April 19, 2022 • 30 mins
Glory talks to poet and author Elizabeth Acevedo about her books Clap When You Land and The Poet X. They discuss Elizabeth’s research process for writing poetry versus writing novels in verse. In this episode, they also talk about how music influenced Elizabeth’s early poetry, and how hip hop gave her the tools to talk about her neighborhood.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:38):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisionist History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple
Podcasts or at pushkin dot m. Elizabeth Asaveado is a
(01:08):
poet and author who has crafted some of the most
insightful young adult poetry in recent years. The Dominican American
writer got her start in the slam poetry circuit as
a teenager. Her debut novel The Poet X, about a
fifteen year old girl in Harlem, one of the twenty
eighteen National Book Award in Young People's Literature. Elizabeth writes
(01:28):
novel in verse a single story over several poems. I
consider a poem something that is self contained that talks
about or explores a human experience in the least amount
of words possible, But a novel in verse may only
have maybe ten poems Her recent book, Clap with You
Land follows two teenage girls who learned they share the
(01:49):
same father after he dies in a plane crash. It
was interesting to feel like an outsider who had to
be really thoughtful and gentle and open to an experience
different than my own, even though I do know dr
but I've treated it with the respect as if I
were writing, and if miss Young as my own. Elizabeth
(02:09):
is a former eighth great teacher who is familiar with
the language of young people. This makes it easier for
her to write for and like them. It's just one
of the many reasons she's a success. Welcome to Well
(02:37):
Read Black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't even know
you needed. I'm your host, Glory Adam. Every week I
talked to writers and thinkers about their craft and how
their work shows up in the world. In this episode,
I speak with Elizabeth Ascevedo about how her music influenced
her poetry, why hip hop gave her the tools to
(02:58):
talk about her neighborhood and have her style puts her
in a league of her own. Elizabeth, Welcome to the
wild Ride Black Girl Podcast. I'm so excited too having here.
Glaurie I'm so happed to be here with you. You
(03:20):
know what. Let's start from the beginning. How did poetry
show up in your childhood? When poetry initially showed up
for me, I didn't know to call it poetry. My
grandfather had a third great education. He was a person
who would walk me to and from school every single day,
and he had these riddles that he had memorized. It
was lyrical, it was rhyme. It had the turns that
(03:44):
we are used to in a sonnet in terms of
a volta like. There were these arcs and his riddles,
and that was one of the earliest moments where poetry
was recited to me. My mother loves telling stories, and
so she was constantly telling me stories about when she
was younger and she used to ride horses. And so
for me, poetry arrived as a love of language, as
(04:05):
a love of what language allowed me to access, how
it connected me to a home I didn't always feel
a connection to. And I began writing rap initially, right
to me, that was where I wanted to go. I
wanted to be a hip hop star. I was waiting
for j Z to discover me right and so all
of that was poetry, but I just wasn't calling it
(04:25):
that yet. I love that well. I know you said
in the past that rappers were the original workshop leaders.
You know, so when you look at your favorite rappers musicians,
how have they kind of set an example for you?
And what were you trying to emulate? I think I
was trying to emulate how do I talk about my neighborhood.
How do I talk about folks in ways that feel
(04:47):
centered in that area? Right? And I think hip hop
never felt separate from the people was talking about. I'm
really hard on myself. I'm a little bit of a
perfectionist when it comes to my work. I want to
hold onto a book for a long time and make
sure it's perfect, that everyone who reads it is gonna
love it. And I think watching how I love certain
artists and maybe didn't love that last album or maybe
(05:08):
wasn't moved by quote unquote this particular You're the era
gives me a lot of freedom to realize, like, people
create and sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't. But
also to be an artist in your life for decades
means that you're going to put some stuff out that
isn't the perfection you want it to be, but it's
still moving your legacy or what you are leaving as
(05:32):
your body of work, right right, that's such a good point,
especially as your profile grows. You know, you are a
National Book Award winner, so we got like millions of
people reading your book without question. But there's something to
be said about separating yourself from the work, so you
can just be open to the critique and you can
be open to this idea that not everyone's going to
(05:54):
receive it the way you thought it would be received,
and that's okay, Yeah, for sure. I remember being young
and I loved Eve, and I loved Eve's first album,
and then she was talking about her sophomore album and
she was like, I'm so afraid of the sophomore slump. Like,
you know, you come out with something great and then
you just want to match that first thing. You don't
allow a second, third, fourth project to have its own life,
(06:16):
you know. I'm also thinking about this idea of space,
like what does it mean for you to take up
space where you need to and not just in the
physical form like I've seen you perform. But I just
remember being so captured by your voice and just completely
pulled in you have such a presence about you when
you're performing, and that presence definitely shows up on the
(06:39):
page as well. So can you talk to us about
how you cultivated that, how you learn to just be
in your body and understand your agency? You know? I
laugh a little bit because I'm like, if you only
knew what the struggles I've been having with being in
my body. Right, But I feel that there are times
(06:59):
on stage that I've felt the most me and the
best version of me. That there were moments when it
was quiet and I'm just holding this stage for ten
to fifteen minutes, you know. Sometimes I'm thirty, sometimes forty five.
When I was doing a full one woman show that
was very free. I have not always had a platform
where I could just talk for however long and people
(07:22):
just listen. And so I think that part of the
learning is like, how do I hold a room? How
do I ensure that I'm connecting, that I'm creating pauses?
I find that my books, I ask those same questions.
How do I ensure that my audience feels cared for?
What are the little things I can put in here
to let folks know, like, no, I'm writing to you right,
(07:42):
this is for you. And I think when I was
on stage it was that same thing, looking into an
audience and finding the people to make eye contact with
and the one person in the back who's nodding into everything,
and just like we are creating this together. And for me,
the books feel that way, right, Like what people bring
to a story affects their read I don't know if
you've had this glory where you read something you're like, oh,
(08:03):
this is not for me, right, you stop, you don't finish,
and then two years later you pick it up and
you're like, what was I thinking? Right? The book didn't change,
but you change your ability to be in that space,
your ability to lend your heart and your memories to
a book so that it opens up for you. And
maybe practicing that on stage has helped me be able
to do that with my books, Like I'm going to
(08:23):
give as much as I can so that when you
bring your full self, we're making something together. Right, that's
the story making. Oh that's so beautiful to just the
piggyback off of that. Can you talk about the first
poem that he wrote that made you understand that you
were going to be a poet? Yeah, I was really
young I was maybe eight or nine, and I remember
writing about dolphins. Dolphins don't kill dolphins, and birds don't
(08:46):
kill birds, but people kill people and that really hurts.
