October 16, 2023 • 26 mins
When did you last check in on a friend? Maybe the last time you did, their reply was terse or non-existent. Perhaps months or years have passed and you feel awkward about reestablishing contact? Or you might worry they're busy and you're just bothering them?
Andy Salkind tells Dr Laurie Santos that you should forget your worries - and just TEXT THEM!
After all, a simple message from a friend saved his life.
WARNING: This episode deals with depression and suicidality. If you’re based in the US, you can call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Similar services are available in pretty much every other country. So, if you need help, please, please reach out.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
When I was going through my twenties early thirties, it
was very easy to be passively friends because most people
will never tell you the honest truth of what's going on.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
This is Andy Sulkin. As you've probably noticed from his accent.
Andy is British, the country he's from isn't exactly known
for its emotional openness. But no matter where you're from,
I'm guessing you may be able to resonate with Andy's
experience of friendship.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We'll all just go you're right, and people will go, yeah,
of course I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But a few years ago Andy decided to make a
big change. He decided to stop being so passive with
the people he cared about.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I now feel more active in every friendship I have.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
If a friend who seems like they're having a tough
day says I'm fine, Andy will reply.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Are you all right? You don't seem all right.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Andy's also increased the frequency with which he checks in
on people. He texts his friends regularly, even those who
don't always write back.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Sometimes they need prompting.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
If Andy hasn't heard from a friend in a while,
he takes that as a sign that they may be
going through something tough and that it's time to send
them a quick note. That is what he did with
an old university pal recently.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I was like, you're okay, I hadn't he knew while
just checking in to which I got a photo back
of the Yoda statue at Skywalker Studios or something like that,
and she's just like, yep, just finishing up at America.
I'll be home soon. And I was like, that explains
everything I checked, just in case.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And that awkward feeling you experience when you think about
calling up someone you haven't talked to in a while,
that sort of h I better not, it might be
kind of weird. Andy totally ignores that feeling.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
If you want to speak to that person, just speak
to that person. If they don't want to speak to you,
that's on. But if you care and you genuinely are
interested and want to know what's going on in their life,
just keep asking. I want to be a friend to them,
regardless of whether they need it or not, because if
they are ever in a position where they do need it,
(02:26):
then I am already there.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
There's a chance you might find Andy's behavior a little intense.
You might even worry that being this active in your
friendships could see him pushy or annoying or like you
can't take a hint. But Happiness research shows that Andy
may actually be onto something.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I feel happier and as if I am a better
friend to these people.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
The special season of the Happiness Lab is all about
how to become a better friend, and today we'll learn
that checking in on our friends more often, even in
a slightly persistent way, can be a critical part of
happier friendships, which is something that Andy saw firsthand. In fact,
as we'll hear in this episode, Andy learned that a
simple text message at the right time can a huge impact.
(03:10):
It can even mean the difference between life and death.
Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to
be happy. But what if our minds are wrong. What
if our minds are lying to us, leading us away
from what will really make us happy. The good news
is that understanding the science of the mind can point
us all back in the right direction. You're listening to
(03:32):
the Happiness Lab well, Doctor Laurie Santos. I'll share more
of Andy's story a bit later on, but first I
want to explore why we assume that checking in on
our friends could seem annoying, and why we often think
it's not even necessary to learn more. I decided to
(03:52):
tag in an expert on the misconceptions we bring to
our friendships.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Often we see only the veneer of people's lives.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
This is Peggylou, a professor at the University of Pittsburgh.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
We see relatively positive moments on people's social media, or
we kind of just assume that people are going through
life fine, but you often don't realize that you know
someone might be going through something really difficult. They haven't
made it public, and so just you showing that your
thinking about them can really mean a lot more to
someone than you actually realized.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Peggy's research explorers why we don't connect with the people
we care about as much as we should.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
If you ask people about the benefits of social connection,
I think most people can tell you, yeah, it's great
to be connected to others. But then if you actually
ask people, do you feel connected to other people in
your life? I think you often find that a lot
of people feel quite disconnected with others.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Peggy studies these failures to connect because it's a challenge
that she's struggled with personally.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
So I have a four year old child, and prior
to having a four year old child, I felt like
I had a lot of time. You know, I was
busy as a student, but I felt like I could
see my friends a lot more often. But once you
become a mom, you're sort of accustomed to just trying
to deal with all the buyers that come with taking
care of a child, and so you don't really have
that moment to pause and text a friend.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And Peggy wasn't alone here. Her friends and colleagues were
going through exactly the same thing.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
We were just losing touch with a lot of people
in our lives, and so we were wondering, you know,
why might that be.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Peggy and her academic colleagues decided to explore what was
going wrong, and they found that simple business wasn't the
only factor. And even bigger reason we failed to reach
out is that we're pretty bad at accurately predicting what
the people in our life want and need.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
When I'm thinking about reaching out to someone, I just
get in my own head, and I think a lot
of people do too, like, oh, they're probably busy, but
you know, if I interrupt them, they might be like,
why are you reaching out to me, what do you want?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
We wind up so focused on our own wants and
needs that we forget to think about how a recipient
will feel if we took the time to reach out.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
People are usually feel like, wow, that was a great experience.
