November 29, 2022 • 32 mins
Pip Brown, the artist known as Ladyhawke, is an award-winning singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist. She also wrote all the original music for this podcast. Pip and Lauren talk about growing up odd, making sense of Asperger’s and crises in mental health, and that one time with all the vomit on the tram.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. When I was thinking about who would compose the
music for my life story, there was only one person
I really considered, the New Zealand singer songwriter, multi instrumentalist,
synth pop legend Lady Hawk. Number one because I'm a
(00:38):
sucker for a killer hook zue me and that is
one hundred percent Lady Hawk's wheelhouse. And number two, she's autistic.
I figured if anyone would get the vibe we were
going for, it would be her. But Lady Hawk, whose
offstage name is Pitt Brown, isn't just a pop star.
She's also a parent, a prolific gamer, and now possibly
(01:02):
my new best friend. But she can probably tell you
all that herself. Hey, I'm Lady Hook, or you can
call me Pip from New Zealand. I'm a singer songwriter.
I've been making music for very very long time now,
and yeah, I'm just residing in Auckland currently Auckland, New Zealand,
(01:25):
and handling the pandemic like everyone else. So so do
we have ever in like, describe your music for people
who haven't heard it? So I guess my sound is
like I'm big on nostalgia, So whatever you know that
(01:47):
brings to me is what sort of comes out in
my music. So like, I try and make a song
that makes you feel nostalgic listening to it, even though
you mightn't have heard it before. So you know, vintage,
since driving beats, like just all that sort of stuff.
I just love. I love nostalgic pop. So I guess
(02:08):
I'm indie pop, electro, a little bit of rock. Did
you listen to a ton of music when you were
a kid or did you grow up in a musical household? Yeah?
I Um, I just loved music from as early as
I can remember. And my mum has always been big
into music. You know, she played guitar and plays piano,
still does sings. Um. She was in bands as well,
(02:31):
um church bands, but bands nonetheless, I love I love
the caveat there like yeah yeah yeah so so so
you were always like music was just like in the
ether for you. Yeah yeah. And then my stepdad came
(02:53):
along when I was like twelve years old, and he
he um brought like drums into the house and like
he's a he's an incredible drum drummer and he plays
he plays everything. He plays like trumpet, you know, corn it, guitar,
bas everything, and he like our whole living was just
set up with instruments. And um, I learned drums from
(03:14):
like twelve, age twelve up until I left school, so
drums were that was my main instrument for a long time.
And yeah, I was just surrounded in it, surrounded by music.
Describe a little pep from me. What were you like
as a kid. I was incredibly shy, painfully shy, clung
to my mum, very thoughtful and the day dreamer lost
(03:39):
in my head all the time, very sensitive, very very sensitive. Yeah.
I was just a sort of quiet, sweet, sweet lit landel.
I mean, I mean that's one way of describing yourself.
And then I became a teenager and it went out
of the window. But um, yeah, no, I was. Yeah,
(04:00):
I was a very shy, very quiet kid who you know,
always struggled and social situations. What does that sense ativity
or what did that sensitivity or that struggle look like
when you were young? I think it looked like to
other people. I think it looked like I wasn't paying attention,
(04:22):
or I was I was weird. Maybe I got called
weird a lot. I remember being around seven years old
and we got in class with the teacher was like, right,
everyone in class, paint a monster. You can do whatever
you want. Just painted monster, and I was like, I
took it so seriously. I was like, this monster is
(04:44):
going to have fifty eyes and sixty legs, and I
wanted it to have all these things. And I was
painting and painting, and then it was lunchtime and she
was like, right, everyone's finished, and I was like, but
it's not finished. I haven't done a hundred legs. I'm
still painting the monster. Like, so she let me stay
(05:06):
for the rest of the day painting the damn monster, like,
because I had to do every league and every eye,
and so that was me. I feel that, Like I
feel that acutely because while I wasn't, I wasn't quite
like that, like the particularity or the or the focus
(05:31):
on a on a thing, I'm like it has to
be right, you know, is very familiar to me. And
so so this like sensitivity, like was it at home?
Was it just at school? Was it just sort of
like in the world, like tell me how your your
your sensitivity manifest when you're a kid. So home was
(05:53):
like my my like comfort space, you know. So I
was just myself like freely, my quirky. You know, I
was always a bit of a you know, around my
family and stuff. I was a bit of a clown
and you know, and then you know, school and the
outside world was was a bit harder like, and I
was very sensitive, especially sensitive to sound. Like It's funny
(06:17):
because I say this to people like and they're like,
but you're a musician. I'm like, I know, like I
don't find it's a different loudness I'm talking about. I
don't find the loudness of music. That's not the sensitive
thing for me. It's like I remember being a little
kid and walking down the street and a loud motorbike
would go past, and I would get this like internal
(06:37):
like I would want to combust, like just like I'd
want to put my hands over my ears and scream.
And I just hated that sounds. To this day, it's
a trigger for me, like hearing a loud car or
a loud motorbike. It's like it gives me such a fright.
So that was a huge that those sorts of sounds
for me were like a real big They would scare me.
(06:59):
I'd get really scared. And I sort of still have
that a little bit, but I don't outwardly show it anymore.
What did that look like when you were a kid? Like, like,
did it did you make you cry? Like did anyone
help you out? Like I would? Yeah? I would just
like you know, always cuddle into my mum and like
(07:21):
bury my head and her and you know, cry sometimes.
And Um, I just think Mum always thought I was
just a really sensitive kid, you know, I was like
a little kid in the eighties, and it's like no
one really thought much beyond that, you know. It's like
just I was just sensitive, a little bit arty, you know,
(07:41):
just a little bit. Lady, how old are you? Remind
me of how old you are? Forty two? I'm forty three, girl.
