April 20, 2020 • 23 mins
The pandemic has us all glued to our smartphones, tablets, laptops and TVs - they give us important information, vital social contact and much needed distraction. But Catherine Price (founder of Screen/Life Balance and author of How To Break Up With Your Phone) shares her tips on how to make sure our new screen habits improve our lockdown lives rather than exacerbate our problems and anxieties.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Welcome to a special set of episodes of the
Happiness Lab. The now global spread of coronavirus is affecting
all of us. This disease has brought a host of medical, economic,
and political problems, but it's also given us a ton
of uncertainty and anxiety, which are beginning to have an
(00:36):
enormous negative impact on our collective. While being but whenever
I'm confused or fearful, I remember that looking for answers
in evidence based science is always the best way to go,
and that's where I'm hoping this podcast can help. For
the past month, screens have been the lifeblood of my
social connection. They've allowed me to see my family, chat
(00:59):
with friends and colleagues, run my lab meetings, and even
conduct the podcast interviews you've heard over the past few weeks.
Screens have also been my key to entertainment, news, and
even exercise while I'm stuck inside the house. But if
I'm being honest, staring at a screen all day over
the past few weeks has also made me more depleted
(01:20):
than usual. Just yesterday, I realized I'd been sitting in
the same chair for over six straight hours of Zoom meetings,
which made my brain and my body felt kind of gross.
The lockdown has also up the amount of time I
spend looking at scary news on Twitter, or apathetically scrolling
through a sea of Netflix options, or peeking at Reddit
when I should be chatting with my husband. I started
(01:42):
to realize that surviving this lockdown with my mental health
intact requires taking a good, hard look at my own
screen time. So I decided to put a call out
to an expert, Katherine Price. Katherine is a science journalist
who wrote a book called How To Break Up with
Your Phone. Ironically enough, the only way we could connect
during the lockdown was over zoom Sweet. So once it's once,
(02:04):
you hit record, let me know and then we can
get started. I have hit record, so gatherin. I feel
like I've spent pretty much the entire last three weeks
just staring at a screen. I mean, is this just me?
Or is this something you can relate to? I certainly
can relate to it personally, and I can tell you
for sure You're not alone in terms of the general population,
because I've been hearing from lots and lots of people
(02:24):
about how they feel that their screen life balance has
gone out the window since all of our work life
is now even more on screens, and our personal life
has shifted onto screens, and our leisure time is in
large part spent on screens. So yeah, it's something everyone's
struggling with. And so you've argued that screen life balance
is important in general, but talk about why it's really
essential during this time of COVID nineteen. Well, I think
(02:45):
it's even more important to think about screen life balance
during COVID nineteen, specifically because we're spending so much time
on screens. So to be clear, I think we need
to realize that there's nothing inherently wrong about this. I
hear from a lot of people who are talking about, Oh,
I should spend less time on screens, or I should
do this. You know what we should be doing right
now with social distancing and like watching our hands, That's
(03:06):
what we should be doing when it comes to our
as screens. Don't need to be critical of ourselves or
restrictive just for the sake of being critical or restrictive.
What's really important is to ask yourself, Okay, well, since
I am spending so much time on my screens, how
can I make sure the time I am spending on
them is making me feel productive part is necessary, and
which part is actually making me feel good or connected
(03:27):
to other people, because that's the parts you want to keep.
That's the beauty of technology is that we are able
to stay connected and be productive during a time like this.
But there's also lots of uses of screens that are
making us not feel so great, like getting sucked into
endless cycles of checking the news over and over again,
or getting into social media spirals that go beyond just
kind of a pleasant distraction and more into mind numbing
(03:49):
kind of self medicating territory. I think this is really
critical because your argument isn't that it's the amount of
time we're spending on screens it's a problem. It's not
that we need to reduce our screen time generally. It's
just that we need to start paying attention to how
these screens are making us feel. Yeah, you need to
be intentional about your screen time. That's what I keep
coming back to. So I wouldn't get hung up on
the number of ours that your iPhone is telling you
(04:10):
that you've spent on it per week, because it's very
likely to be higher than normal. But I think you
instead can just ask yourself Okay, Well, which parts of
that screen time felt good and which parts didn't, And
that's the place to start to get curious about it.
And I think also it's a really useful skill to
develop that you will be able to take with you
after this, because if you start to just pay attention
(04:31):
to how you feel in the moment when you're engaging
with a particular behavior, whether it's on or office screen,
you'll be able to make more intelligent choices about just
how to spend your time. So it can actually be
just really helpful. And if you just have a little
trigger in the back of your mind to be like, huh,
how am I feeling right now? Does this feel nourishing
and good or productive or helpful? Or is this making
me feel anxious or upset or depressed or scared or
(04:52):
sad or even more of those things? And if you
do have a choice in that moment, then just simply
consider taking the other fork in that path. Yeah, I
think that's lovely. You also use this wonderful analogy in
one of your recent articles that the way we think
about screens should be kind of the way we think
about food, nutritious eating. Do you want to just explain
that analogy a bit. Yeah, I've been thinking about screen
(05:13):
time in terms of food in the sense that there's
many different types of food. So when people say, always
spend too much time on my screens, that's the same
as just saying, oh, well, I eat too much food, right,
But there's different types of food, and you also well,
in the case of food, you do need some of it,
but some of our screen time is necessary for our
careers or what have you. So I like to instead say, well,
what are your kind of food groups for screen time?
