June 21, 2023 • 44 mins
Immigration in America is a humanitarian crisis and a political disaster. It has been for years. In this episode, Khalil and Ben talk to immigration lawyer, artist and activist Carolina Rubio-MacWright about current immigration policy, and what’s happening today in cities like Chicago and New York with ballooning populations of immigrants sent from border states. Carolina also shares the innovative ways she uses art and advocacy to connect with people at the heart of the crisis, people whom most of us can’t live without.
To learn more about Carolina’s workshops: https://www.touchingland.org/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Push it. I'm Khalide Jubon Mohammad.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Ben Austen. We are two best.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Friends, one African American.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
One white Caucasian.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is
some of my best friends are.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You know, like I'm not a racist, some of my
best friends are immigrants. In this show, we wrestle with
the challenges.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And the absurdities of a deeply.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Divided and unequal country.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And today we're going to talk about immigration. It is
an ongoing humanitarian crisis. But we have someone on the
show today who is going to help us understand what
is happening at the border, in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And New York, all over the.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Place, and help us figure out how to do something
about it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah. Yeah, we are talking to Carolina Rubio mcwright. She's
an immigration lawyer, artist, and activist fighting for immigrant rights.
Carolina immigrated to the US from Bogata, Columbia when she
was nineteen, and really she's committed her whole life to
improving the system. She's going to talk to us about
current immigration policies and share some innovative ways that we
(01:40):
can all lend a hand in this crisis. Khalil. That's right,
So let's get to this interview.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Let's do it. Carolina Rubio mcwright. What an amazing name
and an amazing person. Welcome to some of my best friends.
I'm so excited to have you on the show.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Thank you so much. Killy, I'm so excited.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
I've always been a big fan and very excited to
finally meet Ben.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
That's wonderful. I'm excited to meet you too.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
We love.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
We love when our guests are not only among our
best friends, but also our listeners to the show. You
and my wife are big running buddies, like close friends,
and our family spend a lot of time together. But
this is a new relationship. So so here's my confession.
On one of the first runs that I joined with
(02:35):
this group, I meet you and you know, you have
all this running gear on, like this vest and this
water pack, and even to this day, I don't on
one of those fancy water packs. But here's the thing.
We were doing like some speed work and I was like,
she's snow as shit, Like in my head, that's what
I was thinking.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
This is where I have to apologize for my friends.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So here's the thing, though, here's the thing, Carolina, I
had no idea at the time that you are a
fucking badass ultra marathon or and that like literally you
are right now training for a seventy mile race somewhere
in the world, somewhere with elevations and one hundred degree temperatures,
(03:24):
and so I'm like, holy smoke. So I learned this later,
I was like, oh man, did I get that wrong?
I love it.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
I'm glad that you thought I was so slow. And
one day, you know, maybe I'll gift you a vest
so you can join me in these like longer excursions
in the woods.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Wow, that's right, Carolina. I'm excited to learn more from
you about US immigration issues and what feels like a
crisis and maybe it's a perpetual crisis. And maybe a
way to start is could you just describe what your
work is on immigration.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
Yeah, so it's it's been kind of a long journey,
and it really starts from being an immigrant myself here
when I was nineteen, and so a lot of where
I am right now is dictated by that very long journey.
I've created sort of a place where I call the Estuary,
which is a mix of law and art, which is
(04:23):
what I do. I do a lot of activism depending
on who's in power. I went through policy, I did
capital punishment cases. I've done a lot of different different
pieces of work connected to immigration always, but my focus
is really in producing resources and sort of staying in
this place of the imagination where we can think of
(04:44):
new options and routes and ways for immigration to occur
in the world. And so currently I produce resources. I
run a nonprofit called Touching Land. I don't represent people
in courts anymore. I do only if I'm working inside
a detention center, and I usually only do that when
(05:05):
there's a crisis, which seems to happen like a lot
in this country far as immigration, if we're not like
using it as a pond for political gains and so so. Yeah,
So I created this nonprofit where I create ways in
which people can learn their rights in somatic ways, whether
it's through sound, through singing, through clay, through all sorts
(05:29):
of different ways, so that the information stays in their bodies,
so that it's not just like completely inaccessible words that
are passing through their heads.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Two things quickly, I love the metaphor of an estuary
I'm thinking of like this swirl of water and it
just sort of sits there. That's beautiful. And then this
notion of like art and things that stay in your
body as opposed to words that just pass over and through.
You really, really, really beautifully said.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Yeah, I think we are so brainy, you know, and
we're stuck in the brain and in our phones and
sort of we're in bodies for a reason. Otherwise we'd
be like flying brains, right And to me being in
the body, I mean, that's why I run so much.
It's the way that I feel freedom in my body
when I live in structures of oppression that don't like
(06:23):
the way I sound, the way I look, or the
way I move the way I think.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Carolyn, I want to talk about try to even understand
what's happening in the country right now, even on a
policy level, And a way maybe to frame our conversation
is to describe what's going on in Chicago right now,
which is where I live. I know you guys are
in the suburbs in New Jersey, and to use to
use Chicago as a way to try to understand the
(06:50):
bigger issues nationally. And so you might already know this
but last August, the Texas governor Greg Abbott, he sent
a first bus load of migrants to Chicago as a
kind of political stunt, using human beings as a political
tool and you know, making more liberal parts of the
country have to deal with what places on the border
(07:11):
have been grappling with, and in a lot of ways,
his stunt has worked. So since then, in the last year,
Chicago has seen about ten thousand refugees come to the city,
mostly from Central America and South America, you know, via
Mexico and then Texas, and it's been kind of crazy
(07:33):
in Chicago. So in the city, we've put up these
emergency shelters. They've been set up there. There are hundreds
of families who are sleeping in Chicago police stations on
the floor and you know, as if the police are
the ones who were prepared to take care of people.
There was this debate in the city council last week
(07:54):
about another fifty one million dollars going to care for
these people, and there's been all kinds of backlash that
this has created, especially in black communities and historically under
resource communities who worried about these resources now going to
new arrivals, which is sort of maybe exactly what the
(08:14):
Texas governor hope would happen. So all of this is
going on, it's incredibly visible and visceral here in Chicago.
And then so here's my question, what is going on
nationally that's creating the situation here, this crisis? What are
the policies that are happening.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
The crisises Our communities are sort of going through the
aftermath of COVID nineteen and so many businesses like not working,
and then you dump all these immigrants with no process,
no structure. And what's interesting is this is what I've
been dealing with at the border for the last twenty years.
(08:55):
This is what activists have been dealing with at the
border from the beginning, except that with these buses, they
actually lied to people and they just put them in
buses like they did with Martha's Vineyard.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
They're like, you're to go to.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
New York or we're going to have resources for you.
And unlike your responsible shelters in borders, make sure that
whoever people migrating and that have successfully crossed will make
it to a family member, a cousin, someone they know
that can help them in this situation. They just grab
people and dump them in Colorado. They did that last
(09:31):
last week in uh in Chicago and in these these
very you know, or progressive cities in order to really
pin us against each other, which is the whole that's
the whole point. Unfortunately, the Immigration Naturalization Act, which was
drafted in the sixties, has not changed.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Our policies have not changed. And while policy.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
Remains obviously in like Congress, there's a lot of leeway
for for the president.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah yeah, So like while Congress is fighting over new legislation,
who's ever president can take their our own actions and
set some policy. So the situation on the ground feels
like it's always shifting and it's confusing.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Correct, And so with each presidency you have like new rules,
new regulations that completely shift the way that we welcome people.
And in between these two you have international laws, like
asylum laws that have been enacted. We are supposed to
welcome immigrants that cross and are in American soil, whether
(10:36):
through the river or through the bridge. And so there's
nothing new here except that they're just pushing our cities
and our resources and creating and causing chaos.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Nothing you here, yeah, yeah, I want to jump in
on this because a couple of quick points. One, I
have a relative, a cousin, who works for the Boston
Medical Center, and she was sending me texts about how
many asylum seekers were staying in various parts of the hospital.
