July 13, 2016 • 30 mins
Bowdoin College and Vassar College are two elite private schools that compete for the same students. But one of those schools is trying hard to address the problem of rich and poor in American society—and paying a high price. The other is making that problem worse—and reaping rewards as a result.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The first week I arrived, I was met at the
back door by local folks who were bringing in flats
of blueberries, and it was just it was remarkable.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
That's Ken Cardon speaking. He's the executive chef at Bowden
College in Maine. In the world of American colleges, Chef
Cardon's food holds a special place.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So you've consistently make the top nomber one spot on
the lists of best college food. What are a couple
of things that you think sets Boden apart?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And that's Jacob Smith, one of my producers. He went
up to Maine for Revisionist History's first culinary investigation.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Can you just describe what we're looking at? Here?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Directly below us is a salad bar, and you'll notice
in the center of the salad bar there's several prepared salads, entrees, salads,
and then you have your make your own areas. To
the right and left, there's homemade soups in vegan options,
there's fresh fruits and desserts, and then you'll see there's
condiments and toppings, and we actually make our own peanut
(01:20):
butter and bake our own breads, and that's all available
at every meal.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
My guess is your college wasn't like this. Mine certainly wasn't.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And as you can see, we always have a vegan
and vegetarian item for our hot soups, and today a
favorite for launch is a hot turkey sandwich in arizo
and tofu salad.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I worked in my college cafeteria as an undergrad, and
just remembering that fact now is bringing the smell of
the dining hall wafting back grease, disinfectant, aging, mayonnaise, cold
fried eggs, all in some horrible combination that was the
nineteen eighties. I don't think that anyone properly understood back
then how crucial healthy eating was to a positive learning environment.
(02:06):
Bodin is in a whole different class like Paradise.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
The deli special today is a smashed chickpea, avocado and
pesto sandwich, and we have a faro salad with aspiragus
and parmesan.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Cool. So can we take a look at the kitchen?
Are we able to go back there?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
As you can see if you look down right here
at at this area, we're preparing fresh rosemary is one
of the ingredients in tonight's dinner, and they're cutting chicken,
so everything really is done from scratch.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It has that for us, all.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Touch, fresh rosemary and the personal touch. But here's what
I want to talk about. The food at Bowden is
actually a problem, a moral problem. I don't mean this
in any way as a criticism of people like Ken Cardon.
He's very, very good at what he does. Jacob, my producer,
(02:58):
is a massive foodie and he was impressed. It takes
a lot to impress Jacob. Not do I mean that
people students in particular shouldn't eat properly. They should. The
point is at every choice we make, even if it's
the right choice at that moment, has larger consequences, some
of them unexpected and paradoxical, and Ken Cardon's amazing food
(03:20):
is one of those things. My name is Malcolm Glauwell.
Welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things forgotten or misunderstood.
This is actually episode two of a little three part
mini series I've dropped into the middle of Revisionist History.
(03:41):
It's a re examination of one of the most fundamental
ideas in American life that if you have some ability
and work hard, you can make it to the top.
The episode before this was about a kid named Carlos,
a brilliant kid, and just how many obstacles stand in
the way of his making it out of south central
Los Angeles. This episode is about what it takes for
(04:02):
a poor kid to get a good college degree, and
strange as it may sound, campus food at a place
like Bowden is a big part of that problem. The
best way to understand this is to compare Boden with
one of its competitors, Vassar College. Vassar is in Poughkeepsie,
just north of New York City. It's a lot like
Boden in many ways. They're both small, elite Northeastern Liberal
(04:25):
arts colleges. Lots of students apply to both schools. They're
in the same category, but there are also some differences.
Vassar is a little bigger and edgier, a lot more
dyed hair and tattoos. Boden is smaller and preppier. Boden
also has more money, not a lot more, but enough
that it matters. And then there's the issue of food.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
How's the food at Vassar? What you say, food? It
could be better, you know, there's always room for improvement.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
The Saldar always makes me kind of sad like one
time I was eating like a spinach kale stirfry that
was prepared and I may or may not have found
like an industrial size staple in it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
The president of Vassar College is a woman named Catherine Hill.
She's an economist by training. Tall, gracious, distinguished, a touch
of gray, what you would expect from an academic leader.
We met in her office on the Vassar campus, which
is full of lots of Gothic greystone buildings and creaky
oak staircases, huge double sash windows, ancient rugs, all very
(05:32):
nineteenth century. Before she was at Vassar, Catherine Hill was
at Williams College, about two hours north of Poughkeepsie. She
was the provost. While she was there, Princeton dramatically expanded
its financial aid, and suddenly every liberal arts college in
the country felt it had to examine its policies as well.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
So we had to figure out what we were going
to do in response to Princeton announcing that they were
going to move away from loans.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So Hill teams up with another economist and starts digging
around in the data from the admissions office.
Speaker 6 (06:03):
A colleague of mine, Gordon Winston, and I asked the question,
do we know what we're actually asking families to pay
to come to Williams. So we'd always assumed that we
were doing just, you know, a great job with talented
kids from all different economic backgrounds. And what we found
out was that we were asking students from lower income
quintils to pay an awfully high share of their family
(06:24):
income to come to attend. And we were also finding
out that we weren't getting many, not surprisingly, you know,
I think we were finding that we were asking families
in the bottom forty percent of the income distribution to
pay about fifty percent of their family incomes free tax.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
He'll saying that at that time, if the family of
a poor, smart kid wanted their child to go to Williams,
that have to spend half their income on tuition half.
That's why there were so few poor kids at Williams.
So while she's at Williams, the school starts making its
financial aid a lot more generous, then He'll becomes president
of Vassar.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
Vasser was an institution that was committed to these kinds
of issues, and when we looked at the actual data,
it turned out that compared to some of our peer
schools we, in fact, weren't all that either in terms
of socioeconomic diversity or racial diversity.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So she decides to change Vassar's priorities. Students from the
poorest families in the United States get a small five
thousand dollars grand from the federal government called a pel grant.
Hill decides she wants to accept way more pel grant
students Advassor. So, what are you spending on financially?
