October 20, 2025 • 37 mins
Not many elite athletes talk openly about mental health, but five-time NBA All-Star Kevin Love is changing that. After a very public panic attack on the basketball court he was told to "snap out of it". But Kevin decided to discuss his "dark moments" of anxiety and depression and show that vulnerability is actually a strength.
The sports star joins Dr. Laurie to talk about overcoming generational trauma, the pressures of toxic masculinity, and how speaking up can change the game for all of us.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin as a happiness researcher. I'm grateful to live in
twenty twenty five, a time when there's been an explosion
of conversations about the importance of taking care of your
well being. But we're honestly still in the early stages
of breaking the silence around to mental health issues that
(00:36):
so many of us struggle with, and in some communities,
the stigma against dealing with these issues still runs deep. Men,
for example, are much less likely than women to seek
counseling or treatment for mental health challenges, and among athletes,
that stigma can be even higher. I've seen this firsthand
with my student athletes at Yale. Many of them hold
themselves to incredibly high standards, both in the classroom and
(00:59):
on the field. Many of them worry that admitting to
mental struggles could seem like a weakness or proof that
they're not fit to play. It often takes someone accomplished, respected,
and at the top of their game to model vulnerability
and open these conversations up for others. Fortunately, I'm lucky
to have one of those figures here today, five time
(01:19):
NBA All Star Kevin Love, who I was thrilled to
speak with even though I'm a Boston Celtics fan.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I love having these conversations because I get to learn,
you know, if you're not so against the Miami Heat,
that we can have.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
That conversation continue. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
This week marks the beginning of Kevin's eighteenth season in
the NBA. I should note that even though he was
playing for the Miami Heat at the time this was recorded,
he was recently traded to the Utah Jazz. I spoke
with Kevin about his experiences with grief, anxiety, and depression
and how he went from keeping those struggles private to
becoming a public leader in the mental health space.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So we usually start with an introduction, So can I
just have you introduce yourself and to all our listeners.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
What you do. Yeah, last night we had to describe
how we looked, you know, people with disabilities in the
blind Oh yeah, funny, Like I'm Kevin Love. I'm thirty six,
but I have gray hair and blue eyes and very tall,
very tall, and yeah, I was like I'm six. I
literally did say that. I'm like, I'm six a plus,
but my contract height once said I was six' ten
and MAYBE i, Shrunk BUT i. Digress, Sorry Now I'm
(02:23):
Kevin love ball, player professional athlete in THE nba for seventeen.
Years i'll be haating into my eighteenth. Year i'm not
the best at, intros But i'm a father of two,
girls one that just turned two years, old another that
is four, Months my Wife, kate and a beautiful six
year old puppy Named. Vestri who is you. Know they
(02:46):
say you live longer when you have. Dogs so very
good for my mental. Life so it gets me. Outside
and that's what unconditional love looks.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Like So i'm curious to hear how you get started in.
BASKETBALL i understand that a lot of. Ways it started
with your Dad's, yeah tell me about.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
That, Yeah so my dad he played three years The
university Of, oregon was drafted ninth in nineteen seventy one
by The Baltimore. Bullets played for The lakers as, well
played for The, hawks played for The spurs and short.
Stints and you, know he was my first. Hero he
was like a giant to. Me he was a protector
and he's six'. NINE imposing, i mean it would have
(03:21):
been great IN today's nba because he, could run he,
could jump he. Could shoot have photos that, you know
date back to nineteen eighty EIGHT when i, was Born
and i'm in my stroller with, the basketball and, you
know from, Then on i'm just kind of looking at
everything that my, dad did try to, emulate HIM and
i just wanted to just mimic his every move and
(03:42):
just wanted basketball to be a part of.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
My life it was truly my.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
FIRST love i can imagine that makes you love basketball.
A lot i can also imagine that comes with a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Of, pressure yeah it, certainly did Especially in portland being
not a. BIG city i was a big fish in
a small pond, very early and that came with a lot,
of expectation and with a father who played at the,
highest level compete at the, highest level having Gone To,
universus oregon just a little bit down the Road, in
eugene there was certainly a lot. Of pressure i'm still
(04:10):
learning to unpack the weight of expectations for the last
at least, twenty years because when it came to my
early teenage years in primarily, high school there was certainly
a lot. Of that so there was a lot, of
pressure and a lot Of that i'm. Thankful for but
(04:30):
on the other side, of that there was an ugliness,
to it and at, THAT age i didn't have the
language to be able to EXPRESS what i, was feeling
and especially as a, YOUNG man i just had the
playbook to bury it and compartmentalize and try and be
stoic within my masculinity and. My feelings and that drove
me to be pretty emotion phobic over the course, of time.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Which must have been especially HARD because i know you've
talked about kind of the anxiety you experienced early on.
In life you had this quote where you noted that
your default setting was often one. Of, Dread yes i'm
sure a lot of folks listening right now can recognize
the signs, of anxiety but how did that manifest for you?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Early? On well AND when i speak, about that it's
dread because my whole entire identity was built up to
be just a. Basketball player and HOW am i going
to work myself out of this depression or. This anxiety,
i'm LIKE if i can just get that one, more
accolade or we can win one, more CHAMPIONSHIP or i
can be not just the state player of, THE year
(05:30):
i got to be the national player of.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
The year we have to win the.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
National championship in, some ways it's, like masochistic like it hurts, so,
good right chase those things and, That's okay like that
can be an admirable quality in. Some cases but your
brain is going to, go back dopamine is going to.
Go down you're going to go back to. That BASELINE
and i think that's when when you think that these
things are going to for lack of a, better term,
(05:52):
fix you those anxieties and especially the dark spells, and
depression those, you know emerged. From dormancy they just come,
in waves and in some cases, when STILL when i,
have failures it can be a house of cards and
just burn down. Very quickly so that's what happened, with
me and maybe even more so with.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
High, achievers yes and this is the kind OF thing
i totally see in my Students. At, YALE right i
work with a lot of amazing. Student athletes don't if
they're going to play it for, the heat but, you know.
We'll see, but yeah but this idea that their whole
identity is caught up in, their performance that they're, you
know an, athlete first a basketball, player first, you know lacrosse,
player first and then a. Human, second right and then
(06:35):
just this like incredible perfectionism where you just have to
be perfect all. The time my students are fond OF
This dj college SONG All i Do, is win but, it's,
like well if all you do, is win then the
first time, you lose it's like the whole world has
crumbled down, Right right and it seemed like you were dealing,
with that but also this super hyper masculine culture like
where you. Grew UP but i, think also, you know
(06:56):
having your dad in the early days of the sport
where this stuff really wasn't.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Talked about and it's.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
GENERATIONAL too i mean there's some generational trauma within. MY family,
I Mean brian wilson just died. As well and, you
know my dad was the caretaker in a Bodyguard for
brian when he had struggled with. Substance abuse and just to, Be,
clear brian you're. A becaus, You Know beach boys were
started in a Garage, In, hawthorne california and it was,
(07:24):
you Know the. Love's side their cousins Were, the wilsons
and It, was brian and It, was carl and It
was dennis and it was, you know My, uncle mike
and they Created The west coast sound and you know
he dealt with his share of mental health problems as
WELL as i mean. THE loves I think i've always
been prone to melancholy and, dark spells dating back almost
(07:46):
a hundred, YEARS now i keep looking back and unpeeling
layers of all of That where, i'm, like yes this
helps tell.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
The story it.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Is generational and that was something that my DAD and
i spoke about towards the end of, his life when
he was. In hospice we really finally opened up. About
it his emotional regulation was never quite there because of
his father being a, physical father and so when my
dad was, in hospice he started seeing some of those
(08:14):
things in his dreams and a lot of those memories
had come up in a very. Ugly way but it
allowed him to be a lot more vulnerable and. Face
it but it was him coming to peace with how.
He lived the true lesson that he taught me through all,
of this as well as. Our relationship we were in
(08:35):
strange for a number, of years and, you know he
taught me two true wisdoms that were reconciliation and forgiveness.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
As well it's so great that you were able to
reconcile with your father before, he passed and also kind
of come to terms with the fact that he struggled
with emotion regulation and it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
His FAULT well i get, it, NOW yeah i, Get
it like it all. Makes sense he did the best
that he could and he, wasn't equipped and there's such.
