October 13, 2025 • 43 mins
We're sharing a preview of College Matters from The Chronicle, a podcast from The Chronicle of Higher Education. After 16 months in a federal prison camp, William (Rick) Singer has had time to reflect on his role as the architect of a college-admissions bribery scheme that became known as Varsity Blues. The college consultant has apologized for concocting a plot that helped wealthy families, including some Hollywood celebrities, secure admission for their children to prestigious universities. But he isn’t slinking into the shadows. Singer says he’s already back in the consulting business. And he has come out of prison swinging, blasting the FBI, the college-admissions system, and anyone who might question the credentials of the students he represented.
Related Reading:
‘It’s an Aristocracy’: What the Admissions-Bribery Scandal Has Exposed About Class on Campus (The Chronicle)
Higher Ed’s Bribery Scandal Is Decadent and Depraved. Here Are 8 Truly Tasteless Allegations (The Chronicle)
We, the Privileged Parents That Matter, Applaud the Netflix College-Admissions Scandal Doc (The Chronicle)
Admission Through the ‘Side Door’ (The Chronicle)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Today, we're bringing you an episode of College Matters from
The Chronicle, a podcast from the Chronicle of Higher Education.
In it, you'll hear Jack Stripling, host of the show,
interview Rick Singer, who you might remember as the mastermind
of the Varsity Blues college admission scandal. This episode first
aired in late May, not long after Singer was released
(00:39):
from a federal prison camp. You can listen to College
Matters from the Chronicle on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
This is College Matters from the Chronicle.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Am I right? Absolutely, I'm one hundred percent wrong. But
I compartmentalize this to think, Ah, what's the big deal.
It's one kid. He gets his chance to go to
a school that he's qualified to go academically, but the
test is going to stop him from getting into any
(01:13):
good school that he wants to go to.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
In an expansive college admission scheme that led to the
convictions of more than fifty parents, coaches, and others, one
man stood out as uniquely culpable. Over a decade, according
to prosecutors, William Rick Singer, a college consultant, orchestrated an
elaborate system of bribery and fraud, with one goal in mind,
(01:38):
helping wealthy families to secure admission for their children into
highly selective universities, including Yale, Stanford, and Georgetown. Details of
the scheme, which first came to public light in twenty nineteen,
were discovered by investigators in what became known as Operation
Varsity Blues. Singer's clients, who included wealthy financiers and Hollywood celebrities,
(02:02):
went to often absurd links to get their children into
prestigious colleges, agreeing to pay off coaches and fraudulently passing
off their children as college level athletes. After pleading guilty
to four felonies, Singer spent sixteen months at a federal
prison work camp in Pensacola, Florida. He's done his time,
and he's now living in Newport Beach, California, where he's
(02:25):
already back to work as a college consultant. In a
recent interview, I asked him to reflect on how he
lost his way. What followed was in at times contentious
conversation with Singer, a pugnacious former basketball coach who still
seems to want to win at everything, including the interview. Well,
(02:47):
Rick Singer, welcome to College Matters and the Chronicle.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I appreciate it, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
So you're talking to us after having served sixteen months
in a federal prison camp for your role in the
admissions bribery scandal that became known as Varsity Blues. You've
had a lot of time to think about what happened.
When you look back on this, is there something in
particular that still haunts you about it?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
What haunts me is I have not had an opportunity
because the DOJ would not allow me to is actually
contact all those that were involved and say I'm sorry
that I put them through what they went through, and
also speak to those that weren't involved in this and
(03:31):
just say I'm sorry if I tarnished anything that's happened
in your life and your reputations because you had nothing
to do with this, but my name was involved in it.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
You had run for many years a legitimate college consulting business,
but at some point in time you started crossing ethical
and legal lines. And I'm curious. I don't know if
you can remember, Rick, but I have been thinking about this.
What's your first specific memory of crossing one of those lines?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
To be frank with you, I don't believe that I
crossed that line, the ethical and legal line for a
long time, but I will tell you the first time
I felt a little different because I was asked to
help a family that was based in Vancouver and a
(04:20):
gentleman by the name of David Sidoux came down from
Vancouver to la and he had a problem that he
wanted to know if I could fix for him. Okay,
that problem was that his eldest was known as the
best student at his school, and I believe that school
(04:42):
was Saint George's, which is I think perceived as the
best school in Vancouver. And this was a young man
that was very well liked, had great grades, performing arts.
Kid wanted to be in the film world and his
biggest issue was for his eldest was that he was
(05:02):
not a good test taker and no matter how much
tutoring the family paid for that the son did, he
still could not perform very well. And he wanted to
go to one of the best film schools, USC being
one of them, Chapman being the other, because Chapman was
perceived as the second best film school in the country
(05:25):
at that time and YU third. But he would need
despite his talent and what he could produce, he would
need a decent test score to go along with his grades,
and he asked me, could I do something to enhance
his scores? And I use my creative abilities. And at
(05:51):
that time, the test was giving as a hard copy.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
It was given as an.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
SAT test right, and when you came to take the test,
all you had to do, because you went to a
national test center, all you had to do was show
your ID that was your high school ID. So he
had some learning differences already, and he was already being
given fifty percent extended time. So I asked the family
(06:26):
if getting the extended time would make it so that
his test scores would go up with additional tutoring. They
had tested him with additional time and his scores went
up slightly, but not significantly. So my idea was, if
we could get him one hundred percent extended time, then
(06:46):
we could take the test not at a national test center,
but at his school or at another school that would
be is willing to give the test to kids that
need one hundred percent time. So we tried to get
him tested for one hundred percent more time, and unfortunately
(07:09):
he did not qualify. So now what do we do?
So I thought that the person that I could find
that could take the test for him was a brilliant
young man, and still you looked young. His name was
(07:30):
Mark Ruddell. Mark worked for us, and I am Rick.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I feel like we
skipped right into where you felt like you'd crossed the line.
You at some point, when these other methods weren't working out,
decided I'm going to pay somebody else to take this
test for my client's kid.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Was that a big decision for you?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Frankly, I think I compartmentalized it and said, hey, this
is one kid. I don't think I thought about that
it was such a bad thing. I knew it was cheating,
one hundred knew it was cheating. However, I looked at
it as though, you know what, people cheat all the time.
(08:14):
They cheat on tests. I have people calling me every
time the sat and act is taken across the world
and being told that kids are in the bathroom sharing
the answers to the tests, kids from China, kids from overseas,
or sending pictures of the tests. Two kids into the
(08:37):
bathroom and then they're using those answers. So, am I right, Absolutely,
I'm one hundred percent wrong. But I compartmentalize this to think, Ah,
what's the big deal. It's one kid, he gets his
chance to go to a school that he's qualified to
go academically, but the test is going to stop him
(08:59):
from getting into any good school that he wants to
go to.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And you had more or less convince yourself that so
many people were dishonest in this arena, that what's one
more person that's correct.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I rationalized the situation, and I was one hundred percent wrong,
but at the time, I rationalized it, and I did
the same thing multiple times again, not the same kind
of situation, but I helped families and kids cheat on
the test more than once. So this was that you asked,
(09:33):
when was the first time? This is the first time.