Speaker 6 (07:28):
We're spending about sixty million dollars sixty million. Yeah, and
when I started to know six it was about twenty
five million. I see. So it's basically it's about double.
And we have about twenty three percent pell grant recipients,
which makes us, I think, the highest amongst a very
large group of schools and the lowest income.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Kids and pale. When you started, what was was it?
I think I read eleven percent when you started.
Speaker 6 (07:52):
Yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not even sure we
were tracking it, but it was in the low teens.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That was ten years ago. Since then, Hill has discovered
two things. The first is exactly what we talked about
in the last episode. There's a ton of smart, poor
kids out there. You can easily double the number that
you accepted a school like Vassar and not compromise your
academic standards. Okay, that's the first thing, the good news.
Then there's the bad news.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
I think a lot of school said, okay, so yeah,
they're out there, let's see if we can find some
and recruit more. I think over time, I've come to
realize that the main constraint, despite commitments on the parts
of schools to do this, the reality is is if
you take a talented, low income kid, you've got to
offer significantly more financial aid. And every dollar that you
(08:41):
spend on financial aid is a dollar that you don't
have to spend on something else, and that is ultimately
the real challenge.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Tuition at Vassar including room and board is sixty two
thousand dollars a year. You let in some poor kid
for free, you're out somewhin range of sixty two thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Give me an.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Example of the kind of trade offs you've had to
deal with because you wanted to increase your financial aid package.
Speaker 6 (09:05):
It would be spending more to renovate old dormitories and bathrooms.
It would be better food in the dining hall. You know,
many of those things are really good things, and you're
always making trade offs.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah in the margin, did you catch that better food
in the dining hall? Right after my producer Jacob went
to Bowden to check out their food, he went to Vassar.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
How often do you eat there?
Speaker 7 (09:35):
About twice a day?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Jacob is talking to a sophomore advassor named Amanda.
Speaker 7 (09:40):
So, lunch and dinner usually I do like a quick
breakfast in the dinner because breakfast is notoriously their best meal.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
And what about dinner? What's dinner look like?
Speaker 7 (09:51):
Pretty terrifying? Sometimes it's weird. It oscillates between Sometimes they
have really good ethnic food. Actually they'll surprisingly put together
a very good meal, and then there's other nights where
you get there and it's kind of like pasta very sad,
like neat sandwich thing you're not really sure about, and
like pizza, usually end.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Up with soup that night.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
It's yeah, what.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Would you say?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Like The most common complaints about the food from students.
Speaker 7 (10:21):
Usually lack of variety of taste. Also, some people it's
kind of gross to talk about, but like claim it
really gives them indigestion, Like they're not happy with the
quality of.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
The food by indingestion. Do you mean it has like
a laxative effect? Is that the complaint because I've heard
that elsewhere.
Speaker 7 (10:37):
Yeah, that's one hundred percent what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
If you could step in and make like sweeping changes
to dining at vast or what would you change.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
Sweeping changes? I mean my thing is like, I know,
I'm kind of spoiled because I'm from California, so I'm
used to just a higher quality of food in general,
because like the soudbar always makes me kind of sad,
like or like the nights where they're like we have
guacamolan and it's like literally just like this pasty disgusting,
like just you know, they obviously just purade some like
unripe avocados.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Vassar has terrible food. Boden practically has a Michelin star.
Two otherwise almost identical schools that, on this one measure
couldn't be more different, and why because Boden doesn't spend
nearly as much on financial aid as Vassar does. Now,
(11:32):
I don't want to single out Boden as some kind
of moral villain. There are lots of private colleges in
the US that do a far worse job than Boden
at educating low income students. But just listen to these numbers.
Twenty three percent of Vassar's undergraduates are on pelgrants. That is,
they come from the poorest part of American society. At Boden,
(11:52):
just thirteen percent of students are on pelgrants, so just
over half as many as at Vassar. The New York
Times does something called an Access Index, which measures how
good a job a college does at opening its doors
to low income students. The way the index works, an
average score is one. If you do better than average,
your score is greater than one. Among all American universities
(12:15):
and colleges measured, Vassar comes in eighth with a score
of one point three six, behind only the University of
Florida and the big schools in the University of California system,
it is the most open and accessible private school in
the land. Boden is fifty first at one point zero five,
just above average. If you want an example of a
(12:37):
school that does really badly in the New York Times Index,
New York University NYU is a point six y five,
which ranks it one hundred and fifty six, which is appalling. Now,
why does this matter? We don't want all schools to
be the same. What's wrong with a system where one
(12:57):
school spends its marginal dollar on gathering the most interesting
and diverse group of undergraduates possible, and then another school
spends its marginal dollar on artisanal cheese. It shouldn't matter, right,
But if you dig into the way the university system
works in the United States, you discover that it matters
a lot. Boden and Vassar are connected. I'm back at Vassar.
(13:24):
I'm sitting in a small conference room in the main
administration building. In front of me is Robert Walton, Vassar's
vice president of finance. Vasser might be the home of
the edgy and the tattooed, but that's not Robert Walton.
He's a numbers guy, white hair, carefully trim beard. He's
got the school's budget open in front of him.
Speaker 8 (13:44):
So if we look at our total budget sort of
what we actually spend, it's about one hundred and sirventy
five million dollars. And if you think about it in
just big groups, about two thirds of that are fees
that we collect from different sources, and about a one
third of that budget comes from the endowment.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, now the tuition bucket. How does that break down?
Speaker 8 (14:07):
You know, we are like many schools like we have
sort of a barbell effect. That's a slightly inelegant metaphor,
but it works. We tend to have a grouping at
each end, those who have a full ability to pay
and those who have low ability to pay.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
The math looks like this. There are two four hundred
and fifty undergraduates Advassor. A thousand of them are on
the wealthy end of the barbell. They pay full tuition
or close to it. That comes to sixty million dollars
a year in revenue. The rest of the students at
the other end of the barbell pay about half that much.
They're the ones receiving some kind of financial aid. There's
(14:46):
way more of them, but they contribute much less to
the bottom line. So Vassor makes up for that lost
revenue with money drawn from the endowment. I've grossly simplified
matters to the point where if Robert Walton hears this,
he'll cringe. But that's basically how the finances at Vassor work.