A stigma there's, still stigma huge stigma around speaking about
mental health and WHAT am i going to do? After
basketball what if there's nothing for me after? My sport
and my dad certainly fought, as WELL and i think
he felt like he, failed OFTEN but i kept, TELLING him, I,
(09:15):
go dad all you wanted at the end of your
life was your kids to be there when, you passed
and for mom to be here when you pass and
to be at home and to die. At HOME and, I,
go dad. You're successful you. Are enough, you're here your kids.
Are here we want to. Be here and success is
having your kids come home like. We're here we got you.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So awesome, i'm like. You're successful you can die, knowing
that like.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
You're, good yeah it's so cool to hear you, say
that because it feels like that must have been such hard, one,
knowledge right like hearing about how things. Started off it really,
was like don't talk about your. Mental health even as
your dad was Dealing With, brian wilson it sounds like
his kind of way to deal with substance use and
mental health issues, was like let's get you on, the
court let's. Exercise more and this was something THAT you,
(10:00):
i know took on early.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
On.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Too right we often talk On The happiness lab podcast
about how exercise is really good for, mental health but
it seems like your exercise pushed, into like, you know
trauma of perfections than his.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Mental, HEALTH yes i think that in SOME ways i
was killing two birds with. One STONE and i do
love to, work out but there is still something There that,
i'm LIKE am i doing THIS because i have to?
Be Perfect or i'm doing THIS because i have to
stay in?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
My sport and early on that was in some ways.
Really reinforced because you, get very very good at. Your
schools when did you first realize that you could be,
a professional.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
Kind of like?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Your dad my best friend's dad tells it all.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
The time first day, at preschool driving us home and,
you know he kind, of, asked, you know what do
you want to be when you? GROW up, I said
i'm just gonna be IN the nba like, my dad
and he tells a story all the time and talks
about how he's like. This kid there's just something about
HIM where i. ACTUALLY believed i really truly. Believed him
(10:58):
i'm being honest. WITH you i always. Believed it there
was no doubt in. My MIND and i think it.
Helped that, you know the. DOCTOR said i heard them
SAY when i, was young and, the pediatrician, they, said.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Well he's gonna be. Very tall this is going to
be a. TALL kid I knew i.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
HAD that i liked the idea of being tall like,
my dad and being a basketball player WAS all i
ever wanted. To be but it was probably around eighth
grade and my freshman year of high SCHOOL when I
know i played up with. MY brother i was playing
two grades up, with him AND then i was playing
against college players and then. Pro PLAYERS once i got into,
(11:33):
high SCHOOL and i thought, to MYSELF if i just
keep on this same track and keep this, SINGULAR focus
i can have a lot. Of success and if you
have to have a little bit, of luck, it's timing,
it's culture, it's demographic, it's luck it's all of. These
THINGS but i certainly had.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
That definitely involved, some luck but also involved a tremendous card. Working,
skill yeah you became Super successful ariel in, your career,
You Know, all star Twenty Ten, world champion twenty Ten tall.
Olympic gold but in SOME ways i feel like that
luck was kind of contrasted with a lot of tough
stuff that happened early on in. YOUR career, i know
in twenty thirteen you had a. Huge, hit yes tell me.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
WHAT happened i just never went through the grieving process with,
my grandmother and she was the. Corner stop she was
like the pillar of. Our family she lived right next
door to us our, entire life and she was just.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
So special she didn't. Need much she just.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Wanted family she wanted to volunteer at. The school she
wanted to help raise, my sister who was a. Premi
baby as, you know my dad worked a backbreaking job at.
A warehouse but she was just the absolute rock and the.
Best WOMAN and i DON'T think i appreciated it or
had the presence of mind to lean into that type
(12:49):
of a figure in, our life and she was. Right
there so there was so. MUCH regret i talked about
it all. The. Time regret it's more tied up in
inaction rather, Than, action like of course there's THINGS that
i did and especially offloaded hurt on people that were
the closest to me or just did not. Deserve IT
so i certainly regret, that action but the inaction of
not spending more time with.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
My grandmother and you go.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
To her little cottage and you go around there and
you just see photos of like everything that her family had,
ever done because she understood what. Really MATTERED and i
DON'T think i appreciated. THAT enough i didn't go back
when she was cremated or get to grieve with my
(13:32):
family back Home. IN portland i just kept on being
with the Team. IN minnesota i was there for. SIX
years i just kept being with them and lost myself.
IN basketball i was just running. FROM it i didn't
want to go to the extremities of, those FEELINGS so
i never got to, unpack that and that manifested in
my body in. Different ways the body and they. Keep
(13:53):
score everybody loves to, say that but it's. So true in,
some way shape, or form that's going to have to.
Come out and, for me it was in, panic attacks
it was, rage fits it, was agoraphobia and not wanting
to go out for maybe fear of public embarrassment or
FELT like i was doing.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Something wrong and.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
That must have been a really awful one, to punch
because my sense, is like you had, her loss but
then you also had kind of a loss on. THE
court i understand that you suffered an injury pretty soon, after,
THAT right, i DID.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
And i broke, my HAND and i only played eighteen games,
that YEAR and, i was, you know, suicidal gestures suicidal
ideation didn't ever leave. My apartment it was kind of
LIKE how i was often. GROWING up i remember just
being my Room and i'd go, To school i'd go to, basketball.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Practice And then i'd just kind of be. In there.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
YOU know i looked at my dad, as well not
wanting to get out, of bed and just kind of,
lay there THROW the, tv on be in a, dark
room sleep, often early, and often, you know go eat
at the dinner table and my mom's just. FINISHING up
i would sit there with Her and i'd, be like,
you know. Where's dad and.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
In some ways this must have been worse because this
is now on the, professional stage where you're in, your
room not coming out kind of recovering from. An injury
and what was it like going. Through that did you
talk to anybody about what you're Going?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
To no and my agent and he always talks. TO
me i talked, to you is, Your friend i'm gonna
talk to you as. Your agent but he didn't know
how to speak. To me but he would, just say,
you know snap out. Of it, I'm like i've never
thought of. That before, oh yeah let me just snap out.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
OF it, i mean it's just remarkable how little people
get how mental health issues.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Really, work yes but now, it's like, you know, My Agent,
jeff schwartz he has three beautiful daughters who Are like
I'm uncle kevin NOW and i love them that he,
gets it and. They're athletes, so again he's evolved and
he understands it. Far more but in, TWENTY thirteen i
wasn't equipped at all to deal, with IT and i
(15:44):
didn't have the language to, express IT and i was
just in bed, a lot in a dark room. A,
Lot eventually kevin found a way to heal and to
share his story, with others but as is often, the
case things had to hit rock bottom before they.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Got better when we get back from, The break i'll
Talk with kevin about his very public panic attack and
the viral art that detailed. His Experience The happiness lab
will be back in.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
A moment.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
And so how did you wind?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Up, feeling well it WASN'T until i really started doing.
The work and, YOU know i it's not TO say
i didn't have these like great moments and Times when
i'd come out. Of it, you know maybe it was,
three weeks maybe it was three months of these really,
dark spells and my best friends. Didn't know but things
(16:43):
got so much worse in our seventeen. Eighteen season, you
know that very public panic attack and mental health EPISODE
that i know we'll speak. About happened it got a
lot worse before it. Got, better, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Yeah so what happened to that season to make things get?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Worse again it was unpacking the pressures of expectations of
fifteen to twenty years and the weight of, you know
an organization and ownership and the front office put in
pressure that we have to win and. Win now and
while we love that because it drove us to do these.
Great things we went to four straight finals from fifteen.
(17:22):
Through eighteen we won in twenty sixteen first major sports Championship.
In cleveland but, YOU know i was at that time
not speaking to. MY parents i was strange. From them,
you know within my my love life and my, personal
life things had, gone wrong as well as always feeling
these things and never facing it head on and not
(17:42):
going to therapy or having a trusted CONFIDENT that i could.