(05:33):
You know, how can you break it down to think
about which parts are the than good for you foods
that kale and the vegetables whatever, Which parts of the
total junk foods that maybe do comfort you and make
you feel better in small quantities, but then make you
feel really gross. You know, how can you actually take
care of yourself and nourish yourself with screen time with
a similar similar approach that you take towards food. And
(05:55):
for me, that's been really helpful because it's been able
to break you have a visual in my head kind
of like one of those food pergrameds of the different
types of screen time that gives me a tool with
which to just make smarter choices for myself. And I
love that analogy because I feel too. I feel like
the nutritiousness of my panic. Scrolling on Twitter is just like,
you know, that's just like the most gross thing, especially
(06:15):
if I too a ton of time. But like a
zoom call with my mom or like doing an online
yoga class with friends, like that's the kale, Like I
need more of that in my life, especially during COVID
nineteen or that's like like kill doesn't seem as pleasant
enough for what you just described. It's like, I don't know,
some kind of yeah, it's really it's like a nice
sie bowl, but yoga classes with friends, Oh my god.
(06:35):
Keena is definitely involved in like a really tasty way.
So one of the other things about noticing how we're
feeling online is that you know, what we experience online
in terms of our emotions can enter our real life too.
I mean I noticed this myself when you know, I'm
just scrolling on Twitter and I see some scary article
about some twenty year old who's caught the virus and
in the hospital. Now I'm anxious and panicked, And then
(06:57):
I walk into the room with my husband and I'm
transmitting all that anxiety and that panic to him when
you know I didn't really need to do that. And
so talk a little bit about how how the kind
of the stuff we catch online can come can become
part of our normal lives in a way that we
might not anticipate. I think we need to be very
conscious about what we're exposing ourselves to in general, because
(07:18):
just as exposing yourself to a virus can make you
physically sick, exposing yourself to stressful or anxiety producing content
can really have an effect on your mental state, and
that in turn can be transmitted to the other people
that you're self isolating with right now. And if you
do have a choice of exposing yourself to content that
makes you feel calm versus Twitter, then maybe we could
(07:43):
choose the calm content. It's kind of like a person
making a movie who's choosing where to turn their camera.
There's a lot of different things we could be choosing
to put that camera on right now, whether it's on
our screens or off of our screens, and it's up
to us to choose where that focus is going to be.
So the goal isn't just to reduce our screen time
generally or just for the sake of it. It's actually
to use our mindfulness muscles to make sure we're strategically
(08:04):
using screens in a way that's going to boost our
well being rather than hurt it. And so when we
get back from the break, I'm gonna have Catherine dive
into some more specific tips about how we can all
do that. The Happiness Lab will be right back. So
I wanted to dig into some of your specific tips
for how we can achieve some screen life balance during
(08:26):
this challenging time, because our screens aren't going away. I mean,
in some sense we need them even more now to
work and connect with the people we care about, maybe
even to just enjoy some Netflix companies. But we also
need to use all this screen time a little bit
more nutritiously. And so one of the first tips you've
mentioned before is to set up a set of goals
and principles for how we're using our screen time, almost
(08:47):
like a daily screen time budget. In my normal non
pandemic life, I like to think about screen time in
terms of a budget in the same way that I
think about money as having a budget, with the idea
being that there's lots of powerful interests. I allowed the
companies behind these apps who really want to take our
time and attention from us, because that is how they
make money. And so just as you'd protect your actual
money from thieves, you should protect your time and attention
(09:10):
from people who want to take it from you. But
right now, I think that there's an extra element of
necessity here because it's having such an emotional impact on you.
For my own screen time, I've been thinking about it
in terms of three c's, the consumption, creation, and connection.
So consumption being just taking stuff in that could be
(09:30):
reading the news, which for me is never a good idea,
or watching something or reading something from someone else. And
then creation, what can you actually create? And for that
you know, some people may be like, I don't have
any energy for creation. You have to be kidding me,
Like that is ridiculous to even suggest that I create
something during such a stressful time. But there are other people,
myself included, for which that's actually like a self soothing mechanism,
(09:51):
Like my brain needs to do something, so if I
can do something creative, it makes me feel better. And
then connection I think everyone can relate to because we're
all desperate for human connection, right now, and so if
you're using your screen in a way that's bringing you
closer to someone else in a way that feels good,
I think that's a beautiful use of screens. I love
these tips for figuring out which of the different parts
you're using and maybe to even balance them over time,
(10:12):
like because I could imagine, even for me the connection part,
if I do that too much, you know, it gets
to kind of be a lot. You know, even the
most healthy stuff, even like in excess, can be a
little bit too much. I think it's interesting to realize,
like you just pointed out, that you can have something
positive in excess. You know, there's so many like zoom
happy hours happening now or my husband and our social
(10:32):
calendar is like packed because got all these people stranded
at home with this desire to connect. So we've been
trying to make a point of actually deliberately taking breaks
from our screens. For example, just going for a socially
isolated walk without your phone and just trying to be
present in whatever surroundings you're in, just to take a
(10:54):
break from this subconscious feeling of needing to respond and
be available. One thing I really love is like taking
a whole night where you turn off all of your
screens and actually just be with the people that you're with.
You might decide that maybe you don't want to do
like full on no screens at all, Maybe you want
to put away your individual devices and do something together
(11:14):
like watch a movie where everyone is actually sitting together
watching the movie instead of everyone checking Twitter while watching
the movie, which are very different experiences. And I personally
highly recommend not checking the news after a certain point
each night. If you're exposing yourself to endless stories about
coronavirus right before bed, of course you're not going to
sleep well. And also you can't do anything with that information.
(11:36):
It's not going to change any behavior view that you
would have had from six pm to midnight. I am
willing to bet this has been a huge one for me.