A couple of questions before you went, you made this shift,
(15:06):
which was what roughly ten.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
Years ago, roughly two thousand and seven. It happened mid
year sort of so so hard.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
That's Marian Begemann, Vassar's head of strategic planning. She's sitting
next to Walton formal business suit. What would your percentage
of full pay have been back then? In the earlier era, roughly.
Speaker 7 (15:24):
We were around eighty, no, seventy five to eighty let's.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Say, seventy five to eighty percent of students paid full
tuition back then. This is an important point. The Barbelle
used to be heavily weighted on the high full paying
end and have almost nothing on the other end. When
President Hill transforms Vassar a decade ago, she basically switches that.
She replaces hundreds of full paying students with students who
(15:50):
pay very little. As a result, Vassar goes from a
place that quite comfortably supported itself on tuition revenue to
a place that has to rely really heavily on its
endowment to make the numbers work. Now, Vassar is wealthy
enough to pull that off. It all adds up, but barely.
They have no wiggle room. So the one thousand kids
(16:11):
who pay full tuition Vasser needs every single one. Without them,
everything falls apart financially. I asked Walton, what would happen
if the number of full paying students dropped? If even
fifty of that one thousand went elsewhere.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
That would be bad. That would be bad.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
No wiggle room. Okay, now about the endowment once again.
Boden College is a good comparison. Boden starts twenty fifteen
with an endowment of one point four billion dollars. They
make a healthy return on that, which they divide up.
A quarter of it goes to pay for financial aid,
(16:50):
three quarters of it goes back into the endowment. That
three quarters incidentally comes to one hundred and twenty million dollars.
So to put it another way, Boden had one hundred
and twenty million dollar cushion last year. What I've just
described explains how endowments et elite universities keep getting bigger
and bigger. They earn way more on their endowment every
(17:11):
year than they need to balance the books. This is
a bit of an aside, but here's a really extreme
example of the endowment cushion. Princeton. They start twenty fourteen
with twenty point six billion dollars in the bank. Let
me repeat that, twenty point six billion dollars in the bank.
They make two point one billion on their investments over
(17:33):
the course of the year. After they've covered their costs
and paid for all their financial aid, they had seven
hundred million dollars left over, and after you add in
all the other money they raised, Princeton ends the year
with an endowment of twenty two point seven billion dollars.
Princeton is a perpetual motion cash machine. There is literally
(17:54):
no way they can ever run out of money. If
they wanted to build a half a billion dollar dormitory
with marble staircases, mahogany floors, and solid gold bathroom fixtures,
they could pay for it aut of petty cash and
still bank two hundred million dollars. That's wiggle room. By
(18:16):
the way, given that fact, you might wonder why anyone
would ever give money to Princeton. Good question. I have
way more to say about this subject. That's what next
week's episode is about. But let's go back to Vassar.
Things are a lot more complicated there. They have about
(18:36):
a billion dollars in their endowment. That's less than Boden,
but for Vassor. To cover their expenses, they need to
take out significantly more from their endowment than Boden does,
so they don't have the same kind of cushion. Last year,
In fact, Vassar had a bad year and they ended
up withdrawing more than they earned. You can't keep doing
that year in and year out and survive as an institution.
(18:59):
No wiggle room. So what are Vassor's other options. Well,
they could get smaller. One of the reasons Boden is
in such better shape is that Boden has a only
eighteen hundred students. Vassar is more than a third larger.
If Vasser were boded in size, then suddenly they have
six hundred and fifty fewer students to subsidize with their endowment.
(19:20):
If I said to you, completely hypothetically, I want you
to run this college in such a way as to
maximize the amount of financial resources available, would you shrink
the student body?
Speaker 8 (19:33):
In a perfect world, that would be the technique I
would prefer.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
That's Vassar's VP Robert Walton. Again Note that he says
in a perfect world, but of course that's the last
thing Vasser would ever do. It would be totally self defeating.
The whole point of Catherine Hill's transformation of Vasser was
to try and educate as many poor smart kids as possible,
because America has a huge problem with not providing opportunity
(19:58):
for poor smart kids. If you cut six hundred and
fifty spots, then you're part of the problem.
Speaker 8 (20:03):
Again, I'm a fiscal conservative, but she's convinced me. We
don't pay any taxes in terms of to the fads
of the states, so we are a tax subsidized entity.
So one would logically conclude then if you have a
large endowment, you really have an obligation to provide a
public good, not just to educate the rich.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
This is something people always forget. Universities don't pay taxes.
We subsidize them. You and I. When Princeton makes that
two point four billion dollars return on their endowment, they
don't pay a dime of capital gains taxes on it.
And Walton's pointing out something really really crucial, which is
that if you get that kind of subsidy from society,
(20:47):
you're supposed to give back. Cutting six hundred and fifty
spots is not giving back. All right, how about this
cut back on faculty, bigger classes. No no, no, that
also defeats the purpose. The whole point of the Vasser
experiment is to give students of all backgrounds the best
possible education. If you make the education worse in order
(21:10):
to pay for the students who need a good education,
then you're right back where you started from. The point
of Vasser is that the best education comes when you
mix students from all backgrounds. When the child of an
investment banker sits in class next to the child of
a janitor, the two of them have a learning experience
that they could not have amongst people just like themselves.
(21:32):
That's what they're trying to protect. So what do you
do if you're Vassar and you're trying to protect that
idea of what an education is. You have only one option.
You tighten your belt as tight as you can. You
don't do anything extravagant.
Speaker 8 (21:48):
I worked with a college at one time, it was
sure going name that opened a new residence hall in
the last five years that was all singles that had
double beds.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Basically, the dorm was a high end hotel.
Speaker 8 (22:01):
You know, there are these amenities that some schools do
that are just kind of crazy and over the top.