It really made my day that someone actually thought about me.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Peggy has found that we're terrible at predicting how much
other people will appreciate our efforts to get in touch.
We know that we'd like it if a friend made contact,
but somehow we just can't put ourselves in the other
person's shoes.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
When thinking about initiating and interaction, we're thinking about how
competent we come across, and the recipients just thinking about
the warmth of this interaction or this warmth of this message.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
When you're the person who initiates a social gesture, when
you're the reach your outer as it were, you want
up very focused on your competence. You want to make
sure you're doing it right, that you're not coming across
as weird or boring or inconsiderate. But the person on
the receiving end is judging the interaction by a completely
different metric. They're more attuned to the warmth of your message,
(06:39):
Did it sound sincere Does it show that you genuinely care?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And so I think in that moment, you forget to
think about the recipient's perspective, and you forget about that
feeling of oh, wow, someone just texted me that thought
about me and it's been so long and it's such
a positive feeling.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
But there's a second way we mess up when it
comes to thinking about our friend's perspectives. We fail to
appreciate the psychological power of surprise.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
If you're the person thinking about reaching out to someone,
almost by definition, out is not really that surprising. You're
not really thinking about how they're going to feel surprised.
You're thinking, oh, I'm thinking about reaching out.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
But research has shown that the surprising nature of a
text or kind message can have a big impact on
how our recipient interprets that gesture.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Surprise amplifies how positive you feel. So if something positive happens,
So if you find a little bit of money, let's say,
and it's a surprise, you feel more positive than if
you were expecting to get that same amount of money.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
The science suggests that giving someone a surprise text or
call will have a positive impact on their moods, but
our lying minds just can't see that. And if it's
been weeks, months, or years since we last said hello,
our lying minds become even more reluctant to re establish contact.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
The more that time passes, the more that you feel
like it's a little bit awkward perhaps to reach out.
And so I think that also contributes on top of
all of these things that you have going on in
your life that lead to these barriers to reaching out.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Peggy and her colleagues wanted to find ways to break
down all these psychological barriers to reaching out, so they
joined forces to study just how badly people underestimate the
benefits of connecting.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
We basically encountered students on campus and we asked them, hey,
can you let us know the name and email address
of someone that you've kind of lost touch with on
the college campus. And so people who agreed to do
that they were our initiators, and then they actually wrote
a brief message to this person that they had sort
of lost contact with, and then later that day we
(08:38):
actually delivered that message via email on their behalf to
the recipient. And then we asked those recipients, hey, how
much do you appreciate having been reached out to. And
we also asked the initiators to predict how much they
thought the person that they had reached out to would
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
On a scale of one not at all appreciative to
five extremely appreciative. Initiators assumed their recipient would be somewhere
around a four, but recipients who got that unexpected email
so they were closer to a full five out of
five on that appreciation scale. Seems like there's a disconnect
when you think about you know, when I got reached
out to, it felt awesome, but when I think about
(09:15):
reaching out to someone else, I kind of can't access
that awesome feeling in the same way.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, and what we find is that do you think
they probably felt positively, but you don't realize how positive
that was.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So far, we've heard that our reluctance to reach out
to check in or restore a friendship that's fizzling out
is bad for our happiness. But when we get back
from the break, we'll see just how powerful a quick
reach out can be for the person who receives our message.
We'll see that making that first move and sending a
quick text can sometimes have a way greater importance than
we could possibly imagine.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It was the most innocent, stupid message in the world,
and it meant it meant my life to me.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
We'll hear more from hardcore friend Andy Salkin when The
Happiness Lab returns.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
In a moment.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Before we dive into the rest of the episode, I
want to warn you that we'll be touching on a
distressing but important topic, suicidality. If you are a friend
is in crisis, know that help is available. If you're
based in the US, you can call or text the
nine to eight to eight Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Similar
services are available in pretty much every country, so if
(10:32):
you need help, please please be sure to reach out.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I wrote a book about being very sad. It's called
Life Is a four letter word, and life really can
be a four letter word at times.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Author Andy Selkin eventually decided to change his approach to
friendship because he vividly remembers what it's like to really
need a friend.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
At the time, I believed I was a failure. I
had failed in business. The business I was working for
had failed. I had lost everything. I had failed as
a husband. Because my wife wanted to leave me. She
had gone through her own journey. I had failed as
(11:19):
a son to my parents. I had failed as a
brother to my siblings. I had failed as a parent
to my two cats at the time, Sky and Roxy.