What I was born in nineteen seventy eight, So I'm
so I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, I
feel like, you know, being a weird little kid. You know,
(08:03):
a lot of kids are weird because they get like
really into their things, you know, and they haven't yet
they're trying to figure out who they are. And so
people are I think a little bit more permissive of
like weird old little kids. But like you can't be
a weirdo in middle school and you can't be a
weirdo in high school, and I wonder, like, did you
(08:24):
come to perceive your so called weirdness in any different
way as you got older. Yeah, I just never understood
why I didn't. I could see that I didn't feel
like the other kids or like the other girls, at
least I didn't see myself and other girls, and I
(08:44):
struggled with that, like, you know, I was a little
bit different, like in the sense that like I just
wasn't girly. And I guess a lot of it's there's
a lot of stuff going on here, you know, this
is like my sexuality that I wasn't aware of. Then
(09:05):
this like you know, possible mental health stuff going on,
like just the fact that I'm sensitive all these different
things you know going on that I was completely oblivious to.
So I think over the years, as I got older,
I learned to adapt, and like I was always heavily
into music, and by the time I got to like sixteen,
(09:28):
I was just fully immersed in music, and I was
playing in bands in school, and all of a sudden,
kids thought my weirdness was cool. So, like I was
in a band and I was playing drums, and I
was odd I was a little bit cookie, and that's
when I realized that doing music was something that people
(09:51):
could relate to, and it seemed to draw people to me,
and so like that was a way for me to connect.
That was like the first time I remember being thinking,
I can connect to people now because everyone loves music
and I love music and I play it and ye.
And that also, unfortunately, around the same time as when
(10:11):
I learned that drinking helps my social anxieties. So that's
when my teen the teen drinking started. I know, what
was it. What was the name of your first band?
Do you remember? Oh my god, it's the worst name.
We were called gel, like the hair just just I
don't even know who thought that, like like g e L. Yeah, Okay,
(10:36):
I mean that's not I don't think that's terrible. I
remember at the time thinking it was terrible. I was like, shit,
this is fair. So music was like your escape, Like
music was where you could sort of bury yourself in
a good way and like you found relief there. Yeah, yeah,
I always have yeah. Yeah. And then like at what
(10:59):
point were you like, huh, I think this is like
my path, Like I think this is like or maybe
you didn't make that decision. It just was made for
you because you're you were having increasing success. I went
to so when high school finished, I went to university
and studied a Bachelor of Design. So while like at
(11:20):
the same time as applying for that, I applied for
the School of Music in Wellington and I ended up
deciding to go to the school design. While at the
design school, I met a couple of other kids exactly
the same age as me who wanted to be in
a band, and I was like, yeah, I play I
play charms, play guitar, Like, you know, let's start a band.
So I started a band and we we would just
(11:43):
like popping off in my town, you know, like it's
going really well. And that's when I was like, I
realized because I was I was majoring in photography, I
realized everything I was doing in my degree was was
music related. So I would every project was photographic bands
or going to live gigs, and you know, like all
(12:05):
my off campus activities were like music editor for the
local magazine, was like doing all this sort of stuff.
And I was like, this is actually what I want
to be doing, and I'm really glad I'm not studying it,
because sometimes studying something can take the joy out of
it totally. Yeah. So I ended up like touring with
my band. We went to the States and everything, and
I ended up missing my graduation because I was in
(12:25):
New York playing show. So I think that's like that
was kind of the whole awakening for me. I was like, yeah,
this is this is all I'm gonna do now. So
so you're You've gone to college, but you you're skip
your graduation, You're you're in this band. It's successful. Like
did you feel then, like You're like, oh, I'm not
like I'm not a weirdo, I'm not different, like my
(12:48):
my struggles and my socialize it like everything kind of
felt better or was that just under the surface for you? Yeah,
it was like like life just kept moving for me,
and like I didn't want to stand still, and I
did have crippling anxieties, but I also I couldn't stand
(13:10):
to not keep moving, you know, like I needed to
keep moving. So I went aware of the music took me.
And I would say the fact that I've done music
as a career and I've literally had to force myself
to be in situations that everything inside of me is going, no,
(13:34):
don't get on that plane. Don't sit in that fuselage
with three hundred strangers, you know, Like every part of
my body was telling me not to do that, yet
I had to constantly do it. I just constantly be
on airplanes, you know, And so I knew I still
(13:56):
had some stuff going on. Like I knew there was
some crippling stuff going on, but that's just for me.
I was like, I have to keep going, so I
have to do whatever it takes to make this easier, which,
unfortunately for me, was drinking and taking pills, which was
like just self medicating with XANX and alcohol. So that's
that's how I was able to just like go on
(14:17):
the plane and like play shows and d all this stuff.
But I knew I had to do it. I just
didn't know how to without the help of these other things. Right. Yeah.
I think I've always had a lot of ambition, but
I always needed more. I was just like this hungry
monster that was never satisfied, you know, and I just
needed more and more and more, and I wanted to
(14:38):
just devour everything and see as much as I could.
And the desire for all of that overrode the the
inside stuff that was going on and telling me to
stay put. So in a way, I'm glad. I know.
I'm I'm a bit of a sort like an oxymoron.
I'm like, I'm a little bit of both, and I'm
I'm opposite, you know, I'm one thing and then another.
(15:02):
But it's because I have to have these things done,
you know, I can't not see something through. I do it.
I have to do it, you know. Yo. Yeah, I
mean you're you're speaking my language here. I feel as
though I'm like an introverted extrovert and yeah, that's what
I always died about myself to right right, and that
(15:22):
you know, uh it is you know, I mean going
through this process like of you know, getting a diagnosis
and then and then having to tell people and people
being like get out, like shut up, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um.
And I'm like interesting that you in this thirty seconds
(15:43):
became an autism expert and you're telling me about my life.
But okay, cool. Um. But I wondered, like, did you
ever have a clue You're like, because you felt like
you were a little bit weird, a little bit different
than you found music and it was a relief. But
did you sense like something's something there's something else. Yeah, yeah,
(16:05):
there was that feeling for me. And when I was
living in mail Robin, I was struggling a lot with
going outside. I was struggling with like getting on public
transport to go to my job, which was I worked
at a bar, and I was like, it's just it
was just so And I remember thinking to myself, this
(16:25):
shouldn't be this hard for a person. Other people don't
find it that hard to walk out the front door
and like get in a train or is it because
I was in Melbourne get on a tram and you know,
get the number eighty six tram to Collingwood where I worked.