SPEAK to i DON'T think i wanted to admit that
there was. A problem i FELT like i was a
failure of even having these feelings and that idea of
masculinity and. Showing emotion of course i'd get angry and
get a technical foul and that sort, of thing but
in terms of, saying like, You know i'm at, home
(18:02):
Crying or i'm at home and my anxiety is coming
up in a way that is, SEVERELY unhealthy i, just
said like everybody else has these problems worse, Than ME
and i was, comparing GRIEF but i was also withholding
compassion for myself and not having grace. Within THAT and
i believe that nobody benefits from THAT that i just
(18:26):
all bottled up into a moment and it was PUBLIC
and i was on, the court it WAS. ON tv,
i mean we were a team that had nationally, televised
games and, You know i'd had these, feelings before these
type of things, That Happened but i've always just been
able to remove myself from a situation where have like
rage fits in my space at home right like it
(18:46):
manifested in. DIFFERENT ways i had nowhere, to GO so
i just ran to the locker room or tried to
ESCAPE like i. Always did but this is around my
teammates that we're back in the. Locker room it was around.
OUR trainers i Feel like i'm having. CARDIAC arrest i
can't catch, MY breath i can't get oxygen to. MY
(19:07):
brain I don't i've never had this type of attack,
happened before so this is.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
LIFE threatening i end.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Up passed out on the floor of our, Head Trainer steve,
spirou's office and he's the one who finds. Me THERE
so i ended. Up leaving, after that they put me.
On oxygen i'm able to sit back up think, of
myself what the hell? JUST happened i go and they
run several tests At the, Cleveland clinic who's and still
is just, so amazing and everything checks out like there's.
(19:37):
Nothing Wrong but i'm asking, the question what?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Just?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Happened then is this going to? Happen again who's going
to know. About it so it's like this negative feedback
LOOP that i don't Know if i'm going to, survive
professionally and then how is that going to now impact
not only my livelihood but this safe space that was
once the. Basketball court so it got a lot worse
before it. Got BETTER but i think there is a
(20:02):
lot of good that came. From that it made, Me,
say okay things aren't.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
ADDING up i need to.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Change something so it was my FIRST time i had gone,
to THERAPY and i was incredibly lucky to find a.
Great therapist he just said in my medication, this morning
so RESPECT but i had finally come to Terms, that
okay it's time to start doing.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
The work so amazing to hear you talk about this
transition to understanding therapy and being more, self compassionate because
the amazing thing about the oxygen mask that you put
on is having put yours, on first you're now able
to help others put their oxygen. Mask on, YOU know
i know you as AN amazing, nba PLAYER but i
first got really familiar with you when you became like
a huge mental.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Health advocate tell me about.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
The article that you put out in, twenty eighteen because
that WAS when i first started hearing your name and
learning about what you're.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Up, To right so, FAST forward i go. To therapy
it Was An all star. That year it's My Fifth all,
star APPEARANCE and i had a great, year statistically, very,
efficient statistically producing at a very. High line and then
a couple of. THINGS happened i had Another Attack oklahoma
(21:15):
CITY that i am recently just starting to speak about because,
You know i've had to unpack my team kind of
at the time turning. On me after, THAT game i
had mispracticed the, next day and everybody, was, like, no,
no we need to, address THIS and i just wasn't ready,
(21:36):
to expose LIKE what i was going through at. The
time we LEFT for I Think, san antonio AND again i.
Felt isolated my anxiety went absolutely through, the ROOF and
i still had to go out there, and compete AND
so i FELT like i was on. An island and that,
same trip we Were, IN detroit i broke, My hand
so again the game was taken away. FROM me i
had NO outlet i know where. To go, It's, like
(21:58):
okay here's, a game we're paying this guy, Helps money
we're supposed to go to. The finals we have no
idea what's going on with. Our teammate we feel like
we can't. TRUST him i think it was that as
well as our our. MEDIA availability i started getting questions
in front of a group about my, mental health and that,
(22:19):
scared ME and i didn't want anybody to tell my story.
BUT me i had to have it be in my,
own WORDS and i told, MY agent i wrote, the
same made, some adjustments only wanted to take it so
far at that POINT because i.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Was scared it's.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
REALLY scared i didn't know what this was going. To
do is this going to? End everything is this going
to end my? Basketball career and what is pressing send going?
To DO but i THINK one i was. Just exhausted it,
was EXHAUSTED and i was playing this character and putting on.
THIS facade i was just tired of struggling and being
(22:57):
in a, terrible place in silence and in. The shadows
so press end and then my life inherently.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Changed forever the article published in twenty eighteen In The
player's tribune Was titled everyone is Going. Through something, In
it kevin acknowledged his mental, health struggles describe the panic
attack as a turning point and his decision to seek
help and encourage others facing similar challenges to do. The
same the Reaction to kevin's piece was. OVERWHELMINGLY positive i
(23:27):
would have never.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
EXPECTED it, i thought in, the comments people are going, to,
say like you're, a bitch and how are these guys
going to be able to be with him out there
on the core when he knows he struggles with this
and is he just going to leave?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
ANOTHER game, i mean.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
It's primitive we're so it's ingrained in, us psychologically like
to perceive. Threat FIRST and i think, as athletes criticism
is a tax. On success if we do decide to
go through the comments and we want to respond, to
people and we go through and it's all these great
things and it's like we're relating to people and there's
(24:04):
empathy or there's just like you know that, raw rah,
like yes like this, is great and then.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It's like, you know you suck and we're like that's.
The one, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
OVERWHELMINGLY positive i think we had ten thousand plus emails
in the first week we had. TO create i mean
my inboxes, were full my texts, were full and then
we had to create a separate email because there was
just so. Many people there were so many people that
had reached out and shared, their stories whether it be
(24:34):
their first hand experience with their own mental health or
their child's. Mental health that was incredibly. Eye opening. Press sad,
that morning we had left for a multiple game road
TRIP and i was back playing at. That point we
meet at the plane three, pm DEPARTURE and i remember
just sitting in, my seat throwing my, hoodie on throwing my.
(24:56):
Headphones on, i'm like what are my teammates? Gonna think
what are my teammates going? To THINK but I Remember
kyle korber coming across the aisle and shaking my hand
and just telling me that there's going to be. Something
here you're going to make a huge difference in. People's
lives and that was my first time where my shoulders had,
just dropped like maybe this is going to. Be okay
(25:17):
we'd gone through. THE flight i slept and might just
like turned to the side towards the window and, you
know ACTED like i. Wasn't available i'm always the first off.
THE plane i like to just go and get settled
on the bus and sitting there the, whole time like
just get me to, my room the, bus stops everybody,
gets off and then it's, You know lebron who comes,
to me just kind of shakes my hand in like
(25:40):
knowing approval and kind of wraps me up in the.
Big hug and that was, you know you spend almost
more time with your teammates in that space than you
do your, actual family so they. Become family but that
just pushed our our friendship and our brotherhood into.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
NEW space, i mean you're making it such that any
basketball player can be more than a, basketball.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
Player right they can, be.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Vulnerable they, can struggle and also they can have an identity.
BEYOND it i think one of the amazing things is
that now forever you to be known not just as
an amazing, basketball player also as an advocate for these.
IMPORTANT issues, i mean what does that feel like now
to be kind of to have come from being so
scared about talking, about this from such a hyper masculine
culture to now being in some ways the face of
(26:21):
talking about mental health.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And right there is a weight, to it but at the,
same time just speaking about it gives me LEVITY because
i get to be an.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Open book, I'm allowed i'm empowered to be.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
Like open, The curtain, you're like. Curtains, open yeah this IS.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Who i am and this is what. You, get honestly
if you don't, like it that's your problem because my
intention is to help the next person and it's just
authentic TO who, i am and it IS who i want,
to Be and i'm, not PERFECT like i think that's
the beauty of. It too it's like, with basketball you
can wake up every day and, Be like i'm going to.
Get better you can never get too big to do the.
Little things you can never get too big to refine.