Just during the time of coronavirus. I finally started doing
the tip that I've given to everyone, which is to
put your phone to bed at a certain time. My
phone now goes to bed around seven thirty, where I
shut it off and stick it away, and I only
do physical stuff like read physical books or do yoga
(11:57):
or whatever. And it's been huge from my sleep, Like
I can't even express how much better my sleep has been,
just like not checking my phone right before I go
to bed. I think that's an interesting point and consequence
of what we're living through right now is that this
contrast between screen activities and off screen activities is becoming
very dramatic. It's really clarifying things to people, I think,
(12:19):
because you suddenly realize there's a real difference in how
you feel doing one versus the other. And there's nothing
wrong with reading a book on your kindler your phone.
But it's interesting that because we're having such huge exposure
to screen time right now, it's becoming easier to see
the difference in how offscreen things make us feel. And
I think it's really important to recognize that we're not
(12:39):
just heads on top of bodies, you know. We actually
are creatures who have physical bodies also, and those bodies
need to be nurtured, you know, which is as simple
as like taking a bath. Like I haven't taken a
bath and I don't know how long, and I've dive
in a baths up the other day and I'm like,
where's this been my whole life? Like this is delightful.
(13:00):
I love that tip and in your idea of taking
the bath when you haven't taken one in a long
time leads me to one of your other tips, which
I love, which is to explicitly write down a list
of non screen time activities that you actually love to
do so that you'll remember them when the urge to
kind of pop on the screen mindlessly comes up. Yeah,
I strongly encourage that people take a few minutes to
write down a list of non screen activities that make
(13:23):
them feel good. And the reason I say that is
because when we're stressed out, the part of our brain
that's in charge of rational decision making, the prefrontal cortex,
goes out the window. It's like see you later, like
exactly the moment when you need it the most, and
instead we tend to go to things that provide quick fixes. So,
whether that's checking the news, even though it doesn't make
you feel good, it's still a quick fix of information,
(13:43):
or getting a drink, or doing something that's not really
that good for yourself and you know it's not good
for you, but you don't really have the ability in
that moment of stress to make a rational decision. So
you want to make it as easy as possible to
choose activities that actually are good for you, or that
feel good or that nourish you. And one of the
best ways to do that is just make a list
of activities ahead of time, so that when you do
(14:04):
have a moment of downtime, instead of instinctively reaching for
your phone, which for many of us is that quick fix,
you have alternatives at the ready. So it could be
taking a bath, it could be listening to a podcast, which, yeah,
that would be using your phone, but it's for a
different purpose, doing a bit of stretching or meditation. I mean,
the choices are endless, and it's very up to the
particular person. There's no right answer here. I love this
(14:25):
tip because that if I look at my own social
media use, it tends to be just in exactly those
moments where it's like I finished some other task, I
have this kind of twinge of like boredom or I'm
not sure what to do next, and I'm like, that's
when I pull out Twitter. You know, That's when I
do a quick check. And there's so many other things
I would enjoy more than doing that quick check. It's
just the Twitter feels like a habit. It feels like
this really low startup cost, but it's a huge opportunity
(14:48):
cost of other stuff in my life that I could
be doing that would make me feel better. There is
a huge opportunity cost. I think we don't often really
recognize that. Because your time is finite and it's zero sum,
you can't spend time or your attention on two things
at once. So for every moment that you're spending in
the black hole of Twitter, you're not spending on something else.
And I think it's also a great opportunity for people
(15:08):
to experience with some of the general screen balance, kind
of like hygiene tips that I and others always recommend,
but that can be hard to kind of motivate to
do in your daily life. Like if you know that
you're having a habit of just going on Twitter, and
you're really aware right now that that's making you feel bad,
maybe this is the time to experiment with taking Twitter
off your phone for a couple of days. I really
(15:28):
recommend people take news apps off their phones right now.
I mean, why why have those on your phones? You
won't forget to check the news. You just won't forget
to check the news right now. Then if you take
it off of your phone, you're essentially doing what psychiatrists
would call reducing your ease of access to the problematic substance.
So of course, if you have access to Twitter and
(15:49):
Facebook and Instagram and sixteen different news sources on your
phone and you're stressed out, you're going to go to
those things. Another thing I know you've talked about is
that the screen life balance that we need in our
lives isn't just for us, you know, the adults in
our family. We also need to think about how to
balance screen time for our kids too. Write and I
don't want to sound like some schoolmarm. I mean, my
own child is literally watching Daniel Tiger as we were
(16:10):
having this conversation because it's a rainy day. But I
also thinks, you know, there's just a lot of other
stuff to do. I mean, you can get very creative
about it, especially with little kids. Like we've been looking
for worms a lot, Laurie. We've been going on worm
hunts and we just go out and she pulls up
moss and tries to find worms. And then that's been
entertaining her for quite a long time. So I think
(16:31):
a lot of parents are really stressed out about how
their kids are possibly going to quote unquote catch up
in school once they go back to school. I think
it's a really interesting concern because if you think critically
about what typically happens in school and what is there
is not accomplished, or how much time has wasted just
trying to manage classrooms, there's a lot of time that's
(16:52):
not actually used that efficiently. What do you actually want
them to be able to do or have learned at
the end of this pandemic that you think they're going
to miss in school, And if you start from that outcome,
then you can come up with creative ways to achieve
the same results, whether it's on or off a screen.