That's like probably one of the youngest, like just little
nine year old poem. Right, that's amazing, girl, girl, you
were deep listen and dolphins are actually really violent. Baby
listens was wishfully thanking, but it was always social. It
was always like social critique or why are we this way?
(09:09):
Like I just had so many questions and the writing
was where I could find those answers or at least
chronicle my wanderings. Right, Oh, I love that. I want
to talk about just like I'm thinking about modeling and
how you do that for so many people. And as
I was doing the rereading of your book, I noticed
the dedication and I was so impressed with your kindness
(09:32):
to dedicate it to Catherine and to your former students
at buck Lodge. Can you talk about that, why you
dedicated it to them and what it means for them
to show up in your story. Yeah. I was an
eighth grade English teacher before the poetics ever came out,
before I even had gone to Grand School and started
writing for touring and writing for publication, and teaching eighth
(09:55):
grade is like the cusp of when young people are
really going from being children to now having very new
expectations of young adulthood and hormones and feelings, and it's
really hard to teach that a rat. So I had
this student, Katherine Blane's, who I absolutely adored. She was
just the funniest, wittiest kid, and she was resistant to
(10:17):
silent reading time. And I remember being like, like, what
can I get you? I had to buy all the
like super dope fun books that I could get my
hands on it. She's just like, you know, not only
these books are about us. For her, it was I'm
a solidoring young woman. I need something else. And so
that felt like the baton that I needed at the time,
like why not you? And I had to start questioning,
why not me? I'm a writer, but what do I
(10:37):
think I don't have to offer literature that I don't
want to create a project specifically for these young people
that I know are yearning for this. And so the
dedication was for Catherine, it was for my students. I
think it was for my former self. But also that
dedication is a reflection of a dedication that Angela Johnson
in her book the first part last wrote for me,
(10:59):
where she wrote this is dedicated to Elizabel Savedo and
all the students at the Mahigh School for Children, because
I had written her a letter about her book Heaven,
and I was like, I love this book, but I
want to know more about this secondary character, these long
notes on what I thought she should right, and she
never wrote me back. But two years later this book
came out and the dedication was to me, And so
it felt like with my book when it comes out,
(11:21):
I want to pass on the young person who encouraged
me to go on the path of this project. So
it felt like in homage to Angela Johnson, but also
like who knows who else might be inspired by this
kind of dedication that is just such a wonderful story
that is so endearing and beautiful. I want to talk
about the young people because I'm just curious to hear
(11:43):
what you feel like they've taught you, Like were you
like listening to them in the classroom, Like how do
you why are you able to cultivate that? Because in
every one of your books, a clap when you land
the poet acts it sounds so authentic, and it does
feel like you have this kinship with young people where
you can get their voices, because sometimes you read by
a Bucks and you're like, oh, that's not how young people.
(12:06):
It really sounds like you understand who they are. I
try to really hone my ear in general, just when
I'm with folks, when I'm in community, I'm trying to
listen for cadences, how particular people bump words up against
each other. I was lucky to have been an HBRA
teacher who had a lot of writing projects assigned to
my students, so I got a sense of what they
(12:27):
would reveal, what they wouldn't reveal, what kinds of prompts
inspired them. I honestly would probably give the most credit
to having been the coach for the DCUTH Slam team.
I worked with young poets, which is a little bit
different because they were so motivated. They were engaging with
language constantly, and I got to hear how they were
advancing language, how they were moving it into a different step.
(12:49):
So I go to a lot of events where I'm
not the center. I'm sitting in the back somewhere and
I'm just listening to how young people expressed themselves, and
I have a lot of respect. I think maybe because
I was a young person who I've been mentored and
I remember vividly what mentors did or said that made
me feel valued. But I'm constantly listening After the break
More with the List with Asvedo on her writing and
(13:12):
research process for her latest book, Clap When You Land.
I'm Glory Adam and you're listening to well read Black
Girl today. I'm joined by Elizabeth Asvedo, poet and best
(13:33):
selling author of the poet X and Clap When You Land.
Elizabeth wrote both books as a novel inverse. This is
where a narrative is written using poetry instead of prose.
I really want to look at your process, right, So
with a novel in verse, like where do you begin?
(13:53):
Like sometimes when I'm reading poetry, it feels very interior,
it feels very abstract. At times, it can go anywhere
and there's so much metaphor. But when you're actually structuring
novel inverse, there's a story like you need to, like,
you know, get from a beginning to end in a
very precise way. So how do you construct your novels
so they can have that rhythm? And that structure. But
(14:16):
also I have the very delicate balance of poetry. I
consider a poem something that is self contained, that talks
about or explores a human experience in the least amount
of words possible. But the hardest thing with a novel
and versus that you're juggling narrative. Is there a plot?
Is there a story? Are my characters clear and language?
Then then this third piece that we just talked about,
(14:37):
which is and does it sound like a young person's voice?
Is this the kind of poetry a young person could write?
And that becomes hard. I have to separate the poet self,
who wants to be impressive, from the novelist self, who
wants to be expressive, and just like that meld of well,
it has to be a little bit of both. I
have to control it enough that a reader knows what
(14:57):
she's doing. And I feel safe in these pages because
I'm following someone who is tightly holding the story together.
For the most part, pieces I like to think of
them as hinges, So I create these moments that feel
really beautiful, like we're getting the character's heart, and then
I'm just connecting narrative to those pieces, and I'm letting
it like hinge between the next section and the next section.