And I had Mark Ridell, who lived in Florida and
worked at IMG Academies as a tutor and a tennis instructor,
take the test for the young man. So what we
had was the young man sent me his ID and
(09:58):
we repurposed the ID and put Mark's picture on his ID.
At that time. Then we didn't take the test at
his school or at a National Test Center near the
school in Vancouver. We took it somewhere else where Mark
(10:19):
could walk in and be that student and nobody would
know any different.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Riddell pleaded guilty to one kind of conspiracy to commit
mail fraud and Honest Service's mail fraud, and one kind
of conspiracy to commit money laundering. And mister Sidu, who
you mentioned earlier, has also pleaded guilty to crimes associated
with the Varsity Blue scandal.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That is correct. And then Mark took the test for
the young man, scored a score that I asked him
to score, and that helped him get himself into all
the schools that he wanted to go to.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I'm curious, Rick, as you look back on this, you're
giving me kind of a almost a blass rendition of
this that you knew it was wrong, but you kind
of didn't see it was a big deal. The prosecutors
say that you paid off the test proctors which we've
talked about, and administrators to cheat on college interest exams,
that you facilitated the bribing of athletics coaches to pass
(11:18):
off your client's children as athletes for admission. You took
enormous professional and personal risk to do this, And as
I hear you talk, I'm not sure whether you were
fully conscious of how big the risk were.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Were you absolutely not? Like in this test taking to me,
I mean, I knew it was a risk, but you know,
it's one kid. It's one kid here, it's one kid there.
And again, if you know what goes on every Saturday
at the sat or act is being given and how
(11:51):
much cheating is going on, and then how much cheating
is going on at every high school in America on
every AP exam exams given at schools, I thought, no
big deal.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
I'm curious how you evaluate yourself as a college counselor though.
Did you really figure out something people didn't understand about
college admissions or is it just that you were willing
to do things that were wrong?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, I think what you forget about is that I
had thousands of kids that went through our for profit
company and did everything legitimately, and I spent more time
than I would say most of these other people who
say they're college counselors getting to know every university and
(12:37):
getting to know all the people on these university staffs.
I spent every summer visiting fifty to sixty schools across
the country at all sizes, at all levels of schools,
and getting to know everybody on that campus I could.
So I got to know the admissions people. I got
(13:01):
to know the international admissions people. I got to know
the president's staff, I got to know all the dorm people.
I got to know, you know, everybody and students on
that campus, so that when I refer to student to
a particular school, I could tell you what they're serving
in the dining commons. I could tell you exactly what
(13:22):
the dorms look like, and the multiple dorms. I could
tell you what the fitness facilities were like. I could
tell you the philosophy of the university executive council. I
could tell you the philosophy of the admissions people because
I actually know them personally, can pick up the phone
and call them. So give you an example. Let's say
(13:44):
you had a child and your child was applying to
ex college and we wanted a status of where you
fall within that admissions person's group that they were reading
for that geographic area. If I didn't know you, I
could call somebody on that staff and that staff member
(14:09):
would find out for me personally where you fall in
the eyes of that admissions person reading your application and
or the committee.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Can you make that call anymore? Rick, You've expressed interest
in getting back into college counseling. I'm curious whether anybody
at a university is picking up the phone for Rick Singer.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Now, Oh, they're already calling me. You got people calling
me asking me, especially now that you have in athletics,
you have an nil and collective issue going on all
over the country where athletes are transferring from schools to
schools to schools, and the boosters, which are the collectives,
(14:53):
are now funding the payment to athletes to come to schools.
They're getting money from their alumnus, but they're also need
money from the outside. Within three days of me being
released from Pensacola, I received no less than twenty phone
(15:15):
calls from twenty different collectives asking me if I be
interested in partnering with them and raising money for them. Well, now,
with President Trump making a decision on taking moneies away
from universities that do not want to follow his legislation
(15:36):
that he's trying to put forward with DEI, I have
universities now calling me asking me if we lose our funding,
is there a way to help our funding and you
know families and others that would be willing to donate
to our school.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I have to say, Rick, I'm really surprised to hear this.
I would think that you would be respectfully considered a
toxic person in higher education now.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And you're probably right, but that is probably those people
that don't understand that higher education is a business, and
you got to figure out from a business perspective, how
are you going to fund the programs that you have?
(16:26):
How are you going to continue to grow your university's reputation. So,
if you think about it, there's twenty to forty schools
every year that are going to close because they don't
have enrollment numbers and they don't have money. How are
you funding all these programs? How are you funding these departments?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Well, let's talk specifically about nil name, image and likeness.
So you mentioned that athletics departments are contacting you to
see if you can help raise money. I just want
to make sure I understand.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I'm telling you the collectives which are outside of the
university's purview. They work with the university, they work with
the coaches, but they are an outside group. In most cases,
many universities have brought their collectives in house, but many
have not, and their job is to provide sponsorships and
(17:21):
opportunities for kids that they are trying to recruit to
our high level kids and provide them monies.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Now has anyone from a collective or a university said
Rick Singer if you can get us money, we will
help you get a student admitted to our highly selective institution. Yes,
what do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What's funny? Over the several years that I was involved
in my case and then went to camp, the rules
of the world have changed. What they're doing is legal.
I think it's crazy that it's legal because I got
in trouble for what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You're saying that you think that a collective outside of
the universe saying that we will offer admission to an
otherwise unqualified student that Rick Singer represents no exchange for money. No,
the student is not is legal.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
The student is qualified. Why do you keep saying that
the student's not qualified to get in?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Well, because I'm talking to Rick Singer, I mean at.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
The no, no, no, no, you you keep throwing on
that my kids weren't qualified. They are qualified to get
into these schools, they're all qualified because here's the bottom MOI.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I mean they all understand.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
How about that? How about the kids who get in
and got in for years over affirmative action, who weren't qualified,
but they got in because there's a reason why they
got in.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
How about understanding you were you you were representing students Rick,
who would not have been admitted under the traditional course
had it not been for acts of bribery or paying
off people at test centers. So this is the heart
of the case.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
No, no, no, First of all, the bribery, why did you.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Have to go through all these hoops if these students
would have gotten it otherwise.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Jack, Let me ask you a question. Did any university
give me my money back?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
No?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Did anybody block me making donations? No? Did university send
me letters saying thank you so much for your donation
of five hundred thousand. So let me ask you. If
I'm getting letters from the university saying thank you so
much for your donation, I'm getting kids into school and
(19:47):
they're graduating. The university knows what I'm doing. The university
also knows that they're getting money from other families, that
there are thousands of emails running across from admissions to
the president's offices, to departments to athletics, stating this is
(20:11):
a VIP family. They are willing to give us money
to the university. Let's make sure that we take care
of them. This has been going on forever.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Rick, I absolutely want to talk to you about what
is considered acceptable in college admissions because I think it's
dizzying and I think you're making a very good point there.
