a truck driver sitting
in the cab bump high.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
So if you guys missed each other, what do you
miss each other?
Speaker 6 (30:31):
You know?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
He asked the weirdest question. What is he abroad? No?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I mean, I don't know. That's you know, eager to
prove to my uncle Sheldon that in spite of the
fact I'm wearing my wife's travel deodorant, I am indeed
not abroad. I allow them to return to more pressing matters.
They're prostates, that said Jesus.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
He says, your prestate feels like the moon craters in there.
He said, I said, thank you, doctor, complimenting me.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
So if I could steer this away from the prostrates,
and so my father said that it's significant to him
to have what do you say?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I agree with whatever he said?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
But what about you?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I said, I agree with whatever he said. Do you
want to written?
Speaker 10 (31:18):
I know.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I'm happy.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
It feels like I'm getting a taste of what growing
up with Sheldon might have been like. So again I
make my move. So I have some questions just about
because the stories that I know from my father. But
I'm curious what your take is because you were older.
Do you remember what was going on when your mom
(31:44):
when your mother left? Originally like what?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
What? Why?
Speaker 4 (31:48):
And what was going on?
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Didn't you cover this ground before yesterday?
Speaker 4 (31:53):
But from my father's perspective, the way I understood it
was always you were the favorite. Did you did you
feel that way? At this point, Sheldon's face suddenly softens.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I always felt that I got the short end of
the stick.
Speaker 10 (32:09):
You were you were kind of a favorite with my mom.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
Yeah, maybe with mom because maybe temperamentally we were closer
than I was with my father. My father never gave
me spit. Did you ever get any money from my father?
I can't remember.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
You never got a line.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Now I can't remember you never one time I sprained
my ankle so bad.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That was that was terrible.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
I laid in that bed my ankle. He was He
says to me, you lazy bum. Yeah, man, he went
off on me that time.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
He took Sheldon once.
Speaker 10 (32:51):
Sheldon happened to say the word fuck.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
He came in with that fucking strap, swinging with.
Speaker 10 (33:00):
The bucket, and you know, I can understand it, leaving
a feeling of resentment and dislike.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Hey, yeah, that was his way of.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
Communicating with us. Smack smack, and then what a way?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah? Was he easier on you? You think it wasn't that?
Speaker 10 (33:21):
But he was tough on Sheldon.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Was I know you were closer to him than I was.
A lot of things that went on you didn't understand really.
Speaker 10 (33:31):
Well it did going on, So you had a different take.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Well are you surprised.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
By But I was a kid. I didn't understand it.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
But you didn't know that Sheldon was getting it so bad.
In Buzz's telling, their father was always more or less benign,
childish figure, incapable of expressing his feelings and so given
to temper tantrums. For Buzz, it was their mother who
was the manipulator, the woman who played the brothers off
each other. But hearing Sheldon's take, it sounds like maybe
(34:01):
their mother didn't come to take Sheldon because she loved
him best, but simply because he needed more protecting from
their father. For the first time during our trip, I
can see my father considering Sheldon's point of view, actually
(34:22):
taking it in. I know it's intense for him because
he can't even meet Sheldon's eyes. Instead, he looks at
me addresses his comments to me.
Speaker 10 (34:32):
You know, it said that my father had such a
negative impact on him, you know, just.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Awful because he had so much going for me. He
was a wonderful son.
Speaker 10 (34:41):
He worked hard, he was a good boy.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
He went to school talking like I'm a failure in life. No,
you aren't a fail that I'm saying. You weren't a faide.
Speaker 10 (34:52):
But all I'm saying is that emotionally he left an
impact on you.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
It took a long time for me to get out
of that emotion.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
And now I'm at peace to it myself.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
I can talk about him and laugh about it. Now
I want peace quiet. I'm happy living by myself.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Are you lonely?
Speaker 10 (35:18):
Sheldon O?
Speaker 4 (35:26):
The last time my father saw my grandfather in full health.
My dad was visiting from Canada. My grandfather asked my
father to drive him to the cemetery to visit his parents' grave,
and once there, my grandfather wept inconsolably. Later that day
he would succumb to a stroke and shortly after be
moved to a nursing home. With Sheldon being more local,
(35:47):
the burden of my grandfather's care fell mainly to Sheldon.
It seems like a lot of the family's burdens fell
to Sheldon.
Speaker 10 (35:55):
They put a lot of the responsibility on him, that
my dad should have been taking that responsibility, and he
shoulded that.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Well, who is going to take car of you? Who's
going to take you to school?
Speaker 6 (36:08):
Meet ya?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I remember one time, hours later or something, you stood
outside that cry. I said, mosy, I'm here, I'm here.
He was good to meet at times me, you know,
just you were.
Speaker 9 (36:24):
My older brother used to knock the ship out of
me sometimes, but you know that's the way it is
with brothers.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Well, yeah, I was good in some way some way
that I was mean.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Who's who was not? Who's not who is not?
Speaker 4 (36:39):
So if you feel like you were compelled to see
each other now because you knew that. You know it's
an hour and never kind of thing. Then it means
that it was important to you both right to see
each other.