And then my final and most egregious failing of all
was I had failed as a human being because I
lived with depression and I no longer felt emotions.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Andy's sense of failure left him feeling more lost than
he'd ever been.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It is like you are in fog. It is like
you are intrigual and you are just numb. That is
the best way I can describe it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Andy's depression affected nearly everything he held dear, his performance
at work, his sense of humor, and most importantly, his
connection to the people around him.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I felt utterly isolated and alone as I was going
through the real depths of my depression. You just try
to do it yourself, because you're like, well, if I
can't get through this by myself, how am I ever
going to get through anything else in the future ever?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Again, Andy didn't want to be a burden, so he
buried his anguish.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I hid everything from people. You learn to put on
a face or put on a mask, I would go
to work, I would put on a suit, I would
put on the face, go in, be the charming accountant,
talk about how great things are and how positive the
business outlook is and everything like that, and then I
(12:45):
would get home, take the suit off, and be miserable
all day.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Every day, Andy felt like he was playing a role,
just pretending that everything was okay.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
And that's not really a life at all. It's just
a persona that you slot into.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
But Andy played that role well. No one knew what
he was going through.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
No one would believe it when I said I had
de press like no one believed it. No one ever
thought about it. And that contributes to the exhaustion that
you have because you are being somebody for someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Andy grew more and more exhausted from hiding all this pain.
Eventually it became easier for him to hide away altogether.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
You recede inwards, you stop reaching out, and then you
eventually start convincing yourself that actually, it's better for other
people if I don't put my problems on them. And
it's a very small step to go from actually they're
better off not hearing about my problems to actually everyone
(13:48):
is better off not having me in their lives.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
And that led Andy to a very very dark place.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I had come to a conclusion that my death was
the best thing for everyone in my life.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So Andy spent weeks preparing to take his own life.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So I was ready. I had like I was diligent
about it, and yeah, it's still hard thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
With everything taken care of, Andy decided that the fateful
day to end his pain had finally come.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I was in tears, like I was like, this is it.
And then as I was getting ready, I heard my
phone go and it was just a message from my
best friend and it just said pop question mark, And
it was a really simple message. It's the sort of
(14:39):
message we sent each other and so on, and it's
just a reminder that we were meant to be getting
together and going to the pub.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
That friend was going through a rough patch too, and
her three letter message stopped Andy and his tracks. If
she was texting, it meant she might really need his help.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
It was just such a rush of emotions in that
moment of kind of like, oh, wow, someone out there
still wants me in their life, even when I am
literally at the lowest point I possibly can be. There
(15:18):
is still someone that wants to collect.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So Andy did two things. First, he dashed off a
quick reply.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I was like sure, yeah, I can't remember the messages,
but I was just like yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
But second, and much more importantly, he decided not to
kill himself.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I was still depressed, I was still down, I was
still feeling all the rubbishness. But there was a reason there.
There was a reason to keep going. And I will
never be able to thank her enough for that day.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
From that day on, Andy dropped the mask he'd used
to hide his suffering. For the first time. He became
open about his depression and shared what was really going
on life, and to his initial surprise, he got tons
of support from friends and family members. Eventually, Andy was
even able to open up to the friend whose text
had saved his life.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It took me about two years to tell her that
this is what happened. And then she hit me and
I was like, yeah, I've probably deserved that.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Psychologist Peggyleu's research suggests that many of us might not
have sent a friend like Andy that all important life
saving text. We'd probably just have accepted his assurances that
everything was fine. And when he dropped out of sight,
we'd probably be reluctant to contact him. Her work suggests
that most of us would fear looking rude or pushy,
or like we can't take a hint, And that's exactly
(16:52):
how Andy used to think. But after the break, we'll
hear that Andy has very much turned things around. He's
now committed to being the kind of friend we all
needed our lowest points, and the kind of friend that
science shows we should all try a little harder to be.
The happiness lab will be right back.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
We all live such busy lives. Like taking the time
to reach out check in It does. It takes time,
but ultimately, if you care about these people, giving them
your time is one hundred percent worth it and is
not a cost. It is something you should be willing
to give.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
After a one word text from a friend prevented him
from taking his own life, Andy Selkins's mission is now
to ensure that the people around him never feel as
alone as he once did.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
If you want to reach out and communicate with someone,
then do it regardless of what they think, because actually,
nine times out of ten, whether they've said it or not,
they probably want the same thing.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Andy's first suggestion for becoming a more active friend is
to commit to tracking the stuff that's going on in
other people's lives, especially when they're going through the tough
stuff layoffs, breakups, and bereavements.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
One of my best mates he lost his mum last year,
and I've made a conscious effort to try to engage
with him because he's a proud Yorkshireman that doesn't talk
about feelings and everything like that, and I just try
and be like, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
That proud yorkshireman kept saying he was fine. But eventually
Andy's persistence paid off. The pair met for a drink
at a local brewery. They didn't talk about Andy's friends grief,
but their time together was important for his healing, and.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
He's just kind of like, thank you for this, Like
this is what I need. And I know I don't
talk about it, but this is what i'd need.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
But we don't just need to check in when a
friend has gone through a major loss or a life change.
Andy also recommends paying attention to more subtle signs that
a friend may be acting differently, like he did with
one of his buddies after a night on the.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Time we just finished dancing and they were waiting for
a train home and they weren't really quiet, and there
wasn't much conversation, like it was a natural time to
go quiet. But they're quite a lively person. And I
just sent them a message the next day and just
went you okay, And it was like, of course I
find and I was like, are you You went really quiet?