But I just just as a matter of record, it
sounds like you're saying you never bribed anyone. You pleaded
guilty to racketeering, conspiracy, money laundering, conspiracy, conspiracy to defraud
the United States, and obstruction of justice. The conspiracy charges
(20:46):
that are associated with these guilty pleas are very much
under the umbrella of bribery. I mean, I'm looking now.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
But you're talking about none of us fought it.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Well, you're describing these as donations.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
They were not.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
How the government view is this.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Well, that's fine. The government we spend day after day
after day fighting that donation or bribe. Okay, their whole
point was it was quit pro quo. So I will
tell you this. I accepted the fact that I pled
(21:25):
guilty and it was called a bribe. They spent and
we all the way to the end. If you notice
I never testified. Why didn't I testify? Because they were
afraid that I was going to call this a donation.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
When we use purported charitable donations from parents, at least
in part to bribe to sat an acat at test administrators,
do you not consider that bribery?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
That's that's that I went. That was a payment. That's
not bribery. I'm not bribing somebody to do it. We are,
we are doing business with each other. I'm not How
about all the coaches that are calling me, Am I
bribing them? When they call me to say can you
help me find a donation? The administrator from ex school
(22:21):
is calling me saying, hey, we need to raise a
certain amount of money for our school. Am I the
one bribing them? Or are they calling me with a
business opportunity? You can call it whatever you want. At
the end of the day, am I saying what I
did on the testing stuff was right? It's one hundred
(22:43):
percent wrong, one hundred percent wrong.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Do you think any of this would have happened absent
your presence? Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
What's going on all the time. I'm not like everybody.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
No, but I mean this particular, this particular conspiracy that
we're talking about again quoting the government. No other defendants
involvement was as extensive, Nor is any co conspirator's conduct
more deceptive, corruption more deep rooted, or lies more pervasive
than Singer. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh? I think there's lots of people out there that
are doing worse than I am. Sure they made me
the poster boy right of this whole scenario.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Stick around. We'll be back in a.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Minute, Rick Singer.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
As long as I have you here, do you mind
if I ask you a little bit about.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Your work with the FBI?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Be my guest.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
You were approached by law enforcement agents in September of
twenty eighteen, and you agreed to cooperate with the government's
investigation of your co conspirators. Talk to me about when
you were first approached. What happened?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Well, A ruse was committed on my behalf by the
coachy Yale Rudy Meredith, who had called me and who
was a co conspirator, a person who I worked with
for years and years, one of many many coaches who
(24:18):
had called me and said, hey, listen, can you come
to Boston? And I have some athletic directors and some
presidents that want to meet you. And I said, well,
who are they? And he told me who they were,
and I said, well, I already have relationships with most
of those people. Why do I need to come to Boston?
(24:40):
And he said, well, they want to do some other
stuff with you. So out of respect, I came to
Boston and took the overnight flight, met at a hotel
with Rudy. Rudy then took me upstairs into a hotel
conference room or room, and I was supposed to be
(25:02):
there with all these people. When I got there, obviously
there were no people in that room. Sat down and
I asked him, kind of where are we with this?
And there was a knock on the door. And he
had committed a great ruse against me. More power to
him in the government. And they knocked on the door.
The FBI, the Treasury agents came running in with their guns.
(25:28):
I sat in the corner with my legs crossed. They
grabbed Rudy. They threw them against the wall, which was
all pre planned, handcuffed him and took them outside, and
then Charlie's Angels the three FBI agents I worked with
and some of the Treasury people all came rushing in
(25:48):
and said, hey, you just committed all these crimes. And
one of the things they stated was that I bribed
all these officials, and I stated, for the next three days,
I didn't bribe anybody. We collected donates. Immediately upon them
(26:12):
coming in the door, they sat down and asked me
if I would cooperate. I said, well, I don't even
know what you have on me. I don't even know
what's going on. I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
What were you terrified in this situation?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Right? No, because I didn't think I did anything wrong.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So being in a hotel room that's rated by FBI
agent and seeing a guy thrown against a wall and handcuffed, that.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Didn't It didn't bother me because I felt, you can
ask me whatever you want to ask me. I'm fine.
What I didn't know at the time until they came
in that they had been wiring my phone for six
to eight months before they had all my emails, They
(26:56):
had all my texts for months and months and months
and months and months, And when they sat down and
started to ask me questions, they could read back to
me exactly transcripts of what I said on all these
calls that happened six months before.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So you're thinking my goose is cooked at that point.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Oh, No, I'm not. I'm just I'm trying to figure it.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
You're still not thinking a crime has been committed.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I'm trying to figure out. What are you trying to
get from me? I asked to speak to an attorney. They,
of course tell me, we'll give you an attorney to call. Okay,
we're going to give you somebody to call. Okay, so
give me the number and I'll call them. Well, what
(27:47):
I didn't know is also that the US attorney, all
bunch of them, were in the room next door to me,
and they gave me a phone number to call. And
I called that federal employee and he didn't answer. Then
I told the FBI by the way, he didn't answer,
(28:08):
They called him and yelled at him answer the phone.
I called him again. He didn't answer, So I asked
if I could call my own attorney, And at that
point I called the best litigator I knew that I
worked with. I handled his kids, I worked with his kids.
(28:29):
And then he referred me to another attorney because he
didn't handle federal matters. I called that other attorney, and ironically,
when he got on the phone with me, he started laughing.
I told him who I was, and I said, why
are you laughing? And he said, do you know who
(28:51):
I am? I said, absolutely, no, I don't. I just
know your name is Don, he goes. I am Don Heller.
You worked with both of my kids. You spent years
in my home. I know you and what you do intimately,
(29:11):
and I appreciate everything that you did for my family.
You made an unbelievable significant difference in my two kids,
and thank you. Hold on, let me call the US
attorney who's in charge here, and let me ask him
where we stand. He had called the US attorney, Eric Rosen.
(29:35):
Eric talked to him, and he called me back and said,
you are screwed. He said, you are the smartest, dumbest
person I know. And I said why, he goes, because
you would not be in this situation had you just
(29:56):
picked up the phone and called an attorney and asked
him if what you were doing was kosher. He said,
you were living in the gray area, and the government
they make their own definitions of the gray area. They
can make anything into anything they want, and they got you.
(30:21):
They've been wiring your phone, your emails, they have all
your financial records. They know exactly what they're doing, and
based on their definition of quid pro quo and their
definition of bribe, they're going to charge you.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
You had profited handsomely from your activities, and I assume
you grew accustomed to a certain lifestyle. I know there's
back and forth about how much money you really made here,
but prosecutors say you used fifteen million dollars of your
client's money for your own benefit.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
When did it sink in for you that life as
you knew it was essentially over when.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I got done with that weekend that they made me
stay in Boston. But I didn't profit from that money.
That money was not used for me. That money was
used to propel what we were doing for the students,
and the money was being given to the universities. The
(31:22):
money was given to the proctors. The money was not
given and was not given to me to use for
my personal self. It was all money that went out
and I hired an ex FBI forensics person who actually
put all that together. And we were never given the
(31:43):
opportunity to give that to the DOJ and to the
US attorney. They didn't care. They already started their case
and they moved on, and so I had to just
move on and accept whatever they're going to say. They're
going to say, and that's kind of where we were.