Speaker 10 (36:54):
You want to take that easy answer, yes, yes, because
we're not getting any younger. I mean, what's what's down
the road.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I'm eighty he's eighty five. I mean because the there's.
Speaker 10 (37:09):
A lot of water under the bridge, and we want
to close that bridge. Now, I want to feel easy. Now,
I want to say, now he's going to be eighty six,
I want to call him on his birthday and say
happy birthday to him. Now, I'm not going to stand
any fucking ceremonies anymore.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
As my father speaks, as per his brother's example, dropping
f bombs like he's in a Guy Ritchie film, Sheldon
keeps his arms crossed and his eyes shut tight. He's
quiet for several seconds, and then he reaches out to
pet his cat.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Should I leave you a cat in my will if anything.
Speaker 10 (37:39):
Happen, if anything out, I'll take care of the cat.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
I'll take care of the cat.
Speaker 10 (37:45):
I'm happy I can't to see you.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
That I am. I'm happy it can't here. That's good,
very good.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Why I want to buy a house.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
When it's time to leave, Sheldon walks us outside, but
before we get into the rental, he points across the
lawn to his neighbor's house. He tells my father that
it's for sale, and then he tells him the asking price,
and my father says that doesn't sound bad at all.
And Sheldon says that, what with Canada being so bloody cold,
my father should consider moving to Florida, and my father
(38:21):
says maybe he will. They don't get too emotional, they
don't even hug it by, They just shake hands. And
with that, it feels like Buzz has forgiven Sheldon, and
Sheldon has forgiven Buzz.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
All right, you take care of the bridge, sank trip
both this, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, thank you, we'll speak.
Speaker 10 (38:44):
We'll speak.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Turn right on Northwest, Man for drawing. Oh my god,
it feels so different now.
Speaker 10 (38:58):
You know that this has taking a lot off my
shoulders idea.
Speaker 6 (39:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
As we ride to the airport, my father says that
the thought of Sheldon all alone in that house with
just a cat makes him sad. Do you really think
he isn't lonely, my father asks. I assure him that
Sheldon seems okay with being alone. But my father doesn't
seem so sure. After all these years, the burden of
having lost his brother has been replaced by a new burden,
(39:27):
one that might be heavier to bear. Now that the
(40:10):
furnitures returned to its goodwill.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
Home, now that the last month's raft is scheming.
Speaker 7 (40:23):
With the damage, the possum take this moment to do so.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
If we ment, If we talk.
Speaker 6 (40:34):
Were felt around for.
Speaker 8 (40:35):
Far too.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
From the thaus it accidentally Talk.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me Jonathan Goldstein. This
episode was also produced by Wendy Dore, Chris Neary, and
Khalila Holt, editing by Alex Bloomberg and Peter Clowney. Special
thanks to Caitlin Kenny, Starle Kine and Rachel Ward. The
show was mixed by Hailey Shaw. Music in this episode
by Christine Fellows, with additional music and ad music by
Hailey Shaw. Our theme song is by The Weaker Bands,
(41:07):
courtesy of Epitaph Records. A version of the story appeared
on This American Life, and we had a lot of
help from the folks there, Ira Glass, Julie Snyder, Jonathan
men Heavar, Sean Cole, and Robin Semeon a very special
thanks to Emily Condons. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight.
We'll have a new episode next week.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
We used to call him Mitchie, little Bitchy, the older brother,
the oldest one.
Speaker 6 (41:42):
He was.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Hey, well lucky we turned out as good as we did.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, Hello Revisionist History listeners. We're having a very exciting
week here at Pushkin. You know that I'm Canadian, right,
We actually fly a big maple leaf flag here at
Pushkin HQ. Well, this week we added another Canadian. The
great Jonathan Goldstein, native of Quebec, has brought his acclaimed
narrative series Heavyweight to the Pushkin Network.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh Canada, our home and native land, true patrid love,
in all our hearts command.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Jonathan and the Heavyweight team represent everything we believe in
here at Pushkin. The power of storytelling, the value of
intelligence and emotion, the belief that Canadians can and should
dominate all aspects of American culture. Heavyweight examines personal histories
and resentments. It tries to heal old wounds, and then
the process reminds us of our shared humanity. Yes, it's
(01:14):
that good. We're dropping the first ever episode here in
the feed about Jonathan's quest to reconcile his father with
his estranged brother Buzz Enjoy And there is much, much,
much more to come. And if you want to listen
to more Heavyweight, which I'm sure you do, check out
the show notes for the Revisionist History team's favorite episodes.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yell from Gimblet Media. This is Jonathan Goldstein. Your old
pal is that.
Speaker 5 (01:47):
Was called Gimblet Gimblet Media.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
That's correct.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
It sounds like giblets, the inside of a chicken, like
all the innerds.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Well, everybody loves giblet.
