October 21, 2025 • 28 mins
Cowboy, now known as CB, was once a member of the powerful Flying Dragons gang, led by Johnny Eng, aka Onionhead. CB speaks with Lidia Jean Kott about why he joined the gang, about street-violence PTSD, and how he wound up in prison for 16 years. He also has an update on what Johnny Eng is up to today.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Kushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
This season of The Chinatown Sting has been about the
rise and fall of one gang, in particular the Flying Dragons.
I tried over and over it to get the perspective
of someone who'd actually been in the gang, but no
one was willing to speak to me until now today.
(00:41):
An interview with someone who's going to tell us about
the harsh life he led in the gang, how it
recruited kids, and how it all came to an end
for him. I'm Lady Jane Kott, and this is a
special bonus episode of.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
The Chinatown Sting.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Cowboy, who now goes by CB, came to the US
from Hong Kong in nineteen seventy one when he was
six years old. He joined the Flying Dragons shortly after
he started high school. That was back when a man
named Michael Chen aka the Scientist, was the leader of
the gang. In nineteen eighty three, the Scientist was shot
(01:23):
and CB managed to stay on in the gang as
it acquired a new boss, Johnny Ing aka Onion Head.
We actually heard CB's voice in an earlier episode. He
was interviewed on the YouTube channel Chinatown Gang Stories.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Onion was like a different regime. He was like, go
out make money everyone. It was like the Soviet Union
they disbanded. You give a freedom, they go, say to yourself,
what the fuck I will do with it. We don't
know how to make money except distributing drugs. So that
was the new era.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
CEB would later serve almost two decades in prison for
drug charges unrelated to the trial against Johnny, and then
for racketeering. He was one of many Flying Dragon members
indicted in nineteen ninety four. He was released in two
thousand and seven. I met with CB at a tea
shop on Pell Street, right by the Flying Dragon's old headquarters.
(02:25):
He was honest about how brutal the gang used to be,
but not as remorseful as you might expect. I asked
him why he joined the gang in the first place.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Well, from my early days I was bullied.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
When I came to the country, I lived in the
Bronx of all places, so my conditioning started there. Like
I always said, this was like nineteen seventy one. If
you look at my school year picture, I went to kindergarten,
I think first grade, second grade. You see in the
yearful pictures, you see some brown faces, some black faces. Wife,
(02:59):
there's only one yellow face, which was mine in the
whole school and maybe in that whole damn community. I'm
not kidding, and listen, don't understand. Kids are the meanness
every day when I went to school, it was an
exercise in survival.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
I'm not kidding.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I was walking and decide the street with my little backpack.
I see a bunch of kids that I walked the
other way, but they always see me every day. It
was like ing John with me, so I had to
either fight of like that type of lifestyle conditioning changed
me in a certain way to begin with, you know
(03:39):
what I mean. Long story short, fast forward. I'm in
Queen's Vacational High School. There was a branch or the
Flying Dragons there, the green section right there. So I
had a run in with them and they accosted me,
approached me. Back then, there was a thing with Chinese
right when you see another Chinese person.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
They bethinking he's a game?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Might not you approach him and you literally confront him
and say where are you from?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
To find out?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah, which you would tell by your attitude and your responses.
You know what I mean. There's a purpose to that one.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
You could root out enemy gangs too. It's a possible recruitment,
you know what I mean. And young kids all want
to belong to something. And the reason why I chose
the Flying Dragons was they had a moral foundation. What
they preached to me and the originally was that we're
here to protect the Chinese community. I mean it sounds
(04:31):
a little bit hypocritical though, but they said that we're
not supposed to deal with drugs. We're not supposed to
hurt civilians, meaning elderly ladies, women, children, We do not
commit rape.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
These are basic laws that they were told me. And
I said, whoa, this is.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Something I could get down with our apartments here, one
of the cardinal rules was no girls can go up there.
So our leader at that time, Michael chen Right, it
was very serious what he did.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
He was a leader before Onion Head. Yes, and he
was known as the Scientist.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yes, he had a lot of rules. He ran this
with a strict iron.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So you moved into one of these apartments here on
Pell Street as a teenager.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
When I first came down here, my bed was four
chairs put together. Oh wow, yes, you have to go
to a probation. He tested you to see do you
have the right stuff to be a full fledged member.
Actually he also did psychological profile me. A lot of
us were actually only sons, so we're looking to belong somewhere,
(05:36):
and a lot of us, my fellow brothers a generation,
we were all.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Picked one and bullied.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
He needed people who really wanted to feel like they
belonged in the gang.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And we're gonna be like committed to it.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Yes, because we were bullied.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
We wanted to fight back, but we didn't have the
power fight back. So he knew how to profile us
that way, and in retrospect, he built an army of
freaking ultra violent people because we all had a common
element of hatred for them.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Shadows, which were it. Yeah, I was gonna say, not
too far. Also, can you tell me about the war
with the ghost shadows?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But we foll every day almost right. But it's political too.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Because you guys were both fighting for who was going
to be the most important you.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Know what, The line, or should I say, the indoctrination
fit was that we are.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
The protectors of this community, not them.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So in respect, we felt like robin hoods and we
felt that they were the Antichrist, so we had to
come back them I mean that's how that's once against
that with teenagers too young, that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Was maybe they had the opposite story exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Maybe they were taught something else to this is what
we were taught to believe it.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And what was the relationship between because also on Pell
Street you had the gambling parlor and then you also
had the Hip Sang association, right, and what was the
relationship between you guys in your apartment.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
And the because back then in the days, right, the
FDS nine Joints was the military arm for the hip
syns Okay under the Uncle seven regime, Uncle Benny regime, who.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Was the head of the of the hip saying yes, and.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
He was he was finally looked at us like the
godfather of China.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
What about where were the Uncle Sevin's gambling houses? Where
were the locations?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Well, it's of information. Number fifteen's over there and the
famous number nine right.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Next to us.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
We had apartment upstairs which was used to monitor street
activity and act as a protection over there. We had
an apartment across the street there too and went down
there too. So all this was a purpose of just sleeping,
not partying, nothing else. And you also get use it
as a place where you put the troops. You gotta
(08:01):
be close by you close by the cloud. Think of
it as troop barracks. Barracks were the soldiers.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How did you get your nickname?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Cowboy?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Let's just say I was a little bit like like
like the image goal, a little bit rampunctious and reckless
when I was young, as I was small, I was
the youngest of the crowd, young or small. But it's
just it because I was picked on so much.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
I fight. Some people come out and put machetes on me.