But for me, it was like I would I had
(16:45):
the cyclical thoughts in my head of everything that could
go wrong in the time that I stepped out of
the door and hopped onto the tram. So for me,
my biggest fear has always been the unpredictability of other people.
And I hate getting on like public transport and not
knowing what's going to happen because strangers are just like crazy,
instantly crazy. To me, I'm like, anyone could do anything
(17:06):
at any point, and like, so I hopped on a tram,
I really, really mentally worked myself up to it and
I got on the tram. I was like sweating and
I felt sick. I was like, I'm nautious, I'm nauseous.
And I was sitting there and this like junkie couple
hopped on the next stop and instantly the check just
(17:28):
puked on the ground and I went and that's my
worst that's like my worst nightmare. Like you couldn't put
me in a worse situation. And I was like I
was having a meltdown, and like I had to get
off the tram and I called my girlfriend at the time,
and I was like, I'm off the tram, Come come
get me, help me. Someone a junkie puked, Like that
(17:54):
was I'm laughing so much because this is like this
is exactly my feeling, Like I feel you on this
so hard, because like I do not like that unpredictability
of like any kind of erratic behavior is very stressful
(18:14):
to me. So like me too, and I'm fearful that
the thing is gonna impact me. What's happening. I'm fearful
that it's gonna happen on me. Oh yeah, well you
don't want to get bathed up. I don't want to
get bathed on or pooped on, or like all the
things I've seen happen. My social anxiety when I was
a kid up and through probably you know, college, was
(18:40):
like that. I would throw up in public, and I
would make myself so nervous about the idea and I
would and because I was anxious about that, I would
get a stomach ache, and the stomach ache would say
to me, oh, you're gonna throw up in public, so
so I would have to like sit out. Like I'd
(19:01):
be all ready to go for like Halloween trick or
treating and then feel super anxious, feel like I was
gonna throw up, and then have to sit it out.
And I never puked ever. I never did. You've just
described my entire childhood that exact thing. Yeah, was my thing,
And I always God would work myself up to the
(19:23):
point where I felt nautious, and then I'd be like,
I'm gonna puke. I'm gonna puke, I'm gonna puke, I'm puke,
and I'd be like please please, I'm like I would
live a puke and I would always have to get
sent home from school as well and be like I
can't I can't do this class. I feel sick. I
feel sick. I'm gonna be sick right right. It was
just like it was awful and it followed me around
for years, that ship. Oh my god, me too, me too.
(19:46):
I mean it is it is so debilitating, and you know,
it just it feels so bad. It feels so bad
to have anxiety like that. That's prevent like irrational, that
is preventing you from doing things anyway. So you so
you're like on this tram and the drunkie barbs and
(20:09):
You're like, I'm done. And so I'm guessing at that
point you were like, this feels air typical. Yeah, it was.
For me, it was I didn't know. I didn't have
any words to put to it, and I was like,
there's something going on, and I knew I needed help,
but I didn't didn't seek it out for a while
after that, like, I then moved to Sydney and because Nick,
(20:32):
who I was making music, lived in Sydney and and
just the scene there was where I wanted to be.
I wanted to I'd loads of friends up there making music.
So me and my girlfriend at the time moved up
to Sydney and which was an amazing move for me,
but it also it sort of made me face that
stuff hit on because I was like, well, now I'm
living in King's Cross in Sydney, which is like junkie
(20:56):
capital of Australia, you know, and I was like this
is you know, I was sort of living behind the
police station and I heard the things I heard at nighttime.
I just I'll tell you, I couldn't. It was awful,
like um and I and the anxiety levels were just terrible,
(21:16):
and you know, like my thought patterns and I saw
I remember thinking I need it. I need to talk
to somebody about it. And I started seeing a therapist
in Sydney, and I remember after seeing her for a bit,
she said, um, I think you have mild Aspergers, so
so nonchalantly said that, and I was like, what, yeah,
(21:38):
I think you have mild Aspergers. And I was like right, okay, bye,
and I left and even went back. And then I
spent then I spent years with that and and didn't
know how to process it or what to do with it,
and like went through this entire journey without ever following
(21:59):
it up. And then finally like got sober, which was great.
Did it all on my own congratulations, that's great, thank you.
So I seven years sober now, yeah. And then started
seeing a therapist two years ago who also, um like
he's amazing, um and he's explained everything about the way
(22:19):
my brain works and um. And he also diagnosed me
with OCD, with the obsessive compulsive disorder UM of the
the not the type where you like have to turn
a light switch on and off or do that, but
this the repetitive cyclical thoughts is like that's all wrapped
up and everything to do with you, so you know,
and and generalized anxiety disorder and depression of course, just
(22:41):
to you know, round it all off nicely. Um, I know.
I mean it's a it's a it's always like a
super tufer, you know, you know, you know, never it's
never just one thing. That's like it's like a whole collection.
It's like a cornucopia. Shit. Yeah, yeah, you know, And
and how to wear through it and so for you,
(23:03):
like you you get sober and you you have like
you go see this great therapist. Did it did it
fuck you up? Learning all this stuff? Did it did
it make you to provide you with relief? Like? Yeah,
you know was it was like, ah, finally understand myself
or was there some period where you're like spinning out
(23:25):
because it's like so much stuff. I think the point
I got to where I got help with my current therapist,
who I've been with for a couple of years now,
I was at one of the worst points in my life.
So I think I was at that point where I
had postnatal depression as well. That's another lovely thing. I
(23:46):
was diagnosement. So I was at such a point in
my life that I was desperate to try anything. I
just wanted to be helped, and I felt terrible, and
I remember thinking, I don't want to be this person
for my daughter. I want to do everything in my
power to make myself the best person I can be,
(24:06):
not just for myself but for her. So she sees
me at my best all the time. Well obviously not
all the time, but you know, like as good as
I could give her. So um, yeah, I went. I
sort of went to see him and all the stuff
he explained to me and the diagnoses, and you know,
(24:26):
starting medication was a just an absolute relief, like I felt, like,
you know, I said to him through tears because I
was crying, as you do in the therapy, I was like,
I just wish that this had happened to me years ago,
Like I wish i'd met you years ago, you know.