But they do all kinds of things. You know, they
have more money for speaker series than we do. We
can't pay Bill Clinton to come and speak for three
hundred thousand that more. Prior institution did things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Bill Clinton the ultimate college amenity. The problem with belt tightening, though,
is attracting those one thousand full pay students, the ones
whose money Vassar desperately needs. Who are they They're the
children of professionals, upper middle class and upper class Manhattan,
Beverly Hills, Boston, San Francisco. They grew up privileged. They
(22:39):
have certain expectations about lifestyle. Those amenities that Bob Walton
says are kind of crazy and over the top. That's
what these kids are used to. So this is what
keeps Catherine Hill up at night. How can she keep
those wealthy kids coming to Vassar if she can't provide
them with the lifestyle that they're used to.
Speaker 6 (22:59):
We are operating in an economy right now where income
and equality has increased over the last thirty to forty years,
So we are looking to attract talented students from high
income families. These are kids who have grown up with
their own bedroom and their own bathroom and when they
come looking at college campuses, those are some of the
(23:21):
things that the families are looking for.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Rasser asks those kids to do without some of the
luxuries they were raised with, and that's a hard sell.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
Every time another school with which we compete makes a
different decision and doesn't spend it on financial aid, then
it puts us in the position of being in a
tougher position to compete for the full pay students.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh, I see. You mean if another school spends lesson
builds a fancier X and you don't have the fancy X.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
Yeah, then they're gonna take some of those kids away
from us who want the fancy X.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Hill didn't name any names, but you know who she's
talking about. She's talking about Boden and the kids she
worries that Boden will take away are the kids from
Beverly Hills in Manhattan who grew up on beautifully ripe
avocados and freshly cut rosemary. Robert Walton serves on something
called the Parents Advisory Committee at Vassar, which is basically
(24:22):
the parents of the rich kids, and he hears it
all the time.
Speaker 8 (24:25):
They come and that you know they want to talk
to the senior officers about you know, their observations. You know,
it's sort of a you know, tough love kind of meeting.
They always ask about food, They always ask about housing,
They always you.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Know, they what do they say when they bring up food?
Do they complain about food or that?
Speaker 8 (24:41):
Basically, and so my reaction is, we need to make
food better. And we actually aren't going to make food better.
But if food is really important to you, and if
housing is really important to you, don't come to vasser
That's not what we focus on. That's just not what
we're into. Yeah, that's you know, and no apologies for that.
I mean, that's just not what we do.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
This is why I said at the beginning that food
is actually a moral issue, because how long do you
think Vassar can continue to do this, to say to
parents and students, if food is really that important to you,
go somewhere else. Those kids come to Vassar for a
campus visit and eat a soggy piece of pizza. Then
(25:25):
they go to Boden where Chef Cardone is the god
of the dining hall. He's got amazing resources, a bigger
endowmented six hundred and fifty fewer students, half as many
kids on pelgrants and every day he's taking it up
a notch in a kitchen. How long can Soggi pizza
hold up against Ken Cardon. When my producer Jacob was
(25:50):
on his culinary investigation at Boden, the students talked about
the food of their school like they were in Paris.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
In the beginning of the year. That ice cream didn't
really taste that well, like it was like kind of watery,
and so I know someone wrote a complaint card, like guys,
and then now it's like so much better, like they
just fixed it.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
I've heard good things about the dessert. Is it good?
Speaker 1 (26:11):
How do you compete with this?
Speaker 4 (26:13):
On your first time campus?
Speaker 10 (26:14):
There's this lobster bake where every student on campus has
the choice of having a lobster for dinner or a
steak or a vegetarian option. It's really phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
If I like to ask you, maybe like a respective
student was coming to campus and they were asked about
the food, what would be your like your one sentence
pitch or how would you describe it?
Speaker 10 (26:33):
It's sort of indescribable in the way that you can't
explain to someone how it's always changing, and it's always fresh,
and it's always different. It pushes you to try new things,
which is I think what college is all about, which
is experimenting and reaching out to new worlds. And you
know the fact that the food here helps you do
that as well is incredible.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
I cannot get over how excited this kid is about
the food of bud. Do you think he talks this
way about his professors?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Oh if you tried things that like you wouldn't have
tried otherwise, Like what kind of meals or dishes?
Speaker 10 (27:02):
Oh wow, the other night had an egg plant parmesan pancake.
You know, I don't think I could have even told
you that was a real thing until I had it.
You know, I walked past it didn't travel, and I
went like the might as well, and it was phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I have sex, actually eggplant parmerson pancake. I mean, this
is completely absurd. This is everything that's wrong with American colleges.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
We had venison here during deer season.
Speaker 10 (27:27):
It was really just fresh, locally sourced, different kinds of
meats that I would never expect to see in a
college dining hall.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
There's only one solution. If you're looking at liberal arts colleges.
Don't go to Boden. Don't let your kids go to Boden.
Don't let your friends go to Boden. Don't give money
to Boden or to any other school that serves amazing
food in its dining home. Because every time you support
a school that spends its money on amazing food, every
(27:54):
time you cast a vote in favor of eggplant parmesan
pancakes and lobster bakes and venison during deer season, you're
making it harder and harder for someone like Catherine Hill
to create opportunities for poor kids. Suck it up and
go to Vassar. Send a message to the Bodons of
the world about what really matters.
Speaker 7 (28:15):
Fresh fruit is atrocious. Sometimes we get bananas, and then
sometimes we get strawberries or grapes, but those are like
strawberries and grapes are like those are a big deal.
Like you go steal like five cups of.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
That, so you pocket them and run out with your
pockets full of Absolutely.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Absolutely, I'm not joking.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
This is Amanda again, the Vassar sophomore who complained about
the guacamal Amanda, the spoiled Californian, as she described herself.
But I will say this for Amanda. She gets it,
she understands what's at stake. Atrocious fresh fruit is a
small price to pay for a little social justice.
Speaker 7 (28:56):
I still complain regularly about the food and whatnot, but
I just feel much better knowing that that money's going
towards something useful. I would much prefer that our school'll
be giving money to that than trying to make our
food better. You know, first case scenario, you get the
minimum meal plan and you can eat out.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You've been listening to Revisionist History. If you like what
you've heard, do us a favor and rate us on iTunes.
You can get more information about this and other episodes
at Revisionististory dot com or on your favorite podcast app.
