April 4, 2023 • 46 mins
Fighting champion Francis Ngannou defied all the odds to chase his dream of becoming a professional boxer. Surviving a 14-month migration from Africa to Europe, Francis bet it all, to eventually become the Heavyweight Champion of the UFC. In this episode, Francis tells the epic story of his journey from the sand mines of Cameroon to the heights of mixed martial arts.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. There's a song I've turned to for years whenever
I'm feeling counted out. It's called Against All Odds by
the late great Tupac Shakur. And it's that song that
kept coming to mind when I was speaking with UFC
heavyweight Champ Francis and Ghani. And Ghanu literally fought his
(00:36):
way up from a village in rural Cameroon against all
possible odds to become one of the greatest competitors of
all time in mixed martial arts. And Ghanu's story is
one that's gonna stick with you for a while, even
if you're not a fight fan. I mean to be honest,
I betterly know the first thing about MMA, but continue
to be riveted by and Ghanu's determination and spirit. And
(00:58):
I'm excited to see what he does next. This is
started from the bottom, hard earned success stories from people
like us. Growing up, my favorite things was like action movie, combat, sport.
What were the movies like? What did you love? Every
(01:18):
kind of like action movie like Ramble dam the blood
spoil sports, Oh man, that was fantastic. Hell I remember
like watching um I think it was a blood spoil
one A Vandam and tempo the movie that he kicked
the tree with his kick. So after that, I went
(01:41):
to the farm and then was kicking, just kicking banana
until the third down and then yes, I kicking banana
and then my hands. When she came back, she woke
my ass because like there was a banana that we're
supposed to eat, you could eat it. Yeah, yeah, you're
ruining the bananas. Man. I was so much into like action,
(02:02):
I need some action. So I went there kicked the
hell out of those bananas, the banana trees. But had
you not break? Was it the read like the trunk
you were kicking. Yeah, but it's pretty soft though he
has nothing to do with a tree, now, benana trunk
is very is very soft. It can't hurt, but it
can't break your food. Did you feel a sense of
(02:23):
opportunity growing up, like did you feel like you could
become something? I always felt like that. I always knew.
I mean, even though there was an opportunity at all
around me. But I do have a dream. I had
a dream, and I think that was the biggest thing
that I could have have in that position, you know,
(02:44):
like see it like this. I grew up in the
place that when we wake up, our biggest dream of
the day is to eat something before go to sleep
in the night, that was our biggest dream of the day,
the mission of the day. So like I couldn't even
go to school sometime because we were kicked out in
(03:06):
the class due of maybe a pen or a notebook
that we didn't have, or a scholar fee something like that.
And that's even the reason why I started to work
in the sand quarry, like when I was nine years old.
So when you're in that type of situation and then
you have this dream to become a work class boxer,
(03:28):
what the hell is that? Like you should just focus
be a farmer as your dad or your grandpa, or
be a builder, a mechanic or stuff like that, or capender.
And now I'm like, yeah, as much as it sounds cool,
that's not what I want, you know, Like I just
(03:50):
want to do this. And in my entire life, I've
been fighting my family with my dream. People want to
kill my dream and tell me how impossible is it?
How I cannot make it? Couldn't just give up on it?
When did your dream of becoming a boxer star? Honestly,
like when I was kid, I love everything related to
(04:13):
combat action. He could be a movie, a combat sport,
a boxing matchic karate, as long as he say action.
I loved it. But he was a one day. I
was thirteen years old. I still remember that day like
he was yesterday, even though he's been twenty three years.
(04:35):
I get kicked out of the classroom someday, and that
was like the time that you kind of like enough
is enough. I was having enough to be embarrassed in
the front of the class of other kids that would
look at me like the guy that the guy that
doesn't deserve to be there, to be among them because
(04:56):
he has nothing. And that day they kicked me out
of the classroom, and I was so upset about it, Like, men,
what do I do to deserve this situation? What do
I have less than other kids? Like, what is the
difference between us? The difference is just that they are
(05:17):
lucky enough to have the parents that can provide for them,
unlike me. So that doesn't mean they deserve it better
than I do. Matter of fact, I work hard to
get all those stuff. I walk under the sun, the rain,
in the weekend, in the holy days to have the
minimum that I have, even though it's not enough, so
(05:38):
at least I have a value of that, you know.
So that was the turning point of my life. Then
combined with the fact that my dad was fighting in
the strait and kind of like have a reputation of
the guy that fight everywhere, and I always like being
a shame of not of him, but of what he
(06:01):
was doing, and then promising myself not to become like him.
Your dad, Yeah, but you didn't want to fight. Yeah,
I didn't want to fight. But I don't want to
fight in the street. I don't want to fight at
school anymore because when I fight somewhere, they're just gonna say, like,
they're gonna relate me to my dad, like yes, just
like his dad, And I feel so bad about it.
(06:23):
So I was contain my desire to fight until like
when I was thirteen, the day that I was telling
you earlier, that was the day that I figured out
that boxing could be the thing that would combine everything.
He will not only put me in the stage in
front of other kids and prove them that I'm nothing
(06:44):
less to them, I'm even better and I could be
the number one. Are gonna be practicing doing what I
love and in the good way, you know, I'm gonna
get appreciated of fighting, unlike my dad would get blamed
from fighting and also get paid. That was like a bonus,
(07:05):
a serious on the cake, you know, everything together. I'm like,
this is cool, you know. From there on, like that
was my goal to become a boxer. But problem, I'm
thirteen years old. I'm in this little village that has
nothing around. I never see a gym with my eyes,
and there's not a gym in fifteen miles radios. So
(07:29):
how do I find a boxing gym? I don't know
how do a boxing gym? Looks like the only thing
that I know about it was what I was watching
in the movie on TV. But I've never been until
like I think I was twenty two. Then I'm like, okay,
it's been so long, Like at some point I have
(07:51):
to stop dreaming and really take action in order to
accomplish the dream. So nine years, nine years, that dream
does not go away. Oh he kept growing, he kept growing.
Like before I left the village at twenty two years
or I wasn't doing anything, Like I felt like everything
that I was doing was worthless. You know, what were
(08:15):
you doing? How are you? How are you surviving, sustaining yourself.
I was still working in the sand quarry. I was
a professional at that time. So what did that entail?
What are you working at the sand quarry? Like, what
did that entail? Dick, dig the sun from the mountain.
Dig the mountain and then the water will carry the
sun down, and then we're going to shovel from the
(08:37):
water to put it outside and then shovel in the
truck and they will use it for construction, you know.
So that's what I was doing. I was also doing
like a like a taxi with a motorcycle, as I
don't know if you you have seen it in Africa.
We get this those small motorcycle and we will do
(09:00):
taxi with it. We can carry two or three people
on it, yes, sometimes sitting on the gas tank in
the front and you have like three people behind or
two people with the with the back. And I was
doing those stuff. Working at sand quarry does not sound fun.
(09:20):
Sounds like tough, really hard work, you know, And a
lot of people's dreams would die under conditions like that.
Don't work like that that they just that they don't
like that, they don't want to be doing. It's so
far from what your dream was. A lot of people
wouldn't the dream, wouldn't survive that, but you you also
(09:41):
have to be you also have to be grateful about
it because like at least it was something. It was
something that we had to survive. It wasn't easy obviously,
basically like starting from nine years old, but grown man's work. Though,
it's a grown man's work. And that's why like my
brother and I we were the only kids in that
(10:01):
sand quarry at first, but lucky I was a little
bigger than nine years old kids and they're stronger, so
and we didn't have any opportunity, any choice. So and
the reason why my dream didn't die. Even though I
was grateful about that job, Like I was looking at
(10:22):
people there, maybe some people that have been in that environment,
those type of job for twenty years, and I couldn't
see myself there for twenty years. I'm like, Okay, what's
gonna happen when I turned fifty when I won't be
strong enough to keep shoveling sand or to dig the mountain?
Like I can't do this my entire life, And what
(10:42):
would be the heritage that I will live to my family?