Every day was violence, you know when we were young.
You know how we were trained to fight? Street fighting.
I don't know even know.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Back in the days, there was a lot of vagabonds,
bums how you are called on the streets of Bowie.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
They lay all over the streets, all over. It's not
like this.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So our elders will tell us it sounds cruel to
practice on them, but.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
We will kick them out. We're tell them to get
off the street.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
We thought we're doing the service because they're lying front
of the business stores and everything, and we're here to protect
the neighborhood, clean up the airs, and we'll tell them
to move if they don't move then, you know, obviously
we would have to force him to move. And that's
how weaking our training from to fight in the streets.
Drop over a hat.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Otherwise, the normal lay person, you tell me right now
to fight or hit somebody, you can't if you never
hit a person. It's a little threshold that you don't
know how to pass unless you did it already. To
be violent or another human being is something else, you.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's not something i'm gonna say I'm proud of, but
it's something that was conditioned, conditioned for us to be
just like soldiers.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
In nineteen eighty three, the body of Michael Chen, also
known as the Scientist, was found inside an office belonging
to the hip, saying that community Association on Pell Street
he had been shot to death. His murder was never solved,
and the man who took over the gang after him
would be a very different sort of leader.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I'm back with CEB, a former member of the Flying
Dragons gang in Manhattan's Chinatown in nineteen eighty three, after
spending his early teenage years under the Scientists leadership, CB
now eighteen, had to adjust to life under a new leader,
Johnny Yang on your head.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
It was basically it wasn't so strict. It wasn't that
many rules that you had to follow. Under Michael there
was so much code of conduct. Hm, you have to
carry yourself a certain way. You can't do this, can't
do that. No, But on the onion is more or
less like like we'll make money.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
But here's the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Well, young, all we knew as kids going up was
rules and engaging in street violence. So it's only natural.
The next thing that fell upon us was this dribbled
drugs on a different level. Of course, we had the balls,
you know what I mean. We spoke English, so it
was a natural choice.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Why do you think Johnny like, why was that his approach?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Why wasn't he stretched like like the scientist is.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Different. He's not as.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Controlling, you know what I mean, as controlling as Michael
Chen was. So I guess there's something that fell on
his lap too. I'm sure there's other people that want
to step up for that position, but then there will
be opposition. Here's one person with enough street creds. You
have enough street creds and time in for people to
respect you. You know what I mean, so for you
(11:57):
to take that role, then people will fall in line, right.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
And out of everyone we've talked to you on this series,
I think you probably know Onion the best. Like, how
would you describe what he was like?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
What's he like? Person?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
You need to understand something in the streets. We all
have a persona. Nobody breaks out a character, okay, and
nobody really gets to know each other.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
That well, that's interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
And I guess my nicknames Okay, they're not just for show.
There's a purpose to it.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I know my Elderns for like freaking years and I
don't know his real name.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
There's a reason for that.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
If I don't know your name, I can never be
informing on you. There's a purpose to it, right, So
that's why everybody got these colorful nicknames, right. That was
given sometimes because based on your personality or whatever to be,
you will give a nickname and it sticks to you
and that's what you'll refer to. Everything is on a
need to know basis, and we don't know where each
(12:56):
other lives.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
But what was his persona? Just that he was like
a business.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Guy, is much much more business like than Michael. It
wasn't it didn't put up the airs as.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Much like that was more casual.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
You could catch them just sneakers and jeans and a
T shirt, very unassuming.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
It's so funny because if you read like the newspapers,
they're all.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Like Johnny who was always wearing expensive suits.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Like not very unassuming. Yeah, you see him walk on
the street. What's character.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
He is more interested in making money doing business as
opposed to trying to control territory, get into war and
all that stuff. All that stuff was just pass for us.
That plus a lot of us became what's the word
I look for. It's almost a little bit like post
traumatic syndrome. By the time Onion took over, a lot
(13:47):
of us been through many years of ultra violence.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Johnny came, you guys all had some PTSD. You were like,
let's make them everybody.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
A lot of us, A lot of us they didn't
want to engage in the violence anymore. And also we're
growing up. By the time Johnny came in, we were
now in our late teens eighteen nineteen, so we realized
one thing, ship we need money.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Right, how to make the money in the drugs?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
But were you aware of the risks of like this
was during the War on drugs. There's the mandatory minimums, Like,
were you considering were you thinking about that?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Of course not?
