May 3, 2022 • 33 mins
Glory speaks with poet and author Honorée Fanonne Jeffers about her award-winning debut novel, The Love Songs of W.E.B. Du Bois. In this episode, Honorée opens up about being inspired by poet Lucille Clifton and about reading Tolstoy at an early age. She also shares her Soul Train scramble board-style writing process and how her faith deepened her love of the written word.
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:37):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
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You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
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up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple
podcast or at pushkin dot Fm. Whenever we think about epics,
(01:07):
we think about the deeds of men. That's poet and
novelists on or ray for known Jeffers. It was always
about men, and no one that taught me these epics
ever challenged that this was great, that this was about me.
And I've been a feminist ever since I was a
(01:29):
little bitty group, and so I would always say, well,
where are the ladies? The ladies are in her latest book,
an epic novel called The Love Songs of w Eb Devoys,
The book spanned several generations of women from a Southern
Black family. It took her more than a decade to
write this epic story not just about women, but about
(01:51):
black Women, and it paid off. Her debut novel won
the twenty twenty two Fiction Prizes from a National Book
Critic Circle. It's a book that I now consider a
literary classic, and I encourage folks to read it all
of the time. Welcome to well Read Black Girl, the
(02:22):
literary kickback you didn't even know you needed. I'm your host,
Glory Adam. Every week I talked to writers and thinkers
about their craft and how their work shows up in
the world. This week I'm with Honore Finn Jeffers, and
our conversation we talk about her early childhood, her writing process,
(02:44):
and how poets like Lucille Clifton influenced her work. Honor,
it is an honored to be in conversation with you.
I have been a longtime fan, and I was stunned
(03:06):
by just the beauty and the grace of your novel,
and I'm excited to talk to you and the community
all about it. The pleasure and the honor is all mine. Well,
I have so many questions, but I think what I
want to do is start from the very very beginning.
I highlighted so many parts of your novel. I was
(03:28):
just taken by your sentences and just the beauty of them.
And I'm going to read one of your sentences back
to you because it's all in my notes. The opening line,
we are the earth, the land, the tongue that speaks
and trips on the names of the dead as it
dares to tell these stories of a woman's line, her people,
(03:51):
her dirt, her trees, her water. It's such a perfect
opening because it also it illustrates the power of your
writing and the power of your voice. And I'm really
curious to hear when did you really start to understand
the command of your language and how to persuade people
(04:11):
on the page, and you do it so beautifully as
a poet. And to see this in your first novel,
Dark Crime, that's why I got my Kleenex right greatly.
You moved me so much. Thank you just telling you
the truth. It is just so profound to read your writing,
and when you encounter it, you have to sit with it,
(04:34):
and you witness it in your poetry, and now you
see it in your first and to say first novel,
I'm so astounded that this is your first because it
just is so epic. It took eleven years, so I
think that that's what people need to understand this was
not something that I put together in two years or
three years. And I was writing The Age of Phillis
(04:57):
at the same time, and so I was in this space.
But when you talk about when did I first learn
the command, do you mean just period or with the
no novel? You know, let's go into both. But I'm
I would love for you to recall a memory as
a child. Oh wow, okay, well it's not my memory.
(05:20):
It's my mama's memory. She remembers that I was five
and I came to her and I said, this is
a story that I wrote, and I want you to
get it published. Absolutely. I don't remember that. That's so arrogant,
poor a little girl, right, But I do remember. You know,
(05:43):
my father was a well known Black Arts Movement poet.
I resisted being a writer for so long because I
had a very difficult relationship with my father, and he
cast a very big shadow, and he was very brilliant.
I first read Toadstoy because he gave me Toastory to read.
(06:06):
Now I was like eleven years old, and so we
would go to poetry readings of his and my father
had this deep barit a tone voice and he would
transform when he would do these poetry readings, and women
would weep and people would shout, like it was in
(06:29):
church or something like that. There was just like a power,
and I thought I could never be that, and so
I had my little journals and I scribbled and all
of that. There were other moments I won't say in
terms of creatively, but there were moments where I realized,
(06:50):
and this is gonna sound strange for a child, that
my power was very disturbing two adults. I had another teacher,
and you can't defame the dead, so I can call
her name Missus Ratliffe. And I remember in seventh grade,
Missus Ratliffe to me to come. I love Miss Ratleffe.
(07:13):
She was my science teacher. She had a ponytail. She's
a white lady, and it would bounce up and down
when she was explaining science to us and all that.
I adored her. So one day Miss Ratliffe told me
she had something very serious and important to talk to
me about, and she wanted me to stay after school.
So I was going through my memory like what did
(07:34):
I say? What did I do to just please miss Ratliffe?
Because I adored her, and so she closed the door,
and you know, it was just us, and she said
she was very concerned by how loud I was. I
spoke way too loud and girls could not be loud.