For your kids? Yeah, yeah, to my kids, like this
can be it, you know, I can just take it
and sit here. I have to do something. Not sure
what I was going to do was going to work,
but one thing that I was always sure is that
(11:04):
I'm going to do it. I'm going to try and
that was my drive. So tell me about the moves
you make then to get out of Cameroon and fulfill
your dream of becoming a fighter professional boxer. Oh Man.
(11:25):
At twenty two, I went to the city and then
I started boxing, and he became very clear that in
order to pursue that dream, I have to leave Cameron
because once again there wasn't enough opportunity there to be
on the big stage. I want to leave Cameron. By
the way, that's not like young. I mean, that's kind
(11:47):
of old to be starting a boxing career, right yeah, yeah,
And that's what everybody says, like he's old. You're old.
You can't do it. It's not possible. This I mean
I left Cameron. I was twenty twenty six. Yeah, after
being in the city for four years. I left Cameroon.
I was twenty six. And not only I was twenty six,
(12:08):
I didn't even know where I was going. I have
to migrate, move country to country, city after city like
a baby step go over all the against all the
immigration law and at different borders, take me to that journey. Man,
that's it's a wild story. Yeah. So, like I left Cameroon,
(12:29):
next country in Nigeria, and then Niger, then Algeria, then
Morocco and then from Morocco, we're trying to get to
Spain like by a inflatable boat or whatever we can do.
And it took me like one years. From Morocco. I
(12:50):
spent like one years in Morocco. The entire June to
get in France was like fourteen months. But I'm happy
I finally made it because a lot of people don't
make it, so I made. People don't make it. People
get sent back, people people get back, people die, people die,
(13:11):
people get killed. A lot of things happen, man, Like
it's unbelievable. Like when you're in that world, it's insane
what you can see, what's possible. Like your life was zero,
Like not only nobody cares about your life, even you.
You don't care about your life anymore at some point
(13:33):
because like you kind of like in the position that
you feel like you have nothing to lose, Yeah, and
then you do some stupid shit like insane, like what man,
those the reass that we took, like we would take
the inflatable boat those board that you use for the
(13:55):
swimming pool to put in in the ocean to patron
to go to Europe. I mean it's like five the minimum.
The closest will be like five miles. But you can't
imagine the wave. The wave in the on the beach
is insane. And we have to like hide from police,
from the security, from the from the how they say,
(14:21):
the immigration patrol and yeah, the immigration patrol, all those stuff,
and then he always have to be at night and
blind you can see every anything. We would like try
and to get there inflate our boat. And how many
people on one of those little pool raps I depend
(14:43):
It could be up to twelve people, it depends. It's crazy,
Like would a float even I mean he's floated, but yeah,
I mean sometimes he could. He gets stopped in the
(15:06):
middle of the ocean. And that's it. When you can
start what happens. Guess when you stop in the middle
of the ocean, then what happened? It's done. You're done.
It's over, man, it's just over. Yeah, what do you
(15:27):
what do you like? I guess when that kind of
thing happens, do you have the thought that maybe I
just go back to Cameroon or do you immediately have
I got to try again? You always think about like
going back, but for what. What you don't know when
(15:47):
you leave your country is that it's get harder and harder.
And then when you get to some when you start,
you I'm like, oh, this is hard, and then you
feel like you're some sort of like badass and I'm like, oh,
I'm doing it, you know. And then it's keep getting
harder and harder day after days, week after week, months,
(16:08):
and then you kind of like get exhausted, like physically, mentally, financially,
like you're exhausted, you know, and also like you kind
of like bet everything on yourself to get there. So
at that point, by the time that you really get exhausted,
(16:30):
you have lost everything, so nothing left behind to go
back for whatever was your safe that you had. You
have to spend it all in order to make another
step another step, and then you get blocked in the middle.
You can go back, there's nothing behind, so the only
option is like keep going after the break Francis gets
(16:57):
to a place where he's finally free to chase his
dream of becoming a boxer. Once you find the god,
explain what did you do? Oh, I get in the
(17:18):
chair because we get caught. We get caught in the ocean.
I mean not like cod We get rescued by the
Red Cross. But the thing, the Red Cross has an
obligation to call the Homeland Security and tell them that, okay,
we rescue some some people in the ocean, and we
have no idea of the illegal situation. So when they
(17:40):
bring us back on the court, they hang us to
the Homeland Security, to the border police that would now
take us to a police station, do all the questioning
and then bring us to chair. And did you figure
(18:00):
us over at that point back to back home? No,
at that point we know we knew everything about immigration.
You become an expert. Oh it's crazy how you what
you can learn from being in the position. Like you
can go to school for years and don't learn much,
(18:23):
but when you're living in it, it's crazy how much
you learn. We know all the immigration, all the countries
that are allowed to deport every step along the way.
We know what African country has a good relationship with
whush country. And then when we get there we are
just like, oh, we are from Malie. When when we
(18:45):
are in Algeria, everybody is from Malie because Malie and
Algeria has a good relationship. So everybody in Algeria is
from Mali. And you you better find yourself a Malian
a Malian passport, yea, even if from our leader from Ali.
Just look at some passport, looks at somebody who looks
like you, gives it to you, and then you give
(19:07):
the money. And then when you get to Morocco, you're
better off being a Senegalian than anything else because otherwise
they're gonna send you in the desert every time. And
then when they send you to the desert two three times,
you realize that you have to find your way to
be that Senegalles otherwise otherwise you're gonna keep going down
(19:31):
to the desert and that trip. That trip is not fun.
So you do what you have to do. You learn
what you have to learn. It's not by choice, you're
forced to. So yeah, when we get in a Spain,
we knew all those stuff and that was the first
place that we were like, I mean, as a Cameroonian.
(19:55):
You're very happy at that moment because like, we don't
have it a deportation law, so when you say you're
from Cameroon, they can't expect to depart you to Cameroon.
So Spain more, Spain can do it. No, they cannot
do it. Yeah, if you're detained for a couple of months. Yeah,
(20:16):
after we will be detained for two months days association
than that, come and bear for us kind of and
then the free us. You can stay there or you
can leave. But at that time they don't want to
stay in Spin. Some people stay in Spin. But I
(20:36):
didn't want to stay in Spin because I have I
was going somewhere. My best option would be like England.
But the problem with England, even though you're in Europe,
you still need another authorization to get there, so it's
(20:57):
pretty hard and then you have to go through the
same process. I'm like, man, I'm tired. I'm not doing
this anymore. I don't know how long it's gonna take,
maybe a week or a month or a year. And
I'm getting old. I was twenty seven, twenty seven months takeaway. Yeah,
So then I decided to go to Germany because at
(21:19):
the time. Heavyweight boxing was very big in Germany with
the clich Goo brother brothers and others, and I'm like,
I'm going to Germany. For some reason, I stopped getting
the bus that we stopped in Paris. Then I'm like, oh,
let's spend some few days in Paris. And that was it.
I was day in Paris. But I mean I felt
(21:44):
very comfortable just then in Paris that I just wanted
someplace with the opportunity to get where I wanted and
to do what I want, you know, and this is
not bad. Let's just settle here, focused on the goal,
on the dream. So once you once you're in Paris,
how do you get how do you get into the
(22:04):
UFC because your dreams to be a boxer? Yeah, Oh,
a lot of things happened in Paris. When I went
in Paris. The next day, I go out and look
for a gym. I found this gym named the Kajin
Kjein and I met a guy there named DJ Carmel
and he was giving the class that day because the
(22:25):
coach wasn't there. I explained everything to him and I'm like,
I just needed a place to train. I can't pay
and he said he's going to speak to the coach
on my behalf and see what he can do. So
after three days he gave me a call and say, yes,
it's good, you can come train. And that's where I
started training. What did he call you? Right? Where are
you staying? In the parking lot? We found a parking lot.
(22:53):
I was sleeping in the parking lot. It was pretty cool. Listen.
He wasn't about where I was staying. It wasn't about
the condition that I was living in. You know, by
that time, I have seen so worse, so like from
(23:13):
what I was doing, from what I've been through in Morocco,
Like being in the parking lot was like being in
the five style hotel though, like parking lot in Paris
and you can't. Yeah, And the most important thing like
the freedom, like the first time for so long that
I feel free, like relax, you know, and I'm like, finally,
(23:36):
this is what I ever wanted. Like you might look
at that like he's horrible, but I mean, so far
is one of the best moments of my life. The
moment that you come with hope. I'm like, this is
the opportunity that I've been wanted. Now I get it.
