May 12, 2025 • 38 mins
Nordic countries are known to be happy - so should we all raise our children like the Scandinavians do? British parent Helen Russell moved to Denmark and was shocked that Danish children play outside in all weathers; are given sharp tools and they're shown how to light matches.
In her book The Danish Secret to Happy Kids: How the Viking Way of Raising Children Makes Them Happier, Healthier, and More Independent, Helen explains why play, risk and independence are the cornerstones of "viking" parenting.
This series on parenting coincides with Dr Laurie's new free online class, The Science of Wellbeing for Parents which is available now at Coursera.org. You can sign up at drlauriesantos.com/parents.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. It's no secret that Nordic countries have very high
levels of well being. Ever since the World Happiness Report
launched their famous country happiness rankings back in twenty twelve,
Scandinavian countries have consistently dominated the competition. In fact, Finland
(00:36):
and Denmark have claimed the top spots for an impressive
seven years running. The US and UK, by contrast, they
haven't even broken into the top ten. So what's behind
this Nordic happiness advantage. Journalist Helen Russell believes it starts
in childhood.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's not an accident that people from the Nordic countries
have voted the happiest in the world year after year.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
This is how they are raised. If you're a fan
of The Happiness Lab, you might remember Helen from a
previous episode entitled Move to Your Happy Place. I asked
Helen to return for this special series on parenting because
she is travel a rather circuitous path towards a happier
family life.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So I am London born and bred and my husband
got a job at Lego in Denmark and we had
no intention of ever leaving London, but Denmark kept being
voted the happiest country in the world, and I kind
of wondered, what was it all about? Could it be
that beer, bacon, Danish pastries really made you that happy?
So I decided I would give it a year, investigating
the Danish happiness phenomenon firsthand, looking at different areas of
(01:34):
Danish living to see if any of them made me happier,
and spoiler alert, it sort of did. And I ended
up staying not one year, but nearly twelve in the end,
and parenting a very loud mini redhead and surprise twins.
So life changed in ways I didn't expect at all,
But I did learn that Viking children grow up happier
and healthier and more independent. We bought a home, our
(01:56):
first home together, in the Danish countryside, in a very
Danish neighborhood, so yeah, really getting under the skin of
being part of the groups and clubs and associations, and
sending our kids into Danish childcare, really understanding what it
means to live danishly, and then really looking throughout the
other Nordic countries of the things that they do that
are very similar and very different to how I think
we do it in the.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Rest of the world. Helen's now the author of the
Deaner's Secret to Happy Kids, how the Viking way of
raising children makes them happier, healthier, and more independent. I
wanted to chat with Helen about why Nordic parenting is
so much less stressful than parenting in the US. One
of the big things you talk about is being really different.
Concerns this idea of trust in Denmark, which seems different
in the US and the UK. You talked in your
(02:38):
book about this idea of tillid. What does that word
mean and why is it so important in Denmark? So
this is this magical word. It's a mixture of trust
and faith, and really the whole of Danish society is
built around this. You have to have trust in the
people around you that they will also behave well and
that everyone will contribute their fair share, and then you
have to kind of have a bit of faith that
it will all turn out okay. So things like this
(03:01):
famous idea of Danes leaving their babies to nap outside
in their prams during the day while they pop into
a cafe for lunch or go for a coffee or
go for a swimming And I've seen once and there
is this trust that no harm will come to them.
There's a faith that the whole community will rally round
so that whoever the adult is in a certain situation
will have eyes on the children in their sphere around them.
(03:22):
And as a parent, where you can feel so alone
and so isolated and so terrified, frankly, a lot of
the time, that really helped, because you sort of have
the headspace to be happy and relaxed if you have
this trust and faith that it's kind of going to
be okay and that most people are not out to
get you, that people have got your back. And that
kind of trust seems to extend to how parents think
about kids and what they're capable of. How is this
(03:45):
different in terms of how Danish parents trust kids than
the kind of thing you've see in the US and
the UK.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, I think when I first started looking around Danish daycare,
so they start around ten months in something called bugustu
or nursery room, and the children from around the age
of two are expected to dress themselves to go outside.
They can climb trees, they can do all this stuff.
They're trusted to have autonomy over their body, and then
from around the age of three they'll often be maybe
(04:10):
candles lip candles in the window sills of the bernerhun
or the children's gardens, and again the children are trusted
to do it. They're trusted to use knives to chop
up the fruit. My children all attended something terrifying institution
known as Family Scouts from around age two, where they
taught kids how to whittle would so I had two
year old twins either side of me, each being given
(04:32):
a knife.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It was terrifying. It feels like the Danish Health and
Safety should like jump in and make you not do this,
But now.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
There is no Danish health and safety. It does not
exist for Viking. We have this now family catchphrase if
you can have a saw once you're four, that I
had to say to my two year olds because their
big brother was five had his own saw. But there
is this trust that if you let children have that freedom,
and of course there's a healthcare service, so it's not
like a broken arm as medical bankruptcy, but it's a
(04:58):
sense that if they fall and they break an arm,
nor one wants that, but if it happens, it's not
the end of the world, and it's much better for
them to learn. So they are given this great freedom
and Yeah, this great trust is placed in them to
be responsible for their own bodies, to do the right
thing and to learn by doing I.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Guess, and in Denmark trust is sort of heralded and
everyone's into it. But the idea that's poop pood is
this concept of curling, which seems to be something that
parents in the US and the UK are really into.
So what's curling?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, so named after I think this is the Scottish
sport where you're kind of going ahead with brooms trying
to make space and the ideas that you're clearing out
any obstacles away from your children, also known as helicopter parenting.
But there's not so much of it, I would say
in the Nordic countries. In Denmark, my Danish parent friends
were the best teachers. They are explaining how to do
(05:44):
things on a day by day basis when I am clueless.
I am always the idiot in these situations. So every
day was a school day. But they would explain to
me things like, instead of intervening in doing things for
your kids, you set it up so that they can
do it for themselves. So for example, you make sure
all the hooks where their coats or their backpacks for
school are or an area that they can reach them,
a place where they can put them away. All of
(06:05):
that is accessible to them, and so you're not doing
it for them, but thinking what are the obstacles to
the child doing what I want them to do? Quite
child led.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I'd say. You've also talked about how Danish parenting is
more focused on the process than the product. What do
you mean there?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I guess in all of Danish society, for example, and
there's this great idea that everyone is equal and that
no one is to think they're special, and everyone is
worthy of respect just because and this extends to children.
So this idea that it doesn't necessarily matter if you
become the CEO of a company. It matters if you're
a good person. It matters if you have good friends,
(06:41):
if you have maybe great hobbies, if you have a
full and rich life, not rich in the financial sense.
I spoke to parents who weren't that fussed about how
their kids did grades wise at school, which is lucky
because there's not that much pressure on that. That's not
much book learning very early on, but it's more about
will they be happy and first, as a sort of
cynical brit I thought, well, maybe this is a massive
(07:04):
nation of slackers, but no, you see the statistics. Denmark
punches above. It's in terms of businesses, in terms of
creative endeavors, and kids do quite well by the age
of fifteen. It's above of the OECD average in terms
of maths, reading science. So they're doing well, but they
are happier in the process. I think that's the big thing.
(07:25):
So for a Danish parent, it would be no good
if your child was top of the class but miserable.
And actually I spoke to some parents in Finland. He
said they sort of told their children to study a
bit less because they wanted them to just do a
few more extracurricular activities. It doesn't matter about being top
of the class. It matters about being happy and balanced
and fulfilled, which is a very different approach, I guess,
(07:46):
to the one that many of us will grow up with.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Oh man, it's such a different approach than the Yale
students that I work with, you know, And it sounds
like one of the best ways to get there is
to sort of not intervene, even in these domains where
you think intervention is the best approach, and one of
the ones that you talked about in your book, which
I think you had a hard time with yourself, was
not intervening when kids are fighting. Explain why that was
so tricky for you and what you learned from Danish parents.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, so it starts really early on. So in this ugustoo,
in this nursery room, the pedagogues, the early years educators
have a policy of sitting on their hands.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
They would tell me.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I thought they meant this sort of metaphorically, but no,
they mean literally that if little Anton is starting a
fight with little Spen, then you sit on your hands,
so you're not intervening. You see if they can get
themselves to the peace table by themselves. You know, I
grew up an only child and went to an all girls' school.
There was no rough and tumble, none of that sort
of physical contact. I never had that at all until
I became a parent. And then parenting toddlers is fifty
(08:39):
percent running, fifty percent WW and you wrestling.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So I've got all that then.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
But actually play fighting itccurs throughout the animal kingdom. So
they've seen studies in rats that those deprived of the
opportunity to play fight will end up not being able
to read social cues properly. In later life they become
a bit lary. They don't know when it's appropriate to
escalate to aggression and when it isn't. So the approach
for a lot of the Danish parents and experts I
(09:03):
spoke to you was that it's better to let children
find that physicality to grapple it out. Only intervene if
you really have to. I with seriously talking cut lips
and to see if they can get themselves to the
peace table. And it was even my children's teachers telling
me this, which is quite shocking as a parent and
you're considering sending your child to this school and then
the teacher is telling you that, well, they might have
(09:23):
some bumps and bruises. I do see the point there,
but I still find it quite hard.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
One.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
No one wants to watch their kid getting hurt.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Talk about the Danish parents' relationship to allowing their kids
to be outside.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I mean the relationship is put them outside all time
from a really early age. So the sleeping outside in
your prams, for example, it can be up until it
used to be minus fourteen, and now it's minus four
Since what I did all my kids they've made it
a little bit less freezing.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But are you put your kids outside in negative for
degree weather.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
To sleep during the day?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Wow, let me just check the temperature and yeah, so
it's a I'm going celsius to fahrenheit. Yeah, so it
used to be the advice was minus twenty degree celsius
or minus four and now the advice is minus ten celsius.