(26:56):
Your skills and THAT'S how i feel about what we're
doing here in.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
This space it's going.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
To take a, long time but, LONG term i think,
legacy naturally as a, basketball player you talk about that word,
A lot But now i've started to think about like
legacy virtues versus.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Eulogy virtues it's been.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Deaths Obviously, brian wilson, my FATHER and i think about
what are people.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Going to SAY when. I pass are they going to say.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
He BROKE the NBA and aba merger for double doubles
when he played in his. Third, Season, No no they're
going to talk about how he made. People feel they're
going to talk about, His relationships they're going to talk
about how he made an impact on other. PEOPLE'S lives, i, mean,
like sure they'll touch. On basketball but what my hope
(27:47):
IS when i get to, that POINT if i just
be my authentic self and be more comfortable in my
own skin by exposing, these things that when that, time
comes it's going to be more about eulogy. Than legacy
but my hope would BE if i keep living my
life with that type, of intention that the universe will
unfold as.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
It should so what does living with that kind of
intention look Like for? Kevin today after, the break we'll
talk About how kevin is trying to break the stigma
for the next generation. Of Athletes The happiness lab will be.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Right BACK.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
When Nba Star kevin love finally went public about his mental,
health struggles the response. Was overwhelming it was clear that
people were hungry to change the stigma that so many.
Athletes Face Enter The Kevin, love fund a nonprofit dedicated
to helping the next generation develop the skills they need
to manage mental. Health challenges and.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
We wanted to support both physical and, emotional wellbeing and
we wanted to just keep having these conversations to eliminate
the stigma and provide resources educate. As WELL and i
think that education space IS where i look back and
coming into, high school all of, those, expectations, athletics college
you have to consider those things much. Younger NOW but
(29:09):
I know i didn't have, The LANGUAGE but, i thought
if we can learn about physical health and, sexual health
why aren't we being taught about emotions and? Mental health
why aren't we putting this into. The CLASSROOM so i
thought it would be really meaningful because everybody's going through
(29:30):
something that you. Can't see how can we implement this
into the classroom starting at that age and create a
curriculum that's modeled. Around vulnerability Sarah and elier educators have
done such an incredible job in rounding out this curriculum
and continuing to add to it and get it taught
in many different countries and many, different languages and continuing to.
(29:52):
Grow it, right now we're working on getting it into
the third largest school district in, the country And. That's
miami part of.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
This new curriculum involves prompts designed to help students open
up about the things they're, struggling with but teachers get
to answer first modeling what a response looks like and
showing that adults are. VULNERABLE too I asked kevin to
tell me about an experience from early in the programs,
develop it one that made him realize just how powerful
this work.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Could be, you know the teacher. Models it they go around.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
The classroom and the amazing part about that day was
the basketball team and some of the football team was in,
that classroom and once we got, to them, you know
they were kind of hiding, AND like i don't want,
to share but we just kept going around and then
we got, to THEM and i remember the first share
he had, talked about, YOU know i come to school
(30:40):
to get food and my dad's, not around and my
mom's having to work with my SISTERS and i don't
get enough time, with her and it's just.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Two Jobs and i'm, just like this.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Is amazing like everybody's open amazed in, that. Classroom right
they can amise, each other they can help, each other
and this is.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
An athlete like at, THAT age i WAS like i wasn't.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Doing THAT but i just want to tell everybody, out
there like it's a free curriculum and so this is
something that you can integrate into. Any school, you know
this is a you know as potential to really have
a huge impact on a. Kid's life and it's just
early intervention in a time where, you know in your
early teens you start to really feel what being self.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Conscious IS like i.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Certainly did it's, early intervention but it might also be. Generational. Intervention,
yes yes those kids on the football team who started
talking about how the food and security makes, them feel
that's going to mean that it's easier for them to do.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
It right they have a kid who's on the football, team.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yearsly and it just goes to show you WITH what
i said OR what i wrote in, that article is
that everybody's going through something that you, can't, See right
so let's. Be compassionate let's allow ourselves to be a.
Sounding board pay, it forward if you want to use.
Your voice there is room for. Generational healing kid brought
(32:02):
a sign to a game that said everybody's going, through
SOMETHING and i told our security, or like grab him,
for me grab him and his family. For me and
he came BACK and i just spoke to the FAMILY
and i started to realize through what they said that
you're not just changing the, kid's life you're changing how
(32:22):
he's relating with, his, friends potentially, his team, his teachers,
his family. His community what is changing that one life actually?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Look like what does?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
IT do i don't know if we can quantify it
or it's something that you, can measure but there's a
LOT of i think healing to be had through, all
that and it's not just that. One person it has
a ripple effect that is just an. Amazing thing and
seeing it firsthand is.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
IT'S inspiring i remember when your article came out and
it get sent to me by like tons and tons
of my students and many of my student athletes, Were
like i'm so happy he. Said it because only you
know you're an all star you can say it can't
be somebody who hasn't achieved the things that, you did which.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Is, sad yeah but it doesn't meant.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So much we've worked with a lot of student athletes
and it's. Been amazing and after they come out of
college and they struggle, With identity but how do you
help these student athletes and their coaches have these conversations
because you know these colleges or institutions that.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
You know now money.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Is involved it makes it so much More complex at,
that age a kid is even. More worried it has
even more Pressure, about OKAY if i expose THIS or i,
tell this like this college isn't going to, Want me
they're going to take away. My, scholarship yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Not UNLIKE what i had at the at the.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Highest level But also i've already, made It like i'm
already in. THIS space i can't imagine the pressures but
also the pain of having to feel like you need
to hide that with your coaches or with, you know
these people that are potentially going to give you an
opportunity of a lifetime and in high school that might
be the only chance that.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
You HAVE but i think you opening up, the conversation
it MEANS that i think college high school coaches will have.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
The conversation so That's the, it's like, you know the teacher,
models it it has to be. The coaches i'm very
proud to be part OF the nba who's backed us
so much in this and been driving, for us and
they'll continue to evolve in. This space, but Really The miami,
Heat coach Spolstra coach bo he's so open to these
conversations and sometimes he'll just bring it in and be like.
(34:34):
Blackout day nobody, come in get, some sun get some.
Vitamin date it's good, for, you right spend time with,
your families play the long game because we.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Need that it's an.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Unforgiving league so when he, models that and he's one
of the greatest coaches of, all time and we Have Doctor,
derek anderson who's our licensed therapist, on staff. He's amazing
so that also gives me hope that that will then
trickle down to college athletes as well as high. School
athletes and there's always going to be exceptions to. The
(35:04):
rule there's going to be people that aren't open. To
this but, you know vulnerability. Is.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Superpower strength well.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Also raises a question of like what's actually going to make?
Play better and we could say play better on the court,
that night but also, play better, you know having a
long career of longevity with your injuries where you, don't
know blow yourself up and get canceled on. Social media you're, so,
ANGRY right, I mean i think we really need to
have a conversation of whether or.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Not it could be a.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Better, PRODUCT well i think even just, you know in
terms of like, physical performance we figured. That out, you
know people get. Rest days, you know you, take. BREAKS
right i think we've come to realize that the body
is not just this crazy machine that you, push, push, push.
RIGHT right i think when we come to think about
people's mental health their human performance side, of things we
probably need to be a little bit more compassionate, there
(35:53):
too and ultimately like the result will be. Better off
thank you so much for all the great work that
you're doing and where can folks learn About The kevin
love fun kevinlovefund.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Dot org and thank you as well for being. AN
ally i always say like we're, tribal beings we should
start acting, like it and we are part of a.
Tribe together this is. Community driven we all want to
be on the winning side. Of HISTORY but i think it's.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
ALL hope i hope we're finally at the beginning of
a mental, health revolution but there's still lots of work
that each of us can do to fight. The, stigma
First as kevin's viral article, put it remember everyone is
going through something and a little compassion can go a very.