You know, so the ball is ont of it. Yeah,
(23:59):
and that's the first day. Yeah, I'm like, this is it.
I always seek for this opportunity. I have it. I mean,
it's not about where I'm sleeping now, but it's where
I'm going to be sleeping. So you that coach who
wasn't even the coach at the gym, he talks to
the guy that owner on your behalf and yeah, he
(24:20):
talked to the coach and then he called me. And
then when I come there, he was always around trying
to like help me, support me, give me close. I
mean by the way, Like he was the the one
that gave me my first apartment. Yeah, from the street.
I went to his apartment. He has some apartment that
(24:41):
he was putting in the rent and he gave me
these two months and then I found my way. And
he was the one that like gave me my He
brought me to the sneaker shop and like choose one
pair of sneaker, my first, my first sneaker in Paris.
(25:02):
Like he was around a lot, you know, he was
around a lot, helped me, being very supportive. What did
they think of your boxing scale? He was the one
telling me about MMA because like. He was also a
big guy. So in the gym, I was sparring with
him and he would tell me like how good my
(25:22):
boxing is and how much potential I have. But if
I transit into MMA, I'll be having the fastest income
regarding my situation, you know. And that was the first
time that I'm like that I've heard from MM. And
then I'm like, what is MMA? He hadn't explained me. Yeah,
(25:42):
I didn't know what was M me And this was
like what sometime by the end of the end of
June or early twenty twenty thirteen. Yeah, then keep pushing.
I'm like, no, bro, I don't want any of that.
I just want like, yeah, I like boxing, like sweet boxing,
(26:04):
those wrestling staff ground I place. Yeah, what convinced your family?
What convinced you? So the gym was close during the
holiday or during August, the entire amount of August, so
I was looking for some place to keep training. And
(26:25):
then I asked the manager of the association that I
want to go next door see if they have a
boxing class day because I want to keep training. We
have a good relationship. I can't talk on your behalf,
you know. Then I'm like yes, So he went there,
met a guy named the guy that was in the fronds,
(26:47):
I think it was a part or no named Frank,
very nice guy. He just came. I'm like, yes, we like,
we would like to have him and this and that,
and that's how he started because that was an MMA gym.
So I went there and keep doing boxing and come
to MMA class a lot of MMA because he was entertaining.
I was having fun training practice, but I didn't want
(27:12):
anything to do with MMA career and people. I'm like, yes,
USC these or if you do this, you're gonna be
in the vis or you're gonna become a weird UFCA
champion one day. I'm like, what do I care about
USA or being a UFC champion? At that moment, I
didn't care at all. Like I was so focused on
boxing that I don't want like anybody or anything to
(27:35):
deviate me from my dream. Yea, and dream was specific.
It was dream was very specific. But you know, things
kind of like putting meself alone, like one by one,
step by step, and like two years after even without
really like focusing on MMA, and then I have a
(27:56):
UFCA contract. That was the moment that I'm like, okay, well,
how you get the contract? When we come back from
our final break, Francis talks about how we got iss
UFC contract and going on to become the heavyweight champion
of the world. Hold on, well, how you get the contract?
(28:23):
Two years after after a shoot MMA fight, that's when
I have it. I was like six after six fights
in MMA, six fights? He didn't did you do those
thinking wanting the contract? Did you do those more just
for fun? No? First he was to stay active. Then
at some point I started getting paid a little bit.
(28:44):
I mean it was more than welcome those little check
what we're getting paid? What was like? What were the
checks at that time? Oh? My first check was a tournament.
I fought twice in the same night and get paid
two thousand year twice in the same night. Though, that's
why get paid two thousand year O. That was my
(29:05):
first check. Then after that I get fight for three
hundred eight hundred until like I fought in Bahrain for
six thousand. That was my biggest CHECKO. And that was
my second fight in the octagon in Bahrain, Barrain. Yeah.
(29:27):
Then right after that UFC. It was until then that
I realized that okay, this might be the opportunity, Like
what was my goal at first to become a world
champion in the combat spot? This is it. This might
not be a bosing. This is a combat spot, and
(29:48):
I can also become a world champion. You sound accountable.
I'm a big moment. That's a big moment. Yeah, I
mean I realized that this is the opportunity. But the
thing that I was more scaled, you know, it was
it was the two years that I wasn't really committed
to the spot then then I wasn't really like I
didn't really feel it, you know, no experience in the
(30:10):
combat sport. Like I remember even being in Orlando for
my first fight, I was asking myself, like, what is
the rules? What are the rules of this sport? I
really don't know. I'm like, man, I'm going to fight
in the world stage in the spot and I don't
even know the rules, you know, Like in my mind,
(30:31):
I was just like, WHOA, I hope this was a
boxing fight because I was so comfortable in boxing that
I wouldn't care if it was a boxing I wouldn't
have to think about stuff, but I wouldn't have to
think about the rules that allowed that I have to
think on a lot of things, and he was I
didn't have those massy memory yet, you know, like now
(30:53):
I would do stuff instantly even without thinking about it.
Back then, I had to think about everything that I
am doing, you know, like okay, what about this? What
about this? If this happened, how do I do this?
You know, like just when you start something, you think
too much about it. That was what happened? Was your
strategy maybe then to just try on that first fight,
(31:14):
to try to keep it just boxing, like we were like,
maybe I'll trug when it's only on box. I knew
that I was I was the guy wasn't going to
box me. Basically he was a wrestler. Oh, he was
a wrestler and jiujitsu guy. Like, so, how did that
fight go? How did that first fight go? Well? First
round we struggled some wrestling, I got took down once
(31:37):
and then defend like fourth takedown. I think he he
was clear that he didn't want anything to do with me, like, uh,
striking like he was just punching. No, he was just
shooting in my leg, shooting my leg, trying to trip
you take it down, yes, and then when he's there
he will stay there like forever. And then after like
(31:58):
four or five times, he get exhausted, you know, like
when you're trying to take somebody down over and over,
you get exhausted. So in the middle of the second
round get knocked out. You knocked him out, Yeah, and
knocked him out like badly. At that point, you're kind
of squarely, you're firmly in the world of UFC, and
(32:23):
you're kind of unstoppable, right. Well, that was the beginning.
That was just the beginning, because like I was staying
in Paris at that time. After that, then I keep
fighting and everything was going good, Like I won my
first six fight in the UFA, then get to the
to the title fight, then lost in the title that
(32:46):
would have my first loss in the title trying to
become the world champion essentially, how tell me about that fight? Well, um,
because now you get into the real dream to be
world champion in a combat sport, and this is the
fight that's going to determine it. Yeah, you know, there's
(33:06):
a difference between the dream and the reality. I have
all those dreams and then I was getting in the octagon,
getting all those easy fight knock people out in the
first first minute, get performance of the night every time,
So it was quite easy, and I didn't really understand
(33:26):
like the sport didn't have an experience. They didn't even
know how they train or how they get prepared for
that level of fight. So kind of like get everything
wrong on that tirefight, that first one, and so far
I think it's the best. Is the best experience that
(33:48):
I have in my career. Is the best fight in
my career the one I lost because like even though
I didn't the outcome wasn't what I wanted. But what
I have learned from that fight led me to become
the champion today. As I always I always say, like
if I didn't lost to stip It the first time,
(34:09):
I could have easily lost to step It a second time.
But I learned. I learned a lot from that fight
than any or the fight. Can you walk with you
the fight then and what you're learning as best to
remember it is, I remember everything, but it's very hard
to explain. First of all, like I was, I was
(34:30):
under this pressure, and the worst thing is that I
didn't even know that I was under the pressure until
I get in the fight and the way that I
was acting. Then I watched the tape after and then
I'm like, what the hell is this guy? It looks
like me, but it's not me, Like that's not how
I do. But yes, you're pretty calm in the ring, right,
(34:51):
like you're a calming In that fight, I wasn't calm
at all. I was going all over throwing, like I
went there to basically like with the intention to knock
him out, which is something that I've never done, even
though I have a lot of knockout he just I
just let it come on his own. But I never
(35:12):
like worked there to knock somebody out. And that was
the first time I think, like I thought I just
gonna walk walk him through and knock him out, and
it didn't work. And it was nerves, not confidence or both.