So that's fourteen degrees fahrenheit.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean either way, like, that's cold, that's cold.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Well, they're really used to. You get the gear, I
mean it's an investment, but you get your child's a
snowsuit and a balaklava. They call it an elephant hat,
don't No one knows why, and mittens and layers and
wool and you're getting this for your kid from the
age of around six months onwards. But there is an
understanding that as a parent, part of what you do
is you equip your child with the necessary clothes to
(10:36):
survive outside all year round. And so there's no question
that you don't go outside when it's raining. You go
outside every day. Otherwise you would never go outside at
all if you waited for a sunny day. So there's
no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes,
and all their peers do it as well, so it's
normalized in a way that's very helpful. As a parent,
you do it because that's what you do here.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
And what are some of the benefits of kind of
getting outside so often even in the yucky weather.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Well, I mean, there's so many studies about how helpful
it is for us psychologically, better for our mind, better
for our bodies to get outside in nature. There was
an amazing studies saying that the average British child spends
less time outside than prisoners, and that's madness. So the
idea of shoving children outside in all weather is really good.
And the Viking approach is that that's what they had
(11:21):
to do historically to survive, and so you keep doing it.
In Sweden they even have sometimes classes about how to
dig yourself out if you get into an ice hole.
Toddlers in Norway will learn how to use a match
and use a compass and read maps. These real sort
of boy scout skills that they're learning really early, makes
them feel more resilient, makes them feel quite strong. My
(11:42):
kids certainly felt quite proud when they had been out
all day in the snow, and they had mastered how
to whittle sticks. They feel this sense of mastery over
their body. It makes them feel more confident and they
seem to thrive on it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
As you talk more about kind of danger and whittling
and all this stuff, I can assume that there might
be some parents who are thinking, Oh, my gosh, are
you just saying I should just like throw my kid
into the woods with a knife and sort of see
what happens. How would you respond to a critique like.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, don't do that. It's age appropriate risk in a
sort of environment where you know that it's safe and
supported and parents know, we know what is best for
our child. Caregiverers understand what the limits of that child is.
So it's just baby steps to see what that child
is ready for. I grew up with that sense of
wanting to wrap my children in cottonwooll at all times.
(12:30):
And I lost my sister when I was younger, so
this idea of protecting a child. I had a lot
of fertility treatment, took me a long time to become
a parent, and when I finally had children, yeah, I
didn't want any harm to come to them at all,
But actually play researchers have looked at the link between
being able to have this kind of risky play and
resilience and the short term it can lead to injury.
Within the long term it's going to help them. Children
(12:52):
are natural risk seekers, that they have curiosity, and one
psychologist told me that she saw in her experience that
it was the children who didn't climb trees that had
the fear of hypes. It's not the one who climb
trees and fell. Also, she saw a lot in her
practice that it was the children maybe who who denied
these opportunities for age appropriate, relatively safe risky play in
(13:14):
childhood will end up seeking out those thrills. There's risks
in maybe adolescence at a time when it's much more precarious,
the stakes are far higher. So I ended up sort
of reasoning it was hard, it took me a while,
but that it was better for to let my children
run a bit wild and climb the trees and whittle
at this age than to have them go off riding
a car in an unsafe way in their teenage years.
(13:35):
That it was better for them to get their thrills
this way.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
But the idea is that probably those thrills and that
risk taking is also normative for teenagers too. So any
advice for parents with older kids who are maybe trying
to embrace this idea In the book you mentioned this idea?
Is it bool?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
A friend of mine who's also a Scout leader ended
up saying this, my pronunciation is also terrible, but ball
this idea of trouble or problems, like you seek out
trouble not so much, but just a bit. There is
a sense that you fail as caregivers if you don't
deny your children opportunities for risky play, and many parents
would suddenly instead just doing maybe a risk assessment of
a future scenario, they do a risk benefit assessment and think, well,
(14:14):
hang on, here's what they could learn. It's a bit
like that, what if I fall, but what if I fly?
What are the things that they could learn from this experience?
How is it expansive? So trying to bear that in mind,
but it's not easy. And certainly if you parent this
way from the beginning, you have a bit of an
advantage because actually teenagers don't have that much to rebel
against in Denmark because they've had a pretty free life
until then. Egalitarian society no hierarchy, so there's not much
(14:38):
to kick back against, to push against. Danish teenagers tend
to get along better with their parents than teenagers. Typically
the cliches go elsewhere, But I think there is still
some opportunity. I would hope, and I'm not there yet
with my own kids, but to give them that freedom,
and as you say, it's that natural thing to want
to separate yourself from your parents and see if they
feel that they have that autonomy to be able to
(14:59):
take that next step.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So do sum up what we've worn so far. Beer
bacon and Danish pastries may be delicious, but there's more
to the American Danish well being gap than access to
Nordic fresh means. If we want children to become happier, healthier,
and more independent, we need to build a society based
on trust, one in which people take a more relaxed
approach to low stakes risks when the happiness labor turns.
(15:21):
From the break, we'll take into a few other things
we can learn from modern day vikings. We'll see why
playtime matters both for kids and adults, and why Danish
parents don't hang children's artwork on their refrigerators. The Happiness
Lab will be right back. If you're a fan of
(15:43):
the show. You and I often talk about the painful
phenomenon of time famine, that sense of overwhelm we feel
when our days are filled to the brim with obligations,
leaving little room to relax or even breathe. But studies
show that these days it's not just adults who suffer
from time famine. Our kids also have packed schedules filled
with school obligations, homework, structured activities, lessons, sports, dates, and
(16:06):
on and on. Most parents want what's best for their
life children, but are super packed schedules the right approach.
Danish parenting expert Helen Russell thinks parents and kids might
be missing out on something even more important. Time for
a play.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Play is so big in the Nordic countries that they
named it twice. It's the New York of the Nordics.
So there's a verb form of play which is liar
with sort of unstructured, intrinsically motivated play. And then there's
also spiela in Danish for when you're playing maybe sports
or a board game or music. And it's really important
for Danish parents that to have all of these types
of play covered, and there's a sense that if you're
(16:41):
not playing, then something's wrong, and that if children aren't
allowed to play, then there's almost a deficit that builds up,
and that they need to be able to just get
out there and express themselves in that way, and they
believe that it helps with collaboration and teamwork and communication,
and play is kind of all Nordic children do. It's
all Vikings do until they turn six when they start
(17:02):
school in Denmark. They start till their seven in Finland,
so it's everything. There is a sense that that's how
you learn, and these are the skills that you developed first,
nothing to do with book learning until much much later.
And actually I spoke to researchers at Cambridge who were
saying that children who learn via play rather than via
the old school book method tend to be happier and
(17:22):
more calm and better at collaborating too. So there's a
lot of play research out there. I think as a parent.
I tried to read it all, found it all quite
hard going, but I kind of broke it down to
this four approaches to play that are things that I
think about in terms of like decorating a cake. So
there's the getting the decorations of the cake, so getting
it out and saying do what you like. They're sort
(17:42):
of guided, so saying well can you make your cake
look like an otter whatever? Or the gamification so who
can do it the fastest. And then there's this step
by step instruction of sitting down with them best attempted
after a really good night to sleep. But by Danish
parent friends were making time to do all of these
in a way that I found quite overwhelming and stressful,
almost as a parent, because I'm not used to that.
(18:03):
My own experience of childhood was very much get on
with the books, get on early, and this idea that
we should all just be having fun and playing was
quite alien. And even in the Nordic country's parents still
feel quite time stretched. Eighty percent of mothers work, both
parents tend to be working. But play is so important
that people are prioritizing it. They are putting aside time
(18:25):
and they're thinking, I'm going to be doing this playing,
and yeah, all the research there is seem to say
that's a really good thing, and that children playing with
their parents as well as their peers is very good
for bonding. So I found that quite hard, but it's
something that I try to do.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I think one of the things that comes up in
the US and the UK is that, you know, it's
not like parents are down on play. It's just like
there's this different pressure that takes precedence, which is this
pressure to succeed, especially academically. What's the kind of right
way to balance that if you're thinking about happiness from
a Danish perspective.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So Danish parent, friends and caregivers and the teachers would
say that the play will give them a lot of
what they need, which I think that's the shift from
the approach maybe in the US and the UK certainly,
so that that way they'll be happier and that actually
you can make a lot of things into play. What
the Nordic countries have is the idea that the goal
(19:16):
sort of is happiness and a good life, and not
happiness in that sort of jazz hands Richts grinway, but
a deep contentment and a really balanced life where you
have time for family, time for friends, time for your
hobbies and a job. So the academic part that would,
I guess later become the job part. The career success.