Long way so if you're a teacher or, a coach
(36:37):
or a parent or, a leader it's vital that you
model vulnerability to the people who look up, to you
and give yourself a little. Compassion too by, doing so
we can help the next generation break the cycle and
feel safe having tough. Conversations Openly The happiness lab will
soon be back with A spectacular. Halloween episode we'll be
(36:58):
exploring the connection between fear. And joy we'll speak to
a behavioral scientist who's studying why certain people just love
to Be scared. All that next time On The, Happiness
Lab Doctor laurie santos
Pushkin as a happiness researcher. I'm grateful to live in
twenty twenty five, a time when there's been an explosion
of conversations about the importance of taking care of your
well being. But we're honestly still in the early stages
of breaking the silence around to mental health issues that
(00:36):
so many of us struggle with, and in some communities,
the stigma against dealing with these issues still runs deep. Men,
for example, are much less likely than women to seek
counseling or treatment for mental health challenges, and among athletes,
that stigma can be even higher. I've seen this firsthand
with my student athletes at Yale. Many of them hold
themselves to incredibly high standards, both in the classroom and
(00:59):
on the field. Many of them worry that admitting to
mental struggles could seem like a weakness or proof that
they're not fit to play. It often takes someone accomplished, respected,
and at the top of their game to model vulnerability
and open these conversations up for others. Fortunately, I'm lucky
to have one of those figures here today, five time
(01:19):
NBA All Star Kevin Love, who I was thrilled to
speak with even though I'm a Boston Celtics fan.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I love having these conversations because I get to learn,
you know, if you're not so against the Miami Heat,
that we can have.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
That conversation continue. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
This week marks the beginning of Kevin's eighteenth season in
the NBA. I should note that even though he was
playing for the Miami Heat at the time this was recorded,
he was recently traded to the Utah Jazz. I spoke
with Kevin about his experiences with grief, anxiety, and depression
and how he went from keeping those struggles private to
becoming a public leader in the mental health space.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So we usually start with an introduction, So can I
just have you introduce yourself and to all our listeners.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
What you do. Yeah, last night we had to describe
how we looked, you know, people with disabilities in the
blind Oh yeah, funny, Like I'm Kevin Love. I'm thirty six,
but I have gray hair and blue eyes and very tall,
very tall, and yeah, I was like I'm six. I
literally did say that. I'm like, I'm six a plus,
but my contract height once said I was six' ten
and MAYBE i, Shrunk BUT i. Digress, Sorry Now I'm
(02:23):
Kevin love ball, player professional athlete in THE nba for seventeen.
Years i'll be haating into my eighteenth. Year i'm not
the best at, intros But i'm a father of two,
girls one that just turned two years, old another that
is four, Months my Wife, kate and a beautiful six
year old puppy Named. Vestri who is you. Know they
(02:46):
say you live longer when you have. Dogs so very
good for my mental. Life so it gets me. Outside
and that's what unconditional love looks.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Like So i'm curious to hear how you get started in.
BASKETBALL i understand that a lot of. Ways it started
with your Dad's, yeah tell me about.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
That, Yeah so my dad he played three years The
university Of, oregon was drafted ninth in nineteen seventy one
by The Baltimore. Bullets played for The lakers as, well
played for The, hawks played for The spurs and short.
Stints and you, know he was my first. Hero he
was like a giant to. Me he was a protector
and he's six'. NINE imposing, i mean it would have
(03:21):
been great IN today's nba because he, could run he,
could jump he. Could shoot have photos that, you know
date back to nineteen eighty EIGHT when i, was Born
and i'm in my stroller with, the basketball and, you
know from, Then on i'm just kind of looking at
everything that my, dad did try to, emulate HIM and
i just wanted to just mimic his every move and
(03:42):
just wanted basketball to be a part of.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
My life it was truly my.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
FIRST love i can imagine that makes you love basketball.
A lot i can also imagine that comes with a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Of, pressure yeah it, certainly did Especially in portland being
not a. BIG city i was a big fish in
a small pond, very early and that came with a lot,
of expectation and with a father who played at the,
highest level compete at the, highest level having Gone To,
universus oregon just a little bit down the Road, in
eugene there was certainly a lot. Of pressure i'm still
(04:10):
learning to unpack the weight of expectations for the last
at least, twenty years because when it came to my
early teenage years in primarily, high school there was certainly
a lot. Of that so there was a lot, of
pressure and a lot Of that i'm. Thankful for but
(04:30):
on the other side, of that there was an ugliness,
to it and at, THAT age i didn't have the
language to be able to EXPRESS what i, was feeling
and especially as a, YOUNG man i just had the
playbook to bury it and compartmentalize and try and be
stoic within my masculinity and. My feelings and that drove
me to be pretty emotion phobic over the course, of time.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Which must have been especially HARD because i know you've
talked about kind of the anxiety you experienced early on.
In life you had this quote where you noted that
your default setting was often one. Of, Dread yes i'm
sure a lot of folks listening right now can recognize
the signs, of anxiety but how did that manifest for you?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Early? On well AND when i speak, about that it's
dread because my whole entire identity was built up to
be just a. Basketball player and HOW am i going
to work myself out of this depression or. This anxiety,
i'm LIKE if i can just get that one, more
accolade or we can win one, more CHAMPIONSHIP or i
can be not just the state player of, THE year
(05:30):
i got to be the national player of.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
The year we have to win the.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
National championship in, some ways it's, like masochistic like it hurts, so,
good right chase those things and, That's okay like that
can be an admirable quality in. Some cases but your
brain is going to, go back dopamine is going to.
Go down you're going to go back to. That BASELINE
and i think that's when when you think that these
things are going to for lack of a, better term,
(05:52):
fix you those anxieties and especially the dark spells, and
depression those, you know emerged. From dormancy they just come,
in waves and in some cases, when STILL when i,
have failures it can be a house of cards and
just burn down. Very quickly so that's what happened, with
me and maybe even more so with.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
High, achievers yes and this is the kind OF thing
i totally see in my Students. At, YALE right i
work with a lot of amazing. Student athletes don't if
they're going to play it for, the heat but, you know.
We'll see, but yeah but this idea that their whole
identity is caught up in, their performance that they're, you
know an, athlete first a basketball, player first, you know lacrosse,
player first and then a. Human, second right and then
(06:35):
just this like incredible perfectionism where you just have to
be perfect all. The time my students are fond OF
This dj college SONG All i Do, is win but, it's,
like well if all you do, is win then the
first time, you lose it's like the whole world has
crumbled down, Right right and it seemed like you were dealing,
with that but also this super hyper masculine culture like
where you. Grew UP but i, think also, you know
(06:56):
having your dad in the early days of the sport
where this stuff really wasn't.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Talked about and it's.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
GENERATIONAL too i mean there's some generational trauma within. MY family,
I Mean brian wilson just died. As well and, you
know my dad was the caretaker in a Bodyguard for
brian when he had struggled with. Substance abuse and just to, Be,
clear brian you're. A becaus, You Know beach boys were
started in a Garage, In, hawthorne california and it was,
(07:24):
you Know the. Love's side their cousins Were, the wilsons
and It, was brian and It, was carl and It
was dennis and it was, you know My, uncle mike
and they Created The west coast sound and you know
he dealt with his share of mental health problems as
WELL as i mean. THE loves I think i've always
been prone to melancholy and, dark spells dating back almost
(07:46):
a hundred, YEARS now i keep looking back and unpeeling
layers of all of That where, i'm, like yes this
helps tell.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
The story it.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Is generational and that was something that my DAD and
i spoke about towards the end of, his life when
he was. In hospice we really finally opened up. About
it his emotional regulation was never quite there because of
his father being a, physical father and so when my
dad was, in hospice he started seeing some of those
(08:14):
things in his dreams and a lot of those memories
had come up in a very. Ugly way but it
allowed him to be a lot more vulnerable and. Face
it but it was him coming to peace with how.
He lived the true lesson that he taught me through all,
of this as well as. Our relationship we were in
(08:35):
strange for a number, of years and, you know he
taught me two true wisdoms that were reconciliation and forgiveness.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
As well it's so great that you were able to
reconcile with your father before, he passed and also kind
of come to terms with the fact that he struggled
with emotion regulation and it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
His FAULT well i get, it, NOW yeah i, Get
it like it all. Makes sense he did the best
that he could and he, wasn't equipped and there's such.