So I personally, I think it's interesting that everyone's kind
of going to, let's just lecture to kids online and
(17:14):
that just seems so boring and kind of fruitless, as
opposed to saying, okay, well, maybe you could say these
are the skills or the types of questions I want
kids to be able to answer at the end of
this time, and giving them a bit more freedom and
independence to figure out ways to accomplish that knowledge or
achieve that knowledge. But it sounds like one of the
main tips is the same as it is for adults,
which is it we need to be mindful of how
(17:35):
our screen time and the rules around screen time are
making us feel. You know, if it's making us feel
kind of good, then that's okay. But if it's making
us feel judged and feel overwhelmed and like we're a
bad parent, then we need to listen to that too. Yes,
I think the same rules apply for kids as they
do with adults, which is that it's not necessarily the
amount of screen time that matters. It's what we're doing
with it, what we're getting out of it, and how
(17:57):
it's making us feel. So we should be intentional about
our children's screen time and the same way that we
are for our own. So we should not just default
to screens for the sake of defaulting to screens, but
actually ask is that useful? Is it giving the kids
something is and making them feel good? What's the opportunity
cost of all the time on the screen? I also
always recommend actually having a conversation with your child. If
(18:17):
they're older than like five, you actually can have a
conversation about this and say, let's figure out what we
use our screens for. Let's come up with a list
of ideas for offscreen activities that we could do together
or individually, involve them in that process, and then give
them a bit more of a sense of control over
figuring out a schedule that works for them, because I
think a lot of the tension comes from parents trying
(18:38):
to control the kids without allowing the kids to have
any kind of input into it. So I think making
into a family conversation can be really helpful, and again
goes to the idea that there is an opportunity here
to develop some structures and templates for conversations that really
can be helpful after this passes, after we go back
to normal, both in terms of children's screen time and parents'
screen time, and listening to what your kids have to
(18:59):
say about you too. I think that's part of the
final tip I wanted to get into, which is your
idea that we should do as much as we can
right now to set boundaries on the kind of information
we're consuming, especially the stuff that we don't enjoy consuming
that much. So you gave this one wonderful concrete suggestion
about shutting off notifications and maybe taking apps off your
phone to create boundaries, But are there other ways we
(19:21):
can do it? Especially for those of us who are
listening who might be kind of hesitant to take Twitter
and Facebook off their phone. Well, first of all, I
would say you can do it, guys, like you could
literally delete that app and then a thirty seconds say
that woman I just listened to is an idiot. I
want it back on my phone, and just put it
back on, no one stopping you. So just get curious
about it, experiments, see what it's like, and it could
(19:41):
differ by the day. But I think in general we
need boundaries in all areas of our life right now
because so many of us are working from home, so
I don't have any boundaries between work and normal life.
We don't have any boundaries between kidcare and our own
personal time. No boundaries. There's no boundaries, no boundaries between
the news, no boundaries with screens. We're just like in
the state of uncertainty and anxiety with no boundaries. And
(20:04):
when you think about it in that context, it makes
sense that a lot of us are feeling pretty crazy
right now. I think having as a guiding principle as
you think about your life, the idea of what boundaries
would make me feel better? How could I create lines
and divisions between these parts of my life. But for example,
figuring out how you can create a ritual that shows
(20:24):
that you're starting your workday versus ending your workday. Rituals
that mark when you are not interacting with screens or
in what ways, like maybe you have if you have
multiple devices, maybe you use one for one purpose and
then another for another purpose. Or maybe don't check your
phone your news from your phone, but you check it
from the desktop. Don't answer emails from your phone because
again that's really not efficient, instead do that from your computer.
(20:49):
Get actual physical distance between things, so, for example, create
a charging station for your phone that is not in
your bedroom so that you're not instinctively reaching for your
phone right before a bed and going into a Twitter spiral.
If you're worried about people being able to call you,
you can always create a group of VIP contacts and
then turn the do not disturb on in general, but
(21:10):
allow those calls to come in and turn your ringer on.
And now you've created a way to keep a physical
boundary between yourself and your phone. But you're not worried
about missing a call from somebody that you want to
hear from. But just keep in mind, the idea of
which parts of your life seem to be blending together
in ways that don't feel healthy, and then what rituals
or practices could you experiment with them might enable you
(21:32):
to feel a bit more organized in your mental world.
It's awesome, And so if your listeners want to hear
more tips, you've actually set up a resource that they
can go to during this time of COVID nineteen. Right. Yeah,
I have a website, screenlife balance dot com, and you
can sign up from my newsletter and I've basically been
trying to send out newsletters once or twice a week
that contain suggestions for some of these things how to
(21:53):
maintain screenlife balance and sanity during this time. And I've
really been trying to make them the newsletters as much
as I can, like self contain, so it's not just
another list of thirty five links that you now feel
that you have to click on and just seeing the
email stresses you out, but really trying to help people
think more intentionally about their screen time in ways that
(22:13):
will make them feel a little bit more calm and
less anxious and maybe even inspired during this time. I,
for one, plan to take Catherine's advice to heart. I've
already tried to institute a few new lockdown habits to
help balance my technology time. For me, that's been online
yoga with friends, dinner with my family over Zoom, and
an awesome podcast every morning. I've also tried to find
(22:36):
a few more screen free things that feel good, taking
a few minutes to stare at the dogwood trees outside
my house and playing some games in real life with
my husband. I hope that you'll be able to find
a bit more screen life balance during this challenging time,
and I hope that at least one of your feel
good screen time choices will be to come back for
the next episode of The Happiness Lab with me, Doctor
(22:59):
Laurie Sanders. The Happiness Lab is a Pushkin podcast. It's
co written and produced by Ryan Dilley and mastered by
Evan Fiola. Our original music is written by Zachary Silver.