So when you if you keep saying that I cooperated
(32:06):
and I accepted the I accepted all the charges. That
means I accepted it from them, but personally I didn't
accept it.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
I think people have trouble believing this idea that you
didn't profit from this interview.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
That's okay, everybody is. Everybody's welcoming in there.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Your lifestyle didn't change one iota.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
No, because the reality this is a tiny smart part
of my business.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
We had, Ah, why were you ordered to pay more
than ten million dollars in restitution to the IRS if
you hadn't made money.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I'm not being ordered to pay over ten million to DIRS.
I'm actually now in a restoration cause. So let's talk
about this. Two weeks to a month before I was
ready to go to camp, we were told that I
owed them ten million dollars.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
That's what I'm reading for exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
We said, this is crazy. Where did you come up
with that number. You just made up a number.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
So what is the just rick? Briefly, what is the
status of all of this? I didn't pull the number
out of thin air, as you know. So do you
owe money to the government or no?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I do owevernment. I owe money to the government.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
And there's an ongoing dispute about how much.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Now the dispute is over because I had to agree
to a four point seven million dollar restoration. We are
still on every paper, including the paper you have, still
shows ten million. We're waiting for the status of the
restoration and the four point seven million, not ten million
(33:47):
and under thank you for the clericy, and we still
don't agree with the four to seven but we had
to agree so we can move on, so I could
get sentenced and we can move on with my life.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Are you in money troubles though? No, you feel financially.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Secure now I feel I'm okay.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
So I want to ask you a little bit about
your experience in the prison camp. You were there for
sixteen months in prison camp in Pensacola, Florida. It's a
minimum security facility. I've heard media reports described as cushy.
What was your experience like though?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Well, I think that media report was back when Barbara
Walters did an interview and came to campus and was
so surprised that there was a pool there, There were
tennis courts there, There was all these things there, and
she said, how could this be a prison? Right? Let
(34:38):
me tell you there's no pool there anymore. Okay, there
are tennis courts. So my experience was as good as
it could be. So when I got there, the first
thing I did, I was told that the first thing
you need to do is get a great job. So
(35:04):
I went through what they call R and D, which
is when they take your clothes, they give you your
new outfit, they give you an ID and all that stuff.
And the second I got done, I ran to the
fitness center and to the recreation officers and ask for
(35:26):
a job, because I knew the way to make this
experience positive was you have to have a job that
you didn't mind going to every day.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Did you find it to be an unpleasant experience?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
No?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I am curious whether you offered any college consulting advice
to anyone in the prison camp.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Actually I offered a lot. There are a lot of
gentlemen there that have been prison for a while and
are relatively young folks compared to me, and they have
kids at home, they have five year old through eighteen
year olds, and they would come to me and ask
(36:08):
me how they could help their kids be stronger in
school and get more opportunities down the road. So what
I did do is I worked with a lot of
families there where the dads would call the mom or
the grandmother whoever's taking care of the younger kids, and
(36:30):
ask the questions that I needed to know, which was
what was the lexile level of their kids, what was
the math level of their kids? And then my family
would send from Amazon directly books to their house to
do workbooks that I gave to my own son to
do when he was going through the process to help
(36:52):
their kids garner a better foundation and figure out what
their kids didn't know and what they did know so
that they had a chance.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
You mentioned your son. I think he was probably in
his twenties. I think when the FBI approached you to
have that about right, I think so, I'm curious about
conversations you've had with him, if you're comfortable talking about it.
I'm curious about conversations you've had with your family.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
About this, well, let me tell you, did.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
You feel the need to ask forgiveness of them or no.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
To be frank with you, my family, generations over generations
have been involved with the FBI for years, and they
already think the FBI is despicable. They have been involved
with lots of things that have been turned around on
our family and other things that have happened, so they
(37:45):
don't believe half the stuff that goes on, and they
do know that the FBI and the US attorneys do
whatever they want to do. You pretty much have no
chance when you have to deal with the DOJ. So
you either accept what they're going to provide to you,
and that's why I accepted the cooperation, or you fight
(38:07):
them and you get a worse penalty. I will tell
you of people in my camp that went to court
and were offered a plea deal and got six to
ten years extra because they fought it.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
You may not agree with the government's complete case. I
understand that, but you have accepted responsibility one hundred percent,
and you have told me on multiple occasions today that
you know what you did was wrong one hundred percent.
I'm curious about being in a high profile situation that
is potentially embarrassing whether you had difficult conversations at all
with your family about that.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
They're not difficult conversations. You make them difficult. I don't
make them difficult. We're having conversations as a family would
not every conversation is happy, go lucky, and not every
conversation is pleasant when when you talk about reality, I
took full responsibility. There is nothing that the government said
(39:04):
I did the actual of doing the things I did.
He did everything that they said I did. You can
define it differently than I do, but I did every
single thing they said.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I think this is a complicated way of me asking
if you ever felt shame.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Oh, I feel shame all the time because I feel
bad that my family's name had to be involved. I
feel terrible that my son, at the time, when he
was graduating school and in finishing seminary, that he had
to be thrown into this. So I feel disappointment in
(39:46):
myself shame, not maybe the shame that you think of,
but just shame that I was stupid. I could have
stopped all of this, all of it, by getting the
appropriate advice from counsel. Listen, it was my fault and
(40:09):
all I had to do is call an attorney, and
the attorney could have said to me, WHOA, what you're
doing is wrong?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Am I wrong to be worried? Though, Rick? Because you're
still getting up at four o'clock in the morning. You've
done more by six am than I'll probably do today.
You said you're taking twenty to thirty calls about nil
this sort of thing. A person might hear this and
think Rick's gonna get into this same stuff again.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Actually, I'm a lot smarter.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
So there's gonna be another gray area.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
I know there's gonna be no gray are there's gonna
be black and white because my first call is always
too an attorney. My first thought is I only want
to live in black and white if it's not black
and it's not white, and it's not for certain, I'm
(41:02):
going to find out the truth. Do parents want to
work with me? Should they want to work with me?
Just know this, I am going to do everything I
possibly can for my families that is lawful. I am
not going to break the rules. I am not going
(41:23):
to do anything that council doesn't say is absolutely black
and white.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Well, look, I really appreciate you taking time to talk
to us about all of this and your candor and
your time are so appreciated. Thank you so much, and
I appreciate you. After our interview with Rick Singer, we
contacted the US Attorney's Office for the District of Massachusetts
(41:50):
and we asked about any ongoing negotiations over what mister
Singer owes the government. Without elaboration, a spokeswoman for the
office wrote in an email, as it stands, mister Singer
has an outstanding ten million dollar judgment. This is the
(42:10):
last episode of season two, so you won't see new
episodes in our feed for a few weeks, but we'll
have a special summer series that we think you'll enjoy,
and we're excited to bring you season three in the fall.
If you have any thoughts or questions about the show,
we'd love to hear from you. You can email us
at College Matters at Chronicle dot com. I'm Jack Stripling.
Thanks so much for listening. College Matters from the Chronicle
(42:34):
is a production of the Chronicle of Higher Education, the
nation's leading independent newsroom covering colleges. If you like the show,
please leave us a review or invite a friend to listen,
and remember to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcast so that you never miss an episode.