I think Ben's question raises the question as to sharing
(11:13):
the burden of our failed immigration policies from red states
to blue states, from the border to blue cities. And
the Boston City administration, which is liberal, you know, was
like blaming the state for not having a plan, and
the state was putting it on the hospital to deal
with it, and so no one was taking ownership of
(11:33):
like the crisis, the humanitarian crisis that exists.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Absolutely, And I want to say, like, obviously this is
creating a crisis, but this is the aftermath of Trump's
policies and sort of bottlenecking everyone at the border.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That now are you talking about two?
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
We'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
So Title forty two was enacted right in March of
twenty twenty, and it was a bullshit policy, basically saying
nobody can be allowed in because they're going to bring
like a terrible disease.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So everyone has this was COVID. This is March twenty
twenty a COVID policy. This was basically using the COVID
pandemic as an excuse to build on Trump's family separation policy,
which really was really about self deportation. Right, We're going
to scare the hell out of immigrants. We're going to
tear their families apart so they don't even think about
coming to the United States. And then Title forty two
(12:31):
is initiated during COVID to say and don't bring this disease.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
With you exactly exactly, you know, with Title forty two,
then so much more happened in the sense that now
people are stuck. Now we don't have farmers, now we
don't have enough people working in like the kitchens, because
this is the normal flow of people north and of
reunifying with your families. So then Biden tried to shut
(12:58):
down Title forty two and bring it down, which was
one of his promises during his elections. Right, it is
a humanitarian crisis, I mean it continues.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
This is sort of the.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Aftermath where now Biden was trying to lift it, and
then the attorney generals from certain states got together and said, actually, no,
we think that Title forty two should remain, and it
ended up in the Supreme Court. However, with Biden then
declaring that COVID, you know, is no longer a crisis,
(13:31):
a health crisis in our country, that made the issue
moot for the Supreme Court to review. So right now
Title forty two is no longer you know. It was
lifted May eleventh, and so there.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Was complete chaos at the border.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Because now we're going to have Title eight, which is
like sort of a new old policy but with a
lot more with a lot more sort of issues. But
asylum law allows people to claim asylum regardless of where
they enter, and this new policy is preventing people from
coming in through the river. They will be deported and
(14:06):
they will be not allowed to come into the country
for at least five years.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So people are scared.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
I was at the border two weeks ago, and you know,
it feels the same as it did in the last
two years. I mean, same chaos, but I'm seeing more
Chinese immigrants, more Russian immigrants.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Coming through Mexico, the border with Mexico.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Through the border of Mexico because now, you know, and
I think all of this ties in with the fact
that we are not connecting the climate crisis with immigration.
And I have been seeing, you know, last in December,
I took we spent Christmas as a family at the
border and we met a lot of Ecuadorian indigenous people,
(14:49):
and like when indigenous people migrate, you know, I'm like,
why are you coming here? You have so much ancestral knowledge,
and unless it's like political persecution, like why are you here?
You're working at Walmart is just not going to do
it for you. And they had a flood last year
that destroyed huge indigenous region and now there's no agriculture
(15:12):
and there's no tourism and there's nothing. So they're migrating
north to whoever family member lives up in the north
so that they can find a way to live.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I love that you had that simple question of why
why you know, why come? If you know it's so
difficult to hear people's stories, just to clarify, to try
to understand. So Biden's policy, which is called Title eight,
which is not a new policy. The difference I think
I'm understanding is that it's more punitive. Is that supposed
to be a deterrent to others stories?
Speaker 5 (15:44):
It's supposed to be a deterrent, and that's only for
people crossing in the river. And the other big point
is that anybody that is seeking asylum has and if
they didn't come from Mexico, are going to have to
prove that they seek the asylum somewhere along.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
The journey prior to entering the US.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
So like if you come from Columbia, like you better
look for asylum in Panama, Atemala, you know all of
these other countries that you're going to cross through before
you come to the US. And that's not what asylum
lies about. That's going to be challenged.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
That's really clarifying. And I also think it's important to
note because the title a policy was already in place
in the Obama administration at a time when Obama was
sort of the first post George Bush president to toughen
up border patrol and make a kind of political stand
(16:39):
on excluding people who had been here a long time
but for those who were young people in college, the
so called dreamers, and so Obama ended up with the
nickname to Porter in Chief precisely because his own border
policies were considered to some degree unfair, inhumane, and ratcheting
(17:01):
up this notion that these people are unwelcome Carolina. Obviously,
this is a mess. Policy wise, it's complicated. It's easy
to point fingers at the Trump administration for most people
who are listening to this show. But as I just
pointed out, this is a problem. As you've continually said,
that is an old problem, and we haven't done much
(17:21):
to fix it. So when we come back from the break,
we're going to talk about what laws and policies need
to change in order to fix this mess. So listen.
(17:42):
America has often beat its chest as the most exceptional
place on Earth, and you'll often hear talking points from
conservatives and Republicans that if it's so bad in America,
according to racial justice and social justice advocates, why do
immigrants keep coming? And I'm taken with the contradictions, to
(18:03):
be sure, but the truth is America has always exploited
immigrants for economic game. The trade off here is that
you can come to this country if you're willing to
do the lowest, most dangerous, and least paid kind of
work in this country. And so the narrative of a
nation of immigrants is the narrative of poor people coming
(18:23):
here in search of opportunity in search of their pot
of gold, only to find that they're doing the scut
work in this country. And it's also a country that's
had incredible xenophobia, a country that has had nativist political
movements that go back to the eighteen hundreds, you know,
shortly after the country was founded. So let's talk about
Congress and its failure to not pass new immigration laws.
(18:47):
I mean, what is the conversation among immigrant advocates about
solving that problem.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
I mean, I think you can't sort of dive into
the solution without understanding that immigration policy was enacted in
the sixties, right, you know, after the Second World War.
All our men were gone, so we were like, oh it,
no one's garden, no one's doing the agricultural stuff. We
need our stuff, So okay, I guess let's do the kids.
(19:15):
And also, oh wait, there's the Mexican people can come
and like harvest for us. And guess what they're asking
for way less money than what other people are asking for.
And so we sort of create this reliance and dependency
on seasonal workers.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
You know, they don't want to be here.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
I think that's sort of one thing that I try
to tell people, and it's like I wanted to be
in my country, and I wanted to be with my people,
with my flavor, with my things.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
I didn't have to.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
I didn't want to go through this entire transformation of
fitting in and the chameleon and sort of code switching
and language barriers.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
But it's forced.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Migration, right, like you're forced because that's your only option.
And so in this situation we create this dependency. But
the border is sort of fluid, right. People can come in,
they work, they leave. And then in the eighties we said,
you know enough we need We're not doing this. We're
going to create a three and ten nearbars And so
(20:10):
if you stay in this country with no documentation for
more than half a year, you are going to the
moment that you step out of the country, you're not
going to be allowed back in for three years. If
you stay for longer than one year, you can come
back for ten years. And so that caused a huge
problem for people because they were you know, they were
investing in their communities, making the money and building a
(20:32):
house at Ranchito, you know, and their count in their
country and in their place.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
And they had to choose.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
So a lot of separation happened there where you know,
moms and dads or dads came and they started working,
sending money back home. And so when that that created
a that changed the dynamic because there was no longer
this movement.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Across right, Carolina, just I want to understand this clearly
when you're describing the policy in the nineteen eighties, that
changed what came before it, and was what came before
is sustainable. If things had not changed in the nineteen eighties,
we had something that was more viable, more humane.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I don't know if it was necessarily viable, but I
do think that it was more human because the issue
you have now is amongst those twelve million undocumented people
in the US are people who entered through the river
we call them ewis entering without inspection.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
So they entered, they maybe never had.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
A passport, they stayed here, and then now they married
a US citizen. But because they entered without being inspected
in a passport, in a stamp, they can't adjust unless
they go back to their country and seek a waiver
of like a pardon. If they say you're not allowed in,
you're not allowed in. And so you have all of
these people that are married to US citizens with US
(21:53):
citizen children that are in limbo that can't you know,
are paying their taxes because like immigrants pay billions of
dollars in taxes, there's literally no way for them to
make a line and become legal, Like there's no line,
there's no viable visas, no viable route for them to
come into the country.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
So it's a failure. It's a huge failure.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
And unfortunately it's what is a political pawn for every election.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
You know, they start talking.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
About caravans, they start talking about their invading our country,
and so it's and in reality they are keeping our
economy going because the avocado that you and I get
in the supermarket that we paid two bucks for actually
costs eight dollars. If you're going to humanize and pay
labor workers what they deserve, yeah, nobody wants that.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Well, you know, you know it is so both rich
and complicated about this conversation is how much the problem
that you describe been talking about this change in the
nineteen eighties. You know, what happened before that was really
trusting the agency of people whose own self interest was
(23:05):
still back home, which is to say they came to
work to to remit payments back to their families to
build what they needed back home, and of course occasionally
those people made lives for themselves here. Of course, some
of those people married and had children, which is of
course why for over twenty years Republicans have talked about
repealing birthright citizenship in the fourteenth Amendment, which is just fascinating, right.
