August 10, 2016 • 32 mins
A 98-year-old minister takes on his church over the subject of gay marriage—and teaches the rest of us what it means to stand up in protest.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. I grew up in southwestern Ontario, farming country, in
a place called Waterloo County. Waterloo County is home to
one of the largest populations of Mennonites in the world.
I grew up among Mennonites, went to school with them.
They're Anabaptists, which is one of the oldest Protestant denominations.
(00:36):
Mennonites are small in number, industrious, close knit. Came to
North America after they were persecuted in Russia. The joke
is they're basically Jews who farm. So I went home
to see my parents not long ago, and everyone was
talking about something online called an Open Letter to my
beloved church. It's a long letter touching on family and
(00:56):
devotion and faith in scripture. A Mennonite pastor wrote it, actually,
I should say an ex Mennonite pastor, a man named
Chester Wanger. I read the letter and I was so
taken by it that I went to see him, drove
four and a half hours on one cold January day.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh my, just every day three four or five people say, oh,
we just like your letter. We like your letter, we
like your letter.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
The letter has been read more than two hundred and
thirty thousand times on Mennonite dot org. To put that
in perspective, there were only eight hundred thousand mena nits
in North America. It's been liked and shared all over
Facebook hashtag Chester Wenger is a thing. I asked Wenger
if he anticipated any of his words going viral.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I didn't even know it. Didn't even know what viral meant.
The letter went virals. What does that mean? It's like
a virus. It just read. I was shocked.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
My name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is Revisionist History, my
podcast about things misunderstood and overlooked. This week's episode is
about Chester Wenger and about an idea called generous orthodoxy.
(02:17):
That phrase generous orthodoxy comes from a theologian named Hans Fry.
It's an oxymoron.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
To be orthodox is to be committed to tradition. To
be generous, as Frida fines, it is to be open
to change. But Fri I thought the best way to
live our lives was to find the middle ground. Because
orthodoxy without generosity leads to blindness, and generosity without orthodoxy
is shallow and empty. One of the hardest things in
(02:48):
the world is to find that balance. Not just for
those pursuing a life of faith, but for anyone interested
in making their world better. I think Chester Wenger shows
us the way.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I wanted to study Bible, and I got the first
the best of arts, and then I got a Bachelor
of Theology. I was very interested in getting all the
training I could.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Wenger lives in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, another man of night Enclave,
in a little house just off the turnpike, where he
and his wife, Sarah Jane brought up their eight children.
Wenger has a barrel chest, straight back, real handshake, big
head of white hair. He looks a little like a
cross between Colonel Sanders and an NFL linebacker. He's ninety
(03:36):
eight years old. This is the part of the evening
that I remember the most. The very end of several
hours in his tiny living room. It nearly brought me
to tears.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
As I thought I wanted to read from Romans. It's
very familiar, for I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of
Christ Jesus. It is the power of God for salvation
to everyone who has faith. Notice how broad that is.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Let me start with a few more words about Mennonites,
because what Wanger did makes no sense unless you understand
the world that he inhabits. The theologian Palm Rebcker has
a lovely phrase to describe the Mennonite way. Jesus is
the center of our faith. Community is the center of
our lives. Reconciliation is the center of our work. It's
(04:31):
hard to explain to an outsider how seriously the Mennonites
take these three things Jesus, community, and reconciliation. They don't
use the word community, for example, in the metaphorical way
like most of us. Do you know, I'm a member
of the journalist community. To Mennonite's community is a much
more serious thing. Listen to my friend Jim Laptisin, who's
(04:55):
a Mennonite pastor.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
In my dad's church growing up, it was very strict.
He told me at one point that if people didn't
believe you were a given ten percent of your income
to the church, they had the right to audit your books.
And he said that without any recrimination or any condemnation,
and even a bit of humor. He was like, and
so my books got out, and twice by his good
friend and neighbor up their own.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
How on earth? But did that conversation happen. The treasurer
came to him and said, we don't think you're giving enough.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Absolutely, And I have a really high view of the church,
and you know you speak on behalf of the church.
And we've all submitted to this, so it's not like
I'm submitting to something that you haven't. So we're all
in us together, yeah, and we're all trying to be
as faithful as we can be.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
That business of auditing each other's books, that's from fifty
or sixty years ago, a different era. But I think
it gives you a flavor of what Mennonites mean when
they say we're all in this together. When I was
a kid, just after we moved to Canada from England,
we heard about a barn raising not far from us.
When a Mennonite farmer's barn burns down, the people from
(05:59):
church gather as soon as they can bring food and
building materials and anything else to replace what was lost,
and they build a new barn. Frame it up one day,
put it up the next. My parents were Presbyterians, but
my father found the idea of a barn raising incredibly impressive,
so he crashed it.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
You have to.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Understand that these are what were called Old Order Mennonites,
like the Amish. They drove horses and buggies and lived
without electricity. My dad was a college professor in a
rusty Puusia with an impenetrable English accent and a shirt
and a tie. They'd never seen him or anything like
him before. They just put him to work, no questions asked.
(06:39):
We're all in this together. Eventually my parents would join
the Mennonite Church, and my brother would marry a Mennonite pastor.
And I suspect that sense of community is why there's
something beautiful about that kind of belonging. One more Mennonite
story from my friend Jim Leftisen. This might even be
the quintessential Mennonite story. About a guy who buys a
(07:01):
house from another Mennonite whom, of course, he trusted.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
He bought the house and find out that in fact
he'd been light to so. On either side of this
man two men from a Mennonite church. One of them
said to him, did he tell you that the septic
system was in good shape? And he said yes he did,
and he said you have to fix it. He said, yeah,
I have to replace it completely. Was twelve thousand dollars
(07:25):
or something.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
The septic system, one of the most expensive things in
a house.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
He said, well, here's four thousand dollars for that. What
he did wasn't right, and he goes to our church
and the guy on the other side said, dumb, I'll
pay whatever he didn't pay, so they together covered it.