Speaker 5 (14:26):
You were going to say, of course we were thinking
about th think about the mindset where gangsters real full
time not weekend warriors gain that's the life we leave
lived by this sor died by this type of thing.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So it's part of it's all part of the experience.
If you're going to be scared about that stuff, you
can't be a gangster.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Right, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Were you thinking about the risks you were putting on
other people?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Like when you're asking the woman and the madrong parlors
to like accept those packages of heroin?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
What could happen to them?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
No, like the.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Moms Nope, nope, Because why here here's the thing. Nobody's
forced to do anything. Really, whoever volunteers I mean terms
of trade, would receive BA just they did it for money,
all right, Maybe maybe you have to pick certain people
that was down on their luck or whatever, but still
(15:18):
it was through their own consent. I mean, honest, I
myself received the package before. That's my first thing.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
That's how you started.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yet in that drug trade thing, I was paid twenty
thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
That's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Money, yeah, especially in nineteen eighties.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yes, but it was a due or die job, meaning
all you have to do was sit there and wait
for the package to come. If the package passion comes in,
you get it.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
It's clean.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
But it was intercepted. It was a sting operation. You're
done right, you know what I mean. So it was
a due or die thing. I did it once only
because I knew it was due or die and nevertheand
that I started to move up the chain of distribution
instead of just being the meal of accepting, which is
really started to find customers to distribute the product itself.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
How easy was.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
It to bring the drugs into the country, like to
get the connections in Hong Kong, and.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Back then it was pretty easy. It said.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Technology was different, you know back then to send the
package I we see was just wrapped around with toys
in the middle. Part of it was the actual product yourself.
Because a seven hundred grand brick is like a size
of like a like a dictionary, like a thick dictionary.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Big thick.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But yeah, that's quite big.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yeah, ten of them put together, Valo like a million dollars.
It's about only this bay. It brings me to a store.
When I was in China one time, right, somebody sharing me,
and how to conceal these packages was to smear the
inside of it with tiger shit figer feces. Yeah, I said,
what you know why? This is what he said to me.
(16:59):
I don't know if it worked or not, but he said,
dogs have an intrinsic natural fear.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Oh my god, so dog, yes, it's.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Going to it, they'll move away from it. Back then,
that the fact, then the legend.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Back then, the only thing to have with dogs and radar,
I mean X ray, not like nowadays, to get it
where they see him. You're figuring Adams, you know what
I mean. But I remember because I was in China
and I asked some people. I said, listen, can you
go do a zoo and find me some tiger?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Actually did you do it? Uh?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Later on, when I started to try to move into
importation myself, right, I actually found people in China. China,
you understand, it's the death penalty to mess with drugs.
Back then, we're still communists, you know me. So we
took a lot of boards to do it. So I
had to find people go to zoo. They give me
some tiger feeces itself.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Did that message make it safely to New York?
Speaker 4 (17:52):
No? Not you to Puerto Rico.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
It wasn't a destination that was on the radar. And
then I have my under links from Puerto Rico bring
it back into the States. Yeah, you know what I mean,
because that was easy coming into the state.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Did you ever go to the Johnny's State in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
The shooting place? Now?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, you never went? Oh you know I went to it.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
You went to it?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Really? Yeah, when you mean later on, not when he
was around.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
My good friend Onion had invited me.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
No, I went, like for reporting the podcast, it's now
a shooting range officially, How can we never made it
to Johnny?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, under Johnny's regime, I was also doing other stuff,
you know what I mean. I partner up with other
members to distribute stuff, some of it his product, not
necessarily or his products, you know what I mean. So,
like I said, under Johnny's regime, he being a businessman,
and while we all still one flag.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
But you're kind of doing a different thing.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, so you didn't you didn't get an invite to
the shooting.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I mean, no, I'll be honest.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
You to share a story, right, Uh, Johnny was Obviously
there's certain things that need to be done, like sometimes
people need to bring money back to Hong Kong, right,
and you would get paid an X amount of money,
strap money on your body.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
To bring it back. Way.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I turned down that offer, I see, because I said
to myself this.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
I still remember.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I said, when I go back, I'm gonna go back
on my own court, you know what I mean. I'm
gonna go back, not as a worker, but under my
own choice. And I did later on, Well, I call
it court ambition, call it what you like, you know
what I mean. I'm going back as my own man.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
He didn't want to go back smuggling money for another.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Guy exactly, something like that exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But the law would soon catch up with CB and
with the Flying Dragons. That's after the break in nineteen
ninety one, see, he was arrested for playing a role
(20:10):
in a drug conspiracy, one that didn't involve Johnny. He
was in the mcc that jail on your Chinatown awaiting
his trial, and then he saw a familiar face, someone
who he hadn't seen for a while one.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Day I woke up, I came out of my tier,
my room, and I saw the skinny guy standing in
front of the common area. Now in MCC, I was
always established.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
I was like, let's just sound. I was comfortable a
right there.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I had my whole surroundings everything, So I was, holy shit,
who's that union. Probably at that time was just Extra
died over here. Yeah, it was just Extra died and
he landed here. I saw him as holy shit onion.
But Lucky ran into me because I said, okay, you're
my new roommate. At that time, I had cloud in pash,
so I told the CELA, moved my guy out.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
He's moving into my room.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
But that only lasted for a few days because I'm
sure the prosecutor found out had split this up right away.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, was he a good roommate.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I mean he's my elder. I mean, I mean this
thing that is good and not good, you know what
I mean. I still respect the fact he's my elder.