That's only a small slice of the pie in the Nordics,
(19:37):
that's not everything. So by that metric, it means that
it's never going to be as much pressure, and that
filters out of children because they see their parents. I mean,
of course they're still workplace stress for parents and even
high levels of antipressant use in Denmark, but that's because
there is this sense that you're supposed to enjoy life,
you're supposed to be having a nice time, and if
you're not, you do something about it. So I think
for children, they will go to clubs and activities, they
(20:00):
will do sports, they will do hobbies and things, and
there's a big volunteer culture, so that these clubs and
associations that kids go to tend to be run by parents.
It's for free giving up their time, and a parent
will typically think, if I want my kid to be
able to go to this club, I will have to volunteer.
So throughout my friends, for example, one dad was a
basketball coach, one taught football, one was a swimming teacher.
(20:22):
So again children then see their parents modeling that behavior
and think, oh, that's what you do.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I guess.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I guess one part of the pie is you have
a job and then you have your family, and then
you do something for the community, and it's just a
much more balanced life than I think the culture that
many of us will have grown up.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
In, which is really important because it suggests parents are
doing something different too. They are also prioritizing their own fun,
which is something I think definitely in the US, a
lot of parents say they're really struggling.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
When there's a bit of putting your own oxygen mask
on first, I think in the Nordic countries because again,
at this egalitarian society, there's no but being a martyr,
and I grew up Irish Catholics, so I'm on that bit.
But that's not going to make you happy, it's not
going to help your child. So of course it's a
luxury and a privilege to be able to have free
time and to have any time outside of the work
that pays the bills. But if you are fortunate enough
(21:09):
to have that, then there's no point busting. The tax
situation in the Nordic countries is high, and so if
you work harder to get a promotion, to get a
pay rise, you're going to be ending up giving quite
a lot of that away in tax anyway, so there's
less of an incentive I guess financially to be doing that.
But people are still ambitious. People still earn good money,
they have nice cars, they have nice jobs. But that's
(21:31):
not the be all and end all. You're not judged
by that. So I guess children see that as well.
Their goal is not to have the flash's car. Your
goal is to have spare time. That's the price. It's time,
not money, And so I think children see that as well,
and it makes people more relaxed.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I guess, And that relationship to time I think changes
the way parents are spending time with kids a lot.
One of the things I was surprised by in your
book is all the kind of tiny moments where you
and your kids weren't necessarily doing kid activities specifically, but
you had the kids participating in whatever activities you were doing,
kind of getting the kids to do adult things early on.
(22:08):
What are some of the consequences of that for parent happiness? Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Interesting, There is a sense that with a shorter working
week than elsewhere, the idea of having a home cooked
family dinner, for example, is a norm in the Nordic countries,
and it will be a child's job to lay the
table a child's job to light the candles, candles for
all meal times, even breakfast, to get that Hugo vibe.
A child will help with tiding up, and then you
(22:32):
do your clubs and activities after, so.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
It kind of seems like kids are even more members
of the team.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Some American parents complain about feeling like they're kind of
like high end concierge for their kids, where they're driving
them around and making sure everything's perfect for them, you know,
even being their alarm clock in some situations. Or it
sounds like in Denmark there's like just an expectation that
kids are going to do more and that helps the
parents not feel so overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, I think the team point is a really good one.
There's definitely a sense that we are in this family team.
I mean, the whole of Danish society is about teamwork,
so yeah, of course, why wouldn't your family be a team.
There's not a hierarchy. A lot of my Danish friends
would say I had no clue when I was growing
up that my vote on like what color we painted
the kitchen was no less worthy than my parents, and
just had no concept that they were lesser just because
(23:17):
they were children. But yeah, this emphasis on autonomy again.
There's a great late Danish psychologist called yes but Yule
who wrote a very seminal parenting book. He famously said
all children from the age of around five should be
able to wake themselves up with an alarm clock.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Wait. Wait, I just want to point out that you
said five, because I have Yale students whose parents still
call them and are their alarms especially during the like
you know, midterm season and so on, like, So five,
not twenty five, five repeat five. Just want to make sure.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, And he even gives parents a script of what
to say if they're not sure. My eldest, fiery redhead,
I didn't know quite how this was going to go down.
And I've got three children, and I have a job,
and I'm busy, And so he said, you say to
the child, listen. When you were really little, I thought
it was quite cute to wake you up every day,
but now I find it kind of a pain. And
so this is the alarm clock. You're going to wake
(24:09):
yourself up. That's how it is now. And I was
expecting some pushback, but my son just went, I got
my own alarm clock. Cool, it was done, and so
all of my children have their own alarm clocks. They
get themselves up. There is also a sense of for example,
if a parent needed to talk on the phone, or
even if they just wanted to again, not that martyr thing.
Maybe you just want to chat with your friend. You
(24:32):
say I can't talk right now because I'm talking to
my friend, and no explanation. Again, it's the equality piece,
so you don't have to be trying to raise the
ego of a child. You just say it how it is.
I think there's quite a reputation for straight talking, which
as of people pleasing brit I was not used to
it at all, But there is a bluntness and you
say what you mean, and you mean what you say,
and everyone knows where they stand. And I came to
(24:53):
really appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I think after a while this was a part of
your book that seems so different from American parenting. We
just recently had a big report by our Surgeon General
at the time, vi Vic Murphy, who talked about one
of the mean things parents are experiencing these days is guilt,
just this negative emotion of not doing enough stuff. And
I love your example because you're just telling your kid look,
it's just not fun for me anymore to wake you up,
(25:16):
or I need to talk on the phone with my
friend and just kind of deal with it. But it
seems like Danish parents are able to do that without guilt.
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, I think it's not perfect, and there will of
course be examples of parents who do feel guilty about stuff.
But I think if you take this basic idea that
respect is a given, that everyone is worthy just because
they exist, you don't have to prove yourself you are
enough just because you exist, which is mind blowing for
people of my generation. But I think if you're taking
(25:45):
that as your baseline, then why should anyone feel guilty?
I think this idea where you don't have to overpraise
your child to try and make them feel good. What
I see with parent friends from other countries is if
a parent is feeling a little guilty, there will be
a tendency perhaps to overcompensate. Maybe that's with gifts, maybe
that's with food, maybe that's with saying, oh, that's the
(26:06):
best picture I've ever seen, well done. And the Danish
ways not to do that so much. Firstly, as a
Danish child, you wouldn't know if your parents thought something
you'd done necessarily was good or not. But also it
wouldn't matter because you would know you were loved anyway,
just because. And secondly, the idea is that if a
child is constantly being praised and over praised from an
(26:29):
external person, they will spend their whole life seeking external validation,
which I think many of us will find familiar. So
actually it's much better for a child to develop their
own internal idea of I think this is good or no,
I think I can do something a bit different next time,
and they have that internal compass that again helps with autonomy,
feeling stronger, feeling more sort of in control of the world.
(26:52):
The world is a big scary place, but do you
feel more in control if you think, no, I know
that's the right thing to do. And so instead of
looking for external validation, they just center themselves and they
get to know themselves a little bit. And yeah, it
means that not every picture needs to go up on
the refrigerator, and that you're not constantly telling your child
that they're the best everthing, because they won't be.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They're not. So to recap if we want to raise
happier kids, we might need to broaden our definition of success.
We might need to take play more seriously, and we
might need to relax a bit when it comes to
the academic stuff. But if you're a parent, you're probably
thinking while all that's easier said than done. So after
the break we'll dive into Helen's actionable tips for how
(27:33):
caretakers can set the kinds of healthier boundaries that lead
to a less stressful life, not just for kids, but
for parents too. The Happiness Lab will be back in
a moment. I often hear from parents who tell me
that they just don't have the same sense of self
(27:54):
now as they did before having kids. They love their children,
but they worry that they've lost their own preferences and
identity somewhere on the path to becoming mom or dad.
Author Helen Russell says this is another spot where Nordic
families seem to be navigating things a little bit better.
Danish parents don't have as much trouble expressing their preferences
as US parents do, For instance, take bedtime.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So this is another really good example in that parenting
books i'd read from the UK and the US all
SAIDs things that there were basically along the lines of
a little bit kind of tricking your kid into going
to bed and just going, oh, look at the time,
now you're going to be tired tomorrow, and sort of
telling your child how they feel, which isn't the naudic approach.
Instead the culture there is much more saying but you
(28:37):
know what, I as a parent, I'm kind of tired now,
I'm kind of done. So if you could go to bed,
that would be great because I'm not doing any more
parenting now. So good night, I love you, I'll see
you in the morning with her alarm and that's it.
But again it's that trusting that the child will get
to know themselves. So the idea is that a child
should be able to have autonomy over when they are tired.