(07:57):
And this is a woman in the Stamfield, so I know,
I know, I was thinking, well, you know, even as
a child, of course, I was just thinking. This lady
is a scientist. And she told this about there weren't
a lot of ladies in the sciences and here she is,
you know. So she kept on going and she said,
(08:18):
this is when I knew there was something about me
that must have been frightening, because she went out of
her way to destroy me. She said, if you don't
learn how to lower your voice, no one will like you,
and you will never find a man to love you. Oh,
(08:42):
you will never find a husband. And she just kept
one And in that moment, I knew I must be
really special, because this lady is going out of her
way to be mean to me. And I couldn't really
understand what was happening, but I remember that, Yeah, I
(09:07):
remember that, and I thought, WHOA. I never told my
mother because I knew my ah, I knew my mother
was going to she wouldn't have it more than she
wouldn't have had it. It would have been like smoke
in the city, you know. And so I never told
(09:28):
my mother, but I remember writing a poet based upon
that when I was in graduate school. It wasn't a
very good point. None of my poems were getting graduate school.
But I remember the last line was silence can't get
me a witness, And I think that was the true moment.
But I will say miss Ratliffe gave me a very
(09:51):
odd gift, you know. And I was twelve. Then, well,
these moments happened at a young age, and they leave
such a firm impression on who you will become, because
it's not you have to be careful with what you
say to children. It's true. It's so true because you
could have taken that moment and I could have had
the reverse effects. You could have gotten quieter, and you
(10:13):
could have just went inward and not spoken to people.
But instead you found a moment to be powerful and
more of yourself. I really think. And I don't need
everybody or even want everybody to believe in God. My
thing is everybody has their belief or nonbelief or whatever.
(10:34):
And I'm respectful, and you know, most of my friends
or atheists, but I do think that God had his
her their hand upon me. I think everybody's got something.
My blessing was that I found what it was, and
I have a deep belief that everybody's got something extraordinary
(10:58):
within them. The problem is is that some people are
not writers and they try to make themselves be writers,
or some people are not dancers and they try to
make themselves be dancers. But I think everyone has something.
I have so many questions for you because I think
that also what's so beautiful about how you work is
your relationship to history. And I think you knowing your
(11:22):
family history, you knowing the boys, you just knowing the
history of America allows us to have this epic tale.
And you said before that you wanted to write a
kitchen table epic. Can you explain to me what that
means and how you even came to that conclusion that
that's what you wanted to tell the world in terms
of the kitchen table epic. Whenever we think about epics,
(11:46):
we think about the deeds of men. I was an
English major, and you know, I read Bail Wolf and
when we read translated excerpts from Odisseus, it was always
about men, and no one that taught me these epics
ever challenged that this was great, that this was about men.
(12:11):
And I been a feminist ever since I was a
little bitty girl, and so I would always say, well,
where are the ladies? And so when I first started
writing a book, I was just getting in where I
fit in, right, I was just writing. And that's what
I do. I write these pieces and then I'll sit
with them and then I'll start. You're a little young
(12:33):
to remember the original Soul Train, but they're used to
be watched three runs, okay, you know the Soul Train
scramble board, and they were doing this right. And that's
what I do, Right. I write something and I say, oh,
this will fit. You know, I have a little outline.
But when I began to think about it, and I thought,
(12:55):
why not an epic journey but of black women? Yes,
not just women, but black women, because sometimes my white
sisters are under the mistaken impression that their empowerment is
our bad, right, you know, if you know they say
women A and black people and I'm like, no, I
(13:18):
need me. After the break more with Honora Enne Jeffers
on how her academic work continues to give literary elders
like Lucille Clifton and Tony Morrison their flowers. I'm Glory Adam,
(13:45):
and you're listening to well read Black Girl today. I'm
joined by Honora Venne Jeffers, author of the Love Songs
of W. E. B. Du Boys, your affection for du
boys from the title, and just like the framing of
the entire book, why did you choose sorrow songs to
(14:06):
frame everything? Oh? Oh, when I was a little girl
and we would go down south every summer to Eatonton, Georgia.
So Chickaseete is a fictional him, but in my mind
it's based on Eatington. But I don't know Eatonton because
I didn't grow up there. I only remember it as
(14:26):
a child and a young girl. And then I started
thinking about this is the indigenous folks land. It's still
belongs to them. Even if Georgia is taken over by this,
that and the other, It's still the land of the
Creek and the Cherokee and the young across and all
(14:49):
of those original folks that live there. And so I
wanted to have a non Western kind of way to
enter into, like almost a biblical lineage. And being very
respectful that it wasn't biblical, but when I think as
a little girl, those were sort of my elders voices
(15:11):
and then the voices of the King James Bible. So
I was sort of thinking about how could I flip
the Bible and make that a non Western way of
entering into this sacred place and this sacred lineage. And
so that's that's how I started that. And I've talked
(15:32):
about this frequently. Alice Walker's from Eatonton. My mother taught
Alice Walker. Miss Walker wrote a review, a beautiful review,
Oh God, a beauty all day law stunning, and I
didn't even know she had written it. She wrote it
back in September. Somebody posted it and you know, tweeted
(15:57):
it and tagged me, and I was like, oh my god,
my world is round now, right, But doesn't that feel
like destiny? From your mother teaching Alice Walker to her
no reviewing, and just like, like, how not all? It
feels like the Lord word. I have to tell you,
(16:19):
I have some real tough times grown up, and there
were times where I really feel like I wouldn't make it,
and I'll just say that, and so to be here
because I would get these not real voices, but like
a feeling when I would be in the midst of
despair as a child, as a teenager, as a young
(16:42):
woman that said something better. It's gonna be down the
road if you just have that faith. And so yeah,
I feel it really rocks my worlds sometimes when I
think about it. But to talk about the sorrow songs,
when I would go down south to my grandma's church,
(17:06):
flat right primitive Baptists, and they would line out the
songs right, and the old people they would have this
beautiful sort of way that they would drag through a song,
God my feet, why I run this race? And then
(17:33):
everybody else would come in. I have never forgotten those moments.