(15:20):
But I think that I'm very mindful of the language
and the spacing and the line breaks because of the
ways that it creates breath on the page, momentum on
the page. It gives insight into the speaker or the
characters mindset. If there's no punctuation in a piece, like
you're moving through it a little bit faster. So there's
a lot of craft that I use that is from
(15:41):
having been a poet and learning what those tools are
that I bring here. I want to talk about your
relationship with Hair. I know your new book is coming
out Inheritance, and he decided to stop erform that poem. Yes, yes,
Why why did you decide to do that? And what
was the motivation? What are you trying to really express
(16:04):
to the reader? Yeah, I mean so the hair poem
is it's very much about just the reclamation of self love.
And I loved doing that poem for a long time,
and then I felt like I was getting cornered into oh,
she does the hair poem versus all the other kind
of writing I put into the world, or the other
poems that I have to perform. That poem outgrewmy in
(16:26):
a way that was difficult to catch up too, and
felt like it was restraining me a little bit, like
this is going to be the defining thing A poem
I wrote in two thousand and nine as a senior
in college, will be the last piece of literature that
like anyone cares about, right, And so I think I
slowly started moving away from that. We've had another natural
hair move in the last decade that felt like, all right,
the poem work, people are listening. You know, my job
(16:48):
here is done. It was an evolution of like, I
don't want to be the only one carrying this piece anymore.
But also that poem was written particularly and with my
mom as the person that a lot of those feelings
were targeted as. And as I've grown older, I realized
that some of my hesitation with that poem is that
who I am differs from the person who wrote it,
(17:10):
and so being able to revise it as a book,
I wanted it to be one that could be shared.
So as opposed to this is like my war cry
to my mother, I'm gonna love myself regardless of what
you think I should do with my hair. I wanted
it to be more of a praise poem to all
of us who hold our natural cells, including the mothers
(17:31):
who have protected us, you know, in terms of loving ourselves,
and the aunties and the uncles who this day and
age young people are growing up with. Right, we were
talking about music earlier. Do you feel like your work
has a very distinct rhythm? It's like sometimes I read
something like, okay, like this, Elizabeth Strait. You know what
I'm saying, Like, like, is that something that you feel
(17:52):
very intentional about where you want there to be a
rhythm or a kid and see your work every time
someone encounters it. Yeah, I mean I think that for sure.
Music in all of my work is a big part
of it. Even with the Fire on High Money Santiago story,
which is told in prose. I remember one of the
biggest challenges I had was it doesn't feel like the
language is doing enough, it doesn't feel beautiful enough. And
(18:13):
so going through every single chapter and making sure that
the chapter endings were really thoughtful and all of them
end on an image and all of them end internally
right to give it that interiority that you could get
from a poem. I say, with trying to capture the
imagery and ways that still lean into my poetic self,
because I think that that is where my voice is
(18:35):
most toned. It is in the music, in the words
I move against each other, and the images that most
people may not think of, And so I know that
those are my strengths and it's what I lean on, right,
And so that is style to some extent. But in
terms of my voice, yeah, I hope anyone could pick
up my work and be able to tell, like the
Cadence here is Elizabeth Aasavedo. Almost all my books start
(18:56):
with names, like the first section outright is just like,
what's the character's name? With their relationships of their name,
how does this reflect how they think about their parents
or their homes? And then sometimes there are poems that
end up before that are pieces that end up after,
But the name poem is often where I'm grounding myself
in the character and I spring from there. And you'll
find every single one of my books has some type
(19:16):
of meditation on needs. Yes, I did notice that when
you wrote a cop when you land like, were you
taking memories or experiences you had in the dr like
were you clapping when the plane landed? How did you
craft that narrative Clap when you land was a wild
ass story, right, because I've had this idea in my
(19:36):
head for over a decade about this plane crash that
happened when I was really young, and like the ways
that my community responded to it. So I knew that.
And what a lot of folks on know was that
initially that story, which has two different point of views,
was only written in one point of view. The entire
novel was just written from your high risk point of view.
And I was having a conversation with Evie's a boy
who wrote American Street Pride and is the editor of
(20:00):
Black Enough, amongst many other books, and Ebitaian and so
we share an island and I'm telling her about this
story and I'm like yes, and there's a secret sibling,
and the Eb's listening, and then she's like, so, are
you gonna write the secret simbling and I'm like no, Right.
I was so nervous because I was like, well, it
would be in dr and I would have to get
like the Dominicans from the Dominican Republic and Dominicans from
(20:24):
the diaspora, like those are different experiences, and so it
was interesting to feel like an outsider who had to
be really thoughtful and gentle and open to an experience
different than my own, even though I do know DR.
I have gone many many times, I have spent summers there,
but I've treated it with the respect as if I
(20:45):
were writing and if nessary other than my own. Right,
But the project of putting this book together was kind
of wild, and yeah, I clapped when I land, right
like I'm the only person on the time, and just
like y'all not gonna take this away from me. We
were just in a metal tomb and somehow that was
from there to ear. So yes, craisey. No, it's true.
It's like you have to acknowledge all the parts that
(21:07):
you know and then question the parts that you don't,
and they can lend together to make the story. And
I think people do that whether they're writing fiction or nonfiction.
It's like it makes it even more richer if you
do that research. How did that process go? Was it
primarily family members? Did you look online and not only
for a clap when you land, but all your books? Like,
how do you organize your research when you begin writing? Yeah,
(21:29):
I do a good amount of interviews with especially if
the background is Dominican with my family members and with
my cousins from dr Because sometimes things are just how
I was raised, and I think like, oh, this is
how Dominicans are raised. And sometimes I know my mom
just had her own idiosyncracies, right, and I can't just
melt that that is the way that all Dominicans do it.
So I like to kind of crowdsource, you know, if
(21:50):
something is of the community or of the culture, or
is it just my household. But I will say that
for a clap when you land. Like I said, I
spend time in Sosua and working with young people and
so getting a sense of like the lives that they
live there. I do a lot of Google mapping where
I see neighborhoods. So when I wrote with Monty Santiago story,
I looked at at Fair Hill and I considered what
(22:13):
do the streets look like, and what is Allegheny Avenue
look like? And I've gone to Philly plenty of times.