So I did the best I can to hook him up,
make sure everything is okay. Because in prison, right especially
the attention center, the best spot is if you have
a job in the kitchen passing out of food because
inside there's not much amenities. You know, eating is.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
One of them.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
So when you have the spot as the orderlies to
distribute food, then you hold everything.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
So I get a job in the kitchen to distribute food.
But those are positions of Cloud in prison.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So you hooked him up, yes, And what impact did
his conviction have on on the gang?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
There's a void, you know why, because all the leadership
was inside. Once you have upper management and even middle
management gone, the rest just falls apart.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yeah, that's just like any organization legit or imit. And
the FETs knew that too. The best know what they do.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I guess I was wondering, looking back, do you regret
bringing dregs into the country and your time being in
a gang in Chinatown and extorting shopkeepers.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
But here's the thing, though, when you like the way
we so called extort shopkeepers, it's not like we go
in there flip their chair. No, because all these they're
all members of the association. Everybody over there is a
member of the Online Association. Everybody this size a member
of the hips In Association. So they pay their adues
(22:38):
to the Business Association. Anyway, Now, we when we go
approach these stores, this is the line we tell them.
Can you help support the young the young brothers in
the street. Sometime these restaurants, they say, sometime we need
a place to eat, right, and in return, we will
protect you.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
For real, we will protect you.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
You have a problem, because we're going to show up
and we do stand by that.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So you're more like mandatory bodyguards.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yes, that's the best way they put it. It's I'm
the Tory security guard.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You have to hire this security firm, which we have
the security guards with this whole neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
But like I was reading testimony from people, because you know,
there was there were these congressional hearings in Washington and
nineteen eighty two, and there were a couple of people
from Chinatown, like small business owners, and they testified at
this congressional hearing about the gangs. And one of them said,
I'm a manager at a restaurant located at the heart
of Chinatown, New York City. Because my business location is
(23:38):
controlled by a gang named the Flying Dragons, I'm constantly
threatened and intimidated by them. As a manager of a restaurant,
I have to try and show them a respectful manner,
otherwise I put myself in danger. And they were there
asking for, like you know, there to be a crackdown
on the gangs.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Basically, well, here's the thing, slow, We're not going to
go in there and just intimidate you unless you don't
go with the program. You have to go with the program.
Every store has to follow the program. Of course, this
section belongs to and US, so nobody can buck the system.
(24:13):
Same as over there too on the other side. So
I'm sure if he was bucking the system, then probably
somebody had to say something to put him in line.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Put him in check.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Usually usually, like I say, they all know what they
know the deal. That's the way they do business in
China back then. If you know, being this neighbor around here,
you had to pay your dues to the work association,
the business association, and to us.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So in your perspective, you are just like one tiny
little part of like a system that was much bigger
on every single street.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yes, that's the way business was done in.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
China, I mean, but now it's not.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Yes, it's not.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
It's I I'll relate my feelings. When I came back
out after I was released from prison, right. I never
felt so safe. I said, New York City is so safe.
Do you know back then, when I was out here,
right twenty four to seven, I say, every day I'm strapped.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
I have a gun on me every.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Day, not because I want to hurt somebody, go I
don't need to take myself, because that's how New York
City was. Yeah, But when I came back out in
two thousand and seven, I said, Wow, you could walk
anywhere and you feel safe.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
They cleaned every day, and that was a good thing.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Do you think the gangs will ever come back?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Not like in that form. Nowadays you have a lot
of crews five six guys. They don't have a name,
but they are here to do business, not to make trouble,
not to take over territory, and not to extort anyone.
So you still have people that have to conduct illegal businesses.
That's true of everywhere, you know what I mean. But
(25:50):
in the terms of an actual crew raising a crime,
the Feds did away with that already.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
Rico.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, nobody wants to do that because right away you
sell yourself for a recal conviction.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Do you think that's better this new way of doing crime?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
I'm not gonna say it's better. Well, I know, is
this Listen, the streets are safer.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, what are you doing now?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I moved to different industries you now, I mean for
a while I was in the KTV business.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
What's that karaoke? Now I'm in the restaurant industry.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And what can you say about what Onion is up
to now?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
If anything, he's.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
A businessman, legitimate businessman.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I will say, yeah, he's totally legit because I know
because he works his ass off. Uh huh, you know
me in the industry he's in, you know what I mean?
Very rough, Yes, it's very rough industry he is in.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
And uh, you know what I mean, he has his
ups and downs.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Can you say what the industry is there now?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Seafood distribution?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
What do you.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
People learn from the story of like when the gangs
ran in Chinatown in the nineteen eighties and then stopped existing.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
What's the taking?
Speaker 4 (26:57):
No?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I think the Italians has always been romanticized access stretcher
in the movies and stuff, right, but really, little do
they know that the Chinese were doing their own thing too.
It's just that we're much more secretive. We didn't want
that much attention, so it's also it's a part of history.
(27:17):
We're just clarifying history and this part of what it
was Nowwach.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Everything is clean. It's great, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
So at least I'm around to talk about it, you know,
so that's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yes, well, thank you. Should I call you Cowboy or.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
CV nowadays said by coming CB, I shorten it too
much baggage.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
With the cowboy.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Well, thank you so much, CV, thank you coming on
the show.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Thank you very much. It's thank you.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
CB is a former member of the Flying Dragons. This
episode of The China Hunstan was produced by Sonia Gurwitt
and edited by Julia Barton. It was engineered by Sarah Bruguer.
Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Our music was composed
by John Sung, with additional music by Jake Gorski. Special
(28:11):
thanks to Mike Moy of Chinatown Gang Stories for connecting
me to CB. The Chinatown Staning is a production of
Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I'm Lydia Gene Copp
Kushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
This season of The Chinatown Sting has been about the
rise and fall of one gang, in particular the Flying Dragons.
I tried over and over it to get the perspective
of someone who'd actually been in the gang, but no
one was willing to speak to me until now today.
(00:41):
An interview with someone who's going to tell us about
the harsh life he led in the gang, how it
recruited kids, and how it all came to an end
for him. I'm Lady Jane Kott, and this is a
special bonus episode of.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
The Chinatown Sting.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Cowboy, who now goes by CB, came to the US
from Hong Kong in nineteen seventy one when he was
six years old. He joined the Flying Dragons shortly after
he started high school. That was back when a man
named Michael Chen aka the Scientist, was the leader of
the gang. In nineteen eighty three, the Scientist was shot
(01:23):
and CB managed to stay on in the gang as
it acquired a new boss, Johnny Ing aka Onion Head.
We actually heard CB's voice in an earlier episode. He
was interviewed on the YouTube channel Chinatown Gang Stories.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Onion was like a different regime. He was like, go
out make money everyone. It was like the Soviet Union
they disbanded. You give a freedom, they go, say to yourself,
what the fuck I will do with it. We don't
know how to make money except distributing drugs. So that
was the new era.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
CEB would later serve almost two decades in prison for
drug charges unrelated to the trial against Johnny, and then
for racketeering. He was one of many Flying Dragon members
indicted in nineteen ninety four. He was released in two
thousand and seven. I met with CB at a tea
shop on Pell Street, right by the Flying Dragon's old headquarters.
(02:25):
He was honest about how brutal the gang used to be,
but not as remorseful as you might expect. I asked
him why he joined the gang in the first place.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Well, from my early days I was bullied.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
When I came to the country, I lived in the
Bronx of all places, so my conditioning started there. Like
I always said, this was like nineteen seventy one. If
you look at my school year picture, I went to kindergarten,
I think first grade, second grade. You see in the
yearful pictures, you see some brown faces, some black faces. Wife,
(02:59):
there's only one yellow face, which was mine in the
whole school and maybe in that whole damn community. I'm
not kidding, and listen, don't understand. Kids are the meanness
every day when I went to school, it was an
exercise in survival.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
I'm not kidding.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I was walking and decide the street with my little backpack.
I see a bunch of kids that I walked the
other way, but they always see me every day. It
was like ing John with me, so I had to
either fight of like that type of lifestyle conditioning changed
me in a certain way to begin with, you know
(03:39):
what I mean. Long story short, fast forward. I'm in
Queen's Vacational High School. There was a branch or the
Flying Dragons there, the green section right there. So I
had a run in with them and they accosted me,
approached me. Back then, there was a thing with Chinese
right when you see another Chinese person.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
They bethinking he's a game?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Might not you approach him and you literally confront him
and say where are you from?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
To find out?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah, which you would tell by your attitude and your responses.
You know what I mean. There's a purpose to that one.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
You could root out enemy gangs too. It's a possible recruitment,
you know what I mean. And young kids all want
to belong to something. And the reason why I chose
the Flying Dragons was they had a moral foundation. What
they preached to me and the originally was that we're
here to protect the Chinese community. I mean it sounds
(04:31):
a little bit hypocritical though, but they said that we're
not supposed to deal with drugs. We're not supposed to
hurt civilians, meaning elderly ladies, women, children, We do not
commit rape.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
These are basic laws that they were told me. And
I said, whoa, this is.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Something I could get down with our apartments here, one
of the cardinal rules was no girls can go up there.
So our leader at that time, Michael chen Right, it
was very serious what he did.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
He was a leader before Onion Head. Yes, and he
was known as the Scientist.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yes, he had a lot of rules. He ran this
with a strict iron.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So you moved into one of these apartments here on
Pell Street as a teenager.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
When I first came down here, my bed was four
chairs put together. Oh wow, yes, you have to go
to a probation. He tested you to see do you
have the right stuff to be a full fledged member.
Actually he also did psychological profile me. A lot of
us were actually only sons, so we're looking to belong somewhere,
(05:36):
and a lot of us, my fellow brothers a generation,
we were all.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Picked one and bullied.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
He needed people who really wanted to feel like they
belonged in the gang.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And we're gonna be like committed to it.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Yes, because we were bullied.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
We wanted to fight back, but we didn't have the
power fight back. So he knew how to profile us
that way, and in retrospect, he built an army of
freaking ultra violent people because we all had a common
element of hatred for them.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Shadows, which were it. Yeah, I was gonna say, not
too far. Also, can you tell me about the war
with the ghost shadows?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But we foll every day almost right. But it's political too.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Because you guys were both fighting for who was going
to be the most important you.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Know what, The line, or should I say, the indoctrination
fit was that we are.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
The protectors of this community, not them.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So in respect, we felt like robin hoods and we
felt that they were the Antichrist, so we had to
come back them I mean that's how that's once against
that with teenagers too young, that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Was maybe they had the opposite story exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Maybe they were taught something else to this is what
we were taught to believe it.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And what was the relationship between because also on Pell
Street you had the gambling parlor and then you also
had the Hip Sang association, right, and what was the
relationship between you guys in your apartment.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
And the because back then in the days, right, the
FDS nine Joints was the military arm for the hip
syns Okay under the Uncle seven regime, Uncle Benny regime, who.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Was the head of the of the hip saying yes, and.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
He was he was finally looked at us like the
godfather of China.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
What about where were the Uncle Sevin's gambling houses? Where
were the locations?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Well, it's of information. Number fifteen's over there and the
famous number nine right.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Next to us.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
We had apartment upstairs which was used to monitor street
activity and act as a protection over there. We had
an apartment across the street there too and went down
there too. So all this was a purpose of just sleeping,
not partying, nothing else. And you also get use it
as a place where you put the troops. You gotta
(08:01):
be close by you close by the cloud. Think of
it as troop barracks. Barracks were the soldiers.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How did you get your nickname?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Cowboy?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Let's just say I was a little bit like like
like the image goal, a little bit rampunctious and reckless
when I was young, as I was small, I was
the youngest of the crowd, young or small. But it's
just it because I was picked on so much.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
I fight. Some people come out and put machetes on me.