Our show is produced by me La Belle, Roxanne Scott,
and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton. Music is
(29:50):
composed by Luis Guerra and Taka Yasuzawa. Flon Williams is
our engineer, fact checker Michelle Siraka, and the Panoply management
team Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
I I think was beer completed by the y
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The first week I arrived, I was met at the
back door by local folks who were bringing in flats
of blueberries, and it was just it was remarkable.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
That's Ken Cardon speaking. He's the executive chef at Bowden
College in Maine. In the world of American colleges, Chef
Cardon's food holds a special place.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So you've consistently make the top nomber one spot on
the lists of best college food. What are a couple
of things that you think sets Boden apart?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And that's Jacob Smith, one of my producers. He went
up to Maine for Revisionist History's first culinary investigation.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Can you just describe what we're looking at? Here?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Directly below us is a salad bar, and you'll notice
in the center of the salad bar there's several prepared salads, entrees, salads,
and then you have your make your own areas. To
the right and left, there's homemade soups in vegan options,
there's fresh fruits and desserts, and then you'll see there's
condiments and toppings, and we actually make our own peanut
(01:20):
butter and bake our own breads, and that's all available
at every meal.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
My guess is your college wasn't like this. Mine certainly wasn't.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And as you can see, we always have a vegan
and vegetarian item for our hot soups, and today a
favorite for launch is a hot turkey sandwich in arizo
and tofu salad.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I worked in my college cafeteria as an undergrad, and
just remembering that fact now is bringing the smell of
the dining hall wafting back grease, disinfectant, aging, mayonnaise, cold
fried eggs, all in some horrible combination that was the
nineteen eighties. I don't think that anyone properly understood back
then how crucial healthy eating was to a positive learning environment.
(02:06):
Bodin is in a whole different class like Paradise.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
The deli special today is a smashed chickpea, avocado and
pesto sandwich, and we have a faro salad with aspiragus
and parmesan.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Cool. So can we take a look at the kitchen?
Are we able to go back there?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
As you can see if you look down right here
at at this area, we're preparing fresh rosemary is one
of the ingredients in tonight's dinner, and they're cutting chicken,
so everything really is done from scratch.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It has that for us, all.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Touch, fresh rosemary and the personal touch. But here's what
I want to talk about. The food at Bowden is
actually a problem, a moral problem. I don't mean this
in any way as a criticism of people like Ken Cardon.
He's very, very good at what he does. Jacob, my producer,
(02:58):
is a massive foodie and he was impressed. It takes
a lot to impress Jacob. Not do I mean that
people students in particular shouldn't eat properly. They should. The
point is at every choice we make, even if it's
the right choice at that moment, has larger consequences, some
of them unexpected and paradoxical, and Ken Cardon's amazing food
(03:20):
is one of those things. My name is Malcolm Glauwell.
Welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things forgotten or misunderstood.
This is actually episode two of a little three part
mini series I've dropped into the middle of Revisionist History.
(03:41):
It's a re examination of one of the most fundamental
ideas in American life that if you have some ability
and work hard, you can make it to the top.
The episode before this was about a kid named Carlos,
a brilliant kid, and just how many obstacles stand in
the way of his making it out of south central
Los Angeles. This episode is about what it takes for
(04:02):
a poor kid to get a good college degree, and
strange as it may sound, campus food at a place
like Bowden is a big part of that problem. The
best way to understand this is to compare Boden with
one of its competitors, Vassar College. Vassar is in Poughkeepsie,
just north of New York City. It's a lot like
Boden in many ways. They're both small, elite Northeastern Liberal
(04:25):
arts colleges. Lots of students apply to both schools. They're
in the same category, but there are also some differences.
Vassar is a little bigger and edgier, a lot more
dyed hair and tattoos. Boden is smaller and preppier. Boden
also has more money, not a lot more, but enough
that it matters. And then there's the issue of food.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
How's the food at Vassar? What you say, food? It
could be better, you know, there's always room for improvement.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
The Saldar always makes me kind of sad like one
time I was eating like a spinach kale stirfry that
was prepared and I may or may not have found
like an industrial size staple in it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
The president of Vassar College is a woman named Catherine Hill.
She's an economist by training. Tall, gracious, distinguished, a touch
of gray, what you would expect from an academic leader.
We met in her office on the Vassar campus, which
is full of lots of Gothic greystone buildings and creaky
oak staircases, huge double sash windows, ancient rugs, all very
(05:32):
nineteenth century. Before she was at Vassar, Catherine Hill was
at Williams College, about two hours north of Poughkeepsie. She
was the provost. While she was there, Princeton dramatically expanded
its financial aid, and suddenly every liberal arts college in
the country felt it had to examine its policies as well.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
So we had to figure out what we were going
to do in response to Princeton announcing that they were
going to move away from loans.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So Hill teams up with another economist and starts digging
around in the data from the admissions office.
Speaker 6 (06:03):
A colleague of mine, Gordon Winston, and I asked the question,
do we know what we're actually asking families to pay
to come to Williams. So we'd always assumed that we
were doing just, you know, a great job with talented
kids from all different economic backgrounds. And what we found
out was that we were asking students from lower income
quintils to pay an awfully high share of their family
(06:24):
income to come to attend. And we were also finding
out that we weren't getting many, not surprisingly, you know,
I think we were finding that we were asking families
in the bottom forty percent of the income distribution to
pay about fifty percent of their family incomes free tax.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
He'll saying that at that time, if the family of
a poor, smart kid wanted their child to go to Williams,
that have to spend half their income on tuition half.
That's why there were so few poor kids at Williams.
So while she's at Williams, the school starts making its
financial aid a lot more generous, then He'll becomes president
of Vassar.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
Vasser was an institution that was committed to these kinds
of issues, and when we looked at the actual data,
it turned out that compared to some of our peer
schools we, in fact, weren't all that either in terms
of socioeconomic diversity or racial diversity.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So she decides to change Vassar's priorities. Students from the
poorest families in the United States get a small five
thousand dollars grand from the federal government called a pel grant.
Hill decides she wants to accept way more pel grant
students Advassor. So, what are you spending on financially?
Speaker 6 (07:28):
We're spending about sixty million dollars sixty million. Yeah, and
when I started to know six it was about twenty
five million. I see. So it's basically it's about double.