I taught in Philly, but I went back to the
high school. I had a culinary arts kitchen and studies
and sat in class and watch the students and how
they worked and how the teacher made assignments how he
created assignments. And so my research is very much being
in the moment, kind of getting a sense of what
(22:34):
I don't know. Right, So I write a lot and
then I go in and try to figure out, Okay,
where do I up my background knowledge on this thing.
You're you're like a method actor. You're like, I'm gonna
go in, I'm gonna sit with the students. I'm here hustling.
I appreciate it. No, it's real. I mean I don't
want I'm not out here writing arcs. I write character sketches.
But the work is the work, you know what I mean? Like,
(22:56):
the work is the actual work, and that's the writing
and the imagination, and then you make it true. It's
some for a rapid fire. So it's like the first
thing that comes to your mind. Name a book on
your nightstand. I'm reading Easa Ray's Awkward Black Girl. Oh really,
(23:18):
I'm late. I'm late, but I'm just like Etha, my
best friend. She doesn't know she's so great. If you
had a rap or hip hop career, what would be
your rap name? Well, at one point I lived in
Southeast DCA. So I used to call myself mouthpiece from
Southeast so that this is what hurder. You can only
(23:42):
choose one the House on Mango Street or before we
were free, the House on Mango Street, favorite Dominican dish.
I'm gonna go with the famous Stu Sancocho, which is
Everybody's homecoming. And Penny, what was the first poem you
memorized by heart? Lucia Clifton's Won't You Celebrate with Me?
(24:04):
The last three lines, which go, won't you celebrate with Me?
That every day something has tried to kill me and
has failed. I've since memorized like maybe three four other
of her poems. She's the only person who like I
literally carry in my body alongside my whole wood. Yeah.
Last one. Most memorable open mic moment as a young poet.
I remember performing at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, and
(24:26):
this was probably one of the biggest stages I've ever
been on. I mean, there's nothing like being fifteen and
getting a standing ovation. There's nothing that will ever prepare
you for, like people getting on their feet because something
you said. I think that there was something about that
that showed me like, oh, language harnesses a lot, you know,
it can hardness all of this. Thank you so much.
(24:50):
For joining me and just sharing your process and just
giving us so much, giving us the Elizabeth rhythm. I
really appreciate you, Glory. I'm so happed to be here
with you. It was a delight after the break. Bookshop
owner Lucy You of New York see You and Me
will share her story of being the first Asian American
(25:11):
woman to open a bookstore in Manhattan's Chinatown. This week,
Lucy You of New York's You and Me talks about
(25:33):
how she went from being a chemical engineer to bookshop
owner during the pandemic. I think my nerdiness translates to
both engineering and books, and it was a reliable career path,
you know. I had the four one K and made
my Asian parents proud. They're like, good job, like engineer,
but it wasn't really fulfilling for me. I don't think
it ever was to open up a bookstore in the
(25:55):
middle of a pandemic. I think any business expert would
have been like, what are you thinking? But I think
the hunger for having stories that represent people that look
like me and people that have immigrant stories, people that
have experience is similar to mine is always going to
be there, regardless of whether or not. We're in a pandemic,
(26:16):
and I really wanted to create a home for that,
and create a home where people can come in and
see stories on the walls that they feel close to.
I had experienced, unfortunately, the loss of one of my
best friends in the last year, and I think we
all went through so much loss and so much trauma
and so much grief, and I poured so much of
(26:36):
that into the passion that I always wanted to do,
which is create a bookstore. I found so much comfort
and safety and love within books and stories, and I
think what I saw that was lacking was stories that
we're really pushed on the forefront, especial with people of
color writing them and being at the center of the focus.
It's actually always been there, but in terms of what's
(26:59):
being pushed by the publishers, I don't think it's always
been a top priority. So I wanted to create a
home for that. The Chinese own community has just welcomed
me with open arms. It feels like one big fan Emily.
I mean, the first day that I moved into this
retail space, the dumpling shop next to her Tasty Dumpling,
they brought in like thirty dumplings to just welcome me
(27:21):
into the neighborhood. That kind of love and that kind
of language with food. That was always my mom's way
of saying I love you, I care about you, Let
me give you food without explicitly saying so. That's translated
so much to the neighborhood here. So I feel very
much at home and have been welcomed very much like
home as well. Listen to more conversations with bookshop owners,
(27:45):
community members, and literary advocates on Bookmarks exclusively on Pushkin Plus.
Elizabeth Assavado has a distinct voice as an author that
comes from her experience as a poet and her love
for the rhythms and cadences of hip hop music. What
makes her writing so exciting is that you believe in
(28:07):
what she's saying. She brings you into her world with ease.
Reading her books feels like revisiting your favorite song. I
believe the truest test of any author's work is not
about the awards they win, but who remembers the work deeply,
what happens to their work after it's published. I know
young people will be reading Elizabeth's work for years and
(28:30):
years to come. Plap when you Land is out now
if you haven't gotten it yet. In our next episode,
I'll be joined by Honore Phenone Jeffers to talk about
her debut novel, The Love Songs of w E. B.
Du Bois. Well Read black Girl is a production of
(29:00):
Pushkin Industries. It is written and hosted by me Glory
Dam and produced by Scher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Are
So Shod. Editor is Keishell Williams, Our engineer is Amanda
k Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive
producers are Miya Lobell and Lee Taal Molad. At Pushkin
(29:24):
thanks to Heather Fane, Carl Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton,
Jen Goerra, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at Well Read black Girl.
You can find Pushkin and all social media platforms at
Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter
(29:45):
at pushkin dot Fm. If you have a question, a recommendation,
or you just want to say hi, emails at WRBG
at Pushkin dot Fm. If you love this show and
others from Pushkin Industry, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin
Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and
(30:06):
uninterrupted listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for
Pushgun Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you're already
a subscriber, make sure to check out my exclusive Bookmark series.