Every day was violence, you know when we were young.
You know how we were trained to fight? Street fighting.
I don't know even know.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Back in the days, there was a lot of vagabonds,
bums how you are called on the streets of Bowie.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
They lay all over the streets, all over. It's not
like this.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So our elders will tell us it sounds cruel to
practice on them, but.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
We will kick them out. We're tell them to get
off the street.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
We thought we're doing the service because they're lying front
of the business stores and everything, and we're here to protect
the neighborhood, clean up the airs, and we'll tell them
to move if they don't move then, you know, obviously
we would have to force him to move. And that's
how weaking our training from to fight in the streets.
Drop over a hat.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Otherwise, the normal lay person, you tell me right now
to fight or hit somebody, you can't if you never
hit a person. It's a little threshold that you don't
know how to pass unless you did it already. To
be violent or another human being is something else, you.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's not something i'm gonna say I'm proud of, but
it's something that was conditioned, conditioned for us to be
just like soldiers.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
In nineteen eighty three, the body of Michael Chen, also
known as the Scientist, was found inside an office belonging
to the hip, saying that community Association on Pell Street
he had been shot to death. His murder was never solved,
and the man who took over the gang after him
would be a very different sort of leader.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I'm back with CEB, a former member of the Flying
Dragons gang in Manhattan's Chinatown in nineteen eighty three, after
spending his early teenage years under the Scientists leadership, CB
now eighteen, had to adjust to life under a new leader,
Johnny Yang on your head.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
It was basically it wasn't so strict. It wasn't that
many rules that you had to follow. Under Michael there
was so much code of conduct. Hm, you have to
carry yourself a certain way. You can't do this, can't
do that. No, But on the onion is more or
less like like we'll make money.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
But here's the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Well, young, all we knew as kids going up was
rules and engaging in street violence. So it's only natural.
The next thing that fell upon us was this dribbled
drugs on a different level. Of course, we had the balls,
you know what I mean. We spoke English, so it
was a natural choice.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Why do you think Johnny like, why was that his approach?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Why wasn't he stretched like like the scientist is.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Different. He's not as.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Controlling, you know what I mean, as controlling as Michael
Chen was. So I guess there's something that fell on
his lap too. I'm sure there's other people that want
to step up for that position, but then there will
be opposition. Here's one person with enough street creds. You
have enough street creds and time in for people to
respect you. You know what I mean, so for you
(11:57):
to take that role, then people will fall in line, right.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
And out of everyone we've talked to you on this series,
I think you probably know Onion the best. Like, how
would you describe what he was like?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
What's he like? Person?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
You need to understand something in the streets. We all
have a persona. Nobody breaks out a character, okay, and
nobody really gets to know each other.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
That well, that's interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
And I guess my nicknames Okay, they're not just for show.
There's a purpose to it.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I know my Elderns for like freaking years and I
don't know his real name.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
There's a reason for that.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
If I don't know your name, I can never be
informing on you. There's a purpose to it, right, So
that's why everybody got these colorful nicknames, right. That was
given sometimes because based on your personality or whatever to be,
you will give a nickname and it sticks to you
and that's what you'll refer to. Everything is on a
need to know basis, and we don't know where each
(12:56):
other lives.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
But what was his persona? Just that he was like
a business.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Guy, is much much more business like than Michael. It
wasn't it didn't put up the airs as.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Much like that was more casual.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
You could catch them just sneakers and jeans and a
T shirt, very unassuming.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
It's so funny because if you read like the newspapers,
they're all.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Like Johnny who was always wearing expensive suits.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Like not very unassuming. Yeah, you see him walk on
the street. What's character.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
He is more interested in making money doing business as
opposed to trying to control territory, get into war and
all that stuff. All that stuff was just pass for us.
That plus a lot of us became what's the word
I look for. It's almost a little bit like post
traumatic syndrome. By the time Onion took over, a lot
(13:47):
of us been through many years of ultra violence.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Johnny came, you guys all had some PTSD. You were like,
let's make them everybody.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
A lot of us, A lot of us they didn't
want to engage in the violence anymore. And also we're
growing up. By the time Johnny came in, we were
now in our late teens eighteen nineteen, so we realized
one thing, ship we need money.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Right, how to make the money in the drugs?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
But were you aware of the risks of like this
was during the War on drugs. There's the mandatory minimums, Like,
were you considering were you thinking about that?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Of course not?
Speaker 5 (14:26):
You were going to say, of course we were thinking
about th think about the mindset where gangsters real full
time not weekend warriors gain that's the life we leave
lived by this sor died by this type of thing.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So it's part of it's all part of the experience.