(23:28):
I mean, it's literally undercut one of the core pillars
of our constitution, which grows out of the end of slavery,
but represents kind of this commitment to people who are
born in this country. But here's the thing. This is
the thing, Carolina that I always teach my students on
this subject, and that is that if immigrants came here
and shut up and did their jobs and went home
(23:49):
when they were told, if they were subjected to all
of the workplace violations that happened and meet meat packing plants,
if they were subjected to abuse picking oranges in Florida
or harvesting sugarcane in Louisiana and Texas and they never
complained about it, then everybody who is in control of
these policies would be fucking happy. But guess what, when
(24:13):
people demand to be seen, when they demand their dignity
when they demand respect. That's the problem. That's where those
laws came from in the nineteen eighties because immigrant people
had it to marry it and say, you don't have
a right to treat me this way, and they started
to organize, and so these laws have become more punitive
because people who were giving backbreaking labor to this country
(24:33):
demanded to be treated like human beings.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes, so Carolina, you're you know what Khalilsid is really
powerful and you maybe are starting to answer this a
little bit yourself and what you said, But what what
would a more humane and even sensible immigration policy look like? Like?
What do we want?
Speaker 5 (24:55):
I mean, I think we want to allow people that
have been here, you know, those twelve million documented people
that have been living here for years, to actually live
without having to worry about every siren that they hear
and and living sort of in constant anxiety and fear.
I think that, you know, we could create new systems
(25:17):
and new visas and new alternatives to living where you know,
people want to live in their country of origin.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
The problem is American politics also.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Have completely intervened in government elections and brought weapons down
south and done so much sort of intervening that people
don't want to go back to their countries because they
might not be safe. But for me, it's like we
can invite people and welcome people with dignity.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
I think, you know, when you have violent.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
Crimes against women specifically, I feel like for asylum law,
women should be given the ability to seek asylum just
because they're women. You know, the macho, the machismo and
femicide is so prevalent that I would you know, I'd
love for that to be included in an asylum to reckon.
(26:09):
But I think we could create welcoming centers and a
lot more visas that are specific. You know, I was
working in Brooklyn and we were talking about a potential
program in the border in order to develop and invest
in border cities. And the idea was people that didn't
quite qualify for DHAKA would be given two or three
(26:30):
year contracts where.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
They could work in border towns and.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Teach sort of whatever it is that their gift was,
and they would have a salary, they would have dental,
they would have everything sort of promise to them so
that the anxiety of being in limbo could be sort
of forgotten and they could go back to breathing, you know,
they could just breathe lightly for a minute, and that
all got destroyed with the Trump administration. Women's Refugee Commission
(26:57):
did a project and they actually found out that if
we had a caseworker at the border working with people
in their cases and seeing how viable migration and success
would be in this country, they had ninety nine percent
of success as far as people showing up to court.
And so there's been some studies and other alternatives to
(27:17):
asylum and migration that have been proposed that are successful.
Perhaps it's like temporary visas. Maybe we prioritize families and
people that have connections to this, you know, the ground,
the soil here.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
There is a proposal in Congress now, I don't know
how much traction it has. It's called the Dignity Act.
I don't know if you followed this. And it's bipartisan
in the sense that it has both Republican and Democratic
sponsors from border states, and it has a little bit
of everything. You could see a kind of compromise bill
like that. There is a lot of money for building
the wall, you know, like more border security. There's also
(27:52):
a pathway for Dreamers to get full citizenship, and sort
of maybe the heart of it is that there are
these programs for you know, all eligible undocumented immigrants to
stay here permanently, you know, if they follow a bunch
of rules and over a bunch of years, have you
(28:14):
followed that? And does that seem like a possible solution
or does it seem like the kind of proposals that
always get put up by by just one or two
or a handful of lawmakers.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
So I'll answer it this way. So, right before Trump
took office, I worked for Mom's Rising. They work for
economic equality for families around the US, and I did policy.
I was basically did policy for immigration matters for this nonprofit,
and I realized that nothing was going to change if
(28:48):
the Dream Act did not pass in twenty ten, if
the Dream Act did not pass during Obama.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Like, the Dream Act is not going to pass.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
I think we have some advocates in Congress that are
that are strong and that are advocating for many years in.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Order to change legislation.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
But I don't really follow too many of those legislations
because I'm actually busy trying to find ways to not
gain the system, but to make sure that people have
an opportunity the people that are coming here, the people
that are already here, so that they have an opportunity
to actually establish themselves legally here and to fight back
(29:26):
and demand higher salaries, demand you know, call the cops
if they're being abused, Demand that their kids have the
proper access to education or to resources, you know, health
and services resources. So I don't I mean, I keep
tabs on some of it, but it's just a game,
and the border is the same as it was twenty
(29:48):
years ago. So I prefer to give tools to my
people because I do believe making sure that these new
immigrant citizens feel like they belong here, feel like they
can really be who they are. They're the ones that
are going to end up in Congress one day, and
they're the ones that are really going to change the law.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yes, yes, Carolina, we're going to take a short break
and we come. We want to hear more about the
work you actually are doing and that you're excited about
these creative responses that you're describing.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Welcome back to some of my best friends are Carolina.
You've done a really masterful job helping to explain really
really complicated public policy. I mean the kind of stuff
that most people simply don't really understand.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
There's one like me.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
There's one big There's one big takeaway that you just
left us on before the break, which is that Congress
isn't going to fix this anytime soon. Meaningful legislation in
Congress is a tall order these days. But that being said,
I really want to lean into the bread and butter,
(31:08):
the heart and soul of what you do. I've heard
you talk about, I've seen your work. You know, as
an artist first before you became an advocate, you turned
to the imagination. You turn to the ability to help
people to tell stories, to see themselves. And I'm going
(31:28):
to quote you here in this Ted talk you gave.
You said, art is the embodiment of that better future
you can imagine for yourself. So let's talk about you
as the visual artist turned advocate and blending all of
those skills and to legal representation, human rights, creative interventions.
You are an award winning artist. You've been telling your
(31:51):
story of being from Bogata, Colombia, where civil war ravaged
the country. What is this art practice that you engage
in as you do your immigrant advocacy work.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
So, like I said, it's it's very somatic at the beginning.
It's very somatic andocus in teaching immigrants their rights and
also creating spaces where people from different communities can come together,
so citizens non citizens can come together and sort of
really see each other as humans. I have all sorts
(32:24):
of different workshops, but let me tell you about the
salsa making Fourth Amendment workshop for delivery.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
That sounds yummy already. I'm like, you know, I want sauce,
I want to know my rights.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Yes, I mean so, I do these workshops mostly at companies,
say Spotify or other bigger corporations, And I bring fifteen
delivery workers and fifteen workers from Spotify. I sit them
down and then we cut tomatoes. We talk about the tomatoes,
about the onions.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Is the sauce and chips just a social way to
spend time together and break bread, so to speak? Or
is it actually a teaching tool? Do you talk about
you know, the experience of the delivery workers or where
the food is sourced?