So you're not telling a child that they're sleepy. They
(28:58):
may not be sleepy. They can sit in bed if
they like, they're nothing exciting in there. They can read
a book if they really want to, but they are
just in bed now because it's parent time. And again,
around food, it's more that a child should be able
to tell if they are hungry or not. So you
don't say to a child you have to finish your
plate or no pudding Instead, you trust that a child
may have an idiosyncretic biological clock, they may not be
(29:21):
hungry and we are, and that they should be in
control of things like whether they're tired or hungry, or
whether they're too warm or too cold. You trust that
the child will know that, which I found again quite
challenging as an outsider, because I grew up with the
generation that you finish your plate, and then lots of
my peers had eating disorders in their teens and twenties
(29:41):
and just not trusting our own appetites for anything. I
do feel it's quite problematic, and so I found it
very difficult, but it was something I knew. I definitely
wanted to try to put in place for my children
so that they again got this sense of themselves that
wasn't from external voices.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
It strikes me up at this in some ways as
easier for comparance. Obviously, it's harder because you want to
help your kids and make sure they're you're eating rye
and going to sleep on time and so on. But
if you give your kids that responsibility, it must be
that parents wind up feeling less overwhelmed because there's kind
of less stuff that you have to do if you're
worrying about their senses and their feelings and their needs
all the time. Like if you offload that so that
(30:19):
they do it themselves, not only do they learn how
to do it, but it's kind of less overwhelmed and
less work for you as a parent too. I think so.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
And some people have kids who are just a great
sleepers or great eaters, and that's brilliant for them. I
have three very different children. I have experienced many different approaches,
but actually the only thing I have control over is myself.
So if I say I'm tired, and that's true, I
am exhausted by about ten PM. So if I say
I'm tired now, so I need you to go to bed,
(30:47):
I'll see you in the morning and I love you,
then again that feels like I'm modeling because I'm saying, well,
I have needs, these are my needs. I need to
be done with parenting now for the day to be fresh,
to be ready for the next day. And gives a
bit of a life back to parents, which I think
so many parenting manuals or advice columns or gurus out there.
As you say, there's a lot of pressure and it
(31:08):
you can feel very guilty, and you can feel like
you're not doing the right thing, and it's never enough.
And this Nordic approach just seemed kind of easy. You
can kind of let your shoulders drop and you can
exhale finally, and you get a bit of your life back.
And if the studies are to be believed, your children
are happier, healthier, and more resilient. And I certainly see
with my own children and the children and my friends
(31:29):
and throughout the Nordic countries, all of the young people
I spoke to, that there is something in it. It
makes sense that they have this autonomy, this sense of
self worth.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
It also seems like Danish parents are just kind of
chiller generally, like they just kind of don't get as
upset about their kids resistant behavior and so on. Was
that something you observed and was that something you were
able to model yourself?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yes, you know, we all had this idea. Well, I
certainly did a vikings of these big, strong, marauding group
of people, but actually moder day vikings, it turns out,
barely raise their voices at all. I was really surprised,
and coming from a different parenting culture, I am used
to perhaps hearing in supermarkets, you know, a parent telling
their child off. I rarely hear parents raise their voices
(32:12):
in the Nordic countries. In Sweden especially, there's this very soft,
sort of soothing voice. And one of the parents I
spoke to you there, said yeah, I couldn't believe it.
She's British and she lives in Sweden and she was saying,
my neighbor's kid lock themselves in the shed and said,
you weren't going to school. And I said, did you
lose your mind?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
She said no.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I said, well, we'll try again tomorrow. I'm not sure
I would have that patience, but there seem to be
reserves of patients, and I'm thinking it's something to do
with being raised that way themselves, that they know what works.
As you say, it's kind of giving more time and
headspace back to the parents. So they just are a
little calmer. They're a bit better able to cope with
(32:50):
the challenges that parenting can throw at any of us. So, yes,
it is very calm. There is a sense that if
you raise your voice, you've lost it, You've lost that battle,
and again you're modeling to your child, and brains can
show that if you raise your voice at a child.
If you're shouting at a child, they can go into
that defensive mode where they're not actually hearing what you
say say or taking in anyway, which I thought sounded
(33:11):
very convenient when I first heard it. Better, you know,
I've seen the brain scans, I've seen the science, and
now I'm thinking, oh, yes, okay, that's true, and I'm
still not immune to doing that, but I know that
I've lost when that happens, and I know that if
I really want to get through, I have to channel
my inner Nordic parent and try and remain, can't.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I think another thing is different from America, I mean
the UK parents is that even in that shed situation
you talked about, like if you don't get the kid
to school, and sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, the
kid's not going to go to school and they won't
get the right grades and they'll never get into college.
There's this real fear of failure I think in US parenting,
but in Danish parenting system it seems like failure is
kind of okay, it's sort of just like this, oh well,
(33:48):
there's even a word for it too that I think
you really embraced, right. I think it's actually behind you
right now, the pit the pyt Oh, yeah, do you
know what's it?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, this is this idea where it means sort of
like it doesn't matter, it's fine. So yeah, along with
the trouble and the tillid this is the great word.
So you just think, oh, just let it go, it's fine.
And as a naturally repressed British woman, I have to
just remind myself of this at all times. But yeah,
I think that feeds into the parenting. As you say,
is this idea of it's not the end of the world.
(34:17):
And we know enough of studies now to know that
failure is important for growth and that it happens, you
can't avoid it, So why not just let it happen
when it happens, and hope that it happens in fairly
low stakes ways so that it doesn't happen in the
big stakes way later on. And I think again, it's
this idea where we're all worthy just because, and there's
an emotional safety net at all times, so that if
(34:38):
something goes wrong, you are still loved and held and
you will be helped back up to hopefully learn from it.
Next time.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
So one of the reasons I was especially excited to
talk to you now is that I know you've recently
left the Viking world and moved back to the UK.
So having kind of been a Danish parent for a decade,
now you're back to being the UK parent, and so
I'm curious how you keep these Danish norms in a
situation where many parents aren't following them. How do you
follow the Danish ways even if you're maybe not living
(35:07):
in Denmark at the time.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, it's been interesting and it has sort of put
it to test because when I wrote the book, I
didn't know that i'd be moving back. And as you say,
it's much easier to put all these things into practice
when you're in the Nordic countries, and when you're out
of them, that's when they're really put to the test.
But I've been going back to it, following my own
advice or following the advice of these Nordic parenting experts
and parent friends. And of course it's a different school system.
(35:28):
They've never done exams for, they've never done homework before,
but hoping that they understand that. Of course, I want
you to learn and I want you to try your best,
but it's not the end of the world. They still
have their alarm clocks. I still tell them when I'm
done for the day, you need to be in your
rooms now. And I try and make sure with all
of the activities and the business and the schedules that
we all have these days, that there is time for
(35:48):
them to just be and be really bored. Boredom's the
best thing, you know. I wouldn't have been a writer
if I hadn't had the opportunity to be bored as
a child, and I think that's something we often lose
a lot in modern lives. Also, I have one daughter.
It was really important to me that she was allowed
to still do all of the kind of marauding Viking stuff.
So I want all of my children to still be
(36:10):
able to take risks and to be active and to
be outdoors. It was really important to me that nobody
ever told my daughter that she can't climb a tree,
and I'm very happy to say that in a month and
a half in she is higher up the trees than
she's ever been. I do get some strange looks from
other parents. Someone asked me the other day, my kids
were all outside and she said, you do know it's raining, right, Yeah,
you know, Yeah, that's fine. So just trying to, I guess,
(36:34):
give them that autonomy. So I have given them all
jobs and they have things that they have to do
with the running of the household. I've got my hammer out.
I've put up a lot of shells at kid height
so they can reach everything.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
They can do everything.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
There's a cupboard where there are any time snacks that
they're allowed any time, so I don't have to be
the one providing snacks for them or their friends. And yes,
someone also asked me the other day, like, you don't
have any of your kids' pictures on the fridge. No
kids pictured it on the refrigerator. So yeah, I'm trying
to put it into practice in the non Nordic world now.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
And so you get pushed back from other parents. This
is something a lot of American parents report feeling the
most guilty about, is when they get the kind of
side eye from another mom being like, oh, you're doing that.
How do you steal yourself against that? How do you
decide like, well, I'm proud of what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Well, you know, I'm a massive geek, so I defer
to people like you. I'll defer to all the science
and say, well, actually, OECD studies, so raising children in
the Nordic mode helps them to be happier and healthier,
more resilient. And there's so much now that we know
about things like work life balance, things like school, things
like autonomy and risky play that I just tend to
be a massive geek and reel off the science. So
(37:43):
in the back of this book, I've written all the
studies just flick it in their paces that's flicking in
the other parent places, and we'll start a Viking revolution.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I love Helen's idea of starting a Viking parent revolution,
and just to recap Helen's ideas for how to do that. First,
remember that taking time for what you need as a
parent isn't selfish, it's modeling self care. When you trust
yourself in your needs, your children will learn to trust
theirs too. Second, embraced quiet, boredom and failure. If your
kid locks themselves into proverbial shed one day, know that
(38:14):
even though it feels like the end of the world,
the sun will rise again. And finally, don't let other
parents side eyes keep you from embracing your inner Viking.
In the next episode, we'll tackle the question of how
we can set healthier boundaries, both in our parenting and beyond.