You can find an archive of every episode, all of
our show notes, and much more at Chronicle dot com
(42:56):
slash college Matters. We are produced by Rococo Punch. Our
Chronicle producer is Fernanda Zamudio Suarez. Our podcast artwork is
by Katrell Thomas. Special thanks to our colleagues Brock Read,
Sarah Brown, Carmen Mendoza, Ron Coddington, Joshua Hatch, and all
of the people at the Chronicle who make this show possible.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Today, we're bringing you an episode of College Matters from
The Chronicle, a podcast from the Chronicle of Higher Education.
In it, you'll hear Jack Stripling, host of the show,
interview Rick Singer, who you might remember as the mastermind
of the Varsity Blues college admission scandal. This episode first
aired in late May, not long after Singer was released
(00:39):
from a federal prison camp. You can listen to College
Matters from the Chronicle on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
This is College Matters from the Chronicle.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Am I right? Absolutely, I'm one hundred percent wrong. But
I compartmentalize this to think, Ah, what's the big deal.
It's one kid. He gets his chance to go to
a school that he's qualified to go academically, but the
test is going to stop him from getting into any
(01:13):
good school that he wants to go to.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
In an expansive college admission scheme that led to the
convictions of more than fifty parents, coaches, and others, one
man stood out as uniquely culpable. Over a decade, according
to prosecutors, William Rick Singer, a college consultant, orchestrated an
elaborate system of bribery and fraud, with one goal in mind,
(01:38):
helping wealthy families to secure admission for their children into
highly selective universities, including Yale, Stanford, and Georgetown. Details of
the scheme, which first came to public light in twenty nineteen,
were discovered by investigators in what became known as Operation
Varsity Blues. Singer's clients, who included wealthy financiers and Hollywood celebrities,
(02:02):
went to often absurd links to get their children into
prestigious colleges, agreeing to pay off coaches and fraudulently passing
off their children as college level athletes. After pleading guilty
to four felonies, Singer spent sixteen months at a federal
prison work camp in Pensacola, Florida. He's done his time,
and he's now living in Newport Beach, California, where he's
(02:25):
already back to work as a college consultant. In a
recent interview, I asked him to reflect on how he
lost his way. What followed was in at times contentious
conversation with Singer, a pugnacious former basketball coach who still
seems to want to win at everything, including the interview. Well,
(02:47):
Rick Singer, welcome to College Matters and the Chronicle.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I appreciate it, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
So you're talking to us after having served sixteen months
in a federal prison camp for your role in the
admissions bribery scandal that became known as Varsity Blues. You've
had a lot of time to think about what happened.
When you look back on this, is there something in
particular that still haunts you about it?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
What haunts me is I have not had an opportunity
because the DOJ would not allow me to is actually
contact all those that were involved and say I'm sorry
that I put them through what they went through, and
also speak to those that weren't involved in this and
(03:31):
just say I'm sorry if I tarnished anything that's happened
in your life and your reputations because you had nothing
to do with this, but my name was involved in it.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
You had run for many years a legitimate college consulting business,
but at some point in time you started crossing ethical
and legal lines. And I'm curious. I don't know if
you can remember, Rick, but I have been thinking about this.
What's your first specific memory of crossing one of those lines?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
To be frank with you, I don't believe that I
crossed that line, the ethical and legal line for a
long time, but I will tell you the first time
I felt a little different because I was asked to
help a family that was based in Vancouver and a
(04:20):
gentleman by the name of David Sidoux came down from
Vancouver to la and he had a problem that he
wanted to know if I could fix for him. Okay,
that problem was that his eldest was known as the
best student at his school, and I believe that school
(04:42):
was Saint George's, which is I think perceived as the
best school in Vancouver. And this was a young man
that was very well liked, had great grades, performing arts.
Kid wanted to be in the film world and his
biggest issue was for his eldest was that he was
(05:02):
not a good test taker and no matter how much
tutoring the family paid for that the son did, he
still could not perform very well. And he wanted to
go to one of the best film schools, USC being
one of them, Chapman being the other, because Chapman was
perceived as the second best film school in the country
(05:25):
at that time and YU third. But he would need
despite his talent and what he could produce, he would
need a decent test score to go along with his grades,
and he asked me, could I do something to enhance
his scores? And I use my creative abilities. And at
(05:51):
that time, the test was giving as a hard copy.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
It was given as an.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
SAT test right, and when you came to take the test,
all you had to do, because you went to a
national test center, all you had to do was show
your ID that was your high school ID. So he
had some learning differences already, and he was already being
given fifty percent extended time. So I asked the family
(06:26):
if getting the extended time would make it so that
his test scores would go up with additional tutoring. They
had tested him with additional time and his scores went
up slightly, but not significantly. So my idea was, if
we could get him one hundred percent extended time, then
(06:46):
we could take the test not at a national test center,
but at his school or at another school that would
be is willing to give the test to kids that
need one hundred percent time. So we tried to get
him tested for one hundred percent more time, and unfortunately
(07:09):
he did not qualify. So now what do we do?
So I thought that the person that I could find
that could take the test for him was a brilliant
young man, and still you looked young. His name was
(07:30):
Mark Ruddell. Mark worked for us, and I am Rick.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I feel like we
skipped right into where you felt like you'd crossed the line.
You at some point, when these other methods weren't working out,
decided I'm going to pay somebody else to take this
test for my client's kid.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Was that a big decision for you?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Frankly, I think I compartmentalized it and said, hey, this
is one kid. I don't think I thought about that
it was such a bad thing. I knew it was cheating,
one hundred knew it was cheating. However, I looked at
it as though, you know what, people cheat all the time.
(08:14):
They cheat on tests. I have people calling me every
time the sat and act is taken across the world
and being told that kids are in the bathroom sharing
the answers to the tests, kids from China, kids from overseas,
or sending pictures of the tests. Two kids into the
(08:37):
bathroom and then they're using those answers. So, am I right, Absolutely,
I'm one hundred percent wrong. But I compartmentalize this to think, Ah,
what's the big deal. It's one kid, he gets his
chance to go to a school that he's qualified to
go academically, but the test is going to stop him
(08:59):
from getting into any good school that he wants to
go to.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And you had more or less convince yourself that so
many people were dishonest in this arena, that what's one
more person that's correct.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I rationalized the situation, and I was one hundred percent wrong,
but at the time, I rationalized it, and I did
the same thing multiple times again, not the same kind
of situation, but I helped families and kids cheat on
the test more than once. So this was that you asked,
(09:33):
when was the first time? This is the first time.
And I had Mark Ridell, who lived in Florida and
worked at IMG Academies as a tutor and a tennis instructor,
take the test for the young man. So what we
had was the young man sent me his ID and
(09:58):
we repurposed the ID and put Mark's picture on his ID.