A stigma there's, still stigma huge stigma around speaking about
mental health and WHAT am i going to do? After
basketball what if there's nothing for me after? My sport
and my dad certainly fought, as WELL and i think
he felt like he, failed OFTEN but i kept, TELLING him, I,
(09:15):
go dad all you wanted at the end of your
life was your kids to be there when, you passed
and for mom to be here when you pass and
to be at home and to die. At HOME and, I,
go dad. You're successful you. Are enough, you're here your kids.
Are here we want to. Be here and success is
having your kids come home like. We're here we got you.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So awesome, i'm like. You're successful you can die, knowing
that like.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
You're, good yeah it's so cool to hear you, say
that because it feels like that must have been such hard, one,
knowledge right like hearing about how things. Started off it really,
was like don't talk about your. Mental health even as
your dad was Dealing With, brian wilson it sounds like
his kind of way to deal with substance use and
mental health issues, was like let's get you on, the
court let's. Exercise more and this was something THAT you,
(10:00):
i know took on early.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
On.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Too right we often talk On The happiness lab podcast
about how exercise is really good for, mental health but
it seems like your exercise pushed, into like, you know
trauma of perfections than his.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Mental, HEALTH yes i think that in SOME ways i
was killing two birds with. One STONE and i do
love to, work out but there is still something There that,
i'm LIKE am i doing THIS because i have to?
Be Perfect or i'm doing THIS because i have to
stay in?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
My sport and early on that was in some ways.
Really reinforced because you, get very very good at. Your
schools when did you first realize that you could be,
a professional.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
Kind of like?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Your dad my best friend's dad tells it all.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
The time first day, at preschool driving us home and,
you know he kind, of, asked, you know what do
you want to be when you? GROW up, I said
i'm just gonna be IN the nba like, my dad
and he tells a story all the time and talks
about how he's like. This kid there's just something about
HIM where i. ACTUALLY believed i really truly. Believed him
(10:58):
i'm being honest. WITH you i always. Believed it there
was no doubt in. My MIND and i think it.
Helped that, you know the. DOCTOR said i heard them
SAY when i, was young and, the pediatrician, they, said.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Well he's gonna be. Very tall this is going to
be a. TALL kid I knew i.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
HAD that i liked the idea of being tall like,
my dad and being a basketball player WAS all i
ever wanted. To be but it was probably around eighth
grade and my freshman year of high SCHOOL when I
know i played up with. MY brother i was playing
two grades up, with him AND then i was playing
against college players and then. Pro PLAYERS once i got into,
(11:33):
high SCHOOL and i thought, to MYSELF if i just
keep on this same track and keep this, SINGULAR focus
i can have a lot. Of success and if you
have to have a little bit, of luck, it's timing,
it's culture, it's demographic, it's luck it's all of. These
THINGS but i certainly had.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
That definitely involved, some luck but also involved a tremendous card. Working,
skill yeah you became Super successful ariel in, your career,
You Know, all star Twenty Ten, world champion twenty Ten tall.
Olympic gold but in SOME ways i feel like that
luck was kind of contrasted with a lot of tough
stuff that happened early on in. YOUR career, i know
in twenty thirteen you had a. Huge, hit yes tell me.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
WHAT happened i just never went through the grieving process with,
my grandmother and she was the. Corner stop she was
like the pillar of. Our family she lived right next
door to us our, entire life and she was just.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
So special she didn't. Need much she just.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Wanted family she wanted to volunteer at. The school she
wanted to help raise, my sister who was a. Premi
baby as, you know my dad worked a backbreaking job at.
A warehouse but she was just the absolute rock and the.
Best WOMAN and i DON'T think i appreciated it or
had the presence of mind to lean into that type
(12:49):
of a figure in, our life and she was. Right
there so there was so. MUCH regret i talked about
it all. The. Time regret it's more tied up in
inaction rather, Than, action like of course there's THINGS that
i did and especially offloaded hurt on people that were
the closest to me or just did not. Deserve IT
so i certainly regret, that action but the inaction of
not spending more time with.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
My grandmother and you go.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
To her little cottage and you go around there and
you just see photos of like everything that her family had,
ever done because she understood what. Really MATTERED and i
DON'T think i appreciated. THAT enough i didn't go back
when she was cremated or get to grieve with my
(13:32):
family back Home. IN portland i just kept on being
with the Team. IN minnesota i was there for. SIX
years i just kept being with them and lost myself.
IN basketball i was just running. FROM it i didn't
want to go to the extremities of, those FEELINGS so
i never got to, unpack that and that manifested in
my body in. Different ways the body and they. Keep
(13:53):
score everybody loves to, say that but it's. So true in,
some way shape, or form that's going to have to.
Come out and, for me it was in, panic attacks
it was, rage fits it, was agoraphobia and not wanting
to go out for maybe fear of public embarrassment or
FELT like i was doing.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Something wrong and.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
That must have been a really awful one, to punch
because my sense, is like you had, her loss but
then you also had kind of a loss on. THE
court i understand that you suffered an injury pretty soon, after,
THAT right, i DID.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
And i broke, my HAND and i only played eighteen games,
that YEAR and, i was, you know, suicidal gestures suicidal
ideation didn't ever leave. My apartment it was kind of
LIKE how i was often. GROWING up i remember just
being my Room and i'd go, To school i'd go to, basketball.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Practice And then i'd just kind of be. In there.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
YOU know i looked at my dad, as well not
wanting to get out, of bed and just kind of,
lay there THROW the, tv on be in a, dark
room sleep, often early, and often, you know go eat
at the dinner table and my mom's just. FINISHING up
i would sit there with Her and i'd, be like,
you know. Where's dad and.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
In some ways this must have been worse because this
is now on the, professional stage where you're in, your
room not coming out kind of recovering from. An injury
and what was it like going. Through that did you
talk to anybody about what you're Going?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
To no and my agent and he always talks. TO
me i talked, to you is, Your friend i'm gonna
talk to you as. Your agent but he didn't know
how to speak. To me but he would, just say,
you know snap out. Of it, I'm like i've never
thought of. That before, oh yeah let me just snap out.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
OF it, i mean it's just remarkable how little people
get how mental health issues.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Really, work yes but now, it's like, you know, My Agent,
jeff schwartz he has three beautiful daughters who Are like
I'm uncle kevin NOW and i love them that he,
gets it and. They're athletes, so again he's evolved and
he understands it. Far more but in, TWENTY thirteen i
wasn't equipped at all to deal, with IT and i
(15:44):
didn't have the language to, express IT and i was
just in bed, a lot in a dark room. A,
Lot eventually kevin found a way to heal and to
share his story, with others but as is often, the
case things had to hit rock bottom before they.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Got better when we get back from, The break i'll
Talk with kevin about his very public panic attack and
the viral art that detailed. His Experience The happiness lab
will be back in.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
A moment.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
And so how did you wind?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Up, feeling well it WASN'T until i really started doing.
The work and, YOU know i it's not TO say
i didn't have these like great moments and Times when
i'd come out. Of it, you know maybe it was,
three weeks maybe it was three months of these really,
dark spells and my best friends. Didn't know but things
(16:43):
got so much worse in our seventeen. Eighteen season, you
know that very public panic attack and mental health EPISODE
that i know we'll speak. About happened it got a
lot worse before it. Got, better, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Yeah so what happened to that season to make things get?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Worse again it was unpacking the pressures of expectations of
fifteen to twenty years and the weight of, you know
an organization and ownership and the front office put in
pressure that we have to win and. Win now and
while we love that because it drove us to do these.
Great things we went to four straight finals from fifteen.
(17:22):
Through eighteen we won in twenty sixteen first major sports Championship.
In cleveland but, YOU know i was at that time
not speaking to. MY parents i was strange. From them,
you know within my my love life and my, personal
life things had, gone wrong as well as always feeling
these things and never facing it head on and not
(17:42):
going to therapy or having a trusted CONFIDENT that i could.