He said, he goes to our church, and that isn't right.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
This is the world Chester Wenger in habits. He's squarely
in the middle of it. Wenger's father was one of
the founders of a big Mennonite seminary in Virginia. His daughter, Sarah,
is the president of the Big Mennonite Seminary in Elkhart, Indiana.
Wenger lived seventeen years in Ethiopia, where he helped to
found and build what is now the largest Mennonite church
(08:03):
in the world. To Deep Ties, Deep Ties, you guys
are Mennonite royalty. Basically in Hans Frey's terms. Wenger is
an Orthodox Manolone, a member of the Blossom Hill Congregation
in Lancaster. But there's another side to him. Mennonites come
(08:28):
in all kinds of shapes and sizes. My parents' church
in Ontario was pretty liberal, full of college professors and
software engineers and teachers. My mom and her best friend
Lorraine were doing feminist retreats back in the seventies. But
Lancaster County, where Wenger is from, is much more conservative.
The Mennonites there didn't accept women as our dained ministers
(08:49):
until a couple of years ago, and that was something
that Wenger struggled with because he's not just orthodox, he's generous.
He's open to the world. He spent ten years as
pastor of Blossom Hill in the nineteen eighties, so when
it came to the prohibition against female pastors, Wenger would
do what kind of workaround. The rules said women could
(09:09):
not be ordained as ministers, meaning they couldn't be formally
recognized as church leaders, but they could still talk on
Sunday morning.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Right, I used women in the pulpit that weren't ordained.
I preach, and then next Sunday I'd have this woman preach,
and then I'd have my wife preach. I didn't want
to do all the preaching.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Would if no one questions your loyalty, you can get
away with that kind of subversion. Chester Wenger walked that
fine line orthodox but also generous. Until one day, Chester
Sun Philip comes to him, and the line becomes almost
impossible to walk.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
It all.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
Growing up, I had no awareness of homosexuality anywhere. I
remember somewhere along the line, maybe when I was early
adolescence it I talked about a cousin of mine, but
I didn't know what they were.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Talking about, the question of whether someone might be gay
simply never occurred to him. And it goes without saying
that a community that did not permit the ordination of
women until quite recently did not have progressive views on homosexuality.
But one day Phil pulled his father aside. What did
he tell you?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I don't know the words he used, but I understood
that he had attraction for males instead of females.
Speaker 7 (10:43):
And I said, maybe you can outgrow this, and so
that's where that's where we left it. And about a
year later he came back and said, Dad, I haven't
outgrown it. And so we had this.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Awareness that he's that's who he is.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So Phil goes off to college, he comes home, he
brings up the subject again.
Speaker 8 (11:11):
And I came to him and I explained to him
ten minutes before I was going to drive back to
college in Virginia.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
That's Phil. He's in the room with me and Chester
sitting across from his father.
Speaker 8 (11:23):
That dad, this is for real. I'm going to identify
as being gay. I'm going to tell other people I'm gay.
I'm going to date other guys. And you know, you're
going to have to get used to this.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
As word got out in Lancaster, the consequences were immediate.
Phil had a job with the church. He lost it.
He was instructed to come in and confess his sins.
He refused. Chester Wanger had a position in the Midda
Night administration in Lancaster at the time, and attended a
local Meddonite church One Sunday morning. The pastor got up
(11:57):
and made an announcement.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
He just read off in church one day that Phil
Winger is no longer a member of our congregation. And
we didn't know it. He didn't approach you first know
that he was doing that, and Phil hadn't had contact
with him either or him with Phil, and I couldn't
believe it.
Speaker 8 (12:18):
It was illilateral and I wasn't part of the conversation,
and the deed was already done, and at that point
my faith had pretty much diminished. To next to nothing,
and I was going to proceed with a life outside
the traditional church community.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Think about this through Chester Wenger's eyes. He can accept
his son's sexuality, but his own church, the church to
which he has been loyal all his life, that church
has now cast his son out. His orthodoxy is in
conflict with his generosity, and his son is caught in
the middle. Can you imagine not just the pain, but
(12:55):
the guilt. He gave his life to a church that
said we're all in this together, and now that church
has split his family in two.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I always told Phil that your faith is most important
to me. Don't give up the faith in Jesus.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Phil went on to start a successful restaurant business. At
one point, some years ago, he goes back to his
high school reunion and there some of his old classmates
confront him and tell him they would never eat at
one of his restaurants. Phil tells his mother.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And you told her all this, and she said to you,
don't give up on Jesus.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
He's sitting in his chair straight back ninety eight years old,
Colonel Sanders meets a linebacker, a man of God, and
as Chester Wenger talks about that moment years ago, when
he worried that his son's soul was in jeopardy. He
starts to.
Speaker 9 (13:55):
Weep, and I guess there was no expression at that
point particularly, But as he went to go out the door,
he gave.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
A broad swap.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Test to testified, don't give up what Jesus, and he
seemed to accept it with a smile. And that test
tests very deeply.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
At the beginning of this story, I said that balancing
loyalty and conscience is just about the hardest thing to do.
Let me give you another example. It's not as wrenching
as Chester Wenger's story, but it gets at some of
the same issues. It's from Princeton University, one of the
(14:51):
schools that's been swept up in the recent wave of
campus unrest. The controversy is over Woodrow Wilson, who was
president of Princeton from nineteen oh two to nineteen ten,
and of course, later went on to serve two terms
as President of the United States. Princeton named one of
his most prestigious graduate schools after him, the Wilson School
of Public and International Affairs. Wilson did many remarkable and
(15:14):
important things as the head of Princeton and later as
president but he was a racist, and not a mild one,
a kind of nasty one. So in the fall of
twenty fifteen, activists at the school staged a thirty two
hours sitting in the office of the Princeton president. They
want Wilson's name off.
Speaker 10 (15:33):
The graduate schoolerpetuated in ideology that has led to the
continuous shut aside of black people in this country.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
He is a murderer. We all have nothing. This university everything.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Jacob Smith, one of my producers, talked to one of
the protesters, a sophomore named will Glory Tanjohn. The promise
of Princeton, she argues, is that all its students will
feel at home. This campus is for you. But everywhere
she goes, she sees pictures of Wilson.