At that time. Then we didn't take the test at
his school or at a National Test Center near the
school in Vancouver. We took it somewhere else where Mark
(10:19):
could walk in and be that student and nobody would
know any different.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Riddell pleaded guilty to one kind of conspiracy to commit
mail fraud and Honest Service's mail fraud, and one kind
of conspiracy to commit money laundering. And mister Sidu, who
you mentioned earlier, has also pleaded guilty to crimes associated
with the Varsity Blue scandal.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That is correct. And then Mark took the test for
the young man, scored a score that I asked him
to score, and that helped him get himself into all
the schools that he wanted to go to.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I'm curious, Rick, as you look back on this, you're
giving me kind of a almost a blass rendition of
this that you knew it was wrong, but you kind
of didn't see it was a big deal. The prosecutors
say that you paid off the test proctors which we've
talked about, and administrators to cheat on college interest exams,
that you facilitated the bribing of athletics coaches to pass
(11:18):
off your client's children as athletes for admission. You took
enormous professional and personal risk to do this, And as
I hear you talk, I'm not sure whether you were
fully conscious of how big the risk were.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Were you absolutely not? Like in this test taking to me,
I mean, I knew it was a risk, but you know,
it's one kid. It's one kid here, it's one kid there.
And again, if you know what goes on every Saturday
at the sat or act is being given and how
(11:51):
much cheating is going on, and then how much cheating
is going on at every high school in America on
every AP exam exams given at schools, I thought, no
big deal.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
I'm curious how you evaluate yourself as a college counselor though.
Did you really figure out something people didn't understand about
college admissions or is it just that you were willing
to do things that were wrong?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, I think what you forget about is that I
had thousands of kids that went through our for profit
company and did everything legitimately, and I spent more time
than I would say most of these other people who
say they're college counselors getting to know every university and
(12:37):
getting to know all the people on these university staffs.
I spent every summer visiting fifty to sixty schools across
the country at all sizes, at all levels of schools,
and getting to know everybody on that campus I could.
So I got to know the admissions people. I got
(13:01):
to know the international admissions people. I got to know
the president's staff, I got to know all the dorm people.
I got to know, you know, everybody and students on
that campus, so that when I refer to student to
a particular school, I could tell you what they're serving
in the dining commons. I could tell you exactly what
(13:22):
the dorms look like, and the multiple dorms. I could
tell you what the fitness facilities were like. I could
tell you the philosophy of the university executive council. I
could tell you the philosophy of the admissions people because
I actually know them personally, can pick up the phone
and call them. So give you an example. Let's say
(13:44):
you had a child and your child was applying to
ex college and we wanted a status of where you
fall within that admissions person's group that they were reading
for that geographic area. If I didn't know you, I
could call somebody on that staff and that staff member
(14:09):
would find out for me personally where you fall in
the eyes of that admissions person reading your application and
or the committee.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Can you make that call anymore? Rick, You've expressed interest
in getting back into college counseling. I'm curious whether anybody
at a university is picking up the phone for Rick Singer.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Now, Oh, they're already calling me. You got people calling
me asking me, especially now that you have in athletics,
you have an nil and collective issue going on all
over the country where athletes are transferring from schools to
schools to schools, and the boosters, which are the collectives,
(14:53):
are now funding the payment to athletes to come to schools.
They're getting money from their alumnus, but they're also need
money from the outside. Within three days of me being
released from Pensacola, I received no less than twenty phone
(15:15):
calls from twenty different collectives asking me if I be
interested in partnering with them and raising money for them. Well, now,
with President Trump making a decision on taking moneies away
from universities that do not want to follow his legislation
(15:36):
that he's trying to put forward with DEI, I have
universities now calling me asking me if we lose our funding,
is there a way to help our funding and you
know families and others that would be willing to donate
to our school.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I have to say, Rick, I'm really surprised to hear this.
I would think that you would be respectfully considered a
toxic person in higher education now.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And you're probably right, but that is probably those people
that don't understand that higher education is a business, and
you got to figure out from a business perspective, how
are you going to fund the programs that you have?
(16:26):
How are you going to continue to grow your university's reputation. So,
if you think about it, there's twenty to forty schools
every year that are going to close because they don't
have enrollment numbers and they don't have money. How are
you funding all these programs? How are you funding these departments?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Well, let's talk specifically about nil name, image and likeness.
So you mentioned that athletics departments are contacting you to
see if you can help raise money. I just want
to make sure I understand.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I'm telling you the collectives which are outside of the
university's purview. They work with the university, they work with
the coaches, but they are an outside group. In most cases,
many universities have brought their collectives in house, but many
have not, and their job is to provide sponsorships and
(17:21):
opportunities for kids that they are trying to recruit to
our high level kids and provide them monies.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Now has anyone from a collective or a university said
Rick Singer if you can get us money, we will
help you get a student admitted to our highly selective institution. Yes,
what do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What's funny? Over the several years that I was involved
in my case and then went to camp, the rules
of the world have changed. What they're doing is legal.
I think it's crazy that it's legal because I got
in trouble for what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You're saying that you think that a collective outside of
the universe saying that we will offer admission to an
otherwise unqualified student that Rick Singer represents no exchange for money. No,
the student is not is legal.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
The student is qualified. Why do you keep saying that
the student's not qualified to get in?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Well, because I'm talking to Rick Singer, I mean at.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
The no, no, no, no, you you keep throwing on
that my kids weren't qualified. They are qualified to get
into these schools, they're all qualified because here's the bottom MOI.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I mean they all understand.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
How about that? How about the kids who get in
and got in for years over affirmative action, who weren't qualified,
but they got in because there's a reason why they
got in.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
How about understanding you were you you were representing students Rick,
who would not have been admitted under the traditional course
had it not been for acts of bribery or paying
off people at test centers. So this is the heart
of the case.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
No, no, no, First of all, the bribery, why did you.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Have to go through all these hoops if these students
would have gotten it otherwise.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Jack, Let me ask you a question. Did any university
give me my money back?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
No?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Did anybody block me making donations? No? Did university send
me letters saying thank you so much for your donation
of five hundred thousand. So let me ask you. If
I'm getting letters from the university saying thank you so
much for your donation, I'm getting kids into school and
(19:47):
they're graduating. The university knows what I'm doing. The university
also knows that they're getting money from other families, that
there are thousands of emails running across from admissions to
the president's offices, to departments to athletics, stating this is
(20:11):
a VIP family. They are willing to give us money
to the university. Let's make sure that we take care
of them. This has been going on forever.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Rick, I absolutely want to talk to you about what
is considered acceptable in college admissions because I think it's
dizzying and I think you're making a very good point there.