Special thanks to Ben Davis, Heather Fame, Carly mcgliori, Julia Barton,
Neil LaBelle, Jacob Weisberg, and the rest of the Pushkin crew.
Pushkin. Welcome to a special set of episodes of the
Happiness Lab. The now global spread of coronavirus is affecting
all of us. This disease has brought a host of medical, economic,
and political problems, but it's also given us a ton
of uncertainty and anxiety, which are beginning to have an
(00:36):
enormous negative impact on our collective. While being but whenever
I'm confused or fearful, I remember that looking for answers
in evidence based science is always the best way to go,
and that's where I'm hoping this podcast can help. For
the past month, screens have been the lifeblood of my
social connection. They've allowed me to see my family, chat
(00:59):
with friends and colleagues, run my lab meetings, and even
conduct the podcast interviews you've heard over the past few weeks.
Screens have also been my key to entertainment, news, and
even exercise while I'm stuck inside the house. But if
I'm being honest, staring at a screen all day over
the past few weeks has also made me more depleted
(01:20):
than usual. Just yesterday, I realized I'd been sitting in
the same chair for over six straight hours of Zoom meetings,
which made my brain and my body felt kind of gross.
The lockdown has also up the amount of time I
spend looking at scary news on Twitter, or apathetically scrolling
through a sea of Netflix options, or peeking at Reddit
when I should be chatting with my husband. I started
(01:42):
to realize that surviving this lockdown with my mental health
intact requires taking a good, hard look at my own
screen time. So I decided to put a call out
to an expert, Katherine Price. Katherine is a science journalist
who wrote a book called How To Break Up with
Your Phone. Ironically enough, the only way we could connect
during the lockdown was over zoom Sweet. So once it's once,
(02:04):
you hit record, let me know and then we can
get started. I have hit record, so gatherin. I feel
like I've spent pretty much the entire last three weeks
just staring at a screen. I mean, is this just me?
Or is this something you can relate to? I certainly
can relate to it personally, and I can tell you
for sure You're not alone in terms of the general population,
because I've been hearing from lots and lots of people
(02:24):
about how they feel that their screen life balance has
gone out the window since all of our work life
is now even more on screens, and our personal life
has shifted onto screens, and our leisure time is in
large part spent on screens. So yeah, it's something everyone's
struggling with. And so you've argued that screen life balance
is important in general, but talk about why it's really
essential during this time of COVID nineteen. Well, I think
(02:45):
it's even more important to think about screen life balance
during COVID nineteen, specifically because we're spending so much time
on screens. So to be clear, I think we need
to realize that there's nothing inherently wrong about this. I
hear from a lot of people who are talking about, Oh,
I should spend less time on screens, or I should
do this. You know what we should be doing right
now with social distancing and like watching our hands, That's
(03:06):
what we should be doing when it comes to our
as screens. Don't need to be critical of ourselves or
restrictive just for the sake of being critical or restrictive.
What's really important is to ask yourself, Okay, well, since
I am spending so much time on my screens, how
can I make sure the time I am spending on
them is making me feel productive part is necessary, and
which part is actually making me feel good or connected
(03:27):
to other people, because that's the parts you want to keep.
That's the beauty of technology is that we are able
to stay connected and be productive during a time like this.
But there's also lots of uses of screens that are
making us not feel so great, like getting sucked into
endless cycles of checking the news over and over again,
or getting into social media spirals that go beyond just
kind of a pleasant distraction and more into mind numbing
(03:49):
kind of self medicating territory. I think this is really
critical because your argument isn't that it's the amount of
time we're spending on screens it's a problem. It's not
that we need to reduce our screen time generally. It's
just that we need to start paying attention to how
these screens are making us feel. Yeah, you need to
be intentional about your screen time. That's what I keep
coming back to. So I wouldn't get hung up on
the number of ours that your iPhone is telling you
(04:10):
that you've spent on it per week, because it's very
likely to be higher than normal. But I think you
instead can just ask yourself Okay, Well, which parts of
that screen time felt good and which parts didn't, And
that's the place to start to get curious about it.
And I think also it's a really useful skill to
develop that you will be able to take with you
after this, because if you start to just pay attention
(04:31):
to how you feel in the moment when you're engaging
with a particular behavior, whether it's on or office screen,
you'll be able to make more intelligent choices about just
how to spend your time. So it can actually be
just really helpful. And if you just have a little
trigger in the back of your mind to be like, huh,
how am I feeling right now? Does this feel nourishing
and good or productive or helpful? Or is this making
me feel anxious or upset or depressed or scared or
(04:52):
sad or even more of those things? And if you
do have a choice in that moment, then just simply
consider taking the other fork in that path. Yeah, I
think that's lovely. You also use this wonderful analogy in
one of your recent articles that the way we think
about screens should be kind of the way we think
about food, nutritious eating. Do you want to just explain
that analogy a bit. Yeah, I've been thinking about screen
(05:13):
time in terms of food in the sense that there's
many different types of food. So when people say, always
spend too much time on my screens, that's the same
as just saying, oh, well, I eat too much food, right,
But there's different types of food, and you also well,
in the case of food, you do need some of it,
but some of our screen time is necessary for our
careers or what have you. So I like to instead say, well,
what are your kind of food groups for screen time?