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Absolutely, I mean a lot of the food we will grow,
like in Bruckner Garden in the Bronx, where where it
gives us an end to talk about how one in
three kids have asthma in the bronx and one in
four kids once they reach the age of eighteen will
end up in the car sool system. At some point
we talk about Fourth Amendment, stop and frisk, We start
(33:30):
talking about just all the rights that you have and
for allies to understand that.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
YO, if you're in.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
The subway and you see someone being stopped and it's
a person of color, like stop, make eye contact, turn
on the app that I have them download so that
they can videotape everything and make sure that you in
that moment, can become part of a community and you
can make sure that this person will be safe.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
We give cards that say, hello.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
Officer, I'm exercising my right to remain in silence. I
will not say a word until I speak with my lawyer.
I know I have a right to a call. And
then keep it with you so that if you are
stopped any time, you know that you can cover yourself
and protect yourself with this card.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
This is simultaneously you're both educating the immigrant communities and
other people about immigrant communities and how to be part
of that's that's going on simultaneously.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
That's happening on simultaneously because it's humanizing the other.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Right.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Delivery workers are the most invisible people in the world.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
I mean, like they give you your food.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
You don't even know if they have black hair, if
they talk to you short, tall. You just got your food.
That's all you care about, and you don't realize the
hard work that it takes navigating the city, you know,
in the snow and the rain and the heat, and
so in sharing a chip, so it's in you know,
seeing that the person is you know, likes mountain dew
cherry or whatever it is that you're like, oh, somebody
(34:54):
else likes the And it's those interactions that when this
person thinks about an immigrant, he's going to think about
Josse that took that class with you, and he's not
going to think about the dude he read about or
the numbers he read about on the news. So everything
is very I approached my artwork in a very lawyer way,
(35:15):
and I approached my law work in a very artistic way.
So yeah, it's you know, a really cool project that
we did two years ago during the pandemic was we
did the ice Cream Truck of Rights, where we created
twenty four flavors of rights, like edgymanshipcation justice, and we
created cards with QR codes that led directly to the resources.
(35:39):
And the eleven languages in New York City has sanctioned
as languages to the city. It's really fun because it's
you know, we go into communities. We visited the hardest
COVID hit neighborhoods, the Five Boroughs, and we made sure
that community had you know, we focused on housing rights,
environmental rights, and immigration rights.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Those were the three that we focused and we had house.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
One of your flavors I have here is stop rum
raising the rent.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Yeah, stop raising the rent. So it's all of these
different flavors so that people could remember, could have like
a point of reference in order to remember in their
bodies what that right felt like and how they could
speak up for themselves and tap into their power.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Carolina, as you're as you're describing this work, you will
sound and you are so hopeful, and before as you're
talking about national policy, you sound a little hopeless. And
maybe maybe it's just about controlling the things you can
control and the spaces where you can can do something.
You can do something, And I wonder, you know, what
(36:43):
does that mean in terms of advice? You might have
for our listeners, people who are listening to this, like
in their local communities, you know, how can they pursue
justice and equity and tap into these issues in a
creative and meaningful way.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Absolutely, Ben, And you're right. I mean I am so
much more animated by this type of work because it's
the estuary, right, it's sort of the mix of both worlds,
and it's not like the policy in the hill. And
I think that you know, as humans, we think there's
like an aha moment in our lives, or we think
that climate change is going to be a ball blowing
up and killing all of us, and the cockroaches are
going to invade, and it's actually like very small, gradual
(37:23):
habit changes that need to occur.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
And for me, it's our community.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And so you say our community whatever your local community
is exactly.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
Yeah, it's working with your local community. It is in
those smaller steps. It is in realizing I can donate
these shoes to a family in the border and a
person that has crossed for three months barefoot or in
sandals is going to be comfortable, and that makes a
huge difference to that one person. I think we want
to create this like huge change, and like as kids,
(37:55):
you know, and as hopeful youth where like We're going
to change policy and I'm going to be in the
Supreme Court. And in reality, it's those connections that you
make in the every day, right, It's tapping into your community.
What can I do in this community in order or
to shift narratives the very same way that we do
with the workshops. You know, the clay workshops happen in Brooklyn,
and we bring different communities like stay at home moms
(38:19):
that are you know, doing pottery, and we bring the
immigrant communities, and then in the humanity in working next
to each other, they realize, man, I'm not paying them
necessarily for holidays. I should really pay for that. And
so it's in those smaller actions that true change happens.
So for the listeners, it's like, don't be hopeful and
(38:41):
actually reach out to whatever you're passionate about. If immigration
is not your passion then like, don't don't do that
because you're going to need a lot of momentum. If
it is racial equality, if it is you know, at
the environment, like tap into those communities and really get to.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Connect with human beings and others.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
And Carolyne I just want to say, not just thank you,
but you know you're you're inspiring. Thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah, and I just want to add you know, I've
spent a lot of time with you, but I learned
more about what you actually do today, and in particular,
I always thought that you were so focused on immigrant
rights and advocacy, but what you're really talking about is
changing this country and the world for the better no
(39:26):
matter who you are. When you're talking about know your rights,
it's not just immigration policy. It's about your right to
a living wage, to a decent home, to dignity, and man,
that is really inspiring. So I'm going to leave our
listeners with a quote from you, because I think this
is the perfect like wrap up to what you've described
about your work. You've said for me, if you don't
(39:49):
feel like you have a place at the table, you
don't just build a new table, you build a new house.
All right, Carolina, you are one badass woman. So you
keep on doing what you've been doing. And we're really
grateful to have you on the show.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
What a pleasure to be able to talk about what
I love with you.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Thank you so much. Thank you right, all right, Khalil.
It was amazing talking to Carolina, and she made me
think about what I said at the start of the
show about Chicago and all that's going on here with refugees,
(40:31):
and I talked about a backlash, but I have to
reevaluate that and accentuate the positive, because man, we have
also been a welcoming city. People have stepped up, black churches, neighbors,
community groups. You know, my father rode his bike over
(40:52):
to a soccer game the other day where the refugees
where they're living, They like do this every weekend. Okay,
there was a funeral that was held for somebody who
was in one of the shelters. And yeah, and I think,
you know, one of the things that this political stunt
from Texas has proven is that, you know, we can
do better. And I'm also I'm also proud of the
(41:13):
city because because this is important to welcome people.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
And I think that hearing from Carolina and having her
peel back the layers of all the ways that people
like herself who advocate on behalf of immigrants, who are
inspiring other people in communities small and large near the
border away from the border is exactly the antidote to
(41:40):
the politics of.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Fear and.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Danger and scarcity, like the notion that we don't have enough,
particularly since we are a country as wealthy as we are,
and part of our wealth comes from foreign policies that
take from other countries like Latin America, take their people,
take their resources. We actually have an obligation to not
only figure this out for the long term, but we
(42:08):
have an obligation the sh your term to do something
to help people. And I'm really proud of Carolina, and
I'm proud of your pops for helping out too.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
One small thing I'm gonna do when this episode comes out,
I'm donating to the Chicago Refugee Coalition and I'm going
to do a fundraiser so all the listeners look out
for it and and give generously.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
All Right, You're going to spam them with a Kickstarter
and go fund me solicitations.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
It's going to work out, all right, man. I'm proud
of you. You are stepping up.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I love you, man, I love you too.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me
Khalil Jbron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang.
It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keyshel Williams.
Our engineer is a Man Wang and our managing producer
is Constanza Guyardo.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
At Pushkin thanks to Leital Mollad, Julia Barton, Heather Fain,
Carly Migliori, John Schnarz, Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the
brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely
want to check out his music at his website Averyaryong
dot com.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin
pods and you can sign up for our newsletter at
pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
And if you like our show, please give us a
five star rating and a review and listen even if
you don't like it, give it a five star rating
and a review, and please tell all of your best
friends about it. Thank you.