(24:47):
And he just listened to me and he knew exactly
and he explained stuff to me like he was like, oh,
of course you're feeling like that. That's because this is happening.
Your brain's making way too much adrenaline. It's sending out
SOS signals. Every time you see something mildly stressful to you,
it's sending out adrenaline like something horrific's about to happen.
(25:08):
He was, so that puts too much adrenaline in your system.
It makes you exhausted. Your serotonin's depleted, so we need
to we need to help your brain to get back
to making serotonin at a normal level. So that he
explained it in that way, and I was like, no
once ever said that to me, Like I've never had
(25:30):
it explained like that, and you know, you talked me
through the medication is where he was like, you're going
to feel really bad at first, because it does, like
you know, but you got to push through it. And
he was like, message me every single day, you know
when you when you take. When you take the pill,
pop your earbuds in and go for a walk, listen
to a podcast, you know, get into that hid space
and push through it. And then after you know, hopefully
(25:52):
after just a week, you should be feeling great and
you know, having that connection and that sort of like
just nonchalance, but like very he was just so careful
with the way he talked to me, and he was
very like caring and like made it out like nothing
was a big deal, Like, oh, of course you're worried
about taking the pill. Of course this you know, like
(26:13):
I've always been so scared of having an allergic reaction
that would make me throw up. So it all goes
back to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so like you,
you landed on, you landed on a name or names
for for how you were feeling and how you were acting,
and and that was a great relief, amongst other things
(26:35):
like how did you talk to your friends and family
about it? Did you? Or were you just like, this
is my private thing to deal with, and you know,
I'll just deal with it with the Aspergers thing, like
when that happened, I yeah, I did tell people, and
then I faced years of every one's a bit like that,
Oh yeah, oh no, there's nothing wrong with you. You're
(26:58):
no like I faced years of that, so I just
stopped talking about it. Yeah, and then with the OCD
diagnosis and you know, all the other stuff. I think
because it has happened in the last two years, discussion
with mental illness is so much more out in the
open now, so that when I've told my friends, everyone's
(27:19):
actually gone, oh that makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
that does make a lot of sense. Yeah, we understand,
you know. So I especially with the postnatal depression, I
think that was that was very obvious to everybody because
I was not you know, I was not coping very well.
So I think like having those diagnoses, I just had
a lot of support from people. And I think the
ASPERG just one has been was the because it happened
(27:42):
so long ago, was you know, unfortunately, the timing of
that just wasn't great, right, This wasn't great for me
and for people's understanding or acceptance of it. Um. So
I just I unfortunately just had to bury it and
move on, Yeah, which is what I did. Yeah, right right, Yeah,
I mean I you know, I don't know that people's
(28:04):
understanding is that much better now, I mean, and its
just like people don't get it, Like people don't have
a sense of what that means. And people people just
think like you should be like rain Man or like
rocking in a corner or something like that, which like
I'm like, sometimes I am rocking in a corner, so
shut up. Yeah, but that's been really you know, if
(28:29):
you tell people, I'm guessing at least women, you say
I've postnatal depression, people are like, I get it, Like
I understand, and even with anxiety, I think we know
enough about that. People are like, I get it. But
I think if you say autism, people are like the fuck, like,
what do you mean? What are you talking about? You
(28:49):
know that's frustrating exactly. Yeah, it is because the way
it's been portrayed I think in media is just one
aspect of autism as well. I you know, like I say,
it's a spectrum rises everything, you know, a sexuality, everything,
But the way the media has always portrayed it in
films as the way I think people think that's what
(29:11):
it is. So like when you say, oh, I've got
a spurges or what's oh, it's a no, it's on
the autism spectrum. They're like, oh, you're not right, right right, yeah,
and then there's no real response that you can give
that feel satisfying. You're just like yeah, I'm always like
all right, yeah, whatever. I guess you're an expert. Cool. Yeah, yeah.
(29:32):
Is there like now that you've sort of processed all
of these things in a you know, in a healthier,
safer a way, Like, have you come to a different
understanding of the way that all of these traits operate
in your life? Like have you made peace with it
or with this collection of of diagnoses or traits or
(29:55):
whatever where you just like you feel like, okay, that's me,
Like that's cool. Yeah, yeah, I have. And I think
I've come to a point where I'm really proud of myself.
Like I'm proud of who I am and and the
sort of person it makes me. And I I'm proud
that I got to the point in my life where
I could do some positive things for my mental health
(30:16):
and be you know, surround myself with people who can
support me and help that. I think it's for a
long time I was running away and ignoring it and
didn't want to face it. So yeah, I'm totally I'm
in such a good place now and I'm I'm I'm glad,
I am who I am? I mean just talking to
you like you seem like a total delight and like
(30:36):
a joyful person. And I think people have a notion
that you know, you say you're autistic or neurodivergent, if
anybody even understands what that is. But like that your
your life is all suffering and that you're sad and
it's bad, and you know, to be able to say, nah,
(30:58):
I'm I'm cool, like I'm in a good place and
like knowledge, I mean not to be cheesy, but like
the knowledge is power kind of thing, you know, Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,
it's true. One last question, do you want to be
my autistic friend? Yes? Yes, you can show me all
(31:18):
the things in It would actually be a great honor
and a pleasure of mine if you came here. Thank
you so much, Pips really appreciate it. Oh thanks for
having me. All right, talk to you soon. Bye. You
can check out my new best friend, Lady Hawk's latest album,
(31:38):
Time Flies on your favorite streaming service, and you can
find her on Instagram and Twitter at lady Hawk for you,
that's Lady Hawk with any This episode was produced by
David Jah and edited by Sophie Crane, mix engineering by
Jake Gorsky. Special thanks to Janina Finn for making this happen.