You'll hear extended interviews with book club members, bookstore owners,
and more. And do you get to hear what's on
my mind, what's on my radar, and of course, what's
(30:29):
on my reading list each week. To find more Pushgun podcasts,
listen on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like
to listen
Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:38):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisionist History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple
Podcasts or at pushkin dot m. Elizabeth Asaveado is a
(01:08):
poet and author who has crafted some of the most
insightful young adult poetry in recent years. The Dominican American
writer got her start in the slam poetry circuit as
a teenager. Her debut novel The Poet X, about a
fifteen year old girl in Harlem, one of the twenty
eighteen National Book Award in Young People's Literature. Elizabeth writes
(01:28):
novel in verse a single story over several poems. I
consider a poem something that is self contained that talks
about or explores a human experience in the least amount
of words possible, But a novel in verse may only
have maybe ten poems Her recent book, Clap with You
Land follows two teenage girls who learned they share the
(01:49):
same father after he dies in a plane crash. It
was interesting to feel like an outsider who had to
be really thoughtful and gentle and open to an experience
different than my own, even though I do know dr
but I've treated it with the respect as if I
were writing, and if miss Young as my own. Elizabeth
(02:09):
is a former eighth great teacher who is familiar with
the language of young people. This makes it easier for
her to write for and like them. It's just one
of the many reasons she's a success. Welcome to Well
(02:37):
Read Black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't even know
you needed. I'm your host, Glory Adam. Every week I
talked to writers and thinkers about their craft and how
their work shows up in the world. In this episode,
I speak with Elizabeth Ascevedo about how her music influenced
her poetry, why hip hop gave her the tools to
(02:58):
talk about her neighborhood and have her style puts her
in a league of her own. Elizabeth, Welcome to the
wild Ride Black Girl Podcast. I'm so excited too having here.
Glaurie I'm so happed to be here with you. You
(03:20):
know what. Let's start from the beginning. How did poetry
show up in your childhood? When poetry initially showed up
for me, I didn't know to call it poetry. My
grandfather had a third great education. He was a person
who would walk me to and from school every single day,
and he had these riddles that he had memorized. It
was lyrical, it was rhyme. It had the turns that
(03:44):
we are used to in a sonnet in terms of
a volta like. There were these arcs and his riddles,
and that was one of the earliest moments where poetry
was recited to me. My mother loves telling stories, and
so she was constantly telling me stories about when she
was younger and she used to ride horses. And so
for me, poetry arrived as a love of language, as
(04:05):
a love of what language allowed me to access, how
it connected me to a home I didn't always feel
a connection to. And I began writing rap initially, right
to me, that was where I wanted to go. I
wanted to be a hip hop star. I was waiting
for j Z to discover me right and so all
of that was poetry, but I just wasn't calling it
(04:25):
that yet. I love that well. I know you said
in the past that rappers were the original workshop leaders.
You know, so when you look at your favorite rappers musicians,
how have they kind of set an example for you?
And what were you trying to emulate? I think I
was trying to emulate how do I talk about my neighborhood.
How do I talk about folks in ways that feel
(04:47):
centered in that area? Right? And I think hip hop
never felt separate from the people was talking about. I'm
really hard on myself. I'm a little bit of a
perfectionist when it comes to my work. I want to
hold onto a book for a long time and make
sure it's perfect, that everyone who reads it is gonna
love it. And I think watching how I love certain
artists and maybe didn't love that last album or maybe
(05:08):
wasn't moved by quote unquote this particular You're the era
gives me a lot of freedom to realize, like, people
create and sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't. But
also to be an artist in your life for decades
means that you're going to put some stuff out that
isn't the perfection you want it to be, but it's
still moving your legacy or what you are leaving as
(05:32):
your body of work, right right, that's such a good point,
especially as your profile grows. You know, you are a
National Book Award winner, so we got like millions of
people reading your book without question. But there's something to
be said about separating yourself from the work, so you
can just be open to the critique and you can
be open to this idea that not everyone's going to
(05:54):
receive it the way you thought it would be received,
and that's okay, Yeah, for sure. I remember being young
and I loved Eve, and I loved Eve's first album,
and then she was talking about her sophomore album and
she was like, I'm so afraid of the sophomore slump. Like,
you know, you come out with something great and then
you just want to match that first thing. You don't
allow a second, third, fourth project to have its own life,
(06:16):
you know. I'm also thinking about this idea of space,
like what does it mean for you to take up
space where you need to and not just in the
physical form like I've seen you perform. But I just
remember being so captured by your voice and just completely
pulled in you have such a presence about you when
you're performing, and that presence definitely shows up on the
(06:39):
page as well. So can you talk to us about
how you cultivated that, how you learn to just be
in your body and understand your agency? You know? I
laugh a little bit because I'm like, if you only
knew what the struggles I've been having with being in
my body. Right, But I feel that there are times
(06:59):
on stage that I've felt the most me and the
best version of me. That there were moments when it
was quiet and I'm just holding this stage for ten
to fifteen minutes, you know. Sometimes I'm thirty, sometimes forty five.
When I was doing a full one woman show that
was very free. I have not always had a platform
where I could just talk for however long and people
(07:22):
just listen. And so I think that part of the
learning is like, how do I hold a room? How
do I ensure that I'm connecting, that I'm creating pauses?
I find that my books, I ask those same questions.
How do I ensure that my audience feels cared for?
What are the little things I can put in here
to let folks know, like, no, I'm writing to you right,
(07:42):
this is for you. And I think when I was
on stage it was that same thing, looking into an
audience and finding the people to make eye contact with
and the one person in the back who's nodding into everything,
and just like we are creating this together. And for me,
the books feel that way, right, Like what people bring
to a story affects their read I don't know if
you've had this glory where you read something you're like, oh,
(08:03):
this is not for me, right, you stop, you don't finish,
and then two years later you pick it up and
you're like, what was I thinking? Right? The book didn't change,
but you change your ability to be in that space,
your ability to lend your heart and your memories to
a book so that it opens up for you. And
maybe practicing that on stage has helped me be able
to do that with my books, Like I'm going to
(08:23):
give as much as I can so that when you
bring your full self, we're making something together. Right, that's
the story making. Oh that's so beautiful to just the
piggyback off of that. Can you talk about the first
poem that he wrote that made you understand that you
were going to be a poet? Yeah, I was really
young I was maybe eight or nine, and I remember
writing about dolphins. Dolphins don't kill dolphins, and birds don't
(08:46):
kill birds, but people kill people and that really hurts.