(05:33):
You know, how can you break it down to think
about which parts are the than good for you foods
that kale and the vegetables whatever, Which parts of the
total junk foods that maybe do comfort you and make
you feel better in small quantities, but then make you
feel really gross. You know, how can you actually take
care of yourself and nourish yourself with screen time with
a similar similar approach that you take towards food. And
(05:55):
for me, that's been really helpful because it's been able
to break you have a visual in my head kind
of like one of those food pergrameds of the different
types of screen time that gives me a tool with
which to just make smarter choices for myself. And I
love that analogy because I feel too. I feel like
the nutritiousness of my panic. Scrolling on Twitter is just like,
you know, that's just like the most gross thing, especially
(06:15):
if I too a ton of time. But like a
zoom call with my mom or like doing an online
yoga class with friends, like that's the kale, Like I
need more of that in my life, especially during COVID
nineteen or that's like like kill doesn't seem as pleasant
enough for what you just described. It's like, I don't know,
some kind of yeah, it's really it's like a nice
sie bowl, but yoga classes with friends, Oh my god.
(06:35):
Keena is definitely involved in like a really tasty way.
So one of the other things about noticing how we're
feeling online is that you know, what we experience online
in terms of our emotions can enter our real life too.
I mean I noticed this myself when you know, I'm
just scrolling on Twitter and I see some scary article
about some twenty year old who's caught the virus and
in the hospital. Now I'm anxious and panicked, And then
(06:57):
I walk into the room with my husband and I'm
transmitting all that anxiety and that panic to him when
you know I didn't really need to do that. And
so talk a little bit about how how the kind
of the stuff we catch online can come can become
part of our normal lives in a way that we
might not anticipate. I think we need to be very
conscious about what we're exposing ourselves to in general, because
(07:18):
just as exposing yourself to a virus can make you
physically sick, exposing yourself to stressful or anxiety producing content
can really have an effect on your mental state, and
that in turn can be transmitted to the other people
that you're self isolating with right now. And if you
do have a choice of exposing yourself to content that
makes you feel calm versus Twitter, then maybe we could
(07:43):
choose the calm content. It's kind of like a person
making a movie who's choosing where to turn their camera.
There's a lot of different things we could be choosing
to put that camera on right now, whether it's on
our screens or off of our screens, and it's up
to us to choose where that focus is going to be.
So the goal isn't just to reduce our screen time
generally or just for the sake of it. It's actually
to use our mindfulness muscles to make sure we're strategically
(08:04):
using screens in a way that's going to boost our
well being rather than hurt it. And so when we
get back from the break, I'm gonna have Catherine dive
into some more specific tips about how we can all
do that. The Happiness Lab will be right back. So
I wanted to dig into some of your specific tips
for how we can achieve some screen life balance during
(08:26):
this challenging time, because our screens aren't going away. I mean,
in some sense we need them even more now to
work and connect with the people we care about, maybe
even to just enjoy some Netflix companies. But we also
need to use all this screen time a little bit
more nutritiously. And so one of the first tips you've
mentioned before is to set up a set of goals
and principles for how we're using our screen time, almost
(08:47):
like a daily screen time budget. In my normal non
pandemic life, I like to think about screen time in
terms of a budget in the same way that I
think about money as having a budget, with the idea
being that there's lots of powerful interests. I allowed the
companies behind these apps who really want to take our
time and attention from us, because that is how they
make money. And so just as you'd protect your actual
money from thieves, you should protect your time and attention
(09:10):
from people who want to take it from you. But
right now, I think that there's an extra element of
necessity here because it's having such an emotional impact on you.
For my own screen time, I've been thinking about it
in terms of three c's, the consumption, creation, and connection.
So consumption being just taking stuff in that could be
(09:30):
reading the news, which for me is never a good idea,
or watching something or reading something from someone else. And
then creation, what can you actually create? And for that
you know, some people may be like, I don't have
any energy for creation. You have to be kidding me,
Like that is ridiculous to even suggest that I create
something during such a stressful time. But there are other people,
myself included, for which that's actually like a self soothing mechanism,
(09:51):
Like my brain needs to do something, so if I
can do something creative, it makes me feel better. And
then connection I think everyone can relate to because we're
all desperate for human connection, right now, and so if
you're using your screen in a way that's bringing you
closer to someone else in a way that feels good,
I think that's a beautiful use of screens. I love
these tips for figuring out which of the different parts
you're using and maybe to even balance them over time,
(10:12):
like because I could imagine, even for me the connection part,
if I do that too much, you know, it gets
to kind of be a lot. You know, even the
most healthy stuff, even like in excess, can be a
little bit too much. I think it's interesting to realize,
like you just pointed out, that you can have something
positive in excess. You know, there's so many like zoom
happy hours happening now or my husband and our social
(10:32):
calendar is like packed because got all these people stranded
at home with this desire to connect. So we've been
trying to make a point of actually deliberately taking breaks
from our screens. For example, just going for a socially
isolated walk without your phone and just trying to be
present in whatever surroundings you're in, just to take a
(10:54):
break from this subconscious feeling of needing to respond and
be available. One thing I really love is like taking
a whole night where you turn off all of your
screens and actually just be with the people that you're with.
You might decide that maybe you don't want to do
like full on no screens at all, Maybe you want
to put away your individual devices and do something together
(11:14):
like watch a movie where everyone is actually sitting together
watching the movie instead of everyone checking Twitter while watching
the movie, which are very different experiences. And I personally
highly recommend not checking the news after a certain point
each night. If you're exposing yourself to endless stories about
coronavirus right before bed, of course you're not going to
sleep well. And also you can't do anything with that information.
(11:36):
It's not going to change any behavior view that you
would have had from six pm to midnight. I am
willing to bet this has been a huge one for me.