(32:00):
Thanks to you friend for listening. Token
Pushkin. When I was thinking about who would compose the
music for my life story, there was only one person
I really considered, the New Zealand singer songwriter, multi instrumentalist,
synth pop legend Lady Hawk. Number one because I'm a
(00:38):
sucker for a killer hook zue me and that is
one hundred percent Lady Hawk's wheelhouse. And number two, she's autistic.
I figured if anyone would get the vibe we were
going for, it would be her. But Lady Hawk, whose
offstage name is Pitt Brown, isn't just a pop star.
She's also a parent, a prolific gamer, and now possibly
(01:02):
my new best friend. But she can probably tell you
all that herself. Hey, I'm Lady Hook, or you can
call me Pip from New Zealand. I'm a singer songwriter.
I've been making music for very very long time now,
and yeah, I'm just residing in Auckland currently Auckland, New Zealand,
(01:25):
and handling the pandemic like everyone else. So so do
we have ever in like, describe your music for people
who haven't heard it? So I guess my sound is
like I'm big on nostalgia, So whatever you know that
(01:47):
brings to me is what sort of comes out in
my music. So like, I try and make a song
that makes you feel nostalgic listening to it, even though
you mightn't have heard it before. So you know, vintage,
since driving beats, like just all that sort of stuff.
I just love. I love nostalgic pop. So I guess
(02:08):
I'm indie pop, electro, a little bit of rock. Did
you listen to a ton of music when you were
a kid or did you grow up in a musical household? Yeah?
I Um, I just loved music from as early as
I can remember. And my mum has always been big
into music. You know, she played guitar and plays piano,
still does sings. Um. She was in bands as well,
(02:31):
um church bands, but bands nonetheless, I love I love
the caveat there like yeah yeah yeah so so so
you were always like music was just like in the
ether for you. Yeah yeah. And then my stepdad came
(02:53):
along when I was like twelve years old, and he
he um brought like drums into the house and like
he's a he's an incredible drum drummer and he plays
he plays everything. He plays like trumpet, you know, corn it, guitar,
bas everything, and he like our whole living was just
set up with instruments. And um, I learned drums from
(03:14):
like twelve, age twelve up until I left school, so
drums were that was my main instrument for a long time.
And yeah, I was just surrounded in it, surrounded by music.
Describe a little pep from me. What were you like
as a kid. I was incredibly shy, painfully shy, clung
to my mum, very thoughtful and the day dreamer lost
(03:39):
in my head all the time, very sensitive, very very sensitive. Yeah.
I was just a sort of quiet, sweet, sweet lit landel.
I mean, I mean that's one way of describing yourself.
And then I became a teenager and it went out
of the window. But um, yeah, no, I was. Yeah,
(04:00):
I was a very shy, very quiet kid who you know,
always struggled and social situations. What does that sense ativity
or what did that sensitivity or that struggle look like
when you were young? I think it looked like to
other people. I think it looked like I wasn't paying attention,
(04:22):
or I was I was weird. Maybe I got called
weird a lot. I remember being around seven years old
and we got in class with the teacher was like, right,
everyone in class, paint a monster. You can do whatever
you want. Just painted monster, and I was like, I
took it so seriously. I was like, this monster is
(04:44):
going to have fifty eyes and sixty legs, and I
wanted it to have all these things. And I was
painting and painting, and then it was lunchtime and she
was like, right, everyone's finished, and I was like, but
it's not finished. I haven't done a hundred legs. I'm
still painting the monster. Like, so she let me stay
(05:06):
for the rest of the day painting the damn monster, like,
because I had to do every league and every eye,
and so that was me. I feel that, Like I
feel that acutely because while I wasn't, I wasn't quite
like that, like the particularity or the or the focus
(05:31):
on a on a thing, I'm like it has to
be right, you know, is very familiar to me. And
so so this like sensitivity, like was it at home?
Was it just at school? Was it just sort of
like in the world, like tell me how your your
your sensitivity manifest when you're a kid. So home was
(05:53):
like my my like comfort space, you know. So I
was just myself like freely, my quirky. You know, I
was always a bit of a you know, around my
family and stuff. I was a bit of a clown
and you know, and then you know, school and the
outside world was was a bit harder like, and I
was very sensitive, especially sensitive to sound. Like It's funny
(06:17):
because I say this to people like and they're like,
but you're a musician. I'm like, I know, like I
don't find it's a different loudness I'm talking about. I
don't find the loudness of music. That's not the sensitive
thing for me. It's like I remember being a little
kid and walking down the street and a loud motorbike
would go past, and I would get this like internal
(06:37):
like I would want to combust, like just like I'd
want to put my hands over my ears and scream.
And I just hated that sounds. To this day, it's
a trigger for me, like hearing a loud car or
a loud motorbike. It's like it gives me such a fright.
So that was a huge that those sorts of sounds
for me were like a real big They would scare me.
(06:59):
I'd get really scared. And I sort of still have
that a little bit, but I don't outwardly show it anymore.
What did that look like when you were a kid? Like, like,
did it did you make you cry? Like did anyone
help you out? Like I would? Yeah? I would just
like you know, always cuddle into my mum and like
(07:21):
bury my head and her and you know, cry sometimes.
And Um, I just think Mum always thought I was
just a really sensitive kid, you know, I was like
a little kid in the eighties, and it's like no
one really thought much beyond that, you know. It's like
just I was just sensitive, a little bit arty, you know,
(07:41):
just a little bit. Lady, how old are you? Remind
me of how old you are? Forty two? I'm forty three, girl.