He was nerves, he was pressure, he was everything. And
to be honest, when I look at how I get
(35:33):
prepared into that fight, he wasn't a right way. I
have never fought three round five, so that was a
five round five. You know, I have to go through
five rounds. I literally, like really never get punched into
five before then then I have to get hit a
(35:55):
lot in that fight. And I was so exhausted that
at some point I'm like, Wow, I think this guy
is just not strong enough to finish me because I
have nothing less. Wow. So it's just like the first
time that I've heard you kind of admit to yourself
(36:16):
in your head that like maybe I don't have I
can't get it done. Maybe I can't get it done.
Oh no, I mean you can't fool everybody, but you
can't fool yourself. Yeah. I know exactly what happened in
that fight. I know that I couldn't move my body anymore.
At some point, I was just so exhausted. I couldn't
(36:36):
just like give up, but I was done. In the
aftermath of that, What was the feedback you were getting
from like just the UFC, the fighting community. Oh, you know,
it was like my downfall. I think people was expecting
too much from me that they get disappointed and a
(36:59):
lot of people get pissed off. And he was very hot.
Like I remember at some point I couldn't open even
my social media for like weeks because when I when
I opened it, I would just see some main command
or some main article or something, and I'm like, damn,
you know, get out of it. You know, I get
(37:21):
to the point that I'm like, I don't care what
these people said. Yeah, they don't do anything with their life.
They don't have a dream, then they have never done anything.
Their only day is like to hit on people. I
like them. I mean, I'm not doing bad. I fight
so hard to get here, and it doesn't matter what happened.
At least I have tried and I have done something,
(37:43):
and I have tried so hard. You know, I have
to make that immense with myself to be able to
move on. And therefore, I think I was stronger than
before because I understand that or the element that I
didn't know was like the opinion, the people opinion or
the media or whatever is it. You know, I just
(38:05):
learned how to focus on me and what I have
to do. If he works, good, if he doesn't, it's okay.
As long as I know that I give my best.
I'm good with that. Therefore, I don't give a shite
of what anybody think. If you're with me, good, If
you're not good luck yeah yeah yeah. So after that
(38:26):
little bit of not be able to open your social
media looking your wounds a little bit, at that point,
I'm sure, how do you bounce back where he gave
me mentally like I went to my next fight. Then
that where I realized that I haven't dealed with my
previous fight because I was in my next fight. I mean, honest,
(38:49):
I never show up in my next fight, you know,
because I was there to fighting, trying to correct the
mistake from the past fight. Like, oh, I should have
been more patient than I was too patient, over patient
because I blame myself too much from Russian I was
just like, okay, hold back like yourself become you have
(39:11):
all the time. And then like I didn't even believe
when the fight was over, like because I didn't really fight,
I was mentally not there. That's a beautiful way of
putting it, that you didn't even show up to that
I didn't show up. I was in the middle of
the last one. Yeah, I was in the middle of
the cage, was thinking of my last fight with my
(39:33):
opening in front of me, was thinking of my last fight.
I kind of like understand now why Because I was
so concerned about what people think. I didn't have any
confidence on me anymore, and I wasn't even doing it
for me. There was so much pressure on my shoulder
at the time that the spot that I started for
(39:56):
fun get to the point that he wasn't fun anymore.
Then after my second loss, that was the moment that
I'm like, okay, why am I year all? They started
because it was fun. I went to the gym the
first time and keep going in the MMA gym because
I was having fun. Am I having fun anymore? No?
(40:19):
I'm just thinking about what people are thinking of me,
what this guy's thinking of me? Why do I care?
And I tell myself, like, okay, if this is it,
let it end on my way, you know, have fun.
And that's how I walked to my next fight. I'm like, Okay,
if I lost, it's okay. As long as I have phone,
(40:42):
I go out there, don't care about losing, because like,
you care so much about losing that you don't fight anymore.
When you start care about losing, you don't fight. That's
what happened in my second loss, Like I was so
concerned about losing that I didn't fight because I didn't
(41:04):
want to lose. This is a difference between going and
anything with the idea of I don't want to fail,
and going into something the idea that I want to succeed,
Like you were going into there saying I don't want
to fail. The problem is that when you don't want
to fail, you're not taking a chance to succeed, right,
You're timid. Yeah, you have to take a chance to
(41:26):
fail in order to succeed. You know, we talked about
your your loss to steep A. You eventually got a
chance to challenge them and beat them and become a
world champion, and to defend that and win that defense.
Your contract in the UFC's up next month, December twenty
twenty two. And it's an interesting position. I'd say you
(41:48):
find yourself in from my advantage point, and you may disagree.
You're in a sport that you sort of fell into
a lucky way. Luckily you fell into MMA, but your
dream was in a way, to always be a boxer.
You're you're lucky to become a world champion. You put
in the work, you sort of fulfilled what you can
do in UFC. The pay disparity between what UFC fighters
(42:11):
make and what boxers stand to make is very different.
Do you feel yourself in a position where it's like
you're almost overqualified for the UFC. It's like you you've
done a lot. No, No, not overqualified. I think if
you say overqualified is misspoken. But there's more you can
do in a way, there's more you can earn, you're
(42:32):
earning potentials. Yeah, but no, the problem is not how
UFC fighter get paid over over boxers, you know, Like,
it's not about how much you're making, and it's not
mostly about the amount of the money. It's about what
is on the table, the part that you're getting, what
(42:53):
you're getting of the whole pie. Right, Yes, so what
you're getting of the whole pie. I mean, I don't
expect anybody to take money out of his pocket to
pay me, right, I'm just saying what we do together,
if he provide something, treat me fairly. I'm not here
(43:14):
to compare my salary into boxing or to world. Back
in the days on Fighter, the fighters was fighting for
less than what we're fighting today. Some of them was
paying fairly, And today I can be paying most and
think I'm not getting paid fairly because I just think
(43:36):
we're generating more than the sport. The job that we're
doing is generating more than he was. That's it. That's it.
So it's not like overqualified. You can be overqualified for
a sport. Do you feel like you have a decision
to make to reap with the UFC or try something else. Yeah,
(44:00):
I know what what I want to do. For sure.
I always see myself in the UFCA, you know, like
maybe thinking of at some point be the bridge between
the UFC and Africa. Take those opportunity back. Maybe the
ambassador kind of like represent the brand in Africa. So
(44:23):
this as a proof of my commitment to the company,
you know. Yeah. So now I still wish, I still
hope for that, but I think something are broken and
need to be fixed. I have a short time in
the combat spot and I want to maximize it and
(44:44):
then until the day that I don't feel like doing
it anymore, then I step away, I walk away and
do something else, whatever it's possible to do. I'm sure
we're going to do it down the road. Yeah yeah, yeah, man,
Francis and Down, thank you for taking the time. Man,
I you it's it's an incredible life story. You have
incredible insights, and yeah, it's just honored man, Thank you,
(45:07):
thank you for having me. Since my conversation with Francis
and Gon who he's let his UFC contract laps and
is eyeing a match with one of boxing's biggest names, Tyson, Fury,
and Ghan was ready to bet on himself again, this
time to achieve his childhood dream of becoming a world
class boxer. Betting on yourself, of course, isn't the easiest
(45:30):
thing to do. There's a lot of room for failure,
but as Francis is noting, there's also room for exponential growth.