(19:30):
And that's not like you. You don't have to answer anything,
but I see you. I've noticed.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
But even when you notice and reach out, that doesn't
necessarily mean people will reply, especially if they're hurting. Andy
says you shouldn't jump to that conclusion that they're mad
or annoyed with you for bothering them. What you should do,
says Andy, is to keep trying.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No matter how silly you might feel about sending a
text message. Like I hear about all the time you
send someone a message and they don't reply, like, oh,
I can't send them another message now, I can't do that.
That's a social folk pap and it's like, no, it's no.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I really admire Andy's persistence and checking in on the
people he cares about, but I'll be the first to
admit it's not always easy. I know I still worry
at least a little bit about texting someone out of
the blue, that I might look stupid or that I'd
be bothering them. And when I get that feeling, I
like to think back to psychologists Peggy Lose research which
shows that assumptions like these are usually wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I just try to tell people, hey, just think about
the last time, like, really think about last time someone
reach out to you, how did you feel? And so
why don't you go ahead and do that for someone else?
And that's really been something that's helped me, at least
personally reach out to others, even in times when I thought, oh,
maybe they don't want to hear from me.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
When we talked about Peggy's research earlier, we discussed the
so called warmth competence bias. We get so caught up
in how our message sounds that we forget how our
recipient will take it, that they're just going to care
about its emotional warmth. But Peggy has some suggestions for
overcoming this bias. Her first recommendation, and keep it brief.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So it can be hey, just thinking about you.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
A short written message also has other advantages over a
phone or video call, so.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
In our research we do things like a text message
or an email, and I think these types of more
asynchronous communication allow people to figure out when they want
to respond, and they also don't create a huge burden
on the other person. You're not really asking them to
engage in a long conversation with you, and so I
try to engage in these brief messages, just like, Hey,
hope you're doing well. Just thought of you for XYZ reason,
(21:39):
and then hope everything is going well with you.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Peggy also reminds us that tending to our friendships takes planning.
She recommends periodically scrolling through your phone's contact list and
noticing who you haven't connected with.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Lately, and then I just send them a brief note
and I try not to make anything super involved. You
just want to say say, hey, hope things are going
well in your life, or hope, just want to let
you know I'm thinking about you.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
If it still seems too random for you, you might
consider looking out for little excuses to drop a friend
a quick.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
One when there's something natural that comes up, like something
you saw in the news or some TV show. I
think it can remove some of that concern about competence
because you're, like I do have a good reason to
just say I thought about you.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
After publishing her study on the power of reaching out,
Peggy started using all of these tips herself, and she's
seen the benefits. Her own sense of social connection has
improved drastically. She's also proud that she's been able to
support her friends through some unexpected challenges.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
One of our collaborators left academia for industry recently, and
so I think sometimes, you know, when people go through
major life changes, you often lose touch with your social
circle as you form a new social circle. But I
try to keep that connection going just occasionally checking and
saying HI, just thought about you.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
That quick check in always feels great. But it's something
that she and her colleagues wouldn't naturally have done before
all their reaching out studies.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I think it's nice because this research has prompted us
to stay connected, in part because of the findings themselves,
but also whenever there's some fun press piece that we
actually send it to each other, so it's another prompter
for us to connect to each other.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And the press attention has helped Peggy form other connections too.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
It was interesting because this is one of the only
projects that my mom has actually found interesting and so
you know, in the past I've sent her things and
she's like, this is nice, this is great. But I
can tell she didn't really, you know, really think about
the findings that much. But this is one where it
actually led her to think back to her college classmates
(23:41):
and it actually prompted her to reach out to some
of them.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Peggy also heard from people she hadn't talked to in forever.
High school buddies saw the media coverage of her work
and checked back in.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Hey, we saw this and we thought, hey, we should
actually reach out and say something to you. So that's
been really cool too.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Peggy says this ripple effect of more and more reaching
out is one of the best parts of doing this research.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I got an email from a stranger right around when
some of this press was coming out in the beginning,
where someone said, Hey, this actually meant a lot more
to me than the other person realized.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
That emailer was speaking for so many of us. We
love it when our friends check in with a warm
message the show they care, or when an old pal
tries to rekindle a dormant relationship. With the right strategies,
we can get that same great feeling to the people
we care about. It's a practice that now active friend
Andy Salkin simply can't recommend enough.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Just reach out like. It doesn't have to be much.
You don't have to have a like a delicately crafted
and perfectly punctuated message, like. It doesn't have to be
a poem or sonnet or something just pub question mark.
It's enough. It's enough to save a life.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Talking to Andy has convinced me that we rarely realize
how helpful a quick check in can be. Our lying
minds tell us that people already know we care and
that they're probably doing fine. That, combined with the busyness
of life, means we can neglect the people we love
and that we sometimes let friendships we care about Dwendolin fade.