What I was born in nineteen seventy eight, So I'm
so I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, I
feel like, you know, being a weird little kid. You know,
(08:03):
a lot of kids are weird because they get like
really into their things, you know, and they haven't yet
they're trying to figure out who they are. And so
people are I think a little bit more permissive of
like weird old little kids. But like you can't be
a weirdo in middle school and you can't be a
weirdo in high school, and I wonder, like, did you
(08:24):
come to perceive your so called weirdness in any different
way as you got older. Yeah, I just never understood
why I didn't. I could see that I didn't feel
like the other kids or like the other girls, at
least I didn't see myself and other girls, and I
(08:44):
struggled with that, like, you know, I was a little
bit different, like in the sense that like I just
wasn't girly. And I guess a lot of it's there's
a lot of stuff going on here, you know, this
is like my sexuality that I wasn't aware of. Then
(09:05):
this like you know, possible mental health stuff going on,
like just the fact that I'm sensitive all these different
things you know going on that I was completely oblivious to.
So I think over the years, as I got older,
I learned to adapt, and like I was always heavily
into music, and by the time I got to like sixteen,
(09:28):
I was just fully immersed in music, and I was
playing in bands in school, and all of a sudden,
kids thought my weirdness was cool. So, like I was
in a band and I was playing drums, and I
was odd I was a little bit cookie, and that's
when I realized that doing music was something that people
(09:51):
could relate to, and it seemed to draw people to me,
and so like that was a way for me to connect.
That was like the first time I remember being thinking,
I can connect to people now because everyone loves music
and I love music and I play it and ye.
And that also, unfortunately, around the same time as when
(10:11):
I learned that drinking helps my social anxieties. So that's
when my teen the teen drinking started. I know, what
was it. What was the name of your first band?
Do you remember? Oh my god, it's the worst name.
We were called gel, like the hair just just I
don't even know who thought that, like like g e L. Yeah, Okay,
(10:36):
I mean that's not I don't think that's terrible. I
remember at the time thinking it was terrible. I was like, shit,
this is fair. So music was like your escape, Like
music was where you could sort of bury yourself in
a good way and like you found relief there. Yeah, yeah,
I always have yeah. Yeah. And then like at what
(10:59):
point were you like, huh, I think this is like
my path, Like I think this is like or maybe
you didn't make that decision. It just was made for
you because you're you were having increasing success. I went
to so when high school finished, I went to university
and studied a Bachelor of Design. So while like at
(11:20):
the same time as applying for that, I applied for
the School of Music in Wellington and I ended up
deciding to go to the school design. While at the
design school, I met a couple of other kids exactly
the same age as me who wanted to be in
a band, and I was like, yeah, I play I
play charms, play guitar, Like, you know, let's start a band.
So I started a band and we we would just
(11:43):
like popping off in my town, you know, like it's
going really well. And that's when I was like, I
realized because I was I was majoring in photography, I
realized everything I was doing in my degree was was
music related. So I would every project was photographic bands
or going to live gigs, and you know, like all
(12:05):
my off campus activities were like music editor for the
local magazine, was like doing all this sort of stuff.
And I was like, this is actually what I want
to be doing, and I'm really glad I'm not studying it,
because sometimes studying something can take the joy out of
it totally. Yeah. So I ended up like touring with
my band. We went to the States and everything, and
I ended up missing my graduation because I was in
(12:25):
New York playing show. So I think that's like that
was kind of the whole awakening for me. I was like, yeah,
this is this is all I'm gonna do now. So
so you're You've gone to college, but you you're skip
your graduation, You're you're in this band. It's successful. Like
did you feel then, like You're like, oh, I'm not
like I'm not a weirdo, I'm not different, like my
(12:48):
my struggles and my socialize it like everything kind of
felt better or was that just under the surface for you? Yeah,
it was like like life just kept moving for me,
and like I didn't want to stand still, and I
did have crippling anxieties, but I also I couldn't stand
(13:10):
to not keep moving, you know, like I needed to
keep moving. So I went aware of the music took me.
And I would say the fact that I've done music
as a career and I've literally had to force myself
to be in situations that everything inside of me is going, no,
(13:34):
don't get on that plane. Don't sit in that fuselage
with three hundred strangers, you know, Like every part of
my body was telling me not to do that, yet
I had to constantly do it. I just constantly be
on airplanes, you know, And so I knew I still
(13:56):
had some stuff going on. Like I knew there was
some crippling stuff going on, but that's just for me.
I was like, I have to keep going, so I
have to do whatever it takes to make this easier, which,
unfortunately for me, was drinking and taking pills, which was
like just self medicating with XANX and alcohol. So that's
that's how I was able to just like go on
(14:17):
the plane and like play shows and d all this stuff.
But I knew I had to do it. I just
didn't know how to without the help of these other things. Right. Yeah.
I think I've always had a lot of ambition, but
I always needed more. I was just like this hungry
monster that was never satisfied, you know, and I just
needed more and more and more, and I wanted to
(14:38):
just devour everything and see as much as I could.
And the desire for all of that overrode the the
inside stuff that was going on and telling me to
stay put. So in a way, I'm glad. I know.
I'm I'm a bit of a sort like an oxymoron.
I'm like, I'm a little bit of both, and I'm
I'm opposite, you know, I'm one thing and then another.
(15:02):
But it's because I have to have these things done,
you know, I can't not see something through. I do it.
I have to do it, you know. Yo. Yeah, I
mean you're you're speaking my language here. I feel as
though I'm like an introverted extrovert and yeah, that's what
I always died about myself to right right, and that
(15:22):
you know, uh it is you know, I mean going
through this process like of you know, getting a diagnosis
and then and then having to tell people and people
being like get out, like shut up, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um.
And I'm like interesting that you in this thirty seconds
(15:43):
became an autism expert and you're telling me about my life.
But okay, cool. Um. But I wondered, like, did you
ever have a clue You're like, because you felt like
you were a little bit weird, a little bit different
than you found music and it was a relief. But
did you sense like something's something there's something else. Yeah, yeah,
(16:05):
there was that feeling for me. And when I was
living in mail Robin, I was struggling a lot with
going outside. I was struggling with like getting on public
transport to go to my job, which was I worked
at a bar, and I was like, it's just it
was just so And I remember thinking to myself, this
(16:25):
shouldn't be this hard for a person. Other people don't
find it that hard to walk out the front door
and like get in a train or is it because
I was in Melbourne get on a tram and you know,
get the number eighty six tram to Collingwood where I worked.