Started from the Bottom is produced by David Jaw, edited
by Keishaw Williams, Engineered by Benaliday, Booked by Laura Morgan
with production help from Lea Rose. The show's executive produced
(45:51):
by Jacob Boldstein, who's not all up in the videos
for Pushkin Industries. Our theme music's by Benaliday and David
Jaw featuring Anthony Aggs and Stvannah Joe Lack. Listen to
Start It from the Bottom. Wherever you get your podcasts
and if you want ad free episodes available one week
early sign up for Pushkin Plus. Check out Pushkin dot
(46:11):
fm or the Apple show page for more information. If
you like your show, please remember to share, rate, and
review us on your podcast app. I'm justin Richmond,
Pushkin. There's a song I've turned to for years whenever
I'm feeling counted out. It's called Against All Odds by
the late great Tupac Shakur. And it's that song that
kept coming to mind when I was speaking with UFC
heavyweight Champ Francis and Ghani. And Ghanu literally fought his
(00:36):
way up from a village in rural Cameroon against all
possible odds to become one of the greatest competitors of
all time in mixed martial arts. And Ghanu's story is
one that's gonna stick with you for a while, even
if you're not a fight fan. I mean to be honest,
I betterly know the first thing about MMA, but continue
to be riveted by and Ghanu's determination and spirit. And
(00:58):
I'm excited to see what he does next. This is
started from the bottom, hard earned success stories from people
like us. Growing up, my favorite things was like action movie, combat, sport.
What were the movies like? What did you love? Every
(01:18):
kind of like action movie like Ramble dam the blood
spoil sports, Oh man, that was fantastic. Hell I remember
like watching um I think it was a blood spoil
one A Vandam and tempo the movie that he kicked
the tree with his kick. So after that, I went
(01:41):
to the farm and then was kicking, just kicking banana
until the third down and then yes, I kicking banana
and then my hands. When she came back, she woke
my ass because like there was a banana that we're
supposed to eat, you could eat it. Yeah, yeah, you're
ruining the bananas. Man. I was so much into like action,
(02:02):
I need some action. So I went there kicked the
hell out of those bananas, the banana trees. But had
you not break? Was it the read like the trunk
you were kicking. Yeah, but it's pretty soft though he
has nothing to do with a tree, now, benana trunk
is very is very soft. It can't hurt, but it
can't break your food. Did you feel a sense of
(02:23):
opportunity growing up, like did you feel like you could
become something? I always felt like that. I always knew.
I mean, even though there was an opportunity at all
around me. But I do have a dream. I had
a dream, and I think that was the biggest thing
that I could have have in that position, you know,
(02:44):
like see it like this. I grew up in the
place that when we wake up, our biggest dream of
the day is to eat something before go to sleep
in the night, that was our biggest dream of the day,
the mission of the day. So like I couldn't even
go to school sometime because we were kicked out in
(03:06):
the class due of maybe a pen or a notebook
that we didn't have, or a scholar fee something like that.
And that's even the reason why I started to work
in the sand quarry, like when I was nine years old.
So when you're in that type of situation and then
you have this dream to become a work class boxer,
(03:28):
what the hell is that? Like you should just focus
be a farmer as your dad or your grandpa, or
be a builder, a mechanic or stuff like that, or capender.
And now I'm like, yeah, as much as it sounds cool,
that's not what I want, you know, Like I just
(03:50):
want to do this. And in my entire life, I've
been fighting my family with my dream. People want to
kill my dream and tell me how impossible is it?
How I cannot make it? Couldn't just give up on it?
When did your dream of becoming a boxer star? Honestly,
like when I was kid, I love everything related to
(04:13):
combat action. He could be a movie, a combat sport,
a boxing matchic karate, as long as he say action.
I loved it. But he was a one day. I
was thirteen years old. I still remember that day like
he was yesterday, even though he's been twenty three years.
(04:35):
I get kicked out of the classroom someday, and that
was like the time that you kind of like enough
is enough. I was having enough to be embarrassed in
the front of the class of other kids that would
look at me like the guy that the guy that
doesn't deserve to be there, to be among them because
(04:56):
he has nothing. And that day they kicked me out
of the classroom, and I was so upset about it, Like, men,
what do I do to deserve this situation? What do
I have less than other kids? Like, what is the
difference between us? The difference is just that they are
(05:17):
lucky enough to have the parents that can provide for them,
unlike me. So that doesn't mean they deserve it better
than I do. Matter of fact, I work hard to
get all those stuff. I walk under the sun, the rain,
in the weekend, in the holy days to have the
minimum that I have, even though it's not enough, so
(05:38):
at least I have a value of that, you know.
So that was the turning point of my life. Then
combined with the fact that my dad was fighting in
the strait and kind of like have a reputation of
the guy that fight everywhere, and I always like being
a shame of not of him, but of what he
(06:01):
was doing, and then promising myself not to become like him.
Your dad, Yeah, but you didn't want to fight. Yeah,
I didn't want to fight. But I don't want to
fight in the street. I don't want to fight at
school anymore because when I fight somewhere, they're just gonna say, like,
they're gonna relate me to my dad, like yes, just
like his dad, And I feel so bad about it.
(06:23):
So I was contain my desire to fight until like
when I was thirteen, the day that I was telling
you earlier, that was the day that I figured out
that boxing could be the thing that would combine everything.
He will not only put me in the stage in
front of other kids and prove them that I'm nothing
(06:44):
less to them, I'm even better and I could be
the number one. Are gonna be practicing doing what I
love and in the good way, you know, I'm gonna
get appreciated of fighting, unlike my dad would get blamed
from fighting and also get paid. That was like a bonus,
(07:05):
a serious on the cake, you know, everything together. I'm like,
this is cool, you know. From there on, like that
was my goal to become a boxer. But problem, I'm
thirteen years old. I'm in this little village that has
nothing around. I never see a gym with my eyes,
and there's not a gym in fifteen miles radios. So
(07:29):
how do I find a boxing gym? I don't know
how do a boxing gym? Looks like the only thing
that I know about it was what I was watching
in the movie on TV. But I've never been until
like I think I was twenty two. Then I'm like, okay,
it's been so long, Like at some point I have
(07:51):
to stop dreaming and really take action in order to
accomplish the dream. So nine years, nine years, that dream
does not go away. Oh he kept growing, he kept growing.
Like before I left the village at twenty two years
or I wasn't doing anything, Like I felt like everything
that I was doing was worthless. You know, what were
(08:15):
you doing? How are you? How are you surviving, sustaining yourself.
I was still working in the sand quarry. I was
a professional at that time. So what did that entail?
What are you working at the sand quarry? Like, what
did that entail? Dick, dig the sun from the mountain.
Dig the mountain and then the water will carry the
sun down, and then we're going to shovel from the
(08:37):
water to put it outside and then shovel in the
truck and they will use it for construction, you know.
So that's what I was doing. I was also doing
like a like a taxi with a motorcycle, as I
don't know if you you have seen it in Africa.
We get this those small motorcycle and we will do
(09:00):
taxi with it. We can carry two or three people
on it, yes, sometimes sitting on the gas tank in
the front and you have like three people behind or
two people with the with the back. And I was
doing those stuff. Working at sand quarry does not sound fun.
(09:20):
Sounds like tough, really hard work, you know, And a
lot of people's dreams would die under conditions like that.
Don't work like that that they just that they don't
like that, they don't want to be doing. It's so
far from what your dream was. A lot of people
wouldn't the dream, wouldn't survive that, but you you also
(09:41):
have to be you also have to be grateful about
it because like at least it was something. It was
something that we had to survive. It wasn't easy obviously,
basically like starting from nine years old, but grown man's work. Though,
it's a grown man's work. And that's why like my
brother and I we were the only kids in that
(10:01):
sand quarry at first, but lucky I was a little
bigger than nine years old kids and they're stronger, so
and we didn't have any opportunity, any choice. So and
the reason why my dream didn't die. Even though I
was grateful about that job, Like I was looking at
(10:22):
people there, maybe some people that have been in that environment,
those type of job for twenty years, and I couldn't
see myself there for twenty years. I'm like, Okay, what's
gonna happen when I turned fifty when I won't be
strong enough to keep shoveling sand or to dig the mountain?
Like I can't do this my entire life, And what
(10:42):
would be the heritage that I will live to my family?
For your kids? Yeah, yeah, to my kids, like this
can be it, you know, I can just take it
and sit here. I have to do something. Not sure
what I was going to do was going to work,
but one thing that I was always sure is that
(11:04):
I'm going to do it. I'm going to try and
that was my drive. So tell me about the moves
you make then to get out of Cameroon and fulfill
your dream of becoming a fighter professional boxer. Oh Man.