But I just just as a matter of record, it
sounds like you're saying you never bribed anyone. You pleaded
guilty to racketeering, conspiracy, money laundering, conspiracy, conspiracy to defraud
the United States, and obstruction of justice. The conspiracy charges
(20:46):
that are associated with these guilty pleas are very much
under the umbrella of bribery. I mean, I'm looking now.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
But you're talking about none of us fought it.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Well, you're describing these as donations.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
They were not.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
How the government view is this.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Well, that's fine. The government we spend day after day
after day fighting that donation or bribe. Okay, their whole
point was it was quit pro quo. So I will
tell you this. I accepted the fact that I pled
(21:25):
guilty and it was called a bribe. They spent and
we all the way to the end. If you notice
I never testified. Why didn't I testify? Because they were
afraid that I was going to call this a donation.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
When we use purported charitable donations from parents, at least
in part to bribe to sat an acat at test administrators,
do you not consider that bribery?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
That's that's that I went. That was a payment. That's
not bribery. I'm not bribing somebody to do it. We are,
we are doing business with each other. I'm not How
about all the coaches that are calling me, Am I
bribing them? When they call me to say can you
help me find a donation? The administrator from ex school
(22:21):
is calling me saying, hey, we need to raise a
certain amount of money for our school. Am I the
one bribing them? Or are they calling me with a
business opportunity? You can call it whatever you want. At
the end of the day, am I saying what I
did on the testing stuff was right? It's one hundred
(22:43):
percent wrong, one hundred percent wrong.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Do you think any of this would have happened absent
your presence? Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
What's going on all the time. I'm not like everybody.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
No, but I mean this particular, this particular conspiracy that
we're talking about again quoting the government. No other defendants
involvement was as extensive, Nor is any co conspirator's conduct
more deceptive, corruption more deep rooted, or lies more pervasive
than Singer. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh? I think there's lots of people out there that
are doing worse than I am. Sure they made me
the poster boy right of this whole scenario.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Stick around. We'll be back in a.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Minute, Rick Singer.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
As long as I have you here, do you mind
if I ask you a little bit about.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Your work with the FBI?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Be my guest.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
You were approached by law enforcement agents in September of
twenty eighteen, and you agreed to cooperate with the government's
investigation of your co conspirators. Talk to me about when
you were first approached. What happened?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Well, A ruse was committed on my behalf by the
coachy Yale Rudy Meredith, who had called me and who
was a co conspirator, a person who I worked with
for years and years, one of many many coaches who
(24:18):
had called me and said, hey, listen, can you come
to Boston? And I have some athletic directors and some
presidents that want to meet you. And I said, well,
who are they? And he told me who they were,
and I said, well, I already have relationships with most
of those people. Why do I need to come to Boston?
(24:40):
And he said, well, they want to do some other
stuff with you. So out of respect, I came to
Boston and took the overnight flight, met at a hotel
with Rudy. Rudy then took me upstairs into a hotel
conference room or room, and I was supposed to be
(25:02):
there with all these people. When I got there, obviously
there were no people in that room. Sat down and
I asked him, kind of where are we with this?
And there was a knock on the door. And he
had committed a great ruse against me. More power to
him in the government. And they knocked on the door.
The FBI, the Treasury agents came running in with their guns.
(25:28):
I sat in the corner with my legs crossed. They
grabbed Rudy. They threw them against the wall, which was
all pre planned, handcuffed him and took them outside, and
then Charlie's Angels the three FBI agents I worked with
and some of the Treasury people all came rushing in
(25:48):
and said, hey, you just committed all these crimes. And
one of the things they stated was that I bribed
all these officials, and I stated, for the next three days,
I didn't bribe anybody. We collected donates. Immediately upon them
(26:12):
coming in the door, they sat down and asked me
if I would cooperate. I said, well, I don't even
know what you have on me. I don't even know
what's going on. I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
What were you terrified in this situation?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Right? No, because I didn't think I did anything wrong.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So being in a hotel room that's rated by FBI
agent and seeing a guy thrown against a wall and handcuffed, that.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Didn't It didn't bother me because I felt, you can
ask me whatever you want to ask me. I'm fine.
What I didn't know at the time until they came
in that they had been wiring my phone for six
to eight months before they had all my emails, They
(26:56):
had all my texts for months and months and months
and months and months, And when they sat down and
started to ask me questions, they could read back to
me exactly transcripts of what I said on all these
calls that happened six months before.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So you're thinking my goose is cooked at that point.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Oh, No, I'm not. I'm just I'm trying to figure it.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
You're still not thinking a crime has been committed.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I'm trying to figure out. What are you trying to
get from me? I asked to speak to an attorney. They,
of course tell me, we'll give you an attorney to call. Okay,
we're going to give you somebody to call. Okay, so
give me the number and I'll call them. Well, what
(27:47):
I didn't know is also that the US attorney, all
bunch of them, were in the room next door to me,
and they gave me a phone number to call. And
I called that federal employee and he didn't answer. Then
I told the FBI by the way, he didn't answer,
(28:08):
They called him and yelled at him answer the phone.
I called him again. He didn't answer, So I asked
if I could call my own attorney, And at that
point I called the best litigator I knew that I
worked with. I handled his kids, I worked with his kids.
(28:29):
And then he referred me to another attorney because he
didn't handle federal matters. I called that other attorney, and ironically,
when he got on the phone with me, he started laughing.
I told him who I was, and I said, why
are you laughing? And he said, do you know who
(28:51):
I am? I said, absolutely, no, I don't. I just
know your name is Don, he goes. I am Don Heller.
You worked with both of my kids. You spent years
in my home. I know you and what you do intimately,
(29:11):
and I appreciate everything that you did for my family.
You made an unbelievable significant difference in my two kids,
and thank you. Hold on, let me call the US
attorney who's in charge here, and let me ask him
where we stand. He had called the US attorney, Eric Rosen.
(29:35):
Eric talked to him, and he called me back and said,
you are screwed. He said, you are the smartest, dumbest
person I know. And I said why, he goes, because
you would not be in this situation had you just
(29:56):
picked up the phone and called an attorney and asked
him if what you were doing was kosher. He said,
you were living in the gray area, and the government
they make their own definitions of the gray area. They
can make anything into anything they want, and they got you.
(30:21):
They've been wiring your phone, your emails, they have all
your financial records. They know exactly what they're doing, and
based on their definition of quid pro quo and their
definition of bribe, they're going to charge you.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
You had profited handsomely from your activities, and I assume
you grew accustomed to a certain lifestyle. I know there's
back and forth about how much money you really made here,
but prosecutors say you used fifteen million dollars of your
client's money for your own benefit.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
When did it sink in for you that life as
you knew it was essentially over when.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I got done with that weekend that they made me
stay in Boston. But I didn't profit from that money.
That money was not used for me. That money was
used to propel what we were doing for the students,
and the money was being given to the universities. The
(31:22):
money was given to the proctors. The money was not
given and was not given to me to use for
my personal self. It was all money that went out
and I hired an ex FBI forensics person who actually
put all that together. And we were never given the
(31:43):
opportunity to give that to the DOJ and to the
US attorney. They didn't care. They already started their case
and they moved on, and so I had to just
move on and accept whatever they're going to say. They're
going to say, and that's kind of where we were.
So when you if you keep saying that I cooperated
(32:06):
and I accepted the I accepted all the charges. That
means I accepted it from them, but personally I didn't
accept it.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
I think people have trouble believing this idea that you
didn't profit from this interview.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
That's okay, everybody is. Everybody's welcoming in there.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Your lifestyle didn't change one iota.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
No, because the reality this is a tiny smart part
of my business.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
We had, Ah, why were you ordered to pay more
than ten million dollars in restitution to the IRS if
you hadn't made money.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I'm not being ordered to pay over ten million to DIRS.