Speaker 10 (16:08):
Everywhere in the most random places, there are rooms that
have just all these huge photos of this white man
peering down on you. Right, So when you see these
kind of things, you really feel like, what was this
university meant for me? Or is it still really meant
for white men?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Now? I happen to agree with Tanjohn. How do you
think Princeton became one of the wealthiest universities in the world.
The place is ground zero for rich white guys. Just
walk around campus. There's the carl Icon Laboratory. That's Carl Icon,
rich white male, corporate raider billionaire. There's the Frick Chemistry Laboratory.
That's Henry Clay Frick, white male robber baron. The Firestone
(16:49):
Library that's the rich white guy who started Firestone Tires.
The Bezos Center for Neural Circuit Dynamics, you know, the
rich white guy who founded Amazon. Look over there, it's
the Lewis Center for the Arts. That's Peter Lewis, the
white guy who started Progressive Insurance. The John Scully Center
for the Neuroscience of Mind and Behavior. Scully a rich
(17:10):
white guy. Not to be confused, by the way, with
the other John Scully, a rich white guy who used
to run Apple. This is the even richer John Scully
who manages billions of dollars on Wall Street. Do I
need to go on Rockefeller Hall, richest white guy ever.
Of course, there's also Emma B. Bloomberg Hall. Emma Bloomberg
(17:32):
not a white guy, except wait, she's the daughter of
Michael Bloomberg. Super super like forty three billion dollar rich
white guy. They don't hide their identities at Princeton. They
put their identities on every single building on campus. A
few weeks after the students sit in, there was a
(17:53):
town hall meeting on the Princeton campus to discuss whether
or not to change the name of the Wilson School.
Speaker 10 (17:58):
I really hope that people really think about why we
are so tied to this name, like what really changes
if we change the name.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
It was held at the Richardson Auditorium, lots of dark
wood in stone tapestries on the wall. By the way,
a building named in honor of David B. Richardson, class
of thirty three, usefully described in the Princeton promotional literature
as a quote lifelong enthusiast of classical music and a
successful lawyer and investor. Another rich white guy. Think about it,
(18:28):
Princeton literally could not find a single place to discuss
the troubled legacy of a rich white guy that was
not named after a rich white guy. Here's the first
guy who gets up to speak.
Speaker 11 (18:39):
I'm Harvey Rothberg, class of the great class of nineteen
forty nine. I absolutely believe that the name of Woodrow
Wilson should be preserved at the head of the School
of Public and International Affairs.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Rothberg says it's important that everyone know who Wilson was
and what the man did.
Speaker 11 (19:02):
There could be a memorial plaque, engraved in bronze and
so on, which would detail in a short paragraph his
great achievements as president of this university, and in a
second paragraph his great achievements as president of the United
(19:22):
States and on the international scene as well. But there
could also be a final paragraph, a short one, which
would say something like Wilson's prejudiced views on racial matters
were undoubtedly influenced and shaped by his background and his
(19:45):
growing up in the post bellum South.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Then another alum gets up and he agrees.
Speaker 11 (19:52):
He's a giant.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
You can't just take his name off of schools or colleges.
We have to keep them. All people are flawed.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
He also likes the plack idea. But this speaker has
a quibble with a short paragraph about prejudice.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
I think it can't just say Wilson was influenced by
the prevailing more a's of the time, because a man
of his stature should have seen beyond that. And I
think some of the platforms to acknowledge that real harm
was caused to real people.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
This is what the protesters are up against. I mean,
can you believe these guys. When Wilson took office as president,
the Federal Civil Service was one of the only institutions
in Washington that was integrated. Blacks had jobs next to whites.
One of the first things Wilson does is reverse that policy.
Lots of black federal workers get fired, and it becomes
(20:52):
really hard for educated African Americans to get a job
in Washington. And when a delegation of black professionals comes
to him to complain, you know what he says to them.
Segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit and ought
to be so regarded by you, gentlemen. This is the
guy Princeton venerates. And the thing that the first two
(21:13):
speakers are arguing about is the wording of the last
paragraph of the plaque. They want to put up the
plaque as if the whole controversy were really just an
exercise in improving signage. For goodness sake, take the man's
name down. If you don't want to change the schools stationary,
just choose another Wilson. There are lots of Wilson's out
(21:34):
there who don't hate black people. Jackie Rita Russell flip
rebel Owen, how about the Owen Wilson School of Public
and International Affairs. But the only way people like this
are going to listen to the protesters is if they
think the protesters care about Princeton, care about Princeton the
way it is. They'll accept generosity only if it comes
(21:58):
with some orthodoxy. They want some acknowledgment that the protesters
appreciate what they've been given, some concession that the rich
white guys who make them so uncomfortable also made it
possible for them to attend a school that looks like Versailles,
if Versailles, by some accident of history, had been built
not outside of Paris, but between Trenton and Newark, New Jersey.
(22:22):
But instead, what do they hear?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
This university owes us everything.
Speaker 12 (22:27):
I walked around on this campus understanding that this was
built on the backs of my people, and I owe
none of you guys anything.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
We owe white people nothing, and not for the for
the evilness and.
Speaker 12 (22:38):
A white hatred in this country, we would not have
to be fighting for our rights.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
All of this is mine. My people built this place.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
She's angry, she's passionate. Maybe right now she regrets her
choice of words when I was an angry young student
a generation ago. I ended up regretting my words. But
I went to school before every emotional outburst got immortalized
on YouTube, and those words are what every crotchety old
Princeton alum heard when they went online. All of this
(23:08):
is mine. How do you think they felt when they
heard that or some version of this.
Speaker 10 (23:15):
I don't feel welcomes when you walk on this campus
and you see the name of POJOA. Wilson on the
graduate building, right will.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Glory Tanjohn complaining about the privileged white guys peering down
on her. But she chose to go to Princeton Ground
zero for the privileged white guy. It's not like the
school covered over the names on those buildings when she
came for her campus visit. She's basically saying that the
school I chose to attend, the school that makes no
attempt to hide what it is and what it stands for,
(23:45):
is not I suddenly realize a place that makes me
feel comfortable, and so I want to change it. These
are not arguments that are going to convince anyone. I
don't need to tell you what happens after a decent
interval A few months later, the Wilson Legacy Review Committee
(24:06):
comes out with the university's decision. The head of the
committee says, at the end of the day, what we
learned was that Wilson was a complicated and flawed individual.