That's like probably one of the youngest, like just little
nine year old poem. Right, that's amazing, girl, girl, you
were deep listen and dolphins are actually really violent. Baby
listens was wishfully thanking, but it was always social. It
was always like social critique or why are we this way?
(09:09):
Like I just had so many questions and the writing
was where I could find those answers or at least
chronicle my wanderings. Right, Oh, I love that. I want
to talk about just like I'm thinking about modeling and
how you do that for so many people. And as
I was doing the rereading of your book, I noticed
the dedication and I was so impressed with your kindness
(09:32):
to dedicate it to Catherine and to your former students
at buck Lodge. Can you talk about that, why you
dedicated it to them and what it means for them
to show up in your story. Yeah. I was an
eighth grade English teacher before the poetics ever came out,
before I even had gone to Grand School and started
writing for touring and writing for publication, and teaching eighth
(09:55):
grade is like the cusp of when young people are
really going from being children to now having very new
expectations of young adulthood and hormones and feelings, and it's
really hard to teach that a rat. So I had
this student, Katherine Blane's, who I absolutely adored. She was
just the funniest, wittiest kid, and she was resistant to
(10:17):
silent reading time. And I remember being like, like, what
can I get you? I had to buy all the
like super dope fun books that I could get my
hands on it. She's just like, you know, not only
these books are about us. For her, it was I'm
a solidoring young woman. I need something else. And so
that felt like the baton that I needed at the time,
like why not you? And I had to start questioning,
why not me? I'm a writer, but what do I
(10:37):
think I don't have to offer literature that I don't
want to create a project specifically for these young people
that I know are yearning for this. And so the
dedication was for Catherine, it was for my students. I
think it was for my former self. But also that
dedication is a reflection of a dedication that Angela Johnson
in her book the first part last wrote for me,
(10:59):
where she wrote this is dedicated to Elizabel Savedo and
all the students at the Mahigh School for Children, because
I had written her a letter about her book Heaven,
and I was like, I love this book, but I
want to know more about this secondary character, these long
notes on what I thought she should right, and she
never wrote me back. But two years later this book
came out and the dedication was to me, And so
it felt like with my book when it comes out,
(11:21):
I want to pass on the young person who encouraged
me to go on the path of this project. So
it felt like in homage to Angela Johnson, but also
like who knows who else might be inspired by this
kind of dedication that is just such a wonderful story
that is so endearing and beautiful. I want to talk
about the young people because I'm just curious to hear
(11:43):
what you feel like they've taught you, Like were you
like listening to them in the classroom, Like how do
you why are you able to cultivate that? Because in
every one of your books, a clap when you land
the poet acts it sounds so authentic, and it does
feel like you have this kinship with young people where
you can get their voices, because sometimes you read by
a Bucks and you're like, oh, that's not how young people.
(12:06):
It really sounds like you understand who they are. I
try to really hone my ear in general, just when
I'm with folks, when I'm in community, I'm trying to
listen for cadences, how particular people bump words up against
each other. I was lucky to have been an HBRA
teacher who had a lot of writing projects assigned to
my students, so I got a sense of what they
(12:27):
would reveal, what they wouldn't reveal, what kinds of prompts
inspired them. I honestly would probably give the most credit
to having been the coach for the DCUTH Slam team.
I worked with young poets, which is a little bit
different because they were so motivated. They were engaging with
language constantly, and I got to hear how they were
advancing language, how they were moving it into a different step.
(12:49):
So I go to a lot of events where I'm
not the center. I'm sitting in the back somewhere and
I'm just listening to how young people expressed themselves, and
I have a lot of respect. I think maybe because
I was a young person who I've been mentored and
I remember vividly what mentors did or said that made
me feel valued. But I'm constantly listening After the break
More with the List with Asvedo on her writing and
(13:12):
research process for her latest book, Clap When You Land.
I'm Glory Adam and you're listening to well read Black
Girl today. I'm joined by Elizabeth Asvedo, poet and best
(13:33):
selling author of the poet X and Clap When You Land.
Elizabeth wrote both books as a novel inverse. This is
where a narrative is written using poetry instead of prose.
I really want to look at your process, right, So
with a novel in verse, like where do you begin?
(13:53):
Like sometimes when I'm reading poetry, it feels very interior,
it feels very abstract. At times, it can go anywhere
and there's so much metaphor. But when you're actually structuring
novel inverse, there's a story like you need to, like,
you know, get from a beginning to end in a
very precise way. So how do you construct your novels
so they can have that rhythm? And that structure. But
(14:16):
also I have the very delicate balance of poetry. I
consider a poem something that is self contained, that talks
about or explores a human experience in the least amount
of words possible. But the hardest thing with a novel
and versus that you're juggling narrative. Is there a plot?
Is there a story? Are my characters clear and language?
Then then this third piece that we just talked about,
(14:37):
which is and does it sound like a young person's voice?
Is this the kind of poetry a young person could write?
And that becomes hard. I have to separate the poet self,
who wants to be impressive, from the novelist self, who
wants to be expressive, and just like that meld of well,
it has to be a little bit of both. I
have to control it enough that a reader knows what
(14:57):
she's doing. And I feel safe in these pages because
I'm following someone who is tightly holding the story together.
For the most part, pieces I like to think of
them as hinges, So I create these moments that feel
really beautiful, like we're getting the character's heart, and then
I'm just connecting narrative to those pieces, and I'm letting
it like hinge between the next section and the next section.