Speaker 6 (01:54):
You Oh shit, they're my kids.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Hey guys, I'm up here. Do you know what my
new podcast is about.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
I know, I don't know anything about it.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Each week, I travel into people's past to help them
repair something that's been troubling them. I'm sort of like
a therapist.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Like a therapist.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
So yeah, do you find out? Do you find that funny?
I supportive? That's the laughter of support.
Speaker 6 (02:23):
I think it's great.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I think it's great. Do you have any questions for
me about what my show is and what it's going
to be? Like, what's the name of your show?
Speaker 6 (02:33):
What's the name of your show?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yes, we're gonna go now, but Johnson's just about tell
me the name of his new show.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
As soon as he tells me, I'm going to bang
down on him in five Remember to do that, Yes.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
To hang up the phone on each other? Okay, ready, Yes,
the name of the show is Heavyweight Heavyweight, you get
it too one. Hello. Hello from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan
Goldstein and this is Heavyweight today's episode.
Speaker 6 (03:08):
But hello, hey Dad, Hi Johnny.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Hey, how you doing good? You good good good yum
tiv Shanapova oximea O.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
What's that meaning?
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I'm not sure. Oh, this is my father Buzz. I'm
calling him at his home in Montreal. And the reason
we're talking crazy talk is because it's young Kipper the
Jewish day of Atonement, which seems as good a day
as any to talk with him about forgiveness. So I
wanted to I wanted to ask you something and I
(03:45):
just wanted to gauge your interest. Yeah, how how would
you feel about paying your brother Sheldon a visit?
Speaker 6 (03:55):
I have no feelings by I'm not really interested. You're not. No.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
My father Buzz is eighty and his brother, Sheldon, his
only sibling, is eighty five, and for the past forty
they've pretty much been on the outs. My father lives
in Montreal and Sheldon lives in Florida, and the last
time they saw each other over twenty years ago was
at their mother's funeral when they had a fight over
(04:23):
the details of the arrangements. Since then, they've hardly spoken.
It worries me because there's not a lot of time left,
and I don't want my father to have regrets. When
the subject of his brother comes up, as it often
has over the years, my father feels competing things. He
grows angry or defensive, but other times he'll become sad
(04:44):
and remorseful. And it's the sorrow and the remorse that
I like best, because it's these feelings that I believe
speak to his better self, the self I want to encourage.
I'm not surprised that you're not jumping at the idea,
but I'm a little surprised at yours against the idea.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Yeah, time's passed. He hasn't shown much interest, so I'm
respecting that and I leave them alone.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
What he did do was he called you on your
eightieth birthday not so long ago, and you felt good.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
About it to him on his eightieth birthday.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
This kind of tit for tat accounting is what always
gets in the way. There's been a competition between the
brothers since I was a kid. I remember how in
my grandmother's small New York kitchen, Sheldon and Buzz got
into an argument about who could do the most push ups,
and the next thing I knew, my father was pulling
off his shirt and dropping to the kitchen floor in
his undershirt. My mother, not used to seeing the side
(05:41):
of him, stood over my father, flapping a dishtowel hysterically
while begging him to the point of tears to please stop.
Now you go, my father said, rising from the floor
when he was done. But Sheldon shook his head with
a smile. It was like he didn't even think my
father was worth the effort.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
You know what it is at this point with him,
I'll tell you what it is. I don't think it's
even anger. He's past anger, and he's past any feelings
of Animosity's he just doesn't care. Yeah, you know, that's apathy.
I mean, sometimes at least hate or love their emotions.
Apathy is nothing. Yeah, you know what. Johnny as a child,
(06:24):
even when I was ten, when I was nine and eight,
I was crazy about him. We had a great you know,
I loved him. He was the older brother.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
He was hello, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm listening.
Speaker 7 (06:36):
You know.
Speaker 6 (06:38):
I just looked up to him, and he had older friends.
Sometimes he'd take me along with him and he was good.
Somebody trying to somebody trying to call here, binging me here.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Don't you see, Buzz, it's father time? Who is bringing
you here? And Buzz loses track of time. Air Conditioners
remain boxed all through July, and expired coupons from the
mid nineties make plump his wallet, so I worry he'll
put off reaching out to Sheldon until it's too late.
(07:11):
The most complicated question, the one I keep coming back to,
is how did the bad blood begin? And there are
many versions. An ill fated trip to Montreal where Sheldon
felt slighted about having to stay in my father's basement,
an ill fated trip to New York where my father
felt slighted about having to stay in Sheldon's attic, rude
words spoken to each other's wives. In one version of
(07:33):
the story, Sheldon's refusal to bring a table to my
brists almost resulted in my being circumcised on an ironing board.
But in the version being told today, my father was
asked by Sheldon to pay more than his fair share
for their mother's funeral, and I.
Speaker 6 (07:48):
Said, you always working some kind of an angle, So
he got furious. He got furious, He started screaming into
the phone, go to hell, drop dead, bye bye bye.
Was that was how that ended? But I feel he's
the kind of guy that the gun he has angles
like that, you know he has angles. I always felt
(08:09):
I was on the up and up with him and
he wasn't with me.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
If you've got a stronger sense that he was interested
in seeing you, then would you yet?