That's why the church is all in the book. I mean,
I'm a radical feminist, pro LGBTQ Christian and I always
joke with people that's like jumbo shrimp, that's like hasy moron.
(17:55):
But I'm not trying to hit Christianity over the hit
with people. And there are West African gestures in the
book with two particular characters that nobody ever talks about,
but they're there. But it's because when I would hear
these songs, they really impressed something upon me. And then
(18:17):
when I read The Boys for the first time, I
think I was in junior high school and I read
the sorrow Songs and I thought, oh, okay, this is it,
this is what he's talking about, and it stayed with me.
But I do think people are like, this is odd.
You wrote a book all about black women and then
put the Boys, you know, in the time. I love
(18:40):
the juxtaposition of that because even with the sorrow Songs,
there is a line from that chapter where he says
they walked in darkness, sang songs in the olden days,
sorrow songs where they were weary at heart. But you
can continue that sentence to also say they had wonder
in their heart. You know, they really had wonder and
(19:00):
they had faith. Yes, they saw us here, they saw
us reading when it was again it's the law for
them to read. They saw all of this for us, Yes,
and to me that is a miracle. Yes. And then
(19:21):
when I think about people who are not descended black folks,
who are not descended from the trans atlantic slave trade,
who were here too, and here we are agather. Yes, finally, yes,
you know, we were separated for hundreds of years and
here we are back together. That's just powerful to me.
(19:44):
I mean, at this point, as a writer, you said it,
you've written five books, five beautiful poetry books. At that
the novel is your six book. I am just really
curious to hear what's going to surprise you? What are
you hoping for in the future when you look at
the page, What are you like wanting to put down
these days? Are you working on more poetry? Will there
(20:06):
be a second novel? What is in store? Well? I
hope there will be a second novel. I hope there
will be a third novel. I hope, you know. I mean,
I always say, if the Lord allows me to live,
I have my things that I want to do. But
for now, I'm working on essays. And that's what wakes
(20:27):
me up out of my sleep. When I really get
into something, it will wake me up. Words will wake
me up from my sleep. So I'm writing essays and
I'm writing short stories. So we'll return to Chickasta with
some of the minor characters, like mister Krudup, the funeral
(20:48):
home director. I have a story about him. I have
a story about Mima as a very old lady. Oh,
that's wonderful to hear us, because that was another question.
Will these characters have another life and other stories and
other plays or essays, and you just never know. I plan,
but then something just comes and sweep it out of
(21:11):
the way, so some will have different lives. I always
want to tell people. I won't tell them how Coco
will be returning, because people were like, what happened to Coca?
Why do you cock up? But what people What I
always say to people is if I may be allowed
(21:33):
a bit of arrogance, I'm a master poet, but I'm
not a master novelist. Okay, this is my first Okay,
you're sweet, I see you about to say yo are.
But I did my best. This is what I tell
people in the book. But I wasn't going to experiment
(21:54):
with writing an LGBTQ character, particularly because Coco, you know,
Aley and Lydia were all abused as children, and so
the last thing I wanted to do was put forth
a method sage that because Coco was abused, that's why
she was a lesbian. I was like, I'm not putting
(22:17):
that out there. And so much was focused on the
abuse in this book, and so when I write about
Coco another time, that's not going to be in the foregram.
So I was really scared. I was like, I didn't
know if I had the skills. And then by the
time I realized I had the skills, the book was
(22:38):
already in production. But yeah, Coco will be coming back.
Then I'm writing the biography of Lucil Clifton. I did
not know that, and my eye promised, my heart just
jumped because that is overdue. That needs to be the
book of essays about her that did some biographical work.
(23:04):
But I'm really interested in the granular details of her
life and her ancestor and placing her also in a
very firmly black context. Oh yeah, it's one hundred percent.
If you can share, how long have you been working
on this? And I just start? Okay, I wrote about
(23:24):
her and about her work. Did you also invent archival coda?
So this is how the archival coda got invented. Okay,
first of all, I'm an academic, I have tenure, I'm
full professor now, and I'm an in dale chair. Back then,
I was just you know, that was in twenty twenty.
(23:45):
You do not reference or site someone without documentation, right,
So I present the essay to the portrait foundation with
my bibliography. And he comes back and he's like, we
don't do that, and I said, well, I can't give
(24:06):
you this essay without documentation. I'm not trying to get
fired for plagiarism, because that is what constitutes plagiarism, is
to be using information that you do not sight right. Okay.