We'll chat with clinical psychologist and parenting expert doctor Becky
Kennedy will share her expert tips for expressing boundaries and
(38:37):
firm but compassionate ways.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
We have some unconscious belief that, like I'm going to
set some really good boundary for my kid, my kid's
gonna be like that is amazing parenting mom. Thank you,
I do need to go to bed. Thank you for
turning off the TV. Never no child in my house
or any child I know with normal has ever said
that all that.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Next time on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie
Santo's
Pushkin. It's no secret that Nordic countries have very high
levels of well being. Ever since the World Happiness Report
launched their famous country happiness rankings back in twenty twelve,
Scandinavian countries have consistently dominated the competition. In fact, Finland
(00:36):
and Denmark have claimed the top spots for an impressive
seven years running. The US and UK, by contrast, they
haven't even broken into the top ten. So what's behind
this Nordic happiness advantage. Journalist Helen Russell believes it starts
in childhood.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's not an accident that people from the Nordic countries
have voted the happiest in the world year after year.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
This is how they are raised. If you're a fan
of The Happiness Lab, you might remember Helen from a
previous episode entitled Move to Your Happy Place. I asked
Helen to return for this special series on parenting because
she is travel a rather circuitous path towards a happier
family life.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So I am London born and bred and my husband
got a job at Lego in Denmark and we had
no intention of ever leaving London, but Denmark kept being
voted the happiest country in the world, and I kind
of wondered, what was it all about? Could it be
that beer, bacon, Danish pastries really made you that happy?
So I decided I would give it a year, investigating
the Danish happiness phenomenon firsthand, looking at different areas of
(01:34):
Danish living to see if any of them made me happier,
and spoiler alert, it sort of did. And I ended
up staying not one year, but nearly twelve in the end,
and parenting a very loud mini redhead and surprise twins.
So life changed in ways I didn't expect at all,
But I did learn that Viking children grow up happier
and healthier and more independent. We bought a home, our
(01:56):
first home together, in the Danish countryside, in a very
Danish neighborhood, so yeah, really getting under the skin of
being part of the groups and clubs and associations, and
sending our kids into Danish childcare, really understanding what it
means to live danishly, and then really looking throughout the
other Nordic countries of the things that they do that
are very similar and very different to how I think
we do it in the.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Rest of the world. Helen's now the author of the
Deaner's Secret to Happy Kids, how the Viking way of
raising children makes them happier, healthier, and more independent. I
wanted to chat with Helen about why Nordic parenting is
so much less stressful than parenting in the US. One
of the big things you talk about is being really different.
Concerns this idea of trust in Denmark, which seems different
in the US and the UK. You talked in your
(02:38):
book about this idea of tillid. What does that word
mean and why is it so important in Denmark? So
this is this magical word. It's a mixture of trust
and faith, and really the whole of Danish society is
built around this. You have to have trust in the
people around you that they will also behave well and
that everyone will contribute their fair share, and then you
have to kind of have a bit of faith that
it will all turn out okay. So things like this
(03:01):
famous idea of Danes leaving their babies to nap outside
in their prams during the day while they pop into
a cafe for lunch or go for a coffee or
go for a swimming And I've seen once and there
is this trust that no harm will come to them.
There's a faith that the whole community will rally round
so that whoever the adult is in a certain situation
will have eyes on the children in their sphere around them.
(03:22):
And as a parent, where you can feel so alone
and so isolated and so terrified, frankly, a lot of
the time, that really helped, because you sort of have
the headspace to be happy and relaxed if you have
this trust and faith that it's kind of going to
be okay and that most people are not out to
get you, that people have got your back. And that
kind of trust seems to extend to how parents think
about kids and what they're capable of. How is this
(03:45):
different in terms of how Danish parents trust kids than
the kind of thing you've see in the US and
the UK.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, I think when I first started looking around Danish daycare,
so they start around ten months in something called bugustu
or nursery room, and the children from around the age
of two are expected to dress themselves to go outside.
They can climb trees, they can do all this stuff.
They're trusted to have autonomy over their body, and then
from around the age of three they'll often be maybe
(04:10):
candles lip candles in the window sills of the bernerhun
or the children's gardens, and again the children are trusted
to do it. They're trusted to use knives to chop
up the fruit. My children all attended something terrifying institution
known as Family Scouts from around age two, where they
taught kids how to whittle would so I had two
year old twins either side of me, each being given
(04:32):
a knife.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It was terrifying. It feels like the Danish Health and
Safety should like jump in and make you not do this,
But now.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
There is no Danish health and safety. It does not
exist for Viking. We have this now family catchphrase if
you can have a saw once you're four, that I
had to say to my two year olds because their
big brother was five had his own saw. But there
is this trust that if you let children have that freedom,
and of course there's a healthcare service, so it's not
like a broken arm as medical bankruptcy, but it's a
(04:58):
sense that if they fall and they break an arm,
nor one wants that, but if it happens, it's not
the end of the world, and it's much better for
them to learn. So they are given this great freedom
and Yeah, this great trust is placed in them to
be responsible for their own bodies, to do the right
thing and to learn by doing I.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Guess, and in Denmark trust is sort of heralded and
everyone's into it. But the idea that's poop pood is
this concept of curling, which seems to be something that
parents in the US and the UK are really into.
So what's curling?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, so named after I think this is the Scottish
sport where you're kind of going ahead with brooms trying
to make space and the ideas that you're clearing out
any obstacles away from your children, also known as helicopter parenting.
But there's not so much of it, I would say
in the Nordic countries. In Denmark, my Danish parent friends
were the best teachers. They are explaining how to do
(05:44):
things on a day by day basis when I am clueless.
I am always the idiot in these situations. So every
day was a school day. But they would explain to
me things like, instead of intervening in doing things for
your kids, you set it up so that they can
do it for themselves. So for example, you make sure
all the hooks where their coats or their backpacks for
school are or an area that they can reach them,
a place where they can put them away. All of
(06:05):
that is accessible to them, and so you're not doing
it for them, but thinking what are the obstacles to
the child doing what I want them to do? Quite
child led.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I'd say. You've also talked about how Danish parenting is
more focused on the process than the product. What do
you mean there?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I guess in all of Danish society, for example, and
there's this great idea that everyone is equal and that
no one is to think they're special, and everyone is
worthy of respect just because and this extends to children.
So this idea that it doesn't necessarily matter if you
become the CEO of a company. It matters if you're
a good person. It matters if you have good friends,
(06:41):
if you have maybe great hobbies, if you have a
full and rich life, not rich in the financial sense.
I spoke to parents who weren't that fussed about how
their kids did grades wise at school, which is lucky
because there's not that much pressure on that. That's not
much book learning very early on, but it's more about
will they be happy and first, as a sort of
cynical brit I thought, well, maybe this is a massive
(07:04):
nation of slackers, but no, you see the statistics. Denmark
punches above. It's in terms of businesses, in terms of
creative endeavors, and kids do quite well by the age
of fifteen. It's above of the OECD average in terms
of maths, reading science. So they're doing well, but they
are happier in the process. I think that's the big thing.
(07:25):
So for a Danish parent, it would be no good
if your child was top of the class but miserable.
And actually I spoke to some parents in Finland. He
said they sort of told their children to study a
bit less because they wanted them to just do a
few more extracurricular activities. It doesn't matter about being top
of the class. It matters about being happy and balanced
and fulfilled, which is a very different approach, I guess,
(07:46):
to the one that many of us will grow up with.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Oh man, it's such a different approach than the Yale
students that I work with, you know, And it sounds
like one of the best ways to get there is
to sort of not intervene, even in these domains where
you think intervention is the best approach, and one of
the ones that you talked about in your book, which
I think you had a hard time with yourself, was
not intervening when kids are fighting. Explain why that was
so tricky for you and what you learned from Danish parents.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, so it starts really early on. So in this ugustoo,
in this nursery room, the pedagogues, the early years educators
have a policy of sitting on their hands.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
They would tell me.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I thought they meant this sort of metaphorically, but no,
they mean literally that if little Anton is starting a
fight with little Spen, then you sit on your hands,
so you're not intervening. You see if they can get
themselves to the peace table by themselves. You know, I
grew up an only child and went to an all girls' school.
There was no rough and tumble, none of that sort
of physical contact. I never had that at all until
I became a parent. And then parenting toddlers is fifty
(08:39):
percent running, fifty percent WW and you wrestling.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So I've got all that then.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
But actually play fighting itccurs throughout the animal kingdom. So
they've seen studies in rats that those deprived of the
opportunity to play fight will end up not being able
to read social cues properly. In later life they become
a bit lary. They don't know when it's appropriate to
escalate to aggression and when it isn't. So the approach
for a lot of the Danish parents and experts I
(09:03):
spoke to you was that it's better to let children
find that physicality to grapple it out. Only intervene if
you really have to. I with seriously talking cut lips
and to see if they can get themselves to the
peace table. And it was even my children's teachers telling
me this, which is quite shocking as a parent and
you're considering sending your child to this school and then
the teacher is telling you that, well, they might have
(09:23):
some bumps and bruises. I do see the point there,
but I still find it quite hard.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
One.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
No one wants to watch their kid getting hurt.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Talk about the Danish parents' relationship to allowing their kids
to be outside.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I mean the relationship is put them outside all time
from a really early age. So the sleeping outside in
your prams, for example, it can be up until it
used to be minus fourteen, and now it's minus four
Since what I did all my kids they've made it
a little bit less freezing.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But are you put your kids outside in negative for
degree weather.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
To sleep during the day?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Wow, let me just check the temperature and yeah, so
it's a I'm going celsius to fahrenheit. Yeah, so it
used to be the advice was minus twenty degree celsius
or minus four and now the advice is minus ten celsius.