SPEAK to i DON'T think i wanted to admit that
there was. A problem i FELT like i was a
failure of even having these feelings and that idea of
masculinity and. Showing emotion of course i'd get angry and
get a technical foul and that sort, of thing but
in terms of, saying like, You know i'm at, home
(18:02):
Crying or i'm at home and my anxiety is coming
up in a way that is, SEVERELY unhealthy i, just
said like everybody else has these problems worse, Than ME
and i was, comparing GRIEF but i was also withholding
compassion for myself and not having grace. Within THAT and
i believe that nobody benefits from THAT that i just
(18:26):
all bottled up into a moment and it was PUBLIC
and i was on, the court it WAS. ON tv,
i mean we were a team that had nationally, televised
games and, You know i'd had these, feelings before these
type of things, That Happened but i've always just been
able to remove myself from a situation where have like
rage fits in my space at home right like it
(18:46):
manifested in. DIFFERENT ways i had nowhere, to GO so
i just ran to the locker room or tried to
ESCAPE like i. Always did but this is around my
teammates that we're back in the. Locker room it was around.
OUR trainers i Feel like i'm having. CARDIAC arrest i
can't catch, MY breath i can't get oxygen to. MY
(19:07):
brain I don't i've never had this type of attack,
happened before so this is.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
LIFE threatening i end.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Up passed out on the floor of our, Head Trainer steve,
spirou's office and he's the one who finds. Me THERE
so i ended. Up leaving, after that they put me.
On oxygen i'm able to sit back up think, of
myself what the hell? JUST happened i go and they
run several tests At the, Cleveland clinic who's and still
is just, so amazing and everything checks out like there's.
(19:37):
Nothing Wrong but i'm asking, the question what?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Just?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Happened then is this going to? Happen again who's going
to know. About it so it's like this negative feedback
LOOP that i don't Know if i'm going to, survive
professionally and then how is that going to now impact
not only my livelihood but this safe space that was
once the. Basketball court so it got a lot worse
before it. Got BETTER but i think there is a
(20:02):
lot of good that came. From that it made, Me,
say okay things aren't.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
ADDING up i need to.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Change something so it was my FIRST time i had gone,
to THERAPY and i was incredibly lucky to find a.
Great therapist he just said in my medication, this morning
so RESPECT but i had finally come to Terms, that
okay it's time to start doing.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
The work so amazing to hear you talk about this
transition to understanding therapy and being more, self compassionate because
the amazing thing about the oxygen mask that you put
on is having put yours, on first you're now able
to help others put their oxygen. Mask on, YOU know
i know you as AN amazing, nba PLAYER but i
first got really familiar with you when you became like
a huge mental.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Health advocate tell me about.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
The article that you put out in, twenty eighteen because
that WAS when i first started hearing your name and
learning about what you're.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Up, To right so, FAST forward i go. To therapy
it Was An all star. That year it's My Fifth all,
star APPEARANCE and i had a great, year statistically, very,
efficient statistically producing at a very. High line and then
a couple of. THINGS happened i had Another Attack oklahoma
(21:15):
CITY that i am recently just starting to speak about because,
You know i've had to unpack my team kind of
at the time turning. On me after, THAT game i
had mispracticed the, next day and everybody, was, like, no,
no we need to, address THIS and i just wasn't ready,
(21:36):
to expose LIKE what i was going through at. The
time we LEFT for I Think, san antonio AND again i.
Felt isolated my anxiety went absolutely through, the ROOF and
i still had to go out there, and compete AND
so i FELT like i was on. An island and that,
same trip we Were, IN detroit i broke, My hand
so again the game was taken away. FROM me i
had NO outlet i know where. To go, It's, like
(21:58):
okay here's, a game we're paying this guy, Helps money
we're supposed to go to. The finals we have no
idea what's going on with. Our teammate we feel like
we can't. TRUST him i think it was that as
well as our our. MEDIA availability i started getting questions
in front of a group about my, mental health and that,
(22:19):
scared ME and i didn't want anybody to tell my story.
BUT me i had to have it be in my,
own WORDS and i told, MY agent i wrote, the
same made, some adjustments only wanted to take it so
far at that POINT because i.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Was scared it's.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
REALLY scared i didn't know what this was going. To
do is this going to? End everything is this going
to end my? Basketball career and what is pressing send going?
To DO but i THINK one i was. Just exhausted it,
was EXHAUSTED and i was playing this character and putting on.
THIS facade i was just tired of struggling and being
(22:57):
in a, terrible place in silence and in. The shadows
so press end and then my life inherently.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Changed forever the article published in twenty eighteen In The
player's tribune Was titled everyone is Going. Through something, In
it kevin acknowledged his mental, health struggles describe the panic
attack as a turning point and his decision to seek
help and encourage others facing similar challenges to do. The
same the Reaction to kevin's piece was. OVERWHELMINGLY positive i
(23:27):
would have never.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
EXPECTED it, i thought in, the comments people are going, to,
say like you're, a bitch and how are these guys
going to be able to be with him out there
on the core when he knows he struggles with this
and is he just going to leave?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
ANOTHER game, i mean.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
It's primitive we're so it's ingrained in, us psychologically like
to perceive. Threat FIRST and i think, as athletes criticism
is a tax. On success if we do decide to
go through the comments and we want to respond, to
people and we go through and it's all these great
things and it's like we're relating to people and there's
(24:04):
empathy or there's just like you know that, raw rah,
like yes like this, is great and then.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It's like, you know you suck and we're like that's.
The one, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
OVERWHELMINGLY positive i think we had ten thousand plus emails
in the first week we had. TO create i mean
my inboxes, were full my texts, were full and then
we had to create a separate email because there was
just so. Many people there were so many people that
had reached out and shared, their stories whether it be
(24:34):
their first hand experience with their own mental health or
their child's. Mental health that was incredibly. Eye opening. Press sad,
that morning we had left for a multiple game road
TRIP and i was back playing at. That point we
meet at the plane three, pm DEPARTURE and i remember
just sitting in, my seat throwing my, hoodie on throwing my.
(24:56):
Headphones on, i'm like what are my teammates? Gonna think
what are my teammates going? To THINK but I Remember
kyle korber coming across the aisle and shaking my hand
and just telling me that there's going to be. Something
here you're going to make a huge difference in. People's
lives and that was my first time where my shoulders had,
just dropped like maybe this is going to. Be okay
(25:17):
we'd gone through. THE flight i slept and might just
like turned to the side towards the window and, you
know ACTED like i. Wasn't available i'm always the first off.
THE plane i like to just go and get settled
on the bus and sitting there the, whole time like
just get me to, my room the, bus stops everybody,
gets off and then it's, You know lebron who comes,
to me just kind of shakes my hand in like
(25:40):
knowing approval and kind of wraps me up in the.
Big hug and that was, you know you spend almost
more time with your teammates in that space than you
do your, actual family so they. Become family but that
just pushed our our friendship and our brotherhood into.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
NEW space, i mean you're making it such that any
basketball player can be more than a, basketball.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
Player right they can, be.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Vulnerable they, can struggle and also they can have an identity.
BEYOND it i think one of the amazing things is
that now forever you to be known not just as
an amazing, basketball player also as an advocate for these.
IMPORTANT issues, i mean what does that feel like now
to be kind of to have come from being so
scared about talking, about this from such a hyper masculine
culture to now being in some ways the face of
(26:21):
talking about mental health.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And right there is a weight, to it but at the,
same time just speaking about it gives me LEVITY because
i get to be an.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Open book, I'm allowed i'm empowered to be.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
Like open, The curtain, you're like. Curtains, open yeah this IS.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Who i am and this is what. You, get honestly
if you don't, like it that's your problem because my
intention is to help the next person and it's just
authentic TO who, i am and it IS who i want,
to Be and i'm, not PERFECT like i think that's
the beauty of. It too it's like, with basketball you
can wake up every day and, Be like i'm going to.
Get better you can never get too big to do the.
Little things you can never get too big to refine.