But Andy's story shows us it doesn't have to be
(25:17):
that way. So why not grab your phone right now
and scroll through your contact list. If you see a
name you haven't connected within a while, drop that person
a quick line, just a hey, how's it going? Or
thinking of you? Your text might not save someone's life,
but the science shows it'll probably make you and someone
you care about a little happier. The Happiness Lab is
(25:49):
co written and produced by Ryan Dilly. Our original music
was composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and
mastering by Evan Viola. Jess Shane and Alice Vines offered
additional production support. Special thanks to my agent, Ben Davis
and all of the Pushkin Crow. The Happiness Lab is
brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me, Doctor Laurie
Santa Yes
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
When I was going through my twenties early thirties, it
was very easy to be passively friends because most people
will never tell you the honest truth of what's going on.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
This is Andy Sulkin. As you've probably noticed from his accent.
Andy is British, the country he's from isn't exactly known
for its emotional openness. But no matter where you're from,
I'm guessing you may be able to resonate with Andy's
experience of friendship.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We'll all just go you're right, and people will go, yeah,
of course I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But a few years ago Andy decided to make a
big change. He decided to stop being so passive with
the people he cared about.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I now feel more active in every friendship I have.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
If a friend who seems like they're having a tough
day says I'm fine, Andy will reply.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Are you all right? You don't seem all right.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Andy's also increased the frequency with which he checks in
on people. He texts his friends regularly, even those who
don't always write back.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Sometimes they need prompting.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
If Andy hasn't heard from a friend in a while,
he takes that as a sign that they may be
going through something tough and that it's time to send
them a quick note. That is what he did with
an old university pal recently.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I was like, you're okay, I hadn't he knew while
just checking in to which I got a photo back
of the Yoda statue at Skywalker Studios or something like that,
and she's just like, yep, just finishing up at America.
I'll be home soon. And I was like, that explains
everything I checked, just in case.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And that awkward feeling you experience when you think about
calling up someone you haven't talked to in a while,
that sort of h I better not, it might be
kind of weird. Andy totally ignores that feeling.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
If you want to speak to that person, just speak
to that person. If they don't want to speak to you,
that's on. But if you care and you genuinely are
interested and want to know what's going on in their life,
just keep asking. I want to be a friend to them,
regardless of whether they need it or not, because if
they are ever in a position where they do need it,
(02:26):
then I am already there.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
There's a chance you might find Andy's behavior a little intense.
You might even worry that being this active in your
friendships could see him pushy or annoying or like you
can't take a hint. But Happiness research shows that Andy
may actually be onto something.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I feel happier and as if I am a better
friend to these people.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
The special season of the Happiness Lab is all about
how to become a better friend, and today we'll learn
that checking in on our friends more often, even in
a slightly persistent way, can be a critical part of
happier friendships, which is something that Andy saw firsthand. In fact,
as we'll hear in this episode, Andy learned that a
simple text message at the right time can a huge impact.
(03:10):
It can even mean the difference between life and death.
Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to
be happy. But what if our minds are wrong. What
if our minds are lying to us, leading us away
from what will really make us happy. The good news
is that understanding the science of the mind can point
us all back in the right direction. You're listening to
(03:32):
the Happiness Lab well, Doctor Laurie Santos. I'll share more
of Andy's story a bit later on, but first I
want to explore why we assume that checking in on
our friends could seem annoying, and why we often think
it's not even necessary to learn more. I decided to
(03:52):
tag in an expert on the misconceptions we bring to
our friendships.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Often we see only the veneer of people's lives.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
This is Peggylou, a professor at the University of Pittsburgh.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
We see relatively positive moments on people's social media, or
we kind of just assume that people are going through
life fine, but you often don't realize that you know
someone might be going through something really difficult. They haven't
made it public, and so just you showing that your
thinking about them can really mean a lot more to
someone than you actually realized.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Peggy's research explorers why we don't connect with the people
we care about as much as we should.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
If you ask people about the benefits of social connection,
I think most people can tell you, yeah, it's great
to be connected to others. But then if you actually
ask people, do you feel connected to other people in
your life? I think you often find that a lot
of people feel quite disconnected with others.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Peggy studies these failures to connect because it's a challenge
that she's struggled with personally.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
So I have a four year old child, and prior
to having a four year old child, I felt like
I had a lot of time. You know, I was
busy as a student, but I felt like I could
see my friends a lot more often. But once you
become a mom, you're sort of accustomed to just trying
to deal with all the buyers that come with taking
care of a child, and so you don't really have
that moment to pause and text a friend.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And Peggy wasn't alone here. Her friends and colleagues were
going through exactly the same thing.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
We were just losing touch with a lot of people
in our lives, and so we were wondering, you know,
why might that be.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Peggy and her academic colleagues decided to explore what was
going wrong, and they found that simple business wasn't the
only factor. And even bigger reason we failed to reach
out is that we're pretty bad at accurately predicting what
the people in our life want and need.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
When I'm thinking about reaching out to someone, I just
get in my own head, and I think a lot
of people do too, like, oh, they're probably busy, but
you know, if I interrupt them, they might be like,
why are you reaching out to me, what do you want?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
We wind up so focused on our own wants and
needs that we forget to think about how a recipient
will feel if we took the time to reach out.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
People are usually feel like, wow, that was a great experience.
It really made my day that someone actually thought about me.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Peggy has found that we're terrible at predicting how much
other people will appreciate our efforts to get in touch.
