February 8, 2022 • 39 mins
Glory talks to lawyer and educator Anita Hill about her latest book, Believing: Our Thirty-Year Journey to End Gender Violence. In this episode, they converse about the need to believe women when they are brave enough to speak their truth, and about the work Hill does with the Hollywood Commission to help the most vulnerable gender-based violence victims.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:39):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisionous History, Pushitionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus on the show of Page an
Apple podcast or at pushkin dot Fm. Two use the
(01:11):
skills and my energy and time. That's what allows me
to get up every morning. I look at the life
that my mother had and that her mother had, and
realized how much more that I have, and so to
honor her. I just feel that you're on the earth
(01:32):
or a short time, and that you have to use
that time in the service of others. Anita Hill's career
has been in the service of others. She has met
her whole life defending and supporting women that society has overlooked.
(01:58):
Miss Hill taught a generation of women like myself that
speaking your truth is never easy, but it will give
you a sense of peace. When I started the well
read Black Girl, book Club. I saw women like Anita
Hill as inspirations, in part because she drew from her
own life experiences, but also because she knows how important
(02:19):
community is to every single movement. We can't do it alone.
Service can seem daunting, like where do I start? How
do I start? But Anita Hill, she makes it all
feel within reach. She gives us a beginning, and with
(02:41):
her latest book, Believing, she gives us a roadmap. Welcome
to well Read Black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't
even know you needed. I'm your host, Glory Adam. Every
(03:05):
week I'll be talking to writers, thinkers, and makers about
how they found their voice, hone their craft, navigated publishing,
and yeah, showed up in the world. In this episode,
I talked with Anita Hill about her career of service,
who inspires her, and how this current cultural moment can
(03:25):
lead to real change. Today's episode is really special to
me because Alphian conversation with another host in the Pushkin family,
(03:48):
Anita Hill. Since nineteen ninety one, Anita Hill has become
a symbol. She embraced her role as an advocate for
women's rights and gender equality, especially for Black women. She's
a lawyer and an educator and she spent the last
thirty years working on her new book, Believing, and I
(04:11):
get to chat with her about that process and why
that book is so important right now, Professor Hill is
determined to use her platform and her own experiences to
help the most vulnerable victims of gender based violence. We'll
be talking about believing women when they are brave enough
(04:33):
to come forward and speak their truth. By the way, Glory,
I was gonna wear my T shirt, so I can't
remember where I got it, but I did get the
black Girl Read T shirt and I've got to wear it.
(04:55):
But you know how things are. When you get dressed,
you gotta get ready. It's all good. God, I'm so
so excited to meet you again and have you on
the podcast, and congratulations on your amazing book. This is
I have it all a highlighted here. It's so phenomenal.
Thank you. Why did you decide to write this book now?
(05:17):
And what were you hoping your audience and readers would
take away from it? Wow? First of all, I had
been working on the ideas for the book and the
things that were brought out in the pandemic inequalities and
inequities and vulnerabilities including that more people were vulnerable to
(05:39):
violence because they were in their homes. All of those
things kind of came together, and I knew that I
had to write a book. I knew that gender, race
violence was one of those things that we desperately needed
to address. And what I wanted people to take away
was this sense of urgency for addressing the problem. That
(05:59):
it wasn't a problem that just was going to go
away on its own. It wasn't going to go away
because a new generation would come along and resolve it.
It wasn't a problem that was to go away because
of some minor fixes. The problem was much more complex
and deserve complex solutions. Third thing that I wanted people
(06:22):
to understand is that it is a larger problem than
one behavior or a few bad apples out there that
we read about it. It's really an everyday problem as
well as an astonishing series of egregious problems, and so
I wanted people to understand that it was real and
(06:42):
part of their lives or part of the lives of
people who they know and they care about. As I
was reading it, it hit me that every chapter it
feels like a lifetime of material. It feels just like
I'm reading your history and your testimony, and not only
am I processing all of that, but I also see
(07:03):
just like the light that you have for your community
and for the next generation, you know, and like thinking
about who you were in nineteen ninety one, in that
coming full circle and seeing everything that's happened. What does
that feel like? Well, first of all, it's it's feels
(07:23):
probably pretty odd, because, as I explained in the book,
I tend to think of myself as a very private person,
and so with that really richness reflecting on my own
life on me, it's something that I have a hard
time really doing. But I did want for people to
(07:45):
understand in getting their stories and telling them that I
was sharing some of myself too, that people have been
so generous and sharing their feelings that it was just
important for me to share some of my own sense
of who I am and to help them to understand
(08:08):
that what I had experienced, while it's never the same
as what other people experience, was very real in my life,
and that I really understood the consequences and I had
been walking in the steps of people who had been
abused by individuals or systems in one way or the other,
(08:30):
and I was trying to be as generous as people
were to me in my own way and still maintaining
my own sorts of authenticity of who I am. It's
hard though, it is challenging, but you definitely feel your
generosity on the page. That is one thing that really
shines through. And it made me also think of your
(08:51):
first book, Speaking Truths of Power. What was the process
from that book in nineteen ninety seven to this Was
there a big difference in your writing process? Yeah? Well,
you know, I call it a thirty year journey because
there are things that I have come to understand in
the past thirty years that I wanted to add to
(09:15):
this book. The process, to me was not only about
telling about me without letting my ego be too much
a part of the story, but it was also about
how do you integrate and the stories of other people
whose experiences are very different from your own into a narrative,
(09:39):
and how do you address the skepticism that some people
have because oh, they want data, so that you want
to put the data in the book, but you don't
want the stories to get lost. You don't want the feelings,
the emotion, the harm, the pain, and in some cases
(10:01):
the joy to be lost. You know, it's funny. As
a lawyer, we have to tell stories. We tell stories
about our clients cases in the courtroom, we tell stories
when we're teaching. You use hypothetical sometimes and sometimes they're
real stories. And we learned very early on its lawyers
(10:22):
that how we tell the story really can't impact what
people take away from it. In your book, you referenced
your mentor, Judge Higginbotham, who once said to you, I
never talk about race without talking about gender equality and
black women in general. We tend to receive so much
(10:43):
criticism when we try to tell our stories. How do
you say the course not losing sight of talking about
gender equality and race in your work, right? Yes, well,
it's so intuitive to me because you know, identify, of course,
both with my gender and with my race. And in
(11:04):
nineteen ninety one, it was very difficult after the Commis
hearings because I felt so I were being excommunicated from
the black community, and that was very hurtful. So part
of the reason I wanted to write this chapter in particular,
was because I wanted to again put light on some
(11:28):
of the limitations that we have even coming forward to
talk about what happens to us, how many limits are
placed on our ability to talk about our experiences, And
that was the point of view I was coming from.