(11:25):
At twenty two, I went to the city and then
I started boxing, and he became very clear that in
order to pursue that dream, I have to leave Cameron
because once again there wasn't enough opportunity there to be
on the big stage. I want to leave Cameron. By
the way, that's not like young. I mean, that's kind
(11:47):
of old to be starting a boxing career, right yeah, yeah,
And that's what everybody says, like he's old. You're old.
You can't do it. It's not possible. This I mean
I left Cameron. I was twenty twenty six. Yeah, after
being in the city for four years. I left Cameroon.
I was twenty six. And not only I was twenty six,
(12:08):
I didn't even know where I was going. I have
to migrate, move country to country, city after city like
a baby step go over all the against all the
immigration law and at different borders, take me to that journey. Man,
that's it's a wild story. Yeah. So, like I left Cameroon,
(12:29):
next country in Nigeria, and then Niger, then Algeria, then
Morocco and then from Morocco, we're trying to get to
Spain like by a inflatable boat or whatever we can do.
And it took me like one years. From Morocco. I
(12:50):
spent like one years in Morocco. The entire June to
get in France was like fourteen months. But I'm happy
I finally made it because a lot of people don't
make it, so I made. People don't make it. People
get sent back, people people get back, people die, people die,
(13:11):
people get killed. A lot of things happen, man, Like
it's unbelievable. Like when you're in that world, it's insane
what you can see, what's possible. Like your life was zero,
Like not only nobody cares about your life, even you.
You don't care about your life anymore at some point
(13:33):
because like you kind of like in the position that
you feel like you have nothing to lose, Yeah, and
then you do some stupid shit like insane, like what man,
those the reass that we took, like we would take
the inflatable boat those board that you use for the
(13:55):
swimming pool to put in in the ocean to patron
to go to Europe. I mean it's like five the minimum.
The closest will be like five miles. But you can't
imagine the wave. The wave in the on the beach
is insane. And we have to like hide from police,
from the security, from the from the how they say,
(14:21):
the immigration patrol and yeah, the immigration patrol, all those stuff,
and then he always have to be at night and
blind you can see every anything. We would like try
and to get there inflate our boat. And how many
people on one of those little pool raps I depend
(14:43):
It could be up to twelve people, it depends. It's crazy,
Like would a float even I mean he's floated, but yeah,
I mean sometimes he could. He gets stopped in the
(15:06):
middle of the ocean. And that's it. When you can
start what happens. Guess when you stop in the middle
of the ocean, then what happened? It's done. You're done.
It's over, man, it's just over. Yeah, what do you
(15:27):
what do you like? I guess when that kind of
thing happens, do you have the thought that maybe I
just go back to Cameroon or do you immediately have
I got to try again? You always think about like
going back, but for what. What you don't know when
(15:47):
you leave your country is that it's get harder and harder.
And then when you get to some when you start,
you I'm like, oh, this is hard, and then you
feel like you're some sort of like badass and I'm like, oh,
I'm doing it, you know. And then it's keep getting
harder and harder day after days, week after week, months,
(16:08):
and then you kind of like get exhausted, like physically, mentally, financially,
like you're exhausted, you know, and also like you kind
of like bet everything on yourself to get there. So
at that point, by the time that you really get exhausted,
(16:30):
you have lost everything, so nothing left behind to go
back for whatever was your safe that you had. You
have to spend it all in order to make another
step another step, and then you get blocked in the middle.
You can go back, there's nothing behind, so the only
option is like keep going after the break Francis gets
(16:57):
to a place where he's finally free to chase his
dream of becoming a boxer. Once you find the god,
explain what did you do? Oh, I get in the
(17:18):
chair because we get caught. We get caught in the ocean.
I mean not like cod We get rescued by the
Red Cross. But the thing, the Red Cross has an
obligation to call the Homeland Security and tell them that, okay,
we rescue some some people in the ocean, and we
have no idea of the illegal situation. So when they
(17:40):
bring us back on the court, they hang us to
the Homeland Security, to the border police that would now
take us to a police station, do all the questioning
and then bring us to chair. And did you figure
(18:00):
us over at that point back to back home? No,
at that point we know we knew everything about immigration.
You become an expert. Oh it's crazy how you what
you can learn from being in the position. Like you
can go to school for years and don't learn much,
(18:23):
but when you're living in it, it's crazy how much
you learn. We know all the immigration, all the countries
that are allowed to deport every step along the way.
We know what African country has a good relationship with
whush country. And then when we get there we are
just like, oh, we are from Malie. When when we
(18:45):
are in Algeria, everybody is from Malie because Malie and
Algeria has a good relationship. So everybody in Algeria is
from Mali. And you you better find yourself a Malian
a Malian passport, yea, even if from our leader from Ali.
Just look at some passport, looks at somebody who looks
like you, gives it to you, and then you give
(19:07):
the money. And then when you get to Morocco, you're
better off being a Senegalian than anything else because otherwise
they're gonna send you in the desert every time. And
then when they send you to the desert two three times,
you realize that you have to find your way to
be that Senegalles otherwise otherwise you're gonna keep going down
(19:31):
to the desert and that trip. That trip is not fun.
So you do what you have to do. You learn
what you have to learn. It's not by choice, you're
forced to. So yeah, when we get in a Spain,
we knew all those stuff and that was the first
place that we were like, I mean, as a Cameroonian.
(19:55):
You're very happy at that moment because like, we don't
have it a deportation law, so when you say you're
from Cameroon, they can't expect to depart you to Cameroon.
So Spain more, Spain can do it. No, they cannot
do it. Yeah, if you're detained for a couple of months. Yeah,
(20:16):
after we will be detained for two months days association
than that, come and bear for us kind of and
then the free us. You can stay there or you
can leave. But at that time they don't want to
stay in Spin. Some people stay in Spin. But I
(20:36):
didn't want to stay in Spin because I have I
was going somewhere. My best option would be like England.
But the problem with England, even though you're in Europe,
you still need another authorization to get there, so it's
(20:57):
pretty hard and then you have to go through the
same process. I'm like, man, I'm tired. I'm not doing
this anymore. I don't know how long it's gonna take,
maybe a week or a month or a year. And
I'm getting old. I was twenty seven, twenty seven months takeaway. Yeah,
So then I decided to go to Germany because at
(21:19):
the time. Heavyweight boxing was very big in Germany with
the clich Goo brother brothers and others, and I'm like,
I'm going to Germany. For some reason, I stopped getting
the bus that we stopped in Paris. Then I'm like, oh,
let's spend some few days in Paris. And that was it.
I was day in Paris. But I mean I felt
(21:44):
very comfortable just then in Paris that I just wanted
someplace with the opportunity to get where I wanted and
to do what I want, you know, and this is
not bad. Let's just settle here, focused on the goal,
on the dream. So once you once you're in Paris,
how do you get how do you get into the
(22:04):
UFC because your dreams to be a boxer? Yeah, Oh,
a lot of things happened in Paris. When I went
in Paris. The next day, I go out and look
for a gym. I found this gym named the Kajin
Kjein and I met a guy there named DJ Carmel
and he was giving the class that day because the
(22:25):
coach wasn't there. I explained everything to him and I'm like,
I just needed a place to train. I can't pay
and he said he's going to speak to the coach
on my behalf and see what he can do. So
after three days he gave me a call and say, yes,
it's good, you can come train. And that's where I
started training. What did he call you? Right? Where are
you staying? In the parking lot? We found a parking lot.
(22:53):
I was sleeping in the parking lot. It was pretty cool. Listen.
He wasn't about where I was staying. It wasn't about
the condition that I was living in. You know, by
that time, I have seen so worse, so like from
(23:13):
what I was doing, from what I've been through in Morocco,
Like being in the parking lot was like being in
the five style hotel though, like parking lot in Paris
and you can't. Yeah, And the most important thing like
the freedom, like the first time for so long that
I feel free, like relax, you know, and I'm like, finally,
(23:36):
this is what I ever wanted. Like you might look
at that like he's horrible, but I mean, so far
is one of the best moments of my life. The
moment that you come with hope. I'm like, this is
the opportunity that I've been wanted. Now I get it.