Speaker 5 (44:10):
All.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Concerts maser s
Push it. I'm Khalide Jubon Mohammad.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Ben Austen. We are two best.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Friends, one African American.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
One white Caucasian.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is
some of my best friends are.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You know, like I'm not a racist, some of my
best friends are immigrants. In this show, we wrestle with
the challenges.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And the absurdities of a deeply.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Divided and unequal country.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And today we're going to talk about immigration. It is
an ongoing humanitarian crisis. But we have someone on the
show today who is going to help us understand what
is happening at the border, in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And New York, all over the.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Place, and help us figure out how to do something
about it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah. Yeah, we are talking to Carolina Rubio mcwright. She's
an immigration lawyer, artist, and activist fighting for immigrant rights.
Carolina immigrated to the US from Bogata, Columbia when she
was nineteen, and really she's committed her whole life to
improving the system. She's going to talk to us about
current immigration policies and share some innovative ways that we
(01:40):
can all lend a hand in this crisis. Khalil. That's right,
So let's get to this interview.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Let's do it. Carolina Rubio mcwright. What an amazing name
and an amazing person. Welcome to some of my best friends.
I'm so excited to have you on the show.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Thank you so much. Killy, I'm so excited.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
I've always been a big fan and very excited to
finally meet Ben.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
That's wonderful. I'm excited to meet you too.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
We love.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
We love when our guests are not only among our
best friends, but also our listeners to the show. You
and my wife are big running buddies, like close friends,
and our family spend a lot of time together. But
this is a new relationship. So so here's my confession.
On one of the first runs that I joined with
(02:35):
this group, I meet you and you know, you have
all this running gear on, like this vest and this
water pack, and even to this day, I don't on
one of those fancy water packs. But here's the thing.
We were doing like some speed work and I was like,
she's snow as shit, Like in my head, that's what
I was thinking.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
This is where I have to apologize for my friends.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So here's the thing, though, here's the thing, Carolina, I
had no idea at the time that you are a
fucking badass ultra marathon or and that like literally you
are right now training for a seventy mile race somewhere
in the world, somewhere with elevations and one hundred degree temperatures,
(03:24):
and so I'm like, holy smoke. So I learned this later,
I was like, oh man, did I get that wrong?
I love it.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
I'm glad that you thought I was so slow. And
one day, you know, maybe I'll gift you a vest
so you can join me in these like longer excursions
in the woods.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Wow, that's right, Carolina. I'm excited to learn more from
you about US immigration issues and what feels like a
crisis and maybe it's a perpetual crisis. And maybe a
way to start is could you just describe what your
work is on immigration.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
Yeah, so it's it's been kind of a long journey,
and it really starts from being an immigrant myself here
when I was nineteen, and so a lot of where
I am right now is dictated by that very long journey.
I've created sort of a place where I call the Estuary,
which is a mix of law and art, which is
(04:23):
what I do. I do a lot of activism depending
on who's in power. I went through policy, I did
capital punishment cases. I've done a lot of different different
pieces of work connected to immigration always, but my focus
is really in producing resources and sort of staying in
this place of the imagination where we can think of
(04:44):
new options and routes and ways for immigration to occur
in the world. And so currently I produce resources. I
run a nonprofit called Touching Land. I don't represent people
in courts anymore. I do only if I'm working inside
a detention center, and I usually only do that when
(05:05):
there's a crisis, which seems to happen like a lot
in this country far as immigration, if we're not like
using it as a pond for political gains and so so. Yeah,
So I created this nonprofit where I create ways in
which people can learn their rights in somatic ways, whether
it's through sound, through singing, through clay, through all sorts
(05:29):
of different ways, so that the information stays in their bodies,
so that it's not just like completely inaccessible words that
are passing through their heads.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Two things quickly, I love the metaphor of an estuary
I'm thinking of like this swirl of water and it
just sort of sits there. That's beautiful. And then this
notion of like art and things that stay in your
body as opposed to words that just pass over and through.
You really, really, really beautifully said.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Yeah, I think we are so brainy, you know, and
we're stuck in the brain and in our phones and
sort of we're in bodies for a reason. Otherwise we'd
be like flying brains, right And to me being in
the body, I mean, that's why I run so much.
It's the way that I feel freedom in my body
when I live in structures of oppression that don't like
(06:23):
the way I sound, the way I look, or the
way I move the way I think.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Carolyn, I want to talk about try to even understand
what's happening in the country right now, even on a
policy level, And a way maybe to frame our conversation
is to describe what's going on in Chicago right now,
which is where I live. I know you guys are
in the suburbs in New Jersey, and to use to
use Chicago as a way to try to understand the
(06:50):
bigger issues nationally. And so you might already know this
but last August, the Texas governor Greg Abbott, he sent
a first bus load of migrants to Chicago as a
kind of political stunt, using human beings as a political
tool and you know, making more liberal parts of the
country have to deal with what places on the border
(07:11):
have been grappling with, and in a lot of ways,
his stunt has worked. So since then, in the last year,
Chicago has seen about ten thousand refugees come to the city,
mostly from Central America and South America, you know, via
Mexico and then Texas, and it's been kind of crazy
(07:33):
in Chicago. So in the city, we've put up these
emergency shelters. They've been set up there. There are hundreds
of families who are sleeping in Chicago police stations on
the floor and you know, as if the police are
the ones who were prepared to take care of people.
There was this debate in the city council last week
(07:54):
about another fifty one million dollars going to care for
these people, and there's been all kinds of backlash that
this has created, especially in black communities and historically under
resource communities who worried about these resources now going to
new arrivals, which is sort of maybe exactly what the
(08:14):
Texas governor hope would happen. So all of this is
going on, it's incredibly visible and visceral here in Chicago.
And then so here's my question, what is going on
nationally that's creating the situation here, this crisis? What are
the policies that are happening.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
The crisises Our communities are sort of going through the
aftermath of COVID nineteen and so many businesses like not working,
and then you dump all these immigrants with no process,
no structure. And what's interesting is this is what I've
been dealing with at the border for the last twenty years.
(08:55):
This is what activists have been dealing with at the
border from the beginning, except that with these buses, they
actually lied to people and they just put them in
buses like they did with Martha's Vineyard.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
They're like, you're to go to.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
New York or we're going to have resources for you.
And unlike your responsible shelters in borders, make sure that
whoever people migrating and that have successfully crossed will make
it to a family member, a cousin, someone they know
that can help them in this situation. They just grab
people and dump them in Colorado. They did that last
(09:31):
last week in uh in Chicago and in these these
very you know, or progressive cities in order to really
pin us against each other, which is the whole that's
the whole point. Unfortunately, the Immigration Naturalization Act, which was
drafted in the sixties, has not changed.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Our policies have not changed. And while policy.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
Remains obviously in like Congress, there's a lot of leeway
for for the president.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah yeah, So like while Congress is fighting over new legislation,
who's ever president can take their our own actions and
set some policy. So the situation on the ground feels
like it's always shifting and it's confusing.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Correct, And so with each presidency you have like new rules,
new regulations that completely shift the way that we welcome people.
And in between these two you have international laws, like
asylum laws that have been enacted. We are supposed to
welcome immigrants that cross and are in American soil, whether
(10:36):
through the river or through the bridge. And so there's
nothing new here except that they're just pushing our cities
and our resources and creating and causing chaos.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Nothing you here, yeah, yeah, I want to jump in
on this because a couple of quick points. One, I
have a relative, a cousin, who works for the Boston
Medical Center, and she was sending me texts about how
many asylum seekers were staying in various parts of the hospital.