(26:56):
Your skills and THAT'S how i feel about what we're
doing here in.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
This space it's going.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
To take a, long time but, LONG term i think,
legacy naturally as a, basketball player you talk about that word,
A lot But now i've started to think about like
legacy virtues versus.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Eulogy virtues it's been.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Deaths Obviously, brian wilson, my FATHER and i think about
what are people.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Going to SAY when. I pass are they going to say.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
He BROKE the NBA and aba merger for double doubles
when he played in his. Third, Season, No no they're
going to talk about how he made. People feel they're
going to talk about, His relationships they're going to talk
about how he made an impact on other. PEOPLE'S lives, i, mean,
like sure they'll touch. On basketball but what my hope
(27:47):
IS when i get to, that POINT if i just
be my authentic self and be more comfortable in my
own skin by exposing, these things that when that, time
comes it's going to be more about eulogy. Than legacy
but my hope would BE if i keep living my
life with that type, of intention that the universe will
unfold as.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
It should so what does living with that kind of
intention look Like for? Kevin today after, the break we'll
talk About how kevin is trying to break the stigma
for the next generation. Of Athletes The happiness lab will be.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Right BACK.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
When Nba Star kevin love finally went public about his mental,
health struggles the response. Was overwhelming it was clear that
people were hungry to change the stigma that so many.
Athletes Face Enter The Kevin, love fund a nonprofit dedicated
to helping the next generation develop the skills they need
to manage mental. Health challenges and.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
We wanted to support both physical and, emotional wellbeing and
we wanted to just keep having these conversations to eliminate
the stigma and provide resources educate. As WELL and i
think that education space IS where i look back and
coming into, high school all of, those, expectations, athletics college
you have to consider those things much. Younger NOW but
(29:09):
I know i didn't have, The LANGUAGE but, i thought
if we can learn about physical health and, sexual health
why aren't we being taught about emotions and? Mental health
why aren't we putting this into. The CLASSROOM so i
thought it would be really meaningful because everybody's going through
(29:30):
something that you. Can't see how can we implement this
into the classroom starting at that age and create a
curriculum that's modeled. Around vulnerability Sarah and elier educators have
done such an incredible job in rounding out this curriculum
and continuing to add to it and get it taught
in many different countries and many, different languages and continuing to.
(29:52):
Grow it, right now we're working on getting it into
the third largest school district in, the country And. That's
miami part of.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
This new curriculum involves prompts designed to help students open
up about the things they're, struggling with but teachers get
to answer first modeling what a response looks like and
showing that adults are. VULNERABLE too I asked kevin to
tell me about an experience from early in the programs,
develop it one that made him realize just how powerful
this work.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Could be, you know the teacher. Models it they go around.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
The classroom and the amazing part about that day was
the basketball team and some of the football team was in,
that classroom and once we got, to them, you know
they were kind of hiding, AND like i don't want,
to share but we just kept going around and then
we got, to THEM and i remember the first share
he had, talked about, YOU know i come to school
(30:40):
to get food and my dad's, not around and my
mom's having to work with my SISTERS and i don't
get enough time, with her and it's just.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Two Jobs and i'm, just like this.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Is amazing like everybody's open amazed in, that. Classroom right
they can amise, each other they can help, each other
and this is.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
An athlete like at, THAT age i WAS like i wasn't.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Doing THAT but i just want to tell everybody, out
there like it's a free curriculum and so this is
something that you can integrate into. Any school, you know
this is a you know as potential to really have
a huge impact on a. Kid's life and it's just
early intervention in a time where, you know in your
early teens you start to really feel what being self.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Conscious IS like i.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Certainly did it's, early intervention but it might also be. Generational. Intervention,
yes yes those kids on the football team who started
talking about how the food and security makes, them feel
that's going to mean that it's easier for them to do.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
It right they have a kid who's on the football, team.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yearsly and it just goes to show you WITH what
i said OR what i wrote in, that article is
that everybody's going through something that you, can't, See right
so let's. Be compassionate let's allow ourselves to be a.
Sounding board pay, it forward if you want to use.
Your voice there is room for. Generational healing kid brought
(32:02):
a sign to a game that said everybody's going, through
SOMETHING and i told our security, or like grab him,
for me grab him and his family. For me and
he came BACK and i just spoke to the FAMILY
and i started to realize through what they said that
you're not just changing the, kid's life you're changing how
(32:22):
he's relating with, his, friends potentially, his team, his teachers,
his family. His community what is changing that one life actually?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Look like what does?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
IT do i don't know if we can quantify it
or it's something that you, can measure but there's a
LOT of i think healing to be had through, all
that and it's not just that. One person it has
a ripple effect that is just an. Amazing thing and
seeing it firsthand is.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
IT'S inspiring i remember when your article came out and
it get sent to me by like tons and tons
of my students and many of my student athletes, Were
like i'm so happy he. Said it because only you
know you're an all star you can say it can't
be somebody who hasn't achieved the things that, you did which.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Is, sad yeah but it doesn't meant.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So much we've worked with a lot of student athletes
and it's. Been amazing and after they come out of
college and they struggle, With identity but how do you
help these student athletes and their coaches have these conversations
because you know these colleges or institutions that.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
You know now money.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Is involved it makes it so much More complex at,
that age a kid is even. More worried it has
even more Pressure, about OKAY if i expose THIS or i,
tell this like this college isn't going to, Want me
they're going to take away. My, scholarship yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Not UNLIKE what i had at the at the.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Highest level But also i've already, made It like i'm
already in. THIS space i can't imagine the pressures but
also the pain of having to feel like you need
to hide that with your coaches or with, you know
these people that are potentially going to give you an
opportunity of a lifetime and in high school that might
be the only chance that.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
You HAVE but i think you opening up, the conversation
it MEANS that i think college high school coaches will have.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
The conversation so That's the, it's like, you know the teacher,
models it it has to be. The coaches i'm very
proud to be part OF the nba who's backed us
so much in this and been driving, for us and
they'll continue to evolve in. This space, but Really The miami,
Heat coach Spolstra coach bo he's so open to these
conversations and sometimes he'll just bring it in and be like.
(34:34):
Blackout day nobody, come in get, some sun get some.
Vitamin date it's good, for, you right spend time with,
your families play the long game because we.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Need that it's an.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Unforgiving league so when he, models that and he's one
of the greatest coaches of, all time and we Have Doctor,
derek anderson who's our licensed therapist, on staff. He's amazing
so that also gives me hope that that will then
trickle down to college athletes as well as high. School
athletes and there's always going to be exceptions to. The
(35:04):
rule there's going to be people that aren't open. To
this but, you know vulnerability. Is.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Superpower strength well.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Also raises a question of like what's actually going to make?
Play better and we could say play better on the court,
that night but also, play better, you know having a
long career of longevity with your injuries where you, don't
know blow yourself up and get canceled on. Social media you're, so,
ANGRY right, I mean i think we really need to
have a conversation of whether or.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Not it could be a.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Better, PRODUCT well i think even just, you know in
terms of like, physical performance we figured. That out, you
know people get. Rest days, you know you, take. BREAKS
right i think we've come to realize that the body
is not just this crazy machine that you, push, push, push.
RIGHT right i think when we come to think about
people's mental health their human performance side, of things we
probably need to be a little bit more compassionate, there
(35:53):
too and ultimately like the result will be. Better off
thank you so much for all the great work that
you're doing and where can folks learn About The kevin
love fun kevinlovefund.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Dot org and thank you as well for being. AN
ally i always say like we're, tribal beings we should
start acting, like it and we are part of a.
Tribe together this is. Community driven we all want to
be on the winning side. Of HISTORY but i think it's.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
ALL hope i hope we're finally at the beginning of
a mental, health revolution but there's still lots of work
that each of us can do to fight. The, stigma
First as kevin's viral article, put it remember everyone is
going through something and a little compassion can go a very.
Long way so if you're a teacher or, a coach
(36:37):
or a parent or, a leader it's vital that you
model vulnerability to the people who look up, to you
and give yourself a little. Compassion too by, doing so
we can help the next generation break the cycle and
feel safe having tough. Conversations Openly The happiness lab will
soon be back with A spectacular. Halloween episode we'll be
(36:58):
exploring the connection between fear. And joy we'll speak to
a behavioral scientist who's studying why certain people just love
to Be scared. All that next time On The, Happiness
Lab Doctor laurie santos
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.