So I thought about it, and I thought, and sometimes
(24:30):
mis cincilla just come to me. It should just give
me little ideas, and I thought, well, how could I
make this pretty? So then I had like a little
mini essay, okay, called an archival coda, and I said,
in the Da da da da issue of this particular
(24:52):
journal such and such, So it basically a bibliographic essay,
but it's just written nicer. I knew that there were
going to be some books that I wanted people to know.
In the back of Love Songs, I could not have
written love songs without the color purple. I could not
have I kick myself that I forgot to include the
(25:14):
bluest i in the archival coda. I could not have
written love songs without the bluest I could not have
written leve songs without beloved. But Professor Morrison couldn't have
written Beloved without Incidents in the Life of a Slave
Girl Bred Douglas. But that archival coda is condensed. I
(25:39):
read about thirty to thirty five books while writing love songs.
But keep in mind that many of those books I
had read for the Age of Phyllis. So if people
really want a very extensive bibliography, they only have to
(25:59):
look at the back of the Age of Phyllis, and
I have a selective bibliography there. Oh well, I am
going to adopt the archival coda clearly, site you, because
that it's part of my practice too. I feel so
I feel like a kinship with so many of the
stories that have influenced my childhood and hearing it from
(26:21):
your lips as a tenured professor, as an now chair,
as an amazing academic. For me, sometimes it feels like
I'm placing it on my bookshelf and I'm looking in
a way that is tied to memories. But adding it
to the academy, you know what I mean? That that's important,
some really great what we call canonical gestures in academia
(26:44):
with on Girlhood. Oh, thank you, thank you so much.
It was it was my that that project for me
was such a love song because those stories were things
that I mean that I still read continuously, Like every
short story in that collection is son know what's funny?
(27:07):
So I'm all about supporting black writers. So I bought
the book. Oh thank you, thank you. So I got
a free copy in the mail of I have two.
I have two copies, and I'm like, should I keep
both and hat and eat cheeking over one, you know,
because I have like or should I give this as
(27:28):
a gift? So I think I'm gonna give it as
a gift. Oh thank you. That is the sisterhood. Pass
it along. I'm monaey for none. Jeffers and you were
listening to whale Red Black Girl. It's time for rapid
(27:49):
by your moment. So this is gonna be really fast, Like, okay,
just what's first into your mind? So the first one
is what is your life's theme song? Glory Gainer? I
will survive? Yes, yes, Glory Gain. I guess name a
book on your night sand Eric Foner's Reconstruction. Favorite place
(28:11):
you have traveled, Synegal, title of the first poem you
ever wrote. If you can remember, I have never loved
another as I have you so bad? Favorite book by W. E. V.
Two Boys and Why the Souls of Black Folk. He's
(28:32):
so passionate in that book. He's so passionate. Thank you,
Thank y'all. I appreciate you all. What a privilege to
speak with Honore. I loved hearing about the agency she
seemed to have over herself from a very young age,
(28:54):
and how she always stood up for her beliefs as
an author and as a Black woman. She displays an
inner fortitude that we can all admire and borrow from
hearing Honor a talk about using sorrow songs to frame
her novel. Mini wants to share a part of a
Lucy Clifton poem that always speaks to me. It sits
in conversation with Honore's work, and it's also called sorrow
(29:17):
Song for the eyes of the children of Middle passage
for Cherokee eyes, Ethiopian eyes, Russian eyes, American eyes, for
all that remains of the children, their eyes staring at us,
amazed to see the extraordinary evil and ordinary men. After
(29:40):
the break, will be joined by Romanda Lark Young from
Ahogany Books in Washington, DC to talk about how she
created a space to make black books accessible. This week,
(30:06):
Romanda lark Young, owner of Ahogany Books in Washington, d C.
Gives us a little insight into the bookshops origin and
what books you need to have in your home. So
my Hockey Books opened almost fifteen years ago today, in
the middle of then what was a recession. But my
husband and I were looking for business ideas, something that
(30:28):
we really could feel committed to and connected to. We
landed at bookstore for a lot of reasons. One for me,
we want to make black books accessible to people in Oklahoma, California, Idaho, Iowa, wherever,
because we knew how transformative they were in our lives.
So it's been exciting, it's been scary, it's been off
the chain, but rewarding. You know, people asking us about
(30:51):
our favorite books often, and there are so many, one
as The Afro Minimalist Guide to Living with Less by
Christine Platte of course the sixteen nineteen Project. I feel
like that should be in everybody's home. Listen to more
of this conversation on the Latest Bookmarks, exclusively on pushkin Plus,
and be sure to check out Honore's debut novel, The
(31:13):
Love Songs of W. E. B. D. Boys if you
haven't already. In our next episode, we'll be joined by
tr Jones to talk about her latest novel in American
Marriage Well Read. Black Girl is a production of Pushkin Industries.
(31:34):
It is written and hosted by me Glory Dam and
produced by Scher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor
is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and
our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Mia
Lobell and Lee taal Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
(31:58):
Carl Migliori, Jason Gambrau, Julia Barton, Jen Goerra, John Schnars,
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(32:20):
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(32:40):
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(33:01):
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Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:37):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
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You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
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up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple
podcast or at pushkin dot Fm. Whenever we think about epics,
(01:07):
we think about the deeds of men. That's poet and
novelists on or ray for known Jeffers. It was always
about men, and no one that taught me these epics
ever challenged that this was great, that this was about me.