Speaker 6 (08:19):
Yeah, you would be my I wouldn't stay at house though,
that's out of the question.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Okay, quick sidebar. Anytime I've ever raised the prospect of
visiting Sheldon, no matter how hypothetical the scenario, my father
always makes a point of insisting, how no matter what,
he would not stay in Sheldon's house, even if he
was invited to which I should point out he never is.
Speaker 6 (08:42):
I wouldn't stay it his house. How come you I
wouldn't stay there? I mean, not my thing?
Speaker 4 (08:48):
How come you always bring that up? I mean, normally,
when someone goes to visit someone that they haven't seen
in decades, don't stay at a hotel, you know.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
I would stay at a motel or somewhere near ATel.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
No, we'd get a place, you know, with an ice machine,
and uh, you know why you want.
Speaker 6 (09:05):
To you're interested in making a trip.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
I mean, I'm interested. Do you think that there's anything
to be gained in in seeing him?
Speaker 7 (09:19):
Hmm?
Speaker 6 (09:21):
I guess there's something then, you know, you share your
common experience and talk about the old days, and there
are things that only he and I can remember, you know, yeah,
you know you What you could do is you could
call him and see what what what? What his attitude is?
You know, it depends on you, know how how how
(09:43):
how you feel, what kind of receptions you get.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yeah, I mean I would. I would be happy to
do that.
Speaker 6 (09:50):
I like your initial suggestion that you call him, feel
him out, and see what he's like.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Okay, I didn't suggest that, but you you suggested that.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Yeah. I like that just because you'll give me an
honest you'll give me an honest reaction.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
I'm happy to do it. But I mean, what what
what are you looking for from? What do you want
to hear from him?
Speaker 6 (10:13):
I missed my brother. I would like to see him. Okay,
that's all. Okay, you understand, and you come back on
me with an honest evaluation.
Speaker 8 (10:33):
Hello, Sheldon, yes speaking Hi. That was quite a shock
getting a phone call, you said, Johnath. Yeah, my hearing
is not that great, okay, And when I heard the
first message, I'm saying, who the heck is that? I
don't know anybody by that name.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Sheldon now lives outside of Fort Lauderdale, but my few
memories of him are from when he lived in upstate
New York. I remember he lived in a trailer. I
remember that he worked at a local prison, that he
smoked cigars, that he looked a little like my father,
but was hunched, like the world was weighing down on him.
And he always wore this expression on his face that
seemed to say, you gotta be kidding me. You're keeping okay,
(11:19):
you're keeping occupied.
Speaker 8 (11:20):
Yeah, I read a lot. I going to gym. I
go shopping, you know, here and there, little things here
and there.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
And so you still go. How often you go to.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
The gym three times a week?
Speaker 6 (11:36):
Wow?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
And what kind of stuff do you do there?
Speaker 8 (11:39):
Well? I do him about twenty minutes of aerobics, uh huh,
and then I do a little weight training. I try
to flirt a little with the women there.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Oh yeah. My father also goes to the gym. That's
a part of his routine. Also, he was happy to
hear from you on his eightieth birthday.
Speaker 7 (12:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (12:07):
Well he didn't call me on my eighty.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Fifth though, tit meet tat Yeah, like, so you know,
maybe we could uh go out for dinner. I don't
know that kind of thing.
Speaker 8 (12:22):
Uh huh uh. Well, what what kind of time frame
are we talking about here?
Speaker 7 (12:40):
I don't know. Our lives have been much different. I
don't know how much we have to have in common anymore. Yeah,
we don't have. We don't have much in common anymore
except the fact that we're elderly and retired. Other than that,
(13:01):
I don't know what we have in common.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
You have your past in common?
Speaker 7 (13:07):
Yes, uh, I'll tell you honestly. I'm not a very
sentimental person, and I being a pragmatist, I take things
the way they are. I try not to dwell upon
the past, and I try not to take people the
(13:31):
way I remember them, but as they are.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Do you think that makes things easier?
Speaker 7 (13:40):
Makes things easier for me?
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Yeah? Do other people around you? Sometimes? Doesn't make it
harder for other people around you ever.
Speaker 7 (13:54):
To be honest with you, I've been in the last
few years. I've been a loner. You would basically almost
call me a recluse. I don't social eyes with many people,
and I really don't give a damn what anybody thinks. Yeah,
(14:19):
and contrary to popular believe, I like being alone by myself.
I get along with myself very well.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (14:32):
Look, I don't want to be rude. Yeah yeah, but
I want to go have my lunch.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's fine, Sheldon. I
appreciate your talking to me, and you would be amenable
to spending some time.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
Why not? We are brothers. I mean, we're not closer
or anything, but you know we're not going to have
a chance to see each other much in the future.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Yeah, is that anything that you think about?
Speaker 7 (15:11):
Not much more?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
And so I call my father back and let him
know that Sheldon is amenable. And because I know that
from my father, the days tend to pile up like
unboxed air conditioners. I have my mother get on the
phone to help nail down a firm travel.