I think Ben's question raises the question as to sharing
(11:13):
the burden of our failed immigration policies from red states
to blue states, from the border to blue cities. And
the Boston City administration, which is liberal, you know, was
like blaming the state for not having a plan, and
the state was putting it on the hospital to deal
with it, and so no one was taking ownership of
(11:33):
like the crisis, the humanitarian crisis that exists.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Absolutely, And I want to say, like, obviously this is
creating a crisis, but this is the aftermath of Trump's
policies and sort of bottlenecking everyone at the border.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That now are you talking about two?
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
We'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
So Title forty two was enacted right in March of
twenty twenty, and it was a bullshit policy, basically saying
nobody can be allowed in because they're going to bring
like a terrible disease.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So everyone has this was COVID. This is March twenty
twenty a COVID policy. This was basically using the COVID
pandemic as an excuse to build on Trump's family separation policy,
which really was really about self deportation. Right, We're going
to scare the hell out of immigrants. We're going to
tear their families apart so they don't even think about
coming to the United States. And then Title forty two
(12:31):
is initiated during COVID to say and don't bring this disease.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
With you exactly exactly, you know, with Title forty two,
then so much more happened in the sense that now
people are stuck. Now we don't have farmers, now we
don't have enough people working in like the kitchens, because
this is the normal flow of people north and of
reunifying with your families. So then Biden tried to shut
(12:58):
down Title forty two and bring it down, which was
one of his promises during his elections. Right, it is
a humanitarian crisis, I mean it continues.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
This is sort of the.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Aftermath where now Biden was trying to lift it, and
then the attorney generals from certain states got together and said, actually, no,
we think that Title forty two should remain, and it
ended up in the Supreme Court. However, with Biden then
declaring that COVID, you know, is no longer a crisis,
(13:31):
a health crisis in our country, that made the issue
moot for the Supreme Court to review. So right now
Title forty two is no longer you know. It was
lifted May eleventh, and so there.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Was complete chaos at the border.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Because now we're going to have Title eight, which is
like sort of a new old policy but with a
lot more with a lot more sort of issues. But
asylum law allows people to claim asylum regardless of where
they enter, and this new policy is preventing people from
coming in through the river. They will be deported and
(14:06):
they will be not allowed to come into the country
for at least five years.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So people are scared.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
I was at the border two weeks ago, and you know,
it feels the same as it did in the last
two years. I mean, same chaos, but I'm seeing more
Chinese immigrants, more Russian immigrants.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Coming through Mexico, the border with Mexico.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Through the border of Mexico because now, you know, and
I think all of this ties in with the fact
that we are not connecting the climate crisis with immigration.
And I have been seeing, you know, last in December,
I took we spent Christmas as a family at the
border and we met a lot of Ecuadorian indigenous people,
(14:49):
and like when indigenous people migrate, you know, I'm like,
why are you coming here? You have so much ancestral knowledge,
and unless it's like political persecution, like why are you here?
You're working at Walmart is just not going to do
it for you. And they had a flood last year
that destroyed huge indigenous region and now there's no agriculture
(15:12):
and there's no tourism and there's nothing. So they're migrating
north to whoever family member lives up in the north
so that they can find a way to live.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I love that you had that simple question of why
why you know, why come? If you know it's so
difficult to hear people's stories, just to clarify, to try
to understand. So Biden's policy, which is called Title eight,
which is not a new policy. The difference I think
I'm understanding is that it's more punitive. Is that supposed
to be a deterrent to others stories?
Speaker 5 (15:44):
It's supposed to be a deterrent, and that's only for
people crossing in the river. And the other big point
is that anybody that is seeking asylum has and if
they didn't come from Mexico, are going to have to
prove that they seek the asylum somewhere along.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
The journey prior to entering the US.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
So like if you come from Columbia, like you better
look for asylum in Panama, Atemala, you know all of
these other countries that you're going to cross through before
you come to the US. And that's not what asylum
lies about. That's going to be challenged.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
That's really clarifying. And I also think it's important to
note because the title a policy was already in place
in the Obama administration at a time when Obama was
sort of the first post George Bush president to toughen
up border patrol and make a kind of political stand
(16:39):
on excluding people who had been here a long time
but for those who were young people in college, the
so called dreamers, and so Obama ended up with the
nickname to Porter in Chief precisely because his own border
policies were considered to some degree unfair, inhumane, and ratcheting
(17:01):
up this notion that these people are unwelcome Carolina. Obviously,
this is a mess. Policy wise, it's complicated. It's easy
to point fingers at the Trump administration for most people
who are listening to this show. But as I just
pointed out, this is a problem. As you've continually said,
that is an old problem, and we haven't done much
(17:21):
to fix it. So when we come back from the break,
we're going to talk about what laws and policies need
to change in order to fix this mess. So listen.
(17:42):
America has often beat its chest as the most exceptional
place on Earth, and you'll often hear talking points from
conservatives and Republicans that if it's so bad in America,
according to racial justice and social justice advocates, why do
immigrants keep coming? And I'm taken with the contradictions, to
(18:03):
be sure, but the truth is America has always exploited
immigrants for economic game. The trade off here is that
you can come to this country if you're willing to
do the lowest, most dangerous, and least paid kind of
work in this country. And so the narrative of a
nation of immigrants is the narrative of poor people coming
(18:23):
here in search of opportunity in search of their pot
of gold, only to find that they're doing the scut
work in this country. And it's also a country that's
had incredible xenophobia, a country that has had nativist political
movements that go back to the eighteen hundreds, you know,
shortly after the country was founded. So let's talk about
Congress and its failure to not pass new immigration laws.
(18:47):
I mean, what is the conversation among immigrant advocates about
solving that problem.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
I mean, I think you can't sort of dive into
the solution without understanding that immigration policy was enacted in
the sixties, right, you know, after the Second World War.
All our men were gone, so we were like, oh it,
no one's garden, no one's doing the agricultural stuff. We
need our stuff, So okay, I guess let's do the kids.
(19:15):
And also, oh wait, there's the Mexican people can come
and like harvest for us. And guess what they're asking
for way less money than what other people are asking for.
And so we sort of create this reliance and dependency
on seasonal workers.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
You know, they don't want to be here.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
I think that's sort of one thing that I try
to tell people, and it's like I wanted to be
in my country, and I wanted to be with my people,
with my flavor, with my things.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
I didn't have to.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
I didn't want to go through this entire transformation of
fitting in and the chameleon and sort of code switching
and language barriers.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
But it's forced.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Migration, right, like you're forced because that's your only option.
And so in this situation we create this dependency. But
the border is sort of fluid, right. People can come in,
they work, they leave. And then in the eighties we said,
you know enough we need We're not doing this. We're
going to create a three and ten nearbars And so
(20:10):
if you stay in this country with no documentation for
more than half a year, you are going to the
moment that you step out of the country, you're not
going to be allowed back in for three years. If
you stay for longer than one year, you can come
back for ten years. And so that caused a huge
problem for people because they were you know, they were
investing in their communities, making the money and building a
(20:32):
house at Ranchito, you know, and their count in their
country and in their place.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
And they had to choose.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
So a lot of separation happened there where you know,
moms and dads or dads came and they started working,
sending money back home. And so when that that created
a that changed the dynamic because there was no longer
this movement.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Across right, Carolina, just I want to understand this clearly
when you're describing the policy in the nineteen eighties, that
changed what came before it, and was what came before
is sustainable. If things had not changed in the nineteen eighties,
we had something that was more viable, more humane.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I don't know if it was necessarily viable, but I
do think that it was more human because the issue
you have now is amongst those twelve million undocumented people
in the US are people who entered through the river
we call them ewis entering without inspection.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
So they entered, they maybe never had.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
A passport, they stayed here, and then now they married
a US citizen. But because they entered without being inspected
in a passport, in a stamp, they can't adjust unless
they go back to their country and seek a waiver
of like a pardon. If they say you're not allowed in,
you're not allowed in. And so you have all of
these people that are married to US citizens with US
(21:53):
citizen children that are in limbo that can't you know,
are paying their taxes because like immigrants pay billions of
dollars in taxes, there's literally no way for them to
make a line and become legal, Like there's no line,
there's no viable visas, no viable route for them to
come into the country.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
So it's a failure. It's a huge failure.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
And unfortunately it's what is a political pawn for every election.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
You know, they start talking.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
About caravans, they start talking about their invading our country,
and so it's and in reality they are keeping our
economy going because the avocado that you and I get
in the supermarket that we paid two bucks for actually
costs eight dollars. If you're going to humanize and pay
labor workers what they deserve, yeah, nobody wants that.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Well, you know, you know it is so both rich
and complicated about this conversation is how much the problem
that you describe been talking about this change in the
nineteen eighties. You know, what happened before that was really
trusting the agency of people whose own self interest was
(23:05):
still back home, which is to say they came to
work to to remit payments back to their families to
build what they needed back home, and of course occasionally
those people made lives for themselves here. Of course, some
of those people married and had children, which is of
course why for over twenty years Republicans have talked about
repealing birthright citizenship in the fourteenth Amendment, which is just fascinating, right.