It's like, what can I say that will make it
easier for people to stop up and to be present
(11:52):
and to be open about the pain that they've experienced.
To look at the problem of violence of any type
simply through one lens means that we're going to lose people,
that we are not going to hear people. And then
(12:14):
so then the question is, how can we as a
community be open to hearing all of those perspectives. How
do we get rid of this idea that when black
women tell about their experience it's harmful to the community,
And how can we get us to the point of
(12:36):
acknowledging that, in fact, our community cannot be strong if
over fifty percent of the community can be targeted and
abused because of how they identify in terms of their
gender and because they are women, or because they are trans.
(12:58):
So those are the things that I was thinking about,
and I don't think that I have all of the answers,
but what I wanted people to take away is that
it is in the entire African American community these best
interest for us to be able to tell about our
pay because that's the only way that we are going
(13:19):
to get to solutions. I agree. One when it comes
to this level of vulnerability and being open to share
the difficulties. I've experienced it in my own life, not
being able to tell my full story and feeling that restriction.
And when you can tell your story, it's such a
(13:40):
liberating feeling. But it's not only you, it's like the
people you encounter. It's your family, it's your friends, your
larger community. It actually shows them that it's possible. And
I feel like that is the one thing your book
Believing does. It just gives us another level of possibility
and it presents the questions to us so we can
talk amongst ourselves. I want to talk to you about
(14:03):
your experience with the me Too movement and when you
first encounter those words me too. When you learned about
Toronto Burke. You write about it in the book, But
what struck you about it? Were you excited and exhilarated?
Did you think like it's about time you know that
these things are meaning knowledge? What was your first reaction
(14:23):
to the me Too movement? Well? I think I was
just astonished because it happened so quickly, and you know,
it was global, and I didn't know about Toronto Burke's
work beforehand, but I do recognize that it was worked
by Toronto and many others that allow that Me Too
(14:47):
movement to happen to afford to become a social media movement,
where as with her it was her personal movement in
trying to help young black and brown girls heal. So
first of all, I thought, you know, this is amazing
because we see how the seed gets planet, but we
(15:08):
don't necessarily know when it's to grow and really become
bigger and involve so many people. And so I was
very excited about the fact that it was happening. But
the other part of me says that I think the media,
in presenting it, initially presented it as the experience of
(15:30):
white women. In fact, it took off in part because
many of the women involved were RB Weinstein victims, and
they were Hollywood stars, and so that became the face
in some instances. And so I knew that we still
(15:52):
had a lot of work to do to expand, to
be inclusive and to understand that what was happening to
bipart women were working women, low income women. It was
just as important and should have just as much air
(16:16):
as an attention as what was happening to the women
in Hollywood. I know you oversee the Hollywood Commission. He
talked a little bit about that. Yes, Well, the Hollywood
Commission came about because a woman named Kathleen Kennedy, who
is a producer, she's a head of Lucas Films, made
(16:36):
an announcement after the Me Too movement surface that Hollywood
needed some kind of commission that would build the standards
for treatment of the abuse that was made evident by
me Too. So she and Anina Shaw, who is an
(16:58):
attorney in Hollywood and a Lambrita caper Klein Biden meed
to join as the chair of this commission. We didn't
know exactly how we were going to do this work,
but we knew that we had to bring in people
from all different sectors in the Hollywood community, because this
was not just an individual problem, or it wasn't even
(17:19):
just a behavioral problem. It was an industry wide problem
that had historical routes add that had been built into
the structures the way people were hired and the way
people got top billing, and so we knew that we
needed just about every segment of the industry, or as
(17:42):
much as we could get them represented on the commission.
And it's long been my theory that if you can
provide equity, and you can provide safety and protections for
the most vulnerable, then the rest of the populations are
going to be taken care of. Yes. And so one
of the things that we have done is to do
a survey of Hollywood workers to know and learn who
(18:05):
are the most vulnerable. There is a lot of work
going on, and I think it is that kind of
work that will ultimately change the behavior and the culture
and the structures that cause people to be harassed and
discriminated against. I'm Glory Adam and this is well read
(18:44):
black Girl. Today I'm speaking with Professor Anita Hill about
her recent book Believing. I want to get back into Believing,
because everything that you're saying is about like resources and
(19:06):
like execution and ways to really take these ideas and
theories and put them into practice. And I want to
talk about the practice of writing for you. Was there
a particular chapter or was there a moment as you
were writing this that you felt a breakthrough or what
moments really made you feel proud of this work. Well,
(19:29):
one of the places where I did it initially was
in the chapter about what's happening in our schools to children?
When I read it at the end, I said to myself,
if we read no other chapter, please read this. If
(19:49):
people are saying, you know, where do we start and
they have to pick one place, let's start with children
because they are the most vulnerable, and they're so vulnerable
to the pain and the harassment and the taunting and
just us your brutality, the physical brutality as well as
(20:11):
the emotional and psychological based on who they are. That's
where we, I think, began to see the most damaging
behavior where it can continue lifelong. And so if you
had to pick one and you had to do away
with all of the others, that would be it, because
that's where the urgency is. And so I guess that
(20:35):
was the chapter I look at and said, this is
why the book was worth writing. I love that, and
I know we share a common love for Paul Murray,
and I think she is so iconic and I want
more folks to know about her work and her poetry
(20:57):
and just her life. Her life is just so outstanding.