Speaker 6 (15:29):
Date and Dad.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
He wants to go, if Dad wants to go, if
he wants.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
To go next weekend.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
We don't have to go on the weekend. We can
go during the week.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
Yeah. Comes, as you know, you caught me off. God,
how about it. I'll call you Wednesday or Thursday.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
How's that today's Monday? Or yeah, or even if you
feel like calling tomorrow, you can call me.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Yeah, okay, I'll probably I'll call you at the latest Thursday.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
To get the Thursday.
Speaker 6 (16:09):
At the latest, that's three.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Days from today. Yeah, okay, all right, you do what
you want to do.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
You call me, but I'll call you Thursday.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Coming up after the break Thursday, and so on Thursday,
possibly with a little nudging from my mother, Buzz agrees.
And then my father and I are off to Florida
to visit my uncle Sheldon.
Speaker 9 (16:36):
And then you have an address, Yeah, I do, okay.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
My dad and I meet up at the Fort Lauderdale Airport.
I flew from New York and my dad from Montreal.
My father's all dressed up, wearing a faux Swaede sports
jacket that I've never seen him in. We grab our
airport rental and prepare for the two hour drive to
Sheldon in the ninety degree heat. It's immediately made clear
that faux swayed might not have been the best fashioned choice.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
It's like we're on a safari.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
On the road to Sheldon's. My father will experience a
spectrum of feelings as we first set out, there's excitement.
Speaker 9 (17:13):
You know, my brother was funny in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I could laugh.
Speaker 10 (17:16):
We're gonna have laughed with him, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
He's a very funny man.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
A half an hour in and there's bitterness.
Speaker 10 (17:23):
We invited him to your Moments and he returned a
very cold card. Sorry, we will not be attending.
Speaker 9 (17:31):
You know, it's so mean, you.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 10 (17:34):
Even the writing.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
An hour in and how is Buzz feeling.
Speaker 6 (17:39):
I'm relaxed.
Speaker 9 (17:40):
I'm kind of old to get anxious, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What I mean.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Half an hour to Sheldon's a.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Little bit apprehensive.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
Yeah, ten minutes to Sheldon's and Buzz is feeling all right, Yeah,
he's feeling a little.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (17:58):
It's gonna be strange. Yeah, it's gonna be very strange.
I mean, the man is a stranger to me now,
and yet he's my brother.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
You understand.
Speaker 9 (18:06):
It's a very strange feeling.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (18:11):
I wonder if he's getting nervous, maybe because he's waiting
for us.
Speaker 11 (18:17):
Right, Yeah, yell sat, Oh it's hot, it's really hot.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yeah. Sheldon lives in the corner house on a quiet
suburban street ring the bell.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I guess is this his door?
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I'll double check, maybe because there is.
Speaker 10 (18:53):
Yeah, thank you, I smell the good smell of cigar.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
There I become a monk me.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
And after all the years and the worry and the dread,
things seemed to be going swimmingly. We sit down at
Sheldon's kitchen table and my father gets right into it.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Now, there's things I want to know. You said that
Rainy died.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
The dead are a good place to begin as a subject. There,
easily agreed upon and not likely to spark a fight.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
The uncle died. The uncle died. He was the youngest brother. Oh,
he died long ago.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
He died.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Oh you know who died? Offfman, real prick. Yeah, I
didn't know him that well, we didn't know. Yeah, nish shocking. Yeah,
he was fat. He was fat, red head, red head right, yeah, nish.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Remember Johnny.
Speaker 10 (19:54):
Johnny was a sex man.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Ye, john He would fuck a dog on the street,
if you sort of dog. He tried to the dog.
Can I get your guys a cold?
Speaker 10 (20:09):
I'd like a beer, olive beer.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Even though they're in their eighties, Sheldon and Buzz still
possessed voices and temperaments suited to shouting out Brooklyn tenement windows,
while my voice olive beer is best suited to asking
a waitress if there will be a sharing charge the flight.
I forgot about that.
Speaker 7 (20:29):
Sorry.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Case in point this is Sheldon accidentally swiping a portable
microphone receiver off the kitchen table and me trying to
smooth things over like this.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
It's annoying.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
No, he just put it in the in your pocket.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
There, just stake it off.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Over the next couple of days, my testes will flee
like frightened cockroaches upward, ascending to heights not seen since
the bar Mitzvah that Sheldon was not attending. And while
we're on the subject of testes, here's Sheldon reminiscing about
the time he was examined for a rupture by their
family doctor.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
Me and Wilie Rosen were joining the yep, say you
how to be tested for a rupture?
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Hey?
Speaker 5 (21:13):
I remember he put his hand under my balls. I
started left and so hot I pissed right.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
In his hand.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Over the years, I've seen my father in the role
of husband, uncle, and grandfather, but I've never really seen
him in the role of younger brother. How odd to
see it now? At eighty, he sits beside Sheldon with
this expression I've never seen on his face. It's wide eyed,
sweet and deferential. But as the day wears on, Sheldon
(21:48):
and Buzz begin to squabble over their memories, fighting over
every little detail.