And I've been a feminist ever since I was a
(01:29):
little bitty group, and so I would always say, well,
where are the ladies? The ladies are in her latest book,
an epic novel called The Love Songs of w Eb Devoys,
The book spanned several generations of women from a Southern
Black family. It took her more than a decade to
write this epic story not just about women, but about
(01:51):
black Women, and it paid off. Her debut novel won
the twenty twenty two Fiction Prizes from a National Book
Critic Circle. It's a book that I now consider a
literary classic, and I encourage folks to read it all
of the time. Welcome to well Read Black Girl, the
(02:22):
literary kickback you didn't even know you needed. I'm your host,
Glory Adam. Every week I talked to writers and thinkers
about their craft and how their work shows up in
the world. This week I'm with Honore Finn Jeffers, and
our conversation we talk about her early childhood, her writing process,
(02:44):
and how poets like Lucille Clifton influenced her work. Honor,
it is an honored to be in conversation with you.
I have been a longtime fan, and I was stunned
(03:06):
by just the beauty and the grace of your novel,
and I'm excited to talk to you and the community
all about it. The pleasure and the honor is all mine. Well,
I have so many questions, but I think what I
want to do is start from the very very beginning.
I highlighted so many parts of your novel. I was
(03:28):
just taken by your sentences and just the beauty of them.
And I'm going to read one of your sentences back
to you because it's all in my notes. The opening line,
we are the earth, the land, the tongue that speaks
and trips on the names of the dead as it
dares to tell these stories of a woman's line, her people,
(03:51):
her dirt, her trees, her water. It's such a perfect
opening because it also it illustrates the power of your
writing and the power of your voice. And I'm really
curious to hear when did you really start to understand
the command of your language and how to persuade people
(04:11):
on the page, and you do it so beautifully as
a poet. And to see this in your first novel,
Dark Crime, that's why I got my Kleenex right greatly.
You moved me so much. Thank you just telling you
the truth. It is just so profound to read your writing,
and when you encounter it, you have to sit with it,
(04:34):
and you witness it in your poetry, and now you
see it in your first and to say first novel,
I'm so astounded that this is your first because it
just is so epic. It took eleven years, so I
think that that's what people need to understand this was
not something that I put together in two years or
three years. And I was writing The Age of Phillis
(04:57):
at the same time, and so I was in this space.
But when you talk about when did I first learn
the command, do you mean just period or with the
no novel? You know, let's go into both. But I'm
I would love for you to recall a memory as
a child. Oh wow, okay, well it's not my memory.
(05:20):
It's my mama's memory. She remembers that I was five
and I came to her and I said, this is
a story that I wrote, and I want you to
get it published. Absolutely. I don't remember that. That's so arrogant,
poor a little girl, right, But I do remember. You know,
(05:43):
my father was a well known Black Arts Movement poet.
I resisted being a writer for so long because I
had a very difficult relationship with my father, and he
cast a very big shadow, and he was very brilliant.
I first read Toadstoy because he gave me Toastory to read.
(06:06):
Now I was like eleven years old, and so we
would go to poetry readings of his and my father
had this deep barit a tone voice and he would
transform when he would do these poetry readings, and women
would weep and people would shout, like it was in
(06:29):
church or something like that. There was just like a power,
and I thought I could never be that, and so
I had my little journals and I scribbled and all
of that. There were other moments I won't say in
terms of creatively, but there were moments where I realized,
(06:50):
and this is gonna sound strange for a child, that
my power was very disturbing two adults. I had another teacher,
and you can't defame the dead, so I can call
her name Missus Ratliffe. And I remember in seventh grade,
Missus Ratliffe to me to come. I love Miss Ratleffe.
(07:13):
She was my science teacher. She had a ponytail. She's
a white lady, and it would bounce up and down
when she was explaining science to us and all that.
I adored her. So one day Miss Ratliffe told me
she had something very serious and important to talk to
me about, and she wanted me to stay after school.
So I was going through my memory like what did
(07:34):
I say? What did I do to just please miss Ratliffe?
Because I adored her, and so she closed the door,
and you know, it was just us, and she said
she was very concerned by how loud I was. I
spoke way too loud and girls could not be loud.
(07:57):
And this is a woman in the Stamfield, so I know,
I know, I was thinking, well, you know, even as
a child, of course, I was just thinking. This lady
is a scientist. And she told this about there weren't
a lot of ladies in the sciences and here she is,
you know. So she kept on going and she said,
(08:18):
this is when I knew there was something about me
that must have been frightening, because she went out of
her way to destroy me. She said, if you don't
learn how to lower your voice, no one will like you,
and you will never find a man to love you. Oh,
(08:42):
you will never find a husband. And she just kept
one And in that moment, I knew I must be
really special, because this lady is going out of her
way to be mean to me. And I couldn't really
understand what was happening, but I remember that, Yeah, I
(09:07):
remember that, and I thought, WHOA. I never told my
mother because I knew my ah, I knew my mother
was going to she wouldn't have it more than she
wouldn't have had it. It would have been like smoke
in the city, you know. And so I never told
(09:28):
my mother, but I remember writing a poet based upon
that when I was in graduate school. It wasn't a
very good point. None of my poems were getting graduate school.