And there was a poem that you had referenced, hope
is a song and a weary throat that I wanted
to just read two lines of the last stanza, give
me a song of hope and love in a Brown
Girl's heart to hear it. Can you tell us how
(21:18):
she inspired you and if there are any other writers
like her that give you inspiration or hope or just
a creative surge. Yeah. I mean, she was so bold
about her ideas and her intelligence. She never tried to
hide how smart she was, and she was bold about
(21:43):
making sure that she put their intelligence to good use
in terms of the things she cared about, which was
racial equality and gender equality. But she was also very
bold about who she was at a time when we
(22:03):
really weren't having conversations about people being trans the idea
that she had thought very carefully about her identity and
was certain that she was born in the wrong body
and was certain that she was going to do whatever
(22:26):
she could to change that to correct that, and you know,
tried um to get medical attention to help produce so um.
But I think it was it was because she was
just so certain about what she had to offer the
world and she wanted to be able to do it
(22:49):
as her authentic self. And I take that away from
her story because it's just so impressive if you think
of all of the challenges that she faced and spaced
and and the way she just went after them. I mean,
she she challenged a Philip Randolph, who was like the
(23:10):
deal of the civil rights movement. Before there was a
Martin Luther King, there was a Philip Randolph and she yeah,
oh yeah, she challenged his sexism at a time when
you know, in the March on Washington he had excluded
women from speaking roles. There are so many more Tony
(23:33):
Morrison what I wrote believing as I was putting the
other proposal that she died, and I was on an
airplane and I saw a documentary about her, and it
was so clarifying in terms of who she was. And
the real takeaway from that was intentionality. I knew I
could never match her voice in terms of her writing,
(23:57):
but I did try to channel her spirit in terms
of really honing my own voice to polishing it so
that I could be clear in writing believing. So those
are two people, two writers that really influenced me for
(24:18):
different reasons. Again, there's there's just so much beautiful information
in this book. What was your research process, like, how
did you like, curate and put the book together. Well,
I had a general outline of every chapter, but you know,
as a teacher, we're always researching. So I had stories
(24:40):
that I plugged in. I had research that I pugged in.
But I was constantly to the end, always trying to
verify and confirm and refine the points that I wanted
to make with my own thinking, but with the thinking
of others, and so the process was really iterative. When
(25:05):
did I finished writing the book? I finished writing the
book when I put the last period on. The sentence
was I didn't finish run chapter. I mean I was
always going back to chapters to make sure that I
had it right and to make sure that the chapters
fit together. I didn't write a chapter and then put
(25:27):
that away. I was constantly going back to them and
reconciling things. But I'm also I have to say I
was a completely messy writer, and so I had brought
on someone who helped me edit my mess, cleaned up
my mess, and that was that was definitely a part
(25:49):
of what allowed me to get the book completed, but
the research. There was some research that I had helped
with in the past, but when it came down to
writing it, I did most of the research. And there
is a lot in there. Because the thing that I
wanted to be intentional about was I didn't want anybody
(26:12):
to walk away and say, oh, you know, she's just
talking about herself. These are just her ideas. There's no evidence,
there's no logic, and I wanted it to all come together.
And even though I knew there'll be criticisms, it was
just important that I have all of it. Maybe that's
like the lawyer in me, but I wanted to make
(26:32):
the case as strongly as I could. Yes, I love
the titles of your books, you know, speaking, Troops of Power, Believing.
They just leave such a like a strong impact on
the reader, and you can't forget those titles and the past.
You've said, the title believing comes from your inherent belief
that we deserve better. Our families, our colleagues, our institutions
(26:54):
deserve better. What is better? Can you tell us what
better looks like for you and for our communities. Well,
better is for us to develop a response to the
violence that so many people are experienced that attempts to
prevent it. Right now, what we have is a system
(27:16):
that says, okay, here's how we respond. If you can
get through the gauntlet of reporting, we can change our
culture and our thinking. I believe to eliminate this problem
from happening. Prevention should be our goal, not waiting until
(27:37):
people are harmed to say, let's think about what the
solution will be to their harm. Better would be for
there to be a national commitment to that prevention, where
we actually have a president that says that this is
a public issue that I want to commit my presidency too.
(28:02):
Doesn't mean that you have to exclude everything else, but this,
to me is an issue that deserves the thinking at
the national level. Think about all the ways that our
institutions are implicated, whether our colleges and universities, or our workforces,
or our military, even our Congress in the Supreme Court,
(28:23):
all have been implicated in gender violence issues in ways
that cause people to have less confidence in our systems.
I think that's a public crisis. And then finally, better
would be engaging survivors and victims and solutions, really engaging
them then beyond having them come and tell about their pain,
(28:46):
really trusting them and asking them how do we solve this?
So believing for me was believing that this was the
right issue to take on and that I had a
special place in addressing it. Thank you so much. This
conversation is just so fortifying, and I know everyone listening
(29:07):
will feel just the love and generosity that you've all
for us and the tools you've also offered us. You're
also just so calm. I love like you're just so calm,
and collectively it's a lawyer in you as well. Do
you have like a guiding principle that you live by,
or like something that just gives you, like a mantra
or something. I would love to hear a Professor Hill,
(29:31):
because because I just feel like you just wake up
like assured every day. You just have this energy. Wellow,
you know I you know, I come from this family
of thirteen year oldren and growing up on a farm,
um in Oklahoma. And and and when I'm not when
(29:51):
I'm talking farm, I'm not talking about you know, one
hundred thousand acres in big machinery. You know, I'm talking
about a subsistence farm. UM. I wake up thinking what
a privilege I have to be able to be alive
and to be to talk about and to use the
(30:13):
skills and my energy and time. That's what allows me
to get up every morning. Um. And it comes from
a lot of different sources. I've some of it comes
from the fact that I look at the life that
my mother had and that her mother had and realize
how much more that I have and so to honor her.