So that's fourteen degrees fahrenheit.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean either way, like, that's cold, that's cold.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Well, they're really used to. You get the gear, I
mean it's an investment, but you get your child's a
snowsuit and a balaklava. They call it an elephant hat,
don't No one knows why, and mittens and layers and
wool and you're getting this for your kid from the
age of around six months onwards. But there is an
understanding that as a parent, part of what you do
is you equip your child with the necessary clothes to
(10:36):
survive outside all year round. And so there's no question
that you don't go outside when it's raining. You go
outside every day. Otherwise you would never go outside at
all if you waited for a sunny day. So there's
no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes,
and all their peers do it as well, so it's
normalized in a way that's very helpful. As a parent,
you do it because that's what you do here.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
And what are some of the benefits of kind of
getting outside so often even in the yucky weather.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Well, I mean, there's so many studies about how helpful
it is for us psychologically, better for our mind, better
for our bodies to get outside in nature. There was
an amazing studies saying that the average British child spends
less time outside than prisoners, and that's madness. So the
idea of shoving children outside in all weather is really good.
And the Viking approach is that that's what they had
(11:21):
to do historically to survive, and so you keep doing it.
In Sweden they even have sometimes classes about how to
dig yourself out if you get into an ice hole.
Toddlers in Norway will learn how to use a match
and use a compass and read maps. These real sort
of boy scout skills that they're learning really early, makes
them feel more resilient, makes them feel quite strong. My
(11:42):
kids certainly felt quite proud when they had been out
all day in the snow, and they had mastered how
to whittle sticks. They feel this sense of mastery over
their body. It makes them feel more confident and they
seem to thrive on it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
As you talk more about kind of danger and whittling
and all this stuff, I can assume that there might
be some parents who are thinking, Oh, my gosh, are
you just saying I should just like throw my kid
into the woods with a knife and sort of see
what happens. How would you respond to a critique like.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, don't do that. It's age appropriate risk in a
sort of environment where you know that it's safe and
supported and parents know, we know what is best for
our child. Caregiverers understand what the limits of that child is.
So it's just baby steps to see what that child
is ready for. I grew up with that sense of
wanting to wrap my children in cottonwooll at all times.
(12:30):
And I lost my sister when I was younger, so
this idea of protecting a child. I had a lot
of fertility treatment, took me a long time to become
a parent, and when I finally had children, yeah, I
didn't want any harm to come to them at all,
But actually play researchers have looked at the link between
being able to have this kind of risky play and
resilience and the short term it can lead to injury.
Within the long term it's going to help them. Children
(12:52):
are natural risk seekers, that they have curiosity, and one
psychologist told me that she saw in her experience that
it was the children who didn't climb trees that had
the fear of hypes. It's not the one who climb
trees and fell. Also, she saw a lot in her
practice that it was the children maybe who who denied
these opportunities for age appropriate, relatively safe risky play in
(13:14):
childhood will end up seeking out those thrills. There's risks
in maybe adolescence at a time when it's much more precarious,
the stakes are far higher. So I ended up sort
of reasoning it was hard, it took me a while,
but that it was better for to let my children
run a bit wild and climb the trees and whittle
at this age than to have them go off riding
a car in an unsafe way in their teenage years.
(13:35):
That it was better for them to get their thrills
this way.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
But the idea is that probably those thrills and that
risk taking is also normative for teenagers too. So any
advice for parents with older kids who are maybe trying
to embrace this idea In the book you mentioned this idea?
Is it bool?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
A friend of mine who's also a Scout leader ended
up saying this, my pronunciation is also terrible, but ball
this idea of trouble or problems, like you seek out
trouble not so much, but just a bit. There is
a sense that you fail as caregivers if you don't
deny your children opportunities for risky play, and many parents
would suddenly instead just doing maybe a risk assessment of
a future scenario, they do a risk benefit assessment and think, well,
(14:14):
hang on, here's what they could learn. It's a bit
like that, what if I fall, but what if I fly?
What are the things that they could learn from this experience?
How is it expansive? So trying to bear that in mind,
but it's not easy. And certainly if you parent this
way from the beginning, you have a bit of an
advantage because actually teenagers don't have that much to rebel
against in Denmark because they've had a pretty free life
until then. Egalitarian society no hierarchy, so there's not much
(14:38):
to kick back against, to push against. Danish teenagers tend
to get along better with their parents than teenagers. Typically
the cliches go elsewhere, But I think there is still
some opportunity. I would hope, and I'm not there yet
with my own kids, but to give them that freedom,
and as you say, it's that natural thing to want
to separate yourself from your parents and see if they
feel that they have that autonomy to be able to
(14:59):
take that next step.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So do sum up what we've worn so far. Beer
bacon and Danish pastries may be delicious, but there's more
to the American Danish well being gap than access to
Nordic fresh means. If we want children to become happier, healthier,
and more independent, we need to build a society based
on trust, one in which people take a more relaxed
approach to low stakes risks when the happiness labor turns.
(15:21):
From the break, we'll take into a few other things
we can learn from modern day vikings. We'll see why
playtime matters both for kids and adults, and why Danish
parents don't hang children's artwork on their refrigerators. The Happiness
Lab will be right back. If you're a fan of
(15:43):
the show. You and I often talk about the painful
phenomenon of time famine, that sense of overwhelm we feel
when our days are filled to the brim with obligations,
leaving little room to relax or even breathe. But studies
show that these days it's not just adults who suffer
from time famine. Our kids also have packed schedules filled
with school obligations, homework, structured activities, lessons, sports, dates, and
(16:06):
on and on. Most parents want what's best for their
life children, but are super packed schedules the right approach.
Danish parenting expert Helen Russell thinks parents and kids might
be missing out on something even more important. Time for
a play.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Play is so big in the Nordic countries that they
named it twice. It's the New York of the Nordics.
So there's a verb form of play which is liar
with sort of unstructured, intrinsically motivated play. And then there's
also spiela in Danish for when you're playing maybe sports
or a board game or music. And it's really important
for Danish parents that to have all of these types
of play covered, and there's a sense that if you're
(16:41):
not playing, then something's wrong, and that if children aren't
allowed to play, then there's almost a deficit that builds up,
and that they need to be able to just get
out there and express themselves in that way, and they
believe that it helps with collaboration and teamwork and communication,
and play is kind of all Nordic children do. It's
all Vikings do until they turn six when they start
(17:02):
school in Denmark. They start till their seven in Finland,
so it's everything. There is a sense that that's how
you learn, and these are the skills that you developed first,
nothing to do with book learning until much much later.
And actually I spoke to researchers at Cambridge who were
saying that children who learn via play rather than via
the old school book method tend to be happier and
(17:22):
more calm and better at collaborating too. So there's a
lot of play research out there. I think as a parent.
I tried to read it all, found it all quite
hard going, but I kind of broke it down to
this four approaches to play that are things that I
think about in terms of like decorating a cake. So
there's the getting the decorations of the cake, so getting
it out and saying do what you like. They're sort
(17:42):
of guided, so saying well can you make your cake
look like an otter whatever? Or the gamification so who
can do it the fastest. And then there's this step
by step instruction of sitting down with them best attempted
after a really good night to sleep. But by Danish
parent friends were making time to do all of these
in a way that I found quite overwhelming and stressful,
almost as a parent, because I'm not used to that.
(18:03):
My own experience of childhood was very much get on
with the books, get on early, and this idea that
we should all just be having fun and playing was
quite alien. And even in the Nordic country's parents still
feel quite time stretched. Eighty percent of mothers work, both
parents tend to be working. But play is so important
that people are prioritizing it. They are putting aside time
(18:25):
and they're thinking, I'm going to be doing this playing,
and yeah, all the research there is seem to say
that's a really good thing, and that children playing with
their parents as well as their peers is very good
for bonding. So I found that quite hard, but it's
something that I try to do.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I think one of the things that comes up in
the US and the UK is that, you know, it's
not like parents are down on play. It's just like
there's this different pressure that takes precedence, which is this
pressure to succeed, especially academically. What's the kind of right
way to balance that if you're thinking about happiness from
a Danish perspective.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So Danish parent, friends and caregivers and the teachers would
say that the play will give them a lot of
what they need, which I think that's the shift from
the approach maybe in the US and the UK certainly,
so that that way they'll be happier and that actually
you can make a lot of things into play. What
the Nordic countries have is the idea that the goal
(19:16):
sort of is happiness and a good life, and not
happiness in that sort of jazz hands Richts grinway, but
a deep contentment and a really balanced life where you
have time for family, time for friends, time for your
hobbies and a job. So the academic part that would,
I guess later become the job part. The career success.