If you're going to be scared about that stuff, you
can't be a gangster.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Right, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Were you thinking about the risks you were putting on
other people?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Like when you're asking the woman and the madrong parlors
to like accept those packages of heroin?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
What could happen to them?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
No, like the.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Moms Nope, nope, Because why here here's the thing. Nobody's
forced to do anything. Really, whoever volunteers I mean terms
of trade, would receive BA just they did it for money,
all right, Maybe maybe you have to pick certain people
that was down on their luck or whatever, but still
(15:18):
it was through their own consent. I mean, honest, I
myself received the package before. That's my first thing.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
That's how you started.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yet in that drug trade thing, I was paid twenty
thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
That's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Money, yeah, especially in nineteen eighties.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yes, but it was a due or die job, meaning
all you have to do was sit there and wait
for the package to come. If the package passion comes in,
you get it.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
It's clean.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
But it was intercepted. It was a sting operation. You're
done right, you know what I mean. So it was
a due or die thing. I did it once only
because I knew it was due or die and nevertheand
that I started to move up the chain of distribution
instead of just being the meal of accepting, which is
really started to find customers to distribute the product itself.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
How easy was.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
It to bring the drugs into the country, like to
get the connections in Hong Kong, and.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Back then it was pretty easy. It said.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Technology was different, you know back then to send the
package I we see was just wrapped around with toys
in the middle. Part of it was the actual product yourself.
Because a seven hundred grand brick is like a size
of like a like a dictionary, like a thick dictionary.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Big thick.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But yeah, that's quite big.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yeah, ten of them put together, Valo like a million dollars.
It's about only this bay. It brings me to a store.
When I was in China one time, right, somebody sharing me,
and how to conceal these packages was to smear the
inside of it with tiger shit figer feces. Yeah, I said,
what you know why? This is what he said to me.
(16:59):
I don't know if it worked or not, but he said,
dogs have an intrinsic natural fear.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Oh my god, so dog, yes, it's.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Going to it, they'll move away from it. Back then,
that the fact, then the legend.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Back then, the only thing to have with dogs and radar,
I mean X ray, not like nowadays, to get it
where they see him. You're figuring Adams, you know what
I mean. But I remember because I was in China
and I asked some people. I said, listen, can you
go do a zoo and find me some tiger?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Actually did you do it? Uh?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Later on, when I started to try to move into
importation myself, right, I actually found people in China. China,
you understand, it's the death penalty to mess with drugs.
Back then, we're still communists, you know me. So we
took a lot of boards to do it. So I
had to find people go to zoo. They give me
some tiger feeces itself.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Did that message make it safely to New York?
Speaker 4 (17:52):
No? Not you to Puerto Rico.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
It wasn't a destination that was on the radar. And
then I have my under links from Puerto Rico bring
it back into the States. Yeah, you know what I mean,
because that was easy coming into the state.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Did you ever go to the Johnny's State in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
The shooting place? Now?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, you never went? Oh you know I went to it.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
You went to it?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Really? Yeah, when you mean later on, not when he
was around.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
My good friend Onion had invited me.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
No, I went, like for reporting the podcast, it's now
a shooting range officially, How can we never made it
to Johnny?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, under Johnny's regime, I was also doing other stuff,
you know what I mean. I partner up with other
members to distribute stuff, some of it his product, not
necessarily or his products, you know what I mean. So,
like I said, under Johnny's regime, he being a businessman,
and while we all still one flag.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
But you're kind of doing a different thing.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, so you didn't you didn't get an invite to
the shooting.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I mean, no, I'll be honest.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
You to share a story, right, Uh, Johnny was Obviously
there's certain things that need to be done, like sometimes
people need to bring money back to Hong Kong, right,
and you would get paid an X amount of money,
strap money on your body.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
To bring it back. Way.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I turned down that offer, I see, because I said
to myself this.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
I still remember.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I said, when I go back, I'm gonna go back
on my own court, you know what I mean. I'm
gonna go back, not as a worker, but under my
own choice. And I did later on, Well, I call
it court ambition, call it what you like, you know
what I mean. I'm going back as my own man.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
He didn't want to go back smuggling money for another.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Guy exactly, something like that exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But the law would soon catch up with CB and
with the Flying Dragons. That's after the break in nineteen
ninety one, see, he was arrested for playing a role
(20:10):
in a drug conspiracy, one that didn't involve Johnny. He
was in the mcc that jail on your Chinatown awaiting
his trial, and then he saw a familiar face, someone
who he hadn't seen for a while one.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Day I woke up, I came out of my tier,
my room, and I saw the skinny guy standing in
front of the common area. Now in MCC, I was
always established.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
I was like, let's just sound. I was comfortable a
right there.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I had my whole surroundings everything, So I was, holy shit,
who's that union. Probably at that time was just Extra
died over here. Yeah, it was just Extra died and
he landed here. I saw him as holy shit onion.
But Lucky ran into me because I said, okay, you're
my new roommate. At that time, I had cloud in pash,
so I told the CELA, moved my guy out.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
He's moving into my room.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
But that only lasted for a few days because I'm
sure the prosecutor found out had split this up right away.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, was he a good roommate.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I mean he's my elder. I mean, I mean this
thing that is good and not good, you know what
I mean. I still respect the fact he's my elder.
So I did the best I can to hook him up,
make sure everything is okay. Because in prison, right especially
the attention center, the best spot is if you have
a job in the kitchen passing out of food because
inside there's not much amenities. You know, eating is.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
One of them.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
So when you have the spot as the orderlies to
distribute food, then you hold everything.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
So I get a job in the kitchen to distribute food.