But when you look at the pluses and minuses, we
didn't feel that the minuses were enough to eliminate his
name a whitewash. Here's what the protesters should have done. Instead,
(24:30):
they should have said, Wilson's name makes us so uncomfortable
that we're not coming back next semester unless you change it,
and we're going to tell other perspective Princeton students, minority
and otherwise to do the same. Instead of talking about
what they were owed by Princeton, they should have talked
about what they were willing to give up for Princeton.
(24:53):
I am willing to give up my position at the
New Jersey Versailles in order to make the school a
better place. That's how much I care about Princeton. Generosity
mixed with orthodoxy, Now would that have worked idea? But
the best and brightest standing up and saying I'm giving
(25:14):
up my place at one of the world's great universities
in order to save it from itself. Certainly has a
better shot than a sleepover in the president's office. Yes,
it would have been a costly strategy. It would have
required a real sacrifice. That's why generous orthodoxy is so hard.
(25:43):
When he was twenty nine, Phil Wenger fell in love
with a man named Steve. They'd been together ever since.
Then about ten years ago, Gene Robinson became the first
openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church, and Phil and
Steve found themselves a new spiritual home.
Speaker 8 (26:01):
I was confirmed and joined the Episcopal Church, and I
invited mom and dad to come and participate in that,
and a couple of other siblings came, and after I
rejoined the church, my father could hardly stop weeping his
tears of joy.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
When a state at Pennsylvania legalized gay marriage in twenty fourteen,
Phil and Steve raced down to the courthouse to apply
for their marriage license. They were a second in.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
Line, and the couple in front of us offered to
let us go first, but we let them go first
because we knew each other.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Then they had a big party at the Hamilton Club
in downtown Lancaster as they waited for their marriage certificate.
Invited four hundred people. Phil's rector from the Saint James
Episcopal Church, performed a ceremony. Phil had his father say
a blessing at the end.
Speaker 8 (26:49):
But afterward he shared with me that he sort of
was a little bit envious that I had not asked
him to actually marry us. So as soon as we
got the wedding certificate, and as soon as I knew
we were going to get married, I went to Dad.
I said, would you be willing to do this officially,
sign our wedding certificate, our marriagetif and would you be
(27:10):
willing to do the vows with the two of us?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They gathered in Phil's backyard, Phil Steve, two witnesses, Chester
and his wife Sarah Jane. I asked Chester Wenger about
that day, why would it matter to him that someone
else would officiate at his son's wedding.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
He told me that the mayor offered to marry him.
I was his father, and I was an ordained clergy
in our church. And I didn't say a word. I
just waited quietly, and when he asked, I said sure.
So I was I appreciate that he let me do that,
(27:53):
and signed the certificate.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
With that act, Chester Wenger made his family whole. He
welcomed his son back into the fold of family and
religious community. But he knew what that meant. It meant
that he had broken the rules of his own church,
which do not acknowledge same sex marriages. There was no
work around this time, like when he had women preach
in the pulpit of Blossom Hill.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
They had to discipline, and so they lifted my credentials.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
He was no longer I'm at a night pastor. You've
had credentials as a clergyman for se many years, since
nineteen forty eight. How did it feel to be stripped
of them?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
It didn't make any difference to me, because I'm the
same person I am. I'm respected in my congregation. I
don't intend to marry anybody else. I don't intend to
be an authority for anyone. I just have a heritage
life that I've lived. So they took away something that
(28:55):
I'll never use anyway.
Speaker 8 (28:58):
I did think you might want to marry one of
your great grandchildren someday.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
He laughs. But of course it made a difference to him.
It made all the difference in the world. He gave
up his profession, his position within the church, his identity,
so he could officiate at the marriage of his son.
He sacrificed, He gave something up because his son had
been excluded from the world of church and family for
(29:27):
a Mennonite, the most grievous kind of harm.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
And he's my child, He's my son, precious, precious child.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Then Chesterwenger wrote his letter, an open letter to the
Mennonite Church, the letter that went viral, written by the
man who wasn't even sure what viral meant. It's a
long letter, but here are the two sentences that struck
me the most. When my wife and I read the
Bible with today's fractured, anxious church in mind, we ask,
(30:05):
what is Jesus calling us to do with those sons
and daughters who among the most despised people in the world,
in all races and communities. What would Jesus do with
our sons and daughters who are bullied, homeless, sexually abused,
and driven to suicide at far higher rates than our
heterosexual children. That's generous, Chester Wenger, open to seeing the
(30:30):
world in new ways, but there's no anger in his letter.
Alongside the generosity is orthodoxy respect for the body. He
is trying to heal. He goes on to say that
he reported his transgression to the church leadership himself. He
told them what he had done, and they responded, and
(30:52):
these are his words with grace filled pastoral listening. And
then he writes, I am at peace with their decision
and understand their need to take this action. Chester Wenger
(31:17):
is going to win. Maybe not right away, but he'll
win because he makes plain not just how beautiful, generous
orthodox he is, but how powerful, which is something that
everyone who stands up in protest needs to remember. You
must respect the body you are trying to heal.
Speaker 11 (31:37):
Are you going to.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Read something to his Chester adverse?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I thought I wanted to read from Romans. It's very familiar.
For I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
It is the power of God for salvation to everyone
who has faith. The Gospel is open. I just think
(32:04):
that's so precious.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
You've been listening to Revisionist History. If you like what
you've heard, do us a favor and rate us on
iTunes it helps. You can get more information about this
and other episodes at Revisionististory dot com or on your
favorite podcast app. Our show is produced by me LaBelle,
Roxanne Scott and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton.
(32:39):
Music is composed by Luis Kira and Taka Yasuzawa. Flon
Williams is our engineer and our fact checker is Michelle
Sarraka Panalty Management team Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg.