(15:20):
But I think that I'm very mindful of the language
and the spacing and the line breaks because of the
ways that it creates breath on the page, momentum on
the page. It gives insight into the speaker or the
characters mindset. If there's no punctuation in a piece, like
you're moving through it a little bit faster. So there's
a lot of craft that I use that is from
(15:41):
having been a poet and learning what those tools are
that I bring here. I want to talk about your
relationship with Hair. I know your new book is coming
out Inheritance, and he decided to stop erform that poem. Yes, yes,
Why why did you decide to do that? And what
was the motivation? What are you trying to really express
(16:04):
to the reader? Yeah, I mean so the hair poem
is it's very much about just the reclamation of self love.
And I loved doing that poem for a long time,
and then I felt like I was getting cornered into oh,
she does the hair poem versus all the other kind
of writing I put into the world, or the other
poems that I have to perform. That poem outgrewmy in
(16:26):
a way that was difficult to catch up too, and
felt like it was restraining me a little bit, like
this is going to be the defining thing A poem
I wrote in two thousand and nine as a senior
in college, will be the last piece of literature that
like anyone cares about, right, And so I think I
slowly started moving away from that. We've had another natural
hair move in the last decade that felt like, all right,
the poem work, people are listening. You know, my job
(16:48):
here is done. It was an evolution of like, I
don't want to be the only one carrying this piece anymore.
But also that poem was written particularly and with my
mom as the person that a lot of those feelings
were targeted as. And as I've grown older, I realized
that some of my hesitation with that poem is that
who I am differs from the person who wrote it,
(17:10):
and so being able to revise it as a book,
I wanted it to be one that could be shared.
So as opposed to this is like my war cry
to my mother, I'm gonna love myself regardless of what
you think I should do with my hair. I wanted
it to be more of a praise poem to all
of us who hold our natural cells, including the mothers
(17:31):
who have protected us, you know, in terms of loving ourselves,
and the aunties and the uncles who this day and
age young people are growing up with. Right, we were
talking about music earlier. Do you feel like your work
has a very distinct rhythm? It's like sometimes I read
something like, okay, like this, Elizabeth Strait. You know what
I'm saying, Like, like, is that something that you feel
(17:52):
very intentional about where you want there to be a
rhythm or a kid and see your work every time
someone encounters it. Yeah, I mean I think that for sure.
Music in all of my work is a big part
of it. Even with the Fire on High Money Santiago story,
which is told in prose. I remember one of the
biggest challenges I had was it doesn't feel like the
language is doing enough, it doesn't feel beautiful enough. And
(18:13):
so going through every single chapter and making sure that
the chapter endings were really thoughtful and all of them
end on an image and all of them end internally
right to give it that interiority that you could get
from a poem. I say, with trying to capture the
imagery and ways that still lean into my poetic self,
because I think that that is where my voice is
(18:35):
most toned. It is in the music, in the words
I move against each other, and the images that most
people may not think of, And so I know that
those are my strengths and it's what I lean on, right,
And so that is style to some extent. But in
terms of my voice, yeah, I hope anyone could pick
up my work and be able to tell, like the
Cadence here is Elizabeth Aasavedo. Almost all my books start
(18:56):
with names, like the first section outright is just like,
what's the character's name? With their relationships of their name,
how does this reflect how they think about their parents
or their homes? And then sometimes there are poems that
end up before that are pieces that end up after,
But the name poem is often where I'm grounding myself
in the character and I spring from there. And you'll
find every single one of my books has some type
(19:16):
of meditation on needs. Yes, I did notice that when
you wrote a cop when you land like, were you
taking memories or experiences you had in the dr like
were you clapping when the plane landed? How did you
craft that narrative Clap when you land was a wild
ass story, right, because I've had this idea in my
(19:36):
head for over a decade about this plane crash that
happened when I was really young, and like the ways
that my community responded to it. So I knew that.
And what a lot of folks on know was that
initially that story, which has two different point of views,
was only written in one point of view. The entire
novel was just written from your high risk point of view.
And I was having a conversation with Evie's a boy
who wrote American Street Pride and is the editor of
(20:00):
Black Enough, amongst many other books, and Ebitaian and so
we share an island and I'm telling her about this
story and I'm like yes, and there's a secret sibling,
and the Eb's listening, and then she's like, so, are
you gonna write the secret simbling and I'm like no, Right.
I was so nervous because I was like, well, it
would be in dr and I would have to get
like the Dominicans from the Dominican Republic and Dominicans from
(20:24):
the diaspora, like those are different experiences, and so it
was interesting to feel like an outsider who had to
be really thoughtful and gentle and open to an experience
different than my own, even though I do know DR.
I have gone many many times, I have spent summers there,
but I've treated it with the respect as if I
(20:45):
were writing and if nessary other than my own. Right,
But the project of putting this book together was kind
of wild, and yeah, I clapped when I land, right
like I'm the only person on the time, and just
like y'all not gonna take this away from me. We
were just in a metal tomb and somehow that was
from there to ear. So yes, craisey. No, it's true.
It's like you have to acknowledge all the parts that
(21:07):
you know and then question the parts that you don't,
and they can lend together to make the story. And
I think people do that whether they're writing fiction or nonfiction.
It's like it makes it even more richer if you
do that research. How did that process go? Was it
primarily family members? Did you look online and not only
for a clap when you land, but all your books? Like,
how do you organize your research when you begin writing? Yeah,
(21:29):
I do a good amount of interviews with especially if
the background is Dominican with my family members and with
my cousins from dr Because sometimes things are just how
I was raised, and I think like, oh, this is
how Dominicans are raised. And sometimes I know my mom
just had her own idiosyncracies, right, and I can't just
melt that that is the way that all Dominicans do it.
So I like to kind of crowdsource, you know, if
(21:50):
something is of the community or of the culture, or
is it just my household. But I will say that
for a clap when you land. Like I said, I
spend time in Sosua and working with young people and
so getting a sense of like the lives that they
live there. I do a lot of Google mapping where
I see neighborhoods. So when I wrote with Monty Santiago story,
I looked at at Fair Hill and I considered what
(22:13):
do the streets look like, and what is Allegheny Avenue
look like? And I've gone to Philly plenty of times.