You know, so the ball is ont of it. Yeah,
(23:59):
and that's the first day. Yeah, I'm like, this is it.
I always seek for this opportunity. I have it. I mean,
it's not about where I'm sleeping now, but it's where
I'm going to be sleeping. So you that coach who
wasn't even the coach at the gym, he talks to
the guy that owner on your behalf and yeah, he
(24:20):
talked to the coach and then he called me. And
then when I come there, he was always around trying
to like help me, support me, give me close. I
mean by the way, Like he was the the one
that gave me my first apartment. Yeah, from the street.
I went to his apartment. He has some apartment that
(24:41):
he was putting in the rent and he gave me
these two months and then I found my way. And
he was the one that like gave me my He
brought me to the sneaker shop and like choose one
pair of sneaker, my first, my first sneaker in Paris.
(25:02):
Like he was around a lot, you know, he was
around a lot, helped me, being very supportive. What did
they think of your boxing scale? He was the one
telling me about MMA because like. He was also a
big guy. So in the gym, I was sparring with
him and he would tell me like how good my
(25:22):
boxing is and how much potential I have. But if
I transit into MMA, I'll be having the fastest income
regarding my situation, you know. And that was the first
time that I'm like that I've heard from MM. And
then I'm like, what is MMA? He hadn't explained me. Yeah,
(25:42):
I didn't know what was M me And this was
like what sometime by the end of the end of
June or early twenty twenty thirteen. Yeah, then keep pushing.
I'm like, no, bro, I don't want any of that.
I just want like, yeah, I like boxing, like sweet boxing,
(26:04):
those wrestling staff ground I place. Yeah, what convinced your family?
What convinced you? So the gym was close during the
holiday or during August, the entire amount of August, so
I was looking for some place to keep training. And
(26:25):
then I asked the manager of the association that I
want to go next door see if they have a
boxing class day because I want to keep training. We
have a good relationship. I can't talk on your behalf,
you know. Then I'm like yes, So he went there,
met a guy named the guy that was in the fronds,
(26:47):
I think it was a part or no named Frank,
very nice guy. He just came. I'm like, yes, we like,
we would like to have him and this and that,
and that's how he started because that was an MMA gym.
So I went there and keep doing boxing and come
to MMA class a lot of MMA because he was entertaining.
I was having fun training practice, but I didn't want
(27:12):
anything to do with MMA career and people. I'm like, yes,
USC these or if you do this, you're gonna be
in the vis or you're gonna become a weird UFCA
champion one day. I'm like, what do I care about
USA or being a UFC champion? At that moment, I
didn't care at all. Like I was so focused on
boxing that I don't want like anybody or anything to
(27:35):
deviate me from my dream. Yea, and dream was specific.
It was dream was very specific. But you know, things
kind of like putting meself alone, like one by one,
step by step, and like two years after even without
really like focusing on MMA, and then I have a
(27:56):
UFCA contract. That was the moment that I'm like, okay, well,
how you get the contract? When we come back from
our final break, Francis talks about how we got iss
UFC contract and going on to become the heavyweight champion
of the world. Hold on, well, how you get the contract?
(28:23):
Two years after after a shoot MMA fight, that's when
I have it. I was like six after six fights
in MMA, six fights? He didn't did you do those
thinking wanting the contract? Did you do those more just
for fun? No? First he was to stay active. Then
at some point I started getting paid a little bit.
(28:44):
I mean it was more than welcome those little check
what we're getting paid? What was like? What were the
checks at that time? Oh? My first check was a tournament.
I fought twice in the same night and get paid
two thousand year twice in the same night. Though, that's
why get paid two thousand year O. That was my
(29:05):
first check. Then after that I get fight for three
hundred eight hundred until like I fought in Bahrain for
six thousand. That was my biggest CHECKO. And that was
my second fight in the octagon in Bahrain, Barrain. Yeah.
(29:27):
Then right after that UFC. It was until then that
I realized that okay, this might be the opportunity, Like
what was my goal at first to become a world
champion in the combat spot? This is it. This might
not be a bosing. This is a combat spot, and
(29:48):
I can also become a world champion. You sound accountable.
I'm a big moment. That's a big moment. Yeah, I
mean I realized that this is the opportunity. But the
thing that I was more scaled, you know, it was
it was the two years that I wasn't really committed
to the spot then then I wasn't really like I
didn't really feel it, you know, no experience in the
(30:10):
combat sport. Like I remember even being in Orlando for
my first fight, I was asking myself, like, what is
the rules? What are the rules of this sport? I
really don't know. I'm like, man, I'm going to fight
in the world stage in the spot and I don't
even know the rules, you know, Like in my mind,
(30:31):
I was just like, WHOA, I hope this was a
boxing fight because I was so comfortable in boxing that
I wouldn't care if it was a boxing I wouldn't
have to think about stuff, but I wouldn't have to
think about the rules that allowed that I have to
think on a lot of things, and he was I
didn't have those massy memory yet, you know, like now
(30:53):
I would do stuff instantly even without thinking about it.
Back then, I had to think about everything that I
am doing, you know, like okay, what about this? What
about this? If this happened, how do I do this?
You know, like just when you start something, you think
too much about it. That was what happened? Was your
strategy maybe then to just try on that first fight,
(31:14):
to try to keep it just boxing, like we were like,
maybe I'll trug when it's only on box. I knew
that I was I was the guy wasn't going to
box me. Basically he was a wrestler. Oh, he was
a wrestler and jiujitsu guy. Like, so, how did that
fight go? How did that first fight go? Well? First
round we struggled some wrestling, I got took down once
(31:37):
and then defend like fourth takedown. I think he he
was clear that he didn't want anything to do with me, like, uh,
striking like he was just punching. No, he was just
shooting in my leg, shooting my leg, trying to trip
you take it down, yes, and then when he's there
he will stay there like forever. And then after like
(31:58):
four or five times, he get exhausted, you know, like
when you're trying to take somebody down over and over,
you get exhausted. So in the middle of the second
round get knocked out. You knocked him out, Yeah, and
knocked him out like badly. At that point, you're kind
of squarely, you're firmly in the world of UFC, and
(32:23):
you're kind of unstoppable, right. Well, that was the beginning.
That was just the beginning, because like I was staying
in Paris at that time. After that, then I keep
fighting and everything was going good, Like I won my
first six fight in the UFA, then get to the
to the title fight, then lost in the title that
(32:46):
would have my first loss in the title trying to
become the world champion essentially, how tell me about that fight? Well, um,
because now you get into the real dream to be
world champion in a combat sport, and this is the
fight that's going to determine it. Yeah, you know, there's
(33:06):
a difference between the dream and the reality. I have
all those dreams and then I was getting in the octagon,
getting all those easy fight knock people out in the
first first minute, get performance of the night every time,
So it was quite easy, and I didn't really understand
(33:26):
like the sport didn't have an experience. They didn't even
know how they train or how they get prepared for
that level of fight. So kind of like get everything
wrong on that tirefight, that first one, and so far
I think it's the best. Is the best experience that
(33:48):
I have in my career. Is the best fight in
my career the one I lost because like even though
I didn't the outcome wasn't what I wanted. But what
I have learned from that fight led me to become
the champion today. As I always I always say, like
if I didn't lost to stip It the first time,
(34:09):
I could have easily lost to step It a second time.
But I learned. I learned a lot from that fight
than any or the fight. Can you walk with you
the fight then and what you're learning as best to
remember it is, I remember everything, but it's very hard
to explain. First of all, like I was, I was
(34:30):
under this pressure, and the worst thing is that I
didn't even know that I was under the pressure until
I get in the fight and the way that I
was acting. Then I watched the tape after and then
I'm like, what the hell is this guy? It looks
like me, but it's not me, Like that's not how
I do. But yes, you're pretty calm in the ring, right,
(34:51):
like you're a calming In that fight, I wasn't calm
at all. I was going all over throwing, like I
went there to basically like with the intention to knock
him out, which is something that I've never done, even
though I have a lot of knockout he just I
just let it come on his own. But I never
(35:12):
like worked there to knock somebody out. And that was
the first time I think, like I thought I just
gonna walk walk him through and knock him out, and
it didn't work. And it was nerves, not confidence or both.