That's only a small slice of the pie in the Nordics,
(19:37):
that's not everything. So by that metric, it means that
it's never going to be as much pressure, and that
filters out of children because they see their parents. I mean,
of course they're still workplace stress for parents and even
high levels of antipressant use in Denmark, but that's because
there is this sense that you're supposed to enjoy life,
you're supposed to be having a nice time, and if
you're not, you do something about it. So I think
for children, they will go to clubs and activities, they
(20:00):
will do sports, they will do hobbies and things, and
there's a big volunteer culture, so that these clubs and
associations that kids go to tend to be run by parents.
It's for free giving up their time, and a parent
will typically think, if I want my kid to be
able to go to this club, I will have to volunteer.
So throughout my friends, for example, one dad was a
basketball coach, one taught football, one was a swimming teacher.
(20:22):
So again children then see their parents modeling that behavior
and think, oh, that's what you do.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I guess.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I guess one part of the pie is you have
a job and then you have your family, and then
you do something for the community, and it's just a
much more balanced life than I think the culture that
many of us will have grown up.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
In, which is really important because it suggests parents are
doing something different too. They are also prioritizing their own fun,
which is something I think definitely in the US, a
lot of parents say they're really struggling.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
When there's a bit of putting your own oxygen mask
on first, I think in the Nordic countries because again,
at this egalitarian society, there's no but being a martyr,
and I grew up Irish Catholics, so I'm on that bit.
But that's not going to make you happy, it's not
going to help your child. So of course it's a
luxury and a privilege to be able to have free
time and to have any time outside of the work
that pays the bills. But if you are fortunate enough
(21:09):
to have that, then there's no point busting. The tax
situation in the Nordic countries is high, and so if
you work harder to get a promotion, to get a
pay rise, you're going to be ending up giving quite
a lot of that away in tax anyway, so there's
less of an incentive I guess financially to be doing that.
But people are still ambitious. People still earn good money,
they have nice cars, they have nice jobs. But that's
(21:31):
not the be all and end all. You're not judged
by that. So I guess children see that as well.
Their goal is not to have the flash's car. Your
goal is to have spare time. That's the price. It's time,
not money, And so I think children see that as well,
and it makes people more relaxed.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I guess, And that relationship to time I think changes
the way parents are spending time with kids a lot.
One of the things I was surprised by in your
book is all the kind of tiny moments where you
and your kids weren't necessarily doing kid activities specifically, but
you had the kids participating in whatever activities you were doing,
kind of getting the kids to do adult things early on.
(22:08):
What are some of the consequences of that for parent happiness? Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Interesting, There is a sense that with a shorter working
week than elsewhere, the idea of having a home cooked
family dinner, for example, is a norm in the Nordic countries,
and it will be a child's job to lay the
table a child's job to light the candles, candles for
all meal times, even breakfast, to get that Hugo vibe.
A child will help with tiding up, and then you
(22:32):
do your clubs and activities after, so.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
It kind of seems like kids are even more members
of the team.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Some American parents complain about feeling like they're kind of
like high end concierge for their kids, where they're driving
them around and making sure everything's perfect for them, you know,
even being their alarm clock in some situations. Or it
sounds like in Denmark there's like just an expectation that
kids are going to do more and that helps the
parents not feel so overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, I think the team point is a really good one.
There's definitely a sense that we are in this family team.
I mean, the whole of Danish society is about teamwork,
so yeah, of course, why wouldn't your family be a team.
There's not a hierarchy. A lot of my Danish friends
would say I had no clue when I was growing
up that my vote on like what color we painted
the kitchen was no less worthy than my parents, and
just had no concept that they were lesser just because
(23:17):
they were children. But yeah, this emphasis on autonomy again.
There's a great late Danish psychologist called yes but Yule
who wrote a very seminal parenting book. He famously said
all children from the age of around five should be
able to wake themselves up with an alarm clock.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Wait. Wait, I just want to point out that you
said five, because I have Yale students whose parents still
call them and are their alarms especially during the like
you know, midterm season and so on, like, So five,
not twenty five, five repeat five. Just want to make sure.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, And he even gives parents a script of what
to say if they're not sure. My eldest, fiery redhead,
I didn't know quite how this was going to go down.
And I've got three children, and I have a job,
and I'm busy, And so he said, you say to
the child, listen. When you were really little, I thought
it was quite cute to wake you up every day,
but now I find it kind of a pain. And
so this is the alarm clock. You're going to wake
(24:09):
yourself up. That's how it is now. And I was
expecting some pushback, but my son just went, I got
my own alarm clock. Cool, it was done, and so
all of my children have their own alarm clocks. They
get themselves up. There is also a sense of for example,
if a parent needed to talk on the phone, or
even if they just wanted to again, not that martyr thing.
Maybe you just want to chat with your friend. You
(24:32):
say I can't talk right now because I'm talking to
my friend, and no explanation. Again, it's the equality piece,
so you don't have to be trying to raise the
ego of a child. You just say it how it is.
I think there's quite a reputation for straight talking, which
as of people pleasing brit I was not used to
it at all, But there is a bluntness and you
say what you mean, and you mean what you say,
and everyone knows where they stand. And I came to
(24:53):
really appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I think after a while this was a part of
your book that seems so different from American parenting. We
just recently had a big report by our Surgeon General
at the time, vi Vic Murphy, who talked about one
of the mean things parents are experiencing these days is guilt,
just this negative emotion of not doing enough stuff. And
I love your example because you're just telling your kid look,
it's just not fun for me anymore to wake you up,
(25:16):
or I need to talk on the phone with my
friend and just kind of deal with it. But it
seems like Danish parents are able to do that without guilt.
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, I think it's not perfect, and there will of
course be examples of parents who do feel guilty about stuff.
But I think if you take this basic idea that
respect is a given, that everyone is worthy just because
they exist, you don't have to prove yourself you are
enough just because you exist, which is mind blowing for
people of my generation. But I think if you're taking
(25:45):
that as your baseline, then why should anyone feel guilty?
I think this idea where you don't have to overpraise
your child to try and make them feel good. What
I see with parent friends from other countries is if
a parent is feeling a little guilty, there will be
a tendency perhaps to overcompensate. Maybe that's with gifts, maybe
that's with food, maybe that's with saying, oh, that's the
(26:06):
best picture I've ever seen, well done. And the Danish
ways not to do that so much. Firstly, as a
Danish child, you wouldn't know if your parents thought something
you'd done necessarily was good or not. But also it
wouldn't matter because you would know you were loved anyway,
just because. And secondly, the idea is that if a
child is constantly being praised and over praised from an
(26:29):
external person, they will spend their whole life seeking external validation,
which I think many of us will find familiar. So
actually it's much better for a child to develop their
own internal idea of I think this is good or no,
I think I can do something a bit different next time,
and they have that internal compass that again helps with autonomy,
feeling stronger, feeling more sort of in control of the world.
(26:52):
The world is a big scary place, but do you
feel more in control if you think, no, I know
that's the right thing to do. And so instead of
looking for external validation, they just center themselves and they
get to know themselves a little bit. And yeah, it
means that not every picture needs to go up on
the refrigerator, and that you're not constantly telling your child
that they're the best everthing, because they won't be.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They're not. So to recap if we want to raise
happier kids, we might need to broaden our definition of success.
We might need to take play more seriously, and we
might need to relax a bit when it comes to
the academic stuff. But if you're a parent, you're probably
thinking while all that's easier said than done. So after
the break we'll dive into Helen's actionable tips for how
(27:33):
caretakers can set the kinds of healthier boundaries that lead
to a less stressful life, not just for kids, but
for parents too. The Happiness Lab will be back in
a moment. I often hear from parents who tell me
that they just don't have the same sense of self
(27:54):
now as they did before having kids. They love their children,
but they worry that they've lost their own preferences and
identity somewhere on the path to becoming mom or dad.
Author Helen Russell says this is another spot where Nordic
families seem to be navigating things a little bit better.
Danish parents don't have as much trouble expressing their preferences
as US parents do, For instance, take bedtime.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So this is another really good example in that parenting
books i'd read from the UK and the US all
SAIDs things that there were basically along the lines of
a little bit kind of tricking your kid into going
to bed and just going, oh, look at the time,
now you're going to be tired tomorrow, and sort of
telling your child how they feel, which isn't the naudic approach.
Instead the culture there is much more saying but you
(28:37):
know what, I as a parent, I'm kind of tired now,
I'm kind of done. So if you could go to bed,
that would be great because I'm not doing any more
parenting now. So good night, I love you, I'll see
you in the morning with her alarm and that's it.
But again it's that trusting that the child will get
to know themselves. So the idea is that a child
should be able to have autonomy over when they are tired.