Just during the time of coronavirus. I finally started doing
the tip that I've given to everyone, which is to
put your phone to bed at a certain time. My
phone now goes to bed around seven thirty, where I
shut it off and stick it away, and I only
do physical stuff like read physical books or do yoga
(11:57):
or whatever. And it's been huge from my sleep, Like
I can't even express how much better my sleep has been,
just like not checking my phone right before I go
to bed. I think that's an interesting point and consequence
of what we're living through right now is that this
contrast between screen activities and off screen activities is becoming
very dramatic. It's really clarifying things to people, I think,
(12:19):
because you suddenly realize there's a real difference in how
you feel doing one versus the other. And there's nothing
wrong with reading a book on your kindler your phone.
But it's interesting that because we're having such huge exposure
to screen time right now, it's becoming easier to see
the difference in how offscreen things make us feel. And
I think it's really important to recognize that we're not
(12:39):
just heads on top of bodies, you know. We actually
are creatures who have physical bodies also, and those bodies
need to be nurtured, you know, which is as simple
as like taking a bath. Like I haven't taken a
bath and I don't know how long, and I've dive
in a baths up the other day and I'm like,
where's this been my whole life? Like this is delightful.
(13:00):
I love that tip and in your idea of taking
the bath when you haven't taken one in a long
time leads me to one of your other tips, which
I love, which is to explicitly write down a list
of non screen time activities that you actually love to
do so that you'll remember them when the urge to
kind of pop on the screen mindlessly comes up. Yeah,
I strongly encourage that people take a few minutes to
write down a list of non screen activities that make
(13:23):
them feel good. And the reason I say that is
because when we're stressed out, the part of our brain
that's in charge of rational decision making, the prefrontal cortex,
goes out the window. It's like see you later, like
exactly the moment when you need it the most, and
instead we tend to go to things that provide quick fixes. So,
whether that's checking the news, even though it doesn't make
you feel good, it's still a quick fix of information,
(13:43):
or getting a drink, or doing something that's not really
that good for yourself and you know it's not good
for you, but you don't really have the ability in
that moment of stress to make a rational decision. So
you want to make it as easy as possible to
choose activities that actually are good for you, or that
feel good or that nourish you. And one of the
best ways to do that is just make a list
of activities ahead of time, so that when you do
(14:04):
have a moment of downtime, instead of instinctively reaching for
your phone, which for many of us is that quick fix,
you have alternatives at the ready. So it could be
taking a bath, it could be listening to a podcast, which, yeah,
that would be using your phone, but it's for a
different purpose, doing a bit of stretching or meditation. I mean,
the choices are endless, and it's very up to the
particular person. There's no right answer here. I love this
(14:25):
tip because that if I look at my own social
media use, it tends to be just in exactly those
moments where it's like I finished some other task, I
have this kind of twinge of like boredom or I'm
not sure what to do next, and I'm like, that's
when I pull out Twitter. You know, That's when I
do a quick check. And there's so many other things
I would enjoy more than doing that quick check. It's
just the Twitter feels like a habit. It feels like
this really low startup cost, but it's a huge opportunity
(14:48):
cost of other stuff in my life that I could
be doing that would make me feel better. There is
a huge opportunity cost. I think we don't often really
recognize that. Because your time is finite and it's zero sum,
you can't spend time or your attention on two things
at once. So for every moment that you're spending in
the black hole of Twitter, you're not spending on something else.
And I think it's also a great opportunity for people
(15:08):
to experience with some of the general screen balance, kind
of like hygiene tips that I and others always recommend,
but that can be hard to kind of motivate to
do in your daily life. Like if you know that
you're having a habit of just going on Twitter, and
you're really aware right now that that's making you feel bad,
maybe this is the time to experiment with taking Twitter
off your phone for a couple of days. I really
(15:28):
recommend people take news apps off their phones right now.
I mean, why why have those on your phones? You
won't forget to check the news. You just won't forget
to check the news right now. Then if you take
it off of your phone, you're essentially doing what psychiatrists
would call reducing your ease of access to the problematic substance.
So of course, if you have access to Twitter and
(15:49):
Facebook and Instagram and sixteen different news sources on your
phone and you're stressed out, you're going to go to
those things. Another thing I know you've talked about is
that the screen life balance that we need in our
lives isn't just for us, you know, the adults in
our family. We also need to think about how to
balance screen time for our kids too. Write and I
don't want to sound like some schoolmarm. I mean, my
own child is literally watching Daniel Tiger as we were
(16:10):
having this conversation because it's a rainy day. But I
also thinks, you know, there's just a lot of other
stuff to do. I mean, you can get very creative
about it, especially with little kids. Like we've been looking
for worms a lot, Laurie. We've been going on worm
hunts and we just go out and she pulls up
moss and tries to find worms. And then that's been
entertaining her for quite a long time. So I think
(16:31):
a lot of parents are really stressed out about how
their kids are possibly going to quote unquote catch up
in school once they go back to school. I think
it's a really interesting concern because if you think critically
about what typically happens in school and what is there
is not accomplished, or how much time has wasted just
trying to manage classrooms, there's a lot of time that's
(16:52):
not actually used that efficiently. What do you actually want
them to be able to do or have learned at
the end of this pandemic that you think they're going
to miss in school, And if you start from that outcome,
then you can come up with creative ways to achieve
the same results, whether it's on or off a screen.