But I remember the last line was silence can't get
me a witness, And I think that was the true moment.
But I will say miss Ratliffe gave me a very
(09:51):
odd gift, you know. And I was twelve. Then, well,
these moments happened at a young age, and they leave
such a firm impression on who you will become, because
it's not you have to be careful with what you
say to children. It's true. It's so true because you
could have taken that moment and I could have had
the reverse effects. You could have gotten quieter, and you
(10:13):
could have just went inward and not spoken to people.
But instead you found a moment to be powerful and
more of yourself. I really think. And I don't need
everybody or even want everybody to believe in God. My
thing is everybody has their belief or nonbelief or whatever.
(10:34):
And I'm respectful, and you know, most of my friends
or atheists, but I do think that God had his
her their hand upon me. I think everybody's got something.
My blessing was that I found what it was, and
I have a deep belief that everybody's got something extraordinary
(10:58):
within them. The problem is is that some people are
not writers and they try to make themselves be writers,
or some people are not dancers and they try to
make themselves be dancers. But I think everyone has something.
I have so many questions for you because I think
that also what's so beautiful about how you work is
your relationship to history. And I think you knowing your
(11:22):
family history, you knowing the boys, you just knowing the
history of America allows us to have this epic tale.
And you said before that you wanted to write a
kitchen table epic. Can you explain to me what that
means and how you even came to that conclusion that
that's what you wanted to tell the world in terms
of the kitchen table epic. Whenever we think about epics,
(11:46):
we think about the deeds of men. I was an
English major, and you know, I read Bail Wolf and
when we read translated excerpts from Odisseus, it was always
about men, and no one that taught me these epics
ever challenged that this was great, that this was about men.
(12:11):
And I been a feminist ever since I was a
little bitty girl, and so I would always say, well,
where are the ladies? And so when I first started
writing a book, I was just getting in where I
fit in, right, I was just writing. And that's what
I do. I write these pieces and then I'll sit
with them and then I'll start. You're a little young
(12:33):
to remember the original Soul Train, but they're used to
be watched three runs, okay, you know the Soul Train
scramble board, and they were doing this right. And that's
what I do, Right. I write something and I say, oh,
this will fit. You know, I have a little outline.
But when I began to think about it, and I thought,
(12:55):
why not an epic journey but of black women? Yes,
not just women, but black women, because sometimes my white
sisters are under the mistaken impression that their empowerment is
our bad, right, you know, if you know they say
women A and black people and I'm like, no, I
(13:18):
need me. After the break more with Honora Enne Jeffers
on how her academic work continues to give literary elders
like Lucille Clifton and Tony Morrison their flowers. I'm Glory Adam,
(13:45):
and you're listening to well read Black Girl today. I'm
joined by Honora Venne Jeffers, author of the Love Songs
of W. E. B. Du Boys, your affection for du
boys from the title, and just like the framing of
the entire book, why did you choose sorrow songs to
(14:06):
frame everything? Oh? Oh, when I was a little girl
and we would go down south every summer to Eatonton, Georgia.
So Chickaseete is a fictional him, but in my mind
it's based on Eatington. But I don't know Eatonton because
I didn't grow up there. I only remember it as
(14:26):
a child and a young girl. And then I started
thinking about this is the indigenous folks land. It's still
belongs to them. Even if Georgia is taken over by this,
that and the other, It's still the land of the
Creek and the Cherokee and the young across and all
(14:49):
of those original folks that live there. And so I
wanted to have a non Western kind of way to
enter into, like almost a biblical lineage. And being very
respectful that it wasn't biblical, but when I think as
a little girl, those were sort of my elders voices
(15:11):
and then the voices of the King James Bible. So
I was sort of thinking about how could I flip
the Bible and make that a non Western way of
entering into this sacred place and this sacred lineage. And
so that's that's how I started that. And I've talked
(15:32):
about this frequently. Alice Walker's from Eatonton. My mother taught
Alice Walker. Miss Walker wrote a review, a beautiful review,
Oh God, a beauty all day law stunning, and I
didn't even know she had written it. She wrote it
back in September. Somebody posted it and you know, tweeted
(15:57):
it and tagged me, and I was like, oh my god,
my world is round now, right, But doesn't that feel
like destiny? From your mother teaching Alice Walker to her
no reviewing, and just like, like, how not all? It
feels like the Lord word. I have to tell you,
(16:19):
I have some real tough times grown up, and there
were times where I really feel like I wouldn't make it,
and I'll just say that, and so to be here
because I would get these not real voices, but like
a feeling when I would be in the midst of
despair as a child, as a teenager, as a young
(16:42):
woman that said something better. It's gonna be down the
road if you just have that faith. And so yeah,
I feel it really rocks my worlds sometimes when I
think about it. But to talk about the sorrow songs,
when I would go down south to my grandma's church,
(17:06):
flat right primitive Baptists, and they would line out the
songs right, and the old people they would have this
beautiful sort of way that they would drag through a song,
God my feet, why I run this race? And then
(17:33):
everybody else would come in. I have never forgotten those moments.