And we have about twenty three percent pell grant recipients,
which makes us, I think, the highest amongst a very
large group of schools and the lowest income.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Kids and pale. When you started, what was was it?
I think I read eleven percent when you started.
Speaker 6 (07:52):
Yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not even sure we
were tracking it, but it was in the low teens.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That was ten years ago. Since then, Hill has discovered
two things. The first is exactly what we talked about
in the last episode. There's a ton of smart, poor
kids out there. You can easily double the number that
you accepted a school like Vassar and not compromise your
academic standards. Okay, that's the first thing, the good news.
Then there's the bad news.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
I think a lot of school said, okay, so yeah,
they're out there, let's see if we can find some
and recruit more. I think over time, I've come to
realize that the main constraint, despite commitments on the parts
of schools to do this, the reality is is if
you take a talented, low income kid, you've got to
offer significantly more financial aid. And every dollar that you
(08:41):
spend on financial aid is a dollar that you don't
have to spend on something else, and that is ultimately
the real challenge.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Tuition at Vassar including room and board is sixty two
thousand dollars a year. You let in some poor kid
for free, you're out somewhin range of sixty two thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Give me an.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Example of the kind of trade offs you've had to
deal with because you wanted to increase your financial aid package.
Speaker 6 (09:05):
It would be spending more to renovate old dormitories and bathrooms.
It would be better food in the dining hall. You know,
many of those things are really good things, and you're
always making trade offs.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah in the margin, did you catch that better food
in the dining hall? Right after my producer Jacob went
to Bowden to check out their food, he went to Vassar.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
How often do you eat there?
Speaker 7 (09:35):
About twice a day?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Jacob is talking to a sophomore advassor named Amanda.
Speaker 7 (09:40):
So, lunch and dinner usually I do like a quick
breakfast in the dinner because breakfast is notoriously their best meal.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
And what about dinner? What's dinner look like?
Speaker 7 (09:51):
Pretty terrifying? Sometimes it's weird. It oscillates between Sometimes they
have really good ethnic food. Actually they'll surprisingly put together
a very good meal, and then there's other nights where
you get there and it's kind of like pasta very sad,
like neat sandwich thing you're not really sure about, and
like pizza, usually end.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Up with soup that night.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
It's yeah, what.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Would you say?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Like The most common complaints about the food from students.
Speaker 7 (10:21):
Usually lack of variety of taste. Also, some people it's
kind of gross to talk about, but like claim it
really gives them indigestion, Like they're not happy with the
quality of.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
The food by indingestion. Do you mean it has like
a laxative effect? Is that the complaint because I've heard
that elsewhere.
Speaker 7 (10:37):
Yeah, that's one hundred percent what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
If you could step in and make like sweeping changes
to dining at vast or what would you change.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
Sweeping changes? I mean my thing is like, I know,
I'm kind of spoiled because I'm from California, so I'm
used to just a higher quality of food in general,
because like the soudbar always makes me kind of sad,
like or like the nights where they're like we have
guacamolan and it's like literally just like this pasty disgusting,
like just you know, they obviously just purade some like
unripe avocados.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Vassar has terrible food. Boden practically has a Michelin star.
Two otherwise almost identical schools that, on this one measure
couldn't be more different, and why because Boden doesn't spend
nearly as much on financial aid as Vassar does. Now,
(11:32):
I don't want to single out Boden as some kind
of moral villain. There are lots of private colleges in
the US that do a far worse job than Boden
at educating low income students. But just listen to these numbers.
Twenty three percent of Vassar's undergraduates are on pelgrants. That is,
they come from the poorest part of American society. At Boden,
(11:52):
just thirteen percent of students are on pelgrants, so just
over half as many as at Vassar. The New York
Times does something called an Access Index, which measures how
good a job a college does at opening its doors
to low income students. The way the index works, an
average score is one. If you do better than average,
your score is greater than one. Among all American universities
(12:15):
and colleges measured, Vassar comes in eighth with a score
of one point three six, behind only the University of
Florida and the big schools in the University of California system,
it is the most open and accessible private school in
the land. Boden is fifty first at one point zero five,
just above average. If you want an example of a
(12:37):
school that does really badly in the New York Times Index,
New York University NYU is a point six y five,
which ranks it one hundred and fifty six, which is appalling. Now,
why does this matter? We don't want all schools to
be the same. What's wrong with a system where one
(12:57):
school spends its marginal dollar on gathering the most interesting
and diverse group of undergraduates possible, and then another school
spends its marginal dollar on artisanal cheese. It shouldn't matter, right,
But if you dig into the way the university system
works in the United States, you discover that it matters
a lot. Boden and Vassar are connected. I'm back at Vassar.
(13:24):
I'm sitting in a small conference room in the main
administration building. In front of me is Robert Walton, Vassar's
vice president of finance. Vasser might be the home of
the edgy and the tattooed, but that's not Robert Walton.
He's a numbers guy, white hair, carefully trim beard. He's
got the school's budget open in front of him.
Speaker 8 (13:44):
So if we look at our total budget sort of
what we actually spend, it's about one hundred and sirventy
five million dollars. And if you think about it in
just big groups, about two thirds of that are fees
that we collect from different sources, and about a one
third of that budget comes from the endowment.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, now the tuition bucket. How does that break down?
Speaker 8 (14:07):
You know, we are like many schools like we have
sort of a barbell effect. That's a slightly inelegant metaphor,
but it works. We tend to have a grouping at
each end, those who have a full ability to pay
and those who have low ability to pay.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
The math looks like this. There are two four hundred
and fifty undergraduates Advassor. A thousand of them are on
the wealthy end of the barbell. They pay full tuition
or close to it. That comes to sixty million dollars
a year in revenue. The rest of the students at
the other end of the barbell pay about half that much.
They're the ones receiving some kind of financial aid. There's
(14:46):
way more of them, but they contribute much less to
the bottom line. So Vassor makes up for that lost
revenue with money drawn from the endowment. I've grossly simplified
matters to the point where if Robert Walton hears this,
he'll cringe. But that's basically how the finances at Vassor work.