He was nerves, he was pressure, he was everything. And
to be honest, when I look at how I get
(35:33):
prepared into that fight, he wasn't a right way. I
have never fought three round five, so that was a
five round five. You know, I have to go through
five rounds. I literally, like really never get punched into
five before then then I have to get hit a
(35:55):
lot in that fight. And I was so exhausted that
at some point I'm like, Wow, I think this guy
is just not strong enough to finish me because I
have nothing less. Wow. So it's just like the first
time that I've heard you kind of admit to yourself
(36:16):
in your head that like maybe I don't have I
can't get it done. Maybe I can't get it done.
Oh no, I mean you can't fool everybody, but you
can't fool yourself. Yeah. I know exactly what happened in
that fight. I know that I couldn't move my body anymore.
At some point, I was just so exhausted. I couldn't
(36:36):
just like give up, but I was done. In the
aftermath of that, What was the feedback you were getting
from like just the UFC, the fighting community. Oh, you know,
it was like my downfall. I think people was expecting
too much from me that they get disappointed and a
(36:59):
lot of people get pissed off. And he was very hot.
Like I remember at some point I couldn't open even
my social media for like weeks because when I when
I opened it, I would just see some main command
or some main article or something, and I'm like, damn,
you know, get out of it. You know, I get
(37:21):
to the point that I'm like, I don't care what
these people said. Yeah, they don't do anything with their life.
They don't have a dream, then they have never done anything.
Their only day is like to hit on people. I
like them. I mean, I'm not doing bad. I fight
so hard to get here, and it doesn't matter what happened.
At least I have tried and I have done something,
(37:43):
and I have tried so hard. You know, I have
to make that immense with myself to be able to
move on. And therefore, I think I was stronger than
before because I understand that or the element that I
didn't know was like the opinion, the people opinion or
the media or whatever is it. You know, I just
(38:05):
learned how to focus on me and what I have
to do. If he works, good, if he doesn't, it's okay.
As long as I know that I give my best.
I'm good with that. Therefore, I don't give a shite
of what anybody think. If you're with me, good, If
you're not good luck yeah yeah yeah. So after that
(38:26):
little bit of not be able to open your social
media looking your wounds a little bit, at that point,
I'm sure, how do you bounce back where he gave
me mentally like I went to my next fight. Then
that where I realized that I haven't dealed with my
previous fight because I was in my next fight. I mean, honest,
(38:49):
I never show up in my next fight, you know,
because I was there to fighting, trying to correct the
mistake from the past fight. Like, oh, I should have
been more patient than I was too patient, over patient
because I blame myself too much from Russian I was
just like, okay, hold back like yourself become you have
(39:11):
all the time. And then like I didn't even believe
when the fight was over, like because I didn't really fight,
I was mentally not there. That's a beautiful way of
putting it, that you didn't even show up to that
I didn't show up. I was in the middle of
the last one. Yeah, I was in the middle of
the cage, was thinking of my last fight with my
(39:33):
opening in front of me, was thinking of my last fight.
I kind of like understand now why Because I was
so concerned about what people think. I didn't have any
confidence on me anymore, and I wasn't even doing it
for me. There was so much pressure on my shoulder
at the time that the spot that I started for
(39:56):
fun get to the point that he wasn't fun anymore.
Then after my second loss, that was the moment that
I'm like, okay, why am I year all? They started
because it was fun. I went to the gym the
first time and keep going in the MMA gym because
I was having fun. Am I having fun anymore? No?
(40:19):
I'm just thinking about what people are thinking of me,
what this guy's thinking of me? Why do I care?
And I tell myself, like, okay, if this is it,
let it end on my way, you know, have fun.
And that's how I walked to my next fight. I'm like, Okay,
if I lost, it's okay. As long as I have phone,
(40:42):
I go out there, don't care about losing, because like,
you care so much about losing that you don't fight anymore.
When you start care about losing, you don't fight. That's
what happened in my second loss, Like I was so
concerned about losing that I didn't fight because I didn't
(41:04):
want to lose. This is a difference between going and
anything with the idea of I don't want to fail,
and going into something the idea that I want to succeed,
Like you were going into there saying I don't want
to fail. The problem is that when you don't want
to fail, you're not taking a chance to succeed, right,
You're timid. Yeah, you have to take a chance to
(41:26):
fail in order to succeed. You know, we talked about
your your loss to steep A. You eventually got a
chance to challenge them and beat them and become a
world champion, and to defend that and win that defense.
Your contract in the UFC's up next month, December twenty
twenty two. And it's an interesting position. I'd say you
(41:48):
find yourself in from my advantage point, and you may disagree.
You're in a sport that you sort of fell into
a lucky way. Luckily you fell into MMA, but your
dream was in a way, to always be a boxer.
You're you're lucky to become a world champion. You put
in the work, you sort of fulfilled what you can
do in UFC. The pay disparity between what UFC fighters
(42:11):
make and what boxers stand to make is very different.
Do you feel yourself in a position where it's like
you're almost overqualified for the UFC. It's like you you've
done a lot. No, No, not overqualified. I think if
you say overqualified is misspoken. But there's more you can
do in a way, there's more you can earn, you're
(42:32):
earning potentials. Yeah, but no, the problem is not how
UFC fighter get paid over over boxers, you know, Like,
it's not about how much you're making, and it's not
mostly about the amount of the money. It's about what
is on the table, the part that you're getting, what
(42:53):
you're getting of the whole pie. Right, Yes, so what
you're getting of the whole pie. I mean, I don't
expect anybody to take money out of his pocket to
pay me, right, I'm just saying what we do together,
if he provide something, treat me fairly. I'm not here
(43:14):
to compare my salary into boxing or to world. Back
in the days on Fighter, the fighters was fighting for
less than what we're fighting today. Some of them was
paying fairly, And today I can be paying most and
think I'm not getting paid fairly because I just think
(43:36):
we're generating more than the sport. The job that we're
doing is generating more than he was. That's it. That's it.
So it's not like overqualified. You can be overqualified for
a sport. Do you feel like you have a decision
to make to reap with the UFC or try something else. Yeah,
(44:00):
I know what what I want to do. For sure.
I always see myself in the UFCA, you know, like
maybe thinking of at some point be the bridge between
the UFC and Africa. Take those opportunity back. Maybe the
ambassador kind of like represent the brand in Africa. So
(44:23):
this as a proof of my commitment to the company,
you know. Yeah. So now I still wish, I still
hope for that, but I think something are broken and
need to be fixed. I have a short time in
the combat spot and I want to maximize it and
(44:44):
then until the day that I don't feel like doing
it anymore, then I step away, I walk away and
do something else, whatever it's possible to do. I'm sure
we're going to do it down the road. Yeah yeah, yeah, man,
Francis and Down, thank you for taking the time. Man,
I you it's it's an incredible life story. You have
incredible insights, and yeah, it's just honored man, Thank you,
(45:07):
thank you for having me. Since my conversation with Francis
and Gon who he's let his UFC contract laps and
is eyeing a match with one of boxing's biggest names, Tyson, Fury,
and Ghan was ready to bet on himself again, this
time to achieve his childhood dream of becoming a world
class boxer. Betting on yourself, of course, isn't the easiest
(45:30):
thing to do. There's a lot of room for failure,
but as Francis is noting, there's also room for exponential growth.
Started from the Bottom is produced by David Jaw, edited
by Keishaw Williams, Engineered by Benaliday, Booked by Laura Morgan
with production help from Lea Rose. The show's executive produced
(45:51):
by Jacob Boldstein, who's not all up in the videos
for Pushkin Industries. Our theme music's by Benaliday and David
Jaw featuring Anthony Aggs and Stvannah Joe Lack. Listen to
Start It from the Bottom. Wherever you get your podcasts
and if you want ad free episodes available one week
early sign up for Pushkin Plus. Check out Pushkin dot
(46:11):
fm or the Apple show page for more information. If
you like your show, please remember to share, rate, and
review us on your podcast app. I'm justin Richmond,
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