(30:34):
And I just feel that you're on the earth for
a short time and that you have to use that
time in the surface of others, um, and use what
(30:54):
has been given to you. And that comes not only
from my parents, but it comes from my siblings and
all of the hope and the faith that they have
in me. And that's that keeps me going. Hello, I'm
(31:27):
Anita Hill. Thank you for listening to well read black Girl.
So we're going to do what we like to call
rapid fire. Oh gosh, I'm so bad with rapid fire up,
but I'm gonna try. They're fun. They're fun. First one
(31:51):
is named three items on your desk A light for
video conference me always there is a padded pencil because
I don't like I don't like to type everything. I
like to write things out. It's part of my process,
and typically a big bottle of water they hydrated. We
(32:14):
let that. Yes, favorite comic book character. Oh, oh gosh,
I don't have a favorite character, but let me tell you.
I was a big fan of Stanley, you know. Oh yeah,
and I and one of my wishes that Stanley would
make a comic book character out of me. Oh it's okay.
(32:34):
So this goes to the next question. It's if you
were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Oh? I
have thought about that, and that is we have superheroes
where they can like look into the future. My superpower
would be every time that I met someone that I
would be able to glimpse their past. Oh that's a
(32:57):
good one. Yeah, because I think if we know their past,
you understand how they behave and why. Oh that's a
good one. Oh. I might have to borrow that superpower
because you know, I encounter some people it's like wow,
and then then you find out and then about them
and you're like, oh, now I get it. Sometimes it's
(33:22):
really late. Okay, that's a really good one. Um, okay,
this is going to take you back to Oklahoma. I
want to know about Little Anita. What was your favorite
game to play at the county fair. Oh well, I
always got you know, looked at those little things where
(33:42):
you you're crank, where you're trying to pick off something,
and that I always felt like this should be you
should be able to do this mechanically. Uh, And I
never could. I never was so but that was my
favorite thing, to try to grab that toy with the
crank in the inn the inside the box, Yeah, with
the box. And it never worked, but it was kind
(34:06):
of fun to always try the last one. So I'm
curious to hear about your childhood nickname. The only person
that ever did use a nickname was my father's I
could said. I was the youngest of thirteen and he
was perhaps the only person I think of who ever
called who called me baby girl. So sweet, that's sweet,
(34:30):
that's sweet. That's the only nickname you need. Yeah, that's
the only thing I needed. Wait, Anita, before you go,
you have a podcast of your own coming out soon, right? Yes?
So well I have a podcast coming and um I
(34:52):
and I know you have your podcasts and you of
a generation where you know that's so familiar to you
From me, I feel a little bit like a dinosaur
and I'm trying to channel. I'm trying to channel people
like you, young people, uh, to to really get the
knack of it. I have a wonderful team. They're they're
(35:12):
working hard on me. You are doing absolutely wonderful. You listen.
I just like I just told you, your voice is
so calming. I think that's like ninety nine percent of it.
Like get having a good voice when you're you know,
sharing the stories or listening or interviewing people. Your voice
is very calming. It's like very soothing. I know when
I listen to podcasts, that's what I'm looking for. Like,
I like, like the richness of someone's voice. I don't
(35:35):
know how my voice. Oh, it's great. That's great. This
is like I think some people were made for it.
But so that's very exciting for me. I'm going to
continue to do um to work with the Hollywood Commission
you've talked about. I continue to teach, and and I'm
very proud, if I must say so, myself of the
(35:57):
book Believing, and I just want to thank you and
all of your readers. We are proud too. It's so
it's so wonderful. I mean, I literally there's so many
highlights in this book. I wish I could like show you.
It's just it's like it's in terms of being a
memoir and a resource in just a history. It's like
living history. And I'm going to tell you that I
(36:19):
don't take any of that for granted. I do feel,
like I said, I'm quite privileged to be where I
am today because I know that there were so many
people that would never have thought that I would be
even known. And in fact, I had one journalist say, oh,
you know, in six months, nobody will remember your name.
(36:41):
They were wrong, they were wrong, So thank you, thank you.
Speaking your truth, especially as a victim of gender based violence,
(37:04):
isn't easy. It's even harder for black women if the
person being accused is a black man. About one in
three women experienced sexual or physical violence in their lifetime.
We need to keep talking to one another in the
black community and to be open to having these tough
conversations in order to be stronger together. Thanks to Anita Hill,
(37:27):
we are a step closer. Speaking with Anita Hill, I'm
reminded of what a big impact she had on my
own life as a young person, seeing her on TV
speaking to the entire country, becoming a heroine for so many.
Like Professor Hill said, these issues are larger than just
her one story. Taking them on is about all of
(37:50):
us read believing our thirty year journey to end gender violence.
It's out now. Well Read black Girl is a production
(38:18):
of Pushkin Industries. It is written and hosted by me
Glory Dam and produced by Scher Vincent and Brittany Brown.
Our associate editor is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda
ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Special thanks
this week to Vicki Merrick. Our executive producers are Mia
(38:42):
Lobell and Leet Hall Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, Jen Goera, John Schnars,
and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find me on Twitter and
Instagram at Well Read black Girl. You can find Pushkin
and all social media platforms at pushkin Pods, and you
(39:05):
can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industry,
consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast
subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you're already a subscriber, make sure
(39:29):
to check out my exclusive Bookmark series on Pushkin Plus.