A couple of questions before you went, you made this shift,
(15:06):
which was what roughly ten.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
Years ago, roughly two thousand and seven. It happened mid
year sort of so so hard.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
That's Marian Begemann, Vassar's head of strategic planning. She's sitting
next to Walton formal business suit. What would your percentage
of full pay have been back then? In the earlier era, roughly.
Speaker 7 (15:24):
We were around eighty, no, seventy five to eighty let's.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Say, seventy five to eighty percent of students paid full
tuition back then. This is an important point. The Barbelle
used to be heavily weighted on the high full paying
end and have almost nothing on the other end. When
President Hill transforms Vassar a decade ago, she basically switches that.
She replaces hundreds of full paying students with students who
(15:50):
pay very little. As a result, Vassar goes from a
place that quite comfortably supported itself on tuition revenue to
a place that has to rely really heavily on its
endowment to make the numbers work. Now, Vassar is wealthy
enough to pull that off. It all adds up, but barely.
They have no wiggle room. So the one thousand kids
(16:11):
who pay full tuition Vasser needs every single one. Without them,
everything falls apart financially. I asked Walton, what would happen
if the number of full paying students dropped? If even
fifty of that one thousand went elsewhere.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
That would be bad. That would be bad.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
No wiggle room. Okay, now about the endowment once again.
Boden College is a good comparison. Boden starts twenty fifteen
with an endowment of one point four billion dollars. They
make a healthy return on that, which they divide up.
A quarter of it goes to pay for financial aid,
(16:50):
three quarters of it goes back into the endowment. That
three quarters incidentally comes to one hundred and twenty million dollars.
So to put it another way, Boden had one hundred
and twenty million dollar cushion last year. What I've just
described explains how endowments et elite universities keep getting bigger
and bigger. They earn way more on their endowment every
(17:11):
year than they need to balance the books. This is
a bit of an aside, but here's a really extreme
example of the endowment cushion. Princeton. They start twenty fourteen
with twenty point six billion dollars in the bank. Let
me repeat that, twenty point six billion dollars in the bank.
They make two point one billion on their investments over
(17:33):
the course of the year. After they've covered their costs
and paid for all their financial aid, they had seven
hundred million dollars left over, and after you add in
all the other money they raised, Princeton ends the year
with an endowment of twenty two point seven billion dollars.
Princeton is a perpetual motion cash machine. There is literally
(17:54):
no way they can ever run out of money. If
they wanted to build a half a billion dollar dormitory
with marble staircases, mahogany floors, and solid gold bathroom fixtures,
they could pay for it aut of petty cash and
still bank two hundred million dollars. That's wiggle room. By
(18:16):
the way, given that fact, you might wonder why anyone
would ever give money to Princeton. Good question. I have
way more to say about this subject. That's what next
week's episode is about. But let's go back to Vassar.
Things are a lot more complicated there. They have about
(18:36):
a billion dollars in their endowment. That's less than Boden,
but for Vassor. To cover their expenses, they need to
take out significantly more from their endowment than Boden does,
so they don't have the same kind of cushion. Last year,
In fact, Vassar had a bad year and they ended
up withdrawing more than they earned. You can't keep doing
that year in and year out and survive as an institution.
(18:59):
No wiggle room. So what are Vassor's other options. Well,
they could get smaller. One of the reasons Boden is
in such better shape is that Boden has a only
eighteen hundred students. Vassar is more than a third larger.
If Vasser were boded in size, then suddenly they have
six hundred and fifty fewer students to subsidize with their endowment.
(19:20):
If I said to you, completely hypothetically, I want you
to run this college in such a way as to
maximize the amount of financial resources available, would you shrink
the student body?
Speaker 8 (19:33):
In a perfect world, that would be the technique I
would prefer.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
That's Vassar's VP Robert Walton. Again Note that he says
in a perfect world, but of course that's the last
thing Vasser would ever do. It would be totally self defeating.
The whole point of Catherine Hill's transformation of Vasser was
to try and educate as many poor smart kids as possible,
because America has a huge problem with not providing opportunity
(19:58):
for poor smart kids. If you cut six hundred and
fifty spots, then you're part of the problem.
Speaker 8 (20:03):
Again, I'm a fiscal conservative, but she's convinced me. We
don't pay any taxes in terms of to the fads
of the states, so we are a tax subsidized entity.
So one would logically conclude then if you have a
large endowment, you really have an obligation to provide a
public good, not just to educate the rich.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
This is something people always forget. Universities don't pay taxes.
We subsidize them. You and I. When Princeton makes that
two point four billion dollars return on their endowment, they
don't pay a dime of capital gains taxes on it.
And Walton's pointing out something really really crucial, which is
that if you get that kind of subsidy from society,
(20:47):
you're supposed to give back. Cutting six hundred and fifty
spots is not giving back. All right, how about this
cut back on faculty, bigger classes. No no, no, that
also defeats the purpose. The whole point of the Vasser
experiment is to give students of all backgrounds the best
possible education. If you make the education worse in order
(21:10):
to pay for the students who need a good education,
then you're right back where you started from. The point
of Vasser is that the best education comes when you
mix students from all backgrounds. When the child of an
investment banker sits in class next to the child of
a janitor, the two of them have a learning experience
that they could not have amongst people just like themselves.
(21:32):
That's what they're trying to protect. So what do you
do if you're Vassar and you're trying to protect that
idea of what an education is. You have only one option.
You tighten your belt as tight as you can. You
don't do anything extravagant.
Speaker 8 (21:48):
I worked with a college at one time, it was
sure going name that opened a new residence hall in
the last five years that was all singles that had
double beds.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Basically, the dorm was a high end hotel.
Speaker 8 (22:01):
You know, there are these amenities that some schools do
that are just kind of crazy and over the top.
But they do all kinds of things. You know, they
have more money for speaker series than we do. We
can't pay Bill Clinton to come and speak for three
hundred thousand that more. Prior institution did things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Bill Clinton the ultimate college amenity. The problem with belt tightening, though,
is attracting those one thousand full pay students, the ones
whose money Vassar desperately needs. Who are they They're the
children of professionals, upper middle class and upper class Manhattan,
Beverly Hills, Boston, San Francisco. They grew up privileged. They
(22:39):
have certain expectations about lifestyle. Those amenities that Bob Walton
says are kind of crazy and over the top. That's
what these kids are used to. So this is what
keeps Catherine Hill up at night. How can she keep
those wealthy kids coming to Vassar if she can't provide
them with the lifestyle that they're used to.