I'm actually now in a restoration cause. So let's talk
about this. Two weeks to a month before I was
ready to go to camp, we were told that I
owed them ten million dollars.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
That's what I'm reading for exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
We said, this is crazy. Where did you come up
with that number. You just made up a number.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
So what is the just rick? Briefly, what is the
status of all of this? I didn't pull the number
out of thin air, as you know. So do you
owe money to the government or no?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I do owevernment. I owe money to the government.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
And there's an ongoing dispute about how much.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Now the dispute is over because I had to agree
to a four point seven million dollar restoration. We are
still on every paper, including the paper you have, still
shows ten million. We're waiting for the status of the
restoration and the four point seven million, not ten million
(33:47):
and under thank you for the clericy, and we still
don't agree with the four to seven but we had
to agree so we can move on, so I could
get sentenced and we can move on with my life.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Are you in money troubles though? No, you feel financially.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Secure now I feel I'm okay.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
So I want to ask you a little bit about
your experience in the prison camp. You were there for
sixteen months in prison camp in Pensacola, Florida. It's a
minimum security facility. I've heard media reports described as cushy.
What was your experience like though?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Well, I think that media report was back when Barbara
Walters did an interview and came to campus and was
so surprised that there was a pool there, There were
tennis courts there, There was all these things there, and
she said, how could this be a prison? Right? Let
(34:38):
me tell you there's no pool there anymore. Okay, there
are tennis courts. So my experience was as good as
it could be. So when I got there, the first
thing I did, I was told that the first thing
you need to do is get a great job. So
(35:04):
I went through what they call R and D, which
is when they take your clothes, they give you your
new outfit, they give you an ID and all that stuff.
And the second I got done, I ran to the
fitness center and to the recreation officers and ask for
(35:26):
a job, because I knew the way to make this
experience positive was you have to have a job that
you didn't mind going to every day.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Did you find it to be an unpleasant experience?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
No?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I am curious whether you offered any college consulting advice
to anyone in the prison camp.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Actually I offered a lot. There are a lot of
gentlemen there that have been prison for a while and
are relatively young folks compared to me, and they have
kids at home, they have five year old through eighteen
year olds, and they would come to me and ask
(36:08):
me how they could help their kids be stronger in
school and get more opportunities down the road. So what
I did do is I worked with a lot of
families there where the dads would call the mom or
the grandmother whoever's taking care of the younger kids, and
(36:30):
ask the questions that I needed to know, which was
what was the lexile level of their kids, what was
the math level of their kids? And then my family
would send from Amazon directly books to their house to
do workbooks that I gave to my own son to
do when he was going through the process to help
(36:52):
their kids garner a better foundation and figure out what
their kids didn't know and what they did know so
that they had a chance.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
You mentioned your son. I think he was probably in
his twenties. I think when the FBI approached you to
have that about right, I think so, I'm curious about
conversations you've had with him, if you're comfortable talking about it.
I'm curious about conversations you've had with your family.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
About this, well, let me tell you, did.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
You feel the need to ask forgiveness of them or no.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
To be frank with you, my family, generations over generations
have been involved with the FBI for years, and they
already think the FBI is despicable. They have been involved
with lots of things that have been turned around on
our family and other things that have happened, so they
(37:45):
don't believe half the stuff that goes on, and they
do know that the FBI and the US attorneys do
whatever they want to do. You pretty much have no
chance when you have to deal with the DOJ. So
you either accept what they're going to provide to you,
and that's why I accepted the cooperation, or you fight
(38:07):
them and you get a worse penalty. I will tell
you of people in my camp that went to court
and were offered a plea deal and got six to
ten years extra because they fought it.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
You may not agree with the government's complete case. I
understand that, but you have accepted responsibility one hundred percent,
and you have told me on multiple occasions today that
you know what you did was wrong one hundred percent.
I'm curious about being in a high profile situation that
is potentially embarrassing whether you had difficult conversations at all
with your family about that.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
They're not difficult conversations. You make them difficult. I don't
make them difficult. We're having conversations as a family would
not every conversation is happy, go lucky, and not every
conversation is pleasant when when you talk about reality, I
took full responsibility. There is nothing that the government said
(39:04):
I did the actual of doing the things I did.
He did everything that they said I did. You can
define it differently than I do, but I did every
single thing they said.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I think this is a complicated way of me asking
if you ever felt shame.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Oh, I feel shame all the time because I feel
bad that my family's name had to be involved. I
feel terrible that my son, at the time, when he
was graduating school and in finishing seminary, that he had
to be thrown into this. So I feel disappointment in
(39:46):
myself shame, not maybe the shame that you think of,
but just shame that I was stupid. I could have
stopped all of this, all of it, by getting the
appropriate advice from counsel. Listen, it was my fault and
(40:09):
all I had to do is call an attorney, and
the attorney could have said to me, WHOA, what you're
doing is wrong?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Am I wrong to be worried? Though, Rick? Because you're
still getting up at four o'clock in the morning. You've
done more by six am than I'll probably do today.
You said you're taking twenty to thirty calls about nil
this sort of thing. A person might hear this and
think Rick's gonna get into this same stuff again.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Actually, I'm a lot smarter.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
So there's gonna be another gray area.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
I know there's gonna be no gray are there's gonna
be black and white because my first call is always
too an attorney. My first thought is I only want
to live in black and white if it's not black
and it's not white, and it's not for certain, I'm
(41:02):
going to find out the truth. Do parents want to
work with me? Should they want to work with me?
Just know this, I am going to do everything I
possibly can for my families that is lawful. I am
not going to break the rules. I am not going
(41:23):
to do anything that council doesn't say is absolutely black
and white.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Well, look, I really appreciate you taking time to talk
to us about all of this and your candor and
your time are so appreciated. Thank you so much, and
I appreciate you. After our interview with Rick Singer, we
contacted the US Attorney's Office for the District of Massachusetts
(41:50):
and we asked about any ongoing negotiations over what mister
Singer owes the government. Without elaboration, a spokeswoman for the
office wrote in an email, as it stands, mister Singer
has an outstanding ten million dollar judgment. This is the
(42:10):
last episode of season two, so you won't see new
episodes in our feed for a few weeks, but we'll
have a special summer series that we think you'll enjoy,
and we're excited to bring you season three in the fall.
If you have any thoughts or questions about the show,
we'd love to hear from you. You can email us
at College Matters at Chronicle dot com. I'm Jack Stripling.
Thanks so much for listening. College Matters from the Chronicle
(42:34):
is a production of the Chronicle of Higher Education, the
nation's leading independent newsroom covering colleges. If you like the show,
please leave us a review or invite a friend to listen,
and remember to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcast so that you never miss an episode.
You can find an archive of every episode, all of
our show notes, and much more at Chronicle dot com
(42:56):
slash college Matters. We are produced by Rococo Punch. Our
Chronicle producer is Fernanda Zamudio Suarez. Our podcast artwork is
by Katrell Thomas. Special thanks to our colleagues Brock Read,
Sarah Brown, Carmen Mendoza, Ron Coddington, Joshua Hatch, and all
of the people at the Chronicle who make this show possible.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!