Starting on February eighteenth. You'll hear extended interviews with book
club members, bookstore owners, and more. And do you get
to hear what's on my mind, What's on my radar,
and of course, what's on my reading list? Each week.
To find more pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts,
(39:53):
or wherever you like to listen
Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:39):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisionous History, Pushitionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus on the show of Page an
Apple podcast or at pushkin dot Fm. Two use the
(01:11):
skills and my energy and time. That's what allows me
to get up every morning. I look at the life
that my mother had and that her mother had, and
realized how much more that I have, and so to
honor her. I just feel that you're on the earth
(01:32):
or a short time, and that you have to use
that time in the service of others. Anita Hill's career
has been in the service of others. She has met
her whole life defending and supporting women that society has overlooked.
(01:58):
Miss Hill taught a generation of women like myself that
speaking your truth is never easy, but it will give
you a sense of peace. When I started the well
read Black Girl, book Club. I saw women like Anita
Hill as inspirations, in part because she drew from her
own life experiences, but also because she knows how important
(02:19):
community is to every single movement. We can't do it alone.
Service can seem daunting, like where do I start? How
do I start? But Anita Hill, she makes it all
feel within reach. She gives us a beginning, and with
(02:41):
her latest book, Believing, she gives us a roadmap. Welcome
to well Read Black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't
even know you needed. I'm your host, Glory Adam. Every
(03:05):
week I'll be talking to writers, thinkers, and makers about
how they found their voice, hone their craft, navigated publishing,
and yeah, showed up in the world. In this episode,
I talked with Anita Hill about her career of service,
who inspires her, and how this current cultural moment can
(03:25):
lead to real change. Today's episode is really special to
me because Alphian conversation with another host in the Pushkin family,
(03:48):
Anita Hill. Since nineteen ninety one, Anita Hill has become
a symbol. She embraced her role as an advocate for
women's rights and gender equality, especially for Black women. She's
a lawyer and an educator and she spent the last
thirty years working on her new book, Believing, and I
(04:11):
get to chat with her about that process and why
that book is so important right now, Professor Hill is
determined to use her platform and her own experiences to
help the most vulnerable victims of gender based violence. We'll
be talking about believing women when they are brave enough
(04:33):
to come forward and speak their truth. By the way, Glory,
I was gonna wear my T shirt, so I can't
remember where I got it, but I did get the
black Girl Read T shirt and I've got to wear it.
(04:55):
But you know how things are. When you get dressed,
you gotta get ready. It's all good. God, I'm so
so excited to meet you again and have you on
the podcast, and congratulations on your amazing book. This is
I have it all a highlighted here. It's so phenomenal.
Thank you. Why did you decide to write this book now?
(05:17):
And what were you hoping your audience and readers would
take away from it? Wow? First of all, I had
been working on the ideas for the book and the
things that were brought out in the pandemic inequalities and
inequities and vulnerabilities including that more people were vulnerable to
(05:39):
violence because they were in their homes. All of those
things kind of came together, and I knew that I
had to write a book. I knew that gender, race
violence was one of those things that we desperately needed
to address. And what I wanted people to take away
was this sense of urgency for addressing the problem. That
(05:59):
it wasn't a problem that just was going to go
away on its own. It wasn't going to go away
because a new generation would come along and resolve it.
It wasn't a problem that was to go away because
of some minor fixes. The problem was much more complex
and deserve complex solutions. Third thing that I wanted people
(06:22):
to understand is that it is a larger problem than
one behavior or a few bad apples out there that
we read about it. It's really an everyday problem as
well as an astonishing series of egregious problems, and so
I wanted people to understand that it was real and
(06:42):
part of their lives or part of the lives of
people who they know and they care about. As I
was reading it, it hit me that every chapter it
feels like a lifetime of material. It feels just like
I'm reading your history and your testimony, and not only
am I processing all of that, but I also see
(07:03):
just like the light that you have for your community
and for the next generation, you know, and like thinking
about who you were in nineteen ninety one, in that
coming full circle and seeing everything that's happened. What does
that feel like? Well, first of all, it's it's feels
(07:23):
probably pretty odd, because, as I explained in the book,
I tend to think of myself as a very private person,
and so with that really richness reflecting on my own
life on me, it's something that I have a hard
time really doing. But I did want for people to
(07:45):
understand in getting their stories and telling them that I
was sharing some of myself too, that people have been
so generous and sharing their feelings that it was just
important for me to share some of my own sense
of who I am and to help them to understand
(08:08):
that what I had experienced, while it's never the same
as what other people experience, was very real in my life,
and that I really understood the consequences and I had
been walking in the steps of people who had been
abused by individuals or systems in one way or the other,
(08:30):
and I was trying to be as generous as people
were to me in my own way and still maintaining
my own sorts of authenticity of who I am. It's
hard though, it is challenging, but you definitely feel your
generosity on the page. That is one thing that really
shines through. And it made me also think of your
(08:51):
first book, Speaking Truths of Power. What was the process
from that book in nineteen ninety seven to this Was
there a big difference in your writing process? Yeah? Well,
you know, I call it a thirty year journey because
there are things that I have come to understand in
the past thirty years that I wanted to add to
(09:15):
this book. The process, to me was not only about
telling about me without letting my ego be too much
a part of the story, but it was also about
how do you integrate and the stories of other people
whose experiences are very different from your own into a narrative,
(09:39):
and how do you address the skepticism that some people
have because oh, they want data, so that you want
to put the data in the book, but you don't
want the stories to get lost. You don't want the feelings,
the emotion, the harm, the pain, and in some cases
(10:01):
the joy to be lost. You know, it's funny. As
a lawyer, we have to tell stories. We tell stories
about our clients cases in the courtroom, we tell stories
when we're teaching. You use hypothetical sometimes and sometimes they're
real stories. And we learned very early on its lawyers
(10:22):
that how we tell the story really can't impact what
people take away from it. In your book, you referenced
your mentor, Judge Higginbotham, who once said to you, I
never talk about race without talking about gender equality and
black women in general. We tend to receive so much
(10:43):
criticism when we try to tell our stories. How do
you say the course not losing sight of talking about
gender equality and race in your work, right? Yes, well,
it's so intuitive to me because you know, identify, of course,
both with my gender and with my race. And in
(11:04):
nineteen ninety one, it was very difficult after the Commis
hearings because I felt so I were being excommunicated from
the black community, and that was very hurtful. So part
of the reason I wanted to write this chapter in particular,
was because I wanted to again put light on some
(11:28):
of the limitations that we have even coming forward to
talk about what happens to us, how many limits are
placed on our ability to talk about our experiences, And
that was the point of view I was coming from.