Speaker 10 (21:53):
Remember to Hallabaloo he had with the die haad dye,
that heavy set.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Girl a manicurist. She was a head dying manicurist. No,
she was a head dying. Here's what happened. She went
over to Earth.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
They even argue over the death of their grandmother.
Speaker 10 (22:07):
I have found her body.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
I opened the door. No, I My mother was across
the street at Greenborough. I remember walk and I knew she
was dead.
Speaker 10 (22:16):
I never saw a dead body of my life, but
I knew she was dead.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Sure, so wait till you found her, or you found her.
Speaker 10 (22:24):
I remember looking in on a room to see how
she do. I said it was awfully crop.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Quite I found them, but let him No, I'm not
some credit.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
The whole afternoon is like this. Every subject, even their
dead grandmother, somehow becomes fodder for another pissing match. They're
burning up all this time with small talk when what
they need is some big talk. In particular, they need
to address a story that I know who It's a
great deal of meaning for my father. It took place
in nineteen thirty nine, on the day their mother left them.
(22:58):
I've only ever heard the story from my father, never
from Sheldon. I wanted to ask what you remember, what
your perspective?
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Well, I remember that time was one Pop was smacking
Iran and she ran out in the hole in her.
Speaker 10 (23:13):
Slip fighting in the hole.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
He was smack smacking around. She ran out. Yeah, So
what happened the next morning? In the next morning, Yeah,
they're look in a closet, her clothes were gone. She left.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Oh what happened after this? And my father's telling is
that his mother returned soon after she left with a
policeman in tow.
Speaker 10 (23:37):
And they came back to try to get you. They
wanted you to come back with them, and where were you?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
I was there, but she was. They were trying to
drag you out of the.
Speaker 10 (23:48):
House, and you weren't trying to grin Now, no, no,
I could say my father.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And grandmother mother.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
This is the point of the story. For my father.
It proves once and for all how his mother loved
Sheldon more than she loved him. Sheldon didn't move out
with her, and after a year their mother returned earned
and together, Buzz and Sheldon grew up under the same
roof in the same bedroom, often sleeping under the same blanket,
(24:17):
each knowing who the mother had chosen, and each having
to do their best to carry on and live life
with the burden of that knowledge. A couple times during
the day I ask them why they haven't spoken in
(24:38):
so long, and they both insist, maybe out of embarrassment,
that they do talk, just not often. But it isn't true.
In fact, my father learned of Sheldon's wife's death many
years after the fact, and then only from me. Sheldon's
daughter got in touch through Facebook and we made a
phone date where she caught me up on her life
(24:59):
in Sheldon's and a few nights later, while over at
my parents for dinner, I told my father of his
sister in law's death. There was a terrible look that
fell across his face, one of sadness, but something else too,
maybe shock over just how far he and Sheldon had drifted.
I found out about Judy about her death.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Who your wife? I didn't know about it either until
you told me.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Yeah, I didn't I tell you.
Speaker 7 (25:30):
Didn't know about it.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
No, we didn't know. We didn't know.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
She was sick about two years. Judy, well, when she
got the diagnosis, she was already stage four. What did
I know about cancer? So the surgeon, so he said, So,
I said, well, doc, how did the surgery go? I
(25:59):
always show you went very well? But the kansas in
her living now spread. I said, it's in. No, I
said what. And on top of that, I'm driving home,
I'm all fucked up, and I'm space style and my
(26:20):
driver windows open, and some kids pull up alongside me,
a flip a lit cigarette into my car.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
You know where I usually eat? I come in and
buy myself by the ball. They got a waitress, Stair
always waits on me.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
He takes cook care for dinner. Sheldon takes us to
a local outback steakhouse. As people walk by, he provides
a running commentary of an elderly couple.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Don't get like that couple. Whatever you did, it's time.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
For the execution of an overweight couple.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Fat people are fat today.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
It's as though he's sharpening his wit, readying it for
the main event. Teasing my dad about Canada.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
I don't know how you could take Canada on your wife.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So he got nice. Neighbor's nice. It's okay.
Speaker 10 (27:23):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
I wasn't gonna have to say, you're living in the
same place for am.
Speaker 10 (27:28):
Oh, about thirty five, thirty eight years, something like that.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I'm happy here. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
For my father, I know this is a touchy subject,
believing as he always has, that Sheldon looks down on
him for the dinkiness of his Canadian life and home.
It's like a constant reminder of just who is second best. Later,
my father will repeat Sheldon's words. You're still living in
that same place, He'll say, for how many years? But
(27:56):
just then I watch my father clench and unclench his
jaw as he does when he is brooding. I know
he's trying to take the high road, trying not to
ruin the evening, what.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Two hundred dollars and thirty cents.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Sheldon invites us back to his place for cookies, but
my father says he isn't up for it, thank you,
and I'll get cold. As we walk through the restaurant
parking lot to the car, my father is silent. I
find myself feeling protective of him. After midnight, lying awake
(28:33):
in our hotel, my father insisted we stay at one.