That's why the church is all in the book. I mean,
I'm a radical feminist, pro LGBTQ Christian and I always
joke with people that's like jumbo shrimp, that's like hasy moron.
(17:55):
But I'm not trying to hit Christianity over the hit
with people. And there are West African gestures in the
book with two particular characters that nobody ever talks about,
but they're there. But it's because when I would hear
these songs, they really impressed something upon me. And then
(18:17):
when I read The Boys for the first time, I
think I was in junior high school and I read
the sorrow Songs and I thought, oh, okay, this is it,
this is what he's talking about, and it stayed with me.
But I do think people are like, this is odd.
You wrote a book all about black women and then
put the Boys, you know, in the time. I love
(18:40):
the juxtaposition of that because even with the sorrow Songs,
there is a line from that chapter where he says
they walked in darkness, sang songs in the olden days,
sorrow songs where they were weary at heart. But you
can continue that sentence to also say they had wonder
in their heart. You know, they really had wonder and
(19:00):
they had faith. Yes, they saw us here, they saw
us reading when it was again it's the law for
them to read. They saw all of this for us, Yes,
and to me that is a miracle. Yes. And then
(19:21):
when I think about people who are not descended black folks,
who are not descended from the trans atlantic slave trade,
who were here too, and here we are agather. Yes, finally, yes,
you know, we were separated for hundreds of years and
here we are back together. That's just powerful to me.
(19:44):
I mean, at this point, as a writer, you said it,
you've written five books, five beautiful poetry books. At that
the novel is your six book. I am just really
curious to hear what's going to surprise you? What are
you hoping for in the future when you look at
the page, What are you like wanting to put down
these days? Are you working on more poetry? Will there
(20:06):
be a second novel? What is in store? Well? I
hope there will be a second novel. I hope there
will be a third novel. I hope, you know. I mean,
I always say, if the Lord allows me to live,
I have my things that I want to do. But
for now, I'm working on essays. And that's what wakes
(20:27):
me up out of my sleep. When I really get
into something, it will wake me up. Words will wake
me up from my sleep. So I'm writing essays and
I'm writing short stories. So we'll return to Chickasta with
some of the minor characters, like mister Krudup, the funeral
(20:48):
home director. I have a story about him. I have
a story about Mima as a very old lady. Oh,
that's wonderful to hear us, because that was another question.
Will these characters have another life and other stories and
other plays or essays, and you just never know. I plan,
but then something just comes and sweep it out of
(21:11):
the way, so some will have different lives. I always
want to tell people. I won't tell them how Coco
will be returning, because people were like, what happened to Coca?
Why do you cock up? But what people What I
always say to people is if I may be allowed
(21:33):
a bit of arrogance, I'm a master poet, but I'm
not a master novelist. Okay, this is my first Okay,
you're sweet, I see you about to say yo are.
But I did my best. This is what I tell
people in the book. But I wasn't going to experiment
(21:54):
with writing an LGBTQ character, particularly because Coco, you know,
Aley and Lydia were all abused as children, and so
the last thing I wanted to do was put forth
a method sage that because Coco was abused, that's why
she was a lesbian. I was like, I'm not putting
(22:17):
that out there. And so much was focused on the
abuse in this book, and so when I write about
Coco another time, that's not going to be in the foregram.
So I was really scared. I was like, I didn't
know if I had the skills. And then by the
time I realized I had the skills, the book was
(22:38):
already in production. But yeah, Coco will be coming back.
Then I'm writing the biography of Lucil Clifton. I did
not know that, and my eye promised, my heart just
jumped because that is overdue. That needs to be the
book of essays about her that did some biographical work.
(23:04):
But I'm really interested in the granular details of her
life and her ancestor and placing her also in a
very firmly black context. Oh yeah, it's one hundred percent.
If you can share, how long have you been working
on this? And I just start? Okay, I wrote about
(23:24):
her and about her work. Did you also invent archival coda?
So this is how the archival coda got invented. Okay,
first of all, I'm an academic, I have tenure, I'm
full professor now, and I'm an in dale chair. Back then,
I was just you know, that was in twenty twenty.
(23:45):
You do not reference or site someone without documentation, right,
So I present the essay to the portrait foundation with
my bibliography. And he comes back and he's like, we
don't do that, and I said, well, I can't give
(24:06):
you this essay without documentation. I'm not trying to get
fired for plagiarism, because that is what constitutes plagiarism, is
to be using information that you do not sight right. Okay.
So I thought about it, and I thought, and sometimes
(24:30):
mis cincilla just come to me. It should just give
me little ideas, and I thought, well, how could I
make this pretty? So then I had like a little
mini essay, okay, called an archival coda, and I said,
in the Da da da da issue of this particular
(24:52):
journal such and such, So it basically a bibliographic essay,
but it's just written nicer. I knew that there were
going to be some books that I wanted people to know.