It's like, what can I say that will make it
easier for people to stop up and to be present
(11:52):
and to be open about the pain that they've experienced.
To look at the problem of violence of any type
simply through one lens means that we're going to lose people,
that we are not going to hear people. And then
(12:14):
so then the question is, how can we as a
community be open to hearing all of those perspectives. How
do we get rid of this idea that when black
women tell about their experience it's harmful to the community,
And how can we get us to the point of
(12:36):
acknowledging that, in fact, our community cannot be strong if
over fifty percent of the community can be targeted and
abused because of how they identify in terms of their
gender and because they are women, or because they are trans.
(12:58):
So those are the things that I was thinking about,
and I don't think that I have all of the answers,
but what I wanted people to take away is that
it is in the entire African American community these best
interest for us to be able to tell about our
pay because that's the only way that we are going
(13:19):
to get to solutions. I agree. One when it comes
to this level of vulnerability and being open to share
the difficulties. I've experienced it in my own life, not
being able to tell my full story and feeling that restriction.
And when you can tell your story, it's such a
(13:40):
liberating feeling. But it's not only you, it's like the
people you encounter. It's your family, it's your friends, your
larger community. It actually shows them that it's possible. And
I feel like that is the one thing your book
Believing does. It just gives us another level of possibility
and it presents the questions to us so we can
talk amongst ourselves. I want to talk to you about
(14:03):
your experience with the me Too movement and when you
first encounter those words me too. When you learned about
Toronto Burke. You write about it in the book, But
what struck you about it? Were you excited and exhilarated?
Did you think like it's about time you know that
these things are meaning knowledge? What was your first reaction
(14:23):
to the me Too movement? Well? I think I was
just astonished because it happened so quickly, and you know,
it was global, and I didn't know about Toronto Burke's
work beforehand, but I do recognize that it was worked
by Toronto and many others that allow that Me Too
(14:47):
movement to happen to afford to become a social media movement,
where as with her it was her personal movement in
trying to help young black and brown girls heal. So
first of all, I thought, you know, this is amazing
because we see how the seed gets planet, but we
(15:08):
don't necessarily know when it's to grow and really become
bigger and involve so many people. And so I was
very excited about the fact that it was happening. But
the other part of me says that I think the media,
in presenting it, initially presented it as the experience of
(15:30):
white women. In fact, it took off in part because
many of the women involved were RB Weinstein victims, and
they were Hollywood stars, and so that became the face
in some instances. And so I knew that we still
(15:52):
had a lot of work to do to expand, to
be inclusive and to understand that what was happening to
bipart women were working women, low income women. It was
just as important and should have just as much air
(16:16):
as an attention as what was happening to the women
in Hollywood. I know you oversee the Hollywood Commission. He
talked a little bit about that. Yes, Well, the Hollywood
Commission came about because a woman named Kathleen Kennedy, who
is a producer, she's a head of Lucas Films, made
(16:36):
an announcement after the Me Too movement surface that Hollywood
needed some kind of commission that would build the standards
for treatment of the abuse that was made evident by
me Too. So she and Anina Shaw, who is an
(16:58):
attorney in Hollywood and a Lambrita caper Klein Biden meed
to join as the chair of this commission. We didn't
know exactly how we were going to do this work,
but we knew that we had to bring in people
from all different sectors in the Hollywood community, because this
was not just an individual problem, or it wasn't even
(17:19):
just a behavioral problem. It was an industry wide problem
that had historical routes add that had been built into
the structures the way people were hired and the way
people got top billing, and so we knew that we
needed just about every segment of the industry, or as
(17:42):
much as we could get them represented on the commission.
And it's long been my theory that if you can
provide equity, and you can provide safety and protections for
the most vulnerable, then the rest of the populations are
going to be taken care of. Yes. And so one
of the things that we have done is to do
a survey of Hollywood workers to know and learn who
(18:05):
are the most vulnerable. There is a lot of work
going on, and I think it is that kind of
work that will ultimately change the behavior and the culture
and the structures that cause people to be harassed and
discriminated against. I'm Glory Adam and this is well read
(18:44):
black Girl. Today I'm speaking with Professor Anita Hill about
her recent book Believing. I want to get back into Believing,
because everything that you're saying is about like resources and
(19:06):
like execution and ways to really take these ideas and
theories and put them into practice. And I want to
talk about the practice of writing for you. Was there
a particular chapter or was there a moment as you
were writing this that you felt a breakthrough or what
moments really made you feel proud of this work. Well,
(19:29):
one of the places where I did it initially was
in the chapter about what's happening in our schools to children?
When I read it at the end, I said to myself,
if we read no other chapter, please read this. If
(19:49):
people are saying, you know, where do we start and
they have to pick one place, let's start with children
because they are the most vulnerable, and they're so vulnerable
to the pain and the harassment and the taunting and
just us your brutality, the physical brutality as well as
(20:11):
the emotional and psychological based on who they are. That's
where we, I think, began to see the most damaging
behavior where it can continue lifelong. And so if you
had to pick one and you had to do away
with all of the others, that would be it, because
that's where the urgency is. And so I guess that
(20:35):
was the chapter I look at and said, this is
why the book was worth writing. I love that, and
I know we share a common love for Paul Murray,
and I think she is so iconic and I want
more folks to know about her work and her poetry
(20:57):
and just her life. Her life is just so outstanding.