I'm Malcolm Gladwell.
Pushkin. I grew up in southwestern Ontario, farming country, in
a place called Waterloo County. Waterloo County is home to
one of the largest populations of Mennonites in the world.
I grew up among Mennonites, went to school with them.
They're Anabaptists, which is one of the oldest Protestant denominations.
(00:36):
Mennonites are small in number, industrious, close knit. Came to
North America after they were persecuted in Russia. The joke
is they're basically Jews who farm. So I went home
to see my parents not long ago, and everyone was
talking about something online called an Open Letter to my
beloved church. It's a long letter touching on family and
(00:56):
devotion and faith in scripture. A Mennonite pastor wrote it, actually,
I should say an ex Mennonite pastor, a man named
Chester Wanger. I read the letter and I was so
taken by it that I went to see him, drove
four and a half hours on one cold January day.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh my, just every day three four or five people say, oh,
we just like your letter. We like your letter, we
like your letter.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
The letter has been read more than two hundred and
thirty thousand times on Mennonite dot org. To put that
in perspective, there were only eight hundred thousand mena nits
in North America. It's been liked and shared all over
Facebook hashtag Chester Wenger is a thing. I asked Wenger
if he anticipated any of his words going viral.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I didn't even know it. Didn't even know what viral meant.
The letter went virals. What does that mean? It's like
a virus. It just read. I was shocked.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
My name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is Revisionist History, my
podcast about things misunderstood and overlooked. This week's episode is
about Chester Wenger and about an idea called generous orthodoxy.
(02:17):
That phrase generous orthodoxy comes from a theologian named Hans Fry.
It's an oxymoron.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
To be orthodox is to be committed to tradition. To
be generous, as Frida fines, it is to be open
to change. But Fri I thought the best way to
live our lives was to find the middle ground. Because
orthodoxy without generosity leads to blindness, and generosity without orthodoxy
is shallow and empty. One of the hardest things in
(02:48):
the world is to find that balance. Not just for
those pursuing a life of faith, but for anyone interested
in making their world better. I think Chester Wenger shows
us the way.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I wanted to study Bible, and I got the first
the best of arts, and then I got a Bachelor
of Theology. I was very interested in getting all the
training I could.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Wenger lives in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, another man of night Enclave,
in a little house just off the turnpike, where he
and his wife, Sarah Jane brought up their eight children.
Wenger has a barrel chest, straight back, real handshake, big
head of white hair. He looks a little like a
cross between Colonel Sanders and an NFL linebacker. He's ninety
(03:36):
eight years old. This is the part of the evening
that I remember the most. The very end of several
hours in his tiny living room. It nearly brought me
to tears.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
As I thought I wanted to read from Romans. It's
very familiar, for I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of
Christ Jesus. It is the power of God for salvation
to everyone who has faith. Notice how broad that is.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Let me start with a few more words about Mennonites,
because what Wanger did makes no sense unless you understand
the world that he inhabits. The theologian Palm Rebcker has
a lovely phrase to describe the Mennonite way. Jesus is
the center of our faith. Community is the center of
our lives. Reconciliation is the center of our work. It's
(04:31):
hard to explain to an outsider how seriously the Mennonites
take these three things Jesus, community, and reconciliation. They don't
use the word community, for example, in the metaphorical way
like most of us. Do you know, I'm a member
of the journalist community. To Mennonite's community is a much
more serious thing. Listen to my friend Jim Laptisin, who's
(04:55):
a Mennonite pastor.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
In my dad's church growing up, it was very strict.
He told me at one point that if people didn't
believe you were a given ten percent of your income
to the church, they had the right to audit your books.
And he said that without any recrimination or any condemnation,
and even a bit of humor. He was like, and
so my books got out, and twice by his good
friend and neighbor up their own.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
How on earth? But did that conversation happen. The treasurer
came to him and said, we don't think you're giving enough.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Absolutely, And I have a really high view of the church,
and you know you speak on behalf of the church.
And we've all submitted to this, so it's not like
I'm submitting to something that you haven't. So we're all
in us together, yeah, and we're all trying to be
as faithful as we can be.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
That business of auditing each other's books, that's from fifty
or sixty years ago, a different era. But I think
it gives you a flavor of what Mennonites mean when
they say we're all in this together. When I was
a kid, just after we moved to Canada from England,
we heard about a barn raising not far from us.
When a Mennonite farmer's barn burns down, the people from
(05:59):
church gather as soon as they can bring food and
building materials and anything else to replace what was lost,
and they build a new barn. Frame it up one day,
put it up the next. My parents were Presbyterians, but
my father found the idea of a barn raising incredibly impressive,
so he crashed it.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
You have to.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Understand that these are what were called Old Order Mennonites,
like the Amish. They drove horses and buggies and lived
without electricity. My dad was a college professor in a
rusty Puusia with an impenetrable English accent and a shirt
and a tie. They'd never seen him or anything like
him before. They just put him to work, no questions asked.
(06:39):
We're all in this together. Eventually my parents would join
the Mennonite Church, and my brother would marry a Mennonite pastor.
And I suspect that sense of community is why there's
something beautiful about that kind of belonging. One more Mennonite
story from my friend Jim Leftisen. This might even be
the quintessential Mennonite story. About a guy who buys a
(07:01):
house from another Mennonite whom, of course, he trusted.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
He bought the house and find out that in fact
he'd been light to so. On either side of this
man two men from a Mennonite church. One of them
said to him, did he tell you that the septic
system was in good shape? And he said yes he did,
and he said you have to fix it. He said, yeah,
I have to replace it completely. Was twelve thousand dollars
(07:25):
or something.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
The septic system, one of the most expensive things in
a house.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
He said, well, here's four thousand dollars for that. What
he did wasn't right, and he goes to our church
and the guy on the other side said, dumb, I'll
pay whatever he didn't pay, so they together covered it.
He said, he goes to our church, and that isn't right.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
This is the world Chester Wenger in habits. He's squarely
in the middle of it. Wenger's father was one of
the founders of a big Mennonite seminary in Virginia. His daughter, Sarah,
is the president of the Big Mennonite Seminary in Elkhart, Indiana.