In the back of Love Songs, I could not have
written love songs without the color purple. I could not
have I kick myself that I forgot to include the
(25:14):
bluest i in the archival coda. I could not have
written love songs without the bluest I could not have
written leve songs without beloved. But Professor Morrison couldn't have
written Beloved without Incidents in the Life of a Slave
Girl Bred Douglas. But that archival coda is condensed. I
(25:39):
read about thirty to thirty five books while writing love songs.
But keep in mind that many of those books I
had read for the Age of Phyllis. So if people
really want a very extensive bibliography, they only have to
(25:59):
look at the back of the Age of Phyllis, and
I have a selective bibliography there. Oh well, I am
going to adopt the archival coda clearly, site you, because
that it's part of my practice too. I feel so
I feel like a kinship with so many of the
stories that have influenced my childhood and hearing it from
(26:21):
your lips as a tenured professor, as an now chair,
as an amazing academic. For me, sometimes it feels like
I'm placing it on my bookshelf and I'm looking in
a way that is tied to memories. But adding it
to the academy, you know what I mean? That that's important,
some really great what we call canonical gestures in academia
(26:44):
with on Girlhood. Oh, thank you, thank you so much.
It was it was my that that project for me
was such a love song because those stories were things
that I mean that I still read continuously, Like every
short story in that collection is son know what's funny?
(27:07):
So I'm all about supporting black writers. So I bought
the book. Oh thank you, thank you. So I got
a free copy in the mail of I have two.
I have two copies, and I'm like, should I keep
both and hat and eat cheeking over one, you know,
because I have like or should I give this as
(27:28):
a gift? So I think I'm gonna give it as
a gift. Oh thank you. That is the sisterhood. Pass
it along. I'm monaey for none. Jeffers and you were
listening to whale Red Black Girl. It's time for rapid
(27:49):
by your moment. So this is gonna be really fast, Like, okay,
just what's first into your mind? So the first one
is what is your life's theme song? Glory Gainer? I
will survive? Yes, yes, Glory Gain. I guess name a
book on your night sand Eric Foner's Reconstruction. Favorite place
(28:11):
you have traveled, Synegal, title of the first poem you
ever wrote. If you can remember, I have never loved
another as I have you so bad? Favorite book by W. E. V.
Two Boys and Why the Souls of Black Folk. He's
(28:32):
so passionate in that book. He's so passionate. Thank you,
Thank y'all. I appreciate you all. What a privilege to
speak with Honore. I loved hearing about the agency she
seemed to have over herself from a very young age,
(28:54):
and how she always stood up for her beliefs as
an author and as a Black woman. She displays an
inner fortitude that we can all admire and borrow from
hearing Honor a talk about using sorrow songs to frame
her novel. Mini wants to share a part of a
Lucy Clifton poem that always speaks to me. It sits
in conversation with Honore's work, and it's also called sorrow
(29:17):
Song for the eyes of the children of Middle passage
for Cherokee eyes, Ethiopian eyes, Russian eyes, American eyes, for
all that remains of the children, their eyes staring at us,
amazed to see the extraordinary evil and ordinary men. After
(29:40):
the break, will be joined by Romanda Lark Young from
Ahogany Books in Washington, DC to talk about how she
created a space to make black books accessible. This week,
(30:06):
Romanda lark Young, owner of Ahogany Books in Washington, d C.
Gives us a little insight into the bookshops origin and
what books you need to have in your home. So
my Hockey Books opened almost fifteen years ago today, in
the middle of then what was a recession. But my
husband and I were looking for business ideas, something that
(30:28):
we really could feel committed to and connected to. We
landed at bookstore for a lot of reasons. One for me,
we want to make black books accessible to people in Oklahoma, California, Idaho, Iowa, wherever,
because we knew how transformative they were in our lives.
So it's been exciting, it's been scary, it's been off
the chain, but rewarding. You know, people asking us about
(30:51):
our favorite books often, and there are so many, one
as The Afro Minimalist Guide to Living with Less by
Christine Platte of course the sixteen nineteen Project. I feel
like that should be in everybody's home. Listen to more
of this conversation on the Latest Bookmarks, exclusively on pushkin Plus,
and be sure to check out Honore's debut novel, The
(31:13):
Love Songs of W. E. B. D. Boys if you
haven't already. In our next episode, we'll be joined by
tr Jones to talk about her latest novel in American
Marriage Well Read. Black Girl is a production of Pushkin Industries.
(31:34):
It is written and hosted by me Glory Dam and
produced by Scher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor
is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and
our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Mia
Lobell and Lee taal Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
(31:58):
Carl Migliori, Jason Gambrau, Julia Barton, Jen Goerra, John Schnars,
and Jacob Wiseberg. You can bind me on Twitter and
Instagram at Red black Girl. You can find Pushkin and
all social media platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can
sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If
(32:20):
you have a question, a recommendation, or you just want
to say hi, email us at WRBG at pushkin dot Fm.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industry,
consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast
subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four
(32:40):
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you're already a subscriber, make sure
to check out my exclusive Bookmark series. You'll hear extended
interviews with book club members, bookstore owners, and more. And
do you get to hear what's on my mind, What's
on my radar, and of course, what's on my reading
(33:01):
list each week. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app,
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