(23:28):
I mean, it's literally undercut one of the core pillars
of our constitution, which grows out of the end of slavery,
but represents kind of this commitment to people who are
born in this country. But here's the thing. This is
the thing, Carolina that I always teach my students on
this subject, and that is that if immigrants came here
and shut up and did their jobs and went home
(23:49):
when they were told, if they were subjected to all
of the workplace violations that happened and meet meat packing plants,
if they were subjected to abuse picking oranges in Florida
or harvesting sugarcane in Louisiana and Texas and they never
complained about it, then everybody who is in control of
these policies would be fucking happy. But guess what, when
(24:13):
people demand to be seen, when they demand their dignity
when they demand respect. That's the problem. That's where those
laws came from in the nineteen eighties because immigrant people
had it to marry it and say, you don't have
a right to treat me this way, and they started
to organize, and so these laws have become more punitive
because people who were giving backbreaking labor to this country
(24:33):
demanded to be treated like human beings.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes, so Carolina, you're you know what Khalilsid is really
powerful and you maybe are starting to answer this a
little bit yourself and what you said, But what what
would a more humane and even sensible immigration policy look like? Like?
What do we want?
Speaker 5 (24:55):
I mean, I think we want to allow people that
have been here, you know, those twelve million documented people
that have been living here for years, to actually live
without having to worry about every siren that they hear
and and living sort of in constant anxiety and fear.
I think that, you know, we could create new systems
(25:17):
and new visas and new alternatives to living where you know,
people want to live in their country of origin.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
The problem is American politics also.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Have completely intervened in government elections and brought weapons down
south and done so much sort of intervening that people
don't want to go back to their countries because they
might not be safe. But for me, it's like we
can invite people and welcome people with dignity.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
I think, you know, when you have violent.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
Crimes against women specifically, I feel like for asylum law,
women should be given the ability to seek asylum just
because they're women. You know, the macho, the machismo and
femicide is so prevalent that I would you know, I'd
love for that to be included in an asylum to reckon.
(26:09):
But I think we could create welcoming centers and a
lot more visas that are specific. You know, I was
working in Brooklyn and we were talking about a potential
program in the border in order to develop and invest
in border cities. And the idea was people that didn't
quite qualify for DHAKA would be given two or three
(26:30):
year contracts where.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
They could work in border towns and.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Teach sort of whatever it is that their gift was,
and they would have a salary, they would have dental,
they would have everything sort of promise to them so
that the anxiety of being in limbo could be sort
of forgotten and they could go back to breathing, you know,
they could just breathe lightly for a minute, and that
all got destroyed with the Trump administration. Women's Refugee Commission
(26:57):
did a project and they actually found out that if
we had a caseworker at the border working with people
in their cases and seeing how viable migration and success
would be in this country, they had ninety nine percent
of success as far as people showing up to court.
And so there's been some studies and other alternatives to
(27:17):
asylum and migration that have been proposed that are successful.
Perhaps it's like temporary visas. Maybe we prioritize families and
people that have connections to this, you know, the ground,
the soil here.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
There is a proposal in Congress now, I don't know
how much traction it has. It's called the Dignity Act.
I don't know if you followed this. And it's bipartisan
in the sense that it has both Republican and Democratic
sponsors from border states, and it has a little bit
of everything. You could see a kind of compromise bill
like that. There is a lot of money for building
the wall, you know, like more border security. There's also
(27:52):
a pathway for Dreamers to get full citizenship, and sort
of maybe the heart of it is that there are
these programs for you know, all eligible undocumented immigrants to
stay here permanently, you know, if they follow a bunch
of rules and over a bunch of years, have you
(28:14):
followed that? And does that seem like a possible solution
or does it seem like the kind of proposals that
always get put up by by just one or two
or a handful of lawmakers.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
So I'll answer it this way. So, right before Trump
took office, I worked for Mom's Rising. They work for
economic equality for families around the US, and I did policy.
I was basically did policy for immigration matters for this nonprofit,
and I realized that nothing was going to change if
(28:48):
the Dream Act did not pass in twenty ten, if
the Dream Act did not pass during Obama.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Like, the Dream Act is not going to pass.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
I think we have some advocates in Congress that are
that are strong and that are advocating for many years in.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Order to change legislation.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
But I don't really follow too many of those legislations
because I'm actually busy trying to find ways to not
gain the system, but to make sure that people have
an opportunity the people that are coming here, the people
that are already here, so that they have an opportunity
to actually establish themselves legally here and to fight back
(29:26):
and demand higher salaries, demand you know, call the cops
if they're being abused, Demand that their kids have the
proper access to education or to resources, you know, health
and services resources. So I don't I mean, I keep
tabs on some of it, but it's just a game,
and the border is the same as it was twenty
(29:48):
years ago. So I prefer to give tools to my
people because I do believe making sure that these new
immigrant citizens feel like they belong here, feel like they
can really be who they are. They're the ones that
are going to end up in Congress one day, and
they're the ones that are really going to change the law.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yes, yes, Carolina, we're going to take a short break
and we come. We want to hear more about the
work you actually are doing and that you're excited about
these creative responses that you're describing.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Welcome back to some of my best friends are Carolina.
You've done a really masterful job helping to explain really
really complicated public policy. I mean the kind of stuff
that most people simply don't really understand.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
There's one like me.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
There's one big There's one big takeaway that you just
left us on before the break, which is that Congress
isn't going to fix this anytime soon. Meaningful legislation in
Congress is a tall order these days. But that being said,
I really want to lean into the bread and butter,
(31:08):
the heart and soul of what you do. I've heard
you talk about, I've seen your work. You know, as
an artist first before you became an advocate, you turned
to the imagination. You turn to the ability to help
people to tell stories, to see themselves. And I'm going
(31:28):
to quote you here in this Ted talk you gave.
You said, art is the embodiment of that better future
you can imagine for yourself. So let's talk about you
as the visual artist turned advocate and blending all of
those skills and to legal representation, human rights, creative interventions.
You are an award winning artist. You've been telling your
(31:51):
story of being from Bogata, Colombia, where civil war ravaged
the country. What is this art practice that you engage
in as you do your immigrant advocacy work.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
So, like I said, it's it's very somatic at the beginning.
It's very somatic andocus in teaching immigrants their rights and
also creating spaces where people from different communities can come together,
so citizens non citizens can come together and sort of
really see each other as humans. I have all sorts
(32:24):
of different workshops, but let me tell you about the
salsa making Fourth Amendment workshop for delivery.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
That sounds yummy already. I'm like, you know, I want sauce,
I want to know my rights.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Yes, I mean so, I do these workshops mostly at companies,
say Spotify or other bigger corporations, And I bring fifteen
delivery workers and fifteen workers from Spotify. I sit them
down and then we cut tomatoes. We talk about the tomatoes,
about the onions.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Is the sauce and chips just a social way to
spend time together and break bread, so to speak? Or
is it actually a teaching tool? Do you talk about
you know, the experience of the delivery workers or where
the food is sourced?