I taught in Philly, but I went back to the
high school. I had a culinary arts kitchen and studies
and sat in class and watch the students and how
they worked and how the teacher made assignments how he
created assignments. And so my research is very much being
in the moment, kind of getting a sense of what
(22:34):
I don't know. Right, So I write a lot and
then I go in and try to figure out, Okay,
where do I up my background knowledge on this thing.
You're you're like a method actor. You're like, I'm gonna
go in, I'm gonna sit with the students. I'm here hustling.
I appreciate it. No, it's real. I mean I don't
want I'm not out here writing arcs. I write character sketches.
But the work is the work, you know what I mean? Like,
(22:56):
the work is the actual work, and that's the writing
and the imagination, and then you make it true. It's
some for a rapid fire. So it's like the first
thing that comes to your mind. Name a book on
your nightstand. I'm reading Easa Ray's Awkward Black Girl. Oh really,
(23:18):
I'm late. I'm late, but I'm just like Etha, my
best friend. She doesn't know she's so great. If you
had a rap or hip hop career, what would be
your rap name? Well, at one point I lived in
Southeast DCA. So I used to call myself mouthpiece from
Southeast so that this is what hurder. You can only
(23:42):
choose one the House on Mango Street or before we
were free, the House on Mango Street, favorite Dominican dish.
I'm gonna go with the famous Stu Sancocho, which is
Everybody's homecoming. And Penny, what was the first poem you
memorized by heart? Lucia Clifton's Won't You Celebrate with Me?
(24:04):
The last three lines, which go, won't you celebrate with Me?
That every day something has tried to kill me and
has failed. I've since memorized like maybe three four other
of her poems. She's the only person who like I
literally carry in my body alongside my whole wood. Yeah.
Last one. Most memorable open mic moment as a young poet.
I remember performing at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, and
(24:26):
this was probably one of the biggest stages I've ever
been on. I mean, there's nothing like being fifteen and
getting a standing ovation. There's nothing that will ever prepare
you for, like people getting on their feet because something
you said. I think that there was something about that
that showed me like, oh, language harnesses a lot, you know,
it can hardness all of this. Thank you so much.
(24:50):
For joining me and just sharing your process and just
giving us so much, giving us the Elizabeth rhythm. I
really appreciate you, Glory. I'm so happed to be here
with you. It was a delight after the break. Bookshop
owner Lucy You of New York see You and Me
will share her story of being the first Asian American
(25:11):
woman to open a bookstore in Manhattan's Chinatown. This week,
Lucy You of New York's You and Me talks about
(25:33):
how she went from being a chemical engineer to bookshop
owner during the pandemic. I think my nerdiness translates to
both engineering and books, and it was a reliable career path,
you know. I had the four one K and made
my Asian parents proud. They're like, good job, like engineer,
but it wasn't really fulfilling for me. I don't think
it ever was to open up a bookstore in the
(25:55):
middle of a pandemic. I think any business expert would
have been like, what are you thinking? But I think
the hunger for having stories that represent people that look
like me and people that have immigrant stories, people that
have experience is similar to mine is always going to
be there, regardless of whether or not. We're in a pandemic,
(26:16):
and I really wanted to create a home for that,
and create a home where people can come in and
see stories on the walls that they feel close to.
I had experienced, unfortunately, the loss of one of my
best friends in the last year, and I think we
all went through so much loss and so much trauma
and so much grief, and I poured so much of
(26:36):
that into the passion that I always wanted to do,
which is create a bookstore. I found so much comfort
and safety and love within books and stories, and I
think what I saw that was lacking was stories that
we're really pushed on the forefront, especial with people of
color writing them and being at the center of the focus.
It's actually always been there, but in terms of what's
(26:59):
being pushed by the publishers, I don't think it's always
been a top priority. So I wanted to create a
home for that. The Chinese own community has just welcomed
me with open arms. It feels like one big fan Emily.
I mean, the first day that I moved into this
retail space, the dumpling shop next to her Tasty Dumpling,
they brought in like thirty dumplings to just welcome me
(27:21):
into the neighborhood. That kind of love and that kind
of language with food. That was always my mom's way
of saying I love you, I care about you, Let
me give you food without explicitly saying so. That's translated
so much to the neighborhood here. So I feel very
much at home and have been welcomed very much like
home as well. Listen to more conversations with bookshop owners,
(27:45):
community members, and literary advocates on Bookmarks exclusively on Pushkin Plus.
Elizabeth Assavado has a distinct voice as an author that
comes from her experience as a poet and her love
for the rhythms and cadences of hip hop music. What
makes her writing so exciting is that you believe in
(28:07):
what she's saying. She brings you into her world with ease.
Reading her books feels like revisiting your favorite song. I
believe the truest test of any author's work is not
about the awards they win, but who remembers the work deeply,
what happens to their work after it's published. I know
young people will be reading Elizabeth's work for years and
(28:30):
years to come. Plap when you Land is out now
if you haven't gotten it yet. In our next episode,
I'll be joined by Honore Phenone Jeffers to talk about
her debut novel, The Love Songs of w E. B.
Du Bois. Well Read black Girl is a production of
(29:00):
Pushkin Industries. It is written and hosted by me Glory
Dam and produced by Scher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Are
So Shod. Editor is Keishell Williams, Our engineer is Amanda
k Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive
producers are Miya Lobell and Lee Taal Molad. At Pushkin
(29:24):
thanks to Heather Fane, Carl Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton,
Jen Goerra, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at Well Read black Girl.
You can find Pushkin and all social media platforms at
Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter
(29:45):
at pushkin dot Fm. If you have a question, a recommendation,
or you just want to say hi, emails at WRBG
at Pushkin dot Fm. If you love this show and
others from Pushkin Industry, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin
Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and
(30:06):
uninterrupted listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for
Pushgun Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you're already
a subscriber, make sure to check out my exclusive Bookmark series.
You'll hear extended interviews with book club members, bookstore owners,
and more. And do you get to hear what's on
my mind, what's on my radar, and of course, what's
(30:29):
on my reading list each week. To find more Pushgun podcasts,
listen on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like
to listen
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!