But those are positions of Cloud in prison.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So you hooked him up, yes, And what impact did
his conviction have on on the gang?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
There's a void, you know why, because all the leadership
was inside. Once you have upper management and even middle
management gone, the rest just falls apart.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yeah, that's just like any organization legit or imit. And
the FETs knew that too. The best know what they do.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I guess I was wondering, looking back, do you regret
bringing dregs into the country and your time being in
a gang in Chinatown and extorting shopkeepers.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
But here's the thing, though, when you like the way
we so called extort shopkeepers, it's not like we go
in there flip their chair. No, because all these they're
all members of the association. Everybody over there is a
member of the Online Association. Everybody this size a member
of the hips In Association. So they pay their adues
(22:38):
to the Business Association. Anyway, Now, we when we go
approach these stores, this is the line we tell them.
Can you help support the young the young brothers in
the street. Sometime these restaurants, they say, sometime we need
a place to eat, right, and in return, we will
protect you.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
For real, we will protect you.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
You have a problem, because we're going to show up
and we do stand by that.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So you're more like mandatory bodyguards.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yes, that's the best way they put it. It's I'm
the Tory security guard.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You have to hire this security firm, which we have
the security guards with this whole neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
But like I was reading testimony from people, because you know,
there was there were these congressional hearings in Washington and
nineteen eighty two, and there were a couple of people
from Chinatown, like small business owners, and they testified at
this congressional hearing about the gangs. And one of them said,
I'm a manager at a restaurant located at the heart
of Chinatown, New York City. Because my business location is
(23:38):
controlled by a gang named the Flying Dragons, I'm constantly
threatened and intimidated by them. As a manager of a restaurant,
I have to try and show them a respectful manner,
otherwise I put myself in danger. And they were there
asking for, like you know, there to be a crackdown
on the gangs.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Basically, well, here's the thing, slow, We're not going to
go in there and just intimidate you unless you don't
go with the program. You have to go with the program.
Every store has to follow the program. Of course, this
section belongs to and US, so nobody can buck the system.
(24:13):
Same as over there too on the other side. So
I'm sure if he was bucking the system, then probably
somebody had to say something to put him in line.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Put him in check.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Usually usually, like I say, they all know what they
know the deal. That's the way they do business in
China back then. If you know, being this neighbor around here,
you had to pay your dues to the work association,
the business association, and to us.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So in your perspective, you are just like one tiny
little part of like a system that was much bigger
on every single street.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yes, that's the way business was done in.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
China, I mean, but now it's not.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Yes, it's not.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
It's I I'll relate my feelings. When I came back
out after I was released from prison, right. I never
felt so safe. I said, New York City is so safe.
Do you know back then, when I was out here,
right twenty four to seven, I say, every day I'm strapped.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
I have a gun on me every.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Day, not because I want to hurt somebody, go I
don't need to take myself, because that's how New York
City was. Yeah, But when I came back out in
two thousand and seven, I said, Wow, you could walk
anywhere and you feel safe.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
They cleaned every day, and that was a good thing.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Do you think the gangs will ever come back?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Not like in that form. Nowadays you have a lot
of crews five six guys. They don't have a name,
but they are here to do business, not to make trouble,
not to take over territory, and not to extort anyone.
So you still have people that have to conduct illegal businesses.
That's true of everywhere, you know what I mean. But
(25:50):
in the terms of an actual crew raising a crime,
the Feds did away with that already.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
Rico.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, nobody wants to do that because right away you
sell yourself for a recal conviction.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Do you think that's better this new way of doing crime?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
I'm not gonna say it's better. Well, I know, is
this Listen, the streets are safer.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, what are you doing now?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I moved to different industries you now, I mean for
a while I was in the KTV business.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
What's that karaoke? Now I'm in the restaurant industry.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And what can you say about what Onion is up
to now?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
If anything, he's.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
A businessman, legitimate businessman.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I will say, yeah, he's totally legit because I know
because he works his ass off. Uh huh, you know
me in the industry he's in, you know what I mean?
Very rough, Yes, it's very rough industry he is in.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
And uh, you know what I mean, he has his
ups and downs.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Can you say what the industry is there now?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Seafood distribution?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
What do you.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
People learn from the story of like when the gangs
ran in Chinatown in the nineteen eighties and then stopped existing.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
What's the taking?
Speaker 4 (26:57):
No?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I think the Italians has always been romanticized access stretcher
in the movies and stuff, right, but really, little do
they know that the Chinese were doing their own thing too.
It's just that we're much more secretive. We didn't want
that much attention, so it's also it's a part of history.
(27:17):
We're just clarifying history and this part of what it
was Nowwach.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Everything is clean. It's great, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
So at least I'm around to talk about it, you know,
so that's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yes, well, thank you. Should I call you Cowboy or.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
CV nowadays said by coming CB, I shorten it too
much baggage.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
With the cowboy.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Well, thank you so much, CV, thank you coming on
the show.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Thank you very much. It's thank you.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
CB is a former member of the Flying Dragons. This
episode of The China Hunstan was produced by Sonia Gurwitt
and edited by Julia Barton. It was engineered by Sarah Bruguer.
Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Our music was composed
by John Sung, with additional music by Jake Gorski. Special
(28:11):
thanks to Mike Moy of Chinatown Gang Stories for connecting
me to CB. The Chinatown Staning is a production of
Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I'm Lydia Gene Copp
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.