But for me, it was like I would I had
(16:45):
the cyclical thoughts in my head of everything that could
go wrong in the time that I stepped out of
the door and hopped onto the tram. So for me,
my biggest fear has always been the unpredictability of other people.
And I hate getting on like public transport and not
knowing what's going to happen because strangers are just like crazy,
instantly crazy. To me, I'm like, anyone could do anything
(17:06):
at any point, and like, so I hopped on a tram,
I really, really mentally worked myself up to it and
I got on the tram. I was like sweating and
I felt sick. I was like, I'm nautious, I'm nauseous.
And I was sitting there and this like junkie couple
hopped on the next stop and instantly the check just
(17:28):
puked on the ground and I went and that's my
worst that's like my worst nightmare. Like you couldn't put
me in a worse situation. And I was like I
was having a meltdown, and like I had to get
off the tram and I called my girlfriend at the time,
and I was like, I'm off the tram, Come come
get me, help me. Someone a junkie puked, Like that
(17:54):
was I'm laughing so much because this is like this
is exactly my feeling, Like I feel you on this
so hard, because like I do not like that unpredictability
of like any kind of erratic behavior is very stressful
(18:14):
to me. So like me too, and I'm fearful that
the thing is gonna impact me. What's happening. I'm fearful
that it's gonna happen on me. Oh yeah, well you
don't want to get bathed up. I don't want to
get bathed on or pooped on, or like all the
things I've seen happen. My social anxiety when I was
a kid up and through probably you know, college, was
(18:40):
like that. I would throw up in public, and I
would make myself so nervous about the idea and I
would and because I was anxious about that, I would
get a stomach ache, and the stomach ache would say
to me, oh, you're gonna throw up in public, so
so I would have to like sit out. Like I'd
(19:01):
be all ready to go for like Halloween trick or
treating and then feel super anxious, feel like I was
gonna throw up, and then have to sit it out.
And I never puked ever. I never did. You've just
described my entire childhood that exact thing. Yeah, was my thing,
And I always God would work myself up to the
(19:23):
point where I felt nautious, and then I'd be like,
I'm gonna puke. I'm gonna puke, I'm gonna puke, I'm puke,
and I'd be like please please, I'm like I would
live a puke and I would always have to get
sent home from school as well and be like I
can't I can't do this class. I feel sick. I
feel sick. I'm gonna be sick right right. It was
just like it was awful and it followed me around
for years, that ship. Oh my god, me too, me too.
(19:46):
I mean it is it is so debilitating, and you know,
it just it feels so bad. It feels so bad
to have anxiety like that. That's prevent like irrational, that
is preventing you from doing things anyway. So you so
you're like on this tram and the drunkie barbs and
(20:09):
You're like, I'm done. And so I'm guessing at that
point you were like, this feels air typical. Yeah, it was.
For me, it was I didn't know. I didn't have
any words to put to it, and I was like,
there's something going on, and I knew I needed help,
but I didn't didn't seek it out for a while
after that, like, I then moved to Sydney and because Nick,
(20:32):
who I was making music, lived in Sydney and and
just the scene there was where I wanted to be.
I wanted to I'd loads of friends up there making music.
So me and my girlfriend at the time moved up
to Sydney and which was an amazing move for me,
but it also it sort of made me face that
stuff hit on because I was like, well, now I'm
living in King's Cross in Sydney, which is like junkie
(20:56):
capital of Australia, you know, and I was like this
is you know, I was sort of living behind the
police station and I heard the things I heard at nighttime.
I just I'll tell you, I couldn't. It was awful,
like um and I and the anxiety levels were just terrible,
(21:16):
and you know, like my thought patterns and I saw
I remember thinking I need it. I need to talk
to somebody about it. And I started seeing a therapist
in Sydney, and I remember after seeing her for a bit,
she said, um, I think you have mild Aspergers, so
so nonchalantly said that, and I was like, what, yeah,
(21:38):
I think you have mild Aspergers. And I was like right, okay, bye,
and I left and even went back. And then I
spent then I spent years with that and and didn't
know how to process it or what to do with it,
and like went through this entire journey without ever following
(21:59):
it up. And then finally like got sober, which was great.
Did it all on my own congratulations, that's great, thank you.
So I seven years sober now, yeah. And then started
seeing a therapist two years ago who also, um like
he's amazing, um and he's explained everything about the way
(22:19):
my brain works and um. And he also diagnosed me
with OCD, with the obsessive compulsive disorder UM of the
the not the type where you like have to turn
a light switch on and off or do that, but
this the repetitive cyclical thoughts is like that's all wrapped
up and everything to do with you, so you know,
and and generalized anxiety disorder and depression of course, just
(22:41):
to you know, round it all off nicely. Um, I know.
I mean it's a it's a it's always like a
super tufer, you know, you know, you know, never it's
never just one thing. That's like it's like a whole collection.
It's like a cornucopia. Shit. Yeah, yeah, you know, And
and how to wear through it and so for you,
(23:03):
like you you get sober and you you have like
you go see this great therapist. Did it did it
fuck you up? Learning all this stuff? Did it did
it make you to provide you with relief? Like? Yeah,
you know was it was like, ah, finally understand myself
or was there some period where you're like spinning out
(23:25):
because it's like so much stuff. I think the point
I got to where I got help with my current therapist,
who I've been with for a couple of years now,
I was at one of the worst points in my life.
So I think I was at that point where I
had postnatal depression as well. That's another lovely thing. I
(23:46):
was diagnosement. So I was at such a point in
my life that I was desperate to try anything. I
just wanted to be helped, and I felt terrible, and
I remember thinking, I don't want to be this person
for my daughter. I want to do everything in my
power to make myself the best person I can be,
(24:06):
not just for myself but for her. So she sees
me at my best all the time. Well obviously not
all the time, but you know, like as good as
I could give her. So um, yeah, I went. I
sort of went to see him and all the stuff
he explained to me and the diagnoses, and you know,
(24:26):
starting medication was a just an absolute relief, like I felt, like,
you know, I said to him through tears because I
was crying, as you do in the therapy, I was like,
I just wish that this had happened to me years ago,
Like I wish i'd met you years ago, you know.