We know that we'd like it if a friend made contact,
but somehow we just can't put ourselves in the other
person's shoes.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
When thinking about initiating and interaction, we're thinking about how
competent we come across, and the recipients just thinking about
the warmth of this interaction or this warmth of this message.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
When you're the person who initiates a social gesture, when
you're the reach your outer as it were, you want
up very focused on your competence. You want to make
sure you're doing it right, that you're not coming across
as weird or boring or inconsiderate. But the person on
the receiving end is judging the interaction by a completely
different metric. They're more attuned to the warmth of your message,
(06:39):
Did it sound sincere Does it show that you genuinely care?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And so I think in that moment, you forget to
think about the recipient's perspective, and you forget about that
feeling of oh, wow, someone just texted me that thought
about me and it's been so long and it's such
a positive feeling.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
But there's a second way we mess up when it
comes to thinking about our friend's perspectives. We fail to
appreciate the psychological power of surprise.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
If you're the person thinking about reaching out to someone,
almost by definition, out is not really that surprising. You're
not really thinking about how they're going to feel surprised.
You're thinking, oh, I'm thinking about reaching out.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
But research has shown that the surprising nature of a
text or kind message can have a big impact on
how our recipient interprets that gesture.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Surprise amplifies how positive you feel. So if something positive happens,
So if you find a little bit of money, let's say,
and it's a surprise, you feel more positive than if
you were expecting to get that same amount of money.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
The science suggests that giving someone a surprise text or
call will have a positive impact on their moods, but
our lying minds just can't see that. And if it's
been weeks, months, or years since we last said hello,
our lying minds become even more reluctant to re establish contact.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
The more that time passes, the more that you feel
like it's a little bit awkward perhaps to reach out.
And so I think that also contributes on top of
all of these things that you have going on in
your life that lead to these barriers to reaching out.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Peggy and her colleagues wanted to find ways to break
down all these psychological barriers to reaching out, so they
joined forces to study just how badly people underestimate the
benefits of connecting.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
We basically encountered students on campus and we asked them, hey,
can you let us know the name and email address
of someone that you've kind of lost touch with on
the college campus. And so people who agreed to do
that they were our initiators, and then they actually wrote
a brief message to this person that they had sort
of lost contact with, and then later that day we
(08:38):
actually delivered that message via email on their behalf to
the recipient. And then we asked those recipients, hey, how
much do you appreciate having been reached out to. And
we also asked the initiators to predict how much they
thought the person that they had reached out to would
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
On a scale of one not at all appreciative to
five extremely appreciative. Initiators assumed their recipient would be somewhere
around a four, but recipients who got that unexpected email
so they were closer to a full five out of
five on that appreciation scale. Seems like there's a disconnect
when you think about you know, when I got reached
out to, it felt awesome, but when I think about
(09:15):
reaching out to someone else, I kind of can't access
that awesome feeling in the same way.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, and what we find is that do you think
they probably felt positively, but you don't realize how positive
that was.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So far, we've heard that our reluctance to reach out
to check in or restore a friendship that's fizzling out
is bad for our happiness. But when we get back
from the break, we'll see just how powerful a quick
reach out can be for the person who receives our message.
We'll see that making that first move and sending a
quick text can sometimes have a way greater importance than
we could possibly imagine.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It was the most innocent, stupid message in the world,
and it meant it meant my life to me.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
We'll hear more from hardcore friend Andy Salkin when The
Happiness Lab returns.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
In a moment.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Before we dive into the rest of the episode, I
want to warn you that we'll be touching on a
distressing but important topic, suicidality. If you are a friend
is in crisis, know that help is available. If you're
based in the US, you can call or text the
nine to eight to eight Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Similar
services are available in pretty much every country, so if
(10:32):
you need help, please please be sure to reach out.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I wrote a book about being very sad. It's called
Life Is a four letter word, and life really can
be a four letter word at times.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Author Andy Selkin eventually decided to change his approach to
friendship because he vividly remembers what it's like to really
need a friend.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
At the time, I believed I was a failure. I
had failed in business. The business I was working for
had failed. I had lost everything. I had failed as
a husband. Because my wife wanted to leave me. She
had gone through her own journey. I had failed as
(11:19):
a son to my parents. I had failed as a
brother to my siblings. I had failed as a parent
to my two cats at the time, Sky and Roxy.
And then my final and most egregious failing of all
was I had failed as a human being because I
lived with depression and I no longer felt emotions.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Andy's sense of failure left him feeling more lost than
he'd ever been.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It is like you are in fog. It is like
you are intrigual and you are just numb. That is
the best way I can describe it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Andy's depression affected nearly everything he held dear, his performance
at work, his sense of humor, and most importantly, his
connection to the people around him.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I felt utterly isolated and alone as I was going
through the real depths of my depression. You just try
to do it yourself, because you're like, well, if I
can't get through this by myself, how am I ever
going to get through anything else in the future ever?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Again, Andy didn't want to be a burden, so he
buried his anguish.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I hid everything from people. You learn to put on
a face or put on a mask, I would go
to work, I would put on a suit, I would
put on the face, go in, be the charming accountant,
talk about how great things are and how positive the
business outlook is and everything like that, and then I
(12:45):
would get home, take the suit off, and be miserable
all day.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Every day, Andy felt like he was playing a role,
just pretending that everything was okay.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
And that's not really a life at all. It's just
a persona that you slot into.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
But Andy played that role well. No one knew what
he was going through.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
No one would believe it when I said I had
de press like no one believed it. No one ever
thought about it. And that contributes to the exhaustion that
you have because you are being somebody for someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Andy grew more and more exhausted from hiding all this pain.