And there was a poem that you had referenced, hope
is a song and a weary throat that I wanted
to just read two lines of the last stanza, give
me a song of hope and love in a Brown
Girl's heart to hear it. Can you tell us how
(21:18):
she inspired you and if there are any other writers
like her that give you inspiration or hope or just
a creative surge. Yeah. I mean, she was so bold
about her ideas and her intelligence. She never tried to
hide how smart she was, and she was bold about
(21:43):
making sure that she put their intelligence to good use
in terms of the things she cared about, which was
racial equality and gender equality. But she was also very
bold about who she was at a time when we
(22:03):
really weren't having conversations about people being trans the idea
that she had thought very carefully about her identity and
was certain that she was born in the wrong body
and was certain that she was going to do whatever
(22:26):
she could to change that to correct that, and you know,
tried um to get medical attention to help produce so um.
But I think it was it was because she was
just so certain about what she had to offer the
world and she wanted to be able to do it
(22:49):
as her authentic self. And I take that away from
her story because it's just so impressive if you think
of all of the challenges that she faced and spaced
and and the way she just went after them. I mean,
she she challenged a Philip Randolph, who was like the
(23:10):
deal of the civil rights movement. Before there was a
Martin Luther King, there was a Philip Randolph and she yeah,
oh yeah, she challenged his sexism at a time when
you know, in the March on Washington he had excluded
women from speaking roles. There are so many more Tony
(23:33):
Morrison what I wrote believing as I was putting the
other proposal that she died, and I was on an
airplane and I saw a documentary about her, and it
was so clarifying in terms of who she was. And
the real takeaway from that was intentionality. I knew I
could never match her voice in terms of her writing,
(23:57):
but I did try to channel her spirit in terms
of really honing my own voice to polishing it so
that I could be clear in writing believing. So those
are two people, two writers that really influenced me for
(24:18):
different reasons. Again, there's there's just so much beautiful information
in this book. What was your research process, like, how
did you like, curate and put the book together. Well,
I had a general outline of every chapter, but you know,
as a teacher, we're always researching. So I had stories
(24:40):
that I plugged in. I had research that I pugged in.
But I was constantly to the end, always trying to
verify and confirm and refine the points that I wanted
to make with my own thinking, but with the thinking
of others, and so the process was really iterative. When
(25:05):
did I finished writing the book? I finished writing the
book when I put the last period on. The sentence
was I didn't finish run chapter. I mean I was
always going back to chapters to make sure that I
had it right and to make sure that the chapters
fit together. I didn't write a chapter and then put
(25:27):
that away. I was constantly going back to them and
reconciling things. But I'm also I have to say I
was a completely messy writer, and so I had brought
on someone who helped me edit my mess, cleaned up
my mess, and that was that was definitely a part
(25:49):
of what allowed me to get the book completed, but
the research. There was some research that I had helped
with in the past, but when it came down to
writing it, I did most of the research. And there
is a lot in there. Because the thing that I
wanted to be intentional about was I didn't want anybody
(26:12):
to walk away and say, oh, you know, she's just
talking about herself. These are just her ideas. There's no evidence,
there's no logic, and I wanted it to all come together.
And even though I knew there'll be criticisms, it was
just important that I have all of it. Maybe that's
like the lawyer in me, but I wanted to make
(26:32):
the case as strongly as I could. Yes, I love
the titles of your books, you know, speaking, Troops of Power, Believing.
They just leave such a like a strong impact on
the reader, and you can't forget those titles and the past.
You've said, the title believing comes from your inherent belief
that we deserve better. Our families, our colleagues, our institutions
(26:54):
deserve better. What is better? Can you tell us what
better looks like for you and for our communities. Well,
better is for us to develop a response to the
violence that so many people are experienced that attempts to
prevent it. Right now, what we have is a system
(27:16):
that says, okay, here's how we respond. If you can
get through the gauntlet of reporting, we can change our
culture and our thinking. I believe to eliminate this problem
from happening. Prevention should be our goal, not waiting until
(27:37):
people are harmed to say, let's think about what the
solution will be to their harm. Better would be for
there to be a national commitment to that prevention, where
we actually have a president that says that this is
a public issue that I want to commit my presidency too.
(28:02):
Doesn't mean that you have to exclude everything else, but this,
to me is an issue that deserves the thinking at
the national level. Think about all the ways that our
institutions are implicated, whether our colleges and universities, or our workforces,
or our military, even our Congress in the Supreme Court,
(28:23):
all have been implicated in gender violence issues in ways
that cause people to have less confidence in our systems.
I think that's a public crisis. And then finally, better
would be engaging survivors and victims and solutions, really engaging
them then beyond having them come and tell about their pain,
(28:46):
really trusting them and asking them how do we solve this?
So believing for me was believing that this was the
right issue to take on and that I had a
special place in addressing it. Thank you so much. This
conversation is just so fortifying, and I know everyone listening
(29:07):
will feel just the love and generosity that you've all
for us and the tools you've also offered us. You're
also just so calm. I love like you're just so calm,
and collectively it's a lawyer in you as well. Do
you have like a guiding principle that you live by,
or like something that just gives you, like a mantra
or something. I would love to hear a Professor Hill,
(29:31):
because because I just feel like you just wake up
like assured every day. You just have this energy. Wellow,
you know I you know, I come from this family
of thirteen year oldren and growing up on a farm,
um in Oklahoma. And and and when I'm not when
(29:51):
I'm talking farm, I'm not talking about you know, one
hundred thousand acres in big machinery. You know, I'm talking
about a subsistence farm. UM. I wake up thinking what
a privilege I have to be able to be alive
and to be to talk about and to use the
(30:13):
skills and my energy and time. That's what allows me
to get up every morning. Um. And it comes from
a lot of different sources. I've some of it comes
from the fact that I look at the life that
my mother had and that her mother had and realize
how much more that I have and so to honor her.