So you're not telling a child that they're sleepy. They
(28:58):
may not be sleepy. They can sit in bed if
they like, they're nothing exciting in there. They can read
a book if they really want to, but they are
just in bed now because it's parent time. And again,
around food, it's more that a child should be able
to tell if they are hungry or not. So you
don't say to a child you have to finish your
plate or no pudding Instead, you trust that a child
may have an idiosyncretic biological clock, they may not be
(29:21):
hungry and we are, and that they should be in
control of things like whether they're tired or hungry, or
whether they're too warm or too cold. You trust that
the child will know that, which I found again quite
challenging as an outsider, because I grew up with the
generation that you finish your plate, and then lots of
my peers had eating disorders in their teens and twenties
(29:41):
and just not trusting our own appetites for anything. I
do feel it's quite problematic, and so I found it
very difficult, but it was something I knew. I definitely
wanted to try to put in place for my children
so that they again got this sense of themselves that
wasn't from external voices.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
It strikes me up at this in some ways as
easier for comparance. Obviously, it's harder because you want to
help your kids and make sure they're you're eating rye
and going to sleep on time and so on. But
if you give your kids that responsibility, it must be
that parents wind up feeling less overwhelmed because there's kind
of less stuff that you have to do if you're
worrying about their senses and their feelings and their needs
all the time. Like if you offload that so that
(30:19):
they do it themselves, not only do they learn how
to do it, but it's kind of less overwhelmed and
less work for you as a parent too. I think so.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
And some people have kids who are just a great
sleepers or great eaters, and that's brilliant for them. I
have three very different children. I have experienced many different approaches,
but actually the only thing I have control over is myself.
So if I say I'm tired, and that's true, I
am exhausted by about ten PM. So if I say
I'm tired now, so I need you to go to bed,
(30:47):
I'll see you in the morning and I love you,
then again that feels like I'm modeling because I'm saying, well,
I have needs, these are my needs. I need to
be done with parenting now for the day to be fresh,
to be ready for the next day. And gives a
bit of a life back to parents, which I think
so many parenting manuals or advice columns or gurus out there.
As you say, there's a lot of pressure and it
(31:08):
you can feel very guilty, and you can feel like
you're not doing the right thing, and it's never enough.
And this Nordic approach just seemed kind of easy. You
can kind of let your shoulders drop and you can
exhale finally, and you get a bit of your life back.
And if the studies are to be believed, your children
are happier, healthier, and more resilient. And I certainly see
with my own children and the children and my friends
(31:29):
and throughout the Nordic countries, all of the young people
I spoke to, that there is something in it. It
makes sense that they have this autonomy, this sense of
self worth.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
It also seems like Danish parents are just kind of
chiller generally, like they just kind of don't get as
upset about their kids resistant behavior and so on. Was
that something you observed and was that something you were
able to model yourself?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yes, you know, we all had this idea. Well, I
certainly did a vikings of these big, strong, marauding group
of people, but actually moder day vikings, it turns out,
barely raise their voices at all. I was really surprised,
and coming from a different parenting culture, I am used
to perhaps hearing in supermarkets, you know, a parent telling
their child off. I rarely hear parents raise their voices
(32:12):
in the Nordic countries. In Sweden especially, there's this very soft,
sort of soothing voice. And one of the parents I
spoke to you there, said yeah, I couldn't believe it.
She's British and she lives in Sweden and she was saying,
my neighbor's kid lock themselves in the shed and said,
you weren't going to school. And I said, did you
lose your mind?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
She said no.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I said, well, we'll try again tomorrow. I'm not sure
I would have that patience, but there seem to be
reserves of patients, and I'm thinking it's something to do
with being raised that way themselves, that they know what works.
As you say, it's kind of giving more time and
headspace back to the parents. So they just are a
little calmer. They're a bit better able to cope with
(32:50):
the challenges that parenting can throw at any of us. So, yes,
it is very calm. There is a sense that if
you raise your voice, you've lost it, You've lost that battle,
and again you're modeling to your child, and brains can
show that if you raise your voice at a child.
If you're shouting at a child, they can go into
that defensive mode where they're not actually hearing what you
say say or taking in anyway, which I thought sounded
(33:11):
very convenient when I first heard it. Better, you know,
I've seen the brain scans, I've seen the science, and
now I'm thinking, oh, yes, okay, that's true, and I'm
still not immune to doing that, but I know that
I've lost when that happens, and I know that if
I really want to get through, I have to channel
my inner Nordic parent and try and remain, can't.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I think another thing is different from America, I mean
the UK parents is that even in that shed situation
you talked about, like if you don't get the kid
to school, and sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, the
kid's not going to go to school and they won't
get the right grades and they'll never get into college.
There's this real fear of failure I think in US parenting,
but in Danish parenting system it seems like failure is
kind of okay, it's sort of just like this, oh well,
(33:48):
there's even a word for it too that I think
you really embraced, right. I think it's actually behind you
right now, the pit the pyt Oh, yeah, do you
know what's it?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, this is this idea where it means sort of
like it doesn't matter, it's fine. So yeah, along with
the trouble and the tillid this is the great word.
So you just think, oh, just let it go, it's fine.
And as a naturally repressed British woman, I have to
just remind myself of this at all times. But yeah,
I think that feeds into the parenting. As you say,
is this idea of it's not the end of the world.
(34:17):
And we know enough of studies now to know that
failure is important for growth and that it happens, you
can't avoid it, So why not just let it happen
when it happens, and hope that it happens in fairly
low stakes ways so that it doesn't happen in the
big stakes way later on. And I think again, it's
this idea where we're all worthy just because, and there's
an emotional safety net at all times, so that if
(34:38):
something goes wrong, you are still loved and held and
you will be helped back up to hopefully learn from it.
Next time.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
So one of the reasons I was especially excited to
talk to you now is that I know you've recently
left the Viking world and moved back to the UK.
So having kind of been a Danish parent for a decade,
now you're back to being the UK parent, and so
I'm curious how you keep these Danish norms in a
situation where many parents aren't following them. How do you
follow the Danish ways even if you're maybe not living
(35:07):
in Denmark at the time.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, it's been interesting and it has sort of put
it to test because when I wrote the book, I
didn't know that i'd be moving back. And as you say,
it's much easier to put all these things into practice
when you're in the Nordic countries, and when you're out
of them, that's when they're really put to the test.
But I've been going back to it, following my own
advice or following the advice of these Nordic parenting experts
and parent friends. And of course it's a different school system.
(35:28):
They've never done exams for, they've never done homework before,
but hoping that they understand that. Of course, I want
you to learn and I want you to try your best,
but it's not the end of the world. They still
have their alarm clocks. I still tell them when I'm
done for the day, you need to be in your
rooms now. And I try and make sure with all
of the activities and the business and the schedules that
we all have these days, that there is time for
(35:48):
them to just be and be really bored. Boredom's the
best thing, you know. I wouldn't have been a writer
if I hadn't had the opportunity to be bored as
a child, and I think that's something we often lose
a lot in modern lives. Also, I have one daughter.
It was really important to me that she was allowed
to still do all of the kind of marauding Viking stuff.
So I want all of my children to still be
(36:10):
able to take risks and to be active and to
be outdoors. It was really important to me that nobody
ever told my daughter that she can't climb a tree,
and I'm very happy to say that in a month and
a half in she is higher up the trees than
she's ever been. I do get some strange looks from
other parents. Someone asked me the other day, my kids
were all outside and she said, you do know it's raining, right, Yeah,
you know, Yeah, that's fine. So just trying to, I guess,
(36:34):
give them that autonomy. So I have given them all
jobs and they have things that they have to do
with the running of the household. I've got my hammer out.
I've put up a lot of shells at kid height
so they can reach everything.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
They can do everything.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
There's a cupboard where there are any time snacks that
they're allowed any time, so I don't have to be
the one providing snacks for them or their friends. And yes,
someone also asked me the other day, like, you don't
have any of your kids' pictures on the fridge. No
kids pictured it on the refrigerator. So yeah, I'm trying
to put it into practice in the non Nordic world now.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
And so you get pushed back from other parents. This
is something a lot of American parents report feeling the
most guilty about, is when they get the kind of
side eye from another mom being like, oh, you're doing that.
How do you steal yourself against that? How do you
decide like, well, I'm proud of what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Well, you know, I'm a massive geek, so I defer
to people like you. I'll defer to all the science
and say, well, actually, OECD studies, so raising children in
the Nordic mode helps them to be happier and healthier,
more resilient. And there's so much now that we know
about things like work life balance, things like school, things
like autonomy and risky play that I just tend to
be a massive geek and reel off the science. So
(37:43):
in the back of this book, I've written all the
studies just flick it in their paces that's flicking in
the other parent places, and we'll start a Viking revolution.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I love Helen's idea of starting a Viking parent revolution,
and just to recap Helen's ideas for how to do that. First,
remember that taking time for what you need as a
parent isn't selfish, it's modeling self care. When you trust
yourself in your needs, your children will learn to trust
theirs too. Second, embraced quiet, boredom and failure. If your
kid locks themselves into proverbial shed one day, know that
(38:14):
even though it feels like the end of the world,
the sun will rise again. And finally, don't let other
parents side eyes keep you from embracing your inner Viking.
In the next episode, we'll tackle the question of how
we can set healthier boundaries, both in our parenting and beyond.
We'll chat with clinical psychologist and parenting expert doctor Becky
Kennedy will share her expert tips for expressing boundaries and
(38:37):
firm but compassionate ways.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
We have some unconscious belief that, like I'm going to
set some really good boundary for my kid, my kid's
gonna be like that is amazing parenting mom. Thank you,
I do need to go to bed. Thank you for
turning off the TV. Never no child in my house
or any child I know with normal has ever said
that all that.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Next time on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie
Santo's
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