(24:47):
And he just listened to me and he knew exactly
and he explained stuff to me like he was like, oh,
of course you're feeling like that. That's because this is happening.
Your brain's making way too much adrenaline. It's sending out
SOS signals. Every time you see something mildly stressful to you,
it's sending out adrenaline like something horrific's about to happen.
(25:08):
He was, so that puts too much adrenaline in your system.
It makes you exhausted. Your serotonin's depleted, so we need
to we need to help your brain to get back
to making serotonin at a normal level. So that he
explained it in that way, and I was like, no
once ever said that to me, Like I've never had
(25:30):
it explained like that, and you know, you talked me
through the medication is where he was like, you're going
to feel really bad at first, because it does, like
you know, but you got to push through it. And
he was like, message me every single day, you know
when you when you take. When you take the pill,
pop your earbuds in and go for a walk, listen
to a podcast, you know, get into that hid space
and push through it. And then after you know, hopefully
(25:52):
after just a week, you should be feeling great and
you know, having that connection and that sort of like
just nonchalance, but like very he was just so careful
with the way he talked to me, and he was
very like caring and like made it out like nothing
was a big deal, Like, oh, of course you're worried
about taking the pill. Of course this you know, like
(26:13):
I've always been so scared of having an allergic reaction
that would make me throw up. So it all goes
back to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so like you,
you landed on, you landed on a name or names
for for how you were feeling and how you were acting,
and and that was a great relief, amongst other things
(26:35):
like how did you talk to your friends and family
about it? Did you? Or were you just like, this
is my private thing to deal with, and you know,
I'll just deal with it with the Aspergers thing, like
when that happened, I yeah, I did tell people, and
then I faced years of every one's a bit like that,
Oh yeah, oh no, there's nothing wrong with you. You're
(26:58):
no like I faced years of that, so I just
stopped talking about it. Yeah, and then with the OCD
diagnosis and you know, all the other stuff. I think
because it has happened in the last two years, discussion
with mental illness is so much more out in the
open now, so that when I've told my friends, everyone's
(27:19):
actually gone, oh that makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
that does make a lot of sense. Yeah, we understand,
you know. So I especially with the postnatal depression, I
think that was that was very obvious to everybody because
I was not you know, I was not coping very well.
So I think like having those diagnoses, I just had
a lot of support from people. And I think the
ASPERG just one has been was the because it happened
(27:42):
so long ago, was you know, unfortunately, the timing of
that just wasn't great, right, This wasn't great for me
and for people's understanding or acceptance of it. Um. So
I just I unfortunately just had to bury it and
move on, Yeah, which is what I did. Yeah, right right, Yeah,
I mean I you know, I don't know that people's
(28:04):
understanding is that much better now, I mean, and its
just like people don't get it, Like people don't have
a sense of what that means. And people people just
think like you should be like rain Man or like
rocking in a corner or something like that, which like
I'm like, sometimes I am rocking in a corner, so
shut up. Yeah, but that's been really you know, if
(28:29):
you tell people, I'm guessing at least women, you say
I've postnatal depression, people are like, I get it, Like
I understand, and even with anxiety, I think we know
enough about that. People are like, I get it. But
I think if you say autism, people are like the fuck, like,
what do you mean? What are you talking about? You
(28:49):
know that's frustrating exactly. Yeah, it is because the way
it's been portrayed I think in media is just one
aspect of autism as well. I you know, like I say,
it's a spectrum rises everything, you know, a sexuality, everything,
But the way the media has always portrayed it in
films as the way I think people think that's what
(29:11):
it is. So like when you say, oh, I've got
a spurges or what's oh, it's a no, it's on
the autism spectrum. They're like, oh, you're not right, right right, yeah,
and then there's no real response that you can give
that feel satisfying. You're just like yeah, I'm always like
all right, yeah, whatever. I guess you're an expert. Cool. Yeah, yeah.
(29:32):
Is there like now that you've sort of processed all
of these things in a you know, in a healthier,
safer a way, Like, have you come to a different
understanding of the way that all of these traits operate
in your life? Like have you made peace with it
or with this collection of of diagnoses or traits or
(29:55):
whatever where you just like you feel like, okay, that's me,
Like that's cool. Yeah, yeah, I have. And I think
I've come to a point where I'm really proud of myself.
Like I'm proud of who I am and and the
sort of person it makes me. And I I'm proud
that I got to the point in my life where
I could do some positive things for my mental health
(30:16):
and be you know, surround myself with people who can
support me and help that. I think it's for a
long time I was running away and ignoring it and
didn't want to face it. So yeah, I'm totally I'm
in such a good place now and I'm I'm I'm glad,
I am who I am? I mean just talking to
you like you seem like a total delight and like
(30:36):
a joyful person. And I think people have a notion
that you know, you say you're autistic or neurodivergent, if
anybody even understands what that is. But like that your
your life is all suffering and that you're sad and
it's bad, and you know, to be able to say, nah,
(30:58):
I'm I'm cool, like I'm in a good place and
like knowledge, I mean not to be cheesy, but like
the knowledge is power kind of thing, you know, Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,
it's true. One last question, do you want to be
my autistic friend? Yes? Yes, you can show me all
(31:18):
the things in It would actually be a great honor
and a pleasure of mine if you came here. Thank
you so much, Pips really appreciate it. Oh thanks for
having me. All right, talk to you soon. Bye. You
can check out my new best friend, Lady Hawk's latest album,
(31:38):
Time Flies on your favorite streaming service, and you can
find her on Instagram and Twitter at lady Hawk for you,
that's Lady Hawk with any This episode was produced by
David Jah and edited by Sophie Crane, mix engineering by
Jake Gorsky. Special thanks to Janina Finn for making this happen.
(32:00):
Thanks to you friend for listening. Token
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