I lay in bed thinking about that day in nineteen
thirty nine when my grandmother came back for Sheldon, not
my father. For my father, not only did it push
him away from Sheldon, making him feel jealous and resentful,
but it also cast a shadow over the rest of
his life, causing him to always feel passed over. He's
(28:55):
mellowed with age, but as a kid, I saw it
come out in all kinds of ways, always sensitive to slights,
ready for a fight at the smallest perceived defense. I
wonder if there's a different way for my father to
see things. If there is is, the only living person
in this world who can help is Sheldon. When their
mom left, Sheldon was nine, my father five. Sheldon would
(29:18):
have understood a lot more than my father. Yesterday, Buzz
and Sheldon talked like a couple of kids who used
to play stickball in the old neighborhood. Today, if me
and my big fat meddling Yap have any sway, they'll
have a chance to talk as men, as brothers, even
because if not. Now when.
Speaker 10 (29:42):
Day two, this is a damn good cigar he sent
me well, Dominica Republic. They make a damn good cigar
in Dominical Republic.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Despite the difficulties of last night, the coin is flipped
back to the good side. Sheldon offers my father a cigar,
and with the cigar some cigar talk, some pretty foul
cigar talk.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
We'll ride Mount Queen's Boulevard. Johnny's in the back seat
with the who. He's got his naked ass up in
the and he's well. The funny thing, we had to
stop for a light and there's a truck driver sitting
in the cab bump high.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
So if you guys missed each other, what do you
miss each other?
Speaker 6 (30:31):
You know?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
He asked the weirdest question. What is he abroad? No?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I mean, I don't know. That's you know, eager to
prove to my uncle Sheldon that in spite of the
fact I'm wearing my wife's travel deodorant, I am indeed
not abroad. I allow them to return to more pressing matters.
They're prostates, that said Jesus.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
He says, your prestate feels like the moon craters in there.
He said, I said, thank you, doctor, complimenting me.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
So if I could steer this away from the prostrates,
and so my father said that it's significant to him
to have what do you say?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I agree with whatever he said?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
But what about you?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I said, I agree with whatever he said. Do you
want to written?
Speaker 10 (31:18):
I know.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I'm happy.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
It feels like I'm getting a taste of what growing
up with Sheldon might have been like. So again I
make my move. So I have some questions just about
because the stories that I know from my father. But
I'm curious what your take is because you were older.
Do you remember what was going on when your mom
(31:44):
when your mother left? Originally like what?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
What? Why?
Speaker 4 (31:48):
And what was going on?
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Didn't you cover this ground before yesterday?
Speaker 4 (31:53):
But from my father's perspective, the way I understood it
was always you were the favorite. Did you did you
feel that way? At this point, Sheldon's face suddenly softens.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I always felt that I got the short end of
the stick.
Speaker 10 (32:09):
You were you were kind of a favorite with my mom.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
Yeah, maybe with mom because maybe temperamentally we were closer
than I was with my father. My father never gave
me spit. Did you ever get any money from my father?
I can't remember.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
You never got a line.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Now I can't remember you never one time I sprained
my ankle so bad.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That was that was terrible.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
I laid in that bed my ankle. He was He
says to me, you lazy bum. Yeah, man, he went
off on me that time.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
He took Sheldon once.
Speaker 10 (32:51):
Sheldon happened to say the word fuck.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
He came in with that fucking strap, swinging with.
Speaker 10 (33:00):
The bucket, and you know, I can understand it, leaving
a feeling of resentment and dislike.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Hey, yeah, that was his way of.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
Communicating with us. Smack smack, and then what a way?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah? Was he easier on you? You think it wasn't that?
Speaker 10 (33:21):
But he was tough on Sheldon.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Was I know you were closer to him than I was.
A lot of things that went on you didn't understand really.
Speaker 10 (33:31):
Well it did going on, So you had a different take.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Well are you surprised.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
By But I was a kid. I didn't understand it.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
But you didn't know that Sheldon was getting it so bad.
In Buzz's telling, their father was always more or less benign,
childish figure, incapable of expressing his feelings and so given
to temper tantrums. For Buzz, it was their mother who
was the manipulator, the woman who played the brothers off
each other. But hearing Sheldon's take, it sounds like maybe
(34:01):
their mother didn't come to take Sheldon because she loved
him best, but simply because he needed more protecting from
their father. For the first time during our trip, I
can see my father considering Sheldon's point of view, actually
(34:22):
taking it in. I know it's intense for him because
he can't even meet Sheldon's eyes. Instead, he looks at
me addresses his comments to me.
Speaker 10 (34:32):
You know, it said that my father had such a
negative impact on him, you know, just.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Awful because he had so much going for me. He
was a wonderful son.
Speaker 10 (34:41):
He worked hard, he was a good boy.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
He went to school talking like I'm a failure in life. No,
you aren't a fail that I'm saying. You weren't a faide.