Wenger lived seventeen years in Ethiopia, where he helped to
found and build what is now the largest Mennonite church
(08:03):
in the world. To Deep Ties, Deep Ties, you guys
are Mennonite royalty. Basically in Hans Frey's terms. Wenger is
an Orthodox Manolone, a member of the Blossom Hill Congregation
in Lancaster. But there's another side to him. Mennonites come
(08:28):
in all kinds of shapes and sizes. My parents' church
in Ontario was pretty liberal, full of college professors and
software engineers and teachers. My mom and her best friend
Lorraine were doing feminist retreats back in the seventies. But
Lancaster County, where Wenger is from, is much more conservative.
The Mennonites there didn't accept women as our dained ministers
(08:49):
until a couple of years ago, and that was something
that Wenger struggled with because he's not just orthodox, he's generous.
He's open to the world. He spent ten years as
pastor of Blossom Hill in the nineteen eighties, so when
it came to the prohibition against female pastors, Wenger would
do what kind of workaround. The rules said women could
(09:09):
not be ordained as ministers, meaning they couldn't be formally
recognized as church leaders, but they could still talk on
Sunday morning.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Right, I used women in the pulpit that weren't ordained.
I preach, and then next Sunday I'd have this woman preach,
and then I'd have my wife preach. I didn't want
to do all the preaching.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Would if no one questions your loyalty, you can get
away with that kind of subversion. Chester Wenger walked that
fine line orthodox but also generous. Until one day, Chester
Sun Philip comes to him, and the line becomes almost
impossible to walk.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
It all.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
Growing up, I had no awareness of homosexuality anywhere. I
remember somewhere along the line, maybe when I was early
adolescence it I talked about a cousin of mine, but
I didn't know what they were.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Talking about, the question of whether someone might be gay
simply never occurred to him. And it goes without saying
that a community that did not permit the ordination of
women until quite recently did not have progressive views on homosexuality.
But one day Phil pulled his father aside. What did
he tell you?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I don't know the words he used, but I understood
that he had attraction for males instead of females.
Speaker 7 (10:43):
And I said, maybe you can outgrow this, and so
that's where that's where we left it. And about a
year later he came back and said, Dad, I haven't
outgrown it. And so we had this.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Awareness that he's that's who he is.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So Phil goes off to college, he comes home, he
brings up the subject again.
Speaker 8 (11:11):
And I came to him and I explained to him
ten minutes before I was going to drive back to
college in Virginia.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
That's Phil. He's in the room with me and Chester
sitting across from his father.
Speaker 8 (11:23):
That dad, this is for real. I'm going to identify
as being gay. I'm going to tell other people I'm gay.
I'm going to date other guys. And you know, you're
going to have to get used to this.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
As word got out in Lancaster, the consequences were immediate.
Phil had a job with the church. He lost it.
He was instructed to come in and confess his sins.
He refused. Chester Wanger had a position in the Midda
Night administration in Lancaster at the time, and attended a
local Meddonite church One Sunday morning. The pastor got up
(11:57):
and made an announcement.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
He just read off in church one day that Phil
Winger is no longer a member of our congregation. And
we didn't know it. He didn't approach you first know
that he was doing that, and Phil hadn't had contact
with him either or him with Phil, and I couldn't
believe it.
Speaker 8 (12:18):
It was illilateral and I wasn't part of the conversation,
and the deed was already done, and at that point
my faith had pretty much diminished. To next to nothing,
and I was going to proceed with a life outside
the traditional church community.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Think about this through Chester Wenger's eyes. He can accept
his son's sexuality, but his own church, the church to
which he has been loyal all his life, that church
has now cast his son out. His orthodoxy is in
conflict with his generosity, and his son is caught in
the middle. Can you imagine not just the pain, but
(12:55):
the guilt. He gave his life to a church that
said we're all in this together, and now that church
has split his family in two.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I always told Phil that your faith is most important
to me. Don't give up the faith in Jesus.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Phil went on to start a successful restaurant business. At
one point, some years ago, he goes back to his
high school reunion and there some of his old classmates
confront him and tell him they would never eat at
one of his restaurants. Phil tells his mother.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And you told her all this, and she said to you,
don't give up on Jesus.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
He's sitting in his chair straight back ninety eight years old,
Colonel Sanders meets a linebacker, a man of God, and
as Chester Wenger talks about that moment years ago, when
he worried that his son's soul was in jeopardy. He
starts to.
Speaker 9 (13:55):
Weep, and I guess there was no expression at that
point particularly, But as he went to go out the door,
he gave.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
A broad swap.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Test to testified, don't give up what Jesus, and he
seemed to accept it with a smile. And that test
tests very deeply.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
At the beginning of this story, I said that balancing
loyalty and conscience is just about the hardest thing to do.
Let me give you another example. It's not as wrenching
as Chester Wenger's story, but it gets at some of
the same issues. It's from Princeton University, one of the
(14:51):
schools that's been swept up in the recent wave of
campus unrest. The controversy is over Woodrow Wilson, who was
president of Princeton from nineteen oh two to nineteen ten,
and of course, later went on to serve two terms
as President of the United States. Princeton named one of
his most prestigious graduate schools after him, the Wilson School
of Public and International Affairs. Wilson did many remarkable and
(15:14):
important things as the head of Princeton and later as
president but he was a racist, and not a mild one,
a kind of nasty one. So in the fall of
twenty fifteen, activists at the school staged a thirty two
hours sitting in the office of the Princeton president. They
want Wilson's name off.
Speaker 10 (15:33):
The graduate schoolerpetuated in ideology that has led to the
continuous shut aside of black people in this country.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
He is a murderer. We all have nothing. This university everything.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Jacob Smith, one of my producers, talked to one of
the protesters, a sophomore named will Glory Tanjohn. The promise
of Princeton, she argues, is that all its students will
feel at home. This campus is for you. But everywhere
she goes, she sees pictures of Wilson.