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Absolutely, I mean a lot of the food we will grow,
like in Bruckner Garden in the Bronx, where where it
gives us an end to talk about how one in
three kids have asthma in the bronx and one in
four kids once they reach the age of eighteen will
end up in the car sool system. At some point
we talk about Fourth Amendment, stop and frisk, We start
(33:30):
talking about just all the rights that you have and
for allies to understand that.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
YO, if you're in.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
The subway and you see someone being stopped and it's
a person of color, like stop, make eye contact, turn
on the app that I have them download so that
they can videotape everything and make sure that you in
that moment, can become part of a community and you
can make sure that this person will be safe.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
We give cards that say, hello.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
Officer, I'm exercising my right to remain in silence. I
will not say a word until I speak with my lawyer.
I know I have a right to a call. And
then keep it with you so that if you are
stopped any time, you know that you can cover yourself
and protect yourself with this card.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
This is simultaneously you're both educating the immigrant communities and
other people about immigrant communities and how to be part
of that's that's going on simultaneously.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
That's happening on simultaneously because it's humanizing the other.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Right.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Delivery workers are the most invisible people in the world.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
I mean, like they give you your food.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
You don't even know if they have black hair, if
they talk to you short, tall. You just got your food.
That's all you care about, and you don't realize the
hard work that it takes navigating the city, you know,
in the snow and the rain and the heat, and
so in sharing a chip, so it's in you know,
seeing that the person is you know, likes mountain dew
cherry or whatever it is that you're like, oh, somebody
(34:54):
else likes the And it's those interactions that when this
person thinks about an immigrant, he's going to think about
Josse that took that class with you, and he's not
going to think about the dude he read about or
the numbers he read about on the news. So everything
is very I approached my artwork in a very lawyer way,
(35:15):
and I approached my law work in a very artistic way.
So yeah, it's you know, a really cool project that
we did two years ago during the pandemic was we
did the ice Cream Truck of Rights, where we created
twenty four flavors of rights, like edgymanshipcation justice, and we
created cards with QR codes that led directly to the resources.
(35:39):
And the eleven languages in New York City has sanctioned
as languages to the city. It's really fun because it's
you know, we go into communities. We visited the hardest
COVID hit neighborhoods, the Five Boroughs, and we made sure
that community had you know, we focused on housing rights,
environmental rights, and immigration rights.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Those were the three that we focused and we had house.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
One of your flavors I have here is stop rum
raising the rent.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Yeah, stop raising the rent. So it's all of these
different flavors so that people could remember, could have like
a point of reference in order to remember in their
bodies what that right felt like and how they could
speak up for themselves and tap into their power.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Carolina, as you're as you're describing this work, you will
sound and you are so hopeful, and before as you're
talking about national policy, you sound a little hopeless. And
maybe maybe it's just about controlling the things you can
control and the spaces where you can can do something.
You can do something, And I wonder, you know, what
(36:43):
does that mean in terms of advice? You might have
for our listeners, people who are listening to this, like
in their local communities, you know, how can they pursue
justice and equity and tap into these issues in a
creative and meaningful way.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Absolutely, Ben, And you're right. I mean I am so
much more animated by this type of work because it's
the estuary, right, it's sort of the mix of both worlds,
and it's not like the policy in the hill. And
I think that you know, as humans, we think there's
like an aha moment in our lives, or we think
that climate change is going to be a ball blowing
up and killing all of us, and the cockroaches are
going to invade, and it's actually like very small, gradual
(37:23):
habit changes that need to occur.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
And for me, it's our community.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And so you say our community whatever your local community
is exactly.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
Yeah, it's working with your local community. It is in
those smaller steps. It is in realizing I can donate
these shoes to a family in the border and a
person that has crossed for three months barefoot or in
sandals is going to be comfortable, and that makes a
huge difference to that one person. I think we want
to create this like huge change, and like as kids,
(37:55):
you know, and as hopeful youth where like We're going
to change policy and I'm going to be in the
Supreme Court. And in reality, it's those connections that you
make in the every day, right, It's tapping into your community.
What can I do in this community in order or
to shift narratives the very same way that we do
with the workshops. You know, the clay workshops happen in Brooklyn,
and we bring different communities like stay at home moms
(38:19):
that are you know, doing pottery, and we bring the
immigrant communities, and then in the humanity in working next
to each other, they realize, man, I'm not paying them
necessarily for holidays. I should really pay for that. And
so it's in those smaller actions that true change happens.
So for the listeners, it's like, don't be hopeful and
(38:41):
actually reach out to whatever you're passionate about. If immigration
is not your passion then like, don't don't do that
because you're going to need a lot of momentum. If
it is racial equality, if it is you know, at
the environment, like tap into those communities and really get to.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Connect with human beings and others.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
And Carolyne I just want to say, not just thank you,
but you know you're you're inspiring. Thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah, and I just want to add you know, I've
spent a lot of time with you, but I learned
more about what you actually do today, and in particular,
I always thought that you were so focused on immigrant
rights and advocacy, but what you're really talking about is
changing this country and the world for the better no
(39:26):
matter who you are. When you're talking about know your rights,
it's not just immigration policy. It's about your right to
a living wage, to a decent home, to dignity, and man,
that is really inspiring. So I'm going to leave our
listeners with a quote from you, because I think this
is the perfect like wrap up to what you've described
about your work. You've said for me, if you don't
(39:49):
feel like you have a place at the table, you
don't just build a new table, you build a new house.
All right, Carolina, you are one badass woman. So you
keep on doing what you've been doing. And we're really
grateful to have you on the show.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
What a pleasure to be able to talk about what
I love with you.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Thank you so much. Thank you right, all right, Khalil.
It was amazing talking to Carolina, and she made me
think about what I said at the start of the
show about Chicago and all that's going on here with refugees,
(40:31):
and I talked about a backlash, but I have to
reevaluate that and accentuate the positive, because man, we have
also been a welcoming city. People have stepped up, black churches, neighbors,
community groups. You know, my father rode his bike over
(40:52):
to a soccer game the other day where the refugees
where they're living, They like do this every weekend. Okay,
there was a funeral that was held for somebody who
was in one of the shelters. And yeah, and I think,
you know, one of the things that this political stunt
from Texas has proven is that, you know, we can
do better. And I'm also I'm also proud of the
(41:13):
city because because this is important to welcome people.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
And I think that hearing from Carolina and having her
peel back the layers of all the ways that people
like herself who advocate on behalf of immigrants, who are
inspiring other people in communities small and large near the
border away from the border is exactly the antidote to
(41:40):
the politics of.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Fear and.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Danger and scarcity, like the notion that we don't have enough,
particularly since we are a country as wealthy as we are,
and part of our wealth comes from foreign policies that
take from other countries like Latin America, take their people,
take their resources. We actually have an obligation to not
only figure this out for the long term, but we
(42:08):
have an obligation the sh your term to do something
to help people. And I'm really proud of Carolina, and
I'm proud of your pops for helping out too.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
One small thing I'm gonna do when this episode comes out,
I'm donating to the Chicago Refugee Coalition and I'm going
to do a fundraiser so all the listeners look out
for it and and give generously.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
All Right, You're going to spam them with a Kickstarter
and go fund me solicitations.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
It's going to work out, all right, man. I'm proud
of you. You are stepping up.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I love you, man, I love you too.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me
Khalil Jbron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang.
It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keyshel Williams.
Our engineer is a Man Wang and our managing producer
is Constanza Guyardo.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
At Pushkin thanks to Leital Mollad, Julia Barton, Heather Fain,
Carly Migliori, John Schnarz, Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the
brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely
want to check out his music at his website Averyaryong
dot com.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin
pods and you can sign up for our newsletter at
pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
And if you like our show, please give us a
five star rating and a review and listen even if
you don't like it, give it a five star rating
and a review, and please tell all of your best
friends about it. Thank you.
Speaker 5 (44:10):
All.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Concerts maser s
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