Eventually it became easier for him to hide away altogether.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
You recede inwards, you stop reaching out, and then you
eventually start convincing yourself that actually, it's better for other
people if I don't put my problems on them. And
it's a very small step to go from actually they're
better off not hearing about my problems to actually everyone
(13:48):
is better off not having me in their lives.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
And that led Andy to a very very dark place.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I had come to a conclusion that my death was
the best thing for everyone in my life.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So Andy spent weeks preparing to take his own life.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So I was ready. I had like I was diligent
about it, and yeah, it's still hard thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
With everything taken care of, Andy decided that the fateful
day to end his pain had finally come.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I was in tears, like I was like, this is it.
And then as I was getting ready, I heard my
phone go and it was just a message from my
best friend and it just said pop question mark, And
it was a really simple message. It's the sort of
(14:39):
message we sent each other and so on, and it's
just a reminder that we were meant to be getting
together and going to the pub.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
That friend was going through a rough patch too, and
her three letter message stopped Andy and his tracks. If
she was texting, it meant she might really need his help.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
It was just such a rush of emotions in that
moment of kind of like, oh, wow, someone out there
still wants me in their life, even when I am
literally at the lowest point I possibly can be. There
(15:18):
is still someone that wants to collect.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So Andy did two things. First, he dashed off a
quick reply.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I was like sure, yeah, I can't remember the messages,
but I was just like yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
But second, and much more importantly, he decided not to
kill himself.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I was still depressed, I was still down, I was
still feeling all the rubbishness. But there was a reason there.
There was a reason to keep going. And I will
never be able to thank her enough for that day.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
From that day on, Andy dropped the mask he'd used
to hide his suffering. For the first time. He became
open about his depression and shared what was really going
on life, and to his initial surprise, he got tons
of support from friends and family members. Eventually, Andy was
even able to open up to the friend whose text
had saved his life.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It took me about two years to tell her that
this is what happened. And then she hit me and
I was like, yeah, I've probably deserved that.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Psychologist Peggyleu's research suggests that many of us might not
have sent a friend like Andy that all important life
saving text. We'd probably just have accepted his assurances that
everything was fine. And when he dropped out of sight,
we'd probably be reluctant to contact him. Her work suggests
that most of us would fear looking rude or pushy,
or like we can't take a hint, And that's exactly
(16:52):
how Andy used to think. But after the break, we'll
hear that Andy has very much turned things around. He's
now committed to being the kind of friend we all
needed our lowest points, and the kind of friend that
science shows we should all try a little harder to be.
The happiness lab will be right back.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
We all live such busy lives. Like taking the time
to reach out check in It does. It takes time,
but ultimately, if you care about these people, giving them
your time is one hundred percent worth it and is
not a cost. It is something you should be willing
to give.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
After a one word text from a friend prevented him
from taking his own life, Andy Selkins's mission is now
to ensure that the people around him never feel as
alone as he once did.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
If you want to reach out and communicate with someone,
then do it regardless of what they think, because actually,
nine times out of ten, whether they've said it or not,
they probably want the same thing.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Andy's first suggestion for becoming a more active friend is
to commit to tracking the stuff that's going on in
other people's lives, especially when they're going through the tough
stuff layoffs, breakups, and bereavements.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
One of my best mates he lost his mum last year,
and I've made a conscious effort to try to engage
with him because he's a proud Yorkshireman that doesn't talk
about feelings and everything like that, and I just try
and be like, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
That proud yorkshireman kept saying he was fine. But eventually
Andy's persistence paid off. The pair met for a drink
at a local brewery. They didn't talk about Andy's friends grief,
but their time together was important for his healing, and.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
He's just kind of like, thank you for this, Like
this is what I need. And I know I don't
talk about it, but this is what i'd need.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
But we don't just need to check in when a
friend has gone through a major loss or a life change.
Andy also recommends paying attention to more subtle signs that
a friend may be acting differently, like he did with
one of his buddies after a night on the.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Time we just finished dancing and they were waiting for
a train home and they weren't really quiet, and there
wasn't much conversation, like it was a natural time to
go quiet. But they're quite a lively person. And I
just sent them a message the next day and just
went you okay, And it was like, of course I
find and I was like, are you You went really quiet?
(19:30):
And that's not like you. You don't have to answer anything,
but I see you. I've noticed.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
But even when you notice and reach out, that doesn't
necessarily mean people will reply, especially if they're hurting. Andy
says you shouldn't jump to that conclusion that they're mad
or annoyed with you for bothering them. What you should do,
says Andy, is to keep trying.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No matter how silly you might feel about sending a
text message. Like I hear about all the time you
send someone a message and they don't reply, like, oh,
I can't send them another message now, I can't do that.