Speaker 10 (16:08):
Everywhere in the most random places, there are rooms that
have just all these huge photos of this white man
peering down on you. Right, So when you see these
kind of things, you really feel like, what was this
university meant for me? Or is it still really meant
for white men?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Now? I happen to agree with Tanjohn. How do you
think Princeton became one of the wealthiest universities in the world.
The place is ground zero for rich white guys. Just
walk around campus. There's the carl Icon Laboratory. That's Carl Icon,
rich white male, corporate raider billionaire. There's the Frick Chemistry Laboratory.
That's Henry Clay Frick, white male robber baron. The Firestone
(16:49):
Library that's the rich white guy who started Firestone Tires.
The Bezos Center for Neural Circuit Dynamics, you know, the
rich white guy who founded Amazon. Look over there, it's
the Lewis Center for the Arts. That's Peter Lewis, the
white guy who started Progressive Insurance. The John Scully Center
for the Neuroscience of Mind and Behavior. Scully a rich
(17:10):
white guy. Not to be confused, by the way, with
the other John Scully, a rich white guy who used
to run Apple. This is the even richer John Scully
who manages billions of dollars on Wall Street. Do I
need to go on Rockefeller Hall, richest white guy ever.
Of course, there's also Emma B. Bloomberg Hall. Emma Bloomberg
(17:32):
not a white guy, except wait, she's the daughter of
Michael Bloomberg. Super super like forty three billion dollar rich
white guy. They don't hide their identities at Princeton. They
put their identities on every single building on campus. A
few weeks after the students sit in, there was a
(17:53):
town hall meeting on the Princeton campus to discuss whether
or not to change the name of the Wilson School.
Speaker 10 (17:58):
I really hope that people really think about why we
are so tied to this name, like what really changes
if we change the name.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
It was held at the Richardson Auditorium, lots of dark
wood in stone tapestries on the wall. By the way,
a building named in honor of David B. Richardson, class
of thirty three, usefully described in the Princeton promotional literature
as a quote lifelong enthusiast of classical music and a
successful lawyer and investor. Another rich white guy. Think about it,
(18:28):
Princeton literally could not find a single place to discuss
the troubled legacy of a rich white guy that was
not named after a rich white guy. Here's the first
guy who gets up to speak.
Speaker 11 (18:39):
I'm Harvey Rothberg, class of the great class of nineteen
forty nine. I absolutely believe that the name of Woodrow
Wilson should be preserved at the head of the School
of Public and International Affairs.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Rothberg says it's important that everyone know who Wilson was
and what the man did.
Speaker 11 (19:02):
There could be a memorial plaque, engraved in bronze and
so on, which would detail in a short paragraph his
great achievements as president of this university, and in a
second paragraph his great achievements as president of the United
(19:22):
States and on the international scene as well. But there
could also be a final paragraph, a short one, which
would say something like Wilson's prejudiced views on racial matters
were undoubtedly influenced and shaped by his background and his
(19:45):
growing up in the post bellum South.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Then another alum gets up and he agrees.
Speaker 11 (19:52):
He's a giant.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
You can't just take his name off of schools or colleges.
We have to keep them. All people are flawed.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
He also likes the plack idea. But this speaker has
a quibble with a short paragraph about prejudice.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
I think it can't just say Wilson was influenced by
the prevailing more a's of the time, because a man
of his stature should have seen beyond that. And I
think some of the platforms to acknowledge that real harm
was caused to real people.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
This is what the protesters are up against. I mean,
can you believe these guys. When Wilson took office as president,
the Federal Civil Service was one of the only institutions
in Washington that was integrated. Blacks had jobs next to whites.
One of the first things Wilson does is reverse that policy.
Lots of black federal workers get fired, and it becomes
(20:52):
really hard for educated African Americans to get a job
in Washington. And when a delegation of black professionals comes
to him to complain, you know what he says to them.
Segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit and ought
to be so regarded by you, gentlemen. This is the
guy Princeton venerates. And the thing that the first two
(21:13):
speakers are arguing about is the wording of the last
paragraph of the plaque. They want to put up the
plaque as if the whole controversy were really just an
exercise in improving signage. For goodness sake, take the man's
name down. If you don't want to change the schools stationary,
just choose another Wilson. There are lots of Wilson's out
(21:34):
there who don't hate black people. Jackie Rita Russell flip
rebel Owen, how about the Owen Wilson School of Public
and International Affairs. But the only way people like this
are going to listen to the protesters is if they
think the protesters care about Princeton, care about Princeton the
way it is. They'll accept generosity only if it comes
(21:58):
with some orthodoxy. They want some acknowledgment that the protesters
appreciate what they've been given, some concession that the rich
white guys who make them so uncomfortable also made it
possible for them to attend a school that looks like Versailles,
if Versailles, by some accident of history, had been built
not outside of Paris, but between Trenton and Newark, New Jersey.
(22:22):
But instead, what do they hear?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
This university owes us everything.
Speaker 12 (22:27):
I walked around on this campus understanding that this was
built on the backs of my people, and I owe
none of you guys anything.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
We owe white people nothing, and not for the for
the evilness and.
Speaker 12 (22:38):
A white hatred in this country, we would not have
to be fighting for our rights.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
All of this is mine. My people built this place.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
She's angry, she's passionate. Maybe right now she regrets her
choice of words when I was an angry young student
a generation ago. I ended up regretting my words. But
I went to school before every emotional outburst got immortalized
on YouTube, and those words are what every crotchety old
Princeton alum heard when they went online. All of this
(23:08):
is mine. How do you think they felt when they
heard that or some version of this.
Speaker 10 (23:15):
I don't feel welcomes when you walk on this campus
and you see the name of POJOA. Wilson on the
graduate building, right will.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Glory Tanjohn complaining about the privileged white guys peering down
on her. But she chose to go to Princeton Ground
zero for the privileged white guy. It's not like the
school covered over the names on those buildings when she
came for her campus visit. She's basically saying that the
school I chose to attend, the school that makes no
attempt to hide what it is and what it stands for,
(23:45):
is not I suddenly realize a place that makes me
feel comfortable, and so I want to change it. These
are not arguments that are going to convince anyone. I
don't need to tell you what happens after a decent
interval A few months later, the Wilson Legacy Review Committee
(24:06):
comes out with the university's decision. The head of the
committee says, at the end of the day, what we
learned was that Wilson was a complicated and flawed individual.