Speaker 6 (22:59):
We are operating in an economy right now where income
and equality has increased over the last thirty to forty years,
So we are looking to attract talented students from high
income families. These are kids who have grown up with
their own bedroom and their own bathroom and when they
come looking at college campuses, those are some of the
(23:21):
things that the families are looking for.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Rasser asks those kids to do without some of the
luxuries they were raised with, and that's a hard sell.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
Every time another school with which we compete makes a
different decision and doesn't spend it on financial aid, then
it puts us in the position of being in a
tougher position to compete for the full pay students.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh, I see. You mean if another school spends lesson
builds a fancier X and you don't have the fancy X.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
Yeah, then they're gonna take some of those kids away
from us who want the fancy X.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Hill didn't name any names, but you know who she's
talking about. She's talking about Boden and the kids she
worries that Boden will take away are the kids from
Beverly Hills in Manhattan who grew up on beautifully ripe
avocados and freshly cut rosemary. Robert Walton serves on something
called the Parents Advisory Committee at Vassar, which is basically
(24:22):
the parents of the rich kids, and he hears it
all the time.
Speaker 8 (24:25):
They come and that you know they want to talk
to the senior officers about you know, their observations. You know,
it's sort of a you know, tough love kind of meeting.
They always ask about food, They always ask about housing,
They always you.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Know, they what do they say when they bring up food?
Do they complain about food or that?
Speaker 8 (24:41):
Basically, and so my reaction is, we need to make
food better. And we actually aren't going to make food better.
But if food is really important to you, and if
housing is really important to you, don't come to vasser
That's not what we focus on. That's just not what
we're into. Yeah, that's you know, and no apologies for that.
I mean, that's just not what we do.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
This is why I said at the beginning that food
is actually a moral issue, because how long do you
think Vassar can continue to do this, to say to
parents and students, if food is really that important to you,
go somewhere else. Those kids come to Vassar for a
campus visit and eat a soggy piece of pizza. Then
(25:25):
they go to Boden where Chef Cardone is the god
of the dining hall. He's got amazing resources, a bigger
endowmented six hundred and fifty fewer students, half as many
kids on pelgrants and every day he's taking it up
a notch in a kitchen. How long can Soggi pizza
hold up against Ken Cardon. When my producer Jacob was
(25:50):
on his culinary investigation at Boden, the students talked about
the food of their school like they were in Paris.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
In the beginning of the year. That ice cream didn't
really taste that well, like it was like kind of watery,
and so I know someone wrote a complaint card, like guys,
and then now it's like so much better, like they
just fixed it.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
I've heard good things about the dessert. Is it good?
Speaker 1 (26:11):
How do you compete with this?
Speaker 4 (26:13):
On your first time campus?
Speaker 10 (26:14):
There's this lobster bake where every student on campus has
the choice of having a lobster for dinner or a
steak or a vegetarian option. It's really phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
If I like to ask you, maybe like a respective
student was coming to campus and they were asked about
the food, what would be your like your one sentence
pitch or how would you describe it?
Speaker 10 (26:33):
It's sort of indescribable in the way that you can't
explain to someone how it's always changing, and it's always fresh,
and it's always different. It pushes you to try new things,
which is I think what college is all about, which
is experimenting and reaching out to new worlds. And you
know the fact that the food here helps you do
that as well is incredible.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
I cannot get over how excited this kid is about
the food of bud. Do you think he talks this
way about his professors?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Oh if you tried things that like you wouldn't have
tried otherwise, Like what kind of meals or dishes?
Speaker 10 (27:02):
Oh wow, the other night had an egg plant parmesan pancake.
You know, I don't think I could have even told
you that was a real thing until I had it.
You know, I walked past it didn't travel, and I
went like the might as well, and it was phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I have sex, actually eggplant parmerson pancake. I mean, this
is completely absurd. This is everything that's wrong with American colleges.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
We had venison here during deer season.
Speaker 10 (27:27):
It was really just fresh, locally sourced, different kinds of
meats that I would never expect to see in a
college dining hall.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
There's only one solution. If you're looking at liberal arts colleges.
Don't go to Boden. Don't let your kids go to Boden.
Don't let your friends go to Boden. Don't give money
to Boden or to any other school that serves amazing
food in its dining home. Because every time you support
a school that spends its money on amazing food, every
(27:54):
time you cast a vote in favor of eggplant parmesan
pancakes and lobster bakes and venison during deer season, you're
making it harder and harder for someone like Catherine Hill
to create opportunities for poor kids. Suck it up and
go to Vassar. Send a message to the Bodons of
the world about what really matters.
Speaker 7 (28:15):
Fresh fruit is atrocious. Sometimes we get bananas, and then
sometimes we get strawberries or grapes, but those are like
strawberries and grapes are like those are a big deal.
Like you go steal like five cups of.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
That, so you pocket them and run out with your
pockets full of Absolutely.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Absolutely, I'm not joking.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
This is Amanda again, the Vassar sophomore who complained about
the guacamal Amanda, the spoiled Californian, as she described herself.
But I will say this for Amanda. She gets it,
she understands what's at stake. Atrocious fresh fruit is a
small price to pay for a little social justice.
Speaker 7 (28:56):
I still complain regularly about the food and whatnot, but
I just feel much better knowing that that money's going
towards something useful. I would much prefer that our school'll
be giving money to that than trying to make our
food better. You know, first case scenario, you get the
minimum meal plan and you can eat out.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You've been listening to Revisionist History. If you like what
you've heard, do us a favor and rate us on iTunes.
You can get more information about this and other episodes
at Revisionististory dot com or on your favorite podcast app.
Our show is produced by me La Belle, Roxanne Scott,
and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton. Music is
(29:50):
composed by Luis Guerra and Taka Yasuzawa. Flon Williams is
our engineer, fact checker Michelle Siraka, and the Panoply management
team Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
I I think was beer completed by the y
Host
Malcolm Gladwell
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