That's a social folk pap and it's like, no, it's no.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I really admire Andy's persistence and checking in on the
people he cares about, but I'll be the first to
admit it's not always easy. I know I still worry
at least a little bit about texting someone out of
the blue, that I might look stupid or that I'd
be bothering them. And when I get that feeling, I
like to think back to psychologists Peggy Lose research which
shows that assumptions like these are usually wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I just try to tell people, hey, just think about
the last time, like, really think about last time someone
reach out to you, how did you feel? And so
why don't you go ahead and do that for someone else?
And that's really been something that's helped me, at least
personally reach out to others, even in times when I thought, oh,
maybe they don't want to hear from me.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
When we talked about Peggy's research earlier, we discussed the
so called warmth competence bias. We get so caught up
in how our message sounds that we forget how our
recipient will take it, that they're just going to care
about its emotional warmth. But Peggy has some suggestions for
overcoming this bias. Her first recommendation, and keep it brief.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So it can be hey, just thinking about you.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
A short written message also has other advantages over a
phone or video call, so.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
In our research we do things like a text message
or an email, and I think these types of more
asynchronous communication allow people to figure out when they want
to respond, and they also don't create a huge burden
on the other person. You're not really asking them to
engage in a long conversation with you, and so I
try to engage in these brief messages, just like, Hey,
hope you're doing well. Just thought of you for XYZ reason,
(21:39):
and then hope everything is going well with you.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Peggy also reminds us that tending to our friendships takes planning.
She recommends periodically scrolling through your phone's contact list and
noticing who you haven't connected with.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Lately, and then I just send them a brief note
and I try not to make anything super involved. You
just want to say say, hey, hope things are going
well in your life, or hope, just want to let
you know I'm thinking about you.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
If it still seems too random for you, you might
consider looking out for little excuses to drop a friend
a quick.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
One when there's something natural that comes up, like something
you saw in the news or some TV show. I
think it can remove some of that concern about competence
because you're, like I do have a good reason to
just say I thought about you.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
After publishing her study on the power of reaching out,
Peggy started using all of these tips herself, and she's
seen the benefits. Her own sense of social connection has
improved drastically. She's also proud that she's been able to
support her friends through some unexpected challenges.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
One of our collaborators left academia for industry recently, and
so I think sometimes, you know, when people go through
major life changes, you often lose touch with your social
circle as you form a new social circle. But I
try to keep that connection going just occasionally checking and
saying HI, just thought about you.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
That quick check in always feels great. But it's something
that she and her colleagues wouldn't naturally have done before
all their reaching out studies.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I think it's nice because this research has prompted us
to stay connected, in part because of the findings themselves,
but also whenever there's some fun press piece that we
actually send it to each other, so it's another prompter
for us to connect to each other.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And the press attention has helped Peggy form other connections too.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
It was interesting because this is one of the only
projects that my mom has actually found interesting and so
you know, in the past I've sent her things and
she's like, this is nice, this is great. But I
can tell she didn't really, you know, really think about
the findings that much. But this is one where it
actually led her to think back to her college classmates
(23:41):
and it actually prompted her to reach out to some
of them.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Peggy also heard from people she hadn't talked to in forever.
High school buddies saw the media coverage of her work
and checked back in.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Hey, we saw this and we thought, hey, we should
actually reach out and say something to you. So that's
been really cool too.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Peggy says this ripple effect of more and more reaching
out is one of the best parts of doing this research.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I got an email from a stranger right around when
some of this press was coming out in the beginning,
where someone said, Hey, this actually meant a lot more
to me than the other person realized.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
That emailer was speaking for so many of us. We
love it when our friends check in with a warm
message the show they care, or when an old pal
tries to rekindle a dormant relationship. With the right strategies,
we can get that same great feeling to the people
we care about. It's a practice that now active friend
Andy Salkin simply can't recommend enough.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Just reach out like. It doesn't have to be much.
You don't have to have a like a delicately crafted
and perfectly punctuated message, like. It doesn't have to be
a poem or sonnet or something just pub question mark.
It's enough. It's enough to save a life.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Talking to Andy has convinced me that we rarely realize
how helpful a quick check in can be. Our lying
minds tell us that people already know we care and
that they're probably doing fine. That, combined with the busyness
of life, means we can neglect the people we love
and that we sometimes let friendships we care about Dwendolin fade.
But Andy's story shows us it doesn't have to be
(25:17):
that way. So why not grab your phone right now
and scroll through your contact list. If you see a
name you haven't connected within a while, drop that person
a quick line, just a hey, how's it going? Or
thinking of you? Your text might not save someone's life,
but the science shows it'll probably make you and someone
you care about a little happier. The Happiness Lab is
(25:49):
co written and produced by Ryan Dilly. Our original music
was composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and
mastering by Evan Viola. Jess Shane and Alice Vines offered
additional production support. Special thanks to my agent, Ben Davis
and all of the Pushkin Crow. The Happiness Lab is
brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me, Doctor Laurie
Santa Yes
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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.