But when you look at the pluses and minuses, we
didn't feel that the minuses were enough to eliminate his
name a whitewash. Here's what the protesters should have done. Instead,
(24:30):
they should have said, Wilson's name makes us so uncomfortable
that we're not coming back next semester unless you change it,
and we're going to tell other perspective Princeton students, minority
and otherwise to do the same. Instead of talking about
what they were owed by Princeton, they should have talked
about what they were willing to give up for Princeton.
(24:53):
I am willing to give up my position at the
New Jersey Versailles in order to make the school a
better place. That's how much I care about Princeton. Generosity
mixed with orthodoxy, Now would that have worked idea? But
the best and brightest standing up and saying I'm giving
(25:14):
up my place at one of the world's great universities
in order to save it from itself. Certainly has a
better shot than a sleepover in the president's office. Yes,
it would have been a costly strategy. It would have
required a real sacrifice. That's why generous orthodoxy is so hard.
(25:43):
When he was twenty nine, Phil Wenger fell in love
with a man named Steve. They'd been together ever since.
Then about ten years ago, Gene Robinson became the first
openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church, and Phil and
Steve found themselves a new spiritual home.
Speaker 8 (26:01):
I was confirmed and joined the Episcopal Church, and I
invited mom and dad to come and participate in that,
and a couple of other siblings came, and after I
rejoined the church, my father could hardly stop weeping his
tears of joy.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
When a state at Pennsylvania legalized gay marriage in twenty fourteen,
Phil and Steve raced down to the courthouse to apply
for their marriage license. They were a second in.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
Line, and the couple in front of us offered to
let us go first, but we let them go first
because we knew each other.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Then they had a big party at the Hamilton Club
in downtown Lancaster as they waited for their marriage certificate.
Invited four hundred people. Phil's rector from the Saint James
Episcopal Church, performed a ceremony. Phil had his father say
a blessing at the end.
Speaker 8 (26:49):
But afterward he shared with me that he sort of
was a little bit envious that I had not asked
him to actually marry us. So as soon as we
got the wedding certificate, and as soon as I knew
we were going to get married, I went to Dad.
I said, would you be willing to do this officially,
sign our wedding certificate, our marriagetif and would you be
(27:10):
willing to do the vows with the two of us?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They gathered in Phil's backyard, Phil Steve, two witnesses, Chester
and his wife Sarah Jane. I asked Chester Wenger about
that day, why would it matter to him that someone
else would officiate at his son's wedding.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
He told me that the mayor offered to marry him.
I was his father, and I was an ordained clergy
in our church. And I didn't say a word. I
just waited quietly, and when he asked, I said sure.
So I was I appreciate that he let me do that,
(27:53):
and signed the certificate.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
With that act, Chester Wenger made his family whole. He
welcomed his son back into the fold of family and
religious community. But he knew what that meant. It meant
that he had broken the rules of his own church,
which do not acknowledge same sex marriages. There was no
work around this time, like when he had women preach
in the pulpit of Blossom Hill.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
They had to discipline, and so they lifted my credentials.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
He was no longer I'm at a night pastor. You've
had credentials as a clergyman for se many years, since
nineteen forty eight. How did it feel to be stripped
of them?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
It didn't make any difference to me, because I'm the
same person I am. I'm respected in my congregation. I
don't intend to marry anybody else. I don't intend to
be an authority for anyone. I just have a heritage
life that I've lived. So they took away something that
(28:55):
I'll never use anyway.
Speaker 8 (28:58):
I did think you might want to marry one of
your great grandchildren someday.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
He laughs. But of course it made a difference to him.
It made all the difference in the world. He gave
up his profession, his position within the church, his identity,
so he could officiate at the marriage of his son.
He sacrificed, He gave something up because his son had
been excluded from the world of church and family for
(29:27):
a Mennonite, the most grievous kind of harm.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
And he's my child, He's my son, precious, precious child.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Then Chesterwenger wrote his letter, an open letter to the
Mennonite Church, the letter that went viral, written by the
man who wasn't even sure what viral meant. It's a
long letter, but here are the two sentences that struck
me the most. When my wife and I read the
Bible with today's fractured, anxious church in mind, we ask,
(30:05):
what is Jesus calling us to do with those sons
and daughters who among the most despised people in the world,
in all races and communities. What would Jesus do with
our sons and daughters who are bullied, homeless, sexually abused,
and driven to suicide at far higher rates than our
heterosexual children. That's generous, Chester Wenger, open to seeing the
(30:30):
world in new ways, but there's no anger in his letter.
Alongside the generosity is orthodoxy respect for the body. He
is trying to heal. He goes on to say that
he reported his transgression to the church leadership himself. He
told them what he had done, and they responded, and
(30:52):
these are his words with grace filled pastoral listening. And
then he writes, I am at peace with their decision
and understand their need to take this action. Chester Wenger
(31:17):
is going to win. Maybe not right away, but he'll
win because he makes plain not just how beautiful, generous
orthodox he is, but how powerful, which is something that
everyone who stands up in protest needs to remember. You
must respect the body you are trying to heal.
Speaker 11 (31:37):
Are you going to.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Read something to his Chester adverse?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I thought I wanted to read from Romans. It's very familiar.
For I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
It is the power of God for salvation to everyone
who has faith. The Gospel is open. I just think
(32:04):
that's so precious.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
You've been listening to Revisionist History. If you like what
you've heard, do us a favor and rate us on
iTunes it helps. You can get more information about this
and other episodes at Revisionististory dot com or on your
favorite podcast app. Our show is produced by me LaBelle,
Roxanne Scott and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton.
(32:39):
Music is composed by Luis Kira and Taka Yasuzawa. Flon
Williams is our engineer and our fact checker is Michelle
Sarraka Panalty Management team Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg.
I'm Malcolm Gladwell.
Host
Malcolm Gladwell
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