So I personally, I think it's interesting that everyone's kind
of going to, let's just lecture to kids online and
(17:14):
that just seems so boring and kind of fruitless, as
opposed to saying, okay, well, maybe you could say these
are the skills or the types of questions I want
kids to be able to answer at the end of
this time, and giving them a bit more freedom and
independence to figure out ways to accomplish that knowledge or
achieve that knowledge. But it sounds like one of the
main tips is the same as it is for adults,
which is it we need to be mindful of how
(17:35):
our screen time and the rules around screen time are
making us feel. You know, if it's making us feel
kind of good, then that's okay. But if it's making
us feel judged and feel overwhelmed and like we're a
bad parent, then we need to listen to that too. Yes,
I think the same rules apply for kids as they
do with adults, which is that it's not necessarily the
amount of screen time that matters. It's what we're doing
with it, what we're getting out of it, and how
(17:57):
it's making us feel. So we should be intentional about
our children's screen time and the same way that we
are for our own. So we should not just default
to screens for the sake of defaulting to screens, but
actually ask is that useful? Is it giving the kids
something is and making them feel good? What's the opportunity
cost of all the time on the screen? I also
always recommend actually having a conversation with your child. If
(18:17):
they're older than like five, you actually can have a
conversation about this and say, let's figure out what we
use our screens for. Let's come up with a list
of ideas for offscreen activities that we could do together
or individually, involve them in that process, and then give
them a bit more of a sense of control over
figuring out a schedule that works for them, because I
think a lot of the tension comes from parents trying
(18:38):
to control the kids without allowing the kids to have
any kind of input into it. So I think making
into a family conversation can be really helpful, and again
goes to the idea that there is an opportunity here
to develop some structures and templates for conversations that really
can be helpful after this passes, after we go back
to normal, both in terms of children's screen time and parents'
screen time, and listening to what your kids have to
(18:59):
say about you too. I think that's part of the
final tip I wanted to get into, which is your
idea that we should do as much as we can
right now to set boundaries on the kind of information
we're consuming, especially the stuff that we don't enjoy consuming
that much. So you gave this one wonderful concrete suggestion
about shutting off notifications and maybe taking apps off your
phone to create boundaries, But are there other ways we
(19:21):
can do it? Especially for those of us who are
listening who might be kind of hesitant to take Twitter
and Facebook off their phone. Well, first of all, I
would say you can do it, guys, like you could
literally delete that app and then a thirty seconds say
that woman I just listened to is an idiot. I
want it back on my phone, and just put it
back on, no one stopping you. So just get curious
about it, experiments, see what it's like, and it could
(19:41):
differ by the day. But I think in general we
need boundaries in all areas of our life right now
because so many of us are working from home, so
I don't have any boundaries between work and normal life.
We don't have any boundaries between kidcare and our own
personal time. No boundaries. There's no boundaries, no boundaries between
the news, no boundaries with screens. We're just like in
the state of uncertainty and anxiety with no boundaries. And
(20:04):
when you think about it in that context, it makes
sense that a lot of us are feeling pretty crazy
right now. I think having as a guiding principle as
you think about your life, the idea of what boundaries
would make me feel better? How could I create lines
and divisions between these parts of my life. But for example,
figuring out how you can create a ritual that shows
(20:24):
that you're starting your workday versus ending your workday. Rituals
that mark when you are not interacting with screens or
in what ways, like maybe you have if you have
multiple devices, maybe you use one for one purpose and
then another for another purpose. Or maybe don't check your
phone your news from your phone, but you check it
from the desktop. Don't answer emails from your phone because
again that's really not efficient, instead do that from your computer.
(20:49):
Get actual physical distance between things, so, for example, create
a charging station for your phone that is not in
your bedroom so that you're not instinctively reaching for your
phone right before a bed and going into a Twitter spiral.
If you're worried about people being able to call you,
you can always create a group of VIP contacts and
then turn the do not disturb on in general, but
(21:10):
allow those calls to come in and turn your ringer on.
And now you've created a way to keep a physical
boundary between yourself and your phone. But you're not worried
about missing a call from somebody that you want to
hear from. But just keep in mind, the idea of
which parts of your life seem to be blending together
in ways that don't feel healthy, and then what rituals
or practices could you experiment with them might enable you
(21:32):
to feel a bit more organized in your mental world.
It's awesome, And so if your listeners want to hear
more tips, you've actually set up a resource that they
can go to during this time of COVID nineteen. Right. Yeah,
I have a website, screenlife balance dot com, and you
can sign up from my newsletter and I've basically been
trying to send out newsletters once or twice a week
that contain suggestions for some of these things how to
(21:53):
maintain screenlife balance and sanity during this time. And I've
really been trying to make them the newsletters as much
as I can, like self contain, so it's not just
another list of thirty five links that you now feel
that you have to click on and just seeing the
email stresses you out, but really trying to help people
think more intentionally about their screen time in ways that
(22:13):
will make them feel a little bit more calm and
less anxious and maybe even inspired during this time. I,
for one, plan to take Catherine's advice to heart. I've
already tried to institute a few new lockdown habits to
help balance my technology time. For me, that's been online
yoga with friends, dinner with my family over Zoom, and
an awesome podcast every morning. I've also tried to find
(22:36):
a few more screen free things that feel good, taking
a few minutes to stare at the dogwood trees outside
my house and playing some games in real life with
my husband. I hope that you'll be able to find
a bit more screen life balance during this challenging time,
and I hope that at least one of your feel
good screen time choices will be to come back for
the next episode of The Happiness Lab with me, Doctor
(22:59):
Laurie Sanders. The Happiness Lab is a Pushkin podcast. It's
co written and produced by Ryan Dilley and mastered by
Evan Fiola. Our original music is written by Zachary Silver.
Special thanks to Ben Davis, Heather Fame, Carly mcgliori, Julia Barton,
Neil LaBelle, Jacob Weisberg, and the rest of the Pushkin crew.
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