(30:34):
And I just feel that you're on the earth for
a short time and that you have to use that
time in the surface of others, um, and use what
(30:54):
has been given to you. And that comes not only
from my parents, but it comes from my siblings and
all of the hope and the faith that they have
in me. And that's that keeps me going. Hello, I'm
(31:27):
Anita Hill. Thank you for listening to well read black Girl.
So we're going to do what we like to call
rapid fire. Oh gosh, I'm so bad with rapid fire up,
but I'm gonna try. They're fun. They're fun. First one
(31:51):
is named three items on your desk A light for
video conference me always there is a padded pencil because
I don't like I don't like to type everything. I
like to write things out. It's part of my process,
and typically a big bottle of water they hydrated. We
(32:14):
let that. Yes, favorite comic book character. Oh, oh gosh,
I don't have a favorite character, but let me tell you.
I was a big fan of Stanley, you know. Oh yeah,
and I and one of my wishes that Stanley would
make a comic book character out of me. Oh it's okay.
(32:34):
So this goes to the next question. It's if you
were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Oh? I
have thought about that, and that is we have superheroes
where they can like look into the future. My superpower
would be every time that I met someone that I
would be able to glimpse their past. Oh that's a
(32:57):
good one. Yeah, because I think if we know their past,
you understand how they behave and why. Oh that's a
good one. Oh. I might have to borrow that superpower
because you know, I encounter some people it's like wow,
and then then you find out and then about them
and you're like, oh, now I get it. Sometimes it's
(33:22):
really late. Okay, that's a really good one. Um, okay,
this is going to take you back to Oklahoma. I
want to know about Little Anita. What was your favorite
game to play at the county fair. Oh well, I
always got you know, looked at those little things where
(33:42):
you you're crank, where you're trying to pick off something,
and that I always felt like this should be you
should be able to do this mechanically. Uh, And I
never could. I never was so but that was my
favorite thing, to try to grab that toy with the
crank in the inn the inside the box, Yeah, with
the box. And it never worked, but it was kind
(34:06):
of fun to always try the last one. So I'm
curious to hear about your childhood nickname. The only person
that ever did use a nickname was my father's I
could said. I was the youngest of thirteen and he
was perhaps the only person I think of who ever
called who called me baby girl. So sweet, that's sweet,
(34:30):
that's sweet. That's the only nickname you need. Yeah, that's
the only thing I needed. Wait, Anita, before you go,
you have a podcast of your own coming out soon, right? Yes?
So well I have a podcast coming and um I
(34:52):
and I know you have your podcasts and you of
a generation where you know that's so familiar to you
From me, I feel a little bit like a dinosaur
and I'm trying to channel. I'm trying to channel people
like you, young people, uh, to to really get the
knack of it. I have a wonderful team. They're they're
(35:12):
working hard on me. You are doing absolutely wonderful. You listen.
I just like I just told you, your voice is
so calming. I think that's like ninety nine percent of it.
Like get having a good voice when you're you know,
sharing the stories or listening or interviewing people. Your voice
is very calming. It's like very soothing. I know when
I listen to podcasts, that's what I'm looking for. Like,
I like, like the richness of someone's voice. I don't
(35:35):
know how my voice. Oh, it's great. That's great. This
is like I think some people were made for it.
But so that's very exciting for me. I'm going to
continue to do um to work with the Hollywood Commission
you've talked about. I continue to teach, and and I'm
very proud, if I must say so, myself of the
(35:57):
book Believing, and I just want to thank you and
all of your readers. We are proud too. It's so
it's so wonderful. I mean, I literally there's so many
highlights in this book. I wish I could like show you.
It's just it's like it's in terms of being a
memoir and a resource in just a history. It's like
living history. And I'm going to tell you that I
(36:19):
don't take any of that for granted. I do feel,
like I said, I'm quite privileged to be where I
am today because I know that there were so many
people that would never have thought that I would be
even known. And in fact, I had one journalist say, oh,
you know, in six months, nobody will remember your name.
(36:41):
They were wrong, they were wrong, So thank you, thank you.
Speaking your truth, especially as a victim of gender based violence,
(37:04):
isn't easy. It's even harder for black women if the
person being accused is a black man. About one in
three women experienced sexual or physical violence in their lifetime.
We need to keep talking to one another in the
black community and to be open to having these tough
conversations in order to be stronger together. Thanks to Anita Hill,
(37:27):
we are a step closer. Speaking with Anita Hill, I'm
reminded of what a big impact she had on my
own life as a young person, seeing her on TV
speaking to the entire country, becoming a heroine for so many.
Like Professor Hill said, these issues are larger than just
her one story. Taking them on is about all of
(37:50):
us read believing our thirty year journey to end gender violence.
It's out now. Well Read black Girl is a production
(38:18):
of Pushkin Industries. It is written and hosted by me
Glory Dam and produced by Scher Vincent and Brittany Brown.
Our associate editor is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda
ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Special thanks
this week to Vicki Merrick. Our executive producers are Mia
(38:42):
Lobell and Leet Hall Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, Jen Goera, John Schnars,
and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find me on Twitter and
Instagram at Well Read black Girl. You can find Pushkin
and all social media platforms at pushkin Pods, and you
(39:05):
can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industry,
consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast
subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you're already a subscriber, make sure
(39:29):
to check out my exclusive Bookmark series on Pushkin Plus.
Starting on February eighteenth. You'll hear extended interviews with book
club members, bookstore owners, and more. And do you get
to hear what's on my mind, What's on my radar,
and of course, what's on my reading list? Each week.
To find more pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts,
(39:53):
or wherever you like to listen
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!