Speaker 10 (34:52):
But all I'm saying is that emotionally he left an
impact on you.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
It took a long time for me to get out
of that emotion.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
And now I'm at peace to it myself.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
I can talk about him and laugh about it. Now
I want peace quiet. I'm happy living by myself.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Are you lonely?
Speaker 10 (35:18):
Sheldon O?
Speaker 4 (35:26):
The last time my father saw my grandfather in full health.
My dad was visiting from Canada. My grandfather asked my
father to drive him to the cemetery to visit his parents' grave,
and once there, my grandfather wept inconsolably. Later that day
he would succumb to a stroke and shortly after be
moved to a nursing home. With Sheldon being more local,
(35:47):
the burden of my grandfather's care fell mainly to Sheldon.
It seems like a lot of the family's burdens fell
to Sheldon.
Speaker 10 (35:55):
They put a lot of the responsibility on him, that
my dad should have been taking that responsibility, and he
shoulded that.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Well, who is going to take car of you? Who's
going to take you to school?
Speaker 6 (36:08):
Meet ya?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I remember one time, hours later or something, you stood
outside that cry. I said, mosy, I'm here, I'm here.
He was good to meet at times me, you know,
just you were.
Speaker 9 (36:24):
My older brother used to knock the ship out of
me sometimes, but you know that's the way it is
with brothers.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Well, yeah, I was good in some way some way
that I was mean.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Who's who was not? Who's not who is not?
Speaker 4 (36:39):
So if you feel like you were compelled to see
each other now because you knew that. You know it's
an hour and never kind of thing. Then it means
that it was important to you both right to see
each other.
Speaker 10 (36:54):
You want to take that easy answer, yes, yes, because
we're not getting any younger. I mean, what's what's down
the road.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I'm eighty he's eighty five. I mean because the there's.
Speaker 10 (37:09):
A lot of water under the bridge, and we want
to close that bridge. Now, I want to feel easy. Now,
I want to say, now he's going to be eighty six,
I want to call him on his birthday and say
happy birthday to him. Now, I'm not going to stand
any fucking ceremonies anymore.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
As my father speaks, as per his brother's example, dropping
f bombs like he's in a Guy Ritchie film, Sheldon
keeps his arms crossed and his eyes shut tight. He's
quiet for several seconds, and then he reaches out to
pet his cat.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Should I leave you a cat in my will if anything.
Speaker 10 (37:39):
Happen, if anything out, I'll take care of the cat.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
I'll take care of the cat.
Speaker 10 (37:45):
I'm happy I can't to see you.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
That I am. I'm happy it can't here. That's good,
very good.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Why I want to buy a house.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
When it's time to leave, Sheldon walks us outside, but
before we get into the rental, he points across the
lawn to his neighbor's house. He tells my father that
it's for sale, and then he tells him the asking price,
and my father says that doesn't sound bad at all.
And Sheldon says that, what with Canada being so bloody cold,
my father should consider moving to Florida, and my father
(38:21):
says maybe he will. They don't get too emotional, they
don't even hug it by, They just shake hands. And
with that, it feels like Buzz has forgiven Sheldon, and
Sheldon has forgiven Buzz.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
All right, you take care of the bridge, sank trip
both this, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, thank you, we'll speak.
Speaker 10 (38:44):
We'll speak.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Turn right on Northwest, Man for drawing. Oh my god,
it feels so different now.
Speaker 10 (38:58):
You know that this has taking a lot off my
shoulders idea.
Speaker 6 (39:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
As we ride to the airport, my father says that
the thought of Sheldon all alone in that house with
just a cat makes him sad. Do you really think
he isn't lonely, my father asks. I assure him that
Sheldon seems okay with being alone. But my father doesn't
seem so sure. After all these years, the burden of
having lost his brother has been replaced by a new burden,
(39:27):
one that might be heavier to bear. Now that the
(40:10):
furnitures returned to its goodwill.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
Home, now that the last month's raft is scheming.
Speaker 7 (40:23):
With the damage, the possum take this moment to do so.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
If we ment, If we talk.
Speaker 6 (40:34):
Were felt around for.
Speaker 8 (40:35):
Far too.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
From the thaus it accidentally Talk.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me Jonathan Goldstein. This
episode was also produced by Wendy Dore, Chris Neary, and
Khalila Holt, editing by Alex Bloomberg and Peter Clowney. Special
thanks to Caitlin Kenny, Starle Kine and Rachel Ward. The
show was mixed by Hailey Shaw. Music in this episode
by Christine Fellows, with additional music and ad music by
Hailey Shaw. Our theme song is by The Weaker Bands,
(41:07):
courtesy of Epitaph Records. A version of the story appeared
on This American Life, and we had a lot of
help from the folks there, Ira Glass, Julie Snyder, Jonathan
men Heavar, Sean Cole, and Robin Semeon a very special
thanks to Emily Condons. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight.
We'll have a new episode next week.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
We used to call him Mitchie, little Bitchy, the older brother,
the oldest one.
Speaker 6 (41:42):
He was.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Hey, well lucky we turned out as good as we did.
Host